When Loyalty Becomes Subservience: What Are We Teaching Athletes?

Start with the truth: predictable brackets and politicized access are draining the joy out of elite Taekwondo. We gather as coaches and former athletes to unpack why the Grand Prix Challenge felt like an expensive detour, why the World Championships and U21 Worlds lacked edge, and how rankings turned into the goal instead of the game. The throughline isn’t athlete effort; it’s incentives, rules, and leadership choices that reward safe structures over real competition.

We get specific. The field needs uncertainty back, so we argue for a smarter bracket model—protect the top four or eight, then randomize the rest—to bring genuine tests from round one. We challenge the two-year Olympic point reset: shortening the cycle doesn’t level the field if you add more events and costs. And we drill into the funding gap at home, where academy athletes often receive support and similarly ranked independents don’t. If you qualify for a Grand Prix, you’re among the nation’s best—support should follow, regardless of training address.

Rules matter because identity matters. Forcing “action” with verbal commands and mutual deductions kills style diversity, the soul of fighting. Timing, distance, counterplay—these should be allowed to breathe. We welcome fewer head-touch protests and call for simpler scoring that reflects real impact: punch 1, body 2, head 3. Let fighters solve each other; stop choreographing the sport to appease a spectator who isn’t there.

We also talk culture. Cronyism and credential gatekeeping mute voices that could move Taekwondo forward. Collaboration between organizations should align calendars and raise standards, not police speech. That’s why we’re launching the SNS Awards—to celebrate athletes, coaches, programs, and administrators who push the sport in the right direction, while naming practices that hold it back.

If you care about fair pathways, honest scoring, and real development, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share with your team, and tell us the one change you’d make first. Your take might shape the next SNS Award—and the season ahead.

Transcript

New Year Energy And Consistency

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Story.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Welcome back. We got the high quality mix today. For whatever reason, last time we were cursed by probably the anti-sorry, not sorry crowd, and we couldn't get our usual quality of audio and video. But we are back. It is the sorry sorry not sorry podcast at the most amazing warehouse 15, uncut as usual. Happy New Year, Merry Christmas, Kwanzaa. Whatever you practice, may you enjoy your time here. Welcome back, Coach Moreno and Coach TJ. What's up? I'll go first. It'll be it'll be me. It'll be me. Oh, he didn't know. He didn't know what to do because I wasn't mean to him. He didn't know what to do. I know. I was waiting for the insult. It's crazy. Nothing but love. It's a new year. Plus, I have my totem with me. I have my totem. And I got two Buddhist beads on today. I'm I'm going hard. You might need them.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

You might need them.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

And I got my shirt on today, celebrating my son's final letter of acceptance when they send you the real letter because they send you a bill with it. You know, I'm just wearing it in honor of. Honor of. Go ahead, TJ.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

Nah, but happy almost new year. Super excited. I was stating on something right before we got on. Like, you know, they always talk about like the things that make people kind of better or like that kind of help you win. And they always talk about consistency. I'm so happy that we've been as consistent and as possible with this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

And we're at what over almost a year now, huh? Yeah, it's been a good, good, we have a good time, a lot of good people. We're doing our thing and we're trying to keep it real.

Mexico Trip And Spanish Immersion

SPEAKER_05 2:37

So I agree. Yeah, no, I I just found it pretty just I don't know what I was talking. I was talking to someone this weekend. I was like, man, they asked me how long I've been doing the podcast. And I was just like, it's been a while. It's been a while. So, like, again, another third, another day. Happy to be with you guys, happy to have the conversation. So, how are you, coach?

Six Years Of Podcasting Elsewhere

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I'm good. You know, I just got back from Mexico. I was there with my family and my and my wife's side. And uh really in uh Centro Asturias. It's uh it's a private club, super, super nice, super calm, relaxed. Everything was easy, amazing food, of course. Um, just good time with my family and stuff like that. And I it's funny because you know, got you know, for Spanish obviously is not my first language, and I love when I go there, you know, for 10 days and I'm just surrounded by Spanish-speaking people. And you know, by the end, I I really get a chance to converse and practice. And I swear if I was there for three months, man, I would be like really, really uh uh fluent, you know, definitely definitely conversational stuff like that. So that was fun for me to kind of be there and to, you know, kind of speak and eat and just relax and have fun. But TJ, I I I'm gonna say the same thing, you know, is thinking about how consistent we've been and you know the messages that we've been consistently, you know, kind of getting getting to the people. I'm really proud of it as well. And I know we can still go uh more. I was I actually had the pleasure, um, Herbert, I'm not young, I you don't really know this guy's name is Chava Perez. And um he was on the Mexican national team for many years. Actually, during you know, when TJ used to fight, and uh he was the national team heavyweight, and for years he's uh he's a really brilliant uh uh what do you call it? Uh what do you call it like a not a newspaper report, like an editorial kind of person. I think that's where his education is from. He's a brilliant writer. He used to write for a couple of different like uh websites and stuff like that. And the way he describes things, and then anyway, they invited me on their podcast. I've been on it once before. It's him and one of his good friends, Boris Carrillo, and uh who was also a national team member in Mexico, and they've been doing it for six years. And they asked me to come on. I I yeah, I mean, I know it's been a while, but I didn't realize it for six years. For six years, these guys have been banging down doors and and it and they they revolve it around all of taekwondo, but they do focus a lot on on the Mexican taekwondo. And it's interesting because when I was on, it was eerily similar to USAT, like as far as the administration, gone a ride, the the the production of I mean, Mexico has a great history too. When you want to talk about they might have one of the GOATs as an female athlete in Maria Espinosa, they've got multiple, you know, winners in the 58. I mean, they world champions. I mean, these guys have a great history of success. Obviously, we know the pipeline of athletes, we know the money that they have, the great resources as far as even coaching domestically. And they went O for O, O for O at the World Championships and O for O at the minus 21. It's like really tough for them right now. So we talked a lot about that, but it was cool because I was thinking a lot about our podcast. You know, we're going on our first year, and these guys have been at it for six years. So I'm like, it's cool, it's cool that other people are doing stuff, you know, like we're doing, and actually even longer. And again, championing great uh great uh great causes and great questions of of what's going on in the world. So it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_05 5:55

So I'm happy. I think it's good that um that technical people are general sharing information. I think, like I said, I think our culture is very much like drive forward, keep your head down, you know, figure it out this way, figure it out that way, and like we kind of just deal with it. But I'm happy that there's a lot of exchange and information, and you can see the similarities in you know, bad situations and bad performances and how those two are connected.

Cronyism, Credentials, And Gatekeeping

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Even this kid Chavez, he worked for Moss TKD. I say kid, younger than me, but young man, this man was uh worked for Moss TKD and uh listen, I believe he was let go by them, you know, and you know, he works for this, he was doing the stuff with his combat taekwondo, taekwondo combat that came out, you know, with Mr. Rick Shin and the WT banned him. They wouldn't credential him for it. He's been he's on all the world championships, all the pay everywhere. He's always got a credential, he's on the floor. He's a great photographer, he's always doing interviews with the athletes and stuff, blah, blah, blah. He had to go on his own, he had to pay a ticket to get in. Like it was weird how, again, this guy standing up for things, TJ, just doing what he thinks is right, and then all of a sudden somebody put a finger on it and all of a sudden just try to sweep away, which you know, I think I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit later, but that's the problem in this sport. Everybody wants to put their head down and be a yes man, or what do we say, kiss the ring or bend the knee. And there's nothing with obviously loyalty is such a great quality, but these guys are obedient to a fault.

