A Deep Dive Into Alcohol-Free Beer Culture And Craft Innovation

A beer arrives by DHL and we crack it open on mic: Lucky Saint Lime and Sea Salt Lager, zesty, lightly saline, and weirdly moreish in a way that makes you think about hydration as much as hops. From there, we go wide. I’m joined by award-winning beer commentator Martin Dixon, the man behind Alcohol Free World, who has tried well over 2,000 alcohol-free beers and helped shape how the UK talks about non-alcoholic beer.

We get into Martin’s story, starting with a 2009 Dry January that simply never ended, and the years where living in France meant “Red Bull and San Pellegrino” because decent alcohol-free beer was hard to find. That contrast makes today’s craft alcohol-free boom feel even bigger: more breweries, more releases, more experimentation, and more reasons to get excited about flavour rather than settling for a compromise.

We also talk about the community side of alcohol-free living, from group chats to real-world events like the King’s Cross alcohol-free weekender, where multiple alcohol-free beers on draught create the kind of choice that used to belong only to full-strength craft. Along the way we debate macro trends like fruited 0.0 lagers, the messy public understanding of 0.5% beer, and why some “0.0” options can feel like a brand trying too hard.

If you care about alcohol-free beer, low alcohol beer, craft brewing, tasting notes, and where the UK alcohol-free scene is heading next, this one is for you. Subscribe for more, share it with a mate who’s curious, and leave us a review, then tell us: what’s the best alcohol-free beer you’ve had this year?

For all of Martins reviews head over to Alcohol Free World on Instagram. 

To find out more about the wonderful world of alcohol free beer and to check in with me head to www.instagram.com/sober_boozers_club

This episode is Sponsored by Chance Clean Cider.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Martin Dixon

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome everybody to the Stuck for Boozers Club Podcast. It isn't free where this time we are not focusing on those that bring you alcohol free beer. We're focusing on the community of drinkers. In this episode, it's a pleasure to welcome British Guild of Beer Writers award-winning beer commentator Martin Dixon, the chap behind Alcohol Free World. He has tried over 2,000 alcohol-free beers, and he just so happens to be a very good friend of mine. It is a pleasure to welcome Mr. Martin Dixon.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Hello, sir. Good late morning to you. Five minutes to go before midday.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Yeah, yeah, it's f that's that's wild actually, considering we we were supposed to start this at 11. I mean, it's it's just that's just the nature of the beast, isn't it? I'm terrible for timekeeping.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

And all that all that all that great X-rated beer chat we've already thrown in that's only going to be available to the Patreon subscribers.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, yeah, if only there was a place for that was but must be a place that we can get that back. It's it's probably gonna be better than the actual podcast episode, in short. But never mind. If it was a just between us, ever most special moments, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

It's a pleasure to have you here. This is I think you will be the only guest that has been on all three seasons so far. Um and I can think of nobody better, quite frankly, because you won't say this, but I I am allowed to say this. You are the undisputed champion of alcohol-free beer, not just in the UK, but in the world, in my opinion. Um I'm saying that because I know that you won't. So there you go. That's your title from me to you.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Thank you, Ben. You are very, very kind. I see myself as a guardian and a sharer of whatever role I play now. It's a lovely community, people are sharing, people are building it, and I'm happy to play a part in that. And I look forward to the day when it's just so big and so worldwide and just so on a different scale to how it is now that that no person can claim any kind of ownership or status within that space. So if I can play a role in growing it to getting there, then I shall abdicate.

Live Tasting Lucky Saint Lime Lager

SPEAKER_00 2:17

It's funny, isn't it? I I've noticed this over recent weeks because I was very much for for the first few years of doing this, it was a beer would arrive and I had a video up the next day, once the beer had landed. Whereas now there's there's beers that I'm only getting round to maybe a month after everybody else on the internet in this community that is is flourishing, as already talked about. Um and I used to be the person that tried every beer first in the UK, every alcohol-free beer, but now I'm I'm catching up with with the young upstarts, if you like, because there's just so much beer that's landing. I've got a backlog of about three months, so I can't keep up with it. All these new arrivals. Speaking of new arrivals, before we break the ice and get into the podcast, I think we've got an exclusive right here.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Am I right? That segue, Ben, was so smooth. Thank you. Any anyone would think that you're a professional TV presenter.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

And that noise arrived 30 minutes ago by DHL. Let's hold up there. Is the new Lucky Saint Lime and Sea Salt Lager, which, thanks to it being a chilly April slash May overnight, meant that it arrived from the dead warehouse a perfect van cooled six or seven degrees. So just as we start, we're gonna crack one open and and see what it's like.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

I'm envious. I'm envious. I haven't I haven't ordered it yet. Pours up very nicely.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

I mean I could literally say 250 words about that part already. We'll know how this works. Yeah, it's definitely kind of zesty rather than fruity. The lime is more of the fruity. Yeah, more of the lime zest than the lime juice. I'll be very honest and say that in my days of drinking lager, sometimes with a shot of lime in it, if I'd drunk that back in the day, I would have suggested someone hadn't rinsed the glass properly and it had just a bit of detergent left in it, because it it there is a kind of there's a touch of soapiness to it. But that was my very first sip and a live first reaction. Okay. As I've said many times, beers are like puzzles to me, and my brain is now spinning around the electrolytes, and I can feel the slight salinity in there, and it's starting to make more sense. I'm not getting it the the detergent y thing is not there. That's what the salinity was tricking my mind into thinking. This is very, very drinkable.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Probably because I was at the gym this morning. Maybe I'm a tiny bit dehydrated, but I'm I'm like forcing this down without having to force it down because it's yeah, it's definitely tickling the rehydrate me button. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that that's gonna that's gonna shift units. It is. Yeah, flavour-wise, slightly limey lager, but the electrolytes I can definitely feel there's something here. So yeah, lucky Saint, that's my that's my review. Full review coming. But for those of you watching on video, I'm holding up the green Lucky Saint lime and sea salt lager. So kind of goza without the uh slight bit of sour.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

Okay. Yeah, I've got I I like that idea. Compared to the the lemon, does it feel like a natural progression? Because I I've I've found the lemon very, very well balanced, if I'm honest, for me. But if perhaps a little bit not synthetic, but it was more of a sweet lemonade than a than a bitter, cloudy lemon.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

