Ep. 70 | Stop Drinking the Startup Kool Aid - Crisobal Cortes

Cristóbal is a Panama City entrepreneur behind Degusta, a restaurant discovery platform, and he now focuses on a B2B reservation product. He walks through the building from B2C into B2B, explaining why WhatsApp is a real competitor in LatAm, and how treating marketing as a science and prioritizing retention features actually moves the needle for restaurants. The conversation becomes tactical, focusing on unit economics, making the case for lifetime value over broker-style one-offs, and validating the approach with sales before pursuing funding. Hiring across borders, educating the local market, and spotting Panama’s under-marketed tourism upside round out the playbook. It closes with a clear ethos: avoid idea worship, ask sharper questions, and let the best product win.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/cristobalcortes/?originalSubdomain=pa

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Transcript

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Welcome to Shakin’ Hands, where we provide the platform for entrepreneurs and thought leaders to share their stories in order to hopefully influence others to get out of the rat race and chase their own dreams. If you have any recommendations for guests or questions that you want to be asked, please don't hesitate to reach out. Anyways, if you enjoy the podcast, please like, comment, subscribe and share in order to keep the podcast growing. Otherwise, I'm your host, Jack Moran and this is Shakin’ Hands. If you're looking for business mentorship, I have a place where you can get feedback on your unique personal development and business growth challenges. Over the last year, I've brought together a group of impact driven thought leaders where we meet every single day to discuss psychology, communication, mindset, and business case studies. We have people who have made millions of dollars, lost millions of dollars, Harvard MBAs and new entrepreneurs like you and I. Entrepreneurship can be lonely. So if you're looking for a support system, please follow the link in the description below for some more information. Let's get started. Tell me about yourself. What's your business? Well, I have a lot of businesses. But I started basically to business at the same time. We started, a restaurant with our family 15 years ago. And at the same time, I was building. Something that is very similar to what, you know, Yelp. It's called the. It's, it's basically the most popular restaurant got, reviews and reservations, site on Panama. So we tried to expand the technology to a or the company to other countries, but at that time, we didn't know anything about marketing. So we learned the hard way. What's this knowledge of marketing and the importance of marketing? My competition knew a lot of marketing. And they raised like 20 million. We raised 250 K. So they crush us internationally. We stay here in Panama. Later on, I have founded several businesses. We found out I founded, private security company, security guards, but I put technology on, on them. So, we grew very fast. That was 2016. So all the security guards or basically the industry was doing the same. And I saw an opportunity with a partner. That knew a lot about the industry. So I put some very, very basic technology, actually, but it was for the clients was like, this is awesome. So they change for the agency, but that business is not very attractive. So, I sold most of my participation there. In after the pandemia, we had, like, a very small competitor here because they got is like a review and reservation site, but we have a very bad like software for reservation. And these guys, they did have a very good technology. So, in the pandemia, they just broke. So we bought that technology. And that's very interesting because we, we, we came from the B2C and now we're in B2B. And it was I really like that product is like a son for me. But after so many time, so much time, you kind of get bored sometimes, especially if there's not so much room for innovation. And they also was getting to that point that there's not there's not too much innovation we can do about, research guide, you know, so we decided to or I decided because they also sell in the market and it's still the most popular restaurant site in, in Panama. But I decided to focus my energy on reserve, which is this B2B very good platforms for restaurant management. We're competing with OpenTable in Mexico and we're already in like 20 countries in Latin America. So like it has like this international scope that we want it to be allowed to go to in the first place. So, right now I'm building something else. It's like a, a host for restaurants, because in Latin America, there's a lot of WhatsApp usage for reservations. If you have been to restaurants, if you want to order something or make a reservations, the main channel here and most of Latin America is what's up? So my main competitor in reserve actually is WhatsApp. It's not like other platforms. Well, so where if that's a monster to go up against. Yeah. So, it's very difficult to change people behavior. So if I cannot change it, well I'm going to join it, you know. Yeah. I saw what going to try to do our conversational AI to help them to make reservations, because it's very exhausting for them to answer every day chats from thousands of people every month, you know? Yeah. So they're very tired of doing it manually. Sundays, in the mornings, people start chatting 7 a.m. to do our reservations. And most of these chats in early in the morning, they don't get any