SPEAKER_05 7:18

And you know, for me, I've always thought that it's not loyalty, no, like it's like you said, it's it's oh, it's obedience, it's it's uh let me shadow and collect the what I there we go.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Cronyism and subservience. So there's there's a difference between loyalty, cronyism, and subservience. And subservience is when you believe and act as if you are lesser than someone else. Cronyism is when you take that to the next level. That's where somebody takes care of you. And um, and at the end of the day, these guys are the worst of both because if you don't believe that you are equal to someone, then you can never be equal. And that was a problem with the old Korean leadership. We were always told, you don't understand, you don't know, you can't know because you're not Korean. One day you'll see it, you'll get the you'll get the sign from above, you'll be, you'll have an epiphany, you'll have a moment, you'll climb out of the cave like Lazarus. And I kept waiting for that day, and that day just didn't seem to come. And so I went out and got my own stuff. Now I find myself at the top of that particular pyramid, and I realized that day never comes. That's how you control people. And so right now you have a culture of cronyism, subservience, you have uh you have placating patrons of people because they just simply want a seat at the table. And so I'd laugh because I don't think I don't think I could get a credential from the WT, but I actually don't need it. I can get a credential from the IOC or any event I want to go to, I can get a credential from some of my friends in in the movement, but I wouldn't really want to see anything. There's nothing I want to see, but you guys have hit it right on the head. Right now we're in a culture of let's get along. There's a difference between get it row the boat together. Yes, yes, you don't have to love or hate a president or whatever, whether it's a national, international, whatever it is, or IF. But there's a there's a let's row the boat together. We got a goal. Let's get our goal and let's hit our goal. So let's row the boat together. But that doesn't mean your voice has to stop.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

That doesn't mean you're this is my point. Like people are putting their head down and and I guess you know you it's funny you say churism and and and and uh obedience, but it's funny because these people, I think a lot of people, I mean, they really believe that they're they're being uh loyal. No, they're no they're being groomed and and and and loyal. So they they've really lost the meaning of it. And I think more and more people.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Well, they are they are being groomed, just like a pedophile grooms his his victims. They're being they're being they're being groomed, they're just not being groomed for what they think they're being groomed for.

Loyalty Versus Subservience In Sport

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Well, I think it's hilarious is all the people that not all the people, the many, many people we were seeing that spoke out uh strongly against whether it's WT, USAT, AU, I don't care what it is, they had great, really big concerns. As soon as there's a little fish, a little bait there, boom, they forget about everything, and they're the best things in the world. And it's just to me the best thing in the world. It just drives me a little bit nuts.

SPEAKER_05 10:15

It's not even like they go and like they're like, this can be fixed, I can help with this. It comes from like night to day. Yeah, there's no concern, it's in the right direction. Yes, dominating 20,008. What I you know what I mean? We just mix it up and then we just fly with it just because they put that character in fact. Yeah, and most of the people that go in are always on their fight on their way into they're always on a fight, they're always like they're always in a fight, and then all of a sudden now they're in the organization and it's all good and let's clear the floor.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

So there was a book, there was a book that was recommended to me by the the guy who's pretty much running the USAT now, USA Taekwondo, whatever it's called. And he recommended this book to me. He brought it with him on a visit to my house, and it was called The 48 Laws of Power. And what are the laws of power you just described right now? If you have somebody who's giving you a hard time, co-opt them, offer them something so they become part of the people inside the tent, as opposed to the people, you know, pissing on the tent. So, and this individual, you know, I won't mention his name, Jay Warwick, read that book like it was the Bible. And he was always a person, he was he was first of all trained by two of the most ruthless politicians in the movement. Yang Dojiang, who was uh the the guy from Howard University, a judo guy, not a taekwondo guy, was the AAU original guy and president, and then Sang Li. And they're both of them groomed Jay. And Jay was groomed by them, and he thought he was smarter than them. And that was the only mistake he made. He made the mistake of thinking that he was smarter than either of those two, because the one thing they are are smart. They're both lawyers and smart, and Jay got done. He got bent over the table and he and he gladly took it. And but he read the book, The 48 Laws of Power, tried to get me to read it, and then every time something happens, this is their first thing. I can I can tell you the amount of phone calls I get, which are, hey, how's everything going? How's your family? How's this? How this? Oh, by the way, can you get me my fifth Don? I'm like, you don't have a fifth Don? What's it? But it's funny, young.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

I mean, I I mean I know privately I've told you a story, and TJ, you've heard me say this before. I've never said it publicly, which I don't really care. I will say it. I mean, maybe you've had it happen to you too, Young, but like, how many times I have I've had like the the the famous envelope you know put on the table to me, the famous envelope put in my my jacket, and I I take it out, and I I know it's money. I've been to places where they're like, no, just go sit over there and do it. And I'm like, well, what like what it's crazy how many times that has happened to me in the past. And you know, again, I've never ever been, I've never bent the knee or kissed the ring or in you know, went into that stuff. And and you know, it's funny because I I look at some of the people that where they are right now and it makes me wonder. I don't know. It makes me wonder if they took that envelope, if they sat in that room. You know what I'm saying? You you wonder. Yeah, you wonder again. So anyway, I mean that's not you know, that shouldn't be the topic right now, but I I do want to announce that. Well, unless you announce it, Young. We know next time.

Announcing The SNS Awards

SPEAKER_01 13:14

No, no, you announce it. I think it's a great idea. You tell the story. I love this. We got next year. We got some homework to do.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, we got some homework next year or next week. So for next year, they're gonna start off kind of in honor of 2026. The annual, maybe biannual, maybe quadrantly, maybe weekly. The SNS Awards. We are going to have the sorry, not sorry awards. We're gonna have uh a variety of topics from athletes to administrations to programs to countries to people that are just supporters. So we're gonna have the SNS, and if you haven't figured out that means sorry, not sorry.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

You've heard of the you've heard of the Grammys and the whammies and the blammies. Now you got the snook that's coming out. But I think we're gonna hit the good, the bad, and the ugly. And unfortunately, there's a lot of ugly, but there's a lot of good. It'd be a lot. So I think yeah, yeah, I think we've got to look at some of you know who's who's on the rise, who do we want to mention that's doing a great job. You've got to mention the other side, which is always what we spend most of our time thinking about, is how do we improve what we do. So we're gonna unfortunately have to call some people out. But the good news is, you know, we have a good sponsor for it, so we'll be sending actual awards. So we'll get the addresses necessary and send you your first ever SNS award, brother.

Grand Prix Challenge: Thumbs Down

SPEAKER_00 14:37

So I'll I'll put it out to people. I mean, we are we obviously we're gonna meet and kind of have some categories. If anybody wants a category or thinks a category would be interesting to hear, send it to us in one of the chats whenever you know you know Grandmaster Perez posted uh the the the show or Coach Jennings or myself, put it in there and we'll uh we'll take it into consideration. So it'll be fun. It's it's obviously it's lighthearted, but uh it'll be a good time. But anyway, guys, I thought since this is the last one of the year, I mean we got what a day, two days left. I know, I can't believe it. 2026 or 2025 is done, going to 2026. But I thought like we would kind of do like a year review, look at like just kind of quickly talk about the Grand Prix Series, the World Championships, the under 21, the WT point reset. This is the first time in history that we've had a two-year cycle. Um, maybe some, you know, again, touch on some stuff from USAT and AAU that we've talked about throughout the year and just kind of have an open free, you know, format and and go from there. Sound good?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Sounds good to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

So let's just real fast, you know. I mean thumbs up, let's make it easy. Thumbs up or thumbs down, Grand P series was successful as the WT thought. Count three. One, two, three.

unknown 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Sounds like a SNS reward coming.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 15:54

Why TJ? Hit it. I I still am trying to figure out the purpose of them. I I got nothing for you. Like I like I said, I like the original idea of it being outside of 70 when it was for the developmental guys, but then you just you threw these guys in there who are high-level players, high-level contenders, and it just kind of it just happened the way it's supposed to happen.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Remember, the first one qualifies you for the first grand prix in 2020. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that was the incentive, but they they kind of acted like just in case you didn't have enough points. Yeah, yeah. I said that from the beginning.

SPEAKER_05 16:25

But wouldn't that still be great as a outside of 70 and just leaving it like that? So you're getting your younger guys or your unranked guys potentially into a grand prix to be with the big guys.

