When The Scoring Gear Fails And Someone Gets Slept

A training camp that starts with “easy practice” and immediately turns into full-contact sparring tells you everything you need to know about why Uzbekistan keeps producing world-level taekwondo. We’re calling in from the ground to break down what we’re seeing day to day: morning strength and conditioning, night sessions where everyone is fresh enough to fight for real, and a level of discipline and reps that makes athletes look comfortable even when the pressure spikes.

Junior World Championships adds another layer. The matches are loud, fast, and emotional, but what stands out is how organized the best kids are. They play the World Taekwondo scoring system, they understand time and momentum, and they choose the right risks at the right moments. We also get into the uncomfortable stuff: bad electronic scoring gear that changes match reality, an axe kick knockout that sparks a rules debate, and why knockouts still matter in heavier divisions even in the modern game.

From there we go straight at the bigger question: what actually separates good from elite? We talk honest post-fight feedback, stealing techniques that beat you, balancing group training with individual practice, and why legacy and culture are not “soft” factors. We end with a blunt look at USA Taekwondo development and the optics of pay-to-attend “Olympic auditions” versus a real high performance pathway. If this hits a nerve, subscribe, share this with a coach or athlete, and leave a review telling us what you’d change first.

Transcript

Back Online After Travel Chaos

herb 2:13

We are back back in black. No pun intended, teacher. The um we are back from Uzbekistan after the conspiracy that kept us off the air last week. I don't know what it was, how it happened, but we are back upside down P on his shirt. I think he put his shirt on inside out again today. What's up, gentlemen?

SPEAKER_01 2:36

What's up, what's up, what's up? How are you?

herb 2:39

All good. Life is good. I was in LA this weekend. I got back from that, and now I'm back here enjoying the beautiful nothing weather of what should have been California, but they lied and they sold me that bill of goods that this would actually be a beautiful California place. And if you know anything about Northern California, it is not what California is, could be, should be.

SPEAKER_01 3:06

We got our we got Coach Arena on the ground out there, huh? Uzbekistan. I'm excited to hear. It's been too long.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

Listen, it's funny because we started to do something last week, and I'm I'm staying at this like historic hotel, but it's like about 3,000 years old. It's huge, it's beautiful, but it's like an old Russian hotel. But it's just uh the internet was bad. We got halfway through the the thing and it you know it crapped out on us. So I had to move over here to the Hilton. So I'm here. Actually, I stayed at this hotel last year, and it's a great hotel. So yeah, let's get into it. It's been uh a great, great time for me, but I got only two more days and I'm heading home, which I am more than excited to do so. But that being said, a lot to talk about. Um I think uh talk a little bit about my camp, a little bit about the junior worlds that I've been watching. So I think we had some cool questions that came up uh that that you answered, TJ, that we could uh kind of address today. So yeah, I don't know. Where

Uzbekistan Camp Hits Hard Immediately

SPEAKER_02 4:00

do you guys want to start?

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Let's start with this camp. Let me let me hear about this camp. We haven't been connected. I know you guys have been over there training and grinding for what almost what two weeks now almost?

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah, it's been over two weeks now. Yeah, yeah. We got here the 31st. Listen, last time I came here, I I raved about this training camp. It was one of the best training camps we ever had. This time we took a a little different squad. We had a mixed squad, we had our Olympic path people, then we had some junior, not junior, some 17 to 21 year olds that we wanted to bring here. Unfortunately, the Olympic Committee didn't approve it because of the situation between the United States and and Iran, which is kind of ironic because the junior team is here and we're here. But anyway, um, but I I I said last time that it was a mix between the the Korean style of clean, skillful technique, the Russian methodology of developing athletes, and then quite honestly, the Muslim faith of how disciplined and and and serious these people are. They don't mess around. I think we'll talk about that a little bit later. Um but this time, you know, we got off the we got off the flight, and they said, Oh, everything's gonna be, you know, just an easy practice, easy practice. Man, it was like World War, no pun intended, three. Like it was kind of like it reminded me young of our old school Korean days when you went in there, there was no such thing as step sparring, there's no such thing as light sparring. It was just sparring without pads on, and everyone tried to kill you every time you rotated. And I was just like, damn, this is really physical. And the group of people that are here is um, of course, Uzbek team, um, Brazil team, the Saudi Arabia team, which I'll talk about a little bit later, the uh a group from Hungary and a group from Poland. So we had a pretty good diverse group of people, but I'm gonna say the Uzbek team, um, I don't know if I I was kind of summing it up as maybe last time they they didn't uh give us enough credit for for what we had to bring in from the Brazil team. But this time it looked like, man, you guys come into our house, we're gonna try to put a whooping on you. People were lining up, you know. They also know who's who now. So like they're so funny. Like all the players, they all come up to like Ahike and Chino. They're like, next, next, they're like, he's like, you're like, you're the fourth person up. Like, that's what is going on with our guys. Our guys are like fighting death matches, like four in a row, you know. So, young, you know how that feels like back in the day with the Koreans. Like, they just keep taking shots at you, and you can't you can only defend yourself so long before somebody gets you. But it was like that from the beginning. Um, we flipped our schedule around because, again, a little bit old school. I mean, we talk about, you know, I know we always talk about training guys. These Uzbekistan people right now, they're doing Monday, Wednesday, and Friday is their physical training in the morning where they're doing like plyos and and and jumping and bounding, and then Tuesdays and Thursdays they're they're on the track running, and then at night is uh is their last practice.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

So conditioning too, like they're lifting weights and during that time and stuff like that?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

Yes, yes, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Yeah. And traditionally, we, I mean, the Brazilians kind of do taekwondo in the morning to do strength conditioning at night. So it was a little bit backwards for us. And um, you know, we did two taekwondos last time we were here every single, every single day. So it was a lot of like on the mat type stuff. But this time, you know, we're just we're going with the flow. So we do our strength conditioning. I found a local gym here that does is great. And uh we do that in the morning, and then we go at night, so we're fresh and we can we can compete with these guys because it's been I'm gonna use that word compete. It's you know, I think we've I think we've kicked shields probably maybe in three or four trainings max, and targets maybe two. It's been all body stuff, it's been all contact stuff, it's I've been all situational and but it's like clean contact stuff, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Even though it's like heavy pressure or is it like messy? It's like clean contact.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

It it's funny because yes, it is. To be honest with you, the guys are really clean. The the women, man, they try to kill each other. I don't know from the get these they try to kick each other's ass. And it's I was just like really shocked by that. But you know, it's just yes, TJ, it is very clean, but just like anything, the speed starts going a little faster. It's never like like like bad power, it's good power, it's good timing. And so that I appreciate no one's you don't see people like getting smashing feet and kicking at the wrong time in the wrong space. That's what's nice about it. But the but young, you'll love this. I don't think that these people, everybody is built to use have that kind of contact day in, day out nowadays. They're just not. Um, but I mean, I think it it wears us down or wears people down a little bit you know faster um than it did in the past because it's just not the primary thing that people do. But that being said, everybody pads up and they put arm guards on and shin guards on and the gloves on and they go at it.

