In Their Shoes: Understanding Depression from the Inside Out with Pamela J. Wells

Episode Description:

What does depression actually feel like from the inside, and how can the people who love someone through it truly help?

In this episode, Cristina sits down with Pamela J. Wells, author of In Their Shoes, a powerful, thin-by-design book that weaves together the stories of multiple people who have lived through depression, created to help both the person suffering and the people who love them understand what's really going on.

Pamela shares her own journey through three years of deep depression, four hospitalizations, a suicide attempt, and ultimately a full mental recovery — and how that experience inspired her to write a book she wishes had existed when she needed it most.

This episode is a compassionate, honest conversation about what depression is, what it isn't, and what we can all do better for the people in our lives who are struggling.

Get the book: Amazon Canada | Amazon US Also available on Kobo, Barnes & Noble, Chapters/Indigo, and most online book retailers.

Connect with Pamela: Facebook: Understanding Depression Instagram: @pamandzuri TikTok: @pamfromcanada Threads: @pamandzuri

Please note: This episode is not a substitute for professional mental health support. If you or someone you love is struggling, please reach out to a qualified mental health professional.

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Transcript

Cristina Loureiro  0:00  
Hello, lovely souls. Welcome back to the Awakening to Your Soul Self podcast. I'm here with Pamela Wells, and she's going to talk about her book called In Their Shoes, and it's to educate people on depression and how that feels, and how to help, and what not to do about depression. And I just want to prefer that I am not a professional or medical help, she's just going to talk about her book and experience that she's had. Welcome, Pamela. Thank you. It's good to be here. So, I always like to start off with all my guests, is tell us a little bit about yourself and share your journey to get to this point. Okay,

Pamela J. Wells  0:39  
was around 2008 2009 thereabouts. thereabouts, that I went into a deep, deep depression. My husband had some health problems before that, but he was getting better. But the stress of everything, I think, just sent me plummeting down. He went for a quintuple bypass surgery on his heart, so yeah, it was major, and there was a lot of complications afterwards, and I definitely rose to the occasion, and I was there for him and helped him with everything. I did everything I was supposed to do as a wife, and I love him, so you know, I wanted to do this for him, but when he got better and the pressure was off, it's like somebody pulled the plug, and I just went, all my energy just went out, and, and that was the beginning of three years of deep, deep depression,

Unknown Speaker  1:29  
and my husband did not understand depression. Heard him, like he's made some negative comments regarding depression in the past, and I just knew he didn't understand it, but when I, when I got depressed, I mean, he was definitely there for me. He was very supportive, so no complaints about him that way. He just didn't understand, so he learned. And then he, I think, at some point, he got really frustrated because it was like, what can I do? Like, yeah, men like to fix things, you know, and he couldn't fix it, but, like, what can he do to help me, and I just said, you're doing it. I mean, you're holding me in your arms, you're loving me, you're just being there for me, you're being my rock. I said, that's what I need the most right now. So, I said, you are doing it, but he was still frustrated, feeling like there was more he could do. So, as I got better, oh, I should add that I did attempt to take my life towards the end of the three years thing hit an all-time low, where I just felt like I was never going to beat this thing, so I did attempt suicide. It's just all I can't say is, yeah, it was the worst time of my life. Obviously, I didn't succeed,