SPEAKER_00 16:36

But we're just go like under uh uh uh from 35 and above. So if you got if you go if you bumped into the 32, you're already in. So keep fighting the the good guys, right? And let let this be a wild card for some random 36 to 1,000 ranked athlete to get into the grand priests, but they let all the top people in and they dominated, right? There was no there wasn't any new blood that came in there, and you were like, oh shit, this is awesome. So I think from that standpoint, it was useless, it was expensive, and yeah, I think that's about it. I mean, it was maybe it was I guess you didn't even need any highlights of the year. You had a world championship, you didn't need grand, you know what I'm saying? So I I'm gonna say it was a flop. It was nothing more than a big G2. Um, and it wasn't even big. I think the first one was kind of big, but like you had open this last one in Thailand, you had people like 15 people in a division and men's heavyweight. Like, come on. How do we get there? That's that's crazy. And and and the big a lot of the big countries were just kind of like whatever, whatever.

SPEAKER_05 17:48

That's about that last one. I mean, you probably knew by the first one, but by that last one, you know one of your guys are getting into the grand prize anyway. Yeah, like the only excitement would come from it being a 17-year-old who like hadn't done anything and went and you know qualified and got on a podium, and now they're going to their first grand prix. Like, tell show me that story, then I'd be like, mission accomplished, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

But other than that, and even people even for even for the countries around us in the Pan-American region, there was no young Mexican that did well, there's no young Canadian that did well, there's no young American that did well, there's no young Brazilian that did well. It was all either your top people or nothing. All your top people are nothing. And if probably if if there was one country that sent a bunch of people that shouldn't have sent, it was America. We sent a bunch of people, you know, because we were eligible to. I mean, that was the way the rules were written, that you know, five people could go. But like we had a lot of people that traveled that they went. They went far, they spent a lot of money, and they went, you know, zero rounds to two, and a lot of times they didn't score a point. A lot of times they didn't score a point. So, I mean, how much experience do they get? How much better did that make them?

SPEAKER_05 18:56

It's gotta be the world of just being able to go home and tell your parents, tell your family, tell your friends, tell people that like I fought at a Grand Prix challenge. Because there's no shot. I don't care what nobody says. There's no shot if you're not on the national team, if you're not in the mix, if you're not second, if you're not contending, if you're not a part, that you're gonna leave your where you are, fly over to Asia and beat these top level people at a Grand Prix challenge. Even their middle to bottom guys, there's no shot.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

No shot. No shot. I mean, listen, most countries don't have, I mean, past their first or second person, their third person's. I mean, it just it young, it was like that in our in our era too. Like we had one or two good people, maybe three rivals. TJ, your era was actually a little bit deeper, to be honest with you, in your category specifically, but young, two or three deep, right? And then it just fell off, you know what I'm saying?

Worlds And U21s Feel Watered Down

SPEAKER_01 19:47

But um, and I guess they gotta they gotta understand what the purpose of it is. So you have in sport promotion, you have a couple of different purposes. So if you gotta decide whether you're a performance organization or you're a sport. Sport organization that runs events. So if you're a sport organization that runs events, you run as many events as you can so that you can get more interest in the sport, more revenue for the cities. Second thing you try to do is you try to diversify where you hold those events and give more countries an opportunity to do smaller events or whatever. Or you decide that you're a performance organization, you're trying to maximize the opportunity for more countries and more athletes to get better. And if that's the goal, and that's what the WT's goal is supposed to be: maximizing performance while encouraging national participation in all the membered organizations, then you've got to create events that do that and create talent at the lower levels and give them opportunities. And if that doesn't seem like that's what was accomplished, but then again, you've got to remember who's running the WT, right? We have a drunkard running it, and he's guys listening to other people in the room. And the people in the room, like we said, it's a sycophantic kind of organization and uh syphophantic and and it doesn't manifest itself in being able to talk the truth. We don't have any truth talkers. We don't have anybody willing to speak truth to power. When you're in that situation, then you're gonna run into this problem where you have organizations that run events that cost cities and countries tons of money. They don't recoup that money, and then the organizations that are supposed to benefit from it don't benefit from it, and the athletes don't. So that's not a that's not a consistent sport performance mentality. Um, and there are other sports that do have that. Swimming has it, other sports that are well organized have it, tennis has it, soccer has it, right? Soccer, the uh under-21s, the under 17s, those are all for a reason. Hockey too, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Hockey's having it right now. All of them. Yeah, they're good.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

But Cho doesn't read the page to the bottom. And what I mean by that is he reads the title, and then just like some other people we know, he gets lost. And like, oh, I like uh I like the title. Oh, what is the Grand Prix? He got that from judo. Judo did it before Taekwondo, and then and then they started to do it. And to be honest, judo's suffering a little bit from the same sort of thing, too.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

All right, well, that's the let that go. So GP's down. Oh, we don't worlds, worlds. I mean, I I remember I I at the beginning, remember I asked, I go, is the world's remember a couple, well, quite a few episodes ago, I said, is the world championship as important as it was before? And I said no, because there's so many other things to fight. And listen, if I was a world champion, I'm like, dude, I'm a world champion. But I feel like this world championship came and went, and people were kind of like, eh. I for us, for the country I work for, Brazil, it was a grand slam for us. We had never had that kind of production. Um, we really had a great plan, and we could, you know, blah, blah, blah, and we were successful. But I can also say, just as a an outside person from 50, 40, whatever, 45 years of experience, I feel like it's um it's dulled down so much. And it's, I mean, TJ, you I loved it when you you I never thought of it like that. Ever since they made points in ranking, it's all about the points now. It's not about the actual result. It's just like how many points can I get and where I where am I at?

SPEAKER_05 23:14

We got people, I mean, like I said, not people, just in general, athletes and coaches, like we celebrate fourth and fifth and sixth because we got eight points, we got six points, we got seven points, we got past the first round. So there's some quote unquote success to be found in that, I guess, when when it comes to the whole ranking. But that that for me messed everything up a lot. I like I said, I still believe of the random bracket. If we could just do it right, if we could just really put everyone's name in the system and let it flop where it was, I think our game would go back to being exciting again. I do. I think that'd be a big change because all this the hiding of knowing one, two, three, and four are here, not hiding per se, but I want to see the the turmoil that number one and number one and number two fight first match. Yeah, I want to see the best two people go first, and then what happens from there on? You know what I mean? Because I think that's how you create champions. That's how someone that maybe had a couple breaks on the other side, they still gotta go win the whole thing. They still gotta get through the quarterfinals. I think we were in a tougher and better competitive situation when it was like that. Why that about the world about about it real quick about the world before I forget about the world championships? I think this started for me back in was it Baku to Mexico to was it Baku first? No, Mexico Baku.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Mexico Baku.

SPEAKER_05 24:23

Yeah, Mexico to Baku to this. I think this one was by far the worst, the worst level, the worst everything, the worst, the worst, the worst, in a sense of what it felt like. I mean, I know we all will mean you probably watched a lot, I know you were there, but I watched a lot of those matches and saw a lot of the energy and saw the people who won, who lost, how it happened, what the brackets looked like. You know, going on to your point of like some of these we needed good brackets to get decent results. And it's not like we did anything grand, but I think for me, this was the worst world championship as far as from a I don't I don't really talk shit about WT because I don't really know the ins and outs so deeply, but this has got to be something. Like the world championships did not feel like the world championship. And I think for me it started when with Mexico Baku backed the kind of I didn't think about that, TJ.