SPEAKER_01 8:53

So control, like so like controlled drills, like running through drills with contact stuff, or or like uh is it just a lot of just step sparring solo by no no no controlled drills, like you know um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Everyone I I I think like one there's one coach that does a lot of progressions like me. You do this, and then next time you can do this or this, and the next time you could do this, this, or this. But next time I when I do this, the defensive can do that. So there's a little bit of play, but again, just like always, there's some partners that actually play within it, and some partners it just turns into a fucking it turns into a little bit of a mess. So, but generally speaking, it's it's it's situational, you know. Um, but yeah, it's it's been it's been really good, really good.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

But I think that's what they always look like that side of the world, especially Uzbekistan guys and some of the kids, I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit later, but it just looks like they're comfortable, they have their their reps are high, like whatever speed, whatever heaviness, whatever, but their reps are high. They always look to me, they always look comfortable in good situations, they're comfortable in bad situations, but they look comfortable to me. Like it doesn't feel like you said, maybe it's the wear and tear, and they're used to the contact, but it feels that way when you see it outwardly.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

We'll talk about that when we get to junior worlds. You know, the other thing is we had two test match days. The first test match days, actually, the systems were not very good. We did some Daido 3 and some KP1. And um are they ever good? These were bad. These were some late, these were some bad hogus, to be honest with you. And uh, I mean, guys are kidding. I mean, Kyoung, you would again, I know you you you say no, you would have loved it. These guys were just sitting down on things and potter chuggies and double kicks, and I mean, bombs were going off, TJ. Bombs, and nothing was going up. So matches were like three to two and stuff like that. The the Day though Gen 3 was a little bit up. Um, and we did good. Like the first day, I think like Ahike was our our world champion. He was he won 2-0. All the girls went two and one. Um, we had a new guy that was 0-3, but like he had he was 0-3 against uh like a hit list of 68 and 74 guys, and and he was 0-3. I think he only won one round, but like it was a good fight. Like you looked at that, you was like, good job. Like, I'm like giving high fives. I'm like, bro, this was you did some good things. You just fought killer's role, you know what I'm saying? Um, and then the second test match day, everybody did two, and um, and Hike was one and one. He lost with to the 80 guy um that he beat earlier, who's pretty good. Um, the China won his two matches, the girls were one and one. Yeah, I mean, it was good. Like we didn't blow anybody out, you know, but it all the matches were super, super competitive, you know. And I'm gonna tell you, let me talk about the Saudis. The Saudis have a Russian coach and a Jordanian coach right now, and uh the Russian coach has been there for a while, he's a little crazy. The dude like talks, talks, talks, talks. He gonna he don't stop talking. But their guys are oddly athletic, not skillful in the sense of like transition and stuff like that, but they can kick. But when they fight, dude, they gave they look a little like when you see them training, you're kind of like, oh, they're not so good. But when they fight, like they know how to score, they know how to defend, they know how to get in the way. They I mean, they're they're not running, they're not like they nobody got blown out. They were like winning a lot of matches. I was like really, really impressed with them. So but like, oh yeah, the guy that won, and I'm um I like him a lot. The kid that won Canada Open and US Open and Heavyweight. First day here, he went to sleep. Like I'm talking sleep, sleep, sleep. To a guy that was kind of your he's a heavyweight guy, but he's a short and stocky guy, and uh he was losing, but then the guy's

Conditioning Plans And Clean Contact Sparring

SPEAKER_02 12:40

attacked and then back whip, back spinning kick. I'm talking like I was scared, like I ran over there, and he's like in prone position. His eyes are like over. I mean, you know, it took him a while to come to, and uh he was fine. He was over attacking. He was like he he felt it like he he had a I think he was probably winning by like four or five, and he just felt he's good. The kid's really good. He's athletic, he's strong, he's fast, he's he's mobile, agile. I think he just felt it. He just got a little careless and a little reckless, and it it reminded me that, and don't talk about the junior worlds, it reminded me that it still can happen. It can still happen. You can go you can still go to sleep. It doesn't happen much. And like I know I agree with you, Hyung, there's a lot of tips, you know, you know, taps and stuff like that, a lot. I mean 98%, but there's still that 2% where you better be careful, and if you're in the wrong division, like the middle and heavyweight, welterweight, you can go to sleep real quick. And it was in practice. I mean, I haven't seen a person go to sleep in practice in a long time, bro. Long time. So that was that was crazy. So, but yeah, overall it's been good. They've been great hosts again. Um, this format was a little different. I mean, it's really not my cup of tea, but all the coaches have been taking turns running training, so you kind of get a little. I didn't feel like there was a good flow to it. It was a little like, you know. To our credit, I mean, I'm not trying to pat ourselves on the back. I don't think we try to outdo anybody, but I think like the Saudi coach was trying to outdo the Uzbek says, you know, they were just trying to show what they got and make it a hard training. And I didn't think it was actually necessary, but it is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

So, yeah, you got that many people in a room, it's always about the exchanging, right? The exchanging and the working together and doing that stuff. But that's cool. I'm jealous once again. I I've always interested in watching those guys train because you see the results, you see them fight at the world level, you see them, you just wonder. There has to be something a little bit different about what they're doing compared to what everybody else is doing. Because even the ones when I watch them lose matches, it's just like I almost feel bad. Not bad, but you know, it was a good game, it was a good fight. You know, they were in that match, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

I said the same thing yesterday. I was like, I feel bad for this guy from Tunisia. I feel bad for this Moroccan. I feel because they fought so well. I couldn't believe that it got to that. But I'll I'll tell you something, TJ. Like, I'm sitting here watching like a fanboy, I'm just on the side, and I'm watching the skill, I'm watching the technique of every from 58 to 80 to 80 plus 80, like the the the females. I'm just like, one after another, the flexibility, the speed, the the the accuracy. I'm just like, how can they, you know, like we all have like a couple good kids who are like, man, that kid's really good, everybody else will working, but like, how can they all be this skillful? Even guys that are not like the guy, they're still good, they're still working. I was gonna tell you something, Young. Like, you remember this old school? So, you know, we do a two-hour practice. I mean, everyone's dead, and we trade at Kune, everybody goes. As soon as they all these people just like they all pair up and they work on their specialty now. They're kicking shields, they're kicking mids. I'm looking like, you got you you you guys ain't done? Like, it reminded me of the old school because I remember when we go to Korea, people would do that too, you know, and and they all want to work on something that they I mean, some of them are holding on, just working their front leg, some of them working in the clinch. I just was really impressed that their commitment, because you could see also on their faces, these guys do this every single day, two times a day, three times a day, and then they're still putting in their own specific thing. They're still showing up to the you know training uh 30 minutes early to stretch. They're still doing a little bit afterwards, so their two hours ain't two hours, their two hours is for sure three hours. I mean, when it's all said and done, three and a half hours. I mean, it's legit. They're they're getting in the reps. You always say that, TJ, putting in the reps, putting in the reps. And so that's what was impressive. You know, well, it was last time and it is this time as well. So it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

That's pretty cool. Pretty cool. Uh let's move on to the uh junior worlds. You're like the guy on the ground, like you're like the reporter, you're letting us know what's up. I'm sorry. I'm at home just hanging out by myself here. What's what's uh how does Junior World so far? Definitely I watched a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah, it's been two days, you know, the first day and then he's heavy. The first day was uh talking about Taekwondo, don't let me leave. He loved it, he loves it. You know what he would appreciate if he saw in there, but um yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

I wish he would just sit and watch one like like a solid day.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

But it has to be a good tournament. I do agree with you know, because listen, I've been to some nationals, I've been to some team trials where you're kind of like, but I'm telling you, you go to something like this, TJ, the energy is off the hook. Like, I I love the senior worlds and stuff like that, and the level is high and the stakes are important. But when you watch these juniors, you just hear the the crowd, all the teams, all the kids. I I was just like yesterday there was 48 and 55 male and 55 female. The 55 females are huge. The 50 55 men are nasty. The 40, I'm just like, it was such high level, such good quality. I'm talking or I sent you and a couple of the people like, hey, watch this match. First match of the day, third round, just watch the third round. It's like to it's like a death match, and you feel sad for the one that's about to lose. You know, I mean, it's it's really, really crazy. But um uh China females, two gold medals. I mean, China doesn't even show up to these things normally. I told you that in this this part of the world, the Asian countries are gonna come strong the first day, China, Taipei, Korea. Like yesterday we'll China. Yeah. Uzbekistan got a gold and uh uh uh silver in the men's side. Um Korea's got one gold. I mean it's only been you know, well, there's yesterday there was three and three. There's only been six divisions, so today there's four.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Anything anything shocking yet? Anybody any anybody snuck through the curtain and ended up on a podium in like a tough division yet?

