Inside The AAU–USAT Power Play And Its Fallout

The sparks fly early as we call out suspensions without hearings and pull back the curtain on the AAU–USAT MOU that’s chilling coach speech and athlete advocacy. We’re not interested in drama for clicks—we’re interested in standards. When leaders punish dissent instead of engaging critique, everybody hears the message: keep quiet or get sidelined. That’s how talent leaves, parents stop trusting, and the sport’s future gets smaller.

We trace the bigger problem to culture. The U.S. keeps producing outliers, but outliers aren’t a system. Sustained competitive excellence comes from coherent methods, coach development, and a national rhythm that brings seniors and juniors together to train, learn, and compete. We talk openly about athlete welfare—unscientific weight protocols, punitive policies, and a mindset that treats kids like disposable products. The fix isn’t complicated: independent oversight with teeth, evidence-based weight management, and a duty-of-care standard that values long careers over short-term optics.

We also dig into how electronic scoring arrived as a bandage for ethical failures in officiating. Corruption and incompetence demanded action, but automation hollowed the art without restoring trust. We outline a better path: professionalize referees, publish evaluations, and enforce accountability. Then we get personal about team culture—why esprit de corps won matches in the past and why sending athletes home early is a costly mistake today. There’s a practical roadmap here: fund clubs where athletes live, resource what works, establish real coach pathways, and rebuild shared rituals that make performance contagious.

One listener question about Sanda’s Olympic journey ties it together. Unity and governance decide who gets to the big stage. The same is true for Taekwondo now. If leadership won’t protect due process, invest in clubs, and reward collaboration, communities can start the rebuild themselves—shared camps, data, mentorship, and parent education that demystifies selection and safety. Subscribe, share with a coach or parent who needs this, and leave a review with the one change you’d make first. We’ll bring your best ideas into the next round.

Transcript

Cold Open, Banter, Disclaimers

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Sorry, not sorry, sorry, sorry not, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Not me the people. I the people. Not be just to me.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Okay, welcome everybody to the Warehouse 15. I am your one of three co-hosts, and today we're joined by the illustrious um Mexican and armed brother, Dr. Stephen Capner, one of the most foremost minds on two or three things. Well, Korean literature for one, sport philosophy for a second. He's a double doctor, but he's also a USA national team member, world medalist, Pan Am Gold medalist, part of the most successful team in the history of sport. Been on the podcast before. We're also joined by Ta Kwon Do, uh James Brown's cousin, little Brown, as we call him, a light-skinned Brown. And then finally we got Randall joining us today in the in an undisclosed location. But Dr. Kitler seems to be holding up some sort of libation from one of the greatest countries in the world, uh, as the illustrious president likes to call it a Hemehico. I'm an honorary Mexican today. Oh, nice. I like your hat. Love Mexico. I like your hat. It's a sombrero. Oh, it is a sombrero.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

It's a sombrero.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Usually sombrero is a uh a beautiful libation made with uh kalua, um, or if you're like me, a little more upscaled kind of coffee liquor, and then uh water, I mean milk or cream.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

And a little tequila reposado and heco mexico.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

It never, never ceases to please.

SPEAKER_05 1:37

You have to try the crutalino.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

That's that's now that I've I've demonstrated my bicultural bona fides in the nice.

Intros And Credentials

SPEAKER_01 1:51

We are uh we want to be culturally sensitive. So as we start the podcast, we always had we went through a variety of disclaimers on this podcast, but um let me give the best shot as I can. The opinions expressed on this podcast, whether they are people that come regularly or like us who are here all the time, are our opinions personal to us? They are not representative of any particular organization, including our own, the warehouse 15. In my case, my opinions definitely represent me and everything that I represent. And my disclaimer goes something like this sorry, not sorry, and you can kiss my ass. With that said, um, welcome to everybody on the podcast. Um, and the sole remaining member of Warehouse 15 not to be suspended by any sport organization. Um, and the reason they can't suspend me is I don't belong to any of the organizations. So again, refer to rule number one. You can kiss my, you know what that is. With that said, let's get to a more positive thing. We got a lot of things on the agenda today we want to talk about. I don't know if we want to talk about them in any particular order, but remember everybody that's joined us, and there are many, um, feel free to either raise your hand and I'll see it and I'll admit you into the chat so you can speak. Or if you'd prefer to remain anonymous, just put your question in the chat and I'll speak it. Mr. Brown, and I don't mean um the guys hear me. Oh, I you look good.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

I look good.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

You look like you're ready to testify. You got that mic out. You put that mic in your hand in a way which was like, Can you feel me? Can you feel me? And then uh anyway, we'll we'll get on it from there. All right, gentlemen, welcome. Um, Dr. Capner, how have you been? Good.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Uh, it's it's colder than uh well digger's ass. Oh, nice, nice, nice, and nice. Uh so yeah, I'm looking forward to unassing for warmer climates, which I'm gonna do next week.

SPEAKER_01 3:56

I heard you're going to uh you're gonna spread spread your cultural love and and go on a uh sabbatical, a journey of one to the top of the mountain, top in uh in another Asian golf.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

I'm going golfing.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Golfing, that's a good start.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Here's uh listen, I want to say hi to Terrence. Uh Terence and I have never met. I've been following you you know on the podcast. I'm a big fan. I really admire the way that you're porting yourself through all this monkey business. Um, you know, and it's it's a pleasure to, even though it's through Zoom, to meet a fellow employer that did the dance at the at the top.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

So it's nice to meet you, Terrence. Same with you, sir. We've heard a lot about you. I know uh you know Grandmasters always talks about you and uh says you're one of the smartest people he knows and has a lot of information to to share with the people. So I'm I'm excited to actually be on a zoom and be able to talk about some things. So I'll pass that on to Terrence though. Uh when I see him next time, I'll let him know.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

And then and then Terrence, thank you for I mean Evanin, I mean uh I mean Tao Ta Kondo. Thank you for that. And then Dr. Captain, I don't know if you're familiar with Randall, but he lives in Little Sky, Montana, which is I understand, underneath the butthole of Big Sky, Montana. And so he's a uh most I know that most people in Montana are either big fish kind of guys or they they they rattle and wrangle cattle, but my understanding is that he is a ferret breeder and he likes to breed them himself personally. So I'd like to introduce Randall to you because he hasn't been around for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I'll tell you one thing. I that boy's not from Montana. He missed that by about 47 states. He's from like Alabama or Tennessee or some shit. He might be from North Carolina, he could be. He might be.

SPEAKER_05 5:47

Yo, first of all, Montana's change, so you better be careful, man. You've been over there in Korea too long. You haven't been over there in Montana. We got see them boys over there, and I got some boys to tell you about.

Audience Support And Pushback

SPEAKER_01 5:56

He seems often like Juan Moreno. It's not like Randall anymore. You wear those lost his Randall. You know, this is Randall X. Yeah, yeah. That didn't work too well. Well, we got a lot of topics. I know Dr. Capner's got some on his mind. Do we want to address? I know we got a lot of people on the uh on this podcast that want to maybe hear about and talk about the AAU situation uh or the uh suspension of our brothers.

SPEAKER_06 6:23

I got changed for that.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

You are you got okay. So we're gonna hit we'll we'll start off with that, and then I want to leave enough time because we have Dr. Capner. Um, and we have been, you know, I have a good friend who does portraits, and if you can look behind me, he did a portrait of um the four of us meeting the last time we met in Korea. And in honor of uh my coach Moreno, we have a roast pig um along with a couple of bottles of sojuice. So we got a roast with some lechone, as they say, back in the homeland. Um with that said, um, for those of you that don't know, um, it came to our attention that the podcast has drawn the ire of a couple of sport organizations and individuals. Uh Kim Jungil's brother, um, who runs one of them, and uh so he decided that he would unilaterally without a hearing, because apparently he doesn't live in America or understand the sport acts, suspend two prominent Olympic coaches who make their livelihood in the Olympic sport at Taekwondo and have served us and built the platform upon which they're able to speak. And so I know that we've been talking about that a little bit, but um, today we're gonna kind of talk about a little bit, get people up to speed on what is kind of going on and uh and take questions.

SPEAKER_05 7:42

Yeah, let's go like this. Oh, we're back. If people want to, yeah, my change, but all right cool, cool. If people want to talk about it, we could talk about it. We'd love to answer questions about it. I just want to say, like, you know, first of all, we've had an outstanding amount of support, to be honest with you every year. Now my my inbox has been flooded with really great messages, um, people helping out, you know, sending information for us to look at. Um voice message, Instagram message, Facebook message, phone message. It's been it's uh it's really it's really nice to to to hear the support. And again, I'm not saying everybody agrees with our our our positions on everything, but um to see so much support, like just not that I needed it, but it makes you want to dig your feet in deeper and say, you know what, we we must be doing the right thing, you know. So again, I'm not saying people have to like what we I talk about.

