Mount Olympus Is Not A Highlight Reel

A viral “Mount Olympus of Taekwondo” post sparks a bigger argument: who actually earns greatness in a sport built on results, not hype. We draw a hard line between highlight culture and championship culture, then start naming the legends people keep skipping when they talk about the best Olympic taekwondo fighters of all time. If you care about history, standards, and what real dominance looks like, this one is for you. 

From there we pivot to the uncomfortable truth longtime fans keep saying out loud: modern WT taekwondo can look like a different sport. We break down how electronic hogus, the Protector and Scoring System, and point incentives reshape technique from the beginner level up, rewarding stuck legs, canceling, and sensor hunting over retraction, angles, rhythm, and clean basics. The athletes are not the problem, the system is, and we talk about what coaches can do right now to build complete fighters anyway. 

We also pause to honor Day One Moon and what it means to lose pioneers who built national programs from scratch. Then we get practical, comparing Europe vs Pan Am depth, the wild card pipeline, and why credibility slips when access replaces earned selection. Finally, we talk governance: board oversight, missing transparency, and the Olympic Charter window around LA 2028 that could allow the community to challenge USA Taekwondo’s NGB status and force real accountability. 

If this conversation hits home, share it with your coaching circle, subscribe, and leave a review. Who is on your taekwondo Mount Olympus, and what is the first rule change you would make?

Transcript

Warmup Banter And New Merch

herb 3:14

Been a minute, but only a minute, and we are back. This is the Warehouse 15. And I want to just point out the fact that we have a new t shirt out for our comrades in arms. I put it out on the website, and every once in a while. So if you have not downloaded the podcast, the Warehouse 15 podcast app. There's an app that'll get you to the merch and to the um podcast. And then there's a community there where you can commune with each other. You can talk and share your woes and your hoes with your brothers. But as I uh yeah, I know exactly like that. Why did TJ start to smile when I said the second word? But we are back, and I've got some ideas on what I'd like to talk about tonight. But before we do that, we got a little color going on here today. I I decided to go black is back, and uh Moreno's doing some sort of guava, and uh that looks like guava military guava suava meant uh Chicago colors, baby. Chicago uh is that what that is like oh nice well you you know what the police I know you're from Chicago, you've been. Is that a Pop Tart?

Juan 4:18

Pop tart. I haven't had a Pop Tart in two decade, and my dog's your favorite Pop Tart.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

What's your favorite cherry?

Juan 4:26

Cherry Cigars.

herb 4:28

Cherry and no frosting for me, though. No.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Well, it's gotta be the it's gotta be the sugar potty. Yes. Can you see if we have any Pop Tarts? Premier Pop Tart, brown cinnamon sugar.

herb 4:42

Well, you I mean, are they real Pop Tarts or you get those bougie Pop Tarts?

SPEAKER_04 4:46

No, the home tarts are real Pop Tarts off the shelf next to the rest of the bad stuff.

herb 4:52

Because you know there are people trying to make real, like you can go to like fancy places and get like hostess cupcakes, but done like by gourmet chefs. And they do the same thing with Pop Tarts. You can get like, you know, Let Pop Tart instead of whatever. I don't know what to tell you. Well, I heard that our Korean my Korean t-shirts and my Korean um uh my honor of Koreans and my my uh my depiction is being very well received by by Mr. O. So he uh I heard he really likes it. So I'm I'm gonna try to find a place to stick that in today. No

Who Belongs On Taekwondo Olympus

herb 5:30

pun intended. But um I I I do have something I think we should start on, and I I just am amazed because we all come from a culture of excellence, and I just finished the book on um my memoirs and the stories of my life and what it taught me. And I put a story in there about our brother Naeem Hassan and some other people. Um, but we come from a culture of excellence, and I can't ever remember celebrating not winning and how that could become a thing. And then I saw the weirdest post from either Moss, Moose, Mookie, Mundo, Taekwondo, where they put up the Mount Rushmore of Taekwondo, and I'm like, in what world is that the Mount Rushmore of anything? The Mount Flushmore toilets of Taekwondo, there was one person on there that you could argue wants some stuff. Um, and it was ironic the guy that came here, but the rest of, I mean, give me a break. They're good fighters, but that's not the Mount Rushmore at Taekwondo. They have forgotten these youngsters, these young upstarts, these whippersnappers, these lethargic, cathartic, non-amnesic players, probably because they don't get kicked in the head enough, they don't know what it feels like. They forgot what taekwondo is because there wasn't a single person on that that should be on the Mount Rushmore of Taekwondo. I mean, let's start with that. I'm gonna give you four. And by the way, there are no women, and you can take that for what you want on the Mount Rushmore of Taekwondo. There's none. Because you got to first get through the men. You can have the women's rushmore of taekwondo, but the Mount Rushmore of Taekwondo, there's no one that I can think of unless I'm missing somebody, maybe Mrs. Moreno. But let's start. You want to start, or I'll give you my first for the Mount Rushmore, shall I?

Juan 7:31

First of all, I think they said something like it was the the gods or something like the gods of taekwondo or something like that. That's what I was gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

I don't think it was Mount Rushmore.

herb 7:40

But same thing, same same difference. Mount Olympus. And I take offense to that word because there is only one Olympus. There is only one Olympus. And on the Mount Olympus of Taekwondo, this is what he looks like. But go ahead.

Juan 7:57

No, no, no. I mean, um yeah, I saw that. And I'm not sure what what that that company's been doing recently because they've been putting things up like if if they didn't play taekwondo, what what sport would they play in gymnastics or figure skating or wrestling? No, but they have like they have pictures of like two athletes in in baby form who would win in the in a baby match. It's just like I'm not quite sure. I didn't see that.

herb 8:29

I got I couldn't get past uh I couldn't get past the uh the gods of taekwondo won. You know, the spinning frenzy. I when did spinning chaotic spinning without scoring become something that each other there's no there's never been a better spinner in the freaking planet than Servette.

Juan 8:45

Okay, correct. There's no correct not even close. Let's start there, even close. Let's start there. Actually, I shouldn't have commented. Chaos and disaster. I did comment. I said, you know, you guys forgot about Servet. You guys forgot about Chung Gook Yun. You guys forgot about the Huang girl who won two Olympic gold medals.

herb 9:02

You forgot about let's start with Chung Cook Young.

SPEAKER_04 9:06

Let's let's start with Jungle now just because they're just trying to draw attention to their website. I mean, like if we're just gonna speak to the case.

Juan 9:12

I actually said two of the nuts said two or three males are are missing an Olympic gold medal. Like, that's a little strange, but anyway, I I agree with you, TJ. I think they're just trying to be shocked value, you know. But I think it's pretty weird. It is corny. It is pretty corny. It's corny, but near history. But talking about that, like I mean, it's a hard that's a hard one to do it. I do think we should be. If you did make a malt rushmore, I think you gotta do men and women, just like you have a men and women hall of fame in other sports. I think that would be the right thing to do.

herb 9:45

I think you can do a men and a and women. Can somebody close that back door so it stops opening and closing and beeping and making my podcast beepy? The chaos and disaster. Chaos and disaster, man. Okay. So I think you do have what I my point is that there are certain sports that you can't compare men and women at. Cycling. No matter cycling, you can't, swimming can't, running can't. It's just it's genetic. You can't do it. There's not not yet. Now, I by with that said, I wouldn't want to fight Ronda Rousey either. You know, but she's dude, she's tough. Nah, come on, stop it. No, no, no, no. She's a cajudo player. She's a hoodlum. She's a hoodlum. She'll hood you, man. She's not from here, she's from Oklahoma. She's from Oklahoma. So, all right. So I'm going back to the I'm going back to the Mount Olympus of Taekwondo, which I'm not on, by the way. I'm gonna start with Jung Cook Young. And that's that's my he gets a place. He gets a place. He's gotta get a place. How do you how do you not give him a place?

