Living out Loud with Denise Derr

Hosts Sarah and Mary Beth welcome guest Denise Derr to discuss the life-changing impact of Celebrate Recovery (CR). Denise, a co-ministry leader, shares her powerful testimony of transitioning from nine years in traditional 12-step programs (AA/NA) to CR where "God doesn't waste a hurt."

Key Takeaways:

• The Missing Piece: Denise reveals that despite her sobriety, she felt something was missing—a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. She had believed she was "too damaged for God's love," a lie the enemy uses to create shame.
• The Power of Community: Denise emphasizes the confidentiality of CR that creates a safe place to share the "quiet parts out loud" without fear of interruption or judgment. This safety is vital for the painful process of "peeling back the layers" and addressing character defects.
• Transformation and Leadership: Denise shares her journey from starting CR 11 years ago, to becoming a co-ministry leader. Her story illustrates that recovery is a daily process and a continuous choice to accept God's forgiveness and be dependent on Him.
• The Ripple Effect of Hope: The episode concludes with a moving account of how CR impacted Denise's marriage, transforming her relationship with her husband, Willie, who also got involved and now serves in leadership. Her story is a message of hope, demonstrating that God can restore relationships—even leading to her granddaughter wanting a marriage "just like yours and grandpa's." 

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Transcript

00:00-00:05

On today's episode of Trustworthy, Mary Beth and I have a chance to sit down with Denise Derr.

00:06-00:16

We talked to Denise about her experience with Celebrate Recovery, a Christ-centered 12-step ministry that is based on the Beatitudes.

00:17-00:24

Listen to our conversation for a little bit of Denise's story and a whole lot of hope.

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This is Trustworthy.

00:28-00:29

Hi, I'm Sarah.

00:29-00:30

And I'm Mary Beth.

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Join us for Conversations in Community.

00:34-00:36

Established by a trustworthy God.

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[MUSIC PLAYING]

00:44-00:45

Well, hello there, Denise.

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Good morning.

00:48-00:49

Good morning, and hello there, Mary Beth.

00:49-00:50

Hello.

00:51-00:52

My name is Sarah.

00:53-00:53

Did you know that?

00:53-00:54

I did.

00:55-00:56

By the time we did a few of these episodes,

00:57-00:59

I was like, who's that lady again that I keep talking to?

00:59-00:59

Oh, it's Sarah.

01:00-01:00

Yeah.

01:01-01:05

And Denise knows me because actually, do you remember when we kind of met for the

01:05-01:05

first time?

01:06-01:07

Yeah, it was in the baby room.

01:08-01:08

I know.

01:09-01:10

On a Wednesday morning.

01:11-01:13

What a lovely place to meet.

01:15-01:16

Seriously.

01:17-01:18

In a baby room.

01:18-01:18

Yeah.

01:19-01:19

There's children.

01:20-01:21

Oh, what a privilege.

01:22-01:24

It was at our women's Bible study at church.

01:25-01:27

We take turns watching other people's children.

01:28-01:32

And Denise and I were very happy to be in the baby room that day.

01:32-01:32

Yeah.

01:33-01:34

I'm not sure who had more fun.

01:35-01:36

Us or the children?

01:36-01:37

It was probably us.

01:37-01:38

Probably us.

01:38-01:38

Yeah.

01:40-01:44

We have invited you here today, Denise, not just because you're good with babies,

01:44-01:50

but also because you are a part of our Celebrate Recovery community at church.

01:51-01:56

And our listeners will know a little bit about Celebrate Recovery because Mary Beth and I

01:56-02:03

just recorded an episode called Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud, which I'm still nervous about.

02:04-02:09

It'll be okay. Okay, good. Good. Good. Good. I think Denise can encourage us a lot in saying

02:09-02:16

the quiet part. I think she can. Yeah. So you're here today because, well, I know you, but also

02:16-02:26

because you are an amazing example of what a life lived in Christ and committed to what

02:27-02:31

he has for you to do, what it looks like, and especially when you're willing to say those

02:31-02:32

quiet things out loud.

02:33-02:40

It's an absolute honor and a privilege to be able to be here and to share this with

02:40-02:45

the community that I visually can't see, but I can't see God either.

02:46-02:53

So you just have to have that trust that God's work is going to be used.

02:54-02:55

And we know that God doesn't waste a hurt.

02:56-02:57

Oh, I love that.

02:57-03:00

Yeah, we were just talking before, in fact, we were praying before we started

03:00-03:05

this recording that the words that we speak today would go to the ears that

03:05-03:09

need to hear it whenever and wherever that might be.

03:09-03:12

Yeah, in God's timing and God's timing.

03:12-03:12

That's right.

03:12-03:20

Denise is trying to know or Sarah's or Mary Beth's and how the community that we are part of within this conversation.

03:22-03:25

Transcends time and space because we just we don't know who's going to listen.

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So if you're hearing this, just know these words are for you.

03:29-03:30

Yeah, it's not by accident.

03:30-03:31

It's not. All right.

03:31-03:33

It's by design and not even our design.

03:37-03:41

Okay, so now we know where we met Denise, which is always important.

03:42-03:46

And I have a couple of questions for you, Denise.

03:47-03:51

What drew you to Celebrate Recovery?

03:52-03:59

I was in traditional 12 step program, AA and NA for nine years.

04:00-04:06

So at about year eight, I just kept feeling that there was something missing.

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And I didn't know what it was.

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So my sponsor always encouraged me just pray.

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So literally I prayed on that for a whole year.

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And my sponsor had invited me out to breakfast one morning and probably five years prior to

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that she got very involved.

04:27-04:32

She launched the Celebrate Recovery at Willowdale Chapel 16 years ago.

04:33-04:35

So she was very involved in that.

04:35-04:41

And I'm still very involved in AA/NA and sponsoring women and opening up new meetings, but there

04:41-04:45

was still something that was missing in my recovery.

