Masters Alliance Uncut
Honest Conversations with Masters of their craft about life and Olympic Sport Issues
Masters Alliance Uncut
Juan Moreno: The Mastery of Taekwondo Evolution and Excellence
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Stepping onto the mat with Olympic coach and champion Juan Moreno, I, Herb Perez, Olympic gold medalist, bring to light the fascinating world of Taekwondo. In an inspiring conversation, Juan unravels his athletic saga, the kind that sparks fires in the hearts of up-and-coming fighters. We navigate through the rich tapestry of his journey, from being awestruck by martial arts legends to the adrenaline-filled arenas of the Olympics, offering a treasure trove of wisdom for athletes and coaches striving for greatness.
The art of perseverance and the strategic dance of Taekwondo take center stage as we dissect its evolution. We grapple with maintaining the sport's integrity amid technological advancements and the changing landscape of athlete development. With Juan's expertise, we illuminate the path for rising martial artists, examining the traits that carve out Olympic-level competitors and the significant roles played by organizations like the World Taekwondo Federation. It's a candid look into the balancing act between honoring tradition and embracing change, a must-hear for those vested in the discipline's future.
As the conversation culminates, we uncover exciting possibilities for Taekwondo's future and the shared vision driving the industry's top coaches and programs. Juan imparts timeless wisdom on how discipline can unlock true freedom in both sports and life. His thoughts echo the ancient strategists' philosophies, blending seamlessly with modern narratives on overcoming challenges and relentless pursuit of excellence. Join us for an episode that transcends the mere exchange of experiences—a masterclass in dedication, evolution, and the relentless pursuit of excellence.
Olympic Champions Share Martial Arts Insights
Speaker 1Welcome to the Masters Alliance podcast. I am Olympic gold medalist Herb Perez, and today I'm honored to share with you my interview with Olympic coach and Olympic champion Juan Moreno, 1988, 1992, and 2000,. Two-time silver medalist and World Cup champion, juan offers his insights into the state of our sport but, more importantly, into the state of our athletes across the world, and especially in the United States. He doesn't shirk, he doesn't hold back and he shares his true and honest opinion of what will be necessary to get the USA back on track for Olympic gold medals but, more importantly, what we can do to make our sport better. He is currently serving as one of Brazil's Olympic team coaches and is preparing their team for the upcoming Paris Olympic Games.
Speaker 1I could think of no one better to start this inaugural podcast series with than my good friend and brother, juan Moreno. So let's get started, juan Moreno. So let's get started. Welcome to our first podcast and our first Zoom with Olympic coach, olympic athlete, one of the most successful people in the history of our sport and he's developed programs all around the world and that's Coach Juan Moreno Welcome.
Speaker 2Thank you very much, Grandmaster Perez, good friend Perez, good friend Herb Young Happy to be here.
Speaker 1I know we've gone back a long ways and I couldn't think of anyone better to talk to in our first podcast as we start these educational programs but, more importantly, to talk about the Olympic sport where it stands now and the martial arts and kind of everything. But before we get there I mean, I know your illustrious history but I want to start something even more basic Could you tell us the moment, the spark that caused a passion for you to even think about starting to train in the martial arts, or the individual or both?
Speaker 2You know I have a couple of different points that I can really remember. I just remember being a little kid and you know seeing Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee on the TVs back in those days and you know going in the backyard just like every little kid, kicking and punching and making nunchucks out of you know trees and just doing all that crazy stuff. And I just I knew I enjoyed the martial arts, but it wasn't until one off season of hockey. I played hockey I come from the Midwest area, the Chicagoland area at the time and I stopped into a local little three business shopping center. There was a hot dog stand, a video arcade and a taekwondo school and me, my brother, my father, we stopped in for a hot dog. I don't eat hot dogs anymore but I did at the time and I finished mine really quickly. I went down you know two stores and I was looking in and my dad followed me down, my brother followed me down and it just luck fate would have had it that my dad actually knew somebody in the school, talked to him a little bit, we went back that night and that was it. It was, you know, the spark was a reality for something that I kind of thought was kind of cool and neat. All of a sudden here I am having this opportunity. So that really got everything going.
Speaker 2But I would say the big turning point was in 1986 when I heard that Taekwondo was going to be in the Olympics. Before that I had competed on the karate circuit on the Taekwondo circuit going to be in the Olympics. Before that I had competed on the karate circuit, on the Taekwondo circuit, but I don't think anybody thought about Taekwondo going to the Olympics. And all of a sudden, you know that's something you watched on TV for other sports. So in 86, when that thing got announced, you know, I was, you know, a 14, 15 year old kid and I'm like, wow, this could be me.
Speaker 1It was a big, crazy, lofty dream, but those two moments I just can vividly remember, just changing the whole course of my life. Well, you've had an amazing career and I think that some of the things that are really important are the people who were your early supporters and the people that helped you. So I know that you had an amazing career as a point karate athlete and, in fact, an outstanding career. It's still world-renowned now. So could you do you have any ideas on who your earliest and biggest supporters were in the early days and how they helped you to become who you became?
Speaker 2Yeah, my original. You know, people always ask me who's your instructor, who's your coach, and I have a couple terms for different people. But my original coach was a gentleman by the name of Gerald Jerry Cook. He was a banker by trade but he had a martial arts school. He came from a very traditional background. He had a Korean master named Suk Tae-jin, from the suburbs. He lived in the suburbs of Chicago as well and Mr Cook, you know, he gave me everything. He really gave me an opportunity to train when me and my family didn't have money. He supported me and took me to local tournaments, regional tournaments. He found people in the area that when he couldn't travel to take me along with them. There was a famous gentleman in the Chicago area named Tom Latuli. He had a karate circuit, a very famous karate circuit that I fought on, and also John Sharkey who had the AKA circuit. These are two prominent, you know, point karate circuits in that at that time, and so these people took me under their wing and and kind of showed me the ropes. So Mr Cook was the foundation. He allowed me to meet some other people, prominent people like Arlene Lemus, Larry Tankson, Scorpion Barrage, Steve Nasty Anderson I mean I could go on and on and on about the legends of karate, people that I was able to meet, encounter, you know, do some seminars with, train with and actually ultimately compete against some of them. So they were instrumental in the foundation for me, For everything that I've done since then. I will never forget and I'll never. I will always appreciate those beginning moments After that, you know, the significant person was Kareem Jabbar.
Speaker 2He was a former national team athlete.
Speaker 2He was my first what I call real coach.
Speaker 2He was someone that took me and taught me how to train where I think, up until that point I was a martial artist, I was a sport martial artist, if that makes sense, but Mr Jabbar, he was the one that talked to me about dieting, about weightlifting, about training, consistency, about periodization, about mentally preparing myself with different imagery and things like that. So he just took everything to the next level and he was the one guy truly the one guy that believed that I could make it to the Olympics in 1988. There's a lot of people who thought I was good, there was a lot of supporters, but he was the one man that said you can do it, you will do it. And he stayed with me all the way through. So those two are my. Jerry Cook and Kareem Jabbar were two of my just most instrumental people in my life other than you know, my family members that really provided me the opportunity to do what I do now. I give them all the credit for what I'm doing like literally right now.
Speaker 1Well, that leads into my next question, and it's a little bit about how did you train, perhaps before you became part of the Olympic movement, how did you train as a young athlete, and what were the key elements to your early success?
Speaker 2I tell people all the time I don't think I'm a special guy, but what I am special at is committing to something and I am, you know, extremely, you know, disciplined, and luckily I had that as a youngster. I don't know how I mean, I think, you know, my upbringing had something to do with that for sure. But I also believe that the individual has to be able to take that on and develop that, because somebody can tell you about it, they can show you, they can guide you. But if you don't accept it and you don't run with it, then you don't have discipline, you don't have commitment.
Speaker 2So I think at a young age I was just so committed to the martial arts that I would run on my own, I would read magazines, I would try to watch VHS, tapeshs, tapes, you know when I could get, you know, get it, my hands on them. Whatever I could do, I was just all in and I had a very, um, rocky, archaic type of, you know, training. I would run in the morning, I would kick in the air, you know it, you know whatever it was front kick, side kick rounds, to actually just silly things. But it wasn't about the actual techniques, it wasn't about that these were going to become strategical tools. It was just the fact that I did it and I knew that I was doing more than the next person.