SPEAKER_04 10:53

I think you gotta break it down for everyone, because I know we say that you say that name a lot, but I think you gotta like run the record.

herb 10:59

Explain. So how do you how do you the guy didn't lose an international match? Um, I don't want to mention any other names, CJ. That guy did not lose an international match in 10 years, eight years. He won four world championships, won the Olympics, won the Asian games. He won everything he ever entered, never lost, did not lose a match. That's a different standard. When you don't lose a match, that's a different thing. That's Floyd May. That's Floyd Mayweather. He's he's in a different world. Talent-wise, I think you can go with some other players. Like, I mean, um talent-wise, that the list goes on, but unique players is a different conversation. Jungmyung sum, you could take you could say what you want about the guy, but the guy was uh an amazing jumping creative. He made he makes CJ look like a little boy in a candy store.

Juan 11:50

Jung Myung Sum is a and effective, by the way, knock guys out. I was thinking about this a little bit, and I'm like, listen, you could just go with just Korea on a Mount Rush, Mark. Just like I mean to be honest, not anymore, but just Korea back then. Yeah, I'm just saying back then, I mean, you think about Chung uh Chung Kung, you think about even uh was it uh Moon Moon Day Sung Kwang? Moon Day Sung, you can talk about him, you can talk about Jinsen Tai. You know, they got a lot of Korean fighters back in the day that were you know two or three time world champion.

herb 12:25

And wait a minute, how do you not go with the guy um the bantam weight from 88 that won every division? Oh no, Hate Kyung.

Juan 12:35

I wouldn't have to be a good thing. How do you not how do you how do you not how do you not? I said I said he was what again. This is you know what the problem is, there's a bunch of and and TJ, I don't know, maybe chime in with the what do you think? There's a bunch of uneducated, historically, you know, deprived people in this day and age. They can't look past four years or five years, you know. I'm saying like they have no idea, you know, even the people like Brigitte, people like Ramos, people like Gladys, people like Pascal, you like these things. Good one. Good one. Carlos Nigrella, I mean, there's just a bunch of really fighters, French fighters.

herb 13:14

How do you how do you ignore Victor Estrada? How do you ignore Victor Estrada?

Juan 13:18

How do you how do you ignore Iran? Well, I'm gonna say, yeah, but Fargus.

herb 13:22

How about Fargus? How do you ignore him?

Juan 13:25

Yeah. Anyway, there's just a lot on there, and I know it's the modern day, you know, thing that they put, but I thought it was a little disrespectful to some of the people of the past.

herb 13:37

Well, we don't exist anymore, so that's a good news. You know, they they have a 15 second.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

Win, lose, or draw. We're dropping a reel like next day. Sometimes on the plane, it's it's up quick. You know? Um, we I mean, we're definitely, I mean, you said a lot of good names, a lot of big, big names, but we're just in this like I don't know if it's promotion of the sport or it's it's the watering down of the sport. But I mean, we celebrate and point out things that like I mean,

When Losing Gets Celebrated

SPEAKER_04 14:10

when you talk about the relevancy of some of it, it's just like, why are we even talking about some of it?

herb 14:13

Well, I went in, I went into I like I'll see these things that pop up in my feed, and I'm I gotta be honest, I'm slightly embarrassed um for the people that write them and the people that are subject to them, right? So they're they're written about a particular individual, and this individual hasn't won and and wins and loses and and smiles and dances and TikToks. And then I read the comments and I'm like, really? So dude, I don't it's like they go, Oh, I just wish, should I do it like he does? I'm like, Yeah, please, please do it like he does if you fight me. Because I always like the guy that aspires to be second place or third place or have or wear a fur collar. And I think it's just a mentality that's unfortunate because it's dumbing down the sport is dumbed down, but it's dumbing down even the expectations of what happens when you get in the ring. There was a time, and there should be a time, where competition is ugly. If you don't win, you don't matter. That's just reality. And by the way, that's professional sports anywhere. If you don't win, you don't matter. If you can't win, it's black Monday or Tuesday, whatever they call it, and they fire you because you didn't win. Now, it may have nothing to do with you. Another team practice hard, it was hard. You don't win, you don't get paid. And apparently everybody's forgotten that mentality. And that's why a country of 330 million people can't win. Can't win. It can't win because it doesn't have a winner's mentality. We have a mentality that makes it easy for everybody else to beat us because they actually have a winning mentality. So but anyway, enough of that from me.

Remembering Day One Moon

Juan 15:49

Hey, what do you guys think? I I know another legend in Taekwondo passed away day one moon from uh Mexico.

herb 15:59

I liked him so much.

Juan 16:00

Passed away, and it was um it was really strange because he was very healthy and he fell and hit his head. And yeah, is that what happened? Uh yeah. Uh oh he fell. His wife found him at his house and he he passed away, but he was strong. He was, you know, 83. He was doing things the week before, teaching and stuff like that. I mean, he was in good shape. And I mean my grandfather had the same thing. He was pretty healthy, and he fell outside his head and had a bleed and just never recovered, you know. And it's crazy that when you get that age, you know, you just you never see it coming. But I mean, again, talking about generational people, there's a lot of people, you know, for sure in this country that have no idea who he is. And there's a lot of people probably and maybe in some of this new generation of the Mexicans that don't know who he is, but he's literally, he's literally the founder, the father of Taekwondo in Mexico. Like, literally brought Mudaquan over there and formed the Federation, was the president of the Federation, coach. He's Mexican. He's been in Mexico so long, he's Mexican. The dude has his own tequila ranch. Like, he is he's he's um he's an unbelievable man.

herb 17:16

He fought, he fought too, you realize, right? Like he was a really good fighter. He was he was a Mutaquan guy, so I knew him because my instructor was Mutaquan. So we I ran into him a lot throughout the years, and and I was on the technical committee with him when we changed the rules. But he and I went to Mexico to teach a seminar for the U.S. Olympic Committee and for the Pan Am region about taekwondo. They I was one of the guys, and we went out together for an amazing lunch. And so um he fought Chuck Norris. He used to come in and fight point tournaments here. He was one of those guys. So when he got he got off the boat, he started fighting. So you what I thought was interesting was the outpouring of everyone. Yes, people just talking about him and and knowing of him, and uh, like you said, in Mexico, he was the Juan Moreno of Taekwondo.

Juan 18:07

Yeah, right. Not even close. He listen, he you know, he he brought Oh, I meant to I meant the Gareth Brown.

herb 18:13

I'm sorry, the Gareth Brown, sorry. Or the Clinton, the Clinton O.