SPEAKER_02 19:02

Yesterday Oman Oman reached the final and in in 58. I'm sorry, in 48, and he was good. I mean, he was uh listen, like I said, everyone's good. I'm looking at like the Jordan kids are nasty. Uh Kazan, Uzbekistan are really good. I'm gonna I'm gonna give Korean boys uh some props, man. They look like old school, like they walking in like they're just trying to whoop up people. But check this out, young. There's a kid, 55 kilos, right? So basically like a male fin wave. But in Korea, he beat the world champion in 54 and he's going to the Asian games. This kid, this junior. He shows up over here. This dude is like butter, man. He's like, he's smoking these kids. Gets to the quarterfinal against uh Poland, big tall white boy, and obviously he gets in there, he's winning 10 to 10 to 5

Test Matches With Broken Scoring

SPEAKER_02 19:55

with like three, four seconds left. He's he exchanged with him. The the the the Poland kid does like axe kick, the Aaron Cook axe kick.

herb 20:05

I saw that.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I saw that put him to sleep, man. Go ahead, go finish, finish. I'm about to ask you.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

That's what I'm about to ask you. I heard he got up. We had a big debate last night. One guy was saying this, but I so what happens? He got up to his credit, he was like this, and the referee was counting, and the referee stopped and kind of like went back, like kind of like, okay, he's done, and then, or he's not done, like he's he's he's here. And so he went like that and put his hands on his knees, and then the referee went like that. The referee kind of okie doked him, you know what I'm saying? Like, kind of like started the count and stopped the count. So when the guy stopped the count, he went down to his like, you know, kind of like that, not not on the ground, just like that. And the referee was like waved it off. And so that brings me back.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

PTSD. You remember at the world qualifications when I got back kicked low and the referee started counting on opposite sides. I do remember that. No, I do remember that.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Azerbaijan. Yeah, yeah.

herb 21:01

I watched that knockout, and that shouldn't have been that should have been a DQ. And what the reason is that wasn't a striking implement. He got hit with the shin, he didn't get hit with the foot. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 21:14

There you go. That's a great point.

herb 21:16

He got hit with the shin in the face, and unless they're gonna change this the right, the striking implement, that's not a striking implement.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

So, you know what, a couple years ago at the Grand Prix, at one of the Grand Prix, they tried to ban that kick. And it was because Alessio had done it to CJ like two times. This giant, you know, the Alessio, the big talk guy, and that everyone was like, What are you talking about? Like if you it's a double kick, it's this again. So it's interesting you say that, Young, because it I could see them saying that you can't do that anymore because of what you're saying. Because, well, first of all, someone got KO'd about the city.

herb 21:52

A Mexican in another event, they posted a video of the Mexican they were making a big deal of the case. He shined he shinned them in the face. He didn't that wasn't a taekwondo kick. That was and it was garbage taekwondo. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

It wasn't, yeah. I love sensorists, but that one was a that one was a bad one for us to hype up. Like it just looked goofy. There was no extension. The kid just kind of fell into his shin and like he was below his waist. It was it wasn't it wasn't pretty.

herb 22:16

I mean, because then you gotta you gotta think about that. So now if you say if you want to go to striking implements, then that strike. So now what if I take my hand and instead of punching you to to to to beg the I elbow you in the chest with my forearm and I knock you out, knock the wind out of you. Well, how is that different to getting shinned in the face?

SPEAKER_02 22:41

I mean, I it's I I like the the comparison. It's if you lose to an elbow strike to the body, you deserve to lose.

herb 22:47

Dude, there was you don't have to worry about it. Nobody kicks or punches that hard anymore.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

If you go down to an elbow strike to the chest, I'm counting you out if I'm the ref.

herb 22:56

I think some of the things you said about the training camp, which I didn't comment on, um, and some of this stuff is pertinent. Like how all you know, there was, and you know this because you went through the Olympic training program and the education. So they have this thing if you train more than a certain amount of time, certain amount of whatever in a day, you're overtraining, right? But the reality is that we'd have practices and we'd have captain practices where we'd practice our individual stuff that we needed to practice because the group training is for the group and it's what the group needs to train. And the individual practices is where you refine what you are. And if you want to be great, and I was having this conversation with my athlete and some other and my son actually, I said, You got to ask yourself a question. Do you want to be good? Well, you want to be great. You want to be good, just do what everybody else does. Be in the room with the team and you'll be good because everybody's gonna get good. But if you want to stand out, then you gotta be great, and if you want to be great, then you gotta you gotta be different, you gotta do more, you gotta be smart.

SPEAKER_02 23:57

And TJ, maybe you'll agree with this, like young. So in the old days, we did that because the group classes that were generally led by people generally didn't give you what you needed. And so we did it out of necessity to get what we needed, but in a strange way, we were at the forefront because that's where we're at right now, right? Everyone trains in a group, but you need individual, individual practice. There's a lot of teams that are going to individual coaches, like TJ, you got this weight category and this weight category, and you focus on that, and I focus in. I know you used to always say that heavyweights shouldn't be doing the same drills as fin weights, and lightweight shouldn't be doing the same drills as a female. And we all knew that, like it, you know, intuitionally, but like it still was forced on us like just to train in a group training. So I see the benefit of the group training for the energy and the partners, yeah, but I also know that you have to do the other ones, and you're right. In a in a combative sport, not everybody hell, you might kick left leg and I might kick right leg. So if we partner up, it might not work well together. So listen, the individual training is this is necessary, and when I see these countries still doing it, I love it. It makes me want to go back home. I listen, I dude, I have like if I could show you the notes that I have, I'm trying to you know be a learner all the time. And I wrote notes from the tournament, I wrote notes from the training camp, I wrote notes from the coaches, you know, remember the drill that you know the Russian guy did, this, this, and this. It was cool. Like in pieces, it's it's good. But I it makes me want to go home and say, listen, individual practice, like work on your things, you know, even if I have to direct them right now because they may not know because they're still in that development stage. It's I think one of my I think another stage that I want to do is like teach them how to have their individual trainings by themselves, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

So yeah, I I I I agree and I then I disagree too. Because I think we I trained a long time with you, and I don't obviously I think I was pretty good for my time and I got the results that I got. Um, I I think the room, I guess the room dictates if you need more sometimes. I think I think the way our trainings were kind of ran and kind of the way I try to do my things, it's like I kind of give everyone the general um senses of what we're doing, and what the change is is like the follows. I'm like, okay, well, obviously you're heavyweight, or this is this, I'll give you a different option, or I see you're not good at this, so let's go this instead. I kind of try to mix it up that way a little bit more. But you're right. Yeah. I I just I just I always go back and forth about the because of this day and age and the number of tournaments they fight, quote unquote, because I it's hard to go. Is there such thing as overtraining still? I think I think when the training's done the right way, if you're doing contact at a 60%, 70% control, even good solid contact stuff, I think you can do a lot of it. I think it gets crazy when you overwork at a high level consistently the whole time when that with all the injuries and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

That's funny you say that because I was talking to I have a kid that's here and he's fighting the last day. And um, you know, I I talked to one coach and I said, listen, I he you need to this kid needs to train. This kid needs to go. Matter of fact, if you think you're gonna taper him and stuff like that, he's not at that stage. You're he he needs if he doesn't do enough work, he's gonna be bad. You you you're not gonna overtrain this kid. He's he's 14 years old, he's not even 15. He, you know, he has one-time training a day, and if you open his lungs up, you're not gonna burn him out. If you don't and you only do a 35, 40 minute practice, that's what's gonna hurt him because he's so used to reps, he's so used to doing work. But you're right, TJ, you get to the higher level, and I there's other people, other programs out there that rep, rep, rev rev rep, and it's a point of diminishing returns. Whereas before they get they're explosive at the beginning, but then they get a little bit, their muscles get fatigued, and then they they don't have lack of motive, they have lack of motivation, and then you just all that work is amounting for nothing.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

So um yeah, I think that's I think that's the difference. I think kids are kids are training different than it should be realistic. Whatever I know we've kind of merged this world a little bit because we got our nine, our 11, uh, 13-year-olds fighting for cadet world championships and stuff like that. But you know, the reality is I don't think seniors should be training like juniors and juniors should be training like seniors. I think there's a there's a big difference in how you approach it, you know what I mean? Oh yeah. I think not I think we've we've blurred the line of that a long time ago where we're we're feeding some of these kids that should be in development and growth. We're feeding them these quote unquote high-level, I don't know, techniques or what the whatever you want to call it, you know?