Speaker 2So, you know, with competing and with having some good guidance, I just felt like I did a lot more than most people even thought about or even talked about. And that was even before I got into, like you said, the Olympic movement. So where people were going to classes three, four, five times a week. Yeah, I was doing that and I was trying to find out more, to develop my experience and my intellect, and I was physically doing a lot more than, for sure, anybody in my gym or any of the people that I knew, even the great ones, even the ones that I looked up to. I knew I was doing more than them. I wasn't at their level yet, but I knew I was doing more.
Speaker 1And that leads me to my next question. So inevitably, all great athletes have a challenge or an obstacle. Can you remember your setbacks and then remember any or recall any major challenge you had and then what that experience taught you or how it brought you to a different place or a better place?
Speaker 2You know I, you know the there's. You're right, every successful person in life, I don't care what you know domain you're in, whether it's in business or politics or sport every successful person or semi-successful person has some kind of go wrong. And there was a lot of control over matches. And again, I'm not unique. I mean it happened to all of us at some point. But for me, you know, I would say that you know, moving into my Olympic career, you know, I remember specifically one match in 1987 at the national championships.
Speaker 2I had a semi-final match against the national team athlete, the national team captain, and I thought it was a very good match. Matter of fact, I thought I did extremely well, let's put it that way. And when the match was finished, it was tradition that you walked over and you shook the opposing coach's hand before the decision was made and after. And I remember going over there and the gentleman looked at me and told me you're done. And I remember going over there and the gentleman looked at me and told me you're done. And like, for me, being a cocky little confident athlete I mean I was 16 at the time I guess I was like, why would this man say this to me. I mean, the decision hasn't been said yet and I was doing pretty well in that match, but I felt like at that moment he knew something that I didn't know and I did not like that feeling. I didn't like what he said and I definitely didn't like the feeling and I can remember to this moment who it was.
Speaker 2I recount this story very often, but it was a huge eye-awakener for me. I didn't take it personally in the sense of anybody was out to get me. I just knew that there was things that were out of my control and if I wanted to change that destiny, I would have to do again more. I could look for excuses or I could look for solutions and, like I said, as a 16-year-old I don't know why. I inherently knew those kind of things. But I literally gave a talk last night to my athletes.
Speaker 2You can look for the reasons why you're losing or you can look for the reasons why you should win and I remember making a decision at that point that I'm not going to lose to this guy again. And I had a few more chances to compete against him and in my opinion, he ducked me. He took the easy way out, didn't fight at a nationals didn't fight at a team trials until the final olympic trials. And every step along the way I was there, like in the ring, like, come to the ring and he didn't come. Next come to the ring, he didn't come. And people, even my father at one point, said you know, oh wow, so-and-so is not going to be here. And you know I took that as a slight like no, I want to fight him, you know, know, I want to show him.
Speaker 2And when the chips were all on the table, you know, in 1988, we finally matched up and I was fortunate enough to win. But you know, I took all those steps and used it as fuel and found a way to win, despite what I think was really crazily. You know insurmountable odds.
Speaker 1There's no doubt I was there and I remember the match and I certainly remember all those other matches and know the individuals and remember you winning, and it was so obvious what had happened prior to that that I believe there were people still there that day probably including myself that didn't think they would raise your hand. But I mean, that's what great athletes are made of. They take adversity, they take fire and fuel and I think one of the reasons, in my humble opinion, you did so well internationally was you had such a hard time just getting out of the country to make the US team that it made you a better athlete. It was actually fairer, more fairer than in the United States when you competed internationally. I mean, I want to we're going to come back to these ideas a little bit later but what role do you think that self-belief and visualization, if you used it at all, played in your athletic journey?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I think I think, inherently, we all dream, right, inherently, everyone thinks of what they could do. Or they watch a sport, they see something on TV, they see a movie, and they're like what would I do if I was on that mountain? What would I do if I was throwing that pass? So I think, as a youngster, I always dreamt of success and I love sports, I played baseball, basketball, soccer of success and I love sports. I played baseball, basketball, soccer, hockey, I played all sports. Um, so I just love to compete and I think that gave me an edge when I went into um an individual sport, um, I I knew other ways to find, you know, to win. And so you know, for me the visualization came in 1988 actually, um, uh, mr jabbar gave me a cassette tape and, uh, it was, you know, based on visualization and and how to, kind of step by step, instead of dreaming about something step by step, you know when, to think about it, giving me analogies of a boat in a in an ocean without a rudder, know, simple things that we think about now.
Speaker 2But you know, you're going back 30 plus years, almost 40 years. This stuff wasn't done too often. It was kind of like. You know, if you're using psychology, if you're using mental imagery, you might have a problem. Something is wrong with you. You're not tough enough. And that's why I say, like this guy you know, coach Jabbar was, he was ahead of his time. He was ahead of his time on many things and kind of frowned upon it a little bit. But I was just a dedicated, you know, student athlete and so when he told me to do something, I didn't question, I just did it. When he told me to run, I did it. When he told me to do a drill against a green belt, a normal person would have said, green belt, don't I need to go over there with the black belts, but for some reason I did it. And so mental imagery really came, you know, big to me in 1987.
Speaker 1So we're going to transition now and this is something that great athletes do sometimes and that aren't always successful, and you've been extremely successful at doing this. So there was a point where you made a transition, a decision to transition from being an athlete to actually take up coaching, and what was the biggest adjustment you think you had to make when you were switching those roles, or what were the challenges and other ideas you had since you had to make that decision?
Speaker 2Again, I can think of really two things off the top of my head and I want to say first, for some reason I always thought that I was going to be a better coach than athlete, and you know I'm bragging a little bit, but I had a pretty successful career as an athlete. But I just, I just love teaching and I love people and I like to work with people and I was always doing private lessons or teaching classes or doing some seminars. But two things you know, most successful people have a couple of different mentors and you know I'm not saying this because we're together, but you're one of my few mentors and I remember you told me something you said your challenge is going to be how do you translate what you've done inherently into other people? How are you going to give them your model, your program, your mentality? And I thought about that. I was like that is going to be my biggest challenge. We were actually working on a video series when you said that to me and it really made me think that I can't just be personality driven, I can't just do it.
Speaker 2At that time I trained with everybody and I was trying to lead by example. I tried to train harder than them. I tried to kick more than them, I ran more than them, I tried to beat everybody up every time somebody came into my gym and sparred. I was trying to do it by example. And then I realized if I'm doing that in the trainings, I can't be a successful coach, because I'm not. My eyes aren't on everybody else, and that makes sense. In football, baseball, basketball, I mean, the coach isn't out there throwing passes, the coach isn't out there shooting. You know layups or whatever they're watching.
Speaker 2Figure out how to take what made me successful, both mentally, physically, emotionally, strategically, and then replicate it to different people, different bodies, different. You know genders, different social, economic, you know backgrounds, all these different things. And I had to pull myself away from wanting to show and wanting to do, and that's hard for guys like us that are, that are alphas, right, we, we, we think we can do everything bigger and better. And it took me, um, it took me a while just to be able to say it's not my time, it's other people's time. Let me give it to them every once in a while. I gotta, you know, kind of show them what's up.
Speaker 1But but well you're. You're definitely one of the most competitive people I know, and I think one of the reasons we've had such a long friendship and uh have worked together so many times is the fact that you are that person, you are so competitive. I mean, and I mean that in every aspect of everything that you do, whether it was playing basketball against some young Korean athletes when we were training or amongst ourselves, and I think that's one of the things, of the many things, that have made you very successful.
Speaker 1How has your coaching philosophy changed over time, and were there any key insights that you took from your athletic experiences that helped shape how you mentor others?