Rankings, Seeding, And Random Draw Debate

SPEAKER_00 25:08

And I I when you said it like that, I would have to agree. I I didn't put it in a I didn't line them up like that, but yeah. I mean, when I think about it, it just feels like it got can I use the word watered down a little bit weaker? And I maybe I was thinking since again, I mean, we're we're gonna talk about the two-year cycle. Maybe we can lead right into that. I I feel like that's be that it's because of that. You know, I bet you I I've said in 2027, I believe that world championship will be much more like because basically if you get a medal at the world championship in 2027, you have a very good shot at going uh to the Olympics via the rank, well, Olympic ranking. I could be wrong, but yeah, it definitely did feel a little watered down. Um I I listened I China did was a great host. I loved everything about the way they presented that that event. I I I don't think I've ever well, Mexico is pretty professional too. No, but or overall organization, I have to give China as far as like, you know, uh what do you call transportation, vending, food? I mean, it was pretty good. I mean, Mexico was awesome. Mexico was awesome. Baku wasn't so awesome, but definitely this was a little bit down, which kind of goes into the under-21. I was, man, I feel like I'm being super negative today. I I was very underwhelmed by that event about the number of people and the quality of under-21s. I know we spoke about having world champ real world champions fighting in a lesser world championship at the 21s, and you know, you had a couple repeats, um, but that one felt a little down for me as well. I know the US had a couple medals, and did Canada have any medals? No, Canada and Mexico, no medals. So that was Mexico, no, so USA and Brazil had a couple medals, but other than that, it wasn't uh wasn't really perfectly.

SPEAKER_05 26:58

I always say, like, you know, all the older guys were like, man, I wish I had an under-21 in my time. I wish we had that system in our time, but it wouldn't have looked like that. It wouldn't have looked like that. I think it would have been quite deep. It would have been a little bit more spicy. It looked for me when I watched those divisions, it was very lopsided. You saw I saw some middle of the ground guys make these other guys look like green belts. Yeah. And I'm not saying these, you know what I mean? Like with Lando, we had our great standouts that were just, he's just like the 58 Uranian kid. He's just miles better than everybody. Everybody. Let's accept it. It does, it doesn't make a difference where you put him. But I'm watching some other people that I'm gonna say middle of the ground, 60, 70, maybe a little bit lower, beating people so bad, it's like this guy had to get their black belt like last week. There's no way we marched them out there, you know? Some of those were bad. Oh, some of those were bad. Come on, some of some of those they were bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there was no competitiveness. It like they were just trying to figure out how the ESOx worked on the Hogu. Like it was their first, some of it looked like their first time out. TJ's good today. GJ's got to say you got laughing, bro. But it looked like their first time out, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

All right, sorry, not sorry.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

Yeah, and that's a that's unfortunate for something we call a world championship. Yeah, yeah, because I know that means something different in other sports. So you look at the under 21s. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

But used to be something different here. If you could you I asked, like you ask anybody back in the day, would you have rather have won the world championship or the Olympic championship? I I've got to be honest, I I world championship, right? The Olympics is different, good for different reasons, but yeah, I think that's flipped now, obviously. But you know, listen, I think. World championships was a harder tournament.

SPEAKER_05 28:42

Historically, I got a chance to do the university games and all that stuff like that and get one of those medals. But I think historically, even now, like that's the problem with me and like looking at this world championships. I knew everybody knew the world championships was the hardest term in the world. Yeah, it was you just don't know what you didn't know what you were gonna get, you didn't know what you're gonna walk into. But I think again, that had a lot to do with the the not-so-heaviness on the ranking. It had the you you just didn't know what was gonna pop up that day and then go through five matches, six matches, you know, to win a world championship.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Remember TJ originally when they came out the ranking? Listen, it's part of me goes, I love the ranking. Part of me goes, I love that everybody, every single person's is is is ranked based on you know one through 100, whoever's in the division. Um, I think it's it's weird, it's like the most fair, but I also think that it's also deteriorated the like you said, it's it's let the rich get rich and the poor get poor, right? The the top-ranked people are always hidden, you use the term, hidden from each other until that they got medals, and so they they were fine. Maybe if you go back to 2012, TJ, remember they only ranked the top eight. Eight, and then the other ones fell in just like you. I don't know what you were ranked, and all of a sudden you had to fight basically you were number 16 when it came into uh I wasn't basically I was 16.

SPEAKER_05 29:55

Cost Redo reached into this bag and grabbed our ball 16. I remember him walking back, and I knew I knew before he got back to the hotel. I'm like, I'm I'm fighting Servette, right?

Two-Year Cycle And Point Reset

SPEAKER_00 30:04

And he looks like I told the story. I don't know if we ever talked about this on the on when we did our pre-Olympic preparation, we had a fight day. So we had one of those things where we wait in in the morning. Um, we went to the gym, we had all the matches set up, we had the times in between, we had the food, we had people cheering against him, people cheering for him. We did it with him and Paige. We had this whole Olympic day, and I said, You're fighting Servet first. And so, in the practice, this was the practice. And he's like, Okay, so we had someone that was gonna fight like we can't have anyone fight like Servette, but that's what we we planned. And then for Paige, I said you're gonna fight the hometown hero, uh Jennings. Uh, what's her name? What was her first name? Sarah Jennings. She was uh a world champion, and you know, I'm like, you're gonna fight the the great Britain girl in the first match. TJ's gonna fight the best. So we go to the draws, yo. I go up there and pick a fucking ball. I come back, I look at TJ, TJ looks at me and he's like, okay. I pick Cervet and the the same, the same. I the both too. I was like nostroanis.

SPEAKER_05 31:14

Crazy, crazy, crazy, but it was and I knew it though. I knew it.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

No, but I'm getting to my point is imagine that let's just say they did the top eight and then from from nine to thirty, you could have uh a random Iranian or a Russian uh uh Italian, you know what I'm saying? Like it could be maybe do four. I like four, top four, yeah, you know, I'll be okay with that.

SPEAKER_05 31:37

Four to eight.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Yeah, that might be something that could be interesting, but definitely the when I look at the world championships in the under 21, it was a a little underwhelming. And again, I'm saying that you know, and you guys know how happy and proud I was after the world championships when we had four finals. I mean, that was just huge for the country I work for, it's never been done, and I was proud of all the things. For the Pan Am region, yes, I would agree. I would agree.

SPEAKER_05 32:02

That's like I know the country, obviously, Brazil is Brazil, you're Brazil, but that's that's huge for the Pan Am reason. I think we've we've lacked that level of like show-up at the world championship for a long time, you know, and that's that was huge. Yeah, I don't care what's it's just huge. So sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

No, no, so that I mean that's that. I mean, what do you think about the point reset? I mean, now again, this again, we're talking about the two-year cycles. I mean, young, you talked about something WT style and reading the headlines, and that's it, and this going to this. And again, I I feel like it was an experiment. And and and of course, the athletes and the coaches and the programs are the are the guinea pigs. Like, I'm not quite sure if this is gonna produce the best quad or the body of work. I don't know. I I feel like it's turned everything into a a short and who's hot right now. I I don't know. I I I I gotta think about it a little bit more, but I feel here's what I feel like. The first two years were like so blah that nobody really cared. We just talked about it in both world championships, right? We just feel like people are like I didn't see some countries like biting down on their lip like our guys need to do this, the ones that historically did. So I don't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing for programs in general. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 33:18

Do you think it do you uh do you think it helps or um hurts the smaller countries? So I think originally I was thinking in my brain, I'm going, it has to hurt them, right? Over four years, you get your points. I know I know Penn region countries in general, the smaller countries don't travel as well. Yeah, they don't travel as much as some other countries. So I'm going, does it I'm I'm stuck in between whether it helps them or makes it easier for them to manage two years with less money or less ability, or does it extend it and make it a little bit worse because you're restarting over?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Economically, it's it's easier, right? I mean, like they got my I mean there's no way that most countries in the Pan-American region can sustain four years of point building, they'll get outspent. So, in a if you're just putting up a program and a diagram, I would say it's much if if I'm Peru, if I'm Argentina, I got much better chance to like make a run at it in two years than I did in four years, because I'm gonna get outspent.