answer, you know? So we're trying to solve that problem right now. It's a lot of wasted labor. Yeah, yeah. The owner of or one of the early founders of WhatsApp, his yacht was just in, Charleston, before I left. So they're doing pretty good on the revenue front for him. They have a yacht that big? Yeah, it's a huge presence. How do you deal with competition? Like, what is your strategy? To get ahead of competition, I, I've heard you say if you can't beat them, join them. That's one is like acquisition or merger. But you know what? If it's a more, you know, combative front or you have to beat them out, how do you, position yourself ahead of them? Get ahead with the I want to talk about, especially with, reserve, which is my main focus right now. And what do we have done there is like, I don't I don't think restaurant owners see much difference on on the software per se. It's like open different types of software. We have a software. There's not too much room to innovate on, on, on the management side of the software. So you have the Or for planned your reservation here. But we have what I remember I talk about marketing, you know, so in the US once we understood the importance of marketing we started marketing like crazy. It's like or spend two years perfection in and learning a lot. So we took a lot of like courses map for app and how do you grow and how do you grow a company. But for the marketing inside the app, what's kind of strategies you can do? So, what business owners or especially restaurant owners is like, they don't have to they don't have time to market themselves. Usually they hire an agency, but they their budget is very limited. Their agency shows are not great. So it's it's way more easy to make a customer come back that always try to bring new customers. So it's also very cheap. So what we have built in, in, in re survey is like all these marketing features that help restaurants to, to bring people back. So we're always checking what the competition are doing. But we are basically the only ones that are focusing on this marketing. And basically this kind of features is what we're that are helping us grow, basically, because nobody's like everyone is focusing on management, the, the basically the reservation management system. But we're like, okay, let's let's help restaurant bring these people that already came back and these it's very simple as like as the rest of the customer for their birthday, once they come, or or behavioral psych very like it's like if I do this to stay in touch for think about this strategy. So for e-commerce, like I miss you to carbonated but the same with the reservation. I, I did a sauce operation, but then I cancel it like I remember you like a remarketing outbound. Certainly. So very basics like for e-commerce. But nobody's doing it for reservations. So basically that's our like key point. And we are we're doing it right now by for email. But nobody's reading the email, at least in Latin America. I know in the US it's different, but people are reading WhatsApp here, so we're integrating WhatsApp. So and it's working. It was it started like a hypothesis. You know like I have this hypothesis that if it works for e-commerce, if it worked for the USA, it should work for a restaurant to this to make this remarketing, based on behavior and data that the customer is giving you. Have you always wanted to be an entrepreneur? I think it's at least in, in, in in Panama, if you ask a Panamanian, probably 80% of them are going to tell you, like, my goal is to be, an entrepreneur or have my own business, I think it's very like, in the mindset of most of the people here. But there's a difference between thinking it and doing it. I had an opportunity, and I took it. It was a huge risk. And it's a huge risk 15 years, after, you know, every every time I do a new business or, you know, this is very cyclical. I think in, in my head was I, I want to do entrepreneur, but, you know, I had an opportunity. None of my business are actually my idea. The new one, which is called will be. This is actually the first idea I have. All of the other ideas was my my brother, my other brother with the other restaurant. So, but I'm very good, like, seeing problems. So, once I got the first idea to do the gusta, actually was my brother was living in Argentina and saw something, a restaurant guy there. It's like, hey, do you think we can do that in Panama? And I had an an experience here that I wanted to try something new, but I couldn't find it. That's was 2010, so no iPhones, BlackBerry, internet. There was not too much blogging or something like that. So I took the risk and I just build that with any knowledge on developing apps or platforms or anything. So I've always been curious on the strategy of apps like this that require by in to be successful. Right? Like if you it's not like you can be successful with just having one restaurant on your platform, right? It says it's in our industry. It's a chicken and egg problem. It's very hard. It's it's very hard to start actually. What does the goose a similar to job. We include all the restaurants for free in the platform. So it's not that we have to affiliate them to be in the platform. So you start a database them. Yeah, I took the car and I drove every street in Panama finding restaurants. So that's why that's the way we started. And actually I, I didn't like do an all in at the beginning. It's like I keep my, my I used to work or as a broker, investment broker. So I kept my, my job, at night, on the weekends. I worked at Gusta for the first two years. Then we we got some