AAU Suspensions And Due Process

SPEAKER_03 8:38

Yeah, I just I'm just glad that hopefully that people are paying attention to what we're talking about. People are paying attention to the things that we're saying and the things that we're putting out there and putting online. You know, I I put something yesterday, I know, a little disconnected from all the AU stuff that I'm sure everybody wants to talk about. But you know, that even what I put up about um Lindsay, like all that stuff is what we're dealing with in our organization that have been dealing with our organization. And so many people, her mom sent me a message, and maybe I'll read it to you guys a little bit later on the podcast, but her mom sent me a message, and it's just it's disheartening to see that this organization has gotten to a point where they've they've they've they've gotten parents that can't say what they feel. They've gotten, you know, the kids can't say what they feel, and they hold their their Olympic dreams and their world championship dreams in their hand and they dictate what they can and cannot do and say, and it's just unfortunate. And like I said, I know you said you got a lot of inbox messages, but as as well that I as well did I, and I'm just I'm just happy that people are able to to you know open up and um talk about there. She goes right there. Lindsay's mom just says she's in here right now. I I really appreciate your message and I'm I'm I'm happy that I was able to, I don't know, you know, if it's put a little bit of light on the situation, but I I remember when it happened and it wasn't okay then and it and it's still not okay now.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yep. All right. Well, um, if people have questions about that and they want to open that dialogue, we can, I think we have some other stuff that we want to cover as well. So um all I can say is, you know, from where I sit, um, and by way of background, as a USOC board of director, executive committee member, and the head of the membership and credentials committee, which understood when people were out of compliance, it's pretty clear that there were two organizations conspiring and putting themselves in danger of violating the what used to be called the Amateur Sports Act and their own bylaws. Um and so they uh have suspended a couple of individuals. And what I've always told people in the past is if they can do this to two high-level coaches, what can they do to you? So if you speak out and you say something and we're here to speak out for you because there's really nothing they can do to us. Um, and so I will continue to speak out about um the Browns, the Greens, the Jays, the Steves, uh, the Kim Jong-il's and the the baby dictators over at the AA Who, as I like to call it, because that's pretty much what it is. Um, and uh so with that said, um, you have our continued support, and we can kind of circle back to that. Dr. Capner had a um he has something he'd like to talk about, and I we'll start with that because it's an interesting topic. And um oh, I see a good friend of mine just joined. So um anyway, go ahead, Dr. Capner. You sure?

SPEAKER_02 11:21

I mean, I think this AAU US A T thing is probably the topic of the day.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Well, we can get started with that if you guys want. I I'm looking for some questions from my we got a ridiculous amount of people in the room. So um, is there anybody on the um on in the rooms that would like to speak on it? If so, just send me uh a uh message in the chat. Uh, or you can just kind of raise your hand and unmute yourself. Um, because I haven't muted everybody. So if you want to say something, feel free to chime in.

SPEAKER_05 11:54

And and and just to be you know clear, it it doesn't matter if it's in you know support or you know, against it's it's not a problem for us at all to to have that conversation if it's uh if it's worthwhile. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Yeah, I've seen a couple, I've seen a couple argument, uh, a couple articles, you know, making our arguments the other way. It's just it's just funny to see the moment you dig a little deeper and you look at where they're coming from. You know, I I I was thinking about this earlier when I was on my way home. It's it's it's just interesting. I've had a lot of coaches, I've had a lot of leaders and people that I've put my trust in. And I I think I've never been asked to weigh in on a situation that I didn't have information on and didn't know what was going on. And it's just funny how all this blind support, you know, most of the people that are are sticking their necks out for us and and and showing that they're supporters are people that have known us for a very long time, people that have seen our our body of work and people that have interacted with us and understand our character and who we are. So those are the ones I do appreciate because those are that's the real support. Any anyone who can disagree and say it's okay to suspend two people because of a podcast from an organization without any any just cause or any any anything actually. You got to be saying due process, none of that. You have to be, I don't know, you're missing a couple brain cells. It's impossible to think that's okay. That wouldn't be okay anywhere else.

Why The MOU Matters

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Well, let me let me set the stage for everybody. So each organization um that runs sport of this country has an obligation to publish bylaws and just and and show that they're open to anyone, regardless of anything that might be discriminatory. They do not have the right, because they are public organizations that serve the public, to choose who they can allow in the organization, absent malfeasance or absent um something that would be harmful to an athlete or a coach. Nowhere in any of them is there a provision that allows people, because they don't like what you say, to exclude you from an organization. Um, and even in that case, should they determine that something you say is so abhorrent that it it offends the census, they still have a requirement under law to hold a hearing, and then they can do what they want, and then you have a right to an appeal. In this particular situation, the AAU by itself, without any precursor, decided to suspend two coaches without a hearing, without due process, and without any right to address those issues. So, with that said, they violated their own bylaws, and in one case, the organization which is complicit in that, um, and we have information on that as well, the organization that was complicit in that is under a direct obligation from the Olympic Sport Act, the USOC, the IOC, and the WT not to do that and to afford both of those individuals. So that's kind of what we're speaking on. I have a right to criticize an organization, an individual. I have a right to do any of that. The things that I don't have a right to do, but criticism is part of the system that we have as government, certainly in the United States, and as outlined in the bylaws of organizations. Now you'll hear me say the words AA who, and the reason I say that is not to denigrate any of us who participate in the AAU. The AAU is a great organization for grassroots development of athletes, and historically has been. And that's not to say they're good or bad or indifferent, but they're not the Olympic organization. They can't put people on an Olympic team, they don't have any rights under the Olympic movement, and they don't have any rights within the Olympic movement to address AAU, cannot address WT, cannot address USAT, because they're not members of those organizations. They don't have any rights, and they don't have any rights to address anybody's rights in those organizations. So when I say the AAW, it's clear to me now that their organization is now being run by individuals who may have a personal agenda and have taught, thought they could color outside the lines because that's what they're used to doing, where they come from and where they go and what they do. They obviously don't have any history in sport governance, they don't have any history in nonprofit governance, and they certainly don't have any Olympic um bona fidees because I don't know who they are. And they if they had had better advice, they wouldn't have done what they did. With that said, that's kind of how I would set it up from that. But do we have any questions from the the many people that have joined us? Or any comments? I see one comment suspending two Olympians from helping lead and direct an amateur organization for free is crazy.

SPEAKER_05 16:36

And yes, I think that's you know you know what's funny is because this has kind of gone on for a long time, you know, and and maybe both. And you always hear the whispers at tournaments, you have whispers at you know, training camps, whispers, you know, here and there, and everyone has concerns, you know, here or there, but they they're very um apprehensive to speak up and and say anything about you know either organization for fear of retribution. I don't want to say that because they're gonna take it out of my son or my daughter. And it's funny. So But it wasn't like that in AAU at first. No, it wasn't like that. That's the crazy part. That not at all, it wasn't like that at all. Yeah, absolutely. But what I'm saying is, and now I'm kind of going to both organizations, but what I'm saying is if if the average person kind of feels that, and I don't mean average, but you know, the normal person feels that and then they see you know, Olympic athlete, Olympic medals, Olympic coach, Olympic athlete, Olympic medals, Olympic coach, you know, that has you know been standing up for people and trying to do good things for you know decades. All of a sudden they just get smacked down when a new uh, you know, uh a new administration comes in. What what what does that say to them? What does that say to you know the up-and-coming athletes, mom or dad, you know, when they have a uh a concern? I don't care if it's you know procedurally, I don't care if it's coach-wise, I don't care if it's you know uh development, whatever it is. There's they they have no inclination to speak up for themselves or for their kid because something like this could happen to them or their their athlete or their child. So I think it's just I'm not saying that anyone should be above the law or whatever. No, no, no, no. But it doesn't really send a good message. It certainly doesn't sh send a lot of confidence. And you know, listen, we're a phone call away, and maybe they don't owe us a phone call, or maybe they don't they didn't need to come and talk to us and say, hey, you guys let let's let me give you our side of it, so to speak, or or explain it, but you know, just no no no indication of what we did, you know, exactly what day we did it, where we did it, other than your f your participation on a podcast. Tough that's tough to swallow um from a professional standpoint, and it's probably procedurally wrong. We can get to that later. That's none of your guys concerned, but it's just I guess my point is if they're gonna do that to guys like us, what are they gonna do to these aspiring um coaches and and and parents and and and athletes? So it doesn't sit doesn't look too good. Doesn't look too good.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

Make them pay extra money to get a black shirt so they can have rights to to to to file reports about the the tournaments that they go to. That that even even that in itself, like even even that going from blue shirts to black shirts and trying to separate that. They we they mentioned that shit to me when we were when we were when I was with them, and it made no sense. It's like anyone in the organization should be able to talk about how national was. Don't tell me you're gonna value one person's opinion over another one depending on what color shirt they got. Like that's just that's just bogus, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 19:40

Well, I mean, they they they created a hierarchy, they created a class because I asked the question too. I'm like, okay, if you want to have a level two coaching program, great. I mean, if that's what you think will help develop the coaches in AAU, good, good for you guys. Um, but it really just boiled down to them going to a referee seminar and interacting with some referees, that gets you your level two. But the the ironic thing about that is you get a I think some of the perks are you can apply for a national coaching position when they have a chip and you can pick up your athlete's badges. So I said, so are you telling me that if I go um and I'm not wearing my black shirt, I'm sure they're gonna have to look at it on some database and say Juan Moreno is a level two. Oh yeah, you can pick up your athlete's thing. Or when the applications come in for a coaching position, oh Juan Moreno, he applied oh yeah he's a level two.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

So but even but even that but even that as a perk like to be able to pick up the badges for all your athletes you got to be a level two. That's that's that's that's like love that's basic coach stuff. Like I need to go pick up all my athletes badges because I'm in charge of all my athletes I can't pick those up because I don't have a I'm not a level two coach.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

I I agree I agree but my point is you're create you're creating a a class of you know in a hierarchy look in the in the tournaments oh he's level two he's level one that's unnecessary it's unnecessary you want to change all the shirts to black because you don't like blue change them to black I like black I think the the AU blue shirt is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_02 21:07

That's just me but that's what I was supposed to wear and I wore it sometimes when I have a question yeah yeah I mean a comment and a question so you know wa watching this from afar you know and then the MOU um TG that you put up I actually chat GPT'd it and chat GPT said there is no MOU that this was clearly kept secret until you you know published it.