Yeah, I lemon, lemon beers are such a it's such a difficult call to make because you are making them for not even a mass market, you're just making them to appeal to a it's logic, you make them to appeal to a broad range of to a broad range of people. And yet the amount of lemon, the type of lemon you use, it can present itself in so many different ways. And you only have to work in a pub in the era of lager tops. And I remember vividly having to remember how big the top various members of various locals in my pub wanted in their lemonade, or even bless him, who used to drink Foster's bottom. So you used to have to pour a certain amount of lemonade into the bottom of a glass, and then you would top it up with Foster's, and then you would present it to him, and if it was done right, it would be perfect. But if there was a new member of staff, you'd see his face kind of drop and he'd be like, Oh, can you just make it for me? I don't want to explain to him just like it's a lot of things. So there's so many there's so many different ways that you can just add lemon to make it to add lemonade to make it to someone's taste, that yeah, it's it's a it's a tough one to get it to where people are ever going to agree that it's it's the right amount. But this this one what I like about it a lot now, halfway through a can, is that you can really taste those electrolytes, and if you're as easily influenced and spend too much time on Instagram as I do, then you can't go through a day without pouring some weird sachet of blue crystals into a pint of water because hey, last year we were just drinking water and now we're drinking blue water that's vaguely salty and we're feeling better because of it. And that is gonna really tap into that vein. And I'm very glad I've got a 12 pack because I can drink beer instead of weird coloured overpriced blue water now.

From Dry January To Sober Life

SPEAKER_00 7:42

You know, on the um on the on the lager bottom, I can remember doing that. It w it was last summer in Tembi. I was I went away in Tembi and we went to a Greek restaurant um and they had zero alcohol-free beer. But they did have beer with alcohol, obviously. So I I don't know why I did this. I I ordered a pint of lemonade and poured some of the lemonade away and also ordered a beer and topped the topped the beer into the lemonade. It was it was actually revolting. So I'd have done better with just the lemonade, but it was just when you want a beer, that beer rich needed to be scratched. So a lager bottom I can confirm when it's done wrong, as mine most definitely was, is not a nice drink. We've just done your latest review, which feels crazy, doesn't it? This is the the the latest review that you have done to date was the Lucky Saint Lime with Salt. Let's go to the other end of the spectrum, just briefly, because we were talking before the episode about the community that is growing and it's growing year on year, even in our little online group that we have. There's about 50 of us now. And last year I think maybe, maybe there would have been half of that. So it's ever growing, and I'm aware that there's going to be people that don't really know how you got into alcohol-free beer, because you you live a sober life, but you didn't go down a route of addiction. You kind of got sober for for a different reason and found alcohol-free beer for different reasons to some other people. So, very briefly, for those of you that aren't aware, what did that look like your journey into alcohol-free beer?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Very quickly, I was living in France uh at the time. Uh I lived in France for just over 20 years between 2000 and 2022. And 2008 to 2009 New Year's Eve. I put a White Russian down on the bar at about four in the morning and turned around to a mate of mine who'd come over from the UK to celebrate New Year's Eve. And I said to him, I'm really, I'm really happy I've had that White Russian because I'm gonna do I'm gonna do dry jan this year. And yeah, I don't really like White Russian, so a really strong White Russian is a nice way of kicking off dry January. And I've done dry January before, it was okay. I used to enjoy drinking again afterwards, but this time I just didn't start again. And about three months in I started to get really stubborn and just go, okay, I've kind of got a streak now. Let's see if I can get through everything that I would in the past thought, God, I really need to drink at this. And then I just I just tick them off everything from first dates to weddings to stagdoos to gig whatever it might be, gigs. That was a big one. First gig I went to completely sober. That was like, oh my god, how do you get through a gig without a beer in your hand? I was like, well you go to the same gig, do the same thing, and don't put a beer in your hand. Ow. So I did that one. And then that was that. But living in France, it's what I describe as the uh Red Bull and San Pellegrino years. Because I still hung out in bars. I still hung out in the bar that was run by one of my best friends who's now my business partner, and there was just there was just no alcohol-free beer around. I mean, you could probably get Cronenberg something in a supermarket, but it wasn't very good, and I didn't want to drink it, and it certainly wasn't available in bars. So, you know, I would drink San Pellegrino, coffee in the afternoon, the occasional Red Bull if I felt really daring, but drinking Red Bull just used to ruin me. Um, and then I discovered alcohol-free beer in Germany probably in about 2012 when German colleagues of mine would invite me out for a drink and say, Well, we know you don't drink, but hey, there's alcohol-free beer here, and we drink alcohol-free beer sometimes, just drink it. I was really like, Oh my god, this stuff is good. Can't get this anywhere I live. That's a shame. And then probably about 2015, 2016, I discovered that there were some places in the UK that were selling German alcohol-free beer on import. And I started ordering it to the UK, taking it back to France in my car, so I'd have 36 or 48 bottles of Meisels Weiss or something. Sat in my cupboard in Paris, and I'd be rationing myself to a couple of them a week and just marvelling at how good they were. And that was really that was me an alcohol-free beer for for a long time. It was just something I did a few nights a week at home, and then when I went out, it was like, well, okay, I can't drink alcohol-free beer, drink water. That's that's fine. Um, and then I think during lockdown, I discovered some accounts that were putting alcohol-free beer out there. And when I looked at my own photos on my phone, I had probably a couple of hundred beer photos that I'd already been taking in various places in when I'd been traveling, I'd always take a photo of an alcohol-free beer and be like, wow, this one's not. I thought this one's shit or whatever it might be. So I already had the makings of an account where I thought rather than just one country's beer output, I'll put multiple countries' beer output because at the time I was I had one foot in the UK through family reasons. I had two feet in France, and at that time I had a foot in Sweden, seemed to be two feet in in Sweden. So I wasn't some five-legged animal. I was merely a two-legged animal with with Piedater in a few places. But it meant that I was exposed to the alcohol-free beer scene in multiple countries at the same time, and not just the scene in those countries, but the places that those countries could easily import beer from, because it was really easy to get beer from Poland, Denmark, Norway into Sweden. You could get beer from Spain into France, you could get stuff into the UK from different places. It was it was just an opportunity for me to do something a bit different to all the very sort of natural single country beer accounts that were that were out there, and that way an obsession started.

How The AF Beer Scene Shifts

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah, yeah, but an obsession is right, because you're you're thousands and thousands of beers deep now. But we look at that like the kind of shift from the dark days of 2015 to now, and that shift has been massive. But if we were to reduce that down to where we are now versus where we were when were when we last caught up in podcast form, that shift is equally, it feels monumental, and it feels like that year on year. So when we when we caught up last time to do this, gosh, I I can't even think when it would have been. It would have been Early May last year.