traction, but it was very organic. Restaurants believe in the projects, like, okay, my my pitch was like, if you if you ask any customer, how was it everything. How is everything? The usual number, the usual answer is everything is okay because nobody wants the conflict. Yeah. Usually, sometimes it's not okay. And this is a very good way to understand what is okay to keep doing that. And if it's not okay, change it. So, restaurants believe in that, pitch. They started adopting it, promoting it. So here we we we grew by word of mouth, basically. But in other countries or bigger countries was way more difficult. We didn't know how to market. And you need a lot of dollars to market this kind of marketplace, so I did we didn't understand that equation at the beginning. You said that you guys did a lot of research on marketing. What were the biggest takeaways that you learned from that research? And from those courses you guys were taking? We took a course called reforge. At that time, it was very expensive. Now you can get it, like for $100 a month. Next year I should have where it is now, but it it it was like, marketing as a science. It's like, read the numbers. What kind of numbers or what kind of goals we we needed to impact. Actually, one of the biggest impacts I, I got when we were basically broke and we started growing very fast. I, I'm a professor and I do some teaching, and non-university at a private teaching. Okay. And on this is an investment, thing. So I was with a student, and I ask her, like, do you say gusta? Like, yes, of course. And I ask her is like, do you do reservations? Like, no, I never I look up the phone, which was highly hidden in the middle of the scrolling, and I call the restaurant and I and the reservation bottom was there all the time so people didn't see it. So we changed the layout and immediately it started like of taking uptake like 10% the next month. It's like, okay, let's do it on the website. Okay. In the same. So, let's hide the phone number under like, calling bottom, another 10%. So, sometimes small things can have huge impact on these kind of platforms. I could call to action, different color, a testing everything. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But hearing the customer basically is one of the most important things that you can do as an entrepreneur. Yes. Listen, you have one mouth, two ears for a reason. That's actually. What's the biggest challenge that you've encountered to date as an entrepreneur in Latin America? The most difficult is people, finding good talent is very tough. Why do you think that is? Education, education? People are not well-educated. So in Panama, it's very hard. It's very hard to find good people. So, for example, we're switching to Colombia right now, most of my new hires are in Colombia. So nothing against Panamanians, because I love to have my Panamanian team. Most of the my team in the Augusta are Panamanians, by the way. We needed to train them a lot of years to get them where they are now. But if you want to scale, you don't. You can have juniors, you know, you need people with experience. And I think that face of hiring juniors, it was okay when you were studying. But right now I, I want to hire people here. To give you an example, the other day I put on LinkedIn to hire a community manager. I had the the posts on LinkedIn paid for one week. I got 99 CVS. Right. From an idea I selected, 11. I sent them an email with a test, before interviewing. We have a, like, a system to hire people. And before any interview, we send them a test to see if the if they are really interested in working with us, you will do a data test. We already received one test. I do the same with Colombia. I have in 24 hours. I received 450 CVS. We send them 60 tests. We receive 40 tests. So I will have very good quality. So here we have we have a very talented people. But if you compare it with the Colombia, the dedication, you can see the education, the education system is, has done very, way better job than here. You said you have a system for hiring. What does that system look like? Well, basically, we put, the announcement on LinkedIn. Usually we have, we try to tell people to look like a cool company is like, so yeah, because if you want to hire a good talent, we tell them, like, what's our mission, who we are as entrepreneurs and basically what they have to do. The rest is basically the same, but but the main part is our mission. And who we are. Okay. And our values basically. Then we review all the CVS, and usually I don't read them. I just focus on a structure. It's like, okay, you can see it right now. I see I go to structure and I don't need to read them to know that that people, that person is very competent. So from the once I like the structure of the recipe, we do an Excel with with their information and send in an email. In this case, since we're a startup and our budget is limited, usually we ask them a couple of questions, but for us in this kind of stage, one of the main question is how much do you want? Do you want to, what was what's your aspiration for a salary? Okay. So, usually they're on the range, so if you are not on the range, you are not gonna be able to hire, especially for developers. Sometimes they they got we got like ten years developers, we can pay them. Okay. So we have to go through for 4 or 5 years, experience. Right. So once they once we do that, of course not. Not everybody responds. So usually like 80, 90% response. So then it it doesn't matter if your developer or designer or any job jump. You must do something for us. At least if you are a