04:46-04:47

So she invited me to breakfast.

04:48-04:49

We met for breakfast.

04:51-04:54

And it was revealed to me what I was missing.

04:55-05:00

And in the middle of breakfast, I just go, "Oh my gosh, I know what it is."

05:00-05:02

And she's looking at me like I have three heads.

05:04-05:06

And she goes, "What are you talking about?"

05:06-05:10

I said, "God just revealed to me what I'm supposed to be doing."

05:10-05:12

She goes, "And what's that?"

05:13-05:17

I said, "He clearly just told me I'm supposed to be at Celebrate Recovery."

05:17-05:21

So that following Monday, I started going to Celebrate Recovery.

05:22-05:22

Wow.

05:22-05:30

And I haven't looked back and I haven't stopped going on Monday nights, but it's been an amazing

05:30-05:30

journey.

05:31-05:34

- Yeah, in fact, you were mentioning earlier

05:34-05:37

that you are one of the co-ministry leaders now.

05:37-05:38

- I am. - At this point, yeah.

05:39-05:43

So if you would, give me a little bit of the story

05:43-05:45

about how you came that Monday.

05:46-05:47

- 11 years ago. - 11 years ago.

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Okay, I tried to do the math here.

05:49-05:51

And then now our co-ministry leader.

05:51-05:53

What did that journey look like for you?

05:53-05:55

And what did you find?

05:55-05:56

Okay, this is two questions.

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What did you find at Celebrate Recovery

05:59-06:00

that you were missing?

06:01-06:04

The key thing that I was missing was a relationship with Jesus.

06:05-06:13

I was raised Catholic and I believed in God, but I only believed that God was there for

06:13-06:18

you and you, Marybeth and little Joey down the street.

06:19-06:22

I believed that I was way too damaged for God's love.

06:24-06:26

So but that's what I was missing.

06:27-06:31

That's exactly what I found at Celebrate Recovery.

06:32-06:40

It's amazing that God showed that to you before you even knew what it was exactly that you needed.

06:40-06:45

I'm really struck by that too. You had mentioned that you believed that God was for everybody

06:45-06:50

else but not for me. And isn't that what the enemy wants us to believe?

06:51-06:51

Absolutely.

06:51-06:56

Isn't that, oh, but that's not for me. I'm not good enough for that. Oh, those people are better

06:56-07:03

than me or maybe I have my life together. I don't need that. What a lie. Yeah. And they're

07:03-07:13

the lies that we tell ourselves. They're the lies that others tell us. Yeah. Sorry, you're

07:13-07:19

just not good enough. You're not tall enough. You're not pretty enough. You're not thin

07:19-07:29

enough, how much in society do we hear these constant lies? And eventually we believe them.

07:30-07:33

Yeah. If you only hear something here and there, it's not

07:34-07:41

probable that you're just going to deeply believe that. But when it's constantly in your face,

07:43-07:47

okay, it must be true. Yeah. I'm not smart enough. I can't do that.

07:48-07:55

So then how do we fight back, right? Being in a place like Celebrate Recovery, being in a safe

07:55-08:00

place where you can share your most vulnerable secrets, you know, the quiet parts, right?

08:00-08:07

Yeah. And people don't leave the room. No. Yeah. They're not getting up. They're not interrupting

08:07-08:12

you. That's part of the DNA that you're not interrupted. We have guidelines for our meetings

08:13-08:18

and that we're not there to fix one another. Oh, that's a big one. Oh my gosh. I couldn't

08:18-08:24

fix me how am I gonna fix you seriously you didn't want the life I had if

08:24-08:30

that's all I got trust me you don't want it yeah and that's hard for a

08:30-08:35

codependent because we just want to run in there and okay well I'll just fix

08:35-08:39

this and then we can just because I wouldn't want your feelings to be hurt

08:39-08:46

I'm in recovery from codependency right here it is a real thing and it

08:46-08:48

manifests itself in so many ways.

08:49-08:51

People give me feedback on things sometimes,

08:51-08:53

and sometimes I just take it too personally

08:53-08:55

'cause I'm like, well, but I don't want people to fight.

08:55-08:56

I want everybody to be happy.

08:56-08:57

Like, how could this be?

08:57-09:00

And then I find myself spinning out.

09:00-09:02

And then that prevents me from doing the work

09:03-09:04

that I'm supposed to be doing.

09:04-09:04

- Right.

09:05-09:07

- Yeah, okay, we could just go on a whole hour about that.

09:08-09:09

- Off that rabbit trail.

09:11-09:12

And all of these things are real things.

09:13-09:25

All of this brokenness is all real stuff and how it affects our lives, how it affects our relationships with others, with God.

09:26-09:30

Like when I start playing God, look out.

09:30-09:31

Yeah.

09:31-09:31

Look out.

09:31-09:32

It's not going to be good.

09:33-09:35

A lot of things are going to fall.

09:35-09:42

But when I'm doing God's will and trying to follow with his will, it's not always clear.

09:43-09:48

And sometimes my prayer is Lord just tell me what the two by four show me what it is

09:49-09:50

Because I'm not getting it

09:52-09:54

Then I get hit with that two by four and I go oh wow

09:56-10:01

No, I couldn't have dreamt into that depth by myself. Yeah, I

10:03-10:07

Have a question for you Denise. What did it feel like to?

10:07-10:14

Walk into that room for the first time like you mentioned I'm supposed to be at celebrate recovery

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You didn't necessarily know why you just knew you were supposed to what did it feel like that first time?

10:22-10:28

Because I'd been in recovery like I said for nine years before I even showed up at celebrate recovery

10:29-10:32

It was more of a comfort and

10:34-10:35

I still didn't understand it

10:37-10:44

You know what I mean? I get it today, but I didn't understand it 11 years ago. That makes any sense

10:45-10:51

But I just kept coming right I just kept coming put one foot in front of the other

10:52-10:59

Walking in to Celebrate Recovery I was convinced I knew I had I was an alcoholic and a drug addict

11:00-11:03

But thank God started revealing so much more to me

11:04-11:09

He showed me that I'm a codependent with food issues too.