Fear, Retaliation, And Coach Hierarchies

SPEAKER_01 21:42

But reading it's a it's a bizarre document especially the way that it's worded as to you know what sort of things that they're gonna take umbrage at right disparaging comments and you know butt hurt feelings and so you know clearly this was a putative measure on their part to punish you guys or probably exclude you why would they want to exclude talent that they can't replace and the only thing I can think of is this is some sort of peon some sort of nod to USAT there's there's some sort of ingratiation process going on what do they want what can USAT give them what do they want from them why are they why are they you know doing this clearly you know this is no doubt on the bidding of the USAT right why are they doing their bidding what are they why why are they kissing USAT ass why so every what's in it for the AAU every every four years the AAU gets on its knees and then bends over a table hoping to get some affiliation that they can put to the Olympic movement because uh other thing people may not know. Just so you understand the AAU taekwondo or martial art group does it taekwondo is not even part of the AAU martial arts are taekwondo is a subdiscipline AAU was thrown out of the Olympic movement and in fact the reason the U.S. Olympic committee was created was because of the malfeasance of the AAU as a whole organization and the way they were taking the money from other sports and distributing the sport money. AAU taekwondo and understand this can never be the Olympic organization never because they are a multi sport organization and are precluded by law from being the Olympic organization. They can't replace the USAT.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Right so what do they want from USAT?

SPEAKER_01 23:47

They want to bent over the table hoping to get some affiliation where they get a right to send athletes who qualify at an AAU event to a team trial of some sort or some seating that's all they get and they want to be able to say we are part of the Olympic mo movement. That's not the Olympic movement we're part of the chain that may get your kid so they get an ancillary benefit and this happens every four years. It happens legally possible can the US do that the USAT has a obligation under the Amateur Sports Act to recognize any sport organization that has a program of national importance and the AAU does so the AAU even though it doesn't um have the the all the top athletes it does from time to time get an athlete that's on both um it does it happens a lot more these days yeah it probably happens a lot more and that's a lot of crossover but back in the day we would laugh we'd pray to baby Jesus that the AAU would show up so we could beat them up and send them home no but that's no longer the case and that doesn't what matters is that yes USAT can recognize the AAU if it chooses to and by the way if the USAT didn't AAU could sue yeah the right under the Amateur Sports Act and would probably win. While it cannot be the official NGB it is a program of national import. Let's say um I decide to create um Puerto Ricans for better health taekwondo and I have a national I have a state program in every state and I yield athletes in every state and I can show that I'm organized in every state the USAT would have to give me a seat at the table on their board they would have to give me a seat um at the table for trials they'd have to show that they've included me in the process they can't exclude me so the AAU is using their power perceived power to get that seat so they can go to their moms and dads who are sitting at home and say oh by the way you know we're part of the Olympic movement too you know it's like back in the day when we'd hear all these people say oh I'm an Olympic hopeful what what does that mean you you're you're hoping yeah I'm I'm an MBA all-star hopeful yeah you know and I we used to laugh at that and that's kind of where the AAU finds itself so just keep out the clown who's the chairman of it because he's not smart enough to understand it all that's what he's hoping for. He's oh I made a I made a great deal look I have a memorand of of understanding you know what those things are called in the rest of the world toilet paper because nobody does anything with them. So for a memorandum understanding which TJ can shed some light on that's why they did all this.

SPEAKER_05 26:29

Yeah but the funny thing is you say that but I mean listen I said it before okay it's it'd be awesome if the you know two taekwondo boats could row in the same area or kind of sail in the same direction but they they both serve different purposes but the mou thing was interesting and and and I don't know if he wants to talk about it but I know Mr. John Lewis in his podcast he he talked about the items on the you know on the MOU and normally I mean mr mr lewis you want to you want to talk a little bit about that like the order of that stuff or or no i i don't know if I'll do a great job of it but he was saying that normally if you have a mou kind of the the meat and potatoes is right at the beginning what we're gonna do with each other kind of makes sense but it kind of wasn't until like the sixth or seventh or eighth point that they kind of talked about anything the the the beginning ones were we we won't do this to each other we won't do that to each other and and and none of that was in the original talks it was hey let's not put the dates on the same time as nationals let's possibly share resources possibly you know have some interaction back and forth with referees um because you know that stuff kind of make not kind of it makes sense I don't think anybody would disagree with that but it just seemed like it was so fixated on not letting people speak their mind not questioning anything not you know uh judging whether something was good or bad you know in the moment and it it just seemed very suppressive if if if I had to um if I had to you know give a give a title to it so speak I think I think uh Mr.

Athlete Welfare And Weight-Cut Abuse Claims

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Cape N said it like what what is it in what is it in for USAT and how does it get how does how do those two things cross paths I mean it's odd it was a trap. It was it was a terror it was a stupid trap it was a weak trap it was something they set knowing that we've been doing this podcast for over a year and we've been talking about issues within the sport in other countries with USAT a lot more so than probably some other other organizations but this has been going on and to say that now if someone does this we're not going to give them a platform like what is even the definition of a platform neither the AAU this is the USAT this this is usat doing this 100% Steve when when when when TJ was offered a position and this was the grit of my initial comment when TJ was offered the position it was okay great be a re uh a uh district chair run some events help grow the sport build it up in the area everything is great it wasn't until AU went to do this MOU or this meeting with USAT that they came back and said no podcast that's my point. It even got to the point TJ correct me if I'm wrong that they said you asked if what if I'm on the podcast I just don't participate if something comes up about the organizations they're like nope no podcast at all and then he's like well you know I'll just wait to you know be on a team they're like nope you can't even you can't even coach on a team you can't you can't do anything because that's considered leadership and he's like wait a minute now being an elite coach at a camp is considered leadership well it's not but it isn't you can't do anything so it went from I mentioned the date of the creation open being like the 15th or 17th of that month or whatever was a little bit after I think the MOU was signed on the 12th and on the other 15th or 17th um that was when the creation open was and I in one of the conversations I had with them it was like oh well it was too late to take it from you at that point it was too late to change it at that point because I was like I've been doing this uh this podcast I just did a podcast the week before we even laughed about the podcast and like and again it's so funny I I don't I don't respect too many people that can look at your face laugh at your face until you agree with the things you're saying and then get right on the internet behind and celebrate this union between AAU and USAT. It's a crazy change.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

That's what I mean AAU went to USAT and got their marching orders and those those were the marching orders one the reason you got done I would say a lot of that is a result of the previous world championships where you humiliated USAT yes and now you're on you know this podcast talking about problems in their coaching system and and their administrative you know the lack of of competence and I'd I'd say why can't we understand that though like I again and I and I'll say it again like I you guys find me one national team you had one coach on the national team when you had four to four plus coaches there coach eight people eight individual athletes by one person when does that ever happen in the first time out in the first time out what what what and if that was the how is that again I said I said it before how how is that the plan if that's me being mean I'm sorry you you're not gonna I don't care who it was no one coaches eight people their first time out it just doesn't happen yeah yeah so I mean Steve you you're you're probably you're you're you said watching it from afar I mean you know taekwondo and you know political things and you you can kind of you can kind of connect the dots and see where this happened I mean you know the AAU for whatever reason you know was trying to appease um the request of of of the other organization to to have TJ not be on the podcast again it's just it's I mean you know what forget about anything just the freedom of speech just to tell somebody you can't be on the podcast if you want this job I don't know and it's not even a job it's a volunteer position it's like yes you can have a tournament you might be able to make some money but you gotta pay that deposit for that venue you got to buy the Mets you I mean it's still it's almost like a business you have to invest and then hopefully you'll get it out I I'm sure you could probably get it back but it's crazy it's not even like he was being hired for a full-time hit coaching job that's gonna be career changing for him it's just it's crazy that it got to this level this quick after all this time boom gone no I'm that's what I'm saying this they got an order the order came down and they executed it right but what what it doesn't baffle me I know why I I know the these people in the USAT um you know one of them particularly well because he was my coach and my senior and we trained together on the same team for years and we're on the national team together so I know him better than anybody and I know how I know how that that mind works and I know how the USAT's mind works.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

And what baffles me uh well doesn't baffle me it pisses me off is you know they're using this clause in the mou to to do TJ and now I guess you but what they should be doing both of them is sitting down with a pen and paper and taking notes on this podcast because what you guys do is you come back from these events and you distill all this knowledge and experience down into what really matters and you're actually telling them how to get better at what they do you know they should they should they should record this and you know play it to their coaches. You're actually helping them you're not you're not trying to tear them down you're telling people exactly what you see and and you're filtering it through all that experience and knowledge and and you're actually hoping for better outcomes and that's why this is small minded and thin skinned and really you're just shooting themselves in the face.