SPEAKER_05 34:11

Um, so I think it probably just added more events though, they add more things, they add more events, they add more situations that cost more money, it's just in a shorter span of time.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

And that's that's where I kind of fell. And yeah, that's where I'll go to what you know Grandmaster Perez is talking about. They they read the headlines and they do it, but then you're right, TJ. So I just said it makes more sense if they're two years, but they screwed it up because they have. I mean, I I I can't remember. I did it before in the next two years, there's like 540 points available. Like again, Argentina and some of these Columbia, maybe I'm I don't know. I shouldn't talk about those federations because I don't know what their budget is, but historically, they haven't been traveling to all those things. So I'm gonna guess they won't have enough money. Like, I mean, they didn't send anybody to like Argentina. Did Columbia send anybody to the under 21s? Like the Pan Am region was not well represented at the Pan Am at the minus 21 World Championships. So I don't know. I think you're right. They added too many things, and uh, so ultimately it might be the same thing, it might be a wash. You could have just used the four years and had a more consistent who's who's winning versus eh, we'll throw these first two years away and let's make a sprint. I think I think it's the rich again, the rich will get rich. Those those best countries, I mean, uh Iran, Russia, Korea, uh China, Turkey, they're all gonna come to you, you know, all those European countries are gonna get their points a lot easier than the Pan American. They'll all be up at top again, and we'll all be looking for the back, trying to catch up. I mean.

SPEAKER_05 35:46

Yeah, I'll go back to, I mean, I mean, I know we probably talked about it before a little bit. Probably never actually talked about it in the slide. I think when we started this podcast, it was pretty normal for like the regular Grand Prix. But even having the Grand Prix, that eliminated a lot of people, just just in even I know it's a top 32, but how hard it was at the beginning to get into the top 32.

SPEAKER_04 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:03

So automatically, I remember when some of my WCAP guys got into the Grand Prix, it was a big deal for even our internal organization. Because I'm like, I can, and I'm being honest, I can go bag 15 points right now by winning one match or losing one match. And that at the time was unfortunately was important. You know, obviously we go there to run deep and get on the podium, but those tournaments mattered a lot in the long run of just being involved. So I don't know. I think the adding the grand prize made it maybe that's what helped water down the world championships too, having those grand prix. I remember grand prix were all the hype at one point. You had to win a grand prix.

Funding Gaps And Grand Prix Access

SPEAKER_00 36:36

I've never talked real financially to like France. Let's use France when my friend Rosendo was a coach there. But I don't think they ever had an issue of saying we need to attend this thing to get our athletes into the top six. But I know in the United States that was a problem. So, for example, you TJ WCAP. You're if you had to pay for it, your people had to pay for it. It wasn't like the organization paid for it, you know.

SPEAKER_05 36:58

So when I look at it, it's so crazy. I remember us competing. When I competed, the organization paid for us to go to the Grand Prix. That was like the one thing they did pay for, correct? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And those were those treated like almost a team event. I think they got away from that when the especially when I was in WCAP, they used it as a I think a budget thing, or it's not a national team trip. I'm like, and I told them I'm like, you're looking at the best people in your country going to that one of the highest level tournaments in the world, and you're showing you guys at one point it was bad. They didn't, we we didn't even have um the the medical side on our side. Yeah, they didn't even want to help the athletes outside of the group of athletes going at that point.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

That's crazy, TJ. So, yeah, to your point, like when you guys started doing it, if you if anybody from America made it into the grand prize, which was a hard thing to do, you were supported by the organization because it wasn't 16 people, it was eight, 10 people. And it's the same thing now. Listen, if athletes get into the Grand Prix, you're one of the better people. Theoretically, you're one of the better people in the world. I don't care if you're 31 or two, the organization is to support that. How is 32 supposed to get better if he doesn't have support or she doesn't have support? So it's just such a it's a weird thing. And you're right, I remember when this is something that I don't like that the I mean, we'll talk about it in a second, second, but the academy people will get their way paid for, but maybe another national team person won't. I'm a national. I know, and and even if uh not that I accept this, okay. I had to pay on my own. You're telling me the doctor can't take me? You can't mean the doctor can't walk out and to like that's freaking ridiculous.

SPEAKER_05 38:38

I mean, to think it was always a it was always a weird situation or not or weird thing, you know. And some of the doctors stood up, you know. There were some good doc the um people that kind of came to help, but it was like a thing. It was like a thing. It was two separate teams and it wasn't a national team. And I mean, to the point of I'm paying for my badge to be there, even though I think half of those fucking badges were free anyways. Like, I ain't stupid, I just ain't gonna argue over because it ain't my money either at that point. I gotta keep my job happy as well. But there was a lot of things that made no sense from just that point. Yeah, yeah. You gotta be one of the best people in our country if you're at the grand prix.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

I would like to see that and moving forward, just for again, I have no stake in an American athletes right now. Um, but I think it'd be a good thing if you make it to the grand prix in 2026, you should be funded by the uh organization.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

It's gotta become part of their high performance plan, right?

SPEAKER_05 39:27

So the uh which they should hopefully they're still doing, but if they put it as part of their model how do you decide to forego a think about that, you're foregoing a WT ranked person, like this WT sentence person is number 27, number 25, number 23, number 21, one of the best people in their organization. And you're like, ah, no funding for you because you're not from you're not training here. You're a but you're also on the national team. Yeah, but you're you're also you're also a Panam Games medalist. Like, there's so many things.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

You gotta remember who's gotta say it, it's gotta be part of so. The athletes or the coaches have to complain to the USOC and say they're overlooking this thing. And if they don't, then you're nobody's going to notice because the organization right now is so short-staffed in review of these things that they're not looking at it that hard. They're saying, okay, what's your plan? This is your plan. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

But you know what the problem is, Young? Is like again, we had an old. I was lucky because when I was on the AAC, you were on the ASC and people older than a lot older than me. So I I learned from you guys. But there's three athletes that are probably under the age of 22, 21, you know, that are high well, two boys that are highly ranked. They're they're they're a perfect example. National team, top 15, top 10, and 11 in the world. If they weren't at the academy, they would have to pay their own away. But the reason I think I I bet you privately, if you talk to those two, the reason they're there is so they can get support. Because if not, they can't afford it by themselves. You know what I'm saying, TJ? And there's probably a few other athletes that are in the same boat. So anyway, I that's all of them.

Academy Support, Independence, And Results

SPEAKER_05 41:04

Like, I don't know about I'm not gonna say all of them. I know some of those kids have been there for a long time. Don't don't let me get it twisted. I think that's a big chunk of them. I mean, look at you look at Michael, I'll say you look at Michael, Michael's uh World Championship medal. That's not coming from production of anything he's done there. That's right, that's hot off the press and leaving somewhere else and going to get him out. If it wasn't for him, if it wasn't for the victors of the world, we'd look worse. Yeah, we leave world championships with one medal in heavyweight. You know what I mean? Like, think about that. These aren't these aren't guys or something. You can say, oh, well, we brought him into our program and we we're funding them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the fuck what? At that point, it makes no sense. And like, I didn't think about this way until Grandmaster said it, but like that whole funding on the bubble thing, funding these guys. I mean, you look at a kid, how do you not offer him support first? Why does it have to be do this, you get this, and it has to be this way? Because I don't care what you're saying. I said it before, you're changing an entire system, you're changing an entire belief system, you're changing an entire training system, and you're changing an entire, like, even when you go to language and everything, at the points in which you're doing it, it just makes no sense. Offer some support. And you gotta again, I say it every single time, and I know people call maybe they say I'm biased, but he's in Miami, Florida, with one of the best coaches in the world, and you first thing you do is pull him from the room is silly. I'm sorry. You're not, it's not like we're talking about a coach that's on the corner of a strip mall that just happened to have this hot kid that just kind of does his shit. You have a coach who's walked people through the Olympic process over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