Juan 18:16

He brought Tekwondo to to Mexico, and you know, he he he had Mudaquan strong for obviously even now it's still strong, but there, you know, there's the Mech Mudaquan broke up and at a certain time, like his one of his prize students, someone that he brought he found like in the streets and brought him up and broke away from him, and it kind of divided Mexico, like other Mudaquan, I think, after '88, sometime after '88. But even those people that kind of went to the other side, like you said, young, I'm just on Facebook and I'm just seeing all these people pour out their stories, their pictures, their respect for him. And I don't know. I don't we for sure, 1000%. We don't have anybody like that in America. We don't have anybody like that. You could say June Ree in those days, but June Ree didn't bring Taekwondo to America as a WT type person, you know what I'm saying? As an Olympic kind of person. I know he was one of the originals, but like nobody sits back and goes, Thank you, June Ree, for all you did for the U.S. Olympic Committee movement. You know what I'm saying? So, and that's not to diminish him because obviously he's a pioneer in the things the way he looked at martial arts, but he didn't look at it as a sport, you know, at all. Not not like we do in any other sense. But yeah, it's a sad, it's sad, you know, when we're we're getting to the age where we're seeing some of the people that led us and and just kind of were there at the beginning, they're just kind of uh passing on. So yeah, all due respect to him and his family.

herb 19:43

So maybe be remembered as he lived, you know. So he uh he was quite quite an amazing man and always generous with his time, very opinionated, very strong in his will. Yeah, we had a lot of conversations about taekwondo, but you know, it's it's hard. He did the dance, and so if you do the dance at a high level, you gotta listen. You can't you can't just you can't ignore the guy because you gotta listen. He did it at a high level, so you can you can feel differently about what he says, but you gotta at least give him the courtesy of hearing his opinion on it. We did we had a couple of go-arounds on the point system. He didn't want to change the point system to the multi-tiered system. He thought it was too much. So um, I have a funny story about it, but I won't I won't share that one now. That I'm gonna save that one.

Why Modern Taekwondo Looks Wrong

herb 20:30

TJ, what do you got for?

SPEAKER_04 20:31

It's crazy. It's crazy. I was um before we got on, I was watching a little bit of the European Championships, and like for some reason I was thinking about you a little bit, Grandmaster, and just I'm going like, man, nah, and like if I stopped watching Tekwondo, let's say 15 years ago, and I turned it on and watched some of the matches, and these were high-level matches according to what we do, but like the the difference in what it looked like and what it is now is probably the most extreme thing when I look at it from like the bigger picture going. If we because we never stopped, I never stopped watching it, right? I never stopped training it, I never stopped um competing and teaching it. But like if you could have just stepped away from the last 15 years and then you come and look at it now. I kind of somewhere in my brain, I'm going, I see why these people go crazy online sometimes and they're like, this isn't Taekwondo. Because it it's not, I know, I know, I know. That's why you popped into my head first when I was watching these matches. But I'm just and I'm going, man, if I stopped and I wasn't involved, I didn't see the little changes and the scoring changes and the height changes, all these things, like I would kind of be able to go, like, man, this is this is not Taekwondo anymore.

Juan 21:33

Listen, I might I you know my wife is like, you know, she's younger than me, but she has a lot of friends that she grew up with in the 90s and early 2000s. That's exactly to your point, TJ. They get on, you know, they watch Taekwondo or they're Taekwondo fans, and they're like, What's going on? And they can't, they they they they have no idea what's going on in the sport, and then it kind of goes over into politics and what's going on, you know, with their within their country. And it's funny just see people that are out of it come back into it. It's it's it's Fenn, you know, doing podcasts right now. I mean he was he's bringing in, you know, people that he grew up with that haven't been around for the sport for a long time. But the people can't, you know, to to Grandmaster's point, they just can't even stomach it. They can't even understand it. It doesn't make any sense to them. So I really get it from that standpoint. But like you said, we've been in the cycles. We've seen the change. We've seen the the the ups and downs of it, you know, and so I guess we just accept it if that's the word.

SPEAKER_04 22:34

You know, I know that's not the best way to kind of blend it into it a little bit because obviously we we work with it, thrive in it, you know, coach it and like I I I understand it in my brain somewhere and I can see it's the the style difference and it's just this generation of like it has to be like this and you can find some place to put your good shots but the structure is very much the same across the board but like it is it's it's just funny when I like when I remove myself I'm going that's why these people go crazy sometimes I was watching one of the European boys like hold his leg up and like hop wiggle wiggle front side flop put their leg down stand stiff and I'm like if I hadn't watched it in 10 years I'd be like what the hell did I just see happen you know what I mean like you would you would probably be the most confused person in the world.

Juan 23:19

And it's even worse when you look at the scoreboard and say what what what scored? Like what what was that? I mean I saw some I mean young the the to TJ's point I tell you what was crazy though was there was some wild endings like guys are they're losing and then they score a point and then they score another point and the guy falls down so they go from losing to one to winning by four with two seconds left and the guy steps in back whip kicks him in the face and hits for five points you're like what are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 23:49

I mean just just madness madness on both sides like how do you give up five points or four points in two seconds and then how do you get hit with a spin kick with like one second like you can dive out of bounds you could you could do anything you want and he stands there the guy goes drills him in the face that's a 74 or 63 match I was just I think I watched that one earlier 74 yeah I forgot which one it was and then love hate I'm gonna stay in love hate with the whole six point to the face spinning and all that stuff because if you're getting worked for a whole round and I mean we're watching it like this and Nipson's stuff like it's still getting six four I know I don't like it.

Juan 24:28

I can't make it make sense like I say there's no extra you know long shot in the last five seconds of of basketball there's no extra long shot in soccer to kick it from half court and say you get or half the field you get you know three points or same thing in football or baseball or it's just it it's nonsense.

herb 24:47

I don't know what you don't remember rockin' jocks you don't remember MTV rockin' jocks I remember for some reason I remember the day rockin rock and jocks was when they had the jocks actual basketball players and then they had musicians on the basketball court and they had a regular basket they had one above it that was five or ten points they had one that was higher than they had one that was 25 points like yeah like almost on the ceiling so that's the rockin jock this rock and jock model.

Europe Vs Pan Am Competition Depth

Juan 25:19

Truth be told like uh yeah it's not on TV anymore so there you go there you go there you go how about the level what'd you think about the level of the Europeans I mean so far. Well you know let's talk about them compared to Pan Am so what I I mean I'll I'll be the first to admit you know the Pan Am's had way too many wild cards in there and the way too many wild cards people really didn't deserve to be there. It's like the people that were going to the Grand Prix challenges for whatever reason they got in in the first five from the country and go there and get smacked up by 12 points every every round like they just didn't deserve to be there. They didn't earn to there to to be there and and that well those wild cards were there's a lot of ones that that probably didn't there were some a few like I mean I could tell you we had uh one of our one of our guys that got one through the President's cup which I think is a legit tournament he won the 58th division you know it was you know we had Brazil Brazil final he won it so wild card went there and won it but I don't think there was many of them at all. So anyway to the level I think that the the Europeans fight a certain style obviously just like we fight a certain style um you think you think the you think the Pan region fights a certain style yeah yeah I think we have a little bit more of a rougher style I think we have more of a choppy style I don't see us just standing there like those guys will be patient and front leg cancel cancel cancel flop and they'll open up and do some of the same stuff but we get at it you know we have more scuffles and exchanges and stuff like that you know and you know it's uh I think styles make fights I mean sometimes some of our guys can go and do that to them and then sometimes they those guys can go ahead and smack us up but I think overall if their level is like this ours is like this you know I'm saying we have a few people at the top that could fight with them they've got uh they're just deeper than us you know and I just that's you know they're they have so many countries are close so yeah I I go back and forth I mean like I said maybe I can understand the wild card for the president's cup like you said like the gold medal at the president's cup I get it I understand but I I missed the days where it was just single person per division for the Pan Championships and I think they did that because we didn't have enough people per division is that why we wanted we were trying to make the divisions bigger by doing wild cards or I think over the point of the wild cards. I like the wild cards initially I think they there was a lot of people a lot of countries that were having problems um within their national team and people they gave people the opportunity to kind of circumvent that at one tournament of the year and that was the president's cup you know but then they went to the under 21 and this one and that one you know it was it was hard to get a medal at the president's cup and I think at one point it was just only first and second you know at one point I think it was you had to win it then it was first and second then it was any medals on the finisher per country right yeah so I think it was well intended it got a little out of control in this one and again Europe didn't have that you didn't see three or four people in the same division so I think it was more a true uh championship true national team you know level championship and um they look the venue look good cool from the TV from what I can see from the T television the venue looked good the venue it looked like a grand prix they had the finals at night you know they introduced them I mean everything was nice I mean they fought and I but I heard some things back and forth some people were saying one to one ring the the the the the PSS was good the next ring it wasn't this some guy had hogus that didn't work I mean there's a bunch of discrepancies you know um that I think went on but overall it looked like a higher level I mean but that's just from looking from the outside we'll see we'll see at this grand prix this grand prix gonna be tough the first grand prix two and a half yeah yeah it's coming quick I'm curious to see like who's gonna show up and and one thing I noticed there's like a bunch of like I I gotta look at the exact names but I was looking at the draws today and um I saw a bunch of Thailand guys and they have to be from the juniors or I don't know where these guys got points like lighter guys I got I gotta check them out again to see where they're ranked for the Grand Prix yeah okay okay yeah yeah I think it's gonna be I mean what do you mean by who's gonna show up well because President's Cup is in Europe is the same time so there might be some people that just say you know what I'm gonna go to Presidents Cup for our G3 versus go to this I I that's a tough decision.