SPEAKER_05 34:22

I think that's a that's an interesting comment too small minded and I I I can't I'm not in their think tank I'm not in the room so I don't know but what I do know is successful people successful programs they look for outside help they look at other you know other uh other places to see what they're doing and you can't have all the answers and that's one thing that's one thing that seems like it's been in grains you know for for a number of years that they have all the answers and they don't need anything else. And I you know I just I don't think that's a good model for anybody. I mean I certainly wouldn't use that I mean you know I had a I talked to an athlete today literally today when I was driving in my car and he was like you know how do you pick what countries you're gonna take your team to how do you pick you know he was asking he was picking my brain a little bit and I'm like listen it's never perfect you know science you know it's a little art it's a it's a little feeling but I I look to you know to find some people that are doing good things and I see if I can go there and and check it check them out. It's no different than when we were young and we go to Korea and I learned this from you know Grandmaster Perez I never went to Korea to be like a Korean I went to Korea to learn what they did and how can I take some of that and how can I defeat that that that was my that was my mindset every single time and I think I probably carried that you know I go to Jordan I go to Uzbekistan I go to all these places to to to interact to see them to meet them and I'm not sure I mean heck when you have people like Terrence in this country and you don't want to utilize them because you forget about the podcast for this year because there's it's been long over a year DJ it's been long over a year that they they've you know had excuse after excuse why they didn't want to use you and the only thing I can chalk it up to is they they have all the answers.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

And again it's my opinion it seems like that's what's happening um but yeah what happened to the what happened to the question was what happened to the Corrigan complaint I think her mom's in there I'm assuming she's gonna write something because she just wrote a letter answer she said nothing and that's what I heard too nothing.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

It got pushed to the side thrown away yeah I can we get can we get some background for the people who are listening and aren't intimate her her daughter was up at the USAT Academy training.

Culture Clashes And Leadership Failures

SPEAKER_03 36:47

I think most of the time it was in Colorado I think much a little bit time in in North Carolina from what I understand from what was put um she posted on her Instagram and the things that you know that have kind of moved around she was that was the time when they were doing that whole gotta be a certain weight thing gotta be this percentage of your weight for an absurd amount of time a lot of people were complaining about training while being severely dehydrated not being able to eat having to choose between keeping$25 in their pocket or or or or being healthy and going to training and I I I remember that that time because it was kind of obviously you're in a tech one you you hear those stupid things and that is probably the dumbest approach to weight cutting I've ever heard in my entire life and and to take it as far as to punishing people with their money that you're barely paying them already. So you got people cutting weight just to get into training is stupid you know and like um so anyways uh that with um a lot of mental abuse and just not just not taking care of the kids I I don't know all the details hope if her mom wants to chime in she can but they're not looking out for these kids they don't care about these kids well being they're just they're like someone said on one of the posts earlier something they're just trophies they're just look what we just did look look look what this kid just got me as my bonus this I'm gonna this guy's good right now okay I'll ride him it's it's very just it's very concerning to me that you see all these top female athletes come and go they get to a point they win they're having success in their career and then they're gone and then and then you hear stuff from the parents and mothers like this I mean just look at the comments I'm not gonna look at the comments look at the stuff that we're saying this is she they're telling me they were there and they saw it. I don't know who they talked to or what process they follow but if you're if your child's telling you something's going on if all these people are telling you something's going on and they're there's they're naming people they're saying Steven they're saying they're saying may that goes with all the coaches too the coaches allowed this to happen I don't know who care who enforced it or not they allowed this to happen in front of their faces they thought this was okay they let them take money from these kids they let even from a coaching standpoint why do you want your athletes showing up to training dehydrated think so so I mean it makes no sense but anyways I'm sure her mom has a lot was she write anything yeah disposable products that's a great that's a great point disposable products they're they're on to the next they don't care what happens to these kids they're not developing them they forget that they're kids they came over here and forgot that they're kids and they still need to be taught and guided and looked out for and most important keep kept safe get them to where they're gonna go help them you know live out their dreams and do their things but according to them it was on the opposite they just hold that to the fire well if you want to be a part of this organization you better do this. If you want us to be support you better do this if you think you're gonna be an Olympian you better do it this way that is absurd.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Well there was a comment about good riddance to May Payho and I couldn't agree more having trained with her and known her she had zero experience in professional development of sport athletes programs or the paradigm necessary to make athletes successful. She was gifted into a position of which she was um totally incapable of doing and then that meant that she could only go back to how she was taught as an athlete in a dojong and she was taught in an out as an athlete in a dojong and Her relationships with coaches were one-sided. So why wouldn't she expect people to do the same for her? And as a result, she was the sacrificial lamb of that organization at that point, but she earned that. So way May um was may you and I know that we like her as a person, but as an administrator, she was over her head. Um she at best, I don't think she I don't think she could have run a dojong. I don't think she worked a day in her life. Um, so when you put someone of that in a level where they're handling a multi uh an organization of that size, you're in the same place as you are with the AAU and its current leadership. These guys have no experience in sport administration, so you're gonna have bad outcomes. Um, and usually the bad outcome first happens to the kids. Now remember, USAT has had a long history of abuse in the sport on athletes, coaches abusing athletes, and administrators abusing athletes. That's no secret. And um, what was interesting though is that when it when the changeover came, when we got rid of the overlords, the people who were under the overlords became worse than the overlords. So, you know, we have a worse situation in a weird way now, but that is what it is. Um it's like child abuse. It's no yeah, it's a cycle.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

They become yeah, they have a much higher propensity to become abusers themselves.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Yeah, yeah. And so, and that, you know, um when you especially when you get two foreign coaches who don't, and I don't mean foreign in a bad way, you can get great coaches. Like we would have been gifted and blessed to have certain coaches come to the United States that were performance. When you get coaches from a system that is totally different than what we did or do as an organization in the U.S. Olympic movement, and they try to instill what they learned in their the equivalent. Let me be clear, BTS and its development system is the equivalent of Dojong development system. They don't have a level of sophistication, they have a level of sophistication high up, but Brown, Garrett, and Garrett Brown and whatever the other guy's name is, Paul Green, don't. They went out and cherry-picked athletes from other sports, put them in a situation where they became the Arlene Lemuses and the Lynette loves of the Olympic movement. Their success was mostly with women, not with men. And in fact, when any man got to a level um and was vocal about it, like in Aaron Cook, they they found a way to disabuse him of that intention. He had to go somewhere else, and they ruined a great athlete. So we bring that particular culture here and that philosophy here. What do you expect? What do you expect? What do you expect when you see the head coach of the U.S. Olympic team with his athlete tell everybody to kiss their butt and give everybody in the world the middle finger? And he's not reprimanded or removed. What do you expect? Well, you can expect that because the head of that organization, McNally, is from the same country and they come from the same place. They probably go out and drink a pint together, have some chips, and uh, and then go back out and do the same thing over and over again because nobody's watching the fort.

SPEAKER_03 43:12

But imagine if you had to coach someone to the point where it's like you get to that point where you have to smack them to get them locked in the place. You had that that's something like what what do you remember that? Okay. Yeah, that was the most absurd. That was the most absurd thing ever. And they're selling their parents signed this letter for her to be smacked. If I don't care who signed what, you're out there smacking people, it's crazy. And then the joke about oh, we're going to Olympic Games, so now I gotta pinch her. I told them to pinch them so it don't look so bad on TV. This is a joke to these people. They don't care nothing about any of these athletes.

unknown 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

At all.

SPEAKER_05 43:49

Yeah, I mean, listen, it's that up. It's nothing again. You can't bet 100%, but it's it's interesting that I mean a high high percentage of the people that, you know, kind of enter out there to that, you know, that training venue, when they're when they leave, they're done with the sport. Like they're done so. They're like out, like we don't hear from them. We don't even know what planet they're on. You know, I mean, they're just out. Very few stick around.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Everybody leaves this gruntle.

SPEAKER_05 44:17

I've had a lot of people in my gym. I've been I've you know had my peak performers for 26 years now. And you know, people come, people go. When it's time to leave, they leave. But no one, I don't think I have anyone that goes, shit, I'm out. That's it, no more. You know, coaches, coach sucks. I hate him. Like, time to go to college, time to go to work, time to get married, time to, you know, do whatever. And it's just crazy to think that these guys are just out, like they don't want nothing to do with the sport. That's I don't know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

I mean, after massive success. After winning a Pan Am Games, after winning a world championship, after winning an Olympic gold medal. And now we're entering the same realm with Christina Teach out. Her dad's upset and and uh and you know, going through it with those guys. She doesn't continue to happen.

SPEAKER_01 45:06

Dr. Capner and I had a little bit of a conversation, which we're gonna get to um in a minute. Um there is no success, there's no success in USA Taekwondo comparatively to what it used to have.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

Let me jump in on that because you know, this is the same thing that happened post-Lopez era. You know, people left them and they had the, you know, they had the de facto national training center, right? And when people left, we we know how they left because of that culture, and that's one of the things I'm gonna talk about today is how the culture changed.

Outliers Vs. Systems Of Excellence

SPEAKER_05 45:44

I I got something, you know, it's funny. I and I don't know what you think about this, you know, Steve Young and Herbie. Like I think the US USTU was around for 28 years. I think it was 28 years before it got dismembered in 2000 um in 2004, and then it was rebirthed in 2005 to USAT. And so again, at that 25 to 26 year, it started just to like crumble, right? And all the cracks started showing there's so much nepotism and stealing of money, blah blah blah blah blah number of problems, and it got blown up and it started all over. And here we are. If you think about this, this is interesting. From we're in year 21. This is the 21st year of USAT since 2005. And and it's almost seems like, you know, I guess, you know, you know, again, Mr. Lewis does a great job of data and facts, talking to Mrs. Mr. and Mrs. Lewis, talk about you know the surplus of funds and this and that. But you know, maybe with all these craziness, it doesn't seem like we're excelling as a sport. Maybe, maybe the business side is pretty good, but I mean, we definitely aren't. I mean, we're no better off, you know, very maybe even from where we were seven years ago when you just look at you know the talent. And you know, it was supposed to be, you know, they look at this country and they say all the you know the great athletes and the great talent. There's a huge pool. And and here we are, you know. I mean, TJ said it last night, what are we gonna do when our our superstars are gone? I mean, do we have a a second person behind a our minus 80? Do we have a second person behind our our minus 57? Like bona fide, bona fide.