salesperson, filmed yourself sent and tell me how you just sell whatever you want. For this community manager position is like, send me a video of the top three things of whatever you like. Because I don't mind, Larry. I don't want them to think that I'm going to use your video, your design for my advantage. So do whatever design or video or whatever you like. Yeah. Okay. So then my job is like, check this video. If if they are good, I'm gonna interview these people, but my funnel is like from 400 goes to five six interview max usually when we don't do more than six. But that saves a lot of time. Have you always lived in Panama? Now, I was born in Chile. You're born in Chile? Yeah, but I got here at 12, so I'm Panamanian. So where do you think the biggest opportunities lie in? In Panama. In Panama? I think there's a huge gap in tourism. For example, I think there's a lot of opportunities in tourism. If you go to other countries, you see very sophisticated ways of managed tourism. If you go to Mexico, for example, they're very organized around tourism. I think there's huge opportunity to develop tourism here. If you go to Costa Rica, which are selling like they have all these jungles and or these places, and you came here, it's like, no way, this is way better. But they have sold the world that they have this incredible place. Like once you work here in Panama, we have the same, even better infrastructure. You have the city, which is great. They don't have the city and we have all the same things, but they have sell very good Costa Rica. Yeah for sure. And I see I've asked this question to each guest that we've had on over the past two days, what the opportunities are in Panama. And your business is where I see the biggest opportunity, which is the consolidate the digital consolidation of businesses, because as someone that is from the US, for instance, when I came here, I wanted to find a yoga class. Yeah. So in the US, if I'm traveling for work, if I travel down to Miami and I find I want to find a yoga class, yeah, I am going to find 100 businesses within a three mile radius that offer that service. But what I've found when I come to Panama is there. The digital real estate is wide open. Yeah. Like you search things on the internet and you don't get the answers that you want, which is not a problem in the US. So I think that there's a massive opportunity here in Panama and probably a lot of emerging markets where data basing those services, if you can be an authority or a source of that traffic, that databases, those services that are offered in a location, and it doesn't have to be all services if you, for instance, picked yoga and data based, those, you know, yoga businesses and become that stream there, some sort of affiliate brokerage model that you could do that is like low capital. The thing that the market is very small. This is what this is one of the disadvantage of Panama, that there's only 4 million people. If you get into how many people can have access to those services, the market is very slow. Basically, it's like five miles around here. That's it. So, they also doing that, for restaurants because this is something you do very often. The thing is, once you got that yoga class, you're going to know the lifetime value. It's it's done. You know, you find it, you make a broker or fee and that's it. No lifetime value because they're just going to go jumbo. Yeah, I will say, and this is very Latin, you know, that's why we don't have like a these plumbers, or electricians kind of apps here because you don't have lifetime value. You got the good plumber and you ask them for their phone. Right. And that's it. I'm most of the people that had that that they saw that opportunity. They didn't understand lifetime value, for example, because they're not in that industry. I bet someday someone will figure it out how to bypass and not get the plumber to have the problem. And the other problem is that the plumber, once they have one phone number and the next day they have another. So it's very like, yeah, there's a lot of problems in this kind of market for that. That's super interesting. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. That's super crazy. I didn't even think of that. What do you think is like. The so for instance, like I have realized, I see just like the digital space being a big opportunity here because we ran ads for, one of our developments that we're doing in the Zero Peninsula and my cost per lead. Yeah, was so much lower. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like two bucks. Three bucks. And it seems like people aren't running those ads or they're not like, I don't know why. It's I think it's way less competition. People maybe, or businesses probably. They don't understand, how many leads they can get with, these ads, I idea they see us expensive. And that's one of the reason I have grown some of these companies, because what I give away when I started, like the private security company, no one was doing ads. So I was the only one, maybe another one, but very bad ad, you know? So I build a good, webpage, with, good ad and it was Google. People were looking for security guards. So we grew from 0 to 200 people in like a year and a half or something like that. Well, yeah, something else that I've noticed just being here for a short amount of time that's interesting. That's different from the US, is that whereas the US may pay a premium for convenience here, it's like all price driven. So if someone would rather take the responsibility on and do more work themselves. Yeah. To save money. Yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, that's totally true. And that's affected a lot of businesses. Yeah. That's very it's very different. Us it has to be the, the people don't earn as much as the US hero. Yeah. So yeah, they, they're very price sensitive. If you crash your car and you can do it yourself or have, very low budget like mechanic, you're going to hire that guy. So, yeah. This is these are. And Panama is, if you compare it with other countries like Colombia, Colombia is totally price driven. You can have two things for it happens. I don't we don't have too many clients in Colombia for example, when our platforms you know we it for example our platform platform is way better than the other one. But sometimes $5. That's it. They're going to the you want to choose the cheap one. So we've talked a lot about the limitations within Panama in business. What do you think are the attributes that make Panama a good place for business to do business? Well, I think it's a very if you're in tech, for example, it's a very good place to test because it's is small market. If you interested in if you are going to make some mistakes, it's going to stay here, you know, so you can test the market pretty easy and fast. The bad thing is that's very small market. So usually but one of the thing good things about Panama as an entrepreneur is that usually people are always thinking abroad. So if you're going to meet people, they're always thinking like, okay, I'm going to do this here, but if it works, I'm going to sell it in other places. So, that's why you have so many like, good entrepreneurs here because they're selling their products outside the country. As a veteran entrepreneur, what is the most common flaw you see in new entrepreneurs that's holding them back from being successful? I call it them to do the work, basically order. I think this in English to say like, the homework, basically, and what I made into Ponerse, one of the main things I ask is like, okay, who else are is doing something like you are doing. It's very uncommon that you are inventing. They will, always someone thought about your idea before and try to build it. So what I tell them is like, if it doesn't exist, there are two possibilities. Or the idea is so good now nobody has thought about it or is so bad that already people try it and failed. So, it's very hard that in this world today, you're going to find someone that hasn't thought about the idea you're trying to build. It's very hard. So, basically they they don't do research enough when I build. They used to spend four months just doing research. I'm thinking about how it could be. I, I saw probably all the reviews on restaurant guides around the world Asia, Africa, Europe, US. And I got something from all of them and build the USA, which was like I thought was good for a Latin American market. But people are, aren't doing that like research. It's like I have an idea I'm going to execute it. So, people get in love with the idea. Sometimes we call it drinking the Kool-Aid. Yeah, yeah, and that happens in every market. But it. What fails people here is doing their homework. They don't do research enough about what they're trying to build. And it can be easy to kind of, like I say, drinking the Kool-Aid. It can be easy to be seduced by your own idea and make the justifications within your own head that it's going to work and ignore the red flags. And I think that's why it's super important to surround yourself with like, a board of advisors to be able to tell you, you know, don't go down this path and you're wasting your time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Like what, general, do you think you, you know better, you know? Yeah. For sure. So everyone, me included, it's like you need to have the ego, you know, to have the confidence. But also you need to suppress the ego. You're going to run into a and usually we're learning the by the way, you know. Yeah. Making huge mistakes that cost a lot of money. But, do you think anyone can be an entrepreneur? Yeah, I think I don't think you need, skill sets or. Of course you need a some skill set, you know, but if you have the passion, the inner, the energy and the focus and, of course, you need to understand very important the problems. I think anyone, anyone can do it. It's not rocket science. If you took away the new entrance, it's not going to be more intelligent that you, That's what something else for people to understand. Anyone? It's not like, super more intelligent than you. It's just whoever you call for minds. Yes, exactly. It's like very common people with, mindset of let's do it. I have failed many times, but I never let one of my business get broke. For example, I'm going to find a way to make it work. Which you usually do, turn things around through all the ups and downs that you've had throughout your entrepreneurial journey. What is the single most important thing that you have learned that you would give to one of your proudest predecessors or mentor as like a single piece of advice that you would give for to whom a new entrepreneur getting started? That's a good question. I never thought about that. You should, if I have to choose one. Just listen. Just listen. The market is going to tell you. Your client's going to tell you, but people don't want to listen. If you ask the right questions, people are going to tell you if it's good or bad. But people get in love with the idea and the things that are. But you can not listen to everyone, you know? For example, we have this restaurant, for 15 years, people, they tell us to put pasta on it. It's