11:09-11:10

Oh my goodness.

11:10-11:13

I'm like, he's kind of like peeling this onion, right?

11:13-11:16

Okay, well you already know that that's an issue for you.

11:16-11:19

Okay, so all right, I've taken that obsession

11:19-11:20

and compulsion away.

11:22-11:24

Here, let me show you some more stuff.

11:25-11:28

So, and those things were revealed to me

11:28-11:29

once I get into a step study.

11:31-11:38

I started coming to celebrate recovery in March and the next women's step study wasn't until September.

11:40-11:46

So I was like really anxious. Okay, I know you got something for me. Let's get rolling. I'm ready.

11:47-11:49

But again, it's in God's timing.

11:49-11:55

Yeah. And that sounds like a painful process. You described peeling back the layers like an onion.

11:55-11:57

That doesn't feel good.

11:57-11:59

Onion makes you cry too, right?

11:59-12:00

Oh, yeah.

12:01-12:03

So does that or did me.

12:03-12:08

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, what is it about that community that

12:08-12:11

makes it a safe place to do all that work?

12:12-12:14

I'm going to go back to the DNA.

12:15-12:19

Because that's in place, whether you're in a small group

12:20-12:25

or you're in a step study group, those guidelines still apply.

12:26-12:35

So consistency and being a co-minister leader, I've had to talk to people

12:37-12:41

about some guidelines that were broken during the small group that I was in.

12:41-12:43

In terms of privacy, you mean?

12:44-12:50

Yes. Whether they're going back and talking to their husbands or it doesn't matter what said in

12:50-12:55

the group stays in the group. And I'm not going to open my mouth if I think it's going to be said

12:55-13:00

out in cafe time, right? Or is it going to be said when you get home and you have a cup of tea with

13:00-13:07

your husband? I'm done sharing that. If I want people to know that, then I'll share it with them.

13:07-13:13

And I don't think I'm different in that way. No, I think that's one of the reasons why even AA has

13:13-13:19

been so successful for so many years, because there's this level of comfort with the confidentiality.

13:20-13:22

I mean, it has to be that way.

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Otherwise, people can't open up.

13:24-13:25

Right. Yeah.

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If you don't feel safe, you're not going to be your real self.

13:28-13:30

Right. What's said in the group stays in the group.

13:31-13:31

Yeah.

13:33-13:36

I'm curious to hear more about how you kind of went from.

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You came to celebrate recovery.

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You really got to know Jesus there for the first time.

13:43-13:47

Fast forward to now and you're co-leading this ministry.

13:47-13:50

What is that kind of leadership process looked like

13:50-13:51

how you got to where you are.

13:53-13:53

I don't even know.

13:57-13:58

Yeah, I don't know.

13:59-14:00

I just started with a step study.

14:01-14:05

I was already sponsoring women, but until I went through the

14:05-14:08

the celebrate recovery step study and went through their training,

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then I started sponsoring more women.

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It's just amazing.

14:17-14:22

to look back and see that process, but it was all God.

14:24-14:26

And I was just trying to be obedient.

14:28-14:30

When I was asked to be the Co-Ministry Leader,

14:30-14:33

I'm like, "I don't think I'm your girl."

14:33-14:35

Like, you know what I mean?

14:35-14:35

- Yeah.

14:36-14:37

- That's, that's a-

14:37-14:40

- That's that same voice back all those years ago

14:40-14:43

that said, "Oh, God's not for me.

14:43-14:45

God's for other people." - Exactly.

14:45-14:46

- And how- - God's for the good ones.

14:46-14:47

Not for me.

14:47-14:50

He don't like, this is too much of a project for him.

14:51-14:53

- That shame can kind of creep back in.

14:53-14:53

- Absolutely.

14:54-14:55

- Second guess in yourself, yeah.

14:55-14:57

- And like I might've mentioned,

14:57-15:00

my character defects, yes, God removed them.

15:02-15:02

Forever?

15:03-15:03

No.

15:04-15:04

- Yeah.

15:05-15:09

- I'm human and just like in your verses of Romans

15:09-15:13

that you had read, I can fall back into that sin.

15:13-15:20

That's a daily, daily thing that, that all humans can fall into.

15:20-15:20

Yeah.

15:21-15:21

Yeah.

15:21-15:23

We were reading some scripture before we started.

15:24-15:24

Yeah.

15:24-15:25

You're talking about Roman seven.

15:26-15:27

I am talking about Roman seven.

15:28-15:28

Yeah.

15:29-15:32

How about I do verses 19 to 25?

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Perfect.

15:35-15:40

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do this.

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I keep on doing.

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Now, if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living

15:49-15:49

in me that does it.

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So I find this law at work.

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Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me, for in my inner being I delight

15:58-15:59

in God's law.

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But I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind, and making

16:05-16:07

me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

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What a wretched man I am.

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Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

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Thanks be to God who delivers me through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

16:19-16:19

Amen.

16:20-16:21

Amen.

16:22-16:31

That's a wonderful description for what you just shared earlier about your in-recovery

16:32-16:35

and things were great, but there was something missing.

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And it was a relationship.

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It was a relationship with Jesus and I just love that.

16:40-16:42

What a wretched woman.

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Sarah, me, what a wretched woman I am.

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What will save me?

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Thanks be to God.

16:49-16:50

The blood of Jesus.

16:50-16:54

It's not coincidental that you got that scripture this morning, Sarah.

16:54-16:55

No, it certainly wasn't.

16:55-17:01

Well, and even that concept in verse 23 that there's something that's waging war against

17:01-17:05

us all the time and we have to fight back.