I know. And it's still not enough. That's the crazy part because you said, like you said, give them some resources. If it doesn't pan out, then you say, Listen, why don't you come over here and try this? And said it's gotta be all or nothing. And that's the that's the unfortunate part for all those guys. And you know, I know these kids are strong and they'll say, Whatever it takes, I'll do. And and I and I like that. We were like that too. All of us were the same way. Whatever it takes, despite, I'll figure it out. Or when you have stuff like I'll figure out the room, when you have to say stuff like uh I'm not gonna let them bring me down, like that's not the right reason to do something, that's not the right reason to go places, and then again, we will see when it's all even to have your guard up, even to have your guard up that hot going on is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

Yeah, like I've moved, I've switched training situations. I that's how I came to Miami, but it wasn't I wasn't going like, oh, I'm not gonna let them change me. Yeah, oh, I hope this doesn't affect no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

No, no, that's a it's a bad place to be, and like in even even, you know, it's funny with uh a good result at the world championships, you know, you've had three bad results back to back to back at grand prize, losing a round one and a uh under 21. That's that's that's a direct result of of a changing of the system, and that didn't need to happen, especially going back to what we just talked about. When the points are gonna reset, let him write it out. Let him write it out. Let's see what the kid's gonna do. Maybe he could have done well at these grand prize, maybe he could have done well at the junior world championship. You know, partly you can almost say that world championship medal was of wasn't as strong as we thought it was if he went back to under 21 and lost first match. Like I'm listening, I'm proud that you know the the the kid won a medal at the world. That's ridiculous. That's awesome, awesome, awesome. It's a lifetime achievement for some people. But when it's backed up by two first-round match losses, two first-round tournaments losses in a row, it kind of makes you kind of go, man, maybe it's the system right now.

SPEAKER_05 44:26

That's that whole group of 68. Wasn't it four new world champions in 68 if I'm not mistaken? What happened? All four were new world champions. There was four new world championship champions in 68, correct? All four was their first world championship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got you, I got you. Like gold subverbronze. Yeah, yeah, like like you know, I don't, and again, that's because I think some of the big guys not there anymore, blah blah blah blah. But I mean, I'm not I'm not shocked. We know 68, I know 68's tough. You know, we we know 68's tough, you know. Even bad 68s are good 68s. Exactly. Um, so it's unfortunate. I think it's hard because we all know the value of a world championship medal, we can say it in our heads, but we all watch the world championships too, and we know it wasn't the same value as what it's been in previously. It didn't it didn't feel the same from any aspect of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

So let's change it up to the uh um to the the quick just quick recap of the new rules like coming in. If I hear, uh I know I'm gonna hear it, so I shouldn't say it, but if I hear we're trying to make this sport more dynamic and spectator friendly, I'm gonna fucking throw up because number one, we don't have any fans. Everybody in the stands are taekwondo people, so they know what's going on. They're acting like, you know, my my grandma's coming like, well, so how do they score? No one does that. Shut up, not even at the Olympics. And when they come to the Olympics, they got money and they're just going to have the Olympic experience. They don't give two shits about Taekwondo. So I hate that trying to make it more dynamic and spectator friendly. It's just such a cop out, what is that? Uh what a sound bite. It's like a sound bite nowadays because the what does that mean though?

SPEAKER_05 46:05

How do you how do you force a fight and again I like fighting, but how do you force a fight to be more dynamic? How do you force a style to be more dynamic? You take then we're not fighting anymore. And I know this this is you're gonna go off in a second, I'll get you. But like I this is that we're not even talking about fighting anymore. You're telling me you want it to look a certain way. You that's acting, that is, that is scripted, that is controlled. Like, I I've had a lot of tough matches where the kid I had people that were tough for me to fight because they didn't fight. Yeah, and that's what made that person good. Yeah, because that was their style. Yeah, they waited, they waited, they stayed on the outside, and it was tough to get to them. And if you didn't, you found yourself in a position you could lose the match.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

If you messed up, if you messed up a second because you got over anxious and they scored that count, you lost one to zero. That's you know what? I love that even about UFC and MMA right now, right? Because they got guys that will take you down and they'll hold you down and they'll grind you out, and they'll and you got guys that can stand up and it's a it's a style thing. That let's see who's the best. And just when you think that this guy has got this crazy cardio can take you down at will, some do figures it out and just catches you coming in or or sprawls or doesn't let you take them down. It just happened with Marab and Peter Jan. Peter Jan. Yeah, Marab was what he just won four in a row, whatever. He he's unstoppable. And Peter Jan came, Muay Thai guy, and whooped his ass. And to your point, TJ, you know, Young, you weren't the most dynamic fighter, but you had amazing timing, you had amazing distance, and you you made people fight your pace. And when you did that, you won and they lost. And when you got out of it, they won and you lost. And that's that's sport, that's American football, that's soccer. You don't see that. That's you don't see you. You like soccer so much, young. You don't you don't see uh FIFA going, you know what? We don't like the ticky-tac style of Spain where they pass the ball. We don't like the way Germany used to hold the ball in the back and go back and we're gonna change the rules to say you can't do that for five seconds, right? No, the game is the game, the beautiful game is the beautiful game, the fight game. Your defense, I'm offense. Your front leg, I'm back leg. You're straight, I'm spin. That's fighting, man.

SPEAKER_05 48:14

So when that's what uh says that's that happened with this when we got this gone from this fighting, they were gonna say fight after five seconds. Like, how can you tell me when I have to fight? Why is my coach here? Why did I train if you can dictate the pace of the match? Maybe my cardio ain't there. Maybe I just started training a month ago, and I gotta be smarter than you.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Hey, you may have just got your black belt three weeks ago, like you said. You gotta check it out.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

Maybe you just got your black belt three weeks ago and you out there trying to high block and stuff. You don't know what the plan is. So, how can you start giving people telling them to fight? That's my point. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Yeah, yeah.

Rule Changes And The Myth Of “Spectator Friendly”

SPEAKER_05 48:46

And then if nobody does anything, they both get deductions. What do you you get in the middle, put a hope on it, and you you tell them you you you fight. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

They resurrect, they they resurrect that rule. They resurrected that rule like 20 times. It's that rule, they've had that rule, they've always had that rule. They have people that don't understand. No, no, they've always had it, they just do it differently, and they've always tried to make it a thing, but they can never figure out how to make it a thing. And so they're trying this is non-fighters trying to make fighting exciting. And so though you you can't force people, you can force them, but then you destroy the game, as Coach Moreno said. You do you're killing the game.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

So you gotta allow people to fight the game, and if they can figure it out, you know, that's why boxing is the beautiful that's why boxing is a sweet science because like even the you just said TJ, I can't move three back steps back. Oh, you're avoiding the fight. No, that's called the guy's coming at me with his leg in the air, like boxing. You never see, you never see the the referee go, fight guys, fight. No, one guy holds him, one guy ties him up. Oh, boring fight. The guy's like, I don't want to stand outside, I want to tie him up. You see, Mayweather moving around using the whole ring. That's there's a ring.

SPEAKER_01 49:56

Mayweather's the perfect may Mayweather's a perfect example of that. Mayweather, Mayweather was a frustrating boxer. He didn't have knockout power. He wasn't, he wasn't a punch, he really wasn't a great puncher. Nope. And but he had an amazing ability to that was Steven Lopez. Steven Lopez sucked at taekwondo when he first started. He was only good at frustrating people from allowing them to do taekwondo. He became a better taekwondo fighter because he had to. Yeah, and he became a great taekwondo fighter. So I can't speak poorly about him, but he was terrible. He was horrible to watch, frustrating to watch. He didn't do anything that mattered.

SPEAKER_05 50:31

That's why.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

I wasn't a lot of fun to watch.