SPEAKER_04 30:06

I mean it's not it's not really a tough decision. I I I it's a tough decision. It's a tough decision. It's a tough decision.

herb 30:14

You just said it's not really a tough decision. I know because I'm going to say the same thing you said my name is Bill Willie Walden. No I'm Willie.

SPEAKER_04 30:24

I'm Wanda regionals. You know I would go to our regional championships in my you know in my brain you know and then I'm going oh do I want my guys there to to fight the Grand Prix with all the other people I've always thought about that.

Juan 30:36

That's a place I've wanted to visit your brain I I would like to be in your brain one day just to visit I don't want to live there but I you wouldn't make it out no I've that's what I'm afraid of yeah yeah I don't I don't know the uh but uh are you are you married are you married yes you are married how come I didn't know this did you know that keeping a secret for me yeah you're you're married who are you talking about TJ talking about me he's not married I didn't think he's married because he wouldn't get away with that room that room wouldn't exist anymore his man cave would be gone bargain nobody sees it anymore this is my bargain we moved to North Carolina or my podcast life and my videos the purple life the purple life that was you got to mean a purple life build one of those things TJ that you open up and you go inside you got like a little speakeasy and stuff that'd be tight dude I went to basement do you guys have basements in North Carolina I think play some places I don't know actually where do you think they keep their cousins of course they got basements I don't have a basement my I'm a I'm a ranch style home no I'm just one level wait till you when you get a cousin you'll have them in the basement that's where you keep them locked up you and Rick James I miss basements though I bet you do I bet you do Diddy where you keep your baby oil I bet you do I just like I like homes that are built with music Mike Tyson that is like a myth basement thing but I haven't had basements since I since I lived here I've been said I've been what I moved here in 97 26 or almost 30 years so I'm not there there are there are basements in in Florida they just call them sinkholes so now you gotta pay a lot of money to have a basement here.

herb 32:32

Because they can't

Sinkholes Fracking And Home Repairs

herb 32:33

I mean like in Florida you could have something and the next day you show up and it's gone.

Juan 32:37

That's like in the middle of the of the country or middle of the state they got sinkholes up there. Yeah yeah you're okay over there somebody why'd you look at what you you made a quick turn you made a well you know what because you know I so I have a my now my whole backyard is like all pool deck area you know I have like pavers and stuff like that but before I had a like a uh my half my backyard was the pool the other half was just grass and the grass was fine then all of a sudden it started getting like a little dead patch in the middle and it spread spread spread spread I was like man that's crazy this is over a period of time so I took it all out and because then when I was doing some reconstruction in my house they were taking a lot of like stuff and putting it out there in the yard so I thought you know what maybe something killed it. So anyway I I scraped it all up and I had resod same thing everything was beautiful everything's fine and sure enough like eight months later that middle part started like just dying and I noticed it went it went down a little bit there's like a little dip and I'm like dude what if there's a sinkhole I'm gonna come on side one day now you're gonna step into your leg don't it's time takes time man sinkhole just don't happen but you know North Carol you're in North Carolina they have you guys they have fracking out there right do they do fracking out there you know what fracking is for I know fracking is but they do have it there I don't think do you have coal mines there?

SPEAKER_04 34:02

This North Carolina you got coal mines I'm not sure I've only been I've been in for a little bit over almost a year and a half but I'm wrong.

herb 34:08

Next time you go to baskin robins just ask them if they got if they got fracking coal mines just ask my parents they'll know they'll know you you can usually tell but um if you have fracking that's what the problem is that fracking I learned this because it's helped my son with his homework it causes earthquakes and all sorts of ground erosion so you know they they they shoot water into the ground and to get the oil loose um and then they have to put the water back in to stabilize the ground you know here in foster city we're on an island and they have um landfill and then I have a lot of water that goes under my house I actually have uh maybe an underground stream or something and there's two different schools of thoughts you just leave the water you don't pump it out and then it it disequalizes right if you pump it out um then you're disturbing the ground the settle yeah so I don't know so it's been been a minute but the um I wanted to kind of transition into I've been getting this kind of socially responsible kind of thing and I think that we've talked about this just ad infinitum but there does come a point in time where I think we have to talk about solutions rather than just problems.

Challenging USA Taekwondo Governance

herb 35:15

And so whether you guys do or don't it's a you know you don't have to right so you can't bring somebody on your journey but I think there does come a point in time there's a window of opportunity for people that want to fix taekwondo in the United States. So under the Olympic charter there's a window to challenge the NGB and I I'm gonna think about this for the next little bit and um this is a mechanism that many people have used in the past to fix bad NGBs. But it may be time over the next few months to a year to create a groundswell um there are people that feel for by the that soccer because it's having the World Cup here in the States is going to explode soccer. I don't I don't believe that to be true. But with the Olympics in LA there's gonna be a there's gonna be a tension on sport in general and especially sports that are in trouble. And you have a six month window before the Olympics and a six month window after to challenge the NGB and I I gotta be honest I think it may be time to put together a group of people and start a go fund me and some raise some money and get there are attorneys that do this the right way and challenge the NGB and it's and it's fitness to administer the sport. So I'm gonna give that some thought and uh is it is it is it every so every Olympic games six months before and six months after there's a window there's a window unless they've removed it yeah any sport you can challenge the viability of a sport to be the representative governing body and it's specific it's a different level when you do it outside of that window there's different requirements or at least there used to be for the level that you had to reach to to get them to be challengeable. But you can do it virtually during that window and it's an easier process so I'm gonna think about it a little bit and talk to people I know and the attorneys I know that handle this kind of stuff to see what the bar is and then I'm gonna try to get a feeling from everybody that listens to us and see what they think about it.