Speaker 2You know, I think it's a great question and it's definitely changed. I mean, I think all of us go, oh, in the old days I did this, and I think that's all relative to the time era, because people said that in the nineties they were like oh, in the eighties we did this. In the seventies we did that, both athletes and coaches. So for me, one of the things that I'm most proud of is that I've been able to sustain over a couple of different eras you know the scoring eras, the push button eras, the beginning electronics to wherever we are right now. So I think you know, changing strategical and tactical within the eras is very difficult for a lot of people, because Tactical within the eras is very difficult for a lot of people because and again, you see it in other sports. So again, we're not unique to that. But I also think that I've been able to adapt to the cultures, to imprint my philosophy, but also understanding the culture of where we're at right now.
Speaker 2The kids today, not better or worse. They're different than when I was growing up and different than when my parents were growing up and different when their parents were growing up. So I don't really like to say better, bigger, more advantages, whatever. They're just different. And what I do know is this is a very fast society. I mean, we complain if our phone doesn't get the internet right away, and it wasn't too long ago that we were dialing up right and waiting for it to go. So I think some of the mentality of these kids and these parents right now are different.
Speaker 2So I think I've had a change with the culture and I'm not saying change as in adapt and accept their ways. I just have to understand their mindset. Instead of me just saying here's why we're gonna do something, I have to understand their mindset. Instead of me just saying here's why we're going to do something, I have to go to the other side and say what is it that they're looking for, what is it that they need and how do I get to them based on some common ground?
Speaker 2I mean, there's a reason why people come to me for my ideas and stuff like that. But I know that everyone's uniquely individualistic and I think that's also been one of my strengths and my abilities to not just stay in a box but be able to keep going where some people kind of get left behind and you even see, I'm gonna talk about this era people two years ago or three years ago, so I'm not even talking about 10 years ago or 20 years ago. You see people in a couple year period that are just obsolete right now. They're just gone. So I'm a little proud and you know that we've been able to, you know, to continue moving forward.
Speaker 1Well, coach, you mentioned something that kind of dovetails right into my next question, which is, you know, looking back on your athletic career and your initial Olympic experiences and you've been to, I mean, a ridiculous amount of Olympics. I've been to a bunch, but you've been to them in so many different capacities and been to three as an athlete for sure what are the specific changes that you've seen regarding the style of taekwondo since your initial foray with it, and where do you think that is heading? And you know, I mean we can talk a little bit about the athletes and techniques and the overall pace or the athleticism of the sport.
Evolution of Taekwondo in Sports
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, listen, if I have to categorize, I would say, you know, early sport taekwondo athletes were tough and a little bit crazy, right. I mean they just they would kick through anything, do anything, and they were just, they were really strong from that physical and mental standpoint. And then I think there got to a point, I'm going to say in the mid-90s, where it became very athletic, I'm going to say in the mid-90s where it became very athletic, and again not saying that they weren't but explosiveness and power and extreme timing.
Speaker 2I mean people barely flinched and they were getting hit and that took again timing, explosiveness and power. It was still a power-based sport. No-transcript, the coaches saying tell me the rules, tell me the system and I'll figure out drills to do for my athlete.
Speaker 2So in a weird way the athlete's abilities almost didn't matter. We have to kind of change however they're wired so that they can be successful in this era. The problem with that is a certain body type came out of that, a certain body type came out of that, a certain flexibility type came out of it, a certain mindset came out of it, and I don't know that that was for the betterment of the sport. I don't blame the athletes, I don't blame the coaches, I blame maybe the system and the organization of that. But since then, as you know, the fighting became a lot less physical when I say physical impact physical a lot more touch-based and kind of point-based because of the electronic scoring and there was, you know, because of that there was a lot of front leg fighting that they use they call fencing, and it's not a good look for our sport.
Speaker 2It's not a good look for our Olympic Taekwondo sport. I don't care what anybody says, I mean, I'm a product of it. Now I teach it. I don't think it's a good look, but I will say that the circle and the pendulum is moving a little bit. It's changing.
Speaker 2You're seeing countries like Korea again, like Iran, russians, uzbekistan, jordanians. You're seeing these countries that have amazing front legs, good back legs, they can double, they can spin, they can punch and their pace is very impressive. So I think you know, even three, four years ago, when standing on your front leg and just kind of fencing, when that was actually good enough to win a world championship, not anymore. People are walking through it, they're kicking through it. So all of a sudden you're starting to see a little physicality, a little explosion way more variety of techniques. So it's not where I would personally like it, but it's definitely getting better. So you know, seeing the eras, if I said there was a toughness, explosiveness, a more versatile athlete, probably right now. But it's definitely not. If I had to dream it up and build a sport that people would like to watch and that would be difficult to do. It's not what I'm seeing right now and I'll sum it up with this, because I'm sure there's another question.
Speaker 2I don't know many sports that you can go from this to this and be successful. But right now in sports, taekwondo, you can take about three years, maybe less, and you go from virtually a nobody to a somebody real quick. I've never seen that in boxing, like Olympic boxing or Olympic judo, olympic wrestling. It takes years to perfect this craft. But you're seeing, you know some of these kids. You know from 15 to 17,. All of a sudden they're world champions, they're Olympic champions, or I see them at a world level and they lose their first match and two years later they're winning Olympic gold medals. And again, that's a testament to them. But I also think it. For me it sends a red flag that something is off with the sport, something's off with the pinnacle of the sport. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. I think the technology has affected the sport in a bad way and it hasn't maximized the athleticism or the the skill of the game and it's the one. You know, I've been very vocal on the idea that the the game has de-evolved so that the techniques that you were seeing in 88 all the way through the mid 2000s were increasingly getting better and better and better, and and now they're not. But I do think, and I'll say one last thing before I ask the next question is just think about Arlene Lemus. Arlene Lemus, in 1988, was able to win with what I would call is a very similar to game that was happening a couple years ago Dominant front leg.
Speaker 1People didn't know what to do with it, they didn't know how to do it, and now she couldn't win and didn't win in 92, and I think that's going to happen to players now that don't evolve, and I think the players that do like you said, have best of both worlds. Then they'll be the guys to watch out for. But it leads me into the question beyond the impact on scoring, how has technology changed the way that you, or coaches in general, train your athletes, and do you have technology that you use, whether it's video review or the chest protectors or training targets that you've used to enhance the success of your athletes?
Speaker 2so I mean there's some things that I think are very positive, like, of course I mean, access to videos nowadays, access to international competitions. I mean it's literally videos nowadays, access to international competitions. I mean it's literally in the moment. You know, so you can see what you know, who won, how they won and why they won. So I think that just it speeds up your IQ a lot quicker, because you don't necessarily need five years of experience when you can watch all the best.
Speaker 2You know competitors competing. You know every event um two there's been um, well, it's not technology, but there's just way more competition. So people are getting a lot more bites at the apple, so they're improving or or going south. You know a lot quicker um than when we would fight. You know three, four major tournaments a year. You know at the at the best, um, I think uh, the, of course, the strength and conditioning. You have many more uh professionals out there that can go sports specific, from sport to sport to sport, to help you become the better athlete, and if you're a better athlete you're better at your craft. And so, um, where we were just lifting weights or lifting weights, now you have athletes there or, I'm sorry, you know sport professionals that can literally measure you find, your deficiencies, strengthen, and it's not always about stronger, it's about maintenance on your body so that you can train longer. So you know, you have the technology of getting information, you have the technology of increasing your body, and then, of course I mean there's abundance of self-help and sports psychologists out there, there's abundance of nutritionists. So all that kind of stuff is it just again makes us real athletes where before we were just in the gym, you know, trying to kick faster and kick better, but now if you have three trainings a day, you might have one taekwondo and one strict conditioning one. You know psychologically, and all of a sudden you're like I have I put in a good six hours not of physical work but of a very well-rounded athlete work. So, um, the other thing is this is kind of strange, because when I grew up you knew if you were kicking hard, if you're like folding the shield right, if you're knocking the opponent back Again, literally I don't.