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Hey, I want to talk a little bit just real fast because I mean it's only been two days and there's still four more days or five more days left of this tournament. I'm sure it's gonna be good. I'm just really impressing the decision making with these kids. Like I you see them playing the system, you see them playing the match. So, system, I'm talking about what scores and what doesn't score. Then you see them playing the match, like I'm in a winning situation, I'm in a losing situation. I mean, I've seen kids throw back kicks at the right time, you know, spin hook kicks at the right time to win a match, and I don't think it was an accident. You know what I'm saying? Like it wasn't just a bunch of garbage, you know. It was you could tell these kids had done those kind of things because I think maybe in the West, we have a bunch of talented people

What Surprised Them About Saudi Fighters

SPEAKER_02 29:00

that throw a lot of stuff, and when it's landing, it looks good. You look like a rock star. But it's the opposite over here. These guys can do all that, and then they can score point-to-point, you know, situational, situational. I just seen kids being down by four or five points with like 30 seconds, and they're calm, and they get the body point, and then they close and they kick a face point and actually know they're winning by one, or they get a com. I I just the way that they piece together the matches is so impressive to me. It looks purposeful, and I think that's what listen. I watched Mexico, and the Mexico's been down, but they lost, I think, three or four quarterfinals. That means they got there, they were doing some good things, and they looked better prepared than maybe some other, you know, other western. You know, our guys, you know, have had a tough you know, flow. We had a kid from Miami that you know got into his third match yesterday, and he fought a tough Chinese Taipei kid who ended up losing his next match. So, you know, but I think you know, these other countries are used to somebody with a good front leg, they're used to someone that's a little wild and sporadic, where we are not. We're used to being the one that is dominant, you know, with the front leg. So um, this is it's a little scary, man. It's a little scary when you're talking when you said when you said our guys, you're talking about the U.S. team?

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, the U.S. guys, that's the one from Miami. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, man, well, he did really good yesterday. He had you know, he won two matches. And I tell you, I mean, I think the second match he won on a physicality. He beat a pretty good uh Ukrainian kid. Um, but you know, like I said, he when it got to the the Taipei kid, it was like like no no shade at all because he fought well. It's just the other kid was good too. You know, I mean it was a tough match.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Do you see any consistencies across the teams? Like as a as a whole, like I know you talk about the Koreans fight a certain way, or like the Uzbekistan guys look like this, or the Turkish guys look like this. Is there is there is there like an easy conclusion drawn for like that consistency across the entire junior team, or you know?

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Jordan looks really good. Uzbekistan and Kazan. Kazan's a little underwhelming for me right now. They're good, but something is missing, something isn't clicking, and maybe we will later on. Maybe they got bigger guns coming up. But the Jordan kids look very well prepared. They look, they they're they're so solid. Um, the Russians. I think the Russians are interesting because so far they look good, but I feel like they need a little bit more like energy. They almost look too calm, like, yeah, I'll go get the point. And sometimes they run out of time, and that's what I feel like. You just ran out of time. Like they're they're better. And they almost feel like they almost need a like a little more urgency, like I'm gonna go get it right now, and they probably would dominate. So, but that could also be a lack of international fighting recently. They've been fighting so much domestically because they haven't been allowed to go out, but they look they look different in the sense of like they have a different way to approach the game, to score. Um, pretty, pretty unique as far as their their angles and and the way they go. Um, China women, like I said, they're scary, man, to on the junior level to already have two gold medals and never basically never be here. They're about 16 people. They didn't mess around with like the 45 kilo people because how is that going to translate into the seniors? You have no idea what I mean. That's 10 kilos under for a male standpoint, like you know, before they even have any impact in FinWay, and they don't, you know, China doesn't really invest right now in male, you know, 54s, maybe 58s, you know, and 68, but so they're interesting. Just the level, I mean, I can get like I said, Saudis, the Moroccans, the uh, you know, all these countries over here, the Koreans, the Chinese, uh, the Taipei's, Thailand hasn't done much yet. So we'll see how they go. Um they just these kids look a little more polished than us, a little bit more put together. You keep saying the word comfortable, they just look more organized and comfortable in these situations. Like it looks like they're working to get a point and working to get where they're trying to get to, versus let me just see if I can cancel and kick, and let me just see if I can throw some stuff. You know, I don't know what's going on in the coach's ears. I mean, I think we had a one of our good girls, Sophia Cutter, like uh she lost her first match to Uzbekistan, and you know, it was a little listen, you never know what's gonna happen. And I know I've given, you know, I've thrown some shade at some of the coaches before, but all I know is his her home coach was um what is this? Her home coach was in the stands. He was on the on the on the on the staff and he wasn't in the chair. And I just think that's I don't know if he would have made yeah, man. I don't know if he would have made a difference. I mean, I like to think he would have, you know, I'm saying it like logically it makes a difference, but at least if he's in the chair, whether you win or lose, you're like, it was the right thing to do. To have him there, part of the staff, and

Junior Worlds Intensity And Early Standouts

SPEAKER_02 33:55

not in the chair.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Yeah, I just have to be acceptable. Yeah, it has to be unacceptable. Like, you you put him on the team, you you put him on the team, you put him behind whoever is their coaching. You've given this person that's their coaching, you're his home person while he's there on the trip. It you can't make that make sense. You're now you're just you're basically saying to him that this guy has more coaching experience than you at this level with a girl that probably they've never coached before. I don't even know whoever, I don't know who coached her, was a guy or girl. I don't even know who coached her. I didn't actually see it. But my point is, you you gotta fight for that one. And I'm just I'm gonna be real, like it or not, you gotta fight over that one. Some and even the other coaches on the staff for me, you gotta fight for that. You gotta be look, this makes no sense. Hey, whoever's in charge, listen, this guy's gonna be here. I'm a great coach, I can help, but that can't be the answer when they're home coaches on the same team of us in the same country at the same event. You you can't make that make sense.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

And I'm gonna take it one step further. Like, they paired everybody with people that they were familiar with, that they've worked with before, that they're they're close in region, you know. Uh, for example, my boy's getting coached by a guy that's in basically Fort Lauderdale that's in the area, kind of knows him. So you've you've done this, and now you have the ultimate. Like, this is not like you kind of know him. This is someone you is your person. Like, why wouldn't you just put him in the chair? And it would be different. Like, if you wanted to say the head coach, the Olympic team coach knows more than coach B, Coach X, because those are still new in the world level. But when those two coaches basically have the same experience, you know what I'm saying? Like this, the you know, this Jonathan Yu, he's got the same experience as anybody on that staff. I mean, has he walked into a world championship? No, but he's been to opens all over the place. He's been to trials all over the place. He has just as much experience, especially with his own person. Especially with his own personality, that's the part I get.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Like that's where I get stuck. It's just his person. It's literally just his person that he put on the the junior team. And and at trials, they she fought that uh they fought um what's her name? Um the other really good. The Cadet World Championships, right? Yeah, I mean, he was in that match. That's a big match for us in our country. So, like, you know, I I don't know. It doesn't make sense. He's on the team, he's not in a chair.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And at the Croatia Open. Yeah, and and that's what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna be a little, like, I'm gonna be a little, even the coaching staff, you gotta be like, if let's say somehow that was decisions made, the coaches gotta look back and say, wait a minute, wait a minute. I got coach you. He's on the trip. What why not slot him in there? Like what who who looks at that? And I'm gonna give all those coaches, I mean, they're all there, that says, you know what, it's better off having this person there. It it it makes zero sense. So that one I think is a mishap, you know, for the for the national team. Um, I don't know whose decision it was or what why why they came to that, but uh my point of it was I feel bad for Sophia. She didn't have a great uh event. Um, but I think it would have helped having her home coach in the chair instead of in the stands behind her. For better or worse, maybe she would have lost two. Maybe I'm not blaming the coach, I'm just saying the situation should have been with the home coach since he was there. That's I don't I don't know how you get around that. I don't know how you get around it. So I don't think that could be anybody better. Nope, nope, nope, nope. But we have a couple, I mean, we listen today, uh Joshua Lepe is fighting from the United States, he's a good 45. He's got a tough draw. I just talked about Jordan's first matches with Jordan. Um second matches probably Azerbaijan, and then oh Uzbekistan, like this is a tough little, it's not even that's into a round of like 16. I don't even think that's a quarter final. So between Jordan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, it's a tough, tough, but he's good. He's one that I don't know about the size because these kids could be very big. But if anybody giving a good run, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He can. He can. You want to get some of these questions, or you got what do you want?