Juan 37:27

Let me ask you another question do you think I mean maybe this is you know not maybe but this is for you TJ do you think that the administration will have a turnover after the 2028 so for example I know in Brazil like we have an election coming up and so there's going to be a new president so there'll be just by natural you know process there's gonna be you know a new person every four to eight years where over here the CEO is not elected he's appointed and so by the board. So he really doesn't have any term limits per se and neither do the coaches or anybody else like that.

herb 38:07

I mean there was no you know if you even when you go back to the original hiring of people there was no um notification or announcement that there was looking for a hiring now there was for this last coach but out of all the coaches that's the only one I think the two um uh guys the two foreigners and the you know the the former Olympian that is there um now the that person of development like I don't think there's been ever been an announcement a public announcement that if they're looking for someone they just created those jobs except for those last uh the guy that's coming over from Asia so interesting enough um they don't have any term limits they don't have any uh I mean I I can't say they don't have oversight because I guess that technically they do have oversight right for the coaches from the CEO CEO from the board but we we all know how that works and how it has worked most other NGBs aren't set up like that or do you know the NGBs are all the NGBs have a board all the NGBs so it's set up like a corporation a board of directors looks over policy CEOs handle the business and the board of director has one employee that they can two usually two they can hire and fire one is the um CEO and the other is the attorney and then the the CEO can hire and fire everybody else but if the CEO doesn't perform then you remove him so when I was on the board of directors these guys don't have any what we call their military benchmarks like you know what I mean no one's going like they're not having a they're supposed to the board isn't doing its job so you have a board that's malfeasant you have a board that's ignorant and you have a board that's self-interested in just getting a plane ticket somewhere and and it's weird now because I think the board members get even less than they used to.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

Thanks because they respect the media but back to like the media and stuff I mean you don't see like we it's all it's all written up and probably delivered when they go talk to these guys about you know we've done this or we're doing this or we won this tournament we got second here third here it's who's selling the story so as long as they're selling the story I mean they're gonna be able to keep doing this with no one's actually paying attention to what the results actually look like what the community feels like what's actually happening live no one's paying attention well you don't know what you don't know right the the board doesn't know what they don't know I mean they're a bunch of independence and so when the CEO comes to them and says we did this this they go okay pretty good but according to like Don Lewis and them half of these guys almost 80 90% of these guys don't even show up for them they just try they're to be to be clear they're using the NGB as a potential way to get into the USOC board seat which is never going to happen.

herb 40:47

So when we were vetting and I was on the original vetting committee of independent directors for USOC and what we found was all these guys had no interest in taekwondo being on the board they were using it as like a stepping stone to try to get to the USOC board. The problem is that when you have a board member the board member is supposed to be the check and the balance he's supposed to be developing an action plan with the the I the CEO develops an action plan or a business plan. The board members then hold that hold him accountable for it and if he doesn't deliver they either don't bonus him or they remove him they give him a probation period and they remove him. So when I was on the USOC board of directors we removed three board directors I removed a couple from taekwondo and um and that's because they didn't do their jobs. A board and and on the board of directors which is a city council I hired three and the one that didn't do his job I went to his office and told him you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And if you don't start doing what you're gonna be doing then you can give us the day you're gonna leave or we're gonna give you the day and so we removed we removed him and so if you don't hold your CEO accountable CEOs love boards that are asleep because then they do whatever they they do it's in the best interest of themselves and the bo and the the staff and that's always the balance and that's one of the problems currently quite honestly even with the USOC board I I mean I challenge you guys even to make it about to be a board election up too soon.

Juan 42:24

Well first of all they have staggering boards so it's only positions you know I'm saying they it's not like a full turnover so it's like if us three are on the on the board like you're you go this year his is next year and mine is the year after that so that way there's never a full turnover there's always some kind of they do that for a reason they do it for continuity and they say knowledge it makes sense if it's going right but they're if it's going right that's correct. To be honest well who's on your board now who are your board members now I have no idea but I I know Mr. Lewis posted something the other day what TJ was referencing and supposedly they haven't put out their minutes which they're supposed to do you know according to their own bylaws. I think it was from January through March and here we are in April I'm sorry May it's they're two two months you know late that we haven't seen the meetings now I don't know if they had a meeting or they just didn't publish it. I don't know anything about that to be honest with you because I don't really care. But they have to publish them or they're out of compliance. But that's my point they haven't so they are out of compliance.

herb 43:25

Whether they had the meeting or not they should yeah you know they should they should be public knowledge you know so let them dig their let them dig their own hole but that goes back to my point is if you care enough right and you know I get tired of trying to fix America's problems with regard to my sport but you know because I've we've got a lot of people out there that are unhappy and we talked about this last week they don't say anything but they cheer lead right so like you go on these posts about the last performance of their their wonder boy who didn't perform you know oh good job I wish I could spin like you one day And which one do you like better? The millennial one or the Gen X one? And I looked at that, I was like, what? I didn't even know there was a difference between those two. I don't like either of them. They don't win. Give me, give me the winning one. I'll take the one that wins. If that's the boomer, send me the boomer. Right? So, like, yeah, I I wax poetic, but I do think it comes a top point in time where, you know, we've talked about this before. What's happened is the true performers are out of the room. They don't have a single person in the room, in the room, that was a true performer. None. So the second and third and fourth rate guys, and I realized this about one of my own personal friends. I realized one of my friends didn't have any of his ex-friends in the room anymore. And that was because all his ex-friends were more successful. So at that point, when those guys enter the room, he's no longer the guy. It's nice to be the big fish in the small pond until the big fish comes in or the shark comes in. And so that's USA Taekwondo right now. They got a bunch of minnows, and then they got under, I don't even know what's under, a tadpole. The tadpole is running the coaching program, and then they got more tadpoles under that. So they love to carry bags because at least they're in the room. Before then, they couldn't even get we didn't even know their names. I mean, I gotta be honest, half the people that I'm reading about now, and I see people putting up on podcasts, like the name goes up and I go like this. Who? Like, you know, I have a general rule which you guys have heard before, but you know, I'm gonna get a lot of emails after this. But and it goes really simple. If you you talk to somebody and they don't know my name, if I don't know them, you tell me their name and I don't know their name, they're probably nobody in the sport. If they don't know my name, they're probably definitely nobody in the sport. And I would say that about either one of you. And so if you don't know your history, you don't know the sport. But you know, there'll be people come, do you know this guy? I'd be like, I never heard of this guy. If he doesn't know me, then he's definitely nobody. And I know that's kind of arrogant and terrible to say, but it's not untrue. If you don't, if you don't know who Jung Cook Young is, you don't know this sport. You don't, you, you, you didn't do the sport at a high level, you know, and I could throw out a bunch of other names that would be the same, right? So anyway, it's it's a that was Pascal, Pascal. You don't know Pascal?

Juan 46:24

You don't know this. You don't know this at some point. People forget about Hobby. Remember when Habi was killing everybody from France, TJ? I mean, the woman was like she was a beast. What about Hadi? What about Hadi? Well, Hadi and Barbie are still around. Hadi and Barbie from from uh Turkey, they're both presidents of their of their country right now. Yeah, but you think people know for their record? No. I mean, I don't have a record like those guys, I'm not trying to say it, but like people know me more as a coach now. I mean, some people know me as an athlete, you know, they'll say stuff all the time.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

This is just the wrong air. This is just the era of promotion. I mean, like, if there were video cameras rolling when you guys were fighting or when we were, I mean, we like you'd be it'd be you'd be sensations, you'd be rock stars. You would just it would be a whole different thing.

herb 47:09

You mean I could get a f I could get I could get a feather bow or two and color my hair and put on sunglasses and act like um Lenny Kravitz, I could be Lenny Kravitz.

SPEAKER_04 47:21

I remember crawling or uh sitting in front of a television watching BHS types of fights from the world championships. Now these we have these kids have access to it immediately, you know, while the event's going on. I think that's a that's a game changer in itself. And like that's all this is. I mean, if if you guys were if they were filming and YouTube and TikToking and all that stuff, it would be it'd be insane.