Speaker 2When I'm teaching certain like techniques or certain scoring things, I'm like sometimes we hit, sometimes we score, and when we score it's just about placement. Sometimes it's not even about a proper mechanics of a chamber, an extension, a recoil and a recovery. It's really about putting your foot in the right spot. That's the bastardization of fighting. That, to me, is unacceptable. But I literally have to say do this in this moment because it can reward you for a point. So I guess what I'm saying is why kick so hard if it doesn't help? Why not just put your foot where you need to and that's enough? I don't get any more points if and from a combat sport. That doesn't make sense to me. It's horrible. So when you said a technology changes sport, from that standpoint it's horrible. I teach things and show things that again in any combat situation in the world would never be used, and so I just it doesn't. That I don't feel good about at all.
Speaker 1Well then, that brings me to my next question, which is rule evolution.
Speaker 1So and I'll state something before I say it so I was one of the creators of the multi-tiered sport rule system that we use now, along with Dr Stephen Kaepner, when I was on the technical committee and I was heading the education committee for the WT.
Speaker 1It was never our intention that this would be the outcome With the advent of the electronic scoring. It did exactly what you said we lost our ability to compete in the marketplace as a full contact martial art. That was powerful and whatever, and I agree with you on, just before I move on to the question that the idea that we athletes need to win so you shouldn't kick any harder than you need to to get a point, because we kick right as hard as we needed to get a point and unfortunately or fortunately that was incredibly hard, because you only got one or two points and we got no points for a punch. So for us it was a different game, so we did what we needed to do when in our era and I don't condemn athletes or coaches for what they do now, but let's talk about the future what do you think about? What rule changes would be necessary? What rule evolution could happen to better the presentation of the sport, the sport just in general?
Speaker 2So I'm going to go back to what you said. I too was on very high WT committees and I was at one meeting, one meeting, and I was there just kind of like I thought I'm going to be quiet, I'm going to listen, and all they did was like look at me, juan, juan, juan, and I just I think I talked for the whole meeting. That was it. That was my only meeting, because I think I made too much sense and questioned too many things. I think one thing that could just change everything, one thing that could change everything, and it's not. It's if you're going to kick again sport taekwondo you have to kick one time with your leg, that's it.
Speaker 2There's no double movements. There's no double movement. There's no double movements. You have to kick one and put it to the ground. You can kick one, kick again with the same leg. But and you say, well, yeah, but you know, low, high Rondo's kick, that's a martial art move. And while I agree, but because we bastardize it so much and we know that we can keep our foot up there for three times and barely touch the face and be rewarded for it, that's what we do. Like you said, why kick any harder?
Speaker 2But if everything was only a single shot, then speed, explosive and timing would come back automatically. You would stop having these short, narrow stance, you would have a strong stance. You would have to explode. Whether it's a back leg or front leg, people pick their leg up. You have to hit because you can't hang anything, and that's the term hang In our days or in any other sport. If you hang a punch, you're going to get countered so fast. You got a punch and it's the same thing. We can actually hold our leg up there, hope somebody comes in and kind of bump them in the middle and we're rewarded for that. If everything was a single shot automatically, things would come back like speed, explosiveness and power. I think that would change a lot.
Speaker 2There's three rules that I think are really good that they've done. Number one is if you fall, you fall, it's a deduction. That was good because I don't think you fell too much unless you're trying to knock somebody out with a spinning hook kick. But you know a lot of athletes fell on purpose to avoid they got rid of that Going out of bounds. Same thing, I don't go out of bounds too much, I believe in being attacking. So that nowadays you go out of bounds it's a deduction.
Speaker 2So I like those two things because you're forced to stay on your feet and stay in the ring and fighting. And then I like because of the electronics are so poorly made in the sense that they're just not at the same level as the athletes and the coaches. That's the honest truth. I like the ability to challenge the calls on the field. Sometimes the screens and the cameras aren't good technology, but I like that feeling that I don't feel helpless, right, that I just I'm at the mercy of everything else. So I think those three rules are good. I think if you just have direct shots, people will be fast again, people will be strong again. In a direct shot, you would have impact Just by the virtue of being speed. Having speed and explosiveness, impact is going to be more, so I think that'd be a good thing.
Speaker 1I'm going to take a turn for a minute and I agree with everything you said. I think those are great rules and great rule changes, and we can talk some more about that because I have some good and harder questions towards the end, but I didn't want to. I didn't spend enough time in the beginning talking about your illustrious Olympic career, and you've had an outstanding career. You were the most consistent athlete with regard to results and medals in the history of our sport. Was there a specific opponent that pushed you to your limits?
Speaker 1Or was there a victory that was particularly hard fought and won. That was deeply satisfying.
Overcoming a Korean Taekwondo Legend
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean I would say that. I mean, obviously, one of the gentlemen's that I had to fight for the Olympic you know, for my first Olympic team was Dae Sun Lee. He was, honestly somebody I looked up to, you know, as I was first coming up, because he was the boogeyman. He was the biggest and best in my division at that time. It wasn't even close, to be honest with you, matter of fact, I think the first time I fought him was in 1986. And the referees asked me not to fight him because I was so young and he was so good. And I remember looking at him, thinking this guy's going to kill me. I tell people this story. It was the one and only time in my life that I've been afraid to fight somebody. I mean, I'm just not that kind of guy, but I just thought I looked at this man and I'm like he's going to kill me. I mean it was a really strange feeling. But after he was that boogeyman and stuff like that, he became somebody that I was chasing and somebody that I thought about constantly. So when I finally did beat him, it was very satisfying.
Speaker 2I definitely had a. I didn't even know the man as a person, but I didn't like him. I don't use this term lightly either, but I hated him. I mean, he was the villain to me. He was the guy that I had to overcome, as fate would have it, when he he retired, he became the national team coach. I was forced to interact with him and I was better because he became my coach. I, I moved out to the olympic training center and I remember, um, you know, my family, my coach, back home, like why? And I, just I, I knew that he had a lot of experience and even though I was young and I was good, I knew I could learn from this man. And so I was wise enough at that time to say, you know, if I could go underneath him, be in his brain a little bit, you know, train with him and his athletes, that I could become better. And you know, we end up having a very, very, very good relationship, you know, almost like a brother slash, father slash coach to me. So, um, they certainly was that one guy. Um, and then it wasn't about an individual, it was about a country. The truth of the matter.
Speaker 2When I was growing up, korea was the biggest and the best. I mean, they arguably still are again. They're really on top again on the men's side. And so it was my, my life's dream to to to my life's dream to beat the Korean in a world championship, a world cup, olympic games. And I thought about that every single moment because they were just the best, especially in my category.
Speaker 2So I had a couple shots at that apple and got silver medal quite a few times, and oh it hurt, oh it hurt. And finally I was able to win one world cup, you know, quite a few times, and it hurt, oh it hurt. And finally I was able to win one World Cup, you know, beating the Korean along the way in the semifinals. And that was strange. I won the semifinals and everybody was giving me high fives and hugs and I'm like, oh man, I got a final here.
Speaker 2I can't be that guy that beats a Korean and then loses to whoever's next. You know again, I think that eras shift and there's some, you know, nowadays in certain divisions you could look at that country has the best players or this country has the best players. So for me it was Mr Lee and also, you know, the country of Korea. I really wanted to make my mark. I think everybody did at that time, you know. I mean, I know we had some Spanish players and Turkish Turkish players, some Mexican players, different athletes from around the world, but Korea was still Korea and it was important to beat them.
Speaker 1You had a great career in beating Korea. I know that was a big honor for you and it certainly sent a message to the world that you had arrived. You spoke about Dae Sung and I'll just add he was, and still is, probably one of the few individuals that loves the sport and loves to help people. So you won't see that in many coaches and athletes. Most people are very self-centered and very selfish. And then, when we spoke about those early days of people not being exactly fair, we found ourselves in the rule situation we find ourselves in, because they just couldn't stop cheating. They just could not stop cheating. They couldn't stop it and they couldn't trust the referees to score a match properly. So that's where we find ourselves, but that's a conversation for a longer day.
Building Great Athletes
Speaker 1I have some questions at the end about those kind of things. The thing I wanted to ask you about next was as an Olympic coach, is there a particular skill or quality that you look for in potential Olympic athletes? And if so, is it an obvious physical talent or do you need something? Is there that extra special? It goes back to the conversation of is athleticism? Are great athletes born, nurtured, or is it nature? Are they just born, or is it something you can teach them? So, in your opinion, what do you think those traits are, or do you think that you can make a great athlete?