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Yeah, I mean, it kind of fits into what we're already talking about a little bit. So we had a couple of questions from the Warehouse 15 podcast. Grandmaster, please chime in on this. Um, with a couple of people asked about the mindset of elite tech window fighters, which is funny because I know we were just talking about uh training and cultures and systems and all that stuff, which I know you want to talk a little bit more about. But um, you know, how do you go from a what's the difference between a good player and an elite player? How do you take someone in a training situation that is said they're good, but how do you make them better? Like, what's the recipe to get from good to elite? Um, and the last one was kind of just about like losing and coming back, which I think all blends into that whole thing. But I guess let's just start with, you know, what makes someone elite? What makes someone, I guess, uh we say special or you know, what sets them apart? The world, you know.

herb 38:52

So, in anything that you look at, whether it's economics, world, economies, people in general, you have a pyramid, right? And Coach Moreno remembers this from the days when we used to do camps together right after the Olympics back when I retired. And I'd always talk about the pyramid. And the pyramid is a good analogy because the reality is that most people fall into the bottom of the pyramid. That's everybody. Let's just show up. That's where you're at, whether that's life, economics, taekwondo, whatever. So that's probably the dojong level. Then as you escalate and improve and you go up higher in that pyramid, they become less and less people till you get to what I call the, and people call in different industries the one percenters. And what that means is you get from peak performers. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, pun intended, in fact, pun intended. The the reality is that you get people that are good and they have to determine that they want to be better. And they're and not everybody can be better. There are going to be people that are either more talented, work harder, or have a combination of both. But once you get to the one percenters, in other words, you're better than 95 to 96% of the people that you face or you train or do whatever, you then have to make a decision. And that decision is do you want to be good or do you want to be great? And if you want to be great, it requires two things at least. One is an understanding of where you sit in the mix, and number two, what's necessary to change it so that when you do face somebody who's good or better, how do you pass them? How do you get better than an M? And that's an individual journey that a coach can help with, or you yourself can help with. And in our cases, especially Coach Moreno and myself, we had to recreate that ourselves. We didn't have anybody. I didn't have anybody showing me the way. Coach Moreno, once he made the team, had people that were willing to show him the way. But prior to that, he might have had one coach that believed in him and helped him become what he needed to be to become an Olympic level champion. And that journey takes two things. It takes somebody willing to help you and you being willing to help ask for help and accept it. Number two, it takes you willing to be able to do the work that's necessary to become an elite athlete. And you cannot do it unless you have both of those components. Because you yourself, no matter how talented you are, no matter how hardworking you are, no matter how willing you are, you just simply don't have enough time and knowledge. And we always talk about the athletic curve, which goes like this and then goes like that, and then the intellectual curve. And one of the things that I wanted to mention about what Coach Moreno said was he's always learning. His intellectual curve keeps going up. And as all do all of ours. Our job as coaches now is to make an athletic curve, an intellectual curve, meet sooner so they can excel longer. And there are kids, and you know these athletes, there are kids who athletic curve was going like this, their intellectual curve went like this, and this they never met and they didn't stay there long enough. There are other athletes that they did stay there long enough and they have the truth. Now, without the willingness to understand that you're not good enough yet and to do what's necessary to become better, you have to start every conversation with what went well for me, what didn't go well for me. And you better start with what didn't go well for you. You can spend a few seconds on what went well for you, but you really have to have an honest conversation about what did I do poorly or what did somebody do to me. So and Coach Moreno, I have talked about this, and we've done a lot of seminars together. So you know is what I do is I first look at what I did poorly, and then I fix that for the next time so it doesn't happen. Then I look at what somebody did to me. If somebody scored a point on me, I looked at how they scored a point, and I tried to get that same technique and put it in my regimen and then how I could defend against it. So if you do that, whether it's in warfare, martial arts, taekwondo, business, you're going to be successful because you're always reinventing, recreating, and fixing the machine. If you, like Coach Moreno, before he became who he became, he was an unknown quantity. Nobody paid attention to him, and me or you. Once you win, you now have to reinvest in yourself because everybody's watching you. And you now have to recreate, reinvent, and do something different for the next time around. Otherwise, you're gonna lose surviving success.

SPEAKER_02 43:35

Yeah, learn how to survive success. You know, I know people always say, you know, it's it's hard to get to the top. It is hard to get to the top, but it's actually harder to stay on the top because everyone's taking a shot at you. You know, I mean, you're you know, and some people, you know,

Axe Kick Knockout And Rule Arguments

SPEAKER_02 43:50

I'm gonna jump in and say, like, you know, I for me, what defines a great good from a great is is these athletes that there's something. innately in them that you could tell that they they enjoy the training, they enjoy the fight, they're just not good at it. They're just not like you know excelling at it. There's something in them you see them like they they can't wait to practice or they can't wait for the moment to fight. And I think that's a it's a hard thing to get to but when I when I see what do you mean by that what do you mean by it's a hard thing to get to like what like how like what is that what's that what's that what's that I I always I always um you know go back and forth between some people have it and some people don't and then I say can some people develop that and this is the truth of the matter some people have it they have the it factor some people are leaders right they get they're charismatic they know how to talk to people and they can do it. And some people are super intellectual and they have all the information but they don't know how to lead they can't lead it's just bottled up. So some people have it some people don't and then there's people that you can develop you can say you know what there's something there and then they can they can they can excel and I have to say that they can develop because if not I would always be looking for the person that would be it herb you would have never had a chance because you're too short and we would have never looked at you. TJ you're too short I would have never looked at you. So if it only said who has it is is home I'm gonna invest in I also look for those characters of that there's something in there but can I develop it and bring it out and then it's gonna be up to that person of course to to to kind of go with it. So for me TJ like you know you're asking me what is that it's like I said it's it's it's a it's a person that that embraces every challenge every every every step in the in the in the process and not just because they're winning that's a that's a misconception people like someone's good they think that they have it that could be for the moment you know I use the the the idea actually I had a two things I I used the the the analogy of at the US open this kid and he gave he's a world champion he gets to the final he's dinged up he had every reason to step out and not fight the final against CJ and he looked at me and he was just like no I I I will fight and I just was like what a what a great he he didn't care about the winning or the losing he was just like I'm here to compete and I'm gonna compete and if I lose so be it but if I win this is what I came here for he didn't need the points he didn't need the drama he's the world champion he didn't need any and he's a little bit his knee is messed up but when I saw that I'm like this is a guy that's not afraid of the moment I see a lot of people play it safe a lot of people just kind of like they'll they'll they'll give all those excuses that I just said to not do it and it makes sense and then there's that that less than one percent says no problem not afraid of the moment we had an evaluation I was evaluating every single person on what's going on with the camp and I said with this guy I go he's the standard everybody watches his speed his power his intellect his energy and he has all of it right now we have some other ones that are really talented in world medals and Olympic medals and they're not all for those things.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Then I know he's young and stuff like that but we're trying to instill and kind of bring out those pieces all the time because that's what's going to make him not just great for the moment not just special for the world championship but for like you said young for a longevity and I think that's gonna be I think he's on the right path so when I see that mindset TJ I haven't seen people like that in a long time even in my own generation yeah yeah go ahead I was about to say that's about I I I'm saying the same thing I think it's I think we all look for that right I was I was fortunate enough to get to Miami when there was a room full of killers like it was just a lot of people that were hungry in the room per se levels changed up and down left and right good and bad but like I think everyone in the room wanted to win and everyone in the room wanted to be there to compete so they had an option and a chance to go win later on. So and I I I I find I mean obviously I don't have a big room of a lot of people but I've been able to you know when I was at WCAP I had a good room of people and I was able to get them to be a little bit competitive but like it I mean Miami was special. Those days at the warehouse for me during the time that I was competing in training were special because it was just you had the work you had the people willing to work you had you had challengers you had testers you had people that were better than you it's just it it it made sense but I felt like the overall everybody showed up because they wanted to be there. You could feel their energy when they came through the door you know the the buildup was real when you saw a room full of people and they're like training's about to start I think both you guys are right on I think elite is just the the consistency and and that willingness to go I don't want to win once I want to win for a long time. And I used to say it a lot was like you know you got to have a short memory when you win or lose I think more so these days with the with the state of where we are you got to have real short memory when you win. And I think the best do the ones that are the best the best the best elite the elite the elite like you said they win or they lose they go back home and they're right back to work because that one's over with that one's in the bag that one's on the shelf and I got to do it again. And I I I think at some point in our country in the US just specifically we had enough people in our pipeline that pushed that kind of action that you couldn't go to sleep on our our system wasn't so protected. We we had to go back to team trials.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