SPEAKER_02 14:16

So almost like that. Early May last year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Um and the beer scene really was it was thriving. And you know, it it it felt like oh things things can't get any better than me, surely. And it's felt like that every year I've been doing this personally. But you look at where we were last year. I mean, can you remember the the the key hitters from that time last year? I think we were in the very early days of the Mash Gang rebranding as it were, or it felt like we were. So they were kind of, you know, what's gonna come from that? That's potentially exciting. We could be friends, we're obviously doing what Sam does incredibly well and just releasing banger after banger. I think Nirvana were the brewery for me to watch at that period last year. They were doing they were making some real moves. But then you look at where we are now, it's ridiculous. So if we go back a year, where do you think we we kind of were? Do you think that we've s we've passed those expectations?

SPEAKER_02 15:13

I think a year ago we were still we were nine months into the grieving period for the end of Mash Gang's golden era. So for anyone not familiar with it, Mash Gang were for three years or so the they were the enfant terrible. They were the they were the entertainment and fun in the in the craft alcohol-free sector who were doing the stuff that nobody else was doing, releasing four different beers a month, subscriber specials, crazy strength, collaborations, all sorts of just mad ideas with a creative magnesium flair that that that shook the that shook the industry, it really did. And it it scattered original ideas and learning far and wide across the the craft industry because the spirit of collaboration was was was so strong. And last year when we spoke, I think we were both sort of feeling the well, that's changed, and what's going to replace that feeling because it had become clear that post-acquisition mesh gang were going to take a much more uh narrow product line focus, aimed also at logically attacking the largest market, so the US market. And that meant that what we had known wasn't gonna come back, we weren't gonna have four new beers a month and crazy beers like Brutalism or Pass Me the Heater that were so explosively hop strong that that they're borderline undrinkable. Anyone who uses Untapped regularly, look up MashGang Brutalism on Untapped because the reviews are the reviews are hysterical. It used to be the Amazon reviews of sugar-free Haribo used to be my uh my happy place to go to. The reviews of Mash Gang's Brutalism on Untapped are really are hysterical. I like the idea of someone staggering into a bottle shop and having no idea what they're buying and just thinking that they're gonna try alcohol-free for the first time and well, that's a pretty can, I'll get one of those. I'm just wondering what they thought of it. Yeah, this time last year, I think we we were kind of at the acceptance period of the of the situation, and we really were kind of looking and wondering who's gonna be filling that that space. Where was the buzz gonna come from? Where was the excitement gonna come from? And where I think we are now is that there is that excitement, definitely, but it's coming from more directions. It's not just my god, Mash Gang have dropped something, this is incredible. No, those days are over. And whilst there are breweries like We Can Be Friends, Sam is doing incredible stuff. And when he releases something, yeah, sure, that's got that anticipation moment to it. But equally, there's there's other exciting things happening, and the new beers that that you know, the the new track alcohol free that just dropped is like wow, you know, new cloud waters which are dropping kind of on a bi-monthly basis, that's another moment, like wow. Yeah, there's just you know, there's more wow to go around, and that feels yeah, that that feels significant because you know, it's better and a more mature industry if that wow is shared around. And let's not forget you know, the the UK craft beer industry that that that I missed because I didn't know what craft beer was, and I was in France and I certainly wasn't drinking it. So so it missed me. But the mash gang, you know, monthly release cycle and all the new beers and that that very much was UK craft playbook and is still how a lot of UK craft breweries feed the fandom and keep themselves going. It's through you know multiple, multiple releases and new exciting limited editions and all of these things that keep the inertia going. And that's very different to the full alk breweries releasing one or two alcohol-free beers. That's a different world. But now it seems that the full alk breweries are catching on that actually, if you want to build some inertia in the alcohol-free space, then make it a six to eight beers a year thing, make it a new one every six weeks, create something like the new track one where everyone or the you know the Cloudwater Fresh ver variants and have something that when a new one comes, already an audience people like go, oh my god, the new songs has dropped. Wow, that's going to be incredible. And that's the kind of that's the big change for me that we've that we that we've seen is that we're getting the you know, we're getting the fun and the excitement for more places now.

Divorce And A New Base

SPEAKER_00 19:47

And it's you you mentioned you're missing the the UK craft boom, as it were. Of course, this year, if you're if you're happy to go into this, this year you're you're now spending a lot more time in the UK because you've had, you know, a a personal change of circumstance, as it were. So you're not in in Sweden currently, but back in the UK, so exploring these beers maybe more so than than you were previously.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah, I'm happy I'm I mean I'm happy to I'm happy to go into it. My moving around and somewhat itinerant lifestyle might make me seem like I work for the security services. Some people have speculated, but I can absolutely deny that rumour. And just simply say that when we sat down to have our podcast chat last year, I was married and living in Sweden and every intention of remaining so. But several weeks after we had that pop podcast chat, my wife decided she didn't want to be married to me anymore. And in another time in another place, I could have described that as my wife left me, but my wife is Swedish and lives in Sweden, who even though it was unexpected and the ending of my marriage was not on my whatever the Swedish word for bingo card is in 2026. I was the one who kind of from one day to the next had to do the leaving. So I literally threw my fings in a bag and topped some more stuff into my storage locker, and then that was that was it really. So I'm still kind of moving around a lot. I spend time in France, I spent time in the UK. So I am now more in touch with the the UK scene than I've than I've directly been, which is yeah, which is nice. But I'd also say because of the the online nature of so much of what we do, doesn't feel like a it doesn't feel like a big shock to suddenly be in the UK or suddenly be somewhere that isn't Sweden. I still go back to Sweden and I'm still in touch with my my businesses in Sweden. Shout out the old brewer, Stockholm, two great pubs, one in Hornstul, one in Varsestan, if people want to. To check them out. So I'm still very much involved with them. But yeah, now spending a lot more time in the UK. And I wouldn't I I wouldn't be tasting Lucky Saint Sea Salt and Lyme so soon after it came out if I was still happily married and living in Sweden.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

So, you know, light and shade. I was gonna say sil silver linings. I'm not sure which one. I'm not sure which one I would take, but silver linings are you've got to find them where they where they exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Who wants married bliss and a future life of happiness versus easy availability of a new electrolyte-rich lager? I mean, things balance themselves out.