Teaching Basics In The Electronic Era

herb 47:41

Well, I'm gonna challenge you guys for next week. Here's here's the challenge. The challenge is, and and Dr. Capner and I talked about this last week because he's been listening to you and he wanted to say hi. He said, Do you wonder? He says, I wonder, have they changed because I'm hearing you guys talk and I'm hearing little cracks in the veneer. So he wanted to know, and I he's gonna hear some more tonight. So he wanted to know if your opinions have changed somewhat. So I'm gonna challenge you of Taekwondo in general. Because like you said something that I thought I had my hand up your button, I was puppeting you. I thought I was marionetting you, man. I'll wait for you to start. I'll wait for you to start like maybe put on my shirt and get some guitars in the back and get rid of it.

Juan 48:24

But I I think you and Steve are are are like honestly like misreading us because listen, I I think TJ, and if I could speak for you, TJ, we're we both love the old school taekwondo. We both respect it. We do and I appreciate the stepping and the setting up, and A mix a B mix a C. I hate all this junk. I hate throwing all this shit to the wall and seeing what sticks. I hate what I have to, but but at the same time, I I'm not naive to say that the athletes of the past are just as good as the athletes of the future because it's not the same in baseball, basketball, football. These kids are bigger, stronger, more athletic, even though they do weird things. If you watch the good ones, and I'm not talking all of them, you watch the good ones, they're every bit as good as people from our era. They can do things, it's just that the system is just bad, and they just do what they need to do to win.

herb 49:17

Because but I don't think any of us are saying we're on the same page. None of us are saying the athletes aren't good. So I I'm sad for the athletes because you know, as an athlete, you do what's necessary. Like I I won, I did what was necessary to win. You what we did in practice, what we did in the ring were two different things. At the end of the day, you got to work the system, figure out the system. So I don't think that's the case. I think what was interesting, though, is you guys have and and I and with all respect, you gotta you're the same thing as I would say. If they're serving pizza, you better be buying pizza, right? So you go to this tournament, you can want all the old school taekwondo you want. I saw what happened to Aaron Cook, you know, that it didn't work out so well. So I I don't think we're saying that. And I and I think it's just that it's interesting to hear uh TJ say the things he said tonight, which was like, and he he said something really important, right? Not for the first time, but he said, and I've never put it this way. If you didn't know what a taekwondo uniform was, right? Let's just assume you don't know what a V-neck is and all that, and you just you didn't know anything, and you put a kid in a room that had never seen taekwondo before, and you put in like match this thing with the other, and you put old school taekwondo, new school taekwondo, point karate, whatever, name your thing. I don't think he could draw a line to taekwondo. I don't think I think you'd you'd look at it and go, I don't have a match for that one. You couldn't look at what used to be taekwondo, other than matching the uniform and say it's the same thing. You you'd get a better match. I watched the point karate, I watched the point karate, must have been the US Cup or something, and a guy lifts up his leg and does the hop thing across the floor, right? To score. And with the exception of the punching, if you just saw those kicking techniques, you'd you'd better it'd be a connection. Take it wrong.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

I guess yeah, no, I this crazy because for sure, like I think we're talking about a long time ago, but we've been to the realm where these kids are fighting their first tournaments on electronics. I just had some of my newer green belts go to like some state tournament and like they're making them do electronics. I mean, there's these that's all they're that's all they know. Where we're that I mean, that's what the coaches are teaching from this level. Like, that's my biggest issue, is what's being taught to at the bottom. They're teaching them how to stand with their leg up and flick and turn and flop. There's no there's no real technical development. And I think I was I was in a good era where I kind of we did everything sliding, stepping, switching. And I think those are the people that can kind of change and keep going. But we're teaching these kids how to try to quote unquote win from out the gate, how to just touch the chess guard or something. Can I ask can I ask you a question?

herb 52:00

Can I ask you a question? Because I'm I'm a little naive on this one. So I noticed I've got this kid who's pretty good and coach from Reynolds worked with him before. And now I'm, you know, when I teach kicking, I always teach uh retraction, extension, half retraction, foot to the floor. What I'm seeing now more of, and it might be because of the nature of electronics, is gluing your foot for some period of time before your foot comes down. So the retraction part has gone away somewhat because I think you're trying to, is it that you're trying to get contact to the chest protector to get the point?

SPEAKER_04 52:33

I always try to tell my guys to bring their foot back so we can keep using it, but I think it is that kind of occup, like occupying the space thing. People are literally putting their leg out there so they're like stuck in the middle long enough that they don't get hit back. That's what it looks like.

herb 52:45

Is it that or is it or is it the sensor?

SPEAKER_04 52:48

It could be it could be both, but once you hit it, you can bring your foot back and hit it again. I I think they're just I mean, I watch people cut, kick, and cancel.

herb 52:55

But does it require does it require does it require this, or does it require or or can you do this?

SPEAKER_04 53:03

Who knows?

Juan 53:05

I mean, I I would say if I had to bet it's this, yeah. It's not that's what I think too. It's not it's not a pop.

SPEAKER_04 53:11

Yeah, so no, you gotta, yeah, you gotta hit it to a certain level. Yeah, I gotta leave your foot on it.

Juan 53:17

Listen, there's times like we okay, I say if you're in certain range and you and you you you kick all the way through, you're like, boom, and I want you like you got them, you go through, you know. But there's more times than not that like I agree with TJ. I'm like, I want them to snap and I want them to be able to put the foot down straight. I want them to be able to, I always tell them, like, when they when you finish your kick, it's like a throwing a punch, when you finish your kick, you're done. You're done, then you get hit and you have to start all over. When you snap your kick, you you can continue going with the same leg or you can put it down and kick again. Yeah, you're you're in a position to do that. So I think like again, going with TJ saying, I think if you're teaching regular real taekwondo, you're teaching them these type of things, and there'll be a time where you say, you know what, let your foot stick. But the problem is they've learned it like this. They can't snap. When I do seminars, when I do seminars and I warm up, let's just say I do some, I read the room. Okay, we're gonna stretch kick, front kick, rounds kick, side kick, back kick. They're horrible. They kick horribly, and then I go double up on they all go and I go uh up all flop, they're like and they're like rolling their hip. And I'm just kind of going, these guys can't even do regular taekwondo, but they can sure do this flip-flop wickety walk stuff that you say. They really can. They can hop down the floor and do that, they can wrap their foot in circles. It's it's it's odd for me. They they can they can step up up up, but they they don't even understand the concept of of a fast kick, of a short motion, like kind of they just they they don't know how to push off both feet. They're like one, two. It's a strange.

herb 54:54

Yeah, and I think that I think that's the thing that like, and maybe you guys know this better because you see it a lot. Um the lack of connectivity is always interesting to me, but also what I'll call directional change. In other words, if you were going to be a high-level fighter during our day, you had to be able to do this and this at least. And if you couldn't do this and this, you had to be able to, and if you could, you would do this and this. Your motion, your dimension was four-dimensional. You had direct motion, direct side motion, and then you had in and out. You had to be able to tease that in and out, which I don't see at all these days. All I see is when somebody goes forward, they go forward.