SPEAKER_03 47:30

I mean that's not gotta be no, but they started that a long time ago when they started shoving cameras and all the academy kids' faces and then making videos saying, look at what we do, look at this, you gotta be here with us if you want to win. They went about that all the wrong way. They again to develop a room and develop a a following for themselves and you know win the medals they win and keep it moving.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

But I want to hear this culture thing because I even were they even capable of creating a team? No, all they all they had were a couple of guys, they didn't have a team. No, it's in the system that they came to the city.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Yeah, they had outliers. So when you have an outlier, and you know, for everybody on the podcast that they probably already know what this means, but when you have somebody who succeeds despite the system, they're called an outlier, right? Uh, in parts. And in this particular situation, the minimal success USA Taekwondo has had over the past X amount of years has been as a result of outliers. They weren't developed by the club USAT, they were developed by coaches, and then they were brought to USAT and they took credit for them. In the past, if you look at the greatest success that USA Taekwondo had back before '92, we were all outliers. Juan Moreno was an outlier. Herb Perez was an outlier. Jimmy Kidd was an outlier. All all of all of them were outliers. There were very few that came through the system. No one went to the Olympic Training Center because that wasn't where you went to get good. So that's that's um the truth of it. What you lack then is sustained, sustained competitive excellence, and countries that demonstrate sustained competitive excellence, like Iran and other countries like that, and others now as well that you guys are aware of. But historically, when Korea was king of the world, queen of the world, that's because they had a program and a system. And you hoped to get in the room with the rest of those champions. In Iran, they had a room with every once a week the best people in the country got together and fought. And they had a system, and that's why they continue to have sustained competitive excellence excellence. If what you do is go on a random, you know, uh kimchi tour and let's go around the country and find the best talent and then make them Olympians, that's not sustained competitive. So there is nobody behind. You don't have that level of excellence, nor will you ever have it because you're not developing it. Soccer, you know, which you guys hear me talk about, they have that. They have a culture. In every club around the world, there's a culture where they start with the U-12s, the U-13s, the 14s, and they develop that culture young in the skill sets so they have sustained competitive excellence and the better clubs have better results.

SPEAKER_05 50:12

I think, I think, like, you know, you know, this program here in America, I think they've worked backwards. I think they came over here and they said they're gonna do it. And I get it, you know, you're you're the boss, you want to kind of establish yourself, but I think they put up their their duke so much that they said it's our way or no way, nobody else really knows. We have the formula, and they they just shoot everybody away. And I feel like now they're trying to like, you know what? We might want to, we might want to partner with a few people and see if we can kind of make this pool a little bigger, but it it's probably too late. It's you know, it's seven years into this program, and and and you're just kind of trying to build. I mean, they're just now bringing, you know, a few more people out there and trying to invest in a few more people. Um, you know, we've talked about how they don't invest in their cadets, they don't really invest in their juniors. So it's really a half-hearted, you know, way. And I know it sounds like I'm bragging and I'll I'll go to Brazil. We do not have a centralized training, we are club-based, just like the United States. But what we've done is we've made sure we've invested in these clubs. We have some athletes that their club gets shut down and we get them facility, we get them money, we get them coaching, we get them psychologists work. We try to do as much as we can with the city.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yeah, but you're set you're centrally based. You're missing, you're not missing the point. You're you're articulating exactly what I'm saying. You have a philosophy and a method. It doesn't have to be central, and in fact, it shouldn't be centrally based. You should go to where the talent is, and then you should develop that talent and support that talent. You get people on the bubble, means they're ready for a performance. It takes 10 years to develop a world-class athlete. It takes five to ten, maybe longer, to develop a world-class coach. You can get all the ass clowns you want that are willing to supplicate get and bend over the table to join USA Taekwondo and make them somebody and give them a chair to coach. That doesn't make them a world-class coach. You can take somebody who had one athlete and try to make them a world-class coach. That doesn't make them a world-class coach. World class class coaches have developed just like athletes through experience, opportunity, and that's graduated, meaning you you let them start at a certain level, they carry bags, they assisting coach, then they get to coach somebody, then they listen learn the methodology of the successful program. Yeah, but fundamentally, right now, there's no successful program.

SPEAKER_05 52:31

You know, I'm gonna put this out to everybody because I never talked about this, and it's interesting because I'm doing a coaching program coming up here, and and one of my PowerPoints is um coaches development. Um, and and it's funny because I as I was reflecting on some things, it's interesting that most of our national team coaches just went right to the top. And think about that. As an athlete, you don't go right to the top. You fight a local tournament, you fight a regional tournament, you fight some opens, you get some experience and you build up, and then you're CJ. Then you're then you're top notch, you know. Um, but if you think about it, as coaches in our country, we just took people and say, boom, we plugged them in right away. And they quite honestly, they don't have the experience of developing athletes at home, taken to a local level, district level, regional level, national level, you know, continental level, world level. And and so they're missing a lot of these things. But these are the people that are working with our best and brightest athletes. And and those coaches that I did just that I said that have actually done these things, uh Mr. Giombi, uh uh coach, you know, some of the you know, coaches from the California groups are are they've done all this, and they don't get a sniff, you know, coaching at the top level. Those would be the ones I think that could help that organization. But again, we're getting a little off, but my point is it should be the coaches have to be developed just like the athletes have to be developed if you want them to do a good job. If not, you you're putting up a coach that understands the sport with up and coming athletes, and they're almost growing together, they're almost learning together. And when that athlete, that that 18, 17, 18, 19-year-old buck that's like, you know what, I feel like, and they look at this coach going, they're not dumb. They're like, I don't know if he really knows what to tell me. I don't know if I really trust it because I don't really remember, you know, him doing or her doing a whole lot with other people. I mean, you know, these athletes are smart, they're they they're intuitive, and I think there's just a big disconnect, and it could be better, it should be better.

How The Game Broke: Tech, Refs, And Trust

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Sorry, let's let's segue let's segue into the culture question because Dr. Cabner did some thinking and research, and we had a conversation on this very topic. And um there's a question when you want to look at you you just look at results, right? So we're a performance organization, and I know you like the NFL, and there's that day, Black Monday, all the coaches get fired. You don't perform, you get fired. Um, and I love that. I love I think if you don't perform, you should get fired unless you can prove that you have success. But Dr. Capner made a point last night, which I'll let him start on. Um, and it's and it speaks to culture because culture defines results.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Well, it's you know, my views on this modern, on this electronic game are no secret. Um you know, Herbinev talked about it, Ad Nausea Mon and I have talked about it endlessly. And my gripe with it, not only the fact that it destroyed real taekwondo, that that no one can tell me what I watched in this last world championships was Taekwondo. I'm sorry, you just can't. You can call it that, but it's not. You know. I mean, if you go back and you watch you know, old Taekwondo had its boring side and its match stalling, all that, but when it when it tripped, it tripped, and it was it was something that nobody else in the world has ever come close to doing. You know, you can get badminton players doing this taekwondo at a fairly good level with three months. That's just different. But you know, so that's that it's that problem. But why? Why did we go why did we have to do it? Why did we have to adopt the electronic protector? I was there, I was in the room. I was hired in 2007 by the World Tech Climate Federation. They had their first test match two weeks after I was hired in Chung Chun. I was there. Well they they brought, yeah, they brought, you know, real teams. Mexico. Um, it was like a World Cup. And they used they tested the dado system, which was then implemented for the first time in the 2009 Legust, Legust was it, yeah. The first one was La Just, you're right. They used Dado in the world championships. Legust didn't get the contract, but um the reason was because they couldn't trust Taekwondo referees, taekwondo officials, taekwondo administrators to to honestly run our sport. It was just too corrupt. There was another, you know, secondary issue that they couldn't the sport was too fast and too complicated for humans to score it. Well, I that's only true if your referees don't know taekwondo, which was the case for international referees, I would say more than 50% of the time. Um for two world championships, I was the the the technical the the referee evaluation chairman. And all I did was walk around and watch matches and evaluate these referees and and match officials. And it was after the 2009 Copenhagen World Championships, I had a folder of 167 you know instances of just plague-written competence. So the you know, the referee pool was composed of people who had never competed at a at a elite, let alone even a semi-elite level, who wanted to be part of the game, a lot of poomse people, a lot of uh Dojong masters um that couldn't score the game. They they didn't they didn't understand it. You know, Herman and have talked about this. Well, you'll know this, TJ, you'll know this as soon as I say it. When we watch a match, especially a classic match, because there's no anticipating this game. It's it's too chaotic. But when we watch a classic taekwondo match, we see the point before it happens. We know in that moment what's possible. Like, oh damn, he's gonna get countered, or this is a trap, or we see that moment shaping up. So if we were refereing, we could score it instantaneously, even two or three points because we know how the gears mesh, right? These referees don't. So what they're doing is they're seeing something, their brain is processing it, and then they're pressing buttons, but by then two or three other things have already happened.