Why The Online Community Helps

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Jokes aside on that, obviously obviously we've talked about. Well, no, quite frankly. But we we've talked in depth about, you know, I'm also also a divorced man. We are we are now, you know, although we met through beer, you're one of my closest friends. Um we've had we've had conversations about this, but do you think that having a I don't want to say a purpose, but a little obsession, a little side hustle where it's like, well, I can talk about beer and I can really throw my attention into this? Do you think that made the process smoother? Not that it's ever going to be smooth, it's an undeniably turbulent time. But without the kind of beer community, do you think that would have been harder or is that kind of a nothing question because it's it's incomprehensible anyway?

SPEAKER_02 23:22

No, that's a that's a very good question. And there are certainly and there have been times in the last year where having a social space in the wide sense of the online term, having a social space where I can metaphorically go to that doesn't really have that hasn't really changed since my circumstances have changed. So it's still familiar, it's still consistent, the same people are there, I can DM the same people, I can get predictable reactions from people, but there is a definite comfort within that that space, which I will happily admit that I I would tap into that, maybe subconsciously when particularly last summer and I was feeling very low at certain times. I think it really did help to kind of have that that online space that without putting my hand up and going, you know, sounds like I'm on holiday, but I'm actually really struggling here, to be actually able to say, Hey, I've just found 13 fruit beers in the supermarket in Romania, and there's people in the world who are going to be a, let's use the term interested, by that, then yeah, there is there is certainly a comfort in knowing that that something something that brings me joy isn't totally a a solo pursuit. And when people say that they've found their tribe, it can be it can be a term that is slightly overused, but I I think it is incredibly valid because we are social creatures, and it is nice to find people who share your interest in discovering new things. And I've got some very close friends outside of the world of beer who I've known for 30 years, and I would have to explain what an IPA is to them because their lack of interest in it is is impressive. And you know, if I was to if I was to share a photo of 15 Romanian fruit beers lined up on a countertop in an Airbnb in Cluj, that would require so much explanation and would not leave them with positive views of me and wouldn't really give me any kind of dopamine hit from the thrill of having shared something which brought me some joy in the moment, and I would like confirmation that that joy isn't solitary. So I definitely find that within yeah, I definitely find that within our community alongside some you know deeper and more profound friendships. Obviously, I count our own in that, as well as others that I've made through this space. And that that's really precious because you discover that actually you're you're friends who were brought together by a common interest, but you also share other interests, and you know, it's regular, it's regular friendship, you know, it's your people who discover that you that you get on. And what is also glorious is that it is a chance to you might meet through a group chat, and group chats are really kind of artificial weird spaces because we're we're not equipped as human beings to to kind of process how group chats kind of work. We didn't start a kindergarten with parents around us going, um, you know, be nice to the new person who's come into the group chat. Maybe kids are doing maybe they're doing that these days. Maybe there's like junior WhatsApp groups where people are being trained and like the kids and the parents supervising them on how to behave to new people in the WhatsApp group or whether to take this offline and just tell this person they're being a bit too much. I don't know. Maybe that's what the kids are doing these days. But I wasn't trained from any of that. So a new person in a new WhatsApp group, and all the people kind of know each other, and there's a few in-jokes and stuff like that. That can be really hard because people can come across as not how they would be normally because it's a new group of people and they haven't read the group. And yeah, it it reminds me that that you know, this kind of digital friendship is something that we're all learning how to deal with and how to and how to process. And the fact that you can create really good friendships with with people who you know, you might not have immediately got on with them if you'd met them in person somewhere. But when you meet someone online somewhere in a shared space, that's kind of different. And yeah, it it's you know, it's it's something that's really good about these online spaces and how they can relate to real, you know, real offline friendships. And not every friendship needs to be an offline friendship either, because digital friendships are friendships, you know, these are you know, these are still real things which are going on. Whatever whatever format they take, how our neurons are processing them, apologies to any neuroscientists, and it's not neurons that do the processing, but but whatever bits of our brain are being triggered in whatever way, those bits of the brain that are being triggered, that is real to us.

The Alcohol-Free Weekender On Tap

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I I talk to the people in in our group chat more than I talk to my actual family. But I do find it funny sometimes for dynamic because it's you know, it I'm very proud of that that chat. I'm very proud of that space because it it feels like a space where we have people that can share some not only beers, but share some really heavy stuff about really struggling with certain events or really struggling not to have a drink because there's some people in ever that do have the disease of addictions, like myself. But what I find really funny, which is gonna sound like a strange tangent, but what I find really funny is when somebody will really offload something really heavy and we'll kind of we'll all chip in and kind of help get them through it. And then it could be hours later, someone will be like, I've had a really lovely peach beer. And when you read them without context and you don't see the time zone difference, it's just like, whoa, that topic's like, yeah. Okay, so you're at a wedding and you're considering drinking and you're struggling. I've had a really nice peach beer. It's just but I love that. I love that and I love it. Everyone seems to understand like their little agenda and their little objectives within this chat. But but you're right, it does stretch out further and it can branch out further. And we had a first hand experience of that this January in King's Cross, which was an event that I was so pleased that we could do together. With, of course, the wonderful people at Beer and Burger. That is, of course, the AF weekend of the first of its kind. That was special, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:55

It was was it was the largest pouring of alcohol-free draft beer in the UK under one roof ever, I think we can claim. But didn't we have we definitely had eleven lines pouring at one time.