17:05-17:06

Yeah.

17:06-17:09

that ultimately does it for us, fights our battles for us.

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But it's easy sometimes to just

17:15-17:16

let the enemy take over.

17:16-17:19

You know, we are experiencing that this morning.

17:19-17:21

Listeners, you won't know this, but we'll share it.

17:21-17:27

We have had some technical difficulties significantly and lost a good portion of recording.

17:27-17:30

And this is the second recording you're listening to.

17:30-17:34

So we are even more determined to have this conversation.

17:35-17:36

But we're not fighting alone.

17:36-17:38

No, we're not praise God. Yes.

17:42-17:45

So then another question I have just thinking about your

17:47-17:52

experience with Celebrate Recovery, your life now compared to how it was maybe a decade or so ago.

17:53-18:00

Describe kind of just the impact that's had on you in terms of your relationships with other people,

18:00-18:02

maybe your experience with the church.

18:02-18:04

How does that look different?

18:04-18:05

what does that look like?

18:06-18:11

Like I said, I was raised in the Catholic Church, but once I was able to,

18:12-18:16

once I got a driver's license, then I would take the car and pretend I'm going

18:16-18:19

to church. Today, I don't pretend.

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I am excited to be going to church.

18:23-18:26

How it's impacted my relationships.

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Well, you guys were at the anniversary, so you heard the story.

18:29-18:34

my husband and I did a little snippet of our marital story.

18:35-18:39

But when I came to Celebrate Recovery, this is how God works.

18:39-18:40

It's amazing.

18:42-18:48

We needed a guy in the sound booth and my husband did special effects

18:48-18:50

lighting. That was his career.

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So my sponsor said, Hey, do you think Willie could help us out?

18:56-18:58

We need somebody to do lighting and sound.

18:58-19:00

And I'm like, I don't know.

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I'll ask him and he was not anywhere close to recovery.

19:04-19:09

He was accepting that I would be going three, four nights a week.

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So he started coming and working in the sound booth.

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And that went on for two and a half, probably about two and a half years.

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And then leadership, and this was before I was in leadership,

19:22-19:26

had invited him to go to the Celebrate Recovery Summit in Nashville.

19:28-19:32

And he's like, "No, I'm just your sound guy."

19:32-19:35

And as soon as we were done in large group, he packed up and rolled.

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He never went to a small group.

19:37-19:39

I'm not here. I'm not one of you guys.

19:40-19:42

So, and that went on.

19:43-19:45

And God had him sitting in that seat,

19:47-19:52

hearing a testimony every other week of somebody's life that had changed,

19:52-19:56

or it was a teaching on one of the 12 steps.

19:56-19:59

So he was already God was feeding him this message.

20:00-20:07

And finally, I'm not sure who or what convinced him that, yes, you're going to the summit.

20:09-20:14

And that's where he met this guy named Jeff and it told Willie story.

20:16-20:20

So Willie came back from that summit and.

20:21-20:27

immediately joined the step study starting to go into chemical dependency.

20:28-20:33

Yes. So that's, it's impacted my marriage.

20:33-20:36

And he continues. He's in leadership as well.

20:37-20:41

He is our ambassador for Celebrate Recovery.

20:44-20:45

And he's very committed.

20:46-20:46

Wow.

20:47-20:59

So like I said, in my piece of our little testimony on the open house was he wanted to know, like I had just got clean.

20:59-21:00

I was 11 days clean.

21:01-21:03

And it was our 15th wedding anniversary.

21:04-21:06

And Willie says, this is a big, big deal.

21:07-21:08

15 years, that's a long time.

21:09-21:11

And he goes, well, what do you want to do to celebrate?

21:12-21:16

I looked at this man that I professed to love and said to him,

21:17-21:20

We ain't celebrating 15 because we're not going to see 16.

21:21-21:22

Wow.

21:22-21:25

Last month we celebrated 35 years.

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Oh my goodness.

21:26-21:28

So God is so good.

21:29-21:29

Yeah.

21:30-21:33

I just have to get out of the way so he can do the work.

21:34-21:34

Yeah.

21:36-21:43

So that's just one little tiny example of a relationship that, that's been changed.

21:43-21:44

It's a big relationship.

21:45-21:46

But I mean, and it's a ripple effect.

21:47-21:47

Yeah.

21:47-21:47

Yeah.

21:48-21:48

I was just thinking that.

21:49-21:54

Throw stone into a pond and you just watch that ripple effect and how it just

21:54-21:55

keeps going and going and going.

21:56-22:01

Because your marriage affects your children, your greater family, and then

22:01-22:03

the celebrate recovery community and your church.

22:04-22:10

The impact that you can have as a couple with this story to tell is so much

22:10-22:10

greater.

22:11-22:11

Yeah, it's unbelievable.

22:13-22:18

And one of the greatest things is my granddaughter said to me,

22:19-22:22

it's probably been 10 years and better because she just got married.

22:23-22:27

She said, grandma, I want a relationship just like yours and grandpa's.

22:29-22:31

That's the kind of marriage I want.

22:33-22:33

Wow.

22:33-22:35

And I want to say, honey, you really don't know.

22:36-22:39

It lived through the bad part.

22:39-22:41

I hope you get it.

22:41-22:42

Just not the way we did.

22:43-22:43

Right.

22:45-22:47

There's so much in scripture that God talks about

22:47-22:48

from generation to generation

22:49-22:52

and his faithfulness being passed down through family.

22:52-22:54

So that's an amazing testimony for your granddaughter

22:55-22:56

to be able to see that.

22:56-22:57

- A legacy, a legacy.

22:57-22:57

- Yeah.

23:00-23:02

- Denise, you mentioned just a little bit

23:02-23:06

of your personal story that you and Willie had shared

23:06-23:07

that we, of course, Mary Beth and I heard,

23:08-23:09

but I just wonder if you'd be willing to share

23:09-23:13

just a little bit more of your own personal testimony

23:13-23:15

listeners as much or as little as you'd like to.