SPEAKER_05 59:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

And you know, that could have been solved by professionalizing the referee corps. The president now of the Korean National College of Physical Education, Hanguk Chede, uh is my junior. He was a top player, he's a taekwondo guy, Wun Jaewan. He wrote a really good PhD dissertation. I read it and it was about how the WTF can professionalize this referee corps so that they can technically manage the officiation of this complex sport. He had all the answers. It was all there. The president had a copy of it, the children won. But it cost money. So they didn't, you know, that problem was solvable. What wasn't solvable was the ethical problem. They just didn't trust the fact that people wouldn't cheat. And while I was there in 2007, like I said, I was in charge of evaluating referees for the Beijing World Championships in Copenhagen. In Beijing, I knew there was an official in the WT headquarters that was fixing matches. So I had the referee Omsportsman, who was a dude from New York that Herb and I both know. I said, I want you to go into the referee's restroom, waiting room, like where they have a room for them with coffee and snacks. And I want you to quietly poll these people and ask them how many would be willing to testify that this guy told them directly to fix a match. In other words, as they're marching out, he's sitting there going, blue, in this match it's blue. Got it? In this match it's red. Got it. What's his power? Well, those people get invited back as referees because he was in charge of that. He came back with 11 names. And have to keep in mind that uh 40%, 30% of the referees were out on the floor at that moment. 11 people willing to stand up in some sort of inquest and say, yeah, he told me to do that. That's the WT.

unknown 1:01:50

Wow.

When Team Culture Died

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

So even the even the International Federation was rotten. And they're just like, well, you know, we're just going to give it to a machine and be done with it. And the reason that that was possible is because Chojong Wan, the president of Tekund, has no organic connection to this sport. These techniques mean nothing to him. Not a one, a backspin, round-house kick, is the same as, you know, when a breakdancer lies on his back and twirls. Like I watch breakdancing, yeah, that's kind of cool. Yeah, I don't care about it. You know, oh yeah, do a one-handed handstand. Cool. You know, I don't care. Was it a right-handed limb with left-handed one? Doesn't matter. That's how he views taekwondo. He has no, you know, these things are not visceral for him. So whether it's, you know, back leg power taekwondo or front leg, you know, cut kick fencing taekwondo means absolutely nothing. That can be thrown away, it can be given away, it can be traded as long as he stays in the Olympics. Okay. So that's my the basis of my gripe. You know, we can argue. Some people actually try and argue to me that this taekwondo is just as good as the old taekwondo. Well, you know, I'll I'll I'll die on that hill. That's a that's a hill I'll die on. But that's not the point I want to make today. Um, I want to make the point that our culture failed us, our martial culture, and that culture is gone, and this is and this has performance implications, right? So I did a full scan of results back to 85 of world championships and then Olympics, and some interesting patterns occur. And one of them is the the most the best the US has ever done in world championships was 2005 Madrid because three Lopez has won gold medals. Okay, guess how many other medals the US team won? One bronze. Zero. Okay. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so they had four medals. Three of them were gold. That put US in second place. Now let's compare that, and that's men and women. Let's compare that with the team that Herb and I were on. And you know, we I'll throw in the Pan Am games because it's important. First Pan M, first time Tekwon was included officially in the Pan M games, and the US won six gold medals. There were no women, it was just men. Eight divisions, six gold medals, and one bronze. Unrepeatable. And then we went to the world championships, and we won six medals, five bronzes and one silver. And the women won as well gold medals, everything. We had 11 medals out of 18. Unrepeatable success. Look at it. The closest, the closest any team has ever come, I think, is six since then. Right? And Olympics as well, Olympic results. Um the team that you and Herb were on. Obviously, one of the best. 88, one of the best. Um what was different? What happened? And then if you look, that just falls off after 2015. And then again, and then after 2020, whenever the the Brits came in, it just so if it went if it was going like that, then it went like that. What happened? And my answer is culture, and what I mean by that is okay, we we came from the club system. And then starting with 87, that was the first year that they did it. No, eight my my bad, they started in '85. After nationals, after a team was decided, and they didn't have a trials yet, it was nationals was the trials, for several months before these competitions, the team came and trained together in Colin Home Springs, right? In a sort of a team building exercise. And that was a great idea. Because to be honest, the coach at the time, a man that coached both of us, you know, in many competitions, was incompetent. He was he didn't know the modern game. I remember one day he had us doing push kicks on the bleachers against you know, stacked bleachers. Thought my leg was gonna fall off. Well, the reason we were good was because we functioned as a team. And he was smart enough to leave us alone and let us do our own training because we had a we had a culture, a martial culture, where you had experienced seniors and then less experienced juniors coming to the team, and the seniors would help those juniors get up to speed as quickly as possible. There was a sense of responsibility, and and this is the good part of Korean culture. Korean culture also has its bad part, all the stuff we know about the max match fixing and the malfeasance and the you know, by the leaders of the organizations. I can talk about that as well, also until the cows come home. But the good part of this Korean martial culture was this, you know, you still call Urban I young, right? Older brother, this senior junior mentorship relationship, where the team itself was what created an uh environment of excellence and a desire to be excellence, a desire to upgrade your game, not only for your own benefit, but because you wanted to fulfill the expectations of these people you respected. And if you were one of those people, then you felt an obligation to help people less experienced and younger than you, you know, young their levels.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:07

Let me ask you something about this culture stuff because the truth is, I mean, I know me and you've gone back and forth with you know old school taekwondo, and of course I was part of old school taekwondo and the modern-day taekwondo. And you know, I have an uh uh um I I I I respect the new new athletes a lot these days because they're they do some amazing things, and it's the it's the system. You said it many times about the athletes at all. I'm talking about the system. Yeah, it's the system, but what I want to go is the culture because that's changed too. Like in in our era, where we did things like this, like big training camps, because they were important. It was a chance for people to get together to build some hierarchies, to build some camaraderie, to build this, um, to build each other up to get the best out of each other. And I think that that at that moment in that culture, um, there was a lot of good leadership, seniors, as you call them. And I don't there's there's no seniors in this day and age. There's nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

That's where I'm going. That's where I'm going.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:06

So what I was, you know, and again, some people will like that, some people won't like that. Some people say that's oppressive or whatever. But in your opinion, how do we get the best from that old style in old school into the modern, the this day and age, modern youth, the modern game, you know, the modern, you know, accessibility to phones and and and everything else. I mean, do you have you have you thought about that? Like, how do we how do we integrate that?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:37

How do we how do we do it? I'll get that. I'll get to that. I have a couple more turns in the road before I get to that. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. Um, so the important thing about that was not only on a personal level did it create lifetime relationships, right? Nobody left the team angry. They when the their competition days were over, that was the best time of their life, right? Look at you. Yeah, I you want to see something. That's Juan Moreno in my house in 1998. He came to Korea to train at Jungin University. Every weekend he came up and stayed in my house and trained with me and my club. Yeah, look at the guys. You got hair, you got hair. Oh, that's that's below the belt, man. Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:33

Your bell was pretty high up there for a second.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:37

I don't know. And you know what happened. You know what happened. I think uh you felt the rate of that 36-inch inseam more than once.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:49

Yeah, I I think it's no, I think that I thought when you were asked about the culture thing, I think that's that's kind of important. You said that he still calls you hung young and everything like that. And I think obviously that's that's very traditional, that's very, you know, respect-based. I mean, I I've watched our culture change as soon as we we changed the cultures, and like now they're calling. Think about that. You would you calling your coach by their first name? I know people maybe not think that's a big deal, but like in America it's a big deal. That it's a big deal. In American culture, that's not normal. You don't go to school and call your teachers, hey Bob, hey Jack, hey James. No, this Mr. This or Mr. This. And I think you want to talk about a culture breakdown. I think it starts there. You you can't, there has to be a barrier between or a respect level between you and athletes. They're not, they're not supposed to, they don't call you by your name. I, you know, as as adults now, I still call people Mr. and Mrs. This because that's what you do. That's how you show the respect, that's how you don't blur the lines. I and I I find that that hard to listen to. I think a lot of things were taken away, and these kids were put in a situation where it's like, hey, Steve, hey, hey, I'm gonna go talk. The first time I heard it was baffling. I had to ask them who they were talking about. Oh, you know, the CEO, you're you just gonna call that he just called Steve, and you're gonna go talk to the CEO Steve. That's a that's a cultural breakdown, and they gotta understand in America that's important.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:07

Well, and so this gets to how do we solve Juan's question, right? But but yeah, with the exception of one person who you know was involved, you know, somebody that is implicated in all this. Um, I have I I have a great relationship with every single one of my ex-team members, and we're still in touch 45 years later, right? There, there was no leaving the team, you know, angry, disgruntled, abused. There was no abuse. There was discipline, there was hard love. We taped you to a tree one, or no, wait, who was that? Bobby Leach? We put you in a wall, a dryer, you turned it on. Uh, you know, we did something these days. No, you can't, and I wouldn't. But, you know, look at the relationship that that that engendered, right? Yeah, we made we made people stand on their heads and and we disciplined them. And guess what? They call me, you know, 25 years later randomly out of the blue, and tell me what a huge impact I had on their life and how much they love me. Well, I forgot I was gonna tell you, I'm gonna save sport your ass uh tomorrow.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:22

I like I said, I wouldn't do it now. I'm just joking. No, listen, but I think it you're right. That that's real real fast. I bet you there's probably you've got a less than one hand where teams did exactly what you say, where people were like they called their old teammates and stuff like that, because it seems like there isn't a team, there isn't a culture of that at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:44

No, and that was my point is that was that translated directly into performance. Because when we went to a competition, we had guys behind us that we wanted to make proud. We we knew that if we sprained a pinky toe, they'd be right there with a bag of ice or telling us what we were doing wrong, what we were doing right, scolding us if they thought that we were a sandbagging or being lazy. They were invested in in us, we were invested in them. There was a the best term I can come up with is an esprit de corps. Yeah, and that didn't come from the coaches, that came from the team, from us, from the chemistry that we built together, because we believed that this was more than just a sport, it was a martial culture. And where did where did it break down? Go ahead, Juan.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:35

No, I was I was gonna I was gonna say, and if it started with us as athletes, and then later on it it it came down from some coaches that that turned in to be athletes. But if you don't, if you don't have the coaches that are doing that, and you don't have the athletes that know how to do that, you have what we have right now.