SPEAKER_00 30:09

Yeah, I would say 100% outside of maybe festivals. But I I would I would argue probably even with festivals included, I think it was the largest pouring event that the UK has ever seen. So most certainly if we exclude festivals, it was. But yeah, I I think even including festivals, to be honest, because like you say, eleven, twelve different alcohol-free options on tap.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, and and one of my endearing memories of it was actually for for anyone who hasn't been to beer and burger store in King's Cross is a craft beer and burger venue that partnered with us to create the alcohol free weekender for three days in uh the end of January this year. And the beer and burger store have that kind of classic maybe you know, what was it, 25-30 tap setup of craft beers with them all on like a big display board behind the bar. And just for me to go to a bar and look up and not down into the special interest fridges, and actually be talking to a bar staff member and actually looking upwards and thinking to yourself, fantastic, I've just I've just had that one. I really I definitely want to have that one. But I just had that one, and that's really good as well. And everyone's telling me Verdant Psych is really, really good on alcohol-free, but that queer brewing one I had earlier is absolutely slapping, and I really and just to feel the anxiety of choice was just was just fabulous and so natural and normalizing. And the fact that it was in a space where there were 20 other alcohol beers on tap so people could come along to it and just, you know, as your guest from a couple of weeks ago, dear friend Tom Cronk said, he had a friend who discovered basically discovered zebra striping that weekend without really knowing it because he just drank some of the verdants that he really liked anyway, then then knocked back a couple of the alcohol-free ones because it was Tom's thing and he was there for it. So, and then the person next day was just like, I feel fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yep. It's funny that, isn't it? My highlight of that, well, let's say my highlight, but the kind of awakening that I had there was people coming up to me saying, Which one do you recommend next? And it's like, oh yeah, because it's not just one tap. It's not, oh, which one from the fridge should I go for? And there were plenty of fridge options as well, I might add, but it was what what beer should I get on tap next? And I I didn't make my way through the entire tap list. No, me neither. But there weren't there were too many, quite frankly. Do you know what my highlight beer was? The um Below Bruco stout on tap. Genuinely, because it it had been so long since I drank. Honeycomb. That had been a bit more. And I had a different Yeah, the honeycomb. And I had a different idea of what it was like because it had been so long since I drank it, that actually just sitting with a pint of it, it was like, that is very, very good.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, that was it it was it was so good, and what's so good is that different people could go to that day or one of those three days and have a different experience and rave about different beers. And when you and I can go to the same event on the same day and drink almost totally different beers after like the first one or two, and yet still be like, wow, I love this one, I like that one, I like that one. And I'm still I had Verdant Psych on tap the other day for the first time. And one of the reasons I had it was I suddenly thought to myself, Oh god, I didn't have that at the AF beer weekender, and you know, I really should have done. And that was great. It was also yeah, it was great to do a yeah, we did our first table tasting, which was which was really exciting to get a dozen people together, some of whom who are known to us already and are kind of big fans of of this scene, but also some just regular people, not that people in our community are not regular people. I would stress once again, these are exceptional, brilliant, lovely people, but when you know them already, it's kind of they're they're part of our extended family. But people who had really no idea, other than they'd just seen on a website, that there was this event taking place, and they liked the old alcohol-free beer and they thought they wanted to know a bit more about it. So, you know, they paid up for a table tasting session and absolutely loved it, and were just like, oh my god, didn't realise that that there was so much to learn, and didn't realise there was this weird beer that's tasted of smoked ham and the bottom of an old barbecue.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I was gonna go to the um the the Polish smoked beer.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Someone left with a bottle of that because that was his favourite beer of his favourite beer of the whole thing was that really smoked ham, strong Relsch beer. And fantastic. It just showed, but tasting that beer around the table, it was funny how many people actually started by going, God, that's horrible. And then as we kind of invited them to let it hold in the mouth a bit longer and just kind of live with it just for a little bit, you then realize that it's actually a bit more of a kind of a brown ale. It's a lot more kind of like a Sam's Brown. It's got that smooth, slightly sweet brown ale taste to it, and that ham forward it's a line I never thought I'd say, but that ham forward flavour, all kind of smoky bacon and ash from the barbecue, that gets put to one side once you're kind of over the shock of tasting that in a beer. And and that was that was great with the table tasting as well, because you know, it it gave people a chance to kind of consider their own taste and opinions on stuff rather than just go like, oh god, that's not really me. Because then when you're sat around with other people and they're take it a bit slow and you're being told to just ignore something and think about you know, you actually you can establish that that link with your own taste buds, which is why I love it when I read people who are writing quite expressive reviews of beers and maybe who've just started to put up reviews of alcohol-free beer. Because in this very digital world of which I'm very, very proud, I also know that the reason I write in large quantities is because I like the I like the feeling of creating something real and tangible through words that relates to something that I have tasted and sensed also that is real. So it's something, even though expressed in digital form, is something which is very analogue. It is, what is this liquid in my mouth? What am I experiencing? How do I understand that? And can I express it through words? And that for me is as analogue as, you know, that's as analogue as knitting or crochet or or or any number of things that people might do to escape the digital world and be in a more mindful, analogue space. And for me, that's what you can discover through tasting beer and trying to write, trying to write it down. That for me, that's that's clearly that's my version of knitting. And that's why I do it, and that's what I get from it. And I love it when I when I when I see people who are who are starting to do the same sort of thing, because it's just it's very wonderful to just be connecting up how you taste something to then how you you'll form words to describe it, and then get more accomplished at putting all that together. But it's just like it's getting better at knitting, he said, doing a knitting needle. You can tell I don't knit because that did not look like knitting. If you're if you're looked like some very it looked like some very weak drumming or a footballer in a Glasgow derby trying to bait the crowd on one side. Yeah, it's very it was very it wasn't knitting anyway, but you get my point.

Beer Of The Year And Brewing

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, it it makes it makes complete sense. I think when you are when you are so enamoured with with flavour profiles and when you are so committed to well, as you said earlier, it's a puzzle. It's a little bit of a brain puzzle figuring out and picking out different elements about each beer. And speaking of picking out elements of beers, there was there was one beer that we desperately tried to get pouring on tap at the AF weekender that we couldn't. It is, of course, your beer of the year 2025, and here we have it. Well you tell me about this.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

We can be friends collaboration with Track Brewing, the very fabulous Lark, and I am pouring a can of it now because it was a very late entry in terms of beers I tried in 2025. I don't think I tried it until kind of the third week of December, but it is an absolutely fabulous beer. I'm gonna pour one up now in a fresh glass. This is wonderful for everyone on podcast.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

Envious of you that you have a can of this.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