23:16-23:17

- I'm sure.

23:20-23:22

Well, once upon a time now.

23:22-23:23

(both laughing)

23:23-23:25

- Well, I guess maybe let me say it this way.

23:26-23:29

What do you want people to hear?

23:30-23:32

What message is it that God is asking you

23:32-23:34

to bring right now through your testimony?

23:34-23:35

- A message of hope.

23:37-23:39

Definitely a message of hope.

23:40-23:50

He has given me so many opportunities to just plant a seed, that little mustard seed, just plant it,

23:52-24:00

and then get out of the way because I feel that God wants that seed planted, but that doesn't mean

24:01-24:07

I have to carry it through fruition. That's his job. I don't want to be God anymore.

24:09-24:14

I destroyed a lot of my life and a lot of other people's lives trying to be God.

24:15-24:16

And it never worked out.

24:18-24:20

And this was a recent thing that just happened.

24:21-24:25

My phone number was given to somebody that I didn't know.

24:26-24:31

So they asked me of course and I'm like, anytime I'm good with that.

24:32-24:38

So this woman and I connected and she's fearful for her adult daughter.

24:38-24:42

who lives out of town, but she feels like she's not in a good place.

24:43-24:50

Things are starting to go sideways in her life and what can she do and all this other stuff.

24:51-24:57

And I listened and we talked a little bit. I gave her some of my story, but I told her,

24:59-25:04

"Don't lose hope. Don't lose hope."

25:05-25:09

and try to repair that relationship, try to build some trust in that relationship

25:11-25:15

and pray, don't stop praying, don't lose hope.

25:17-25:20

And then I had invited her to the open house.

25:22-25:26

She said after we had talked and she hadn't talked to her daughter in a couple weeks,

25:26-25:29

she would leave messages and not get a return phone call.

25:30-25:31

I know what that's like.

25:32-25:38

And I just kept telling her, don't lose hope, you know, and go into it without an expectation.

25:39-25:46

Because if we put an expectation on how somebody else is going to behave, we're always going

25:46-25:46

to be disappointed.

25:47-25:47

Yeah.

25:48-25:52

And then we're putting undue stress on them that sometimes drives the wedge even greater.

25:52-25:53

Right.

25:53-25:54

And why is that?

25:54-25:55

Because they're full of shame.

25:57-26:01

They know what they're doing is not where they should be in life, but they don't know

26:01-26:02

how to get out of it.

26:03-26:10

So if we continue to feed that shame, like you said, Sarah drives a bigger wedge in that

26:10-26:10

relationship.

26:11-26:15

So I told her, I said, make that phone call, just leave a message.

26:15-26:18

Hey, honey, know that I love you and hang on.

26:20-26:21

Call me when you can.

26:22-26:23

Take the expectation out of it.

26:24-26:31

She told me within that week, her daughter had called her and they spoke for an hour

26:32-26:33

Wow on the telephone.

26:36-26:38

Now that's nothing but God, Jesus.

26:39-26:39

Yeah.

26:42-26:45

And I said, just keep doing it.

26:45-26:47

She goes, we really didn't talk about much.

26:47-26:48

I said, it doesn't matter.

26:49-26:52

It doesn't matter if you talk about how blue the sky was today.

26:53-26:54

It doesn't matter.

26:56-26:57

You're building a relationship

26:59-27:00

that when she is ready.

27:02-27:03

You know what?

27:03-27:04

I think I'll call mom.

27:05-27:06

I need help.

27:08-27:09

And then you can be there.

27:12-27:15

I really appreciate you sharing that particular story

27:16-27:18

because I have some people in my life

27:18-27:20

that are dealing with the same thing

27:20-27:22

with their adult children and just.

27:22-27:25

don't even really know what to do or where to turn.

27:26-27:29

- You wanna talk about helpless, powerlessness,

27:30-27:32

you know, and that's the first step.

27:32-27:33

We're powerless.

27:34-27:37

We are powerless without the power of Jesus Christ.

27:38-27:38

- So true.

27:39-27:42

- And I thought I was all powerful.

27:43-27:46

- Well, we have such good ideas as codependence.

27:46-27:46

We think we know.

27:47-27:47

We think we know.

27:48-27:50

Well, if you just did this, it could work,

27:50-27:52

It might not, but you could try.

27:52-27:53

Right.

27:54-27:56

Well, I'm just wondering what.

27:59-28:02

Denise, 11 days sober on her 15th anniversary,

28:02-28:07

who clearly did not have hope, would think hearing you talk today.

28:09-28:12

I usually cry when I talk about that.

28:13-28:13

Yeah.

28:13-28:14

Because.

28:16-28:18

This is the man that I love.

28:18-28:22

This is the man that Christ put in my life.

28:23-28:25

And this is how I'm treating him.

28:25-28:27

This is how I treated him.

28:28-28:29

That's despicable.

28:30-28:31

And I do have a choice.

28:31-28:37

Can I sit and stay in that shame and that regret and that guilt?

28:39-28:44

Or can I accept the forgiveness of my husband and the forgiveness?

28:44-28:46

Most of all, from Christ.

28:49-28:52

who is the author and perfecter of our faith.

28:53-28:54

Amen.

28:55-28:59

And there is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

29:03-29:09

Yeah, you mentioned earlier about how the shame and the guilt, they don't go away,

29:09-29:15

I guess the character defects, they don't necessarily go away, but if they did,

29:16-29:19

we wouldn't need God anymore.

29:20-29:21

And I don't wanna live a life without him.

29:23-29:26

If he's brought me here, if he's brought you here,

29:27-29:28

if he's brought Mary Beth here,

29:28-29:31

why would we wanna live without him?

29:31-29:33

So make me dependent on you God,

29:33-29:35

but oh, I don't know if I want you to.