Speaker 2I think it's both. And if I didn't think you can make a great athlete, I think it's, um, I think it's both. And if I didn't think I could make a great athlete, then I probably wouldn't do this, because I think you know I'd be lying if I don't see some tall, you know, lanky, flexible kid walk into my gym right now again, right now I'm talking to this era and I go oh my gosh, he has, oh my gosh, he has the tools. But that kid could be entitled, or that kid may have no work ethic, or first time he gets kicked in the face, he runs away and doesn't ever come back. So there are some obvious physical tools that you look and say they have the capacity. And then you have some other people that you say, wow, look at this. This kid doesn't say no for an answer. This kid is here every day. This kid is going to will himself into being good and I have different athletes like that. I mean I have, you know, one of my favorite you know athletes of all time is, you know, anthony Graff. He's a very successful athlete for mine in the past, very successful martial art business owner. Now just became a first time author and he just willed himself into being good. You know he like you. You know he wasn't the tallest guy, you know, I mean he didn't like to run, but he ran because he had to. He I remember one time I asked him something about food. He goes I don't eat because I like it, I eat because I need to, I need certain fuel, and that's it. And I was like that's pretty extreme, you know, I mean I really appreciated that. So I think it's a combination of both.
Speaker 2But I do believe that, listen, there are some special, unique unicorns out there. There's some Michael Jordans. I don't care what people say, he worked hard. No, no, no, he's just a unicorn. He's a unicorn. Tiger Woods he's a unicorn. Rafael Nadal unicorn. Don't tell me if I work just as hard as Rafael Nadal, I'm going to be able to play tennis like him. I'm sorry, that's not the anyone that's saying that to you is lying. That's just not the truth. So there's some unicorns, but for all of us other mortals, I believe that you can build yourself into a good athlete.
Speaker 2Some people have a little advantage here, some people have a little advantage there. You know, nurture versus nature we can debate that until the end of time. But I know as a coach, I believe if somebody will work hard for me, then I know that they're gonna improve. And if they're listening, then they're getting intellectually further. You know further along the other talents. You know they'll fall into line because if you work hard you're going to be willing to stretch. If you work hard you're going to be willing to lift weights. If you work hard you're going to be willing to kick more. So all those attributes go up.
Speaker 2If you're a thinker, you're able to listen and process and develop emotionally, develop an IQ, develop your mental makeup. So I know I'm kind of giving you maybe not a direct answer. I just think that there is both. There are some physical qualities that I look for and there are definitely some mental makeups that I look for. But I do believe that you can build a good fighter, a great fighter. I don't believe you can build a good fighter, a great fighter. I don't believe you can build or create a unicorn fighter. Some people just Do. You think you can build a Jimmy Kim?
Speaker 1No, I mean, and I agree with you, I think guys like Jimmy and Jungkook Young, perhaps, and Jung Myung-Sum, to name a Korean or two, and definitely a number of Iranian athletes and probably many more that you've seen, that I've seen those guys just had a unique ability, either sport, intellect and a combination of bodies, but Jimmy Kim was a combination of a body, a demeanor and a athleticism that was just unbelievable. And you talk about fearing someone. I feared Jimmy. I didn't fear anyone, but I feared Jimmy.
Speaker 2I look at a guy like him that came along not at the wrong era, at an era that it would have been awesome to see how he could have competed in this era, because I truly believe he could. It's like Jim Brown Jim Brown retired too early, but legend, he just ran through people, but we really don't know his full potential. To be honest with you, even though he was, he's considered one of the greatest of all times. But and Jimmy Kim, the same thing, like Jimmy Kim, was not supposed to happen. I mean, that guy is that big and that fast and that flexible it it. I know we're, you know we're being nostalgic, but that doesn't make sense. Like no, he was. It wasn't fair, it wasn't fair.
Speaker 1Jimmy wasn't fair. He was, uh, he had everything and and, including a personality that yeah allowed him to control that, because if I had had everything that jimmy had, there would have been many more dead bodies around.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1But anyway we'll get back to that. I mean, I want to move into the organizational influence and the role of the WT. So you've been around, you know as long as I've been around and we've seen the different evolutions of it. What do you think and I don't want to put you on the spot because you're still coaching, but can you think about any specific initiatives or programs that they've done that have really benefited athletes and moved the sport forward in a better direction?
Speaker 2Well, I mean, I think to. I know there's a lot of moving parts into this sport and the good part is, you know, we became into this sport and the good part is, you know, we've become a solid Olympic sport. I mean, I know, you know sometimes people want to say, oh we, you know we might, you know we could lose our spot at the Olympics. I just think we're too big of a world sport now in Asia, africa, europe, you know, south America, central America, north America. It's just, it's really a global sport, no matter what anybody says, it's just it's practiced everywhere. So I think from that standpoint we're so locked into the Olympics I think the parody of winning medals for the Olympic movement anyway, they love that they don't see just one reach. Why can't baseball?
Speaker 2get in, because Americans and Japanese and Koreans, you know, maybe play it. As you know, nobody else plays it, not Africa, not Europe. So I think, from that standpoint, the leaders in Taekwondo and I don't give one person, I give leaders I think they've helped us find our niche and find our footing on the Olympic platform. But I think there's a time and place for everything and while some people did that, I believe that people that know the sport, understand the sport and that are in the sport need to be the leaders right now. And we talked about evolution a while back with coaches and athletes, the political leaders or the administrative leaders. They don't evolve. They don't evolve and if they are evolving, they're not in tune with the product, and I think that's a huge issue. So if someone helped us at a certain time and they're not now, I think there needs to be that next change, right, who's that next person? Who's that next leader? And I don't think changing leadership is bad.
Speaker 2You know, I mean, if you do anything for too long, you get stale. I mean, listen, I was a national team coach for too long. You, you get stale. I mean, listen, I was a national team coach for a long time. I didn't retain my position. I moved on. I've helped some other people that I considered that I've mentored, and they're right there with me and they challenge me every day from coaching ideas, coaching philosophies, you know, whatever. I don't think that the wt has done that well enough. If you look, you got the same kind of people, sometimes shuffled around to different committees, the same kind of people running the sport. So I'm not pointing the finger that they're doing a good job or bad job.
Speaker 1I just think it's time to to flip the switch and change well you, you answered my other question that was going to ask next. So I'm going to move on to the idea of taekwondo spirit and I want to preface it by I'm not talking about martial art spirit or the martial art of Taekwondo. I'm talking more about how can Taekwondo retain its essence like? What can we do to ensure that the athletes understand the deeper principles of respect and courtesy and integrity that we learned the hard way by being team members together and you know we bowed because we had respect for ourselves. We didn't bow because we were told about. We bowed because we respected what we do and we respected the journey and we worked hard because of that. So what can we do to ensure that this current generation of athletes understands and maintains that, because it's in every other sport as well?
Maintaining Taekwondo Tradition and Identity
Speaker 1It's in soccer, it's in basketball. You're the first year on a basketball team, professional team You're carrying it. It doesn't matter what level of player you are, and if you listen to that Michael Jordan documentary, you hear it and you hear it in other documentaries. So what do you think that we can do to ensure that this next generation of athletes who don't, quite frankly, do some of the basic traditions that we used to do, and that's whether it's historical, knowing who people are, or bowing, or wearing uniforms, or coming to the gym and and doing it the way that I think it's a part of what we do?
Speaker 2well, you can say it the way it's supposed to be done, that I mean, that's, I think, um. You know what the ironic thing about this is. If you look at the the cream of the crop, they are extremely respectful and extremely appreciative and extremely knowledgeable of who's there now, who helped them get there and some of the historical things. Like when I travel around to again Asia and Europe and I see these top, I mean they're so humble and so respectful that I go wow, and I think the entry level people they're being taught well too. It's that big middle gap.