You know I think we've kind of taken that away and I I I feel like that other side of the world they'll have more chance at having elite players and strong players because of the system that these guys are being put through yeah I mean to that point I mean I I again even from just I I man I just keep talking to the coaches and asking them questions and it's to get information like this TJ because I got like what what way does that girl what way does that boy oh they're a team but then they lose at the I'm like wow like they had to go step back and they're good. They go to Turkish open they win they go to this open they win they come domestic and they lose and they bring the next guy but it creates this not these this team like instead of this team of individual superstars you got all these people underneath there like you said are hungry to get there and and going to my point and your point about the room like we need that room we need that room but it's got to be a healthy room because I think they try to recreate that you know in some places but it they did it in the wrong methodology because it still has to be fun still has to be enjoyable it it can be competitive but not vindictive it's not not not do or die. I said this I said this before real fast yesterday we were at the training and um the the Uzbekistan we were on a quick little break and Uzbekistan was fighting I forgot who. Anyway they were in the semifinal quarter final yeah semifinal quarterfinal and they're like they're watching all the coaches are watching because there's a group of coaches and also in unison when the kid won they all just start cheering and going crazy and clapping and hugging the whole squad we're just like oh it was against Jordan it was funny it was against Jordan and they're going crazy and crazy and I'm just looking at everybody going I can't think that if we had our national senior national team and all of a sudden a junior popped through and got a medal that everybody would be embracing like the the the again the the the village that these guys have with each other is second to none like second to none and and why do you think that is perfect segue thank you I went to the the a gala didn't want to go and uh the fact you know coaches asked me to go so I go there it was a huge WT first of all I'm gonna I forget that I'm 55 years old I forget that I've been in the industry for 40 years and when I'm going around seeing all these people chunk of chun all these I'm shaking hands giving hugs talking to people and I'm just kind of like I felt good about how many people that I knew and some of the coach I was with didn't know any of these people I'm introducing them it was good but then I looked at the Uzbekisting team and they had like all these people came back. You remember like uh Dimitri the the middleweight guy and the heavyweight guys that showed a remember those guys they and they were there and then the current community they the whole national team was there. Like and I'm just looking at this going the coach the old Korean coach the big guy he was there and they're all I'm just going this is legacy. This is like we'd be having our uh you know her perez there uh Hanwalek just all these people around where everybody knows them and they all athletes come and bow and I'm going this

Overtraining Debate And Individual Practice

SPEAKER_02 52:30

is legacy this is tradition this is this is how you create this this thing that people know they're they're they're you know the people that laid the groundwork for them even though the new ones are the stars but the old ones are there and it's just you see it from the coaching staff to the athletes I mean dude like these guys had heavy hitters there they had the president's son there and he knows all of the athletes he's a personal friend of Rashab I mean this I'm looking at all this stuff and going we have none of that we can't even keep our our our most recent Olympian around we can't keep our our world champion around there's just no culture and so you know I think all that goes into all this to the training camp that we we just talked about. It goes into what makes these young kids here great or want to be great because they see their their predecessors and they're like I can do it and I can do more of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

And that's what I'm trying to create in Brazil to be honest with you when I look at you know developmental um of the of the program and in as a whole but yeah it used to be a little different for us too I think I didn't get it as I I got it when I was uh on the junior team I mean we got to go and train with the senior team we got to be in the same room as a senior team and for me those are those are big moments I think I was a 16 year old kid looking at these older ones like I'm gonna get this guy I'm gonna get him eventually but we were all in the same room training together and it just what it was and I think it it did give us that connectivity. I know a lot of guys that were in that generation above me that I have mad respect for. Like I just they were the real deal I just wanted to be better. I just wanted to be better than them in that moment. And that's important but there is that culture. I think like you said we've talked about it a lot somehow somehow you look at everyone in United States of America not everyone that's a big chunk of the people in the United States of America that have had success at this sport have been around for a long time have influenced the way the sport is gone uh made Olympic podiums put the country on the map are disenfranchised. They're not even part of it. They're just not even existing we have such a great culture is and history of winning and it's all just been pushed to the side for whatever this look at me and it has to be this this this situation we got going on.

herb 54:42

And it's so it's you know it's yeah there's fear right so we've talked about this and I don't want to waste a lot of time on this but I will mention this because I've had this conversation with other people about other um other situations and so it doesn't if you don't create a culture of legacy and success and if you don't honor those that built the the if you don't honor those who built the path that you travel now and built the mountain that you now climb then you lose lose it doesn't matter for us. It doesn't matter for me it doesn't matter for the guys that came before me but it matters for you. And the reason it matters for you is now you're not building a culture where people can look up to someone and can see it's attainable. So if you don't see it as attainable and you don't see a history of it occurring then you don't see it as possible. And so you only do disservice to the organization and to yourself. So um and it's interesting because I see it done well in certain countries and Iran was one of them. When I went to Iran once a week they had this huge training thing where all the world former world champions current world champions national champions they all got in one room and trained together and all the coaches were there. You see it in Korea. When Koreans fight if they came from a middle school a high school a professional team they made it to an Olympic team at the trials you would see all three of those guys standing up and cheering for them and they understood their legacy where they came from and and what mattered. So I don't say it because of us I I really don't care. I don't necessarily like the leadership of taekwondo but for them to try to erase the fact that we built the room they stand in and I'm not talking just about athletically I'm talking about everything. We built the organization that the USAT wouldn't exist without us we I was on the board of directors for and coach Moreno was and you were an athlete we all created the rules and the coach the actual coaching program that they try to use now we created that was not them that was the brainchild of myself coach Moreno that point coach Lopez Bob Gambardello Scott um what's Scott's last name? Novak say Novak and then the the Olympic professional guy he brought in whose name escapes me at the moment we created the foundation the funding and the matrix and the seminar program that they currently use we created now you could ignore that they're not using it the same way they're not using it the same way and by the way I don't want any credit for the way they're using it currently but we found you we fo we found you TJ at one of our camps right you were one of the guys that we identified by the way that we did it.