29:35-29:37

- I got a question for you.

29:37-29:38

- Yeah, okay.

29:38-29:41

- What does the word ego stand for?

29:44-29:45

I feel like this is a trick question,

29:45-29:47

so I'm trying to play it out in my head.

29:47-29:49

- Yeah, is she going for like an acronym?

29:50-29:50

- Yes.

29:50-29:52

- The egotistical, but E.

29:53-29:54

- Everyone get out.

29:55-29:57

- Easing God out.

29:57-29:58

- Oh, okay, that wasn't too far.

30:00-30:03

- So like my ego becomes inflamed.

30:04-30:04

- Yeah.

30:06-30:06

- Right?

30:08-30:08

- Yeah.

30:08-30:09

- Easing God out.

30:10-30:14

And I like that because it uses the word easing,

30:14-30:17

not ejecting, not a sudden thing,

30:17-30:19

but a more gradual, oh, you know what?

30:20-30:22

That worked out really well in the past.

30:22-30:24

I'll just handle it the same way again this time.

30:24-30:30

I got it on my own and just slowly easing him out.

30:30-30:30

Wow.

30:32-30:33

- And the acronym for God,

30:35-30:37

Good Orderly Direction.

30:38-30:38

- Ooh.

30:39-30:42

Ooh, that's a good one too.

30:42-30:47

Good orderly direction, which is such a lifeline.

30:49-30:51

I know for me, when I am just,

30:53-30:54

I've made a shambles of my own life,

30:55-30:58

I can just remember coming to a place

30:58-30:59

where I admitted that I was powerless

30:59-31:01

over the things that were happening to me

31:01-31:03

or that were controlling my life

31:04-31:08

and just had to come to some basic starting point of sanity.

31:09-31:13

and good orderly direction is exactly what I needed.

31:14-31:15

I like that.

31:16-31:19

- And unfortunately, that's when I go, "Oh, I got this."

31:21-31:22

Oh my gosh.

31:23-31:26

Those words should never come out of my mouth.

31:26-31:26

(laughing)

31:28-31:29

Ever, you know?

31:29-31:31

- So what we think we're doing well is when we're really not.

31:31-31:32

- Yeah, we're really not.

31:32-31:34

Yeah, oh man.

31:36-31:36

All right.

31:37-31:39

So then Denise. Yes.

31:41-31:43

Do you have anything else that you would like to share?

31:45-31:45

Hmm.

31:47-31:48

I could be here all day.

31:49-31:50

You guys be like, OK, we got enough.

31:51-31:51

Now we're good.

31:51-31:52

You got we got time.

31:53-31:54

Um, the mic is yours.

31:55-31:55

I just.

31:58-32:03

Anyone out there that has a loved one or a co-worker.

32:04-32:13

Anyone in their lives that is struggling or yourself, you never have to struggle alone.

32:16-32:22

But my thing was is I always felt like, and this is a lot of how I was raised,

32:24-32:30

pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You made this best, now lie in it. But that's not

32:31-32:42

how God wants us to live. God wants us to come to Him in our mess, right? So He took my mess

32:43-32:47

and made it His message, and He will do that for you too.

32:50-32:56

I just have so many examples. At one point I was working and it was a lot of hours,

32:56-33:00

five days a week, 10 to 15 hours a day.

33:01-33:01

Wow.

33:02-33:10

And somebody asked me to sponsor them and I already have a couple sponsors and I'm just torn because

33:10-33:15

there's that codependent part of me. Oh, okay, somebody wants me to help them. I gotta help them.

33:15-33:26

You know, and I just threw this up to God and I just said, "What is your will for me right now, Lord?"

33:26-33:33

Please be abundantly clear hit me with that two by four and show me what your

33:33-33:42

will is in this situation. Within 24 hours I got transferred from a store that

33:42-33:48

I was traveling 45 minutes to get to and get home 45 minutes. He transferred me to

33:48-33:56

a store that was 10 minutes from my house, right? And there was another

33:56-34:04

commitment that I was on my plate, he totally took that off. And I'm like, okay, I guess

34:04-34:13

I know what I was supposed to be doing. The Lord just cleared my plate and said, here it is.

34:14-34:22

He made the way. And I was able to sponsor this woman. I was able to sit on that front row seat

34:22-34:30

on the sidelines and watch how God was transforming her in her life has nothing to do with me.

34:32-34:38

I just love that story because it just reminds me of all those years ago when God's like,

34:38-34:41

"You need to go to celebrate recovery." And at that breakfast, you're like, "Yep,

34:41-34:48

I know what I need to do." And then here again, he's like, "Denise, yeah, you need to sponsor

34:48-34:54

this person and oh by the way I'm gonna make it so it can happen. And then when you step up for

34:55-35:02

co-ministry leader you're like oh I don't know if I'm the person. No you are. God's like no here is

35:02-35:07

your path. I mean hindsight we get the chance now to look back and see the way that God has put all

35:07-35:12

these things together but I just love this story and bringing back again I just want to highlight

35:12-35:17

not to increase your ego, but just your obedience.

35:17-35:26

I feel like just your obedience for a long time over a lot of different ups and

35:26-35:30

downs in life. You continually said, yes, Lord, here I am.

35:31-35:35

And that has made such an impact on so many people.

35:37-35:41

And that's, I'm just, I'm just really proud to know you.

35:42-35:43

Well, thank you. It's an honor.

35:45-35:47

It is humbling because

35:50-35:54

not just that God puts me in others lives.

35:55-35:56

He did that for me.

35:57-36:00

He put all those people in my life

36:01-36:03

that planted seeds along the way.

36:04-36:06

And sometimes it took years for them to come to fruition.

36:07-36:09

But he did that for me.

36:12-36:15

I just kind of feel like it's my responsibility

36:17-36:19

to be obedient to him when I hear it.