Juan 55:36

It's very static and it's very, it's very in place, it's very forward. There's very very little like angles in going under. If the angles is just like angles with your body or angles with your kick, not angles with your step, not too often. So um, yeah, I would definitely agree with that. That's uh that's a problem. Let me ask you this is there any other sport that you could think of, you could say, like, this technique just doesn't work anymore. This style of training, I'm talking basketball, boxing, football, volleyball, there's something that you say, this just doesn't work.

herb 56:16

They've all evolved, and that's my that's been my point from day one. And this is a good one for TJ, right? So if you were to take a picture of basketball from 1992, 1988, and you Olympics, and you take that same basketball game in 2016 or 2020, 24, you would see an evolution of the sport, you would see an upward evolution. You can't say that in time. That's not okay. I'm in boxing, boxing.

unknown 56:49

Okay.

herb 56:50

Has there been evolution in boxing? They're used to box like this, coach.

Juan 56:55

Yeah, yeah. I'm talking for 88 to 92. If you put 88 and look at right now, good boxer with good boxers.

herb 57:04

What about basketball?

Juan 57:05

No, I was gonna say basketball, there could be an argument for a de-evolution. Now, I'm gonna give you for evolution. These guys can shoot three pointers like guys, like there's no business.

herb 57:15

Like it doesn't matter, yeah.

Juan 57:16

Like the big guys can handle the ball, but do you see the way they travel? Do you see the way they they pick up their pivot foot? Like it's so sloppy. They get away with like three or four steps. Like, you know, these guys in the in the 80s and 90s, they go like one-two, and they're like they they call for a trial. These guys catch the ball, they walk two steps, they they pivot around, they pump fake, they step one-two, and they I mean, they literally change their feet. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it's pretty crazy. So there's a there, I I get what you're saying.

herb 57:46

And in if I had to say yes, track and field, track and field, they run faster, they jump higher. Gymnastics figure skating.

Juan 57:54

Well, but uh you heard that Ted's talk. I forgot that one Ted talked about our athletes actually better, and they they they compare Jesse Owens to Usain Bolt in the 100 meters, and they give this like little like that's Jesse Owens, and that's Usain Bolt. And by that time, it was like like a one-second, you know, advantage for Usain Bolt. And they say, of course, in in sprinting, that's like a mile. Yeah, and they yes, but let's look at some other factors. They said the weight of Jesse Owens' shoes was you know a pound heavier. He ran on Cinder block, Cinders, you know, where he runs on a synthetic track that actually propels you forward. Yeah, he Jesse Owens had a uh had digs a hole for his starting block, and these guys got these state-of-the-art based on your size and your strength, your leg length to push out. They had a a stopwatch like that. They have a uh you know, uh Omega, you know, watch that just it's it's it's down to the there's no discrepancy. So what when they took all those things in there, they were like they were like right behind each other. Oh you saying boat was like point something, you know, it was it's pretty cool. So they're it oh, then they said that you know Jesse Owens took a boat to the German Olympics eating, you know, like horrible food, whatever. This guy's got the best nutrition, the best massage, the best therapy, like hyperbaric chambers. Yeah, you take all that into play. Like, is he really a better athlete? I mean, on surface, I say yes, the same. Oh, come on, stop. You can't, but when you add those factors in, you could do the same thing with you know, some of the players now and whether other sports, you're like, are they better volleyball players because they jump higher and they smack it harder? Maybe, but they also got a better floor, they got better shoes, you know. I'm saying they have better conditioning, better health. I mean, there's a lot of things. I mean, these guys have different ways to swing their arms now than they did before. So, yeah, same in swimming, same swimming. They got the pools, they have no quake. No way, they'll they used to bounce back, but now they go down, and it's just a lot of things that would that be for taekwondo. What's that?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

Advantage, yeah, like the difference.

herb 1:00:14

Like you're talking about, you know, like the uniforms uniform, chest protectors, you know, you got uniform chest protectors. Like in a fighting sports, it's a little bit different because we don't really have all that much performance enhancing equipment. But um, like a check a chest protector in Taekwondo, to be honest, isn't necessary anymore. You you need a uniform with sensors. You the chest protector doesn't serve any purpose. People don't hit hard enough for it to matter anyway. So you could actually build sensors into a uniform that would be just as effective. Um, why they have it, I don't know. People don't kick hard enough that it matters anymore. Originally, a chest protector protected you from getting hurt because if you didn't have that chest protector, you'd get hurt. Um, but what would be different? I don't think I think this is one of the nuances of this conversation, and that is the rules dictate the athlete. So there's a reason why in basketball you have tall guys playing basketball, in soccer, the rules don't dictate the athlete. The athlete, you have a wider range of bio biobander kind of type of people you can put in it. In boxing, the rules don't dictate the athlete. They, because of the nature of the sport, you know, you can be an outlier. Mike Tyson was small, but he was crazy powerful, right? Um, there was a Korean banter weight, Hamjo, and he was terribly small, but he was crazy crafty, right? Even Jungmyoung Sum, he wasn't tall, but he was crazy athletic.

Juan 1:01:51

So I think in boxing, most of the people, yeah, they can be small. I mean, they're a lot of small people because there's so many different weights. There's so many weights and stuff.

herb 1:01:59

But if you think about you think about taekwondo, with the advent of the electronic, you take the you take the chest protector off and you take the electronics out of the game. Do you end up with these same athletes in the room? No. No. No, no. The athletes now are becoming, I don't want to use the word retarded, it's the best one I can, but that's the correct word. They're the athletic development of this sport is being retarded by the choice of the electronic chest protector. Now you have ballet dancers who are flexible. You don't have athletic, you have athletic guys, but they're not fit and durable.

Juan 1:02:32

Like TJ, like if you said these guys are better athletes overall than what was in the past. Let's say at the end of the day, let's I'm just I'm just I'm just using a division. Let's say in any division, feather light, welter, middle, let's say in any category there was I'll be the I'll give the benefit of the doubt, eight top people in middleweight. Like there was eight people that you had to be worried about. You probably in your era, young, there was probably three, maybe four. Maybe four. You know, so now you have 10, 12. Yeah, like by the time you get to the round of 16, they're like, you got to be careful. And there's there's some dangerous ones in the round of 32 that could come and mess you up, especially from certain countries. But TJ, I mean, there's way better sports conditioning, there's way better nutrition. Way better science. Way, yeah, the science part. Let me just put it there. The science is not even close. And so it allows these guys. I mean, I see I we talked about it, I think me and you personally, when I watch these kids from Brazil, young, they're like, I hey, I how's everybody's weight? Your weight's good. Yeah, so I'm like, five, I'm like, five pounds, five kilos. I'm like, you're your your your five kilos? Like, yes, no problem. I drinking two liters of water, then tomorrow I drink one, and I go down to uh three, and then I sweat, and and sure enough, they they show up with their little scales, and they're eating meat and pasta, and they're just and they're just like nothing, like nothing. I told TJ at this time.

herb 1:04:12

I gotta watch this movie. There was a movie I watched on the plane, and I was bored, so I watched it. It's called The Cut, and it's got John Tutoro in it, and it's about an aging boxer who goes, steps in at the last minute for a fight against a contender, and him trying to cut. First of all, you shouldn't watch it, it'll probably traumatize you, but watch it anyway, right? Because it'll bring back memories, big wall-eating chips. But it's kind of what you're talking about, where this tutoro plays this guy who's that guy who, you know, he's like, You won't like my methods, but you'll make weight. But you know, watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

When you guys were at when when you trained at OTC or like majority of your uh techno career, were you doing strength and conditioning? Like, was it like a big part of your regimen? No, me neither.