a pizzeria. It's not a Italian restaurant. We do have pasta, three plates, stuff, but, but, people wanted pasta. It was a betrayal. They they didn't understand our business. So sometimes people get it. Some people don't get that. But if you got if you got a good concept. But we have learned to listen like, okay, there was a couple of pizza that people did, like it. It was acquired taste. It wasn't like a by pizza. It was like acquired taste. People didn't like it. We lose it. We probably will lose some customers when people were trying that, actually, we saw a couple of reviews on the US that people complaining about the pizza was not good. So we decided to take it out. So I don't think it's too hard. It's like build something, ask people what they think about it. Modify if it's if it makes sense. That's it. Yeah. I think that's really important advice. Like, a lot of people spend so much capital developing a product before they take it to the market, where, you know, I think it's a lot more valuable to go out to that marketplace first and say, like, what is the need? What is the problem? What does the marketplace want to see? And then developing that reverse engineering it from the product. All agree from that for. So for example Wolpe we have been working on the on it two months now. We're a very small team. As soon I have the AI agent working, I'm going to start testing it, you know, see if it makes sense, if it works, trying out, asking some people for feedback. I'm. I'm not trying to build the perfect product right now. And every time we try to build the perfect product, usually it wasn't perfect, but because people didn't want that. So our mindset now is like. Let's make it simple, very basic, and learn from what people are telling us. Improve. You said earlier that you enjoy mentoring. I love it. So there's a lot of people out there that are, and it's a common theme that we see within our audience is people are looking for mentorship. But I'm curious to hear from your perspective, what are the qualities that a person demonstrates that that tells you this is a good person that's worth mentoring? Why? What about someone makes you want to mentor them? I like to mentor people that they they really want to, get the feedback. They say me when I'm a teacher, you know, when I teach, because someone the bank paid the guy to get my course, and they're not interesting. Actually, in learning, I get bored. I don't like to do that kind of classes. The same with mentoring. I like to do mentoring people that are interested in learning and changing the things that I'm showing you on as a mentor, usually never tell you what to do. I just showed you the path and it's like, if you have a pricings, problem, I'm not going to tell you what the what is should be your pricing. I'm going to send. You're not one. Cool. You read that and tell me what is the problem you're having? You know, but as I said, if I send you to an article and you never give me feedback, you're not interested in learning and changing, and probably your business is going to fail. Oh, interesting. Yeah. What final question. What is your definition of success? I think. I'm trying to find the right word, but, freedom. Basically freedom to do what you want to do. If you want to leave early, you can do it. If you want to go traveling and go to a sports game that you like, you can do it. I think freedom is the perfect word for me at least. How do you obtain that freedom as an entrepreneur? A lot of entrepreneurs have a big difficulty removing themselves from that business. What's required to get that freedom as an entrepreneur? Don't get me wrong, I don't have freedom right now. I, But, sometimes I do, you know, it's like I can have the freedom, but I it it comes in expense now, actually, it's it costs, it's difficult for me to, to have like, that liberty and go early to my house. And I'm always, like, trying to learn something or read the next article or, it's hard for me to have this freedom, but I aspire to have it soon. I should I I'm try to, make a balance. And I've been trying to do that. But, what was the question I forgot, what is your definition of success? Yeah. Freedom, basically. Yeah. The, the as entrepreneur, as a lot of us can be guilty of getting stuck on that hamster wheel where we have this, like goal of being satisfied in the now. But when we get to that now, we want the next. Well, that's what that's what happened with with the loser. Probably it didn't it wasn't a challenge anymore. Yeah. We grew. It's enough. For some reason it was no more a challenge. And I really like challenges to make things grow from zero to whatever. Have the best product in the market. I'm very passionate about being the best in the market. I really like that. Yeah. Even if, I mean, not the biggest one, you know, but having the best product is something that motivates me every day. Giving the best customer support, having the best products I really like. I like to have that. Well, that's a very important value to have to have a good company and a successful company. So it's great that you prioritize that. If people are interested in your services or wanted to reach out to you. They can they find your connect with you. They can send me an email. Crystal Aurora harvey.com or send me a WhatsApp. You don't have to put your number up. You don't want to do that. Just. Oh, I can, All right, all right. Sure they can. They can send me an email. I love to mentor people. I really do. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you coming on. It's been, very interesting and inspiring. Thank you.