36:20-36:22

Yeah. Well, and how can you not?

36:22-36:25

Right. Because of that, because of that,

36:26-36:27

that has been poured into you,

36:28-36:29

which we've been talking about this season,

36:29-36:33

that part of the community is discipling people and being discipled,

36:33-36:34

which is what we're doing here.

36:35-36:36

We call it mentor, mentee, same thing.

36:36-36:39

But that is exactly what we're called to do.

36:39-36:41

I mean, Jesus did it with his disciples.

36:41-36:45

He said, I am giving you this and now you will go and make disciples.

36:45-36:48

Well, it's we love because he first loved us.

36:48-36:55

It is a natural response when we experience his love for us, knowing

36:55-36:56

that we don't deserve it.

36:57-36:59

To then how could we not share that with others?

36:59-36:59

Right.

36:59-37:00

Yeah.

37:00-37:01

I don't want to keep it to myself.

37:02-37:02

Yeah.

37:02-37:04

Shout it from the mountaintops.

37:04-37:07

I don't have this because I deserve it.

37:08-37:09

or I certainly didn't earn it.

37:11-37:13

I have it because it was freely given to me.

37:14-37:14

Yeah.

37:15-37:17

And I've been asked to freely give it to others.

37:20-37:24

I'm thinking about what verse is it, Sarah, about being prepared to give a reason

37:24-37:25

for the hope that you have?

37:25-37:26

Yes.

37:26-37:27

I feel like Denise embodies that.

37:29-37:34

First Peter three fifteen, but in your hearts, revere Christ as Lord.

37:34-37:40

Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.

37:41-37:43

But do this with gentleness and respect.

37:44-37:51

Keeping a clear conscience so those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

37:52-37:55

I feel like there's a lot there. There is a lot there. Excellent Mary though.

37:57-37:59

Yeah, I was just thinking I feel like you are living that out.

38:00-38:03

It's a good example for us to see. So thanks for like Sarah said.

38:04-38:08

doing the day to day obedience and just being open to what God's going to

38:09-38:10

put on your plate or take off plate.

38:11-38:13

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

38:14-38:19

Yeah, it's so hard sometimes to accept.

38:22-38:25

Why God has done so much for me.

38:27-38:28

You know what I mean?

38:28-38:30

I do. Yeah.

38:30-38:33

I'm sorry, it's the evil one that keeps telling you.

38:33-38:36

Yeah, you really don't deserve this.

38:37-38:38

Well, I mean, that's true.

38:38-38:39

We don't deserve it.

38:39-38:40

You're right.

38:40-38:44

But God, but through God's grace and mercy.

38:44-38:47

Yes. It was given to me.

38:47-38:50

And let me tell you what, not just.

38:52-38:56

Monetarily, financially, but spiritually.

38:58-39:03

He has put people into my life that have just poured into me.

39:05-39:07

And does the cup go empty sometimes?

39:08-39:09

It sure does.

39:10-39:11

And that's when.

39:13-39:14

I'm quick to temper.

39:16-39:19

Closing the cabinet door a little harder than I normally do.

39:20-39:23

Just those little things you don't really know you're doing.

39:23-39:26

But then after what you go, oh, what was that about?

39:27-39:27

Yeah.

39:27-39:37

And then I have to reverse the tape and go, "Okay, what's going on?"

39:37-39:40

That cabinet didn't do anything to me.

39:40-39:44

But I'm trying to make a statement without knowing I'm trying to make a statement.

39:45-39:52

But I am just full of gratitude for the relationships that have been healed,

39:52-39:55

the relationships that have been nourished.

39:55-39:58

When some of those relationships went away.

40:00-40:01

Yeah. And that's appropriate.

40:02-40:03

And that's okay.

40:03-40:04

Yeah. Yeah.

40:05-40:07

I can still pray for those people,

40:09-40:13

but it's not healthy to be in a relationship with them.

40:13-40:16

But that doesn't mean I have any old feelings toward them.

40:17-40:17

Yep.

40:18-40:21

Just means for my own well-being, it's just not healthy.

40:22-40:25

Yeah. We often talk about on this podcast

40:25-40:28

the sum total of the five people you spend the most time with.

40:29-40:31

And you just have to choose those five very carefully.

40:32-40:32

Yeah.

40:35-40:36

For sure.

40:37-40:40

I think that it's interesting that we had talked about codependency.

40:41-40:48

And so being that I personally struggle with this and we're coming into a season of

40:48-40:50

busyness, I don't know when people will be listening to this, but there's always

40:51-40:52

a season of busyness, right?

40:52-40:59

But as we're coming into this time where I feel like I'm personally getting more,

40:59-41:02

more opportunities, things you're coming across my plate.

41:02-41:03

Do I do these things?

41:03-41:05

Do I not do these things?

41:06-41:09

Can you give Denise, give me some advice?

41:10-41:17

What, what would your advice be to, to any woman who is just kind of struggling

41:17-41:21

with, how do I know what it is that God wants me to do?

41:21-41:25

Let's say I have five opportunities in front of me, but I only have time to do three.

41:26-41:27

How do we follow the will of God?

41:27-41:31

Because sometimes you're saying no to a good thing and it's hard.

41:31-41:33

It can be hard to know what's the right thing.

41:33-41:35

Would you have a process?

41:35-41:37

Do you, how do you approach things like this?

41:38-41:41

You told the story before about how God cleared your plate literally.

41:41-41:46

But what would someone do if they are in recovery from codependency, but want to

41:46-41:51

follow God's will and but still have that desire to care for others and to do

41:51-41:52

things and to make everybody happy.

41:54-41:57

- My first suggestion is, is I always have to check my motives.

41:59-42:00

- Oh, that's a good one.

42:00-42:05

- Where is the desire or what is the desire to do that?

42:07-42:09

Is it so somebody can say,

42:10-42:12

oh, look at Denise, she does these marvelous things.