Juan 1:04:59

I I always tell people that when they got yeah, I know it's funny, right? But you got your so let me go back. I didn't until I met, you know, my coach from Chicago. He like he was like he had me in the weight room like three times a week, and we did pull-ups and push-ups. Not like we're not doing bench press and stuff. We were doing cleans, but we were just doing a lot of body weight strengthening. He was a very fit person, so he introduced me to that. When I moved to Colorado Springs, I became a little bit more educated talking with even people like we mentioned his name, Clay Barber, even Tim Conley. We wanted to go to the weight room more. And the coaches were like, that's a waste of time. All we did was run, jump, and stares. And so, you know, TJ, I know in your era, I big because of people like me and you, Young, we we introduced to at least to a lot of the American public plant metrics, jumping out boxes, changing directions and stuff. And I know that was like a huge fad from '92 on because people weren't even. The people that I was around weren't doing plyometrics like the way I did plometrics, not even close. And so, but I know for 92 when I started doing seminars and things like that, that was one of my things that people had never even seen before in this country. And so all these people started doing it, and that's your era. When did you start taking one on TJ?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:19

Um, I was 11 years old, so two 1996, 97, 97.

Juan 1:06:27

Yeah, so that so you so the people around you would have already started like learning this stuff, and so you got that kind of stuff firsthand, you know?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:34

Yeah, we did a lot of um we did a yeah, we did a lot of jumping, you know, like the old school stuff, jump, kick your feet this way, kick your feet this way, the split jumping, all that stuff, the jump roping. I mean, we were we did that for like hours on our every week, we at least did it five or six times a week. We were always jumping or landing or bounding or doing something like that. But that's why you were so explosive and fast.

herb 1:06:55

You could, you could have, you could have back in the day, and to be honest, even now, body weight stuff like push-ups, sit-ups, plyometrics, those three core exercises. If you did them, you'd be fine. You could do the other stuff if you wanted to. There's something to be said for I'm all about the Olympic conditioning program. And my son does it in soccer, right? Um, I'm all about that program, but you could just get away with plyometrics because it's sport specific. And then push-ups and sit-ups would give you the durability you needed, body weight drills, and with running and sprinting, you'd be fine. All the other stuff is nice to have, and probably probably probably at the highest, highest level. When you're fighting the one percent against the one percent, it's gonna make a difference. But cardiovascular conditioning, plyometrics, stuff that you're gonna do.

Juan 1:07:50

But I think that I think that nowadays the a lot of I mean a lot of stuff that we use is for injury prevention because yeah, durability, durability, yeah, durability to protect you know these thinner people, they need a little bit more structure and stuff like that.

herb 1:08:04

Plus, when you're fighting 12 months out of the year, you're fighting 12 months out of the year, it's a different thing. Like we need a durability because, quite frankly, we were killing each other.

Juan 1:08:14

Like if you couldn't get hit, but it's funny, so they fight more, but there's way less contact, and maybe that's the reason they there's less contact because they have to fight so much that they're just like, you know what, I'll just do this. If they only had two tournaments a year, they might just be like, I'm gonna let it rip. Does it make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

Yeah, it could.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:33

But is there still a certain point in a sport that you start focusing on, like, let's say, because I think coordination is huge. You know, I think a lot of our athletes just aren't coordinated, and I think going back to the whole athleticism thing, like lifting their knees up front and changing directions. I think there's at the bottom that stuff's important, but I feel like our sport has went very heavy on all this stuff you're talking about, all the strength and conditioning stuff. You can almost say in certain countries, certain places, it's almost 50-50, 60-40. Like it's a very heaven and heavy condition, and then taekwondo kind of matches because whether it's their style or the game, you only need this much. But I feel like so many countries have gone very heavy.

Juan 1:09:07

But that's why, that's why I I mean I'll go back to my Uzbekistan stuff, and even when I watch them, I still have a I still have a belief, you know, because I still know that Iran and Korea and they all can do Taekwondo, but they have this element where they're like, you know what, we gotta do some of this stuff, we gotta do some of this banned resistance stuff. We have to do some of this over speed stuff or some some of this resistance. So I I see it, and then it goes back to what you said, young. The system makes them fight this certain way. They're doing all this stuff, TJ. They can do all this stuff, but when they get in the ring, they stand there and they stay static. I mean, I always tell people it's better to have the tools and not, I said this before, better to have the tools and not need them than need the tool and don't have it. So, do I teach stepping and do I teach motion? Do I teach rhythm? Yeah, that should that should be the highest common denominator. That's what all the big guys can do it if they need it. Now, they might not need it, they might be able to just buckle down and and kind of stay in a pattern and they gotta have it as a kids they should have because you won't get it later. That to your point, TJ. If if they start at 10 years, eight years old and they're starting younger now, they're starting at eight, you know, seven, eight years old. And if they haven't like had that instilled in them by the time they're 12, 13, 14, forget it. It's not coming. It's not coming. It's it'll be too it's it'll be too manufactured, it's not part of their fabric, it's so like forced and rigid, yeah, yeah.

herb 1:10:40

That makes strides like you gotta sit there. You gotta like so you know, they talked about this in Korea back way, way before they were the first ones coming up. They did all their basic fundamental training when they were young. So by the time they get to university, they're just specializing, they're conditioning and specializing. And so I think you gotta build, that's why I hope that America. I still teach basics. I I mean, I don't mean like high block, low block. I'm talking about basic kicking, motion, you know, all the stuff that matters, check motion, sliding, getting in, getting out. And I'm gonna continue to teach it because that's what matters. Now, will it always matter? It'll matter.

Juan 1:11:18

I got little five and six years old doing I have you know steps that they have to make for yellow belt, steps they make for orange belt, step for green belt, steps that go with each other. So no, you had one of the best go with four or five.

herb 1:11:30

Your system, I know you don't want to share with it, but it'd be your system. I remember you telling me once what you did, and I was like, Man, that totally makes sense. Like that they have this, they know what fits, and then you add more stuff as it goes on, right? I mean, I thought that was really brilliant. So, all right.

Closing Jokes And Next Week Tease

herb 1:11:45

Well, it's getting late. I know we got you guys got to get up in the morning. TJ's got to get back up on Tinder to find a girlfriend and then a wife, but he's married for real, young. Is he really married? Yes, what? Yeah, his wife's married kill.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:59

Yeah, she gives me stabs.

herb 1:12:01

Is she so this might be my last episode on the JT? What's her name? Does she have a name?

Juan 1:12:06

No. Why do you never use her name, man? She was a natural team athlete from another country, too. Really? Yeah, and she lived here in Miami, too.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:14

He said Haitian, he's so stupid. We've had this, I've had this conversation with him, though. That's the silly part. This is not the first time we talked about this for sure.

herb 1:12:20

Never. You never told me you had a wife. I mean, I thought you were charming and interesting. Oh, that's where she is. This isn't a scene out of pulp fiction, is it? All right, anyway. What with that? All right. Oh, TJ. TJ just quit the podcast. All right. Now I I know I had your mom, I had your mom mad at me. Now I got your wife mad at me. Your imagin your imaginary wife. I run a lot of people that love me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:48

Hi, honey. Hi, hi, I miss you too. Oh, so nice. Hello. TJ, I miss you.

herb 1:12:54

All right, but one day bring your wife, put a picture up of your wife.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:57

Come on, now, you know. You don't follow me on Facebook, you don't follow me on Instagram. Go to my Instagram, you'll see plenty of pictures. Your wife? No, your Michael Jackson. Wife? All right.

herb 1:13:08

All right. This is me.

Juan 1:13:09

This has been the warehouse 50. We are. Okay, wait, wait. Hey, next next week I I have a doozy for you guys. Next week. Waiting for it. Wait for it. All right, we're out.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:20

Peace. Peace.

Juan 1:13:21

Hey, I stopped recording.