Speaker 2So if you've got a little elite level and a little entry level and you have this big middle level where people are entitled and they think they know what's going on. They know more than you, they know more than the next person, they have it all figured out. I think those are the ones that we need to hold on to the essence of taekwondo. I gave a speech at an Olympic coaches meeting one time and I said you know we need to. There's nothing wrong with having our identity. Our identity comes from an Asian martial arts and the Asian martial arts was about respect, courtesy, discipline. You know all these great tenets of taekwondo. Now if you abuse them and just kind of keep people down, then they're used for the wrong reason. But if you do it for the right reason, these are great human qualities and I don't think we should apologize for that. Taekwondo should be known for that. And you know, with this whole sport thing, people don't want to bow, they want to wear their baseball hats, they want to wear their gym shoes on the taekwondo floor. You don't see people wearing cleats on a basketball court. It's just, there's nothing wrong with keeping our essence and keeping our identity. And I asked the leadership what's our identity? Purple uniforms, holding our leg in the air Like wrestlers? Know what wrestlers are, boxers know what boxers are. Judo people? Know what judo people are? But take a look at people. We don't know who we are right now.
Speaker 2Because the fundamental essence of bowing, of respect, of understanding hierarchy and again, not in a negative standpoint, but just in our essence of what our martial art community is we are a sport that derived from a martial art, but any intelligent person will tell you I'm a coach, I'm an athlete, but I'm a martial artist first. And if they don't say that they're 100% lying and they're not worth anything that they're telling you, I truly believe that and I'll debate anybody, anybody, any of these Olympic coaches or whoever. If they came to me and say, no, I'm just a coach, I'm not a martial artist, then you're not even fit to be here. That's how strongly I feel about that. And listen, I wear sometimes casual clothes when we train and stuff like that.
Speaker 2But to see people wearing their gym shoes, their sneakers that they wear in the street on a taekwondo mat, I don't even know if there's a more atrocious bad thing to do in any martial art Walk, in any judo school walk into the mat. See how quickly you get choked out, you know. Go to mike swain's, go to a jujitsu place, walk into mine, yeah, I mean, I just I can't even imagine it, you know, but that's where we are. So I think that we have to be okay with the essence of taekwondo. I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of at all well, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1I'm gonna shift again, again, because I have a few more questions and then I want to talk to you about your program. But you have a lot of experience in USA Taekwondo and I worked with you there on the initial coaching program and we developed that and it was an amazing accomplishment. I think you should be proud of it because you did the lion's share of the technical work on that. I just helped facilitate it. We created something back then that I think still leaves a legacy today. But as we move forward in your experience, has the USA Taekwondo program been on an upward trajectory or do you see signs of a decline? And if so, you know what? What evidence is it or trends that are making you believe that? Now? I understand, um, and don't feel obligated to answer this question because, um, I know you're, you know you're coaching for other countries and if you feel it wouldn't be appropriate for you to answer it, but, um, in just generalities, I mean it's a worthy topic, you're an american, you won fought with our best.
Speaker 1You developed coaching systems for the best of the best and I know you have a love in your heart for the country and and usa. Taekwondo did a lot for all of us yes some point. But specifically now, um, what are your thoughts on their program and where they're going and what their trajectory is?
Speaker 2I'm not the best history buff but I also believe some historical moments. If you look in AAU Taekwondo changed to USTU, united States Taekwondo Union US Taekwondo Union was there for about 25 years, a little bit more, and there was a reset push button by the Olympic Committee in 2004-2005. And if you look at the time frames, so you look to now, you're about 20 years. You're about 20 years and I would argue and debate that there could be time for a reset button push For the organization and my Again, not talking about athletes, because I think we're getting some results. But Getting a result or some results Doesn't necessarily mean that the, the program or the movement or the sport Is healthy In this country. And when you look at the, the governing body here, I mean All you got to do is go to the tournaments to look at the numbers. They're they're, let me say, they're a little bit down. Let me look at the membership it's a little bit down.
Speaker 2Now we can blame a lot of things. You can grip COVID, you could blame. I don't care what you blame, but if it's happening on your watch, it's happening on your watch and so you know. The only thing that I can do is look at. You know team trial spots, for example in the United States, and I see open team trials. That means anybody can attend. And then you get there and nobody attends. There's divisions that they're uncontested. That's strange to me. Again, I'm not pointing fingers, but it's a red flag. Come on, it's got to be a red flag. So I'm not sure you know what direction they're going in. I mean, there's a couple of organizations in this country that are doing the opposite. They're flourishing. They're flourishing. Their membership is through the roof, their competitions have loads of people. So something is not right.
Speaker 2And I'm going to go back to what I said on the WT level. Right, I think that people in the positions of administratively people in administrative positions they're probably better off if they're from the sport in the sport understand the sport Real fast. I'm going to go back to 2005. In 2005, the US Olympic Committee put a five-person committee and four of the people of the committee were non-taekwondo people. And it was the right thing to do at that time, because they needed bylaws, cleaning up, they needed small sports, they needed accounting, they needed certain things and those people were able to give it to the sport, not the taekwondo people, and then, of course, that kind of shifted and, before you know it, you know taekwondo people.
Speaker 2But I feel like if you looked at the administrative part of taekwondo in the united states, there's a lot of people that probably are not either from the sport or don't have experience in the sport or are unproven in the sport.
Speaker 2You know, I don't know how you do that, I don't think that you know facebook would say oh, you never been in social media technology, oh, you come from car manufacturing, come on over here, have a seat at the table and tell us what to do it.
Speaker 2Just again, I'm not saying I know all the inner workings of it, but I think, based on historical eras, it could be close for a reset. I know that's scary for people, I get it, but I just think that there's a lot of people in this country and I'm not even pointing to myself, there's a lot of other people that I can name that I think would be really useful to the organization that are not being used, they're not being talked to, they're not even being. You know, having a seat at the table to even just have a beer and say what do you think about this? I don't, from what I know, talking to those type of people prominent people, big school owners, big supporters and just have no interaction. I think that's a shame. That's again another red flag for me why, why not?
Speaker 1You don't have to like them, you don't have to hire them, you know, but listen to them yeah there's no doubt, I mean and I and I, you know, I'll say it because it needs to be said and I can get much more detailed.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, much more the aau is certainly, uh, doing the job of the ngb better and and that's the grassroots development pipeline that fills and funnels your team trials. So when you go to a team trials team trials that you and I would go to a national championship there'd be 80 to 100 athletes six. So when you go to a team trials team trials that you and I would go to or national championship, there'd be 80 to 100 athletes, six or seven fights you go to a final team trials or a team trials itself, there'd be six guys. For a round robin it wouldn't be one guy showing up. Even Jimmy had five or six guys in his division, probably none of who really wanted to be there, but you, you know they tried right and so there's no doubt that there are others doing it and and, to speak frankly, there's a brain drain.
Speaker 1The usa taekwondo organization, um, doesn't have first tier, even second tier, coaches, um or school owners developing athletes in the program and and they're putting them in positions and you can see that evidence by their results internationally. With the exception of one or two players who, outside of the system, are developed and then come into the system and yield some results, they don't have systematic results and systematic results are when Spain or Iran or Turkey or Korea or Chinese Taipei, they put a system together and they're yielding On any given day you can go to a tournament. You know the Korean's going to be good because he came through that system. It's a systematic approach. In a country of 300, some odd 30 million people, we can't figure that out. It's challenging.
Speaker 2Let me say this. Let me say this young, because I'm not, I'm not embarrassed to say it, you know. I mean it's it because it's it's my opinion and I I'll love to debate with anybody, but the fact of the matter is, is um, having a, a location where you develop a few athletes, doesn't mean you have a program. You know, and I think that's that's the problem that we're facing right now. Like you said, we're systematically, we're not doing that. We have some this country's always going to have some, you know phenomenal athletes and they will be successful whether you sit in the chair or I sit in the chair. We have an Olympic gold medalist that, whatever reason, can't be coached by a national team coach, literally a person that's never trained her, never did anything with her, never coached at a world level. All sudden it's just sitting in your chair and the girl's winning. So we're, we're always going to have those top level athletes, but who's underneath? And if the program is not, if the organization is not developing those, like you said, systematically, then I think it's a little issue.