Unknown Speaker  2:39  
I was mad at first, but eventually I did get better. I got through it. It was a very difficult time, but I did get through it. But when I started feeling better, I got the idea that I needed to write a book helping others to understand what depression feels like. But everybody's story is unique, so I didn't want my book just to be about me. I started writing a book about myself, and I just thought, well, other than the people that know me, who's going to really want to read this book, like my life story? Who am I? So I thought, I'm going to interview people I met along the way. I did exchange email addresses with quite a few people. I was hospitalized four times, and you spend a lot of time together with some of these people, and there were wonderful people in the hospital there. Like, I, I was terrified to go the first time, because I thought only crazy people are there, but most of them were just depressed and needed some help, like me. So, my hospital time was actually very good for me. It was very peaceful and forced me to come to a stop, because I'm the kind of person I was always busy, I was always doing stuff, and that forced me to stop, and I think that's what I needed, but then you know, later I did attempt to take my life, because I just felt like I am never going to get rid of this thing, but obviously I did, I got better, I interviewed several people, I sent them all a list of the same questions and ask them to answer the questions just as best they could, and then I put them together with my story in this book. It's very thin book, as you can see, because anyone who's depressed is not going to pick up a big book. I know if somebody had handed me a thick book, I would have been like, "Yeah, thanks, and put it away. This is nice and thin, it's a very easy read. So I wrote it for two reasons. One is to help the depressed person feel seen and understood, and after reading this, they're going to realize they're not crazy. It's an illness, like if I announced to my friends that I was diagnosed with diabetes, people would be very compassionate and understanding, but when you say you're depressed, people will get uncomfortable with that. So, some might roll their eyes, others just think it's sadness, but it's so much more than just being sad, so much more. So, that's for the depressed person, they'll get something out of this book, but so I also wrote it with my husband.

Unknown Speaker  5:00  
It in mind for those who don't understand depression and want to understand what it's like, understand what they can do to help and what you shouldn't do. There's a lot of things people say they mean well, you know, they mean well, but, but can really hurt. So, yes, snap out of it is the worst thing you can say, because if we could snap out of it, well, goodness, no one enjoys being depressed. You would snap out of it if you could. And what one of the comments my husband made

Unknown Speaker  5:27  
that made me sour is when he said, "Good grief, this was not towards me. He said it to a story we were watching on the television, and he just said, "Oh, good grief, just talk yourself out of it, and that's what made me think, "Okay, I can never talk to him about depression, because he doesn't get it. But we did eventually talk through everything, and he's been

Unknown Speaker  5:47  
has and always has been very considerate, and he's a good guy. Anyway, I can cristian all day, but anyway, so I wrote this book, finally stories questions. I asked them all the same questions. There were some people that couldn't handle a list of questions. Everybody's different, I get it. They just sent me a couple of paragraphs summarizing basically what they felt they wanted to share, and I said that's fine. I put that in the book too. There were there's a handful of people that didn't want to deal with the questions, and I said that's okay. And after I asked all the questions, my final one was, is there anything you want to share that hasn't been addressed in these questions? So, there's quite a bit of information in here regarding depression, very helpful for anyone who wants to understand what depression is like. It's not just being sad, and if you know, or if you care about someone who's depressed, you really should read this book, because it will help you understand what to do

Unknown Speaker  6:46  
and what not to do. Yeah, and I also want to just add a little tidbit in there that if you need professional help, you need to seek that professional help. Oh, sometimes you need that. Absolutely, I think therapy can be at everybody could benefit from therapy, so 100%

Unknown Speaker  7:00  
Yeah, so there's no shame in going for therapy. I think in the past there's been a lot of jokes about going to therapy. I mean,

Unknown Speaker  7:10  
yeah, I'm older than you, but I remember when stuff like that was made fun of. Nobody wanted to go see a shrink, you know, that was just a negative thing, but the psychiatrist that treated me when I was hospitalized was actually really great. He was very nice, and I never had an issue with him. I mean, he was really good to me. The only complaint I would say is that he was quick to prescribe. I was on nine different medications when I was depressed, so it

Unknown Speaker  7:37  
was, yeah, it was a lot. Even when my daughter visited, and she looked at the pills, and she was, 'Mom, this is crazy. And I said, 'Well, I'm obedient. Okay, that's the way I was raised in an abusive home, but it was also very, very strict, and I was always taught you don't question authority, and you always be obedient to authority. So a doctor to me is an authority in my life, and so I always did what I was told, but when I was getting better, and I went to him and said I would really like to lower my dose, and he was like, "Oh no, absolutely not, you need to stay on this.