42:13-42:16

And if it is, don't do it.

42:17-42:21

Or is that desire coming from, you know what,

42:22-42:26

this person really, I would love to pour into them

42:27-42:31

without expectation, then do it.

42:31-42:32

- Oh, that's a big one.

42:34-42:37

- So the first thing I have to do when I feel like

42:37-42:39

I'm being called to do many things

42:41-42:43

is to check my motives, number one.

42:44-42:47

And number two, the other thing is, is I have to ask,

42:49-42:52

is this truly God's will?

42:54-42:54

Or is it my will?

42:57-43:01

And am I taking an opportunity from somebody else

43:03-43:06

that would be blessed by doing this?

43:06-43:10

Because we all know we have certain people in our lives

43:10-43:12

that if we ask them to do something,

43:12-43:13

you know what's gonna be done,

43:13-43:15

You know what's gonna be done right?

43:15-43:18

Check, you don't even have to think about it anymore, right?

43:19-43:19

- Correct.

43:20-43:23

- Okay, or do we give somebody else an opportunity

43:25-43:27

to help them grow in Christ?

43:31-43:36

By allowing them to be in a position

43:36-43:40

that you would always just take care of, right?

43:41-43:42

- Yeah, see what you're saying.

43:42-43:43

I think we talked about this before,

43:43-43:49

like even with our children, when you ask them to do a chore and they're not doing it very well,

43:49-43:53

do you just come in behind them and pick up or do you let them fail until they figure it out?

43:54-43:58

What is the loving thing to do? What is the Christ-like thing to do?

44:00-44:03

So in summation, we have checking motives.

44:04-44:05

That's the biggie for me.

44:06-44:11

And then being in the will of God, are you taking an opportunity away from someone else?

44:12-44:15

And then there was a fourth one in there that you mentioned near the beginning.

44:15-44:18

Oh, is this a person that I want to pour into?

44:19-44:20

I think is what you said.

44:21-44:21

Yeah.

44:21-44:30

Is this someone that God is trying to use me to pour into?

44:32-44:33

Well, that's some great advice.

44:34-44:37

I know that I can apply that immediately.

44:37-44:38

So thank you.

44:39-44:39

Thank you for that.

44:40-44:40

All right.

44:40-44:41

Okay.

44:42-44:45

So we usually have an on the spot question

44:45-44:48

that we give our guests and you don't have to play

44:48-44:50

if you don't want to, but Mary Beth,

44:53-44:54

let's ask her some on the spot questions.

44:54-44:56

- Okay, you're putting me on the spot to ask questions.

44:56-44:59

- I know, all right, all right, let's go back to,

44:59-45:01

this is one we've asked a few guests before.

45:01-45:02

- And I'm an open pot.

45:03-45:04

- Okay, that's good.

45:06-45:06

Denise.

45:07-45:07

- Yes.

45:08-45:11

- Mary Beth and I enjoy from time to time

45:11-45:15

setting the record straight on certain things in our life.

45:15-45:18

Using our podcast as a medium to set the record straight.

45:19-45:21

If there were anything that you can think of

45:21-45:24

your entire life that you felt misunderstood,

45:24-45:26

or if you just had a chance for everybody

45:26-45:29

to hear your side of it, you would feel better.

45:30-45:31

Is there anything that you would like

45:31-45:33

to set the record straight on?

45:35-45:38

- Yes, there is, that recovery is for everyone.

45:39-45:41

There's a group that anyone can fall into.

45:43-45:47

And recovery is not just for the alcoholic and the drug addict.

45:49-45:50

It's for the codependent.

45:50-45:53

It's for the person that uses food to comfort themselves.

45:54-45:57

It's for the person that can't control their anger.

45:57-46:01

It's, it is for the drug addict and the alcoholic,

46:01-46:05

but there's such a stigma attached when you say the word recovery.

46:07-46:08

Oh, I'm not one of those people.

46:09-46:12

Well, we all need recovery.

46:13-46:14

We do.

46:14-46:16

We all need Jesus.

46:18-46:18

That's a good one.

46:19-46:19

That's a great one.

46:20-46:29

And he promises not to solve some of our problems, but all of our problems if we lay them out

46:29-46:30

to cross.

46:30-46:31

Yeah, that's true.

46:31-46:37

If we allow him to, which seems ridiculous because he could just make us do stuff, but

46:37-46:37

he doesn't.

46:38-46:41

Right, he gives us free will to even make bad choices.

46:42-46:47

I was off the rail for 43 years, but that was my choice.

46:48-46:51

But when I just said, I can't do this,

46:52-46:57

he was there as long as I continued to stay willing.

46:59-47:01

It's a powerful thing when we realize that.

47:03-47:07

He was there all the time, regardless of what bad choices

47:07-47:09

that we've made, he never wasn't there.

47:10-47:13

We just didn't open ourselves up to that possibility.

47:14-47:14

Yeah.

47:17-47:19

Denise, thank you so much for coming today

47:20-47:21

and talking to us.

47:21-47:22

I really appreciate it.

47:23-47:26

I know that these conversations that we've had

47:26-47:28

are gonna stick with me for a while

47:28-47:31

and I hope that listeners wherever you are--

47:31-47:32

That you’ve enjoyed this as well.

47:33
 - Thank you.
 
 47:36

 - Until next time, I'm Sarah.
 
 47:39
 - And I'm Mary Beth.
 
 47:41
 - And I'm Denise.
 
 47:43
 - And this is Trustworthy.
 
 47:45
 (upbeat music)
 
 47:58
 Hey y'all, Mary Beth here.
 
 48:00
 Sarah and I are so glad that you chose
 
  to listen to our podcast.
  And while we think that we're awesome friends to have,
 
  we just wanted to clarify that we are not
 
 48:09 
 mental health professionals and want you to know
 
 that this podcast should not take the place
 
 of any paid professional advice.