SPEAKER_05 50:36

That's why any rule in our sport has changed. Think about going back to like, was it maybe 2013, 2014? Maybe when you could just hold your leg in the air the entire time if you wanted to. Think about that. That took someone going, hey, that's not the right thing to do. You can't do that. But maybe again, and it sucked for me, by the way. That was when 68 went from my height to like six, seven and a half, like on a normal basis. Like it really sucked because it's hard to get in. Yeah. But someone had to go, hey, let's make it more dynamic, let's make it this, let's not allow people to do this. I still think that's wrong. I don't think that's the right thing. You can't limit what people do based off of a rule set you're trying to create. Like, it makes no sense.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

You should have a natural progression. Look, it if let's say you just said, hold your leg up there for 20 for the whole two minutes. If you that's what you can do, somebody would figure out how to spin or whatever, and that person would put their foot down. It's the rule of sport, it's the law of fighting. Somebody will figure out what you do, you know. So if we just you can have the rules, you can't punch in the face, you can't kick below the waist, go do what you do. Because if they can do it with you can't hold your leg up for three seconds, why shouldn't they say you can't twist kick, you can't invert your knee. Like that's all fine. So it's just weird. And Hyung, you actually said a man, I I'm I'm giving you a big one.

SPEAKER_05 51:48

That's whoever's pulling the strings out.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

I was just gonna say, you young, you said it to TJ credited you. Hyung, I'm gonna give you credit. This is non-fighters determining how we fight, non-fighters determining how we fight. You know, it's like it's like sometimes referees when they I I move back and they're like, You're avoiding the fight. I'm like, dude, the guy's foot is in my face. You're supposed to what am I supposed to do? Have you ever been kicked in the face? Have you ever like I Yeah, yeah, anyway.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

You know what you'll find, you know where you'll find your difference? And I think again, I say I think you're Europe and just seeing some of the messages and hearing some of the talk, this is where you'll find your difference. There's a group of people I I was super happy about going one, two, three. One point for a punch, two points for the body, three points for the head. Let's go back and make it basic. But there's people that went crazy about oh no, we need the five points for the spin and the four points for this. And we went from going one, two, three all the way up to six. Yeah. So you tell me what where how did that conversation get? Where did that conversation go at rocks?

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah, and this wasn't just like asking. No, they were watching MTV's basketball, Rocks versus Jocks, where they had the 25 point, they had the 25 point shot. It's crazy though. That was showed then having ADD. Actually, funny I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 53:05

TJ, you say that it's funny because when people go, oh, the average point is uh 15 points a match. If you actually took it down and just said, like you said, how many times they kick? I bet you would be six, four to six, eight, seven. You know what I'm saying? Like real points being scored. I mean, listen, I've had kids that have won a match, a spinhook kick, spinhook kick, and a and a and a sidekick. They kick, they score three points. And I and I'm like, and they won 12 to zero. And I'm kind of like I hate it.

SPEAKER_05 53:35

I hate it. And like, and I think with the the only thing I'm happy about with the taking away, it's about the rules, taking away the head thing. The protest, because maybe we won't get so much stupid stuff where someone throws an ugly spinhook kick at the end and it nips the ear and like they jump up in the air. And that would be like.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

I agree with you, TJ. I know a couple of my peers don't don't like that because they're like, what about the big shot? I'm like, the big shot, I'll give you a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04 53:57

What about that small shot?

SPEAKER_00 53:58

But it's there's per capita, there's way more small shots. There are scrapes. And so for that, TJ, I've won matches and I've lost matches. And either way, I've never felt I've never felt good. Yes, we I've never done that. I'm like, we played the system, but I'll be happy when that's gone. The little scratches. I mean, I I really and my kid touches their face, I'm like, I can't believe it. He touched his face. No, no, no, no. I'm not that dude.

SPEAKER_05 54:23

That changes a lot. Yeah, yeah. I think it changes a lot. I think it again, I think it's just from a fighting standpoint. I think we go back into those close matches ending in cardio decisions. He's got more gas as opposed to the three and a half minute video review for no guy for no reason. Yep. Five minutes later, you know.

Style Diversity And Letting Fights Breathe

SPEAKER_00 54:41

Hey, let's uh let's let that go and kind of maybe wrap up just on the last, you know, maybe something that kind of got us here, you know, to this to this point where we all decide that we want to get in there. Let's maybe wrap up on a little bit on on some athlete development or organizational stuff within USAT and AAU. I think it's interesting enough, you know, that um, you know, we've said many things about you know USAT and some of their deficiencies that are perceived, you know, you know, their deficiencies from our perception. Um, but also I think you know nowadays you, you know, AAU has a has gone through a huge leadership change and a structural change, I guess you should say that, you know, from a a chair uh to a I guess it's a martial art director and a chair, you know, kind of figuring things out and um you know new coaching levels and and USAT going through yet another um what is it called? Uh uh trying to how do you where's my I can't say it like trying to make a national team like uh a coach or a pathway? Oh, a pathway like USAT went to another pathway. Actually, I it's funny. I kind of shut my my brain off for uh you know a little bit over the holidays, and I have a couple days this week before we start back, and I want to look at the USAT's pathway, but if I'm not mistaken, they didn't go to uh you win at nationals, you get into the team trials thing, you know, it's it's another point system. You gotta be in the top whatever 12 or 16 or something like that in your category, and you can go to local tournaments that are ranked by USAT, you can go to stakes championships, regional things, the nationals. There isn't one thing, there isn't a clear cut, you know, thing that you can go to.

SPEAKER_05 56:18

So I think that's didn't we try and then there's the top 40 world ranking or something, top something also.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

There's a bunch of different things, but yeah, just it gets it gets a little it gets a little confusing, you know. And I know TJ, you mentioned one time, you know, that you know, you got these one athletes there going getting funded to go internationally, so they can get that top 40. And then you got a bunch of other kids trying to travel around domestically, you know, these people are paying, these people are not paying. It's it's almost a little unfair, and I'm just gonna use the word unclear because yet again, oh procedures, that's what it was. Uh selection procedures again is again, we gotta try to figure it out. And and they have different procedures for cadet junior and senior, if I'm not mistaken. I again, I could be talking wrong, but I think my first glance at that was like that.

SPEAKER_05 57:06

So put them in team trials. I like I said, if you're gonna if you're gonna you if you're gonna fund people, if you're gonna travel around the world, if you're gonna do all these things and you're gonna have a private club and run it as such, make a regular team trial. Like let like the people that qualify for teams, put your guys in team trials. We're we're still protecting people. Oh, you're top 10 in the world. When we all sit here, no, that top 10 in the world wasn't so difficult this time around, right now for the current situation. We're talking about silly stuff. And I'm not saying it's not eat, I'm not saying it's not um, excuse me, it's not hard or it's not a little bit difficult. But at the same time, when you go to that many tournaments, when you fight that many Grand Prix challenges, when you fight that many events, you should be there. There's no, there's no there's no reason why you can't be there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

I I will say this to USAT's credit, I'll give them this. Uh, and we, I don't know, maybe as our are doing from talking about it on this podcast. At least they came around to this Pan Am thing where people that were because remember, some divisions were locked off because they were in the top 10, they were already there, they're on the national team, so these people couldn't fight. But some of those people that were top 10 also had wild cards and they recognized that. They said, tell you what, you guys take that wild card, we'll have a team trial. That person will be eligible for the Pan Amps, and now we'll have two people or three people in the Pan Am Championships. Very smart, I mean, accepting. Um, I noticed they said that you're not in the national team, but you get to go to the Pan Am Championships. I'm I'm not I'm not hung up on that at all. I'm I'm glad that they figured that out to give some more people an opportunity to go to the Pan American Championships. And I don't know if that again, we talked about that from the beginning, and maybe they heard it, maybe they didn't hear it, maybe they they came up with their brilliant minds on their own, you know, with that that think tank that they have, you know. Um but I do know they listen to the podcast, you know, item by item. So, you know, I can't think that they did it all by themselves anymore, because I know there's uh certain coach that you know kind of line items our stuff, and so that's kind of cool. Maybe looking for some pointers.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

No, yeah, I I love that I love this. Uh I love this idea. I gotta sh I gotta see if I can share this with you though, because I've been thinking as I'm listening to you guys, and then of course I always like to if I can share something with you. I saw um I see this. I see well, let me see, uh allow. Let me see if I can share it. I was wondering what TJ's outfit looked like, and I totally found out. I found out, dude. I had no idea. That's Woody Woody Allen in in everything you wanted to learn about sex but never knew, and that's him dressed as a sperm. So this is up to the name. That was the name of the movie. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

That's before our time.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

Because Woody Allen actually looks young. I saw that when I was 12. All right, well, I think we've this nail is the one. Just real fast, real fast.