It's looking perfect. Yeah, it's still smelling absolutely fantastic. And the without going into all the boring detail about this one, but one of the reasons this one it's it won beer of the year for me and a massive score of 94 out of 100, is that I knew from the moment I tasted it, I knew something special and kind of strange was going on because I described it as like a beer souffle because it just had an incredibly tiny bubbled mouthfeel, and it really made the hops kind of pop. So it delivered so much hop bang, but it there was no hop burn, and this it all just felt it felt like it felt like new stuff was going on. Um when I chatted to Sam from We Can Be Friends, he confirmed some of the tricks behind it, which I understand involve carbonation via headspace pressure, where you put the CO2 into the sealed tank above the beer, and then using some Henry's Law physics stuff, it then uses time to then get the CO2 into the beer, and so it comes out creamier and fluffier, and it it's just an absolute triumph. I'm toasting the camera now, making you very jealous, Ben, but it is yeah, it's just a glorious beer.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Yeah, it's undeniable, isn't it? It's undeniable. And when and we talk about this quite quite a lot in in the chat, you know, Sam uh we could be friends, he is he is famous for pails and beers like this, but they're all a completely unique beer, aren't they? When you really start to delve into them. And I think that is a very difficult thing to do. No two beers are the same.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Well, I don't think I'm betraying a confidence that I met Sam in person at the first time at our uh AF weekender, and I was immensely touched that someone would turn up and not just turn up for a couple of hours, but but stay almost the entire day and be incredibly generous with his time and chatting to lots of people as well. But he also he said that his big aim for for this year is to it's not to keep doing the greatest hits of Sam Ray and just turning out wonderful beers using different brewing equipment. His aim was very much to work with new breweries and and say to them, okay, like you know, what what's your signature beer style? What do you what do you stand for? What makes people like your beers rather than rather than someone else's? What are you trying to make? And then he'll help them make that beer. Yeah, I hope there are I'm pretty sure there are going to be some more examples of that coming. But one of the best beers I've had this year is his collaboration with Burning Sky, Low, which is it's a glorious beer. Yeah, it's absolutely it's an absolute glory and it's got it's got something different. As you said, it's not that similar sort of fluffy southern hemisphere pale. It's more of a kind of yeah, it's a you can't describe it without using the word earthy, but yeah, it is, it's got that like a slightly earthy, spicy quality to it. That it's just yeah, it's wonderful, but it's very different to Lark, even though there are some similarities in the the texture and the composition of the the beer, which do make me link to what do make me wonder to what extent there might be some some process similarities there. But it's just great to see Yeah, it's just great to see originality and new ideas still coming forward. It's fabulous.

Fruited Lagers And The 0.0 Debate

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? I think I think we're we're going through really nice experimental phases at the moment with alcohol-free beer. It does feel like the the craft boom is in full swing. And and on that, in terms of macro, because we've got to talk about macro as well, because they're important players in the game, whether you like it or not. A lot of fruited lagers making their way into UK supermarkets from macro brands at the moment, but also craft brands having a crack at the cherry. Do you think that the fruited kind of lager is gonna be the story of 2026? Because I I've said my take on 2026 at the start of the year was 2026 will be the year of alcohol-fruit beer on tap. And I think that is happening. But then when we break down into styles and new styles coming out, do you think that fruited lagers are of a one at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Definitely. When I was in Central and Eastern Europe last summer on an extended I needed I needed to leave Sweden on very short notice on one of the busiest holiday weekends in the year. Uh, and I'd been told that I really shouldn't be in Sweden for a day longer than I should be. So I really had to try and literally get away on a random flight to anywhere, and all the flights to anywhere warm were insanely expensive. So the the only flight I could find that was reasonable at short notice was a 30 euro flight to Gdansk. So I I set off and and flitted around Europe. For a bit from Gdansk as an initial base, and Gdansk is a wonderful, wonderful place to go in the summertime as well. There's a beach resort. It's fantastic. But also, there were so many new macro fruited beers around. And in particular, Heineken have some really, really interesting fruited beers leaning into traditional Polish culture and folk recipes. And there were ones involving quince, and there are ones involved there's some really unusual flavours. And I actually ran into someone from Heineken, Poland, who was explaining their push into alcohol free, and explaining that Poland was a was a big market that they were that they were expanding with the fruited macro offerings. And then I saw in Romania and then in Germany, I saw similar new macro fruited beers really dominating. You'd see 14 or 15 different ones versus three or four regular macro branded AF lagers. So there is certainly a there's a degree of tastes are different in different countries, but I think the large breweries are definitely they don't need lessons from anyone in terms of studying their market segments, looking at the power of certain brands and certain styles within certain groups, and they are the absolute masters of tracking trends and where possible kind of leading trends and all this. So it is no accident that we've now seen the two fruited peironis on the market. So that is a Sahi Europe for anyone who isn't aware of the family links between these. Heineken have now got the two there's the one that you enjoyed the other day, Ben, the uh Elderflower.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

Yeah, Elderflower lemon tasted like a beer tastes after you've just cleaned your teeth. Like do you know the other one? The nectarine, peach nectarine, I think it is. Nectarine juniper. That's for one. That's actually pretty good. That's actually pretty good. I will drink that before. And it was actually the smell of it was rancid, it smelled like cat food. But when you drink it, actually and I I attributed the smell of it to the Heineken Zero Lager desperately trying to break through. That's what that's what you could smell.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

The juniper though makes me makes me think of you think of gin and adding gin to drinks, which trigger warning for anyone who doesn't want to hear this sort of thing. But I had my with nail and eye phase a long time ago, and one of my best friends and I would regularly quote with nail, and one of our favorite lines was two large gins and two pints of cider, ice in the cider. And we were at a gig once, and we were that we were there with a a couple of Swedish friends of ours, and we bought the tickets, and they were just like, Okay, we'll we'll we'll get the drinks, we're going to the bar. What do you want? My friend turned around and went, I'll have two large gins and two pints of cider. Ice in the cider. And then we were expecting her to laugh or do something, react in some way. She didn't. She just turned around and headed off straight to the bar. And we looked at each other, we were just like, Oh my god, like this is gonna be interesting. I wonder what we're gonna get back. And she came back with two plastic pint glasses from the bar and just went, I couldn't carry the gin, so I got him to just pour them in. And we just took like one pint of strongbow each that now had a double Gordon's in it, and we were just like, Okay, this is gonna be uh this me novel. Thank you. Really like tried it, and actually, pint of strongbow with a double Gordon's in it, not not the worst drink, not the worst drink ever. The dryness really cuts through that strongbow sweetness, which I don't really like. Got a little hit of juniper in it. In terms of gig, in terms of gig juice, you don't have to go to the bar too often, getting a lot of a lot of bang for your plastic pint buck.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah, when it comes to gig juice was none better.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, so so I do think that you know, maybe Heineken were were were tapping into that that with nail spirit of adding of adding gin to your drinks.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

God, yeah, that must be that must be it. But no, that that one, not bad. The lemon one, just unredeemable. Unredeemable. It was terrible. And you know I'm a critic of Heineken anyway.