Rebuilding Esprit De Corps

SPEAKER_02 1:14:53

So this continued, this culture continued with great success through 92, because you and her were on those teams, and then it kind of limped along, and the I remember when it broke down. It was the 94 or five team, whichever team Gene Lopez was on, was I think the captain. They came to Korea, they trained at Dong Sung High School. I was there. I went there specifically to beat him up just for fun, you know, because I still could. And you know, I watched Gene Lopez abusing this fin weight or flyweight in sparring. They had him up against the wall and was like double kicking him, punching him in the chest, and he couldn't go anywhere. You know, I told Gene to knock it off, and then I said, You're an ex standing in front of me. And as I bent down to tie my shoe and I looked up, he was gone. He ran, he just ran away, right? But then they had match fighting, and the cheers that he had these guys doing were so ugly and so tick-tocky and and so disrespectful. And then I got on the bus with him because one of the Korean coaches asked me to come to dinner, and I heard the philosophy. They hated Korea, they hated Koreans, they saw them as you know, people, the people they had to beat, but not only that, people who were keeping them down and like repressing their free culture of you know, American freedom of expression and do whatever you want, call each other by your names. There was no young, there was no respect for the coaches or the seniors. It was everybody do your own thing, wear your pants how you want them. There's no sense of team unity. Uh, and when later, when we see, you know, when we when we take the lid off that stinky jar and look in, we know why. But that's when it died. And with the exception of the Lopez family's individual performance, that is also when Yosta Kondo, as a team, team performance started going like that. So there's a there is a direct correlation between those two things. How do you get it back? Somebody with those values instills it and then explains or demonstrates why it's good. It's not, it won't just, you know, grow out of the ground like a mushroom, right? It's got to be reinstilled by somebody with those values. And USAT, as TJ was saying, has the opposite of those values. You know, let's call everybody by their first names. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna go on TikTok and I'm gonna twerk because that's you know what a tech wonder person, you know, with of repute does. I'm I'm just going to you know be as undisciplined and unmartial arts like as possible. And guess what?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:57

There's just no guidance.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

How many medals did we get in China?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:01

One, two, two, yeah, yeah, and I I think that uh again, the leadership doesn't know how to create that, and unfortunately, the athletes don't know, and it's not their fault, they don't have anybody to teach them. Yep, and even even the assistants that are around, they don't know how to do it either. I mean, I'm gonna say something, and it's it's you know, it might be a little controversial. Listen, uh everybody knows I work for Brazil. Brazil has a lot of talent, but so does the United States. The United States has a ton of talent. And the one thing that I you know, listen, I don't live in Brazil, I don't take any credit to say I train these guys every single day. But the one thing that that I might, the lady that hired me, she said, I need you to bring that that American culture to Brazil. I need you to bring that we can do it at any cost because the Brazilian people and the Brazilian athletes, they don't really believe that they're worthy enough or good enough. And Americans, they always feel like they can just, no matter what the odds, like Rocky, like the Olympic hockey team, they can they can find a way. And I kind of chuckled at that because to me that was second nature. That's what I was brought up with. I don't think this culture really was brought up with that. So, you know, I said on my quest, you know, back in 2019, to build that culture, to build that that that coaching camaraderie, to build the the the junior team to senior team to specialized team, kind of funneling up to the Olympics. And, you know, G Dave, you know, anyway that went to the world championships and stuff like that, all you have to do is look in the stands and you see us sitting together, cheering together, crying together, training together. I mean, we're a team, and I agree with what you said. Some people say that that's not important, but I do believe the Sprite Corps is so important. I think so. I believe so, and that's one thing I'm super proud. Listen, Brazil's not perfect, we have our own troubles, we have our own.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:00

challenges but that's one thing that we did um very uh intently purposefully is to build a team and matter of fact we got we got rid of a coach to create that we we got rid of a a coach that produces Olympians and as soon as we he left the room the team went like team skyrocket and you know I I I kept that coach for our for as long as I could and you know I he's a great coach someone wrote a little while ago that yeah I forgot about that that they're you know they don't even allow the kids to stay and support each other they send them home the next day or the next day like it's it's absurd. I mean even a takeaway from the experience honestly the world championships is an amazing tournament you go there to compete and win but there's something about being there and supporting your team and seeing the wins and seeing the the ups and the downs and seeing the referees and seeing the good calls and the bad calls and it does develop that that camaraderies important like we don't have a team these guys everyone's pinned against each other and fighting over whatever spots and who they're gonna like more and who they're gonna send and what divisions they're gonna pick. We're so far away from having a team coach and I know it's an individual sport but that's a big point.

Brazil’s Model And Team Unity

SPEAKER_02 1:21:12

That's not American culture is let let me give you an anecdote from my experience at the world championships with you know with her I was a lightweight but I was a six foot too lightweight you know how hard it was for me to to make 154 pounds and I was on the fifth day world championships is a five day tournament I was on the fifth day and I had to sit in the bleachers all day from morning to night until our last fighter was done I would get the team doctor to hold targets with me back uh you know in in this big we're in Barcelona in this big cold stadium you know on concrete and I'd try and get a workout and I'd try and sweat out there and the Korean lightweight who was gonna have to fight actually saw me and he came and he wanted to ask me if he could kick targets with me. So we had this big crowd of people around taking pictures of it like look at that the American lightweight and the green lightweight anyway five days the only reason I made weight is I found a sauna somewhere in Barcelona I took a cab there the fourth night after after everyone was done I could go back to the hotel me and the female Finway who were fighting the next day and I sat in the sauna for like two hours almost passed out and I barely made weight and then they gave me some like Spanish breakfast of like an egg two pieces of toast and a you know a piece of bacon and I had to go fight in 30 minutes after work you know weights it was you know those were crazy days. But for the two months we were together at the training camp we did everything together and one of the things we did was video night so we watched Big Trouble and Little Titan like five times together and I don't know if you guys know that movie but in it when you know Kurt Russell becomes part of this you know the good guys were gonna go down to the underground and try and s save the green eyed lady right and he drinks the magic potion you know he looks up and this was their thing right we're gonna kick ass. This is our team side you're one of us he's like yeah yeah I feel pretty good my third fight I'm fighting the world champion from Mexico Oscar Mendiola and I was weak just from from the weight cut and I was struggling in the first round you know and the coach was like what's wrong with you know what this isn't this isn't you and I didn't really care what he didn't even have any advice on him he was just trying to shame me and performing I look up in the stands and these guys are all going I came out and I I not obvious under kick his back whip kick like highlight shit because he would back back whip kick off of almost anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:01

Check go I see him start and I backspin around under kick him and then it was over I didn't think axe kicked him in the face every time I scored I look up and these guys going magic potion baby magic potion right and they got me through that fight and that was a that I was a former world champion you know and that was the fifth day and everybody was in the stands it could have been a drink and eating tapas and stuff you know and they were they were all there a couple of them were drunk we won't name any names herb but but you know you can do that you can't buy that but they don't yeah well nowadays they don't say for the whole thing but it's it's that and then and after that the culture dis was destroyed by the Lopezes I'll name them they did it intentionally you know and they had a few rupees that helped them from then until now downward downward downward downward and it's just gonna get worse so you know Brazil you've got something on you know Latin Americans have their own culture of of camaraderie and and familial values that I think you can take advantage of and clearly you did right clearly you helped tap into that yes sir yes sir well I don't know I know we've been uh talking for how long we've talking now young how long has it been a few a few minutes we got we should probably wrap it up but we can take a part two on this right so I mean it definitely is something that we can we should revisit but I was a little shocked that we didn't have more questions I thought we were gonna get some some answer for everybody so what happened to you you got suspended you dumbass got suspended yeah yeah there's one question uh you want to read that one go ahead read it some i i can't see it you can't read i knew you can't read can't shot you can't read i got it hello ledger this might not be the right time and place but i have been following where house 15 podcast for a bit now and this is all great to listen to even though i'm out of the TK said I have an off topic question that I would love to ask now or at a later time if you guys are willing I would love to get your expertise and opinions yeah got a few seconds go go for it coach Moreno how are you sir oh what's happening how you doing didn't know if you know it was meant there what's up how's it hey good good good I knew it was you I saw you come in what's that yeah I knew some uh technical difficulty it was a little didn't know everybody could hear me but anyways you know you guys are talking about topics where something you know organization a sports big enough to you know be where it is and uh I uh actually Grandmaster Perez you've been at my father's school once upon a time we have pictures I don't know if you remember but I I remember it that's why I said I saw you come in I wanted to say hi how is everything going uh good good uh yeah I think that was before my time but anyways I wanted to just see how I can get to you know I believe there's problems there's always problems there's big problems little problems and you guys are to the point where this sport has big problems and uh that's as uh bad as it sounds I want to get a sport to have big problems and uh maybe avoid them and get to a point where this sport can be as big as TKD and uh where do I start?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:40