Unknown Speaker  8:11  
I was like, "Okay, you know, I agreed, and I did stay on it for the next six months, but you're dealing with all the side effects too. Anyways, I eventually did without him. My husband and I worked at it together, and it took several months, and I got off all the pills. I would never tell anybody else to do this. Do not go off your pills, please. Talk to your doctor. I mean, it can be very dangerous. Just stop in your pills, you have to do it right. And I did it because I knew inside I was better, and by the time I got off the pills, I just felt better and better. So mentally I can say I'm healthier now than I've ever been. That's good, but physically not so much. In case you haven't noticed, I'm laying down right now in my bed because I have a very painful nerve condition that developed, I think, two years, I think after the depression or so

Unknown Speaker  9:01  
I developed an odd pain, and it just kept growing and growing and getting worse, and so,

Unknown Speaker  9:08  
yeah, this is.. I want to make a point here. This physical pain I'm in, I can't sit without pain. So, my traveling days are over, because being on an airplane is a nightmare. My last trip was in 2019

Unknown Speaker  9:21  
I went on a trip with my sister and daughter, and it was wonderful. We had a great girls trip, but that plane ride was an absolute nightmare, and I was fighting back tears through the whole thing. It was like a five hour plane ride, and I can sit for about 10 minutes, I can't sit more than about 10 minutes. So, yeah, that was rough. I ended up turning around, going on my knees, but then keeping my head down, so I wasn't staring at the people behind me, but anyhow, it was rough. So, yeah, my traveling days.. sorry, I get sidetracked easy. It's okay,

Unknown Speaker  9:50  
I believe that anything comes up is meant to come out okay. So, yeah, this this condition is quite painful, and it really affects my life.

Unknown Speaker  10:00  
So one day my daughter asked me, like, my kids are adults now, they're grown, but my daughter asked me, "What's worse, the depression you went through or this condition with the pain? Because she couldn't fathom the amount of pain I'm in, and I said, "No, the depression was worse, depression 100% worse, because when you're depressed, you don't find joy in anything, and you have to fake it all the time. I got good at wearing the mask, you know, the mask of it. Yeah, I'm fine, except when it got really severe, that mask slipped, and I think I think anybody that knew me knew I was depressed. So, nobody was surprised when I was hospitalized. But anyway, this is why meant me, we need to talk about mental health more than physical health, and I think if we address mental health earlier, like I'm saying in kindergarten, in every grade should have age-appropriate mental health discussions and tools for the kids to know how to handle their emotions and that kind of thing, and I think if we did more of that, we'd have less physical illnesses, because depression can lead to a lot of other problems. So, yeah, I think mental health is so important, and it's been swept under the rug for too long. Yeah, I do have to say, my daytime job is working in a school district, and we, there is a lot of emotion talk. Oh, good, all grade levels. Now it's been a long time since my kids are in their 40s, so it's been a long time since I've been involved in the school system. So I'm really glad to hear there is something like that going on. That's awesome to hear. Awesome to hear, because there was definitely nothing like that when I was growing up, right? So I have a couple questions for you. What was the turning point that helped you find your way out of the Declaration, was there like a specific moment, or did you just have a feeling, what really was it? Well, I don't want to come off sounding really religious, because this book is definitely for everybody, but what happened to me is after the suicide attempt, my pastor, my pastor of our church came to see me and asked me if I really wanted to beat this thing, and I lied and said yes, because at that point I just wanted to die,

Unknown Speaker  12:12  
but you know, sometimes when you're depressed, you just tell people what you think they want to hear instead of getting anywhere else, so that was just, yeah, sure, I want to beat this. Well, anyways, he said he heard of a group that prays over people like me, and they've had great success, and it's about a two hour drive. He said if I wanted to go, my husband too, of course, that him and his wife would come with us. So I said yes, because

Unknown Speaker  12:37  
I was at the lowest point of my life, and I figured if something doesn't change, I already had plan B in my mind of what I would do next that would work better. So we went to this place. They had no idea who was coming. They knew a woman was coming, that's all they knew. They didn't know my name or anything about me, so they just sat, me and my husband, in a two chairs, and they were in a circle around us, about 12 people, something like 10 or 12 people around us, and they just prayed silently for me. And then after they prayed for about 15 minutes or so, while we just sat there and waited, then they spoke up and said what told me what they thought God had told them. They thought for me it was more of a spiritual issue than anything else. I mean, depression can be caused by many different things, but they prayed over me quite earnestly, and when I left that place, the weight of the depression wasn't there. I felt I felt very peaceful, and it was the next day that my husband said, because I didn't know for sure that I'm better yet at this point, I would just know that I felt very peaceful, which was really nice, because I hadn't felt that in a while, but my husband the next day said, Do you want to do something? Do you want to go somewhere? And I said, I want you to take me to the mall, because the shopping mall, because when I was, when I was depressed, I hated going to the mall, because the lights, the noise, all the people, I couldn't handle it. It was just too stressful for me.