SPEAKER_02 48:19

But I do I do think that if you everything has to get bigger, everything has to show growth, everything has to expand, everything has to be you know, a ascending segment, everything has to be moving forward. And I'm sure these conversations are taking place in these macro breweries who are looking at all sorts of indicators showing that, you know, beer uptake and brand familiarity within certain key demographics and all these other buzzwords, you know, as as time moves forward, they are it cannot stand still. So they're gonna have to keep trying to find ways that are going to get that product out to that new extra group of people that's gonna give them that more growth. It's the dark fruits audience, those people who don't like cider, never drank cider. But when dark fruits suddenly became everywhere, you got a load of people suddenly drinking strombo dark fruits because this super sweet whatever it is has suddenly conquered a whole new group of people who didn't think they like cider, but they like this stuff that doesn't taste like cider. And that is what the fruited macro stuff is is doing because it's not it's really not trying to convert us and people like us to drink to drink that instead of drinking the other beer that we'd rather drink. It's not about offering more choice to people inside the tent. It's the people outside the tent, and you want you you want to give the choice that makes them step inside the tent.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

Yeah. Yeah, no, I I completely agree. I wonder occasionally if Macro started coming along a little bit too early. Um, I think this is kind of a chicken and egg scenario, but I can remember when Heineken Zero launched, and it was huge, and it was a really impressive and really innovative thing, and you know, with Guinness doing incredible things as well, and all of these 0.0 beers that invested so heavily on reverse osmosis kits and de-alcoholisation kits before beer brewed to strength to be 0.5 was was any good, really. I wonder if it's a bit of a like if if Heineken decided to brew a beer to 0.5 and brew it to strength, it could probably do a very good job at that, I would have thought. And I wonder if it's just a case of, well, we've invested so much money into this dealization that we've got to run with it. Whereas actually the other method produces a much better liquid. But then I suppose you've got stability issues and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

A lot of it is you're very right. A lot of it is about I'm sure a lot of it is about building a moat from a commercial point of view. And you know, the the amount of money it requires to get the very latest Dialk technology, yeah, that that's your barrier to entry if you're trying to make 0.0. Plus, you know, the tweaks flavor-wise, which are which are done by Guinness to add some, you know, a little bit of extra Guinness flavor back to the fact the way that Heineken you know Heineken famously they add some Heineken essence to Heineken Zero, and it's one of the things that I don't like about Heineken Zero, and I've said it many times, but it is it's a broadly okay beer, and it smells like beer, kind of, and it tastes like beer, but I can tell that it's got an artificial beer flavor, it's got Heineken flavour in it, and I can tell, and it doesn't taste right at the right times. So when I try it, I'm just it's like a piece of music which is just wildly out of tune because I'm just like, okay, I shouldn't be tasting that bit there. It I no, you're lying. It's it's lies in a glass, and sometimes I can overlook that if it's on a if it's really cold and it's served in a pint glass on draft. Yeah, I know I don't hate it, hate it. Yeah, you can manage one. Yeah, but but you know, I was shout out the mall tavern in London where I was last night, and I knew they were broadly pro-alcohol-free beer because it's run by the same people who run beer and burger. So shout out to you guys. And the mall tavern had Rot House Alcohol Free on draft, and Rothouse is one of the highest scoring pilsners that's that I've ever reviewed. I think 94 out of 100, I still rate it as as one of the best beers of all time. And they've got it on tap, and it was absolutely glorious. I had four pints of it. It's just yeah, it's just an absolutely marvellous beer. And I guarantee it that if I was on the Heineken on tap last night, I would have had one and maybe even moved somewhere else. But as it was, I was there with a mate, neither of us were drinking beer, alcohol, beer with alcohol, and we had eight pints between us. Yeah, it's not in bed, isn't it? Yeah, we were and we were far from the only people drinking it as well. It was absolutely you know, it was it was flying out the taps to other people as well. So it's great to see. But if you if you if you put that sort of product in front of people, then they will drink it by the by the shitload. But you're also right, I don't think the macro breweries want to push 0.5 because the barriers to entry aren't there. I know you've tried the 0.5 brewed to strength made by Asahi, the Asahi Beery. Yes. That's available in Japan. Yeah. That's just a really bloody good macro lager that's brewed for strength. Phenomenal. It was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

And it's just I I've I've seen I've seen how the other side live. And it was absolutely sensational, that asahi um beery. And it was, it was beery. Um but then I wonder if there's because there's misinformation, obviously, about 0.5% that we don't need to preach to anybody that's listening to this, but in case you are, you are new, 0.5% beer cannot get you intoxicated. It's got as much alcohol as orange juice. People think 0.0% is alcohol free and 0.5% still has alcohol. Scientifically true, but in terms of a real life scenario, it can't physically get you drunk. But I wonder if there's a bit of that as well. You know, macro being unwilling or unable to educate people to 0.5. And it's kind of like, oh, we we can save ourselves a headache. Let's just do a 0.0. That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

Yeah, definitely unwitely uh unwilling and I would say it's a deliberate strategic ploy to reinforce the moat and you know keep people in the in the darkness of disinformation and in a place where they hesitate between a 0.5 and they want a 0.0 because also if you're big if the 0.0s aren't as good, then you're less likely to switch over almost permanently. Whereas if the 0.5 is really just like honestly, I can't tell the difference, and uh the rothouse I would defy people to to tell the difference is so good. There's gonna be a big drop-off in in habitual uh beer sales and habitual beer drinking that is you know, it's the lifeblood of uh the macro breweries is you know, it's the people who drink you know, tens of pints per week. Yeah, that that's a lot of uh that's a lot of what is driving sa you know, and I would I would say that the people who convert volume for volume from alcohol beer to alcohol free beer are very much in the minority. So I would say if you have someone spending a hundred pounds a month on inBev products from the supermarket, if they go completely alcohol free, I would suggest that they're probably not spending a hundred euro on bets a hundred quid on Bex Blue when they when they go alcohol free.

New Standout Beers And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Hope not for her own sake, my god. What a sad little life that would be. That would be But you're right, you are completely right. So that's I I'd say that is that's kind of a bl a bit of a bleak outlook on on the world of macro. But I think the world of macro, it I think it will get better, and I think it it it can get better. But what is exciting you as a whole right now in 2026, at the start of May? What's really exciting you at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 57:09