SPEAKER_02 57:31

The structure of what they did we built yeah you use the word legacy but I'm gonna I'm gonna say tradition if like any successful company they have a tradition of things and that's what I'm saying like and now now because they haven't they've disenfranchised great word TJ they disenfranchise people and they're obsolete to bring them in now there's such a gap where nobody really knows. So you you've broken the tradition if tradition only works is if people really know each other. If you just if someone says hey here's your great great great grandfather that you never met before there's no you have no connectivity to them because they're just it's too far. And so what happens is you're relying and this is where we're at in our country correct me if I'm wrong we're just waiting for these one offs to come up and do something special. If we have a connection if we have a tradition then like you said TJ these little kids can look at these cadets can look to juniors juniors can look to seniors seniors can look to Olympians Olympians can look to past leadership and they there's all this connection going on and and they don't have it. So here we are here we are so it's tough.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah I mean I don't know I live in this fantasy world of figuring out how because when you you know it's it's cool to hear all these stories of the you know junior worlds and how all these you know countries look good and their you know their style and their and is there a way I want to know not necessarily want to know I don't I think we got to try harder I mean my goal at the end of the day like how do we get there as the United States of America because I it doesn't but it doesn't start in at senior level obviously you're saying it right now this it starts at cadets it starts at juniors it starts it's starting it's developed it's building you made a statement earlier about you know even let's say the decision of China not bringing 45 because it doesn't translate into 54 these these countries are putting actual thought process into how they're approaching the junior game that's gonna lead them into the next Olympic game with the next world cycle and all these things and meanwhile we're doing these for us we're still in the country right now like you said doing these one off national teams and putting the staff together and and no continuity and no and no building and just hoping that something sticks against the wall before I ask you you you made this comment I'll I'll let you answer it.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Remember when you said you're a junior team like what was some of the things that were important to you when you said from a coaching that you always said you you said what there was always big coaches in the room right yeah for sure remember you said you said the national team coaches were there and they gave Italian coach Claudio is here Ferris Jordan coach is here the Chinese coach is here like it's crazy when you look at the like these guys are serious about their junior programs.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

Uh-huh because that is their future I don't know why we can sit here and pretend that there's no quote unquote you know the scientists over there there's no correlation between junior success and senior success. The dumbest thing you can ever say they're like you just said the big guns are in the room watching they care about the program I'm gonna say this again there's no way you keep me away from that event I'm going if I want any coaching staff and I'm in their position as the head coach of the United States and I'm I'm I'm the high performance director I'm the whoever else I'm the program director of coaches I'm in the building because my eye I'm getting paid more than you because my eye is better because my skills they're in a chair they're in the chairs I mean it's crazier even crazier I think you got to look at the trend everything is going younger and I will say I have some thoughts and maybe today's not the day to talk about like the Western development versus the eastern development and maybe even the European development I have some some thought processes but just because yeah write that down we're gonna talk about that next time um and and I'm seeing here but it's obvious that a lot of these countries are looking at their um 16 17 year olds you know these these certain weight categories like I was I text a couple of my friends and I was like yo these 55 pound 55 kilo girls they're gonna be 57 I mean we have a great one we have merch we've entered two year cycles and I I don't like shit we've entered two year cycles you know so I mean I hope there's a way in a day that I want to show up as a national team I actually feel like we have a full program. We don't have a program we have we have people that make the national team and teams and go on events.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:54

We don't have a program so let me ask you this because you asked like how do we change that and stuff like that I believe in in it's so cliche leadership but do we plug the holes do we wipe clean like what do you do and I well I'm gonna tell you what you do. Just look at any other franchise any other business thing. A new CEO comes in maybe there might be one or two pieces that he keeps but he brings in his staff right he he he he changes the culture there's

The Mindset That Makes Athletes Elite

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

a reason why you did that because you know if you're the I don't know what basketball team if you're the min not the Minnesota what's a what's a bad basketball team right now I don't know 76 or so you know if you bring in a new coach you gotta change the environment and I think right now like no matter how good things are or bad is a shelf life.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

And I don't know what that shelf life is it two years is I mean some sports they give you two years and by the third year if you're not doing it you're out and it's the same thing if someone's been there six or seven or eight years and you're basically in the same position that you were last time then you might want to look at when you're writing a script and telling the the group what's good and what's bad and like you like to talk about grandmas to the board is clearly not paying attention they've they've blurred the lines of what success is you you told me just listening to your words about the junior world championships and kind of like that side of the world I mean we're not that successful obviously I know we got a bunch of days left and I I really wish we us well like I know I got a we got dan I think Danny fights the last day I want these kids to have a big world championship Josh Alotti yeah Josh Alotte yeah I want them to have a big world championships um but I I I I you can't tell me we're at the same pace as these countries if we get through it's gonna be a again a one-off but again again again who's here who's here to support us is the CEO here are the Olympic coaches here is the high performance director here is like none of them I haven't seen them any board members here they travel around to all the other things but again you look at these other countries and they are how are you not like how do you not want to again I think I said this a long time ago about US open and nationals and team trials and all this stuff how are you not if you're taking this country seriously how are you not at the junior world championship how are you not there you can't tell me you care you can't tell me you care don't tell me your schedule is busy don't tell me you got some big events coming up because so does the rest of the world you it it you don't care it's impossible there's no big events there's no big events I mean again I'm not saying I don't I I I'm not paying attention I don't know who's here who's not here but I haven't I mean I don't think that they are here but listen it's tough it's it's it we're in a tough situation and I know there's potential and stuff like that but you know I think you know I Hyang you've asked a couple times like should we solve the should we put our our ideas of how to how to write this ship and it's sometimes it's on the tip of my tongue to say blah blah blah and just kind of throw some things out there but on the other side of me I'm like it's not mine to figure out I know that sounds like a I'm like I'm being a jerk right now but it's not mine to figure out if you want my help then then ask my help or if you want to I mean and maybe we can just kind of as a as a you know football armchair quarterback kind of guy is like hey I think we should do this this and this I I again I I think everyone I think you guys are probably again smartest technical people I talk to on a regular basis with ideas like you said longevity in the sport and sport development and all those things but we keep getting back to the same point I don't think these points that we're hitting are like rocket science. No you know I I don't think it's like it's normal and when you tell me that other countries do when you tell me the Italy head coach is there when you tell me the Jordan head coach is there when you tell me that these big dogs that are having success at the senior levels are there at the junior worlds in there with the teams they're here bro there's your answer they're here they're

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Listen, I mean, I think I've had I know for sure two. My brain scrambled from like training camps or trying to pay attention to matches and stuff, but I know for sure I've had two two different countries ask me about they call it's funny, Hispanic people call it planification, but you know, organizing structure and stuff like that. And it's funny that people like just that anybody would say, Yes, I'd like to talk to you about like how you organize it, what you think, and if you could look at our structure because I think I'm doing something wrong, and how can we do more? Like it's funny that people just randomly ask that of me, and not anywhere close to home. That's strange for me, but not that I'm gonna offer to give that to them, but just for a point topic.

herb 1:06:46

So I mean I still think you know, and I this is where we both we all differ just slightly. Um I still think we have an obligation, an affirmative obligation to offer a plan. I I'm not a big fan of, and I know you know we don't want to help anybody or not help anybody, but I I'm gonna say that the plan doesn't necessarily help them because my first my first three steps before we can do anything are revolutionary, not evolutionary. So if I were gonna offer, and I thought about this a little bit today, because I know we always shy away from the subject, my very first thing would be the removal of the board of directors, followed by the removal of the staff from Alfeasance and removal of the sport organization as a whole. Internationally, my second would be the removal of WT as a recognized governing body, or the removal of its leadership, or both. That's my first steps. I'm not trying to correct them. I don't think they can be corrected. I think left to their own devices, they would just go back to where they are. Then I have a plan, a very detailed plan on how to fix both, based on experience, knowledge, and actual success in other sports and our sport included. So when we're having this conversation, this isn't about teaching them the secrets of winning. This is about saying you're incapable of winning, you're incapable of fixing this. Now, here's how we fix it. And part of that plan would be getting the masses, getting the people that we talk to, the people that we know love the sport, love the art, and getting them riled up to where they see the possibility of revolution and evolution. And that's where I'm headed. Uh otherwise it's not worth it because right now the clown car is full. The clowns are in charge of the car, and nothing good is happening as a result. Now, I I'm not the kind of guy to swing for a single. I want to swing for home runs because in this situation, that's what's necessary. So now whether that can happen or not, it doesn't matter to me. I don't I don't even like what I'm watching. I can't watch the sport anymore. Um and I applaud you guys for being able to do what you do and stay in the room. I'm definitely outside the tent urinating on it rather than being inside of the tent pissing outward. So um, but with that said, that's that's my mindset. So I'm ready to have that conversation, albeit philosophical and maybe um poetic and and rhetorical, but I think it needs to be had. So at least then I can say I told you so.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