Where do I go to avoid you know maybe having these big issues down the road I know it's a loaded question it's a big question but that's all I really wanted to get your expertise on honestly but what's what uh in what discipline Sonda whoosu woos you first have young no so listen it's a process and you know the most important thing is the strength of the participation in the particular country right and then the second is the most participation in the world um there are many organizations that try but you know you really should think about you get what you wish for and so you got to really think about whether it's something that you really would want to do because it takes it there's an argument and has been for a long time that once a sport becomes once a martial art becomes a sport and then gets included in the movement it diminishes what it does and diminishes how it can do what it does. And and just take a look at what's happened with taekwondo but I um contact me and I'll give you the process because we I used to sit on the committee in the Olympic movement that made those determinations whether we would include them as part of our family and then help them get Pan Am recognition and then ultimately world recognition.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:06

Yeah I appreciate I was kind of partially joking with uh you know with as far as issue goes but you know the ultimate goal is again any sport in the Olympics and that's kind of where uh that's the that's the ultimate goal.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:17

Yeah obviously you guys know what Sando is sando's not just sando's like full contact oh no I think martial arts it's a serious thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:27

Oh yeah no I saw I've seen it because they were trying have you guys been included in the Asian games yet yes it is in the Asian games I was going to say because I saw it at the Asian games and I used to um Dr. Caprian and I both worked for the Olympic Council of Asia. So that's a great step you know the next part of it I'll talk to you a little bit about and um it's getting known uh getting entry into the other regional organizations the Olympic Council of Asia is always willing and able to hand people back in and and that's why we've seen Kabadi in it you've seen you know uh the the one where they do the have you ever seen the one with the horses quuresh and the the uh goat the bloated headless goat body on polo oh good look it up it's an Afghan sport and I actually had was participating in it one year in Afghanistan they take a goat and they put it in a bucket of water for a couple of days then they get on ponies and horses and play polo with it on a field.

Q&A: Sanda’s Olympic Path

SPEAKER_02 1:30:31

True story but here's what you need to know the Asian games is a good start but it doesn't it can not go anywhere. Yeah Brazilian jiu jitsu is in the Asian games as well yep Brazilian jiu jitsu I'm a fourth on black belt and jujitsu I've been doing it for 27 years they have been talking about Olympic inclusion right and they are arguably the most popular sport martial arts sport uh going right now I'm I'm pretty sure their numbers eclipse taekwondo there's no chance in hell they'll get into the Olympics and here's the difference the reason that taekwondo got into the Olympics was that they had a top down heavy sort of military culture and where they sent out all these Koreans to these different countries they started taekwondo programs and then in most cases they took over the associations and affiliated with the the IF the World Taekwondo Federation so by the mid 80s you had a very well established IF with a network of approaching 200 national associations that were very clearly and officially linked to an authoritative IF they had well organized regional championships and a very well organized and well participated in world championship. There was no factionalism the ITF wasn't an issue right jujitsu they have an international federation the IBJJF that is just a shit show and they have all of these other competing organizations Gracie tried to make a new organization site his cousin who runs the IBJF Carlson Gracie Jr. It didn't happen but nobody likes Carlson and then it's a big money grab and then you have you have the Abu Dhabi you know ADCC the the no gi thing and there are no there is no connection between a well recognized IF and all of these well organized national associations. That umbrella that that little umbrella in the drink you have to have that before the IOC will even let you in the door right so you know you you it can look right on paper you can be in the Asian games uh you won't get in the Pan Am games without that the the the bar is much higher over there but that's what you have to build you have to build a solid IF that has very clear and unambiguous relationships with a lot of national associations.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:22

That's the only way we just made it to the youth olympics uh it's gonna be in Dakar I think it's yeah yeah these these are all great steps but Dr.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:32

Capner is correct and like you know they have a saying about Koreans and Korean and they said the difference between and Steve can Dr Capner can help me with this but the difference is um Koreans can disagree they're all like a hand and a finger and a hand but when they need to they can close that hand into a fist and if it's for the for a purpose of getting something done they'll do that. Whereas Americans and other cultures they can't seem to do that. And so if you can't get everybody you know like the jiu jitsu thing is probably a great karate had this problem like right now similar yeah karate similar like they had a million organizations nobody could work together and because they couldn't work together nothing ever happened with it and one of the worst people in it is now the head of AAU in general his name is Joe Merzer and he was part of the problem there were three guys back then theorists from uh Washington Merza and the other was a good guy uh it was Tokey Hill's group and uh and they couldn't work together and they ended up getting all of them got suspended the entire organization forcing us to have to choose one so that's unity always goes further than you know non-unity. So that would be but text me off the line or email me I'm uh gold92 at al dot com easy to find and and I'll I'll grab you can grab my number and we'll chat about it. Thank you sir thank you guys I know it's off topic I appreciate you guys no never there's no off topic never anything off topic. Oh they like the people like my room say in the background I found an old video of TJ uh coach Moreno and Dr. Capner and I wanted to make sure my Korean brothers were representative so that's the uh that's the audio that's that's the background would you pay attention to just stop making dude wait till you see the next one you're gonna beg that I stop conversation so you got don't worry I've got you covered wait till you hear the opening of this week's show you know people uh you missed the ones where I I uh well you heard it we did the uh animal house one which was was pretty cool all right well I don't see we have any more questions I want to make sure everybody Dr. Caitlin was just waking up and uh he's got you know he leads a most people don't know this he leads a small prayer group of young and aspiring acolytes who are expats um and he teaches them cultural uh what I like to call cultural Buddhism and how to behave correctly and close doors he's helping make the the country a better place um and then I know coach Moreno has to get out to Costco before they run out of tacos and fajitas.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:23

So uh anything for the good of the order listen no the you want me to start talking about your your you in in San Francisco I love I love San Francisco.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:33

San Francisco is now my my uh well I gotta be honest my favorite place to be is Korea I love to uh I love to uh go visit Dr. Cape oh there he is there he is I knew it I found it there they go again this is the K-pop group and one a Mexican a Puerto Rican a black and a uh cowboy so not a big and they you'll hear them you'll hear them um we're we're uh we're culturally appropriating and apparently TJ I don't know what happened to his head but uh he's uh he's he's hiding his Joker poster behind but on behalf of the warehouse 15 and everybody I want to thank you all we're gonna do this you know as we always do we're gonna open this up for everybody if you have ideas for topics um let us know we got some swag as well and I want to thank we had a lot of people on today I want to especially thank Dr. Capner because he's officially retired now he's working on a book and he's doing a paper or two but he got out of bed despite the fact that he would love to lay in bed and get ready for a wonderful evening before he heads off to parts unknown to hit some balls and I'm talking about golf balls so I don't get canceled.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:57

Hey I want I want to say thanks to the you know the WT dat and facts you know people I mean Mr. and Mrs. Lewis they do a great job and they always support us and they you know they're on here watching and stuff like that. So I'm gonna see we're gonna see them in Vegas and we're gonna have a drink and Mrs. Lewis you know promised me a good cigar so that's pretty cool. And of course Ms. Corgan I want to say something to you as well because I know uh you had a great you know young athlete and I know things didn't you know finish well and you know I it's kind of ironic that we're bringing you know kind of bringing her back a little bit and and it's it's a worthy um topic. And I hate someone said someone said something in the in the chat and I don't know enough about it but it was a shame that you know one of her original coaches that works for the organization didn't stand up for her more but again I can't comment too much but that is part of the equation.

Closing Thanks And Rallying Message

SPEAKER_01 1:38:46

So just special thanks to you because I know you can comment you're suspended already they can't double super secret suspend you this ain't animal house baby yeah but you know what I'm saying I mean I'm just you know I I don't know I I know thanks you know for all the people listening and stuff like that. I see a lot of names that I know but those those two uh you know in particular was uh was interesting all right anthony for sure he likes cigars too that's right that's right in a closing note stay strong because when stuff is done wrong community people stay strong on it you don't need to be the person to take the arrow that's why you'll never see another bad guy like this again okay but but we will but you know nobody's told Juan he's not cuban and he's Mexican but with with that said with that said you know we're here to to to fight the good fight so that you guys can get what's what's due and what's done. It's only a matter of time before I'd like to believe before bad people go away because they either get bored or they get extricated and removed and you know I'm proud to be part of the group that removed the bad leadership many years ago. I'm sad to be that group because to be honest if I had to choose between the past group which were malfeasant and dumb I Would prefer them to this group because at least with the bad group we had better performance. And with this group, we have nothing but plane tickets, Soju, and uh and and Scotch being drunk on our behalf. And then we have a bunch of people in North Carolina abusing our athletes or really in potentially what could have been our best generation of athletes that we head into probably for most of us the only Olympic Games that we will see in this country during our lifetime. And that's that's sad, um, because it doesn't bode well for the future. But as we said before, remember the original disclaimer this has been the warehouse fifteen uncut. And sorry, not sorry. And we are we are out. Thank you, everybody. Thank you guys.