Speaker 2Even so, much like right now, there's two teams, two teams that have been developed, and when I look at these two different teams, I'm like. They have a coaching staff, they have athletes, they get funding, they go around to other countries to compete, they do training camps. And I think to myself, why are these two teams even alive? If the organization did their job, all those kids wouldn't be on these two teams, they would be in their program, but for some reason we haven't been able to capture that and so I um, I think, you know, I think, like I said this, this this administration is has had a number of different team trial selection procedures. They've had a number of programs, both regionals, um, uh, athlete identification. They've done a lot of different things that they started and they went like virtually nowhere. And you know, again, I don't know if they're not capable, they don't have enough time.
Speaker 1They don't have enough manpower.
Speaker 2I don't know what it is, but it hasn't been done. The truth of it, it hasn't been done.
Speaker 1So I think there's they haven't been held accountable. So I mean, like you said, before, every 20 years or so, somebody. Finally, you know, as you know, I was part of the original before 2005,. The reset button that was done before that, and some others, and I've sat on that board for a while. So there comes a point in time where individuals and organizations are too self-interested, and the best advice I ever got from someone in the Olympic movement was you should look at your service and ask yourself are you receiving more or is the organization benefiting more? And if the answer is the latter, then continue. If it's not, then you need to leave. So I can't say currently that the people that are serving are benefiting the organization. It's just based on numbers and throughput. And it's just based on numbers and throughput. And in a country with the Internet and TikTok and whatever else, you have.
Speaker 2My athletes don't even know the USAT exists. They could care less. I would even go as far as say look at salaries based on what would I say? Not the word production, but, like you said, development. I look at that as out of line.
National Differences and Talent Development
Speaker 1You know, like a good example of a nonprofit organization is always put in United Way and the reason is 80% of what they bring in to 90% makes it to the cause. And in USA, taekwondo, with what used to be a $3 million budget, that doesn't make it to the athletes and they're asking athletes to fund themselves and go to tournaments and the development. And then you have to kiss the ring and go to North Carolina and and and for whatever reason. But I'm going to move on to something a little bit different. You've worked with athletes all around the world. Are there strengths that you see in other athletes or in American athletes that set them apart in taekwondo? Is there a difference?
Speaker 1I know you've worked in Mexico, you've worked in Brazil currently and you've worked in the US and then you've been around the country with your. You know we haven't talked about it. I'm going to get to that in a moment, but your great success story would peak. But let's start with the international arena. Is there a difference between athletes internationally based on ethnicity? Your great success story with peak, but let's let's start with the international arena. Um, is there a difference between athletes internationally based on ethnicity?
Speaker 2um, that sets them apart, uh, whether it's American athletes, korean, chinese, brazilian, Um, you know again, because the, the, the sport is getting so diverse and you're getting so many different body. You know types from all around the world. It's hard to see that. But one thing I'll say about Americans, and I think I've learned this from other countries that I've gone to my wife is from another country, competed for another country, and some of the stories that she tells me about how they viewed us in those eras, I really believe that the United States always has this mindset of I can do it. You know what I'm saying. That's the American pride. Like we can win basketball, we can win hockey, we can win Miracle on Ice. We can always do something that we're not supposed to do. We have that American rocky, you know, against the world mentality and I really, when I go around people are like, oh, you Americans, you're so strong, you always think about these kind of things and I kind of looked and I'm like I didn't realize that other countries thought that about us, even when I work with other Olympic committees. Oh, your American mindset is so strong. I'm like, wow, I see how people view us and I think that's one of our, our, our superman powers and maybe other people's kryptonite. You know how they look at us, um, but I I do think that certain countries you know from a sporting event, a sporting culture, I should say they are more suited to excel than us. And so because taekwondo is firmly implanted in the olympic format you're looking at these countries that invest a lot into the olympic games. They may not have the nba, nfl, nhl, mlb you know mls, you know these big conglomerate, you know businesses but they have wrestling and they have judo and they have fencing and they have, you know, taekwondo and they have, you know, boxing. And so these countries, like a lot of the former russian countries, they invest highly into development at a young age and then these kids are starting to, you know, come up through their system and they're just taking the world by storm.
Speaker 2So for me, geographically, I'm seeing, like some of the eastern european countries that really value olympic sport, the, the Olympic spirit, as something that gives them their country pride, like when these kids I'm saying kids, young athletes win gold medals at the Olympics, they're standing with the president and not like me and you did, we went to the president for the White House Not like the NBA champions go get a photo op. No, they're with the president individually. You know, it's like the proudest moment of their life, and the president is happy to do so because that athlete is a beacon to the world for what they can do from their small country. And so I think that the programs in some of those countries are better suited than we are in as Americans.
Speaker 2I mean, taekwondo is this, you know, in this country, you know, heck, our swimmers sometimes could walk through Walmart and nobody would know who they are, our track and field athletes. I mean, that's again, it's a challenge for a lot of sports in America. But because of that they have much more funding and I love this word much more programming, because they literally have this cadet, junior, early senior programming that they yield results. You know, korea used to have it just out of a culture right, because Taekwondo was in their culture, their little middle schools and their junior highs and then their high schools and their college pro teams. They had a factory, you know, and all of a sudden the rest of the world caught up and they had to kind of get back to that factory and that's why they're doing well now, especially on the male side. I mean, they're really becoming formidable again on the male side.
Speaker 1Well, I agree with you, I don't disagree. And which leads me into my next question, which is the privatization of martial art programs and your success privatizing your program. So, over the years, I've watched and participated in different things that you've done and you know right now you could see a peak performance banner behind me, and I know that we bring you out to work with our best athletes because we realize the value of having the best and the brightest and somebody currently in the movement teaching the best techniques that are available. And so for me, you know, when I made that decision and asked you to do that, it was because I respected your ability and your technique and I understood that there was a time for me to do something different in the way I approached what I was doing and to give my athletes the best opportunities that they could have. So your success with peak performance, which started originally, you know, I know you did a ton of summer camps and a ton of regular camps and a ton of training camps for USA Taekwondo, and then we did all those coaching seminars and developed the idea.
Peak Performance Evolution and Future Vision
Speaker 1Now, but now, as you see yourself moving forward and having established and evolved peak performance centers and programs across the country. What is your next without stealing your thunder? What is your next evolution? Where do you see yourself evolving to next? To better serve the country or maybe the world? With all the technology that's available there's Zoom, there's videos, there's the podcast we're doing today and, like you said before, people can get information so much more quickly, like in minutes they can watch the world championships. We would have to wait for a videotape to come out for a year or two.
Speaker 2Next year, yeah, or we'd have to go, and film it ourselves.
Speaker 1So where do you see peak performance or your program growing to? And then, what do you see the next evolution being, whether it's technological in the way you deliver it, it outreach to who you deliver it, or or just your vision for it, because I think it's important to have people like you that are willing to continue that journey so I mean for me, let's start with peak performance and I'll kind of go to myself, you know, after.
Speaker 2But with peak performance, listen, it's been. It's been a slow, steady growth. You know I have 14 programs around the country. I know for sure I could have 40 if I wanted to. If it was only a business model, I could have 40. I don't know if it'd be as successful. I don't know if the coaches would be as watered down, I don't really know. So I've always kind of gone slowly, maybe to the detriment of myself, when it comes to financial, you know, reaping the benefits of that.
Speaker 2But I'm super proud that I've been able to replicate my programming so much now that I have other coaches that are producing Olympic level athletes, like in my wildest dreams. I wrote that on my business plan early on, but I didn't know if it could ever happen because at that moment Taekwondo was still very personality-driven. It was driven by the Herb Perez's, the Juan Bernal's, the Dae Sung Lee's at least in this country the Gene Lopez's, you know, at a moment. So for me to be able to replicate it and now looking at these guys that took these five-year-olds that are going to the olympics now, is like it's like a dream come true, and I think we've done that together and and I'm really proud of that because I know that it hasn't been done in this country, I don't know that it will be done in this country, I don't know if anybody else can do in this country. I could be wrong, but up until this moment in the history of taekwondo in this country it hasn't been replicated, except for by me. So I'm really proud of those guys that helped me to do that.