Yeah, yeah. I again, and we're at I want to talk about this, we'll talk about a little bit more next time, but we're still doing they're doing a training camp up here at the national center and calling it an audition. You're gonna audition. What does that even mean? You're gonna audition, you're gonna show up, you're gonna pay your money first. Wait, you're gonna register and pay your money first. Don't let me skip that part. And if you pay late, there's a late fee. Don't get it twisted. You better register early. Don't, don't, don't get the super savers. Why is that the favorites for get the make sure you get the super savers for this one because you're gonna need it? But they're saying this is audition for 2028 Olympics.

herb 1:10:23

I'd stand, I'd stand up and show you my super saver. You want to see my super saver?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:28

No, I'm good. Um 2028, that's like they're looking at two different uh groups, 2028 and 2032. As if one, I'm I'm gonna start here, as if there's some magical kids out there that's gonna just pop out of nowhere and gonna be ready for the 2020 Olympic Games, it's absolutely absurd. Second, if we're talking about development, because this is where we're kind of talking about fixing it, we're charging people to go come and be in this room and we're gonna look at you. And because you're in this room, we're gonna pick from this pot and put you in 2028 or 2032. So they've circumvented states, regionals, nationals, team trials, all of that. The national team, none of that matters. It don't even matter no more. You're you're you're you're telling me I just gotta go to this camp, and if these coaches up here like me, or Dei Hun Lee likes me because he'll be there this time. That's I think that's why they bumped up the price a little bit. De Wun Lee likes me, then they're gonna accept me into this program. So now you're telling me we have a whole national team of juniors competing right now. We have a whole senior national team of athletes already right now. We have the results from our team trials, results from our nationals, results, results, results, and none of those results matter. Only thing that matters is that you show up that day, you pay your money, and we're gonna make a decision and we're gonna put you in a group of 2028 or 2032. What is you're telling juniors and cadets or whatever age they are that right now they're gonna select you and you're gonna be the Olympic group for 2032. If you come to this camp that day in front of these coaches and they select you, don't worry about nationals, don't worry about team trials, don't worry about states, don't do none of that. Just show up and pay

Legacy Culture And The US Leadership Problem

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

your money. What are we doing? But how do you call it audition? How can you how can you call it? They literally wrote the terminology audition. Even the whoever's in charge of their selection and USOC and all these other people, you you're holding an audition outside of our what do they call it, their pathways that that outside of your pathways, there's an audition. By the way, come to this audition and you still could be in the mix. Don't worry about any of this stuff. This is important. Just keep paying your money because yeah, just don't worry about that. That's just an illusion. Come this day to this this room, and we're gonna select you.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:00

You know what's crazy? You know what's crazy? People are gonna pay their money and go.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:10

That have already been coming out there training for free when they want. They've already been in the room. Whoever gets chosen has already been in this room. Already.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:22

So when you talk about how to fix it, they're not trying to fix it. I don't know what they're doing.

herb 1:13:27

Where the what you're trying to flim, they're trying to flim flim flam it. They're flim flammers, but it goes back to the seminal problem, no pun intended. Um, the the guy who's running the organization is the chief flim flam artist. He used to do commercials in Australia for for flim flamming. So he's a flim flammer. So why does that surprise anybody?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:54

These these national coaches will go do a seminar in New York and charge whatever they charge for a room full of 30 people, but won't get their ass on a plane to fly to the junior world championships to support the team. How about that? What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_07 1:14:14

You're going like, yeah, you're definitely for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:20

And it's if you get first, second, or third, shit of like we talk about it, we talk about it all the time, though.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:28

Like making the national team doesn't really mean what making a national team used to mean. You're not in some group unless you're like, you know, in the mix or whatever, but they yeah, in their room, like you're still irrelevant. You go on the trip, you go back home just like they're doing with our juniors right now. Like, what what what is that telling people? Like, what do I do with my guys? Hey, let's go pack it up. We gotta go up here for this audition. If you guys want to go to Olympic Games in 2032, you gotta be in this room. You gotta pay this money.

unknown 1:14:55

And I guess they're wishing that they would actually get their guys up there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

No shot. No shot. No shot. They've only taken people out of my room. Anyone who I've been connected to have had any kind of successes, either exited the building and are up there having to work with them. I mean, it's been going on since page, and you know that. Since since since back then, they've been trying to pull the Okie doke since we go back, we talk about the Calfanis of the world. We talk about all the people that were, you know, that I'm working with that now they cornered and they're doing their thing and they would act like they weren't helped in the process of tournaments that they've coached them at afterwards to to qualify for those tournaments. These guys are goofy and they're they're I would say pulling the wool over people's eyes, but I can't even blame them no more. Like this, it's it's absurd, no?

herb 1:15:36

Yeah, but is it really is it really pulling the wolves over wool over somebody's eyes if they are willing to do it? In other words, that's what I just said. People are just if people are that dumb, that stupid, that gullible, that blind, is it really pulling you're not pulling the wolves? If you can't flim flam somebody who can be flim flammed.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:57

They're like this though, everybody's handcuffed. Everybody's handcuffed, dude.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:01

What are you gonna do?

unknown 1:16:06

Unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

And you watch, you watch the kids in that room, you watch who feels in that room, you watch all the faces that end up in that room and get named for these teams afterwards. They've already been paid for, talked about, negotiated, and what the direction that's gonna happen is gonna happen. It's just unfortunate that the rest of the country that let's say can't make it out there that day, don't want to go out there that day, aren't ready to be out there that day. Um, the coaches don't believe in the system to bring them out there that day. All those kids are gonna be overlooked for this audition where nationals and all that stuff don't matter. We're just you're just paying the money, and all you gotta do is really just go up there if you think you're good enough and you know, just put them in.

herb 1:16:40

You become a system. Uh I mean, TJ, listen, I can I can help you. I I mean I've got this special system. I just want to let you know. So all you got to do, I'm gonna have an audition, I mean interview. And it's um I get this call every day from my business, by the way, where I've been selected, pre-selected for a loan of a hundred thousand dollars for only twenty-three dollars a month. Um exactly. Yeah, you know, I've had that money before. I've I've had that. They give you more money for American money, but when you pay your hotel bill, they want you to pay in American money. And the reason is they get more money on the black market for a hundred dollar bills there. So, um true story, right? You're a millionaire. Stay there, you're a millionaire. You're a billionaire.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:44

Yes. Uh yeah.

herb 1:20:01

She might be in the mafia, man. Oh, she wasn't. All right.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:50

Oh my God. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_08 1:21:02

That's that's a crazy approach to take though.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:05

Just coming in hot. She must have she must have Skittles in her book bag or something. She might have, you know, have some good stuff in there.

herb 1:21:43

Any country you go to in the world, there are two things you can find. Two things. One of them is a Korean restaurant, and the other I'm not gonna say out loud. But yeah, those those are the two things that you find anywhere. I was in Egypt, I found, you know, anywhere. We we have we beat this horse for quite some time tonight. So anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:36

I lost enough when we take in week breaks. No more week breaks. This week break stuff gotta stop.

herb 1:22:42

Dude, that was you guys. That was that was you guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:46

That was the internet though. Monkey said what people people think we run it, we didn't we we ran out of material to talk about or something.

Final Jokes And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_07 1:22:56

Yeah, you think like by eight years differently.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

Yeah, we'll put I'll put I'll write that down too with the other stuff. But thank you for the update from Uzbekistan. Thank you, gentlemen.

herb 1:23:17

Stay out of trouble and uh represent us well. Remember, as we say, this is Korea, baby. Yep, on me on the back from our vacation of unintended consequences because we had some conspiracy out there. I think the WT, the WQ, the AAU, the ABB, the uh the color brothers of brown and green conspired to not let us have our usual meeting last week, but we are back back from Ubekistan and from uh the home of dental professionals.