Head Touch Protests And Scoring Inflation

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

I just we'll we'll end up on this just real quick just because it's something I I do want to talk about because you know that you know the two organizations are working together which I I I've always supported. I think it's a great thing that AAU and USAT are trying to uh do some aligning in the sense of keeping um keeping dates off of each other you know I'm saying maybe sharing some resources as far as uh um uh referees or stuff like that I'm not quite sure how they plan to do that but you know there are some things that I'm I'm you know again I have to be I have to be honest you know I there's some things that are a little alarming to me they're going to this now two-level system with coaches that you have to go to a a TOPS program I'm not even sure what a TOPS program is I think it's a referee program it's just weird how USA AU what I loved about AU it was a it was a grassroots organization it was an organization where everybody was welcome things were very simple things were very easy step by step by step you know they have a variety of events that was just open to all martial art type people technology people and all of a sudden real quick we still have those things but it just got real complicated with the administration with the structure now they got a point system uh now they have uh a new coaching system that it's just it became a little difficult it's a little confusing they had to go to a town hall actually I'm gonna watch it a town hall meeting to describe some of the new programs and again change is good addition is good but I think they would AU is has done a lot of changes and it's kind of it's a little alarming um I again I'm not speaking just by myself I've had so many messages what's this what's that I'm like ah let me let me try to figure out so it's something that's a little alarming to me and I can't help but say is it the influence of USAT or is it the the eagerness to work with USAT?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:56

I know they they went with a government structure as far as uh directors and regional directors and I know um you know I'm gonna open it up because I know TJ was up for one of these positions um but his the decision was to have him on the AAU you know program to help develop he's been a tops coach he's been a national team coach he's put many people on the national team and AAU thought so highly of him to said hey man we'd love to you know get you on this regional type of uh leadership um and it was put into question by the other organization and it was basically revolved around his his affiliation with for this podcast and oh TJ and so it was almost kind of a do or don't so he was put into a very sorry to talk about TJ and you can expand on more but like he was put into a position that he had to decide to be on this podcast or be associated with us or remove himself from this and to to to have this leadership position but again I gotta say it wasn't AAU's call from what I know it was the other can't be their call we've been doing we I was asked to go on a Croatia trip while doing this you know what I mean I've talked to them a bit you sure it's not you sure you sure it's not because you're black no not this time possibly who knows it's all of it who cares my point is I know that I've done what I can with AAU within AAU um I mean think about the podcast that I'm gonna take you guys back after the AU nationals we sat on the same podcast and critiqued AAU themselves and throughout that some of the same people were the person people in contact with me to let me know hey we want you to go on this trip we want you to be a part of this group we want you to to build you into this and you can do this and you can help the organization and so you're a tremendous asset to the organization all down to it being tied around a pop this podcast and basically asked to not say the things that I feel not not support the system that support not support the coaches not support the athletes not support tech one though in general the growth just to sit back and then maybe I could get a little something something this is what this is what bothers me right now TJ is because that's why I talked I said AU was a place where they accepted all this stuff and again we're we have a freedom of speech in this country and all of a sudden AU is not able to utilize you anymore because another another group doesn't like you or doesn't want you saying what you're saying doesn't want you fighting for athletes and coaches and programs.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:35

This is the problem this is a problem with if AAU leadership wanted you utilized you extensively and then all of a sudden it's either yes or no choose or don't choose we're in a bad situation that means whoever's that leadership connection to the USAT is choosing them over us. Not us I'm not talking us you people and that's a bad situation and you know if this MOU type stuff of of working together doesn't want people badmouthing each other from administration stuff like that. So what define bad mouth because I say hey there was a bad call at the nationals so if I'm an athlete or coach or administrative or any person I'm I broke I broke this rule like how are they going to disseminate this information to everybody is it just for you or is it for me?

USAT vs AAU Pathways And Procedures

SPEAKER_05 1:05:27

It's gotta be just for me. It's just for you or for you or for her or for the group but none of it makes any sense you you like I said I I've been with this organization I've worked with this organization I've been on national team trips I've never again I have to say it I've never gotten in any trouble I've never been late for a meeting I've never not done my job I've never not shown up on time. It's a crazy thing to now this is the decision the quote unquote that I I have to make and like I like I told them and I'll and I'll say it again that decision was made when you you told me that you can allow any other organization to have any influence at all on who I am what I do for you guys and how much you value me.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Listen I'm gonna challenge the director of AAU the director because if I'm not mistaken he's the one that brought him to the table about USAT and AAU working together. Again I'm I'm supportive of that like you said Hyung that was a great analogy roll the boat together tech quantities technology roll the boat together we don't have to do this i i i agree um i cannot agree with politics i cannot agree with selection procedures okay whatever but if if the new leadership of a you brought themselves into this this negotiating with with with usat and then they just said okay well i'm gonna bow the knee or bend the kiss the ring or whatever it is and it's someone that we worked with with years and all of a sudden oh you guys don't want him you guys don't like him it's either he either he does this or that like what what that what kind of leadership is that they chose a a solid person uh they chose weak leadership it's weak leadership and I'm gonna say that when I see him in person I'm I'm gonna like you chose that over this something that's been here never listen I hope you fast forward to the end of this and listen to this part yeah that's weak leadership we should have started weak yeah I and we're we're gonna talk about this more because I this is not this is this this story is not done and you know maybe that's leading into next week you know maybe they will start the year off with a bang with that but um again I I gotta I gotta piece this all through my my head I can ask my vote for him for weak leadership though if it's an SNS award for weak leadership he's my number one nominee he has to be you know and I just again I'm gonna talk to him personally when I see him because this this shows me that he does not have the best interest of of AAU he has the best interest of himself or whatever his his motive is it's not the best interest of AU you cannot tell me when a person has been there for a number before you before he was there before he was there and I'm talking as an athlete TJ as a coach TJ as a program uh with a tops program with the national team program blah blah all that stuff all of a sudden he chose them over you he should have said I absolutely not this is a valued member of our AAU organization this is a this is a paying member that has contributed that have done everything we've asked of them and you guys all of a sudden because he has a podcast because he voices differences because you guys USAT have screwed you over over and over and over again when they've used terms and it's gonna come out terms are like any peak person it's wrong and I'm just you know again I I'll defend you always you know Tito you're my brother and stuff like that I know you're you know you don't want to have to go throw these rocks and stuff like that but we're gonna we're gonna talk about this because I think somebody has to answer for it. And people again once again AU needs to know this these are behind closed doors things that are happening that are not good for the organization.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:01

They're used to dealing with people that go they're used to dealing with people that go away and like you said kiss the ring and stop the action and stop speaking what's right. They've messed with the wrong group they messed with I don't I don't and that's not like saying mess with anything I'm just yeah there's no way I've never been built like that. I don't I don't move like that it the the answer has to be no and if I feel a certain way I'm gonna protect my integrity and always say and do what I what I think is right.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

You should as you should as you should so I mean let's end it on that and you know we'll pick up with the SNS awards next week and then I I I want to get into this I again I want to dive into it and kind of think about it. I don't want to speak too emotionally I want to speak a little bit more you know piece by piece and who knows maybe in the next week I'll probably talk to a few of these people and you know have some more stuff but yeah a lot of people have been talking behind closed doors a lot of people have been talking behind closed doors and making these little deals and that's exactly what I thought AU wasn't like I thought we are an open place where people could could thrive and and help and participate and all of a sudden it's a lot like USAT. Do as what we say or else you can't be with us that's that's not the place that AU should be or is or was or whatever the case so we need to we need to get it back.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:16

We need to fix it all right brothers this has been the sorry not sorry warehouse 15 podcast happy new year