Speaker 2For me, a utopia for peak performance would be to have a place like img academy where athletes could I could truly pick athletes from around the country, around the world, give them the best coaches, the best training, the best you know facilities and just have them develop, let them focus again, like programming, like these other countries, just give them the best of the best. And it wasn't. You know, years ago nobody thought that could happen in tennis and in baseball and in soccer, and now it happens. But it's harder in this country because of the economic impact that it has. I mean it's much easier to find a location in Serbia to do that, to find a facility and do that, or Turkey or Russia, uzbekistan.
Speaker 2But in America it's a little bit difficult Space, you know, legalities, all that stuff but that would be a utopia to have a peak performance. And I say peak performance not that it would be for me peak performance, but just I like the name peak performance. I think that would be amazing. But I also think I would like to give back to this country, or the WT. Yes, I work for Brazil right now. I'm their head coach.
Speaker 2But I'm a realist and you mentioned being a competitor. I think that I could coach with anybody. I think I can train with anybody. I think I do a better job speaking than everybody, but there always has to be the next Juan Moreno. There should be the next Juan Moreno with training and coaching and speaking.
Speaker 2I could see myself moving up into an administrative role as a high performance director, a technical director and I think those two are separate and being able to build some of these programs and shape some of these programs and shape some of these underneath people, both coaches and athletes, so that the product is bigger and better in the end.
Speaker 2And remember how I talked about how I had to pull myself out of training so I could become a better coach. I think I need to pull myself out of training and coaching so I can help the betterment of the program, Kind of having my feet in both sides. I'm kind of forced to do that right now, but if I had my pick, that's what I would want to be as a high performance director, my first pick would be the United States, just because, again, I am American. But I'm also a businessman and I've also, you know, I've gotten a few jobs, you know, worldwide. And people ask me, why do you want to come over here? And my answer is always the same I love challenges. I mean, I'm not afraid of a fight, I'm not afraid to put myself in an uncomfortable situation to see if I can solve it. And I believe in myself and and the people that I know I could bring to the table that could. I could do some amazing things.
Speaker 1So I think. I think that's a sign of a great leader. So I think you know we've talked about this before, and the advice I always give people is you know, look at your life as stages in evolution. So when um I've had the honor of knowing um, all the olympic men, gold medalists, and my advice to them was always the same um, think about what you're going to do when this moment is done and what's your next evolution. And then, great coaches, think about what you're going to do when this moment is gone and you need to move up. You're in the role now of philosopher king, where it's time for you to nurture the next generation of great leaders and coaches and programs, and so I don't disagree with you on that, but I know that I've taken Go ahead.
Speaker 2You know, in sport, like I idolize, because I could be wrong, because I could be wrong but I would say the most prominent person that I have ever heard of and read is Pat Riley, because he was an NBA player. He was a hell of an NBA coach for three teams, both the Lakers, the Knicks and Miami. Now he's the president of, you know, basketball operations, you know for the Heat, and he sits in the. I mean again, he's not coaching, but he just sits there and he's. There isn't another franchise in the United States in any sport where they talk about the Heat culture, it's true like people don't leave the Heat, people wanna come to the Heat because of what they do, and I think that's from literally from the top, from Pat Riley. So if I could beat anybody I would love to do what he has done. And when I say that, just the stage from athlete to coach to administrative type of guy, sorry this is my I'm going to give you.
Speaker 1I know you've got to go, but I'm going to ask you just two questions, and my one question is going to be for you to visualize and imagine that the next Juan Moreno the young kid who's trying to unseat the champion is listening to this podcast and you were going to give him one piece of advice, one piece of wisdom that you've learned, and you were going to give him something that he could take forward. What would you say to the, the young juan moreno who had, um, that haircut that you got as a result of a, a bad mistake, and they turned it into something good? What is the piece of advice you would give to the next juan moreno?
Finding Freedom Through Discipline and Wisdom
Speaker 2I mean it sounds crazy, but, um, I saw this one coach that I like and he had as little slogan, but it actually comes from a movie that I like and it sounds so silly and so barbaric, but nobody cares, nobody cares. I mean, nobody cares if you're tired, nobody cares if you're hurt, nobody cares if you win, nobody cares if you lose. And I know that sounds mean and kind of like ugly, but I think it's freedom. I think it's freedom to do whatever you want to do or whatever you believe you can do. So I think I would start with that in a sense of breaking down, so that that young athlete can understand that, you know, people tend to think that they're bigger than they are and they think that everyone's looking at them. They look at me when I lose, they look at me when I win, they look at me when I win. That's not the truth.
Speaker 2People walk out of competitions every single day. People win the Super Bowl, you know, and then the next day people are already talking about the next thing. I mean, that's just the way society is nowadays, not just in America but in the world, so nobody cares. So if you, you can, you know, understand that for the positive part of it. Then you feel liberated to go and do some of those things and yes, I mean I would get into discipline and work ethic and and belief that you can do things and all that stuff, but in a strange way, have the freedom. Not, nobody cares about you, nobody's going to help you, no, nobody cares the the microscope is not on you. You should use that as a freedom to be whoever it is you're dreaming to be.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a very Buddhist. These days I'm reading a lot of Buddhism and you have to lose your sense of self and then, if you can't lose your sense of self, then that's when you're going to have a problem. The last question I'm always going to ask is I know you're a great student of great coaches and sport in general. Is there one book that you would ask people to read, or a book that was instrumental in your development as an athlete or a coach or an administrator that you would suggest people to read? Just one.
Speaker 2I mean, yeah, that's easy for me. I mean it's Sun Tzu, the Art of War and the Book of Five Rings, you know, it's just those are. If you read them, listen, they're not the sexy self-help books nowadays. I mean I got two books that I'm reading right now, you know, and they're good and they kind of trigger some emotion and trigger some new thoughts and I'm like, yeah, that's good. But those books on just fighting, on war, I mean you have to remember those were about life and death scenarios. Right, it wasn't about winning or losing or doing your. It was literally, you know, the Samurais. It was life or death.
Speaker 2And when you read some of those things and you know I remember early on highlighting the stuff, going, oh my gosh, that means this in today's vocabulary. I just for me they're just very inspiring and just very telling on how to view war and how to view fighting and how to have your mind and your emotions and your technique. It kind of just put everything together. So I know they seem kind of archaic, but I think there's a reason why you know Harvard's business, people are forced to read, you know, the Art of War by Sun Tzu, you know there's something more to it. So there's tons of books, you know, that are just amazing.
Speaker 2I'm reading one now, one called Magic Words. That was, you know, given to me by told to me by some one of my other close confidants, and there's some gems in it. You know, I mean some things that you go. Yeah, I know that there's authors, you know, like I said, pat Riley, rick Pitino, different successful people in the world Michael Jordan, phil Jackson that I've read all their books and I take little nuggets from that. But for me nothing replaces that one. You know from that.
Speaker 1But for me, nothing replaces that one. You know sun tzu, art of war and the book fire brings by. Well, I want to. I want to thank you again. I know I took way too much of your time. I'm sure we're going to speak again on another podcast.
Olympic Vision and Future Collaboration
Speaker 1we have tons of stuff that that we didn't cover today, but in the beginning of this we're going to list your uh accomplishments. It's certainly athletic accomplishments and the other things, as I do the preamble to it, but I wish you continued success. I look forward to your next incarnation of what you do, but right now, best wishes at the Brazil event and the Olympic Games.
Speaker 2Thank you so much, brother, and I appreciate all that you do and all that we're going to do together, ok thank you, love you too.
Speaker 1Talk to you soon. Well, I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. Coach moreno and I go back a long ways and he's an amazing individual with an amazing amount of energy but, more importantly, a vision for the future. He has served at every capacity within the olympic movement and, as a result, he has a great insight into various things that affect our sport on a day-to-day level. Look forward to this and more podcasts from us about other olympians and other people within our sport that are making a difference. You have been listening to a master's alliance production uncut podcast with juan Moreno and Herb Perez. Thanks for watching.