What is exciting me? Things that have excited me most this year. Trying the best Hellas lager that I've ever tried, which I did recently. So Pegan Sear Hellas. I I almost have I'd say I have no words to describe it, but anyone who saw the 600-word article that I wrote on Instagram knows that that's not true. But it was a beer that was so good that when I was reviewing it for the first time, I poured it up and I literally brought the glass to my nose and I mentally wrote 500 words almost instantly based on just how that smelled. And I was I was ready to rewrite the review if that wasn't the case, but I actually put in the review, okay, from how this smells, I have just got hundreds of words in my head because I know what this is, and I know what's going to happen next, and I already know it's going to be wonderful. Which obviously I would have changed it, it'd turn out to be shite, but it isn't, and it is so glorious that even after how many thousand different alcohol-free beers I've had, that one still stood out because it's just it's an absolute wow beer. So it really is. Yeah, and that that for me, to get that excited about a beer just from how it smelt when I poured one out for the first time and just took a drawer off the top of it, and I'm like, wowzers, that is something special. And the fact that that is yeah, the fact that that's still happening now is really exciting. It's for a kind of old, it's not super old, but it it's it's a challenger brewery because they're not one of the big five Munich ones, but there are people in Munich who will say to you that the Teggenzir regular beers are better than any of the stuff from the Munich places, and it it's got that kind of yeah, we can do anything they can do, and people in the know know that our stuff is better. But I think they only released it last year, and I got a few DMs from people in Germany like recommending it quite hard, going like, well, okay, you like that hellas, do you? Honestly, try the Tegans here, it's it's it's really special. Yeah, and it it is it is fantastic. And I'm sure, Ben, that you're gonna link to all of these various beers and uh places that we're we're mentioning in the in the comments because I really would like people to be able to I would like people to be able to track these down. And I also know that that a lot of the beers I get excited about and really, really like, I know that you are bringing to the world in your subs box.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

I guess.

SPEAKER_02 59:47

Yes, thank you. Which is it's the it's like a beer selection that whenever I see it, I think to myself, yeah, I'd probably have chosen those. I'd have chosen those. I'd have chosen those.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

My job is done, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:01

That's all I could wish for. And I know I also I know that you are trying to it's proactive, so you you do actually hear about beers and then you try and get hold of them for the box rather than someone just sending you a list and going, Okay, this is what you choose some from these. You're actually doing the some of the legwork and going, This would be really exciting. Let's see if we can actually, you know, let's see if we can get this one for it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yeah, that was that was the important thing for me doing it like this was actually being able to, you know, obviously I have my list of beers that are arriving, and it's like, Do you like the look of any of these? And there's certain ones where I'm like, yeah, yeah, that one looks great. But then all the other ones, like the the big one that I'm really trying to get is and it's for me, it's personally for me to be able to drink it, is the Recraft Rose Tea IPA. Because I adore that beer, and I think it's a nostalgia thing because I've I've been reading articles actually recently about rose in beer and how people don't think it works or people do think it works. For me, it was just nostalgia in a bottle, and I've actually got this there's somebody I'm speaking to in Poland actually that owns a bottle shop that purchased 12 bottles of it for me, and we're currently trying to figure out the best way for them to post it to me. I mean, it wonderful, wonderful of him to obviously I'm gonna pay for them and pay for postage, but thanks to uh good old Brexit, it's um it's a challenge, as I'm sure you're kind of trying to navigate now.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Yeah, Polish I had I had some really, really great connections to Poland that used to be really easy to ship to Sweden. Um I'd get stuff I'd taste Polish stuff and get it up for a review even before on the null.viv had tasted it and put stuff up. And I've been in touch with places since I've been spending more time in the UK and I've said, you know, can you ship to the UK? And and places are like, nah, you know, then we don't ship to the UK, and it it's yeah, it's it's difficult. It's difficult. But that that that rose tea beer, I I I remember it, I remember it well because I saw actually saw that in Gdask Airport when I was thoroughly sick of fruited beers, having just tried nine of them in my hotel room the night before because I was flying with hand luggage and I was desperate to kind of get beers reviewed. And the next day I'd woken up with that kind of I've drunk too much macro lager feeling, and I really wasn't feeling in the mood for new macro lagers or new anything. And then there was a Brower Recraft fridge in the lounge at uh at Gdansk Airport, and it had several alcohol-free IPAs, and it had the rose tea IPA in the fridge. And I'm like, okay, this is just this is just strange that that there is a beer that I've never heard of and never tried, and it's in a fridge in an airport. And I tried it, and it it is, yeah, it's one of those things that just really probably shouldn't work, but it it it it it does work. It is it it you know, it it's good and it's it's it's wonderful that you're trying to bring that to more people. And if you could put that in a subs box, that would really get people.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

Yeah, that's that's the dream. That's the dream. We are working on it, on getting it over. But just really exciting to be able to deal with all of these beers and to be able to to be surrounded by all of the beers and all of the people in the bit the alcohol-free beer scene because it is it is frivolous, and that is in no small part down to you and the work that you are doing. As I say, you are you are one of the founding fathers of alcohol free. And as I said at the start, that's not just in the United Kingdom, that is, that is in the world. So thank you for everything that you have done. Thank you for for continuing to be a beacon of light in the otherwise dark corner of the internet that is macro alcohol free beer. And thank you for shining a spotlight on all of the incredible beers out there, and for being a wonderful human as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

That's so very kind, and I'll I'll reiterate again without dwelling on my own circumstances. It does give me such immense pleasure to have this digital space, this this let's call it an alcohol-free world. There's an idea. To have this alcohol-free world which I can inhabit, which brings me so much joy and brings me connection and brings me interest and brings me so many things which are important to me that you know it it really is kind of my it's my happy space. So, you know, I see it as nothing more than, you know, somewhere I'm glad to inhabit and really happy when I'm here. And also, yeah, I I I want to share I want to share this space with as many people as possible. So, yeah, I really like it whenever I see anyone writing new reviews on social media of beers or writing articles about alcohol free on Substack or whatever it might be. I'm like, this is yeah, this is fantastic. I want as many people as possible doing it. So, yeah, it's I said earlier, for me it's my knitting, and I want other people to discover the you know, the analogue joys of knitting in this this digital world that we that we live in, because for the moment, drinking beer is still very much an analogue pleasure. You know, last time I checked, Chat GPT cannot taste beer. So maybe that's coming in the next iteration, maybe 5.5 will we'll we'll crack that one. But for the time being, Ben, you and I are better than AI tasting beer.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

I will toast to that. Thank you very much for being a wonderful guest as always. I'll I'll probably talk to you like, well, in the next five minutes, as I do, pretty much consistently throughout every day. Thank you for joining me. It's been a pleasure, sir.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

Cheers, Ben. Cheers everyone. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

That's it for this week's episode of the Sober Boozers Club Podcast. My name is Ben Gibbs. You can find me on all the socials at Sober Boozers Club. To check out some of Martin's fantastic reviews, head over to his Instagram page at Alcohol Free World. Honestly, what he doesn't know about alcohol free beer isn't worth knowing, quite frankly. I'll be back very, very soon with another fabulous guest. Until then, dear friends, you take care.