Unknown Speaker  14:04  
So I said, 'Take me to the mall. I just want to see what it feels like, and I was fine. I walked through the mall like I used to, and I'm a very talkative person. And I, yeah, with I will chat with anybody, like strangers, anybody that's standing in line, I'm talking to the person in front of me, and then I involved the person behind me, and

Unknown Speaker  14:23  
all just very talkative. My husband really, he says he loves that about me, that I talk to people so much, which I wasn't like that when I was depressed. But that day at the mall, I was back to my old self, talking to people, and it was like, okay, something happened in that little prayer circle that changed me. So that worked for me. It's super powerful. Yeah. Thank you. The person who led that group has, after I, when he saw that I had published a book, he messaged me, and he said, if I know of anybody that wants the same circle type thing

Unknown Speaker  14:58  
prayer meeting, that he's open to.

Unknown Speaker  15:00  
At which I thanked him profusely. That's wonderful, but depression can be caused by other things too, because I have seen people go through the same prayer circle thing, and it didn't do anything, so it's not for everybody, and I don't push that for everybody. With some people, depression is situational, like same as a woman I met who her husband had just revealed to her that he's seeing somebody else and he's leaving her with her two small children, he's just going to leave her. So she was understandably very depressed. Now that's what you call situational depression, because eventually she will get over that. She needs some help, of course, but with some help, she'll get through it. Her depression is every bit as valid as my depression. That's not like one is greater than the other. I don't put them on a scale, but hers was treatable a different way than mine was. Some people have seasonal depression, with some people it's genetics. So, you know, I can't tell you. I wish this is not a cure. Just make that clear. This book is not a cure. I wish it was, but it's a tool. It's a tool that you can use, so beneficial that way. But, yeah, that's how I got out of depression. I just want to touch upon prayer, because I find that prayer is very powerful, it's very profound, but it does not work for everybody. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  16:21  
so my other couple questions I have here is, in your book, you include stories from other people that you met on your journey. Yes, and did any of the stories teach you anything? Did they teach me anything?

Unknown Speaker  16:36  
I gotta find a little passage. There's one person that was very good at feedback. How many stories did you end up receiving? You know, what I didn't count them. Well, you must have enough to make a book, right? Yeah, I mean it's a thin book, but I mean, because there's there's the ones, all the ones that answered the questions, and then there's a bunch at the end. Yeah, I should count them.

Unknown Speaker  16:58  
Okay, here's his name is saying I changed all the names, so the names in the book are all changed, obviously. One question I asked, what social situations are difficult,

Unknown Speaker  17:08  
and this guy, I love his answer. He said, I found large gatherings difficult. I felt a duality. On one hand, I craved them as an opportunity to find someone in a crowd who I'd matter to, but the other half of me, however, at that moment I was in the crowd that I'd shut down inside, become the class clown to gain approval, and no one would know that I was anything but the computer nerd in a goofy sense of humor, with a goofy sense of humor. This guy is very witty. If that didn't work, I'd end up in some corner, pretending to be interested in a potted plant or some mildly interesting piece of tech. I was afraid people, I was afraid people, I was afraid of people, because I knew what I became around them, not as much as I was afraid of them, but because of what happens to my emotions when I'm around them. When I'm alone, I feel alone, empty, and bored. When I'm around people, I felt alone, empty, and constantly under the stress of my own yearning for something, some connection to matter, to be recognized, or something more than a resource, something more than that guy who could fix the stereo. Who could make the computer virus go away? Who could recite odd Star Trek quotes or the Major General's song from The Pirates of Penzance? He goes on, I'll stop there, but his responses were so great that it's just,

Unknown Speaker  18:38  
you don't think about what it's like for a depressed person,

Unknown Speaker  18:42  
when you're in a group at a party,

Unknown Speaker  18:46  
so yeah, that kind of taught me to pay more attention when you're around people, and if you see somebody that just seems a little bit, I don't know, alone or like no one's talking to them, go over and talk to them and make help them to feel more comfortable,

Unknown Speaker  19:01  
me, that's just, yeah, something I hadn't thought of myself before, so different perspective too, yeah, yeah, no, I like his responses to all the questions, are very good. So, anyways, I've invited, interviewed quite a variety of people, they're not all Christians, definitely, because I didn't want this to be just for Christians, some of them have different faiths, some of them might have different lifestyles or different races too. I didn't ask questions about who they were, I just knew they were depressed, so I asked if they would answer my questions. So I figured, whatever their lifestyle is, it's not.. it's none of my business. Well, that's amazing that you,

Unknown Speaker  19:39  
you took the lowest point of your life, and you turned it into a book, and included other people, and almost got a little guidebook for others who haven't been around depression and don't know what it, yeah, what it feels like. I honestly think this book would be a great for a group study if a group wanted to get together and do it together, but that's just a thought.

Unknown Speaker  20:00  
You get a lot out of it just reading it on your own, and I do include

Unknown Speaker  20:04  
after each question that chapter, there's a couple of blank spaces with lines where

Unknown Speaker  20:10  
you can write your own answers, so you can use it, yeah, so you can use it as a semi workbook as well, if you, if that's what appeals to you.

Unknown Speaker  20:20  
My goal is not to get rich. I think I have spent so much because I self-published and advertising is expensive, and it's like I don't know if I'll ever recoup the money I spent in the creation of this book, but I'm okay with that if this helps people, because that's what my main goal was in writing it, is to help people.

Unknown Speaker  20:43  
Yeah, please buy the book if you're depressed, or if you know someone who is. So, where can people find the book? Where can they find you? It's available on most online book sites.

Unknown Speaker  20:54  
Amazon definitely has it. So, it's on most.. it's on most book sites, but if you're going to Amazon, I put my name is Pamela J Wells, because there's actually other Pam Wells authors out there,

Unknown Speaker  21:08  
so I didn't want to just put Pam Wells or Pamela Wells, because there are others, so I put the J in there with my middle name, so if you're searching for it on Amazon, put the Pamela J Wells in there, and this book should pop up, but it's on Amazon Canada and US, it's on Kobo, Canada, and US in Canada. Well, Indigo Books, chapters, any of those places have it. A lot of online book sites, Barnes and Noble, probably everywhere. Yeah, I think Barnes and Noble, I know they said something about only carrying it close to where I live, but I think if you went on their website and ordered it, you probably could get it that way too, but I mean, with Amazon, you've got access to it. Thank you, Pamela, so much for your time. Oh, you're talking about your book and your journey. I think everybody's journey is different, and that's kind of what this whole new season, this podcast episode is about, is kind of like the messy, the beautiful experiences that we each have, because everybody's experiences are different. Yes, so if any of you are interested in the book, I'll put her links in the show note, at least the Amazon one. And if you have any questions for Pamela, just reach out. Pamela, do you have, like, a website or anything? Um, I'm on Facebook. I started a Facebook page just for the book called Understanding Depression. In the book itself, I put an email address. I created an email address just for the book, so it's not my personal one, but it's just Pam Wells at Outlook.

Unknown Speaker  22:32  
And in the book, I do say, "Please don't message me for advice, because any advice I have is in this book, and I'm not a trained counselor, I'm not a therapist, I'm not qualified to give you any sort of medical advice, and

Unknown Speaker  22:47  
I wouldn't want to do that anyway. That's just too dangerous, but anything I know is in this book. Other than that, I put the email address, because some people might want to share their stories with me. Who knows, if I get enough stories, there might be a book too. But yeah, I, so my email address is in the book, Pam wells@outlook.com

Unknown Speaker  23:06  
or on Facebook at Just Look at Look for Understanding Depression. Thank you, Pamela, so much for today. Have a great day, lovely souls. We'll see you next week. Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai