Masters Alliance Uncut
Honest Conversations with Masters of their craft about life and Olympic Sport Issues
Masters Alliance Uncut
Stop Buying “Experience” And Start Training
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Modern taekwondo has a problem nobody wants to say out loud: if the fastest path to “winning” is just making the chest protector beep, what are we training athletes to become? We get real about the split between building fighters and building point scorers, and why relying on rule quirks is a fragile strategy when the scoring system and equipment keep changing.
We dig into what fighting IQ actually is and how it gets developed over years, not weekends. Timing, distance, reading habits, and chaining decisions together (if A, then B, then C) used to be the backbone of high-level Olympic-style taekwondo. Now we see athletes over-padded, over-coached, and over-focused on the scoreboard, while the deeper skills that travel across eras get ignored. If you’re a coach, competitor, or parent, you’ll recognize the tension between “learning to win the match” and “learning to fight.”
Then we go straight at the development pipeline: too many tournaments, too much travel, early weight cutting, and the burnout that hits right after cadet and junior milestones. We talk long-term athlete development, why competing less can make you better, and how the coach-athlete relationship and continuity in the chair can make or break performance under pressure. If you care about taekwondo training, athlete development, coaching strategy, and the future of Olympic taekwondo, this one will challenge your assumptions. Subscribe, share it with your team, and leave a review with your take: are we building fighters or just chasing points?
Cold Open And Welcome Back
SPEAKER_03You thought you could post a warning. Now look around. Yeah. We told you our advice was gonna cost defeat. You wouldn't listen, couldn't listen. Stone code deaf to me. You thought you could, you know you should, you thought you would, but never could. For the exact same reason that a fish can't fly over heavy granite rock, ain't built to die. You're for genetically predisposed to a make your mind too scrambled up to ever rearrange or re-line. Because a TikTok make your brain on a fast track flight, walking straight into extinction in the faded light, just like the total word. You stumbled at the edge, following the others blindly, right off the ledge like lambs to whistle the house, wrapped in the random mindless disciples in the mess of style dance. So it's time to rewind and deliver the truth to the broke, in the broke, in the lost, and the youth will step in the sky. The rest of the mind is stuck in the 15-second draw. Follow the plan and rise to the crest with the prophets of tomorrow. Put info to the test.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, what's up?
SPEAKER_03Public enemy number one in the spot. To all the lesser known who thought they had what we got. So listen up, learn up and stop the defeat. Cause we're the only undefeated squad on the street. One team with the winners we haven't been beat. So step to the side and surrender, yo see.
SPEAKER_00Welcome back to the fully and brought to you fully from the East Coast. The warehouse 15 is in the house again, but for once, only for once. We didn't have to translate the time because TJ struggles with that. So we are all in New York at undisclosed locations because I want everybody showing up 10:30 p.m. And I just got done with my tour of everything, Ithaca, and uh there are a lot of trees here. A lot of trees and cows.
JuanIce coming get your ass.
SPEAKER_00Dude, ice has lost its mind. Ice has lost its mind. But that's a different topic for a different day. They didn't find TJ yet, so they can't really be all that good. What we got today, gentlemen?
SPEAKER_05All American, baby. Love it or hate it. What's up, coach? What you got going on? I'm excited about this weekend. We almost there. It's gonna be good. That's right. I'm excited. That's right. I'm excited. I'm excited.
JuanI give shout out to my man Regis Lima. Oh, sporting his shirt today. Okay. Nice jujitsu school. In the Taekwondo school. Good man. Did it come in?
SPEAKER_00Did I get this shirt? No. I got it.
JuanI just got I just got first of all. This for you didn't get this shirt, man. You can't wear this shirt, man. This shirt got too much juice in it for you. Jiu Jitsu, baby.
SPEAKER_00Oh,
Jiu-Jitsu Jokes And Humble Lessons
SPEAKER_00I don't think Jiu Jitsu. Mr.
JuanLima. No, he's a nice guy.
SPEAKER_00There's nothing, there's nothing I find attractive about laying on the floor with another man's testicles on my head. No, no, I didn't do jujitsu.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00Mr. President, I'll be you can't choke me out because I tap. I tap fast. I told you. I told you. They invited me to fight in the first UFC. Then when I found out it was not a lot of money, I kept going to law school. Then they asked me to fight to commentate the second one, which I commentated. But I do, I told you, sorry, I had a strategy. I knew that if I hit him with my right hand, he'd go out. If I missed, as soon as I missed and he grabbed me, I would be tapped. Listen, I remember back in the day. Back in the day.
JuanFirst of all, I you know, I love all fighting and stuff like that. And I appreciate it all. And obviously the UFC has changed. We're getting off topic. Changed, you know, the way people look at martial arts. No, but specifically, specifically, jujitsu obviously revolutionized, you know, the way people look at defense, you know, defending yourself. But anyway, back in the 90s, I went out, I was in California, and actually I was at one of our old friends, and uh he took me to Alf Gracie's school, and we did a couple, we did a private lesson with him, actually, two private lessons with him with some guys, and then we went to a class, and um some things he showed and some of the things he said were just hilarious to me the way he talked and the way he treated the students and stuff like that. But I I just remember being with these, I mean, I was 22, 23 years old, 24. I mean, I was still in good shape. I I could fight, I could do whatever. And all I remember is I had I asked, hey, what do I bring? What do I bring? And I brought my my my judo geek and I brought taekwondo pants. I didn't have like judo pants because they told me, oh, you just bring your taekwondo pants. Bro, as soon as I walked out of that locker room, everybody looked at me like I was from Mars. I'm like, oh shit, they're about to kick my ass, dude. They they knew I was some chump. So I get in there and I'm going with these again, middle-aged dudes, they're 35, they're 40. I don't know how old they were, but all I know is white belt after white belt had me tapping like I was a tap dan. I'm like, and I was so mad because I'm like, I think I could just punch this shit off these guys. Oh my god, it was so humbling, it was so humbling. But that was back in the 90s, man. And you know, I didn't stay with jujitsu like I wish I would have. But anyway, my man Bruges Lehman, he uh lives on the west coast of Florida. Good man. He has a great jiu-jitsu school, a good Tekwano school. I've done some programs with him, so shout out to him and his schools. That's it.
SPEAKER_05Nice shirt. It's comfortable as hell, too. I was about to say it looks like a good quality shirt. It looks like you know shirt, man. That's the right kind of bluetooth.
JuanYes, sir. Yes, sir, yes, sir. He's a good, like good guy. Anyway, so everyone's good? Yeah, I'm looking forward to having you come in, TJ. You know, I I you know, grandmaster goes all over the world, but he don't come down to Miami, you know, he don't come to North Carolina, always talking to Yayo. Coming to Tampa, I'm coming to Tampa. Homeboy goes to Ithaca. Ithaca. Ithaca. Sitting in a damn how you are you at a Howard Johnson's?
SPEAKER_00You look like can I tell you something? Can I can I tell you something? They're awfully proud of the rooms. Like I've been here before, and like, you know, I stayed close to the school. It's like parents' weekend, so there's like a million, you know, parents here, and they're all wearing, you know, they're all wearing polo shirts, and you know, they're all uh the golf club parents are here. So the hotel rooms downtown, and I love my son, but downtown, $700.
JuanNah, forget that. $700.
SPEAKER_00So I'm in Binghamton, which is in the middle of nowhere in Pennington, you know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_05You better, you better, you better go grab one of those rooms at the Waffle House.
JuanWhen I went when my daughter first started going to UF, she graduated UF and she's in law school now. But like when she went there, same thing. Like when I went for that onboarding or whatever it was called, man, I was just like shocked that there was like you said, there's thousands of people there, thousands, tens, we had 30,000 people. I mean, UM has or UF has like 80,000 people at the school. It's crazy, something like that. Nine, I don't know what it is, but it's just amazing when you go to these cities and that they're just full of university kids and families, and but it's fun, it's great. I mean, I'm happy that you're getting experienced there with him and stuff like that. It's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00Well, the kids, you know, the kid, you see the kids, and there's a lot of it's fun to watch the kids, and then you watch my son who's still trying to figure out his world, and uh he's doing it, he's doing what he does. But you know, like he he's uh you ask him questions, he's his name is Joe. My name's Joe, I don't know. So anyway, but we went to his dorm room, dropped off some stuff he had. Um, we weren't there for the first day that they moved in because they moved in early, and his roommate's parents must have felt sorry for him and bought him some stuff because he probably thought he was like homeless or something.
JuanHomeless kid. All right, let's get going. Let's get going. Like I said, yeah, TJ this this weekend. We have our little camp before we head off to Peru and then Korea. So it's gonna be a busy couple weeks. I was supposed to spark one of my new caps, but I'm gonna wait, I have to wait until we get there. But exclusive, exclusive, exclusive, exclusive. There you go.
Setting The Table On Development
JuanSo this I got a couple topics today, and um all you know, kind of revolves around like you know, athlete development and and stuff like that. And I don't know, I was thinking about something because TJ, we had a conversation last night that ended up not getting recorded and stuff like that. But we were talking about um I'm doing a uh a coaching presentation on the DNA of of the WT and the Olympic style taekwondo. And I, you know, one of the things I've done was, you know, I I I I kind of highlighted like Korea as the architects of of Taekwondo and talking about Iran and their and how they changed the way the game looked and how it got became physical and and personal and and religion and country-wise. You know, you had countries like Turkey that have been you know consistent for years, you have countries like China that made it very systematic, you have countries like GB that broke the mold on individualized coaching, and then you got countries like Brazil that use this really unique, weird kind of style to to elevate themselves. And you know, and of course, that nowadays we have countries like Uzbekistan and Thailand and some of these smaller countries that figure out how to win with certain certain weight classes, and so it's pretty interesting.
Fighters Versus Point Scorers
JuanBut when we were talking about it, TJ and Young, you know, chime in here. I was I came up with like, is it more important to to develop fighters or or point scorers, point chasers? Not not point chasers and like ranking points, but like points, like learning how to score points. And I have my own thoughts about it, but I I don't know. Like, what did you guys think about that? Because there's two different, you know, two different philosophies there, you know.
SPEAKER_05I would I would I would lean on, I mean, obviously, I would go in the direction of a fighter just simply because we don't know what these hogus are gonna do. You know, you could be a good score. We have very few people in our sport that score no matter what. And we've seen it, right? People that just score don't matter what system it is, don't matter where they hit it on the hogu, don't matter. They just always score, but I think those are few to none. So I think it's it's gotta be fighters, it's gotta be fighter intelligence, it's gotta be understanding distance and spacing more so than anything, because I think that's what made some of the people of this electronic era consistently good across the platforms, whether it was dado, KPP, um, whatever the other ones are. Yeah. So I would go more along the lines of that, but obviously I think a lot of people just you know focus on scoring points. That's why some of our techniques and things look the way they look, because we're not really concerned with the structure or anything, it's just make the hogu go off.
SPEAKER_00So I think I I think well, it's always interesting because we started this conversation with me talking to you guys a long time ago about there was a point where you taught two or three different types of taekwondo, the most two. There was what you did to get promoted, forms, traditional forms, whatever, and whatever nonsense your instructor thought you should you break wood and sit in a room and meditate like Baker's instructor. Or kicking targets, and that was fighting. That you could take what you learned on targets and put go into the ring and it would work. Then there was the change of scoring systems, and you needed to learn or teach three different types of taekwondo. There was the taekwondo that you needed to get promoted, kooky one, let's call it. There was the taekwondo you thought you should be teaching, picking targets and doing it. Then there was winning. How do you win? And what we find ourselves now with is at least it comes to fighting two different types of taekwondo. I think the problem though is the type of taekwondo that we used to teach is no longer being taught. And um, if and what's interesting even more than that was Taekwondo never really did body typing. Taekwondo was like you took an athlete, if they were fast and agile, they had certain attributes you thought they could be good, and if they were smart and athletic. Now they're body typing them. They got to be skinny, tall, flexible. That's a that's a starting place. And if they're skinny, tall, and flexible, you can teach them how to do the rest. Because it really doesn't require what we I guess what I would say was interesting, the one, and I'll go back to answering the question is the bottom foot, the calf muscle development to be able to do the skipping forward thing is interesting and something to be talked about. But I think right now they're developing point chasers or point scorers, and they're not developing athletes or people that can actually fight.
JuanLet me let me say this though. Um I I I agree with both of you guys' points and and maybe I let me rephrase the the the question a little bit because when I'm talking about like a fighter versus a point chaser, I'm just talking about a pure fighter. Like, is that is that is that important in the DNA? And I know some people say no, but when I look at like I I I I always look at the the top barometer. I always look at who's the best, and I always say, what do they have? I talked about in all my seminars, I talk about in all my my programs, I talk about every day with my athletes. Like, why are you looking at these chumps? Why are you looking at the mid-level stuff? You should be looking at the Michael Jordans, the Tiger Woods. You should be looking at the best of the best. And in my opinion, the best of the best have a fighter mentality first. Like, ball my fist up, and they're not afraid. You know they're good in a lot of things you said, TJ. They can score points and they're they're they're technical and tactical and in in this era, but you just see something about them, like you just know they could fight. And when I look at when I look at you know, even kids like Caden Cunningham, like that dude, that that kid says, I'll fight MMA. He's a taekwondo fighter, and he goes and fights in the MMA, he goes to Thailand and trains with Muita, like like that dude, that kid's a fighter. He plays the game of Taekwondo. When I look at the Iranians and things like that, I feel like they are. And like I looked right at home for me, and the Brazilians, all of them are fighters first. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like in it in even in their livelihoods and where they grew up. I mean, you look at these kids, I don't care if they're white, black, or or mulattoes, like they ain't afraid of walking into a ring. They're not they're not afraid of the moment. They might lose. They might get, but they're just they're fighters first. And I I think for me, I would, and I'm not talking an old school fighter mentality like that. I'm just talking about a natural fighter, a person that's willing to kick a few more times, a person that's willing to punch you or push you out of the clinch, and just have that aggressive martial art mentality of a judo player, a wrestler, a boxer, a jujitsu person. Yes, we can talk about all the tactics and technical things like that, but the mindset, the being of a fighter, I still think that that's the most important.
SPEAKER_05I think it is. I think it's most important. I think we kind of went the opposite direction when we started trying to tell people, because think about it, old school taekwondo. I say old school, you know, traditional taekwondo where you didn't really, you didn't really block. You made them miss, you hit them hard, or you hit them hard at the same time while covering. And then we went to this era where I thought we started, we I think we started teaching kids and like younger, you know, uh junior levels how not to fight, how to cancel and keep their leg up and keep the person away and not let them touch them and keep their head away. Like that in itself changes the whole makeup of what it means to fight. I mean, I watch kids, right? I mean, think about that. We've seen a lot of people that we go to the ring with guys that are really talented and like, man, we gotta deal with this person because they're just difficult to get to. Their legs are always in the way, they're always messing up the tempo or the spacing. And some of those people go on to be to win medals and you know, do yeah, yeah. I I think I think that kind of messed it up and changed it a little bit, but I think you're absolutely right when you look at the higher level players or the the Irans of the world, or the I I see it. You feel it, and you see it, and I think it kind of takes over the matches a little bit, and I think it kind of still instills that little bit of uh I don't want to say fear, but awareness in the person across from them, and you see people that oh this guy's had a good day, and they get in front of this this other guy, and now it's all of a sudden it's a little null and void, you know.
JuanBecause there's a few, there's only a few people right now that I think people are like are literally afraid to get in the ring with, and there's some there's some really good winners, and people will still take a chance at them and they'll steal a round, and they're kind of like if you think about again just the mindset of someone going. What's that? The round system changed it a little bit too. It did because you could you can actually say instead of saying I lost 20 to 5 or 20 to 15, you can say I took a round from athlete X, you know, who's supposed to be the biggest and the best. But um, so yeah, I think it's just uh it's it definitely has changed, but I don't know. I think the DNA of a fighter has to be there. And you're probably you know, I probably you are right, TJ. If you think about people just standing there and getting in the way, that is that is nothing that that doesn't resemble a fight, it resembles tactics and how to win the game and stuff like that, but not as a fighter. And but again, for me, not the common denominator of all the best fighters in any era is that they were they were just a fighter. And which brings me to my next thing is like you you you touched on it, TJ.
How Fighting IQ Gets Built
JuanAnd like, how do we build, how does a person build their fighting IQ? How do they build a hiding? Does it is it natural? Do some people just have it, or like what and there's different eras, right? Because obviously in the era of you and myself, Herbert, when you know, pre you know, Olympic or pre-uh electronic scoring, you know, IQ is different than what is is now, you know, what these athletes do now as far as intelligence. What do you guys think about that? Like, how do we build it? If you're talking to a kid, what do you think?
SPEAKER_00I don't think I don't think I think you you asked a good question in the first one that goes into the second one is I don't think that we I don't think fighters are drawn to the sport anymore. So you don't have fighters drawn to the sport. Basically, you have parents that bring in their snotty-nosed little kids who can't fight and want them to learn self-defense and life skill development, and then all of a sudden they get in there, they get pretty good at it. They realize they're not tall enough to play basketball or fast enough to run track, and this might be something they'll be good at. Because I have that conversation with parents all the time. I'm like, yeah, this is gonna be the thing your son is unique at. He's not gonna be good at anything else, but he'll be good at this, and he'll be unique at this because there aren't a ton of people that do it. So when you get that mentality, you gotta remember you're not coming in with a fighter. I came into Taekwondo, I was already athletic, I was already fast, and I was already predisposed to fighting because I got tired, I didn't want to get beat up. And then, you know, we you the the list goes on of people on this call and others, they came into Taekwondo schools to uh to be better fighters, and we like to fight, we like to compete. So you're starting with a different mentality already. So, how do you teach that? Or how you know, then you you gotta have a warrior mentality. Um and I even go back to my son, right? Um he's playing soccer, he's he's you know, he didn't grow up like me. He was playing soccer, and this kid from the hood is playing soccer against him, and the kid takes him and throws him to the ground, right? So he comes out and I go, Okay, how'd that, you know, you know, you can do that back. He's like, Baba is against the rules. Those words would have never escaped my mouth, right? So he comes out after that. I said, How'd that go? He goes, not so well. So next next game, you know, you've heard the story before you got a yellow card. I said, All right, yeah, somewhere between those two things. So when you build a fighter's mentality, do you remember Sean Burke? Sean Burke Heavyweight, right? My guy from Jersey. He was a white kid from Ridgewood, New Jersey. Rich, rich, parents are rich. And uh, you know, he had that same problem. Great fighter. But, you know, it took him getting punched in the face and getting two root canals to realize that he'd have to develop a fighter's mentality, or he's gonna be taken advantage of by guys who had that. So, can you develop it? You can develop it, but it comes through pain and loss.
SPEAKER_05That last part. That last part. I think because the question was about the building the IQ, and I think that last part, the pain part and the loss. I think we I I had electronics at the end of my career. Like I did my basically my entire career, and then we switched over to electronics towards the towards the the tail end. But I I think it was through fighting. You have to fight. You have to fight, and there has to be some I don't I don't know what's the word. There has to be some some bump and grind a little bit. You gotta hit each other, you gotta learn how to get hit, not to get hit, win the spacing, the the little the details and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00Um, but I I uh I um I think you mean like you mean like sandpaper, yeah. You don't mean bump and grind, that's a dance. You sounding like I mean staying. You sounding like a USA pastor that I know, USA taekwondo pastor, pimps and pinky rings. Is that the Next thing you're gonna say?
SPEAKER_05No, I mean standing in front of each other and trading shots and getting used to getting hit and knowing when you can afford to get hit and not get hit, I think that's that's that's uh that was a big part of it. I mean, in my when I train my guys, I fight the urge, and I even when I was at WCAP, I hated using the system because the moment I put the system on, everyone brains shoots to this scoreboard, and it's like they get comfortable at 2-0, they get comfortable at 3-0. And I think when we talk about other countries, I don't think they're they're they have that same mentality, but we're trying to win a match as opposed to fighting because that's the way it's gonna be.
SPEAKER_00When you were in the gym and you went into the gym to fight and train to fight, just you and your boy went in the gym to fight. Did you put a chest protector on? Uh sometimes. I never put a chest protector on.
SPEAKER_05You mean you mean if it's us two training by ourselves?
SPEAKER_00Like, train just going and going to the gym to fight. I put on arm guards, shin guards for my arms and shins, and I put a helmet on.
SPEAKER_05And I put a chest protector on.
SPEAKER_00The only time I put a chest protector on is when I was training for tournaments and I wanted to learn to score. When we fought, we fought without a chest protector because we were fighting. And if you got kicked, that was your fault. Like it was we didn't put a chest protector on to fight. That's a scoring implement. We didn't use it. We trained with it to learn how to score on it, and we did drills with double chest protectors because that's how hard we wanted to hit each other. So I laughed out because I see I see the USA team practicing with those huge chest protectors. They don't need those. Those guys can't. I like those though. I mean, yeah, you can like them, but they're not necessary. Okay, let me put it this way: if they're wearing those double chest protectors and they're hitting the way they're hitting, they're not feeling any impact. When we wear double chest protectors, you feel everything. Even though it's not a chance.
JuanYeah, but they're so let me go back for a second, right? Because we're not like we're talking about like develop, I I was talking more of a fighter's IQ in the sense of like how do they how do they learn how to win? I wasn't a fighter's mentality. That was almost that was almost a pre-given thing about of my first question, which was what's the more important? I think we all at least we agree that if you have that as a base, if you have that fighter's mentality, and that you know, where you could, you know, walk into the gym and and and and you feel like you're ready to fight with anybody, you're not afraid of it. And you're right, young. You know, now in our days, you know, guys that were pretty tough and could fight pretty good, they would go into a taekwondo or karate school. Nowadays, the kids that are pretty rough around the edges or feel like they want to have a a combat thing, they all go to MMA. They they don't come to Taekwondo, they don't go to karate, they go to it's it when we are there was something about that Olympic style trembling shock, whatever you want to say about it. But that's was that's what set us apart at that time, like tough people did taekwondo and karate back in the day. Now, tough people go to either you know MMA slash mue thai slash jujitsu because they think it'll be it'll carry on there. But I guess for me, the the fighting IQ is um I think that we're in such a rush to put people in tournaments nowadays. Because again, I'm gonna go back to us. We did way more training than we did competing. Now that was the system, right? We only had a few tournaments a year. You had to peak, there was periodization. I mean, people were at the contrary to what some of these other guys said, people were at their their best moments at at this one tournament. And if not, you had to wait a whole nother year. There was no three months later, or two months later, or a week later. It was it was like the end of the world when you didn't get on the podium, you know, because it was just like I gotta do this all over again. So even back to a state championship and a national championships, but so I felt like through that process of of training and going to Korea and going to camps and stuff like that. Your IQ had to get what you said, TJ, your timing, your spacing, your subtle movements, how just to evade away, you know, how to draw or trap somebody, which was so popular, you know, when we grew up, um, you had to have speed, you had to have timing, you had to have a setup. I mean, I just feel like the guys and then had they were as physically talented as they were, they were just geniuses in their fighting IQ. And I I think maybe if we spent more time training and and not so much time competing. And I I I'm gonna I'm gonna brag for a second here. I have a really good group of young kids right now that are not as far as long as as a result as maybe some other people. But I guarantee if you came there and you saw these 10 kids, you would say, Holy shit, these kids can step, these kids got stances, these kids can do like regular taekwondo and then the new taekwondo. It's it's kind of impressive. You're almost waiting for them to pop. Now, when they get in there, their IQ isn't perfect yet. Their taekwondo is good, and their IQ is starting to click. And TJ, you know, one of my better ones, Danny, his clicked. He's clicked about last year, and all of a sudden, he's making a lot of good decisions consistently over 10 tournaments, you know, and against pretty good. He's you know, he happened to be in one of those categories where all the kids are good. They're all pretty much badasses, you know, from New York, from California, from Texas, from from everywhere. So I don't know. I just I for me, I think that that IQ needs to be developed that way.
SPEAKER_05I think it's breaking that fear barrier, one is when it starts to click a little bit. But you say, you know, you said something really interesting is that we used to train a lot more than we competed. But I'll take you one step further. We used to fight a lot more too. When I was even my time at WCAP and at my gym now, I find it hard to let my guys fight. We fought Monday through Sunday, Monday through Saturday. We fought. And I do it now a little bit. I'll have them step light in control, but now we went to the gym and no, but every day we fought Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. There was no escaping it. You were gonna stand in front of someone and they were gonna try to hit you every day.
JuanLet me ask you this real fast. You said about fighting all the time. This is crazy too, because everybody wears so I mean, I talked to my kids today about everybody wears the gloves, the big elbow pads, the boots on the shin, the knee pads, the elbow pad. They wear so much padding nowadays. Like, and we didn't wear padding, and we weren't kidding. Like, and we did this every day. Uh, I'm gonna be I'm gonna knock on wood, hope I don't jinx myself. You come to my gym, not one kid wears anything on their feet, not one kid wears anything on their hands. They have shin guards and foreign guards, height gear, chest guard. If I wear it, young, you're exactly right. If I put chest guards on, I put chest guards on just so it's bulky for them, just so they could feel it, not to protect them. Literally, if you get kicked in the face in my gym, you get kicked in the face. I mean, but I know you got to be safe and be but yourself like that. But sorry, TJ, but uh thinking about when you said fighting every day, that's something fought more.
SPEAKER_05So about building when you talk about building IQ and building awareness. Well, you had to do it Monday through Friday and Saturday. I think with competition, well, I think we're talking about senior level, but with competition schedules and always going here and going there, there's there's not really much opportunity to to to grow in that aspect.
JuanI think you're you're spending more time trying to win, you know, trying to for that I can't for that I can't blame the high-level athletes because like we we balance it too with with with Brazil. There's just too many tournaments. It sucks. I mean, the the the action the the the and you can attest to this. How many big tournaments have we seen that have just been a letdown because the people are just fighting way too much? Like they're good, and they're just you just watch them and they're just like, eh, I'll fight in two weeks. I got another one if I win or if I lose, or yeah, I I win a world championships, but there's a grand prix that's worth 60 points coming up in a month. Uh I'll make it up over there. It's crazy.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and that's that's another thing, though, too. I I like you said, you know, we would go one tournament, two tournaments, and it was a big tournament, whatever it was, states, whatever it was. You had to prepare for the national team stuff. But now it's like you have this weird goal of going, okay, I'll only get 20 points now, I'll even get 40 points now, and I'll get 20 points here, 15 points here. I think we're just we're playing by different rules when it comes to that part of it. You're not really, you know, these guys like you said, you see someone win the world championship and have to turn around a week and a half later and go fight a grand prix, which is in the grand scheme of things in the long run, almost just as important, you know.
JuanHow
Overexposure And Too Many Tournaments
Juanmuch what would you do? But both of these, this is I I was I was I was looking at my notes and I said, Are we developing athletes too fast in this country or are we are or are we overexposing them too fast? So your guys' mentality, you you see a talented kid, do you say, you know what? He he has something. I'm gonna I'm gonna try to get him up on these teams. I'm trying to you know make him her, you know, at this high level, and hope that I can kind of push past the the the barrier that we all know comes, you know, 16, 17. Um or do you just say, you know what, I'm gonna fight that urge and just step by step by step and think that you're gonna what you're gonna do is the right thing to do and keep them. And if they're gonna stay, they're gonna stay. And if they're not gonna stay, they wouldn't have stayed anyway. Do you so do you run them knowing that they might just they're probably gonna go? Or do you just stick to your guns and say, I'm gonna go step by step by step by step? And if they can make it to their 20, 21, 22, and they and they're ready to win, that's the way I'm gonna do it. That's that's a tough one.
SPEAKER_05I I I think it's on again, because of all, I think when they started doing cadet world championships and cadet championships, I think that changed everything a little bit. I don't think any of that stuff's important, unfortunately. Because, like you said, we've all I've been around people that we started this sport as a kid to be the best adults. There was never this like stopping point. You know, you wanted to make the junior team, you wanted to get the junior world medal, the junior panthem championship medal. But all of us, we wanted to be better seniors, we wanted to be the senior national team. I think that was the goal, that was the the the next step so we can go fight the the big tournament. So for me, I I try to manage, yeah. I try to manage very evenly. Like I'm like, look, you know, I got I got at some you know, middle of the ground, you know, cadets and juniors, and some you know, people starting to be early seniors. It is what it is. I think, I think for the long term, the development is what keeps them around when they know they're good enough to go win. Maybe they lose, but they know they're in the mix with everyone else, they can go win. And like you said, that popping moment happens, and you know, you they have all this background and development, and now they're ready to go win. I it's hard for me.
JuanI don't want to I don't want to cross hairs because we've talked other times, you know, about our kids, you know, how they compete at the cadets and junior world championships. And I think they need to be ready, they need to um show that they're they're they're they they're able to compete with the best of them, but I'm the same way. Like I've never in my life thought about trying to make a the best cadet in the world or the best junior in the world. I really I've never once said that, even before you came to my gym, TJ, after you until right now. Like my goal is to make the best senior possible and hopefully make a national team and hopefully make an Olympic team and hopefully get an Olympic medal. That's that's always my my goal. And and I've I've had a great conversation with my parents. Like, I want your kid to win along the way. I want them to win at the stops, you know, at the junior or cadet junior stops. I love that. I would think it'd be an amazing thing to see your kid represent the national team, but I'm not gonna overexpose them, I'm not gonna overwork them. I'm I'm gonna make sure that this still stays fun. I'm gonna make sure that they enjoy their teammates in the process along the way. So if they do quit, they quit and they're happy with how things went versus man, he made me lose weight, or man, we took me to so many tournaments, and wow. It just because I feel like that's it right now, TJ. I feel like these kids, Utopia is cadet in junior worlds, and after that, they're just like this. They all go just like this. They all go, I don't know. I want to, I think I just want to be normal. I think I just want to go hang out with my kids, my guys every once in a while. I think I want to go watch a movie, you know, go go go bowling and eat some pizza. And I don't blame them because there was so much push to make them the best. They don't have that that second or third gear to go for another three or four years, you know.
SPEAKER_05I mean, you you you put it on the spot. It's like when we are, again, I have a big thing with cadets and juniors cutting weight. Like me personally, I went up a weight class every one of my junior years. Like my coach never said, Hey, you need to cut down six pounds or gotta say five pounds less than this as a kid growing up because it's not important. It's really not important. We never were looking for the competitive advantage height-wise. Like you were just saying, uh, grandmaster, like we never the tall, skinny kid, or you didn't pull someone and say, Oh, this kid's gonna be good because he's tall and skinny. Like it wasn't a thing. So as your body developed, you got stronger, you got tougher, and you fought where your weight was. I think we've kind of changed that probably all around the world. I mean, you see it. Some of these kids are just like 6'1, you know, like it's it's crazy. And but you see them there malnutrition, you know, small guys. And I I don't think I think that puts a lot of pressure on them growing up too. So I I really I think that that that's a big that's a big barrier when it comes to keeping them in the game long enough and the development side of it because we're not worried about development, we clearly are worried about winning if we're having our kids cut weight.
Youth Development Without Weight Cuts
JuanBut winning at 12 years old, winning at 22 years old, the similarities and the differences are there?
SPEAKER_05It's totally different. It's totally different. I I think again as as a 22-year-old, I think you're you passed that barrier of 16, 17, 18 years old, and you're kind of doing it for real at that point. I would assume you know, you're doing it for real, you're putting it on the line and kind of trying to you know make it happen. I think at 12, you should just be trying to figure out and you should be having a little bit of fun, and it should be tough. It should be you obviously we're aiming to win, but I I don't think there's I mean, could you tell me one? What what do you think the similarities are?
JuanNo, I I I don't think there's any similarities. I just think that you know, people people, how many times have people say, oh man, when I was in the cadet world championship, they're trying to talk about that in comparison to the senior world championships or something like that. I mean, I I I I had an athlete that you know trained with me that was that fought for Puerto Rico, that got a cadet world medal and never was able to like climb the ladder, you know. And it was just a and I felt like they were always still living in that. I get it, I guess my point is we've put such an emphasis on on running these kids so hard and all or nothing right now at 12 and 13, 14, 15 year olds, that by the time they get to the 22nd, I mean, or 22 years old, I just use those numbers 12 and 22 just to kind of throw it out there to kind of be a comparison. But I mean, I think there would be if I if I could make some similarities, it'd be if I close my eyes and said, man, that kid is really having fun right now at 12. That kid at 22 just seems like uh he he loves it. She loves it. I was talking to a girl the other day, and you know, she said, Yeah, I think I can go get you know past you know 2028. And I looked at her and I thought about it for a minute. I said, you know what? I think your your your your body's like young and strong. Like I don't see her getting older and slower. She's actually more explosive and more durable. I definitely know her IQ is is not what it should be at her age, right? I think she's far behind. So if she could add in some of that, you know, her body is holding up. I mean, I know some athletes, male and female, that you know, they get 26, 27, 28, and they just start, you know, they you know, the knees don't feel great, the ankles don't feel great, the hips don't feel great, the back doesn't feel great, so on and so on, you know. So um, I don't know. I think that, but they both can have the love of and that passion where you kind of saw it at different stages of their lives, right? One is just is is it pure bliss when you're a kid, and the other one is just like I appreciate this and I love that I'm able to do this at 22 years old.
SPEAKER_05It's crazy you say 20. It's crazy you say 22 because 22 was young at one point, yeah. You know, 22 was you were still trying to know a baby in some cases. Yeah, you were trying to make the national team because there was 24, 25, 26, 27 year olds on a national team that were strong to do that did have more than you. Now it's it's changed a lot. 20. You say 22, but it's funny that we stopped there because that used to be kid age, you know, and now we're looking at 22-year-old, like maybe they got a half a cycle left. Maybe they're you know, this is this is the end, you know.
JuanThat's one thing I don't like about the Olympic. I know, like I know the Olympics will tell you that you know the ages are a little bit younger, right? I mean, they're they're younger than their 18, 19-year-old for kid for women and 21, 22, 23 for men. But I think each country has to be look at it differently, right? Because we some countries can develop or develop the people develop later. Sometimes you can hold them on a little bit longer because you don't have as many people. So I think you have to. I mean, that number is a little skewed for for for us, um, because I just don't see us having any 18-year-old phenoms that can go win a world championship or Olympic gold medal. Um I guess it could happen, but it hasn't really happened. So, you know, my my thing is we probably need to keep them around. This maybe is my big thing. We got to keep them around longer.
SPEAKER_05And we haven't for us in the United States for sure. I don't think I think we've always had mature champions. I think. I mean, obviously, there was the the exactly, but we had mature champions, people that were in there, they were in the game long enough. They did have time to develop and build, and it wasn't this like hot or cold thing. But now it's it's it's we're we're not we're not there anymore. But I think that's important. I think for me, I I hate that. I I fight that bracket of going like, oh, you have to be young or 21, 22, 23. I don't care about none of that. I think if you got it, if your body feels good, if you've been trained the right way, if you have that, that doesn't matter when you quit because we look at heavyweights that go for a long time too. No one says anything because they're heavyweights.
JuanHere's a weird thing like in America, it's not uncommon for a 25, 30 year old to live with their parents, right? So like things have gotten delayed a lot longer. People get married later, people have kids later, people start their careers later. Like in your day, young. I mean, my I had people that got married right out of high school. They got married at 18 years old. They had a family by the time they were 20, 21, they were grown, grown adults at 23. Like they had stuff going on. But nowadays, with everything starting later, I'm surprised that people aren't willing to stay around the sport a little longer because there's no hurry to go get a job. There's no hurry to like get kicked out of the house. You know what I'm saying? That's a that's so interesting when you think about the way society revolves around the family. There's no need, there's very little need to run out and and be on your own at 18, 19, 20 years old anymore. I mean, my daughter's 25.
SPEAKER_05Do you think there was a need or a want? For what? Like to be out of the house by 17, 18, 19 years old.
JuanI I think it was I think there I think it was a a want. And I also and I also think that again, society kind of said that. Like, dude, if you were a 22-year-old kid and you were living at home, you were a deadbeat. Like you had nothing going on. Like you're like, you didn't go to school, you ain't got no job, you don't have no girlfriend or whatever. Like that was like considered like a taboo nowadays. Yeah, 30, you know, plus living at the house, which again, I'm not against. No problem. If you can, if you could do it, if you could support them and that's where they want to be, no problem. I'm not making a judgment, but I'm just saying, since all that stuff is pushed back later nowadays in society and it's acceptable, why don't the athletes stay a little bit longer in this country?
SPEAKER_05Well, I think, I mean, why? I mean, it's the system at the top. There's no so for real way to go, okay, if I stay another two, three, four, five years in this sport. Like I said, we we just watched this. Listen, we just watched this talent ID camp where we have seniors being named tier two athletes. That to me would be disrespectful. I don't care. Congratulations, all that good stuff. But if I was their age at that time and I went into a room with other fighters, and then at the end of the weekend you told me I was tier two compared to everybody else, I'd have an issue. Because that no, is it is it is it wrong for me to say that? I think you know, I I think that's the that's the problem. How do you how do you again, like you said, our goal is to keep them in the sport long enough for them to get past 16, 17, 18, 19 years old, so they enjoyed enough, so they're ready enough to go take on this senior this senior path of going to be the best in the world. But there's a big block right now in our country of how you get there, you know?
JuanYeah, yeah, yeah. So we talked a little bit about like is is it a do we need to have a fighter's mentality? I think we all kind of like that. That's kind of our thing. And again, I'm not please don't I don't want to hear people say, Oh, yeah, but you need to learn how to play the game. Listen, you've always had to learn how to play the game. In our day, you had to have a fast kick, you had to have a pot of chuggy, you had to have a double kick, you had to have a cover punch. Those were technical things. Me prior before me, people like your first coach, you know, uh uh TJ, you know, was pure brutal, right? I mean, guys that could just kick harder than you, they just won. And then people learn how to fast kick and people learn how to draw him out and and pick him apart. So I get that you need to learn how to play the game, you know. Which then we talked about like building the IQ.
Coach Athlete Trust And Continuity
JuanWe talked about, you know, are we developing athletes too fast? So I guess I'll throw one more little caveat in there like, so what's the importance of the athlete coach relationship and how how big how important is it one way or the other at the top level?
SPEAKER_05You want to start first, Grandmaster? Being too quiet for me. Grandmaster. Keeping it real. Grandmaster.
SPEAKER_00I think coach, coach athlete relationships, and those are two different conversations. Coach, a coach athlete relationship. You have a master and an athlete relationship, which comes from where they started to learn Taekwondo. And then depends whether that coach is the actual coach. Or he passes them on to somebody else. But it's the most, for me, it was the most important relationship. So when I found the right coaches, I had better results. And I kept that relationship regardless of everything else in the world. So that's just the difference in players. Now I think they think coaches are disposable.
JuanBut let me ask you something, because I I don't know. I I know you pretty well now lucky enough to see you fight at the tail end of your career, to be honest with you. I mean, I I I can't say that you were at the best peak of your life in 1992 when you won your Olympic gold medal, but but you did. And if I'm not mistaken, there wasn't too many coaches that you you had uh you held in high regard. And I was in an era when the coach just won. I mean, I was at a an era with you that there was very, very, very few coaches that could run even a training. Like DJ, they could they couldn't even run a training for us. So we were like, everything we did, we just thought was ridiculous, and that's why we had to do our own thing. So, young, I I've saw you sit in chairs, and even even in the Olympic final, you know. I mean, I I'm not quite sure. I mean, obviously, you know, you know, Coach Park was a a very unique, special kind of person, but like I'm not sure technically or tactically he had a lot to tell you in that moment. So that's what I'm asking because there's a conflict here.
SPEAKER_00That's a different conversation. So for us in our generation of coaches, we didn't have we had friends. So we had friends and teammates that we would look to advise. So I was looking out to my friends and teammates who knew me better. So coaches in our generation were, and I have a lot of respect for Master Park, he was more of a um spiritual coach, like the guy who's gonna get you to the place where you need to be in the ring in the arena. He wasn't gonna tell you, not that he couldn't, but for my game, he wasn't the guy that was gonna tell me what to do to win. That was Steve Capner or you or or or Kevin Padilla um or Mark Williams, right? But even Mark didn't have the skill set to tell me what to do. He was more of a coach park, right? So yeah, there wasn't we had more dependency upon ourselves. I um yeah, and if I had a preference back then, I would have had Steve Capner as my guy. He was a guy that understood the type of taekwondo I was trying to do. He had things that he could add, he would see things that I would he would understand what I was capable of and be able to plug it into the situation in front of him, right? Like Kevin Padilla beat Clay Barber regularly because of Steve Capner, because Steve could give him exactly what was necessary to win, right?
JuanI think it's TJ, I know you you got a lot to say in this because I uh and I I'll I'm just gonna say real fast on that because I'll let you go and then I want to maybe add in some stuff, but like it's funny because I I think I was a little bit like you. Like I had I had a couple good coaches that I when they told me to do something, I would do it. But I had more times that I didn't have good coaches, and I never literally I never said I won because of them or I lost because of them. Like it was me. It was me 100%, and that sounds arrogant, but when I lost, it was my was my fault, or I didn't do enough, you know. And when I won, it wasn't because this guy had some magic trick to tell me. There was just a few matches that could say, this somebody called something for me. But um it's weird because then we talk about all these modern day kids that like they are better off with their home coach. You probably would have been better off with Steve Kapner, you know, and and and getting them ripped out. I don't think many people have the same mentality as us anymore, because I know for a fact there's many kids that I coach. If I'm not there, it's gonna be tough for them. And I think that's the same thing, TJ, is one of our gripes about cadet and junior teams, where these kids are doing pretty well with one person or you know, a coach, and they bring that coach to the team, and then they don't they put them in a chair with somebody, no matter how well intentioned, they don't know how they think, they don't know what they do every single day, they don't know where they grew up, they didn't see them, they they just don't know anything about them. No matter how intelligent they are, there's somebody more qualified at that moment. Now, I think that could change at a high, high level, you know, at the in it in maybe you know, seniors or worlds or whatever. But I'm sorry, I know I'm talking a little bit too much, CJ, but go ahead.
SPEAKER_05No, no, no, no. I I I agree with everything both of you guys just said. I I think it's it's important. It's always been important. It's been important from a development level, it's been important from you know, those moments you talk about junior worlds and everything. Like those are big moments, and I think the right coaches have to be in the chair in those moments because whether it goes good or it goes bad, they gotta fix it. And I don't think we have the opportunity to do that anymore because they go and you know they win or lose, and then they go back home and we do it all again, and then we select a new team and new coaches and all that stuff. There's just no continuity between it. I think there's no you have to be comfortable with the person in your chair, and I think you guys gotta be on the same page. You really gotta be on the same page. And when I say that, I think, like you said, you were able to leave your and go somewhere else with a worse coach or someone that wasn't as good. But you were working with someone in the gym probably every single day that gave you the things that you needed to be capable and ready to go and fight in those moments without them. I I was I had to experience that a little bit when I was growing up because um my my coach uh Masherice he couldn't travel for a big chunk of my career. So when I went to German Open and you know, all these different opens, I went by myself and some other coach sat in the chair. And I'll be honest with you, sometimes, like you guys just said, like there were a coach in my chair that like, I didn't even want to look at this guy, but he was from my area, he was from my area. They were going over with groups, and my coach, like, you need to go with them because I can't go. And half of the time I wouldn't even look at this guy. He was just there to kind of just be there because I knew he wasn't gonna tell me anything I needed in a moment. I kind of just separated myself from those things, but you knew that. And I think we were trained for that. I was trained for that. I was trained to kind of be adaptable with different rooms. It didn't really make a difference what room I walked in. I was able to kind of adapt and kind of pull what I needed out of it and kind of progress. But I don't think where these kids are, they're being pulled too early in those situations because as a junior and cadet, I didn't have to deal with that. Obviously, on the junior the the world team level or whatever, maybe, but all the other stuff, I was able to be with the coach that kind of helped me grow up and they knew my on and off switch, they knew what I needed. And I think I think right now we're we're kind of as a nation, we're pulling everyone away from that because they're telling people there's better coaches out there. There was no better coach for me. I didn't care what this other coach did, there was no better coach for me. It's impossible at the time, you know?
JuanAnd I would have a little more again. I listen, I was a national team coach at one point in this country, and you know, I had to coach people that I didn't know. And and and I'm gonna say that at least I at least me and and my my co-coach, we we worked hard coaching everybody. You know, we just didn't like pot them off to like this up and coming person. I mean, listen, we had people on our coaching staff, we had people like Clay Barber, you know, we had people like Kevin Padilla, we had people like Master Jinsa, we and we just didn't throw them at them. You know, we would take them, and if they could sit in a chair that have someone that they knew specifically, then we would do that, you know? We would we would take those chances. But I think in these situations that we're talking about now, TJ, is like we've seen these kids at Cadets Worlds and seniors and their coaches be there, and the other coach has no interest in them, but yet they sit in the chair for I'm not sure for what, because listen, I know maybe I'm an anomaly, or maybe there's a couple coaches that are anomalies. I know that I I've been able to get a lot out of people that even when I didn't know them, you know what I'm saying? Like even um, you know, or just working with them for a couple days or a couple weeks, I've been able to sit in their chair. Heck, I just sat in a chair, you know, for four matches, you know, at the Pan American Championships of a female lady that just came back and beat one of the highest ranking people per people in the in the world right now, one of the hottest young girls. And to be honest with you, it was easy. And it was a little bit of X's and N's. Yes, she had to pull the trigger and she had to kind of follow the plan, but I was able to get that out of her. I mean, her two previous tournaments, she lost her first match. Was it all her, all me? I'm sure it was a little bit of a combination, but you know, there's got to be something to that, right? You know, when you have a certain like, you know, coaching IQ. So I can see it both ways, but I definitely think at a young age, the kids need to be with the person that mentored them. I just think they're gonna be much more comfortable. And you know what? If for some reason something happened in the ring that maybe let's say a high-level coach that's out watching it, they're watching Coach X and Athlete X compete and they they made a mistake in a round or whatever, that's when the coach, the head coach or whatever comes over and said, Listen, you know, tough match. Here's what happened. But you know, what what were you guys thinking at that moment, you know, where you attacked when you were, you know, winning? You know, why not you know cancel it out? Why not give some motion? Why, why not throw some, you know, say what were you thinking here? Because I don't know if you told her to do that or that you, you know, she did it by herself, but I think there was some kind of miscommunication there because that was a that was a wrong play. That was those were the wrong tactics at that moment. And you know, you can you can kind of coach them through them, you coach them up, coach the athlete up, coach the coach up, and maybe they'll be in a better position next time, you know. But I don't feel like we've been doing that. Could be wrong.
SPEAKER_05No, no, you're probably not wrong. Most of the times you're not wrong when it comes to this type of stuff. I I it's hard for me because that is that when you look at the national team stuff, it does happen. People go and you know, but like you said, I think you made a good point when even my junior team time and my my national team times, we did long stretches of camps, and it wasn't just a particular group. We came together with a bunch of the coaches, and you know, I think you guys, from what I understand, felt out who was better with who, or how do we how do we navigate this team and make it cohesive and you know get the best result overall as a team? I I don't I never felt like obviously every team has their front runners and their big dogs, but it was more that was the easy one. Now, how do we get the rest of these to get up here so the overall team wins? And I think right now we're not so concerned about that. I think, like you said, we're just managing and you know putting people in situations and like and um I don't know, just it I think that's not important. I think we're trying to we're worried about more individual winning than as a whole team winning, is what I feel.
JuanI'll wrap
Talent, Intelligence, And Being Unique
Juanthis this you know line of questioning up. Is it talent or intelligence? For what? Getting to the getting to the mountaintop.
SPEAKER_05I think it's both. I mean, you gotta, I think everybody wants to start with somebody talented, but I think it's intelligent. I've seen some some kids that like they just get better because they start to understand what they need to do and how they need to do it. And I've seen some talented kids just kind of fizzle because that's all they gotta do.
JuanThat short long-armed short legged guy right there. I I think it's intelligence. I I I mean, listen, we wanna you're right, TJ. We want a six foot three, blah blah blah, flexible, whatever. I I think it's intelligence.
SPEAKER_05I mean, I think but can talent not be intelligence? I like can talent like I think the your your IQ of your intelligence is like a talent. Some people are just smarter, yeah. They're just smarter than enough. I think that's that kind of mixes in a little bit.
JuanBut it's funny because we say talent as in I'm tall, I'm flexible, I'm strong, I'm I'm I'm agile, I'm dynamic, you know. I'm like, oh man, that guy's so talented. Like two words I hate when people say you need more experience, and you this guy's talented. I'm like, what does like you're exactly right, TJ? What does that mean? Talented at what? I can fucking I can throw this up in the air and catch it. I'm talented, you know, or I'm talented that you know what? I I come to training every day, I listen, I can apply, I'm I'm talented in my in my execution. I'm talented in my IQ, I'm talented in my my being, my mindset. You know, for me, and then that you know, experience thing. Oh, you need more experience. That no, tell me what I need to do. Tell me neat where I need to go. Someone that just says, Oh, you need more experience, it's just like they they don't have nothing to say to you. They don't know how to fix the problem, they don't know how to fill in the holes.
SPEAKER_05But that's what that's what we're doing right now. We're like, you know, we're always you know parading around saying we're going to all these different opens and fighting all these different tournaments for experience. I don't believe you like you said, I think we talked about a long time ago. Like every experience isn't a good experience. That's right. Like every every kid or every athlete doesn't need that kind of experience. Maybe the experience is you need to go back to training and train more. Yeah, that's the experience. We don't need to spend X amount of dollars or do this to fly over here just to see what happened, just so we can have the experience.
JuanLike, that doesn't mean that these coaches are saying, Oh, we need to, you know, go to you know, fighting in in Europe and stuff like that. We need to go do fighting in Korea. We need to go. I'm like, you guys need to train. You guys are skipping the steps. You guys are you're you're you're so quick to just say, We're there, we went to the German Open, we went to the Dutch Open, we went to the Korean Open. I'm like, yeah, I went to the Grand Prix. I saw so many people going to the Grand Prix challenges that went, they lost two rounds to zero, 12 to 0. They didn't score a point. They got point gap, point gapped. I'm like, you did not need to waste your time, money. That was not a good experience. I'm sorry, it was not it. You needed to go back and train. And so, you know, when I see all these, you know, people, these teams and these quick to we're trying to take people and give them experience. No, they need to train. And you're going back to fundamentally just saying this is what I was talking about, not rushing the the process, not trying to win with these cadets right now and get a bronze medal, get a silver medal because you had two matches, three matches, and it looks good on your resume. It looks good. No, no, no. Do the right thing, train the right way, prepare the right way. And if you're gonna win, you're gonna win. And if you're good enough, you'll win now. And if you work hard enough and you have the talent of all these things we talked about, you'll win when it's really important. Nobody cares about a world cadet champion, nobody cares about a junior world champion to care about a senior world champion.
SPEAKER_05This is true. I think it's the we live in a world of uh tech wondro tourists. I I I really, I really TT, I like that. You know, I I think we do because I think too when we talk about point chasing now, back to point chasing, going to a lot of events to get these points and doing these things. I think if you don't got the deep pockets, if you do not have deep pockets, I think you should be very selective about what you're going to. And when you do choose to hop across and do something, it should be you're ready for it because we're going to accept this challenge and push through this challenge. I think now we just do a bunch of shit. Like it we get caught up going here and going there and going there. I used to be very strict with like some of my WCAP guys, they'd ask me, like, why would we go there? Why would we go to this open? Are we gonna win? Are we ready to win? And I would have to put them to the fire a little bit because I don't like wasting my time either. And I don't like going over there and bullshitting with your time. Like, I don't think we're ready for that level, and I think we've gotten away from that. We, you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, they made this team, or oh, someone's gonna fund us to go here. So, so and then what are we gonna do when we get over there? Is my issue. Like you said, it's not the experience. I mean, spend your spending your time learning experience of training, hitting the hogus, training, being in a hot room, being in a cold room, working with different athletes, uh, fighting, just in general, is what I would say you need more experience doing. It's not about the system, and that that you made another point about like you know, we need to go fight here and fight there. I I never understood that. Oh, because you know, this country has a certain fighting style, this country has a certain fighting style. What about what you do? Because that's always been what's matters. Well, how good can I do what I do good? Everything else is irrelevant. I don't care if you can flip, flop, twist your leg, whatever. It don't matter. You kick it, it don't matter. That's the kind of generation I think that we've gotten away from in America. Like, I don't care what we didn't. I I know for all my teammates and the higher ups, we had our own little thing. Like, I didn't really care what these guys, I just want to be better than that guy. I wanted to be better than you, I wanted to beat you, and I was gonna do it my way because I that's this is what I tried to do every single day. It didn't matter.
JuanI don't know if it was you guys, you know, young or the people before you, but I'll say that was that was a mentality. That was a mentality. It doesn't matter what Turkey, Iran, or Korea does or Spain does. We do what we do, and we have to do it better, and that's it. And and if our our good enough isn't good enough, then we're definitely not gonna go change and chase everybody and try to emulate everybody. And so we for sure have gotten away from that, TJ, because we we we had a staff that came in and said, what you guys have is not good enough. We gotta do it our way, and then it's like, wait a minute, we have to do it the the Serbian way or the uh Croatian way, or now the Korean way, the Irani way. It's funny because everybody is talking about something else instead of what again, man. I'm sorry, I'm gonna sorry, I'm gonna give myself a pass. That's all I I I beat into the my Brazil team's head is like we do it our way. We can learn from them, we can watch them, but for better or worse, it might not be like you watch if you watch Enrique, the world champion, that dude's not that flexible, like you know what I'm saying? He's not that guy, but he knows how to score, he's strong, he's he's tough, he's durable, he'll he's not afraid of any moment. That's crazy. Now you got Maria Clada, she's a midget, she's a midget against giants, and but she can kick, or she's she can do whatever she wants. So talk about breaking the mold. One's not flexible, one's super short, and they're both world champions. Like, how about that? They just said, This is what I have, and I'm better than you.
SPEAKER_05And I'm sure they don't spend too much, I'm sure they don't spend too much time trying to develop skills that kids don't have or they don't have or they don't work with. Like, I watch some, you know, obviously, you know, the the internet's flooded with all these training videos, and everyone's got the the best new drills. But I see kids that are early adults, whatever age, whatever, it doesn't matter, not able to to lift their leg up and hop, but they're still practicing hopping and extending their leg. And it's like there's no way you're gonna hit anybody with that. It took you eight and a half seconds to get across the ring, but yet we spend so much time doing it. You know, am I lying? Oh, you're not lying. That's some funny stuff, though. It's it's baffling to me. I think we've, like I said, everything's online. We watch these videos and like this series, do it this way. And you're teaching your kids who aren't flexible, who aren't tall, who don't have that style to do this because that's what wins. I don't think that's what wins. I think what wins, like what you said. What do you do well? What can you do to affect the the game and the fight that's gonna make you successful in the long run? But I think we have gotten away from that. We try to train everyone, some people try to train everyone to say, and it's impossible.
TikTok Training And Broken Scoring
JuanHey, this has been kind of fun. No drama, no drama.
SPEAKER_05What I don't know. I don't I don't want I can't end with no drama. I saw he changed his name to Grandmaster of keeping it real.
SPEAKER_00No, no, no, no, no. I think this has been a good podcast. I think it's a bad thing, it's about positivity, and what Cosh Reno said is true. At the end of the day, if you take an average player and try to make them a great player, if they don't have certain attributes, they don't have the right amount of perseverance and intelligence, intellect. So if you take a look at anybody in our sport, anybody in our sport with the exception of one that I can think of that has had a career that mattered. They were usually intellectually very astute. They were very bright. And they um because taekwondo back then required a certain amount of requisite intelligence because it was a very complex system of fighting. The second thing they were, and this is where the person that wasn't that bright made up for it, they had to understand gamesmanship. They understand how the game worked and how they could take the tool set they had and fit it into the strategic framework and take advantage of it. And this individual, one of the best fighters in the United States, was able to do it. It wasn't the brightest bulb by by any stretch of the imagination. But he was a bright taekwondo player. He had sport intelligence. And then the third thing is you have to have somebody who's willing to be unique. Because to be unique is to be an outlier and to go outside the system. And I don't mean leave the system, go outside the system, but be willing to do something that others don't do. And I have this, you know, obviously I always talk about my son, but I have this conversation with my son all the time. It's not enough just to go to the field to pitch and drill. It's not enough to do that thing you do well. You have to find something that you do so well that no one can defend against it. And you have to find something so unique to complement it. And it can be the same thing or different, but you need at least two or three options. Taekwon is not not different. You have to have one thing that you do so well that no one can defend against it, and then you have to have a second thing that That's unique that no one understands it and they can't defend against it. If you look at some of the great fighters from Korea, and the one that comes to mind for everybody is Young Young Sum. This guy wasn't a Korean fighter. This guy was a freak. He was a guy that could jump. He was athletic. He should have been a circus performer. He took that, because he was short, and he was in the featherweight division. And he took that shortness and his athleticism and just said, why not? And in the United States, a guy like that was James Villasano. James Villasano was like, why not? Why not? And the best time that the best that I ever saw this guy fight, not James Villana, the other guy that I'll mention, is Mark Lopez. And love or hate Mark Lopez, he was willing to do stuff. Like he's like, you know, I can Nottabond and switch my feet and not a bond again, and they're not going to expect me to do it, so I'm going to do it. And why is it going to work? For the reason I just said, I don't expect you to try to do it. For the same reason that a goalie comes out of the goal and a guy on the other side of the field from, you know, three quarters on the other side of the field kicks the ball up over the goalie into the net. Why is it going to work? Because you don't expect me to do it. It's a dumb shot. And so if you can combine those things of being athletic, being creative, and being a risk taker, that's the right, right word. Then you're going to come up with unique athletes that transcend the system. What we have now are athletes that watch videos. And I watch them, by the way, because they come up on my TikTok feed and I comment all the time. Because TJ's right. You see guys, and they're trying to do stuff they can't do. They're not athletic enough, they don't have the right body size, they don't have whatever. You have guys out there trying to teach us as a system, and these are all one-offs, right? Like there's not a strategic system. Because in a weird way, you couldn't teach the taekwondo that we did or taught on TikTok. Because you need more than 15 seconds. It's not a one-off. You can't hop on your foot, cancel a leg, and kick. Taekwondo fit in pieces of strategic elements that made sense with each other. If A, then B, if B, then C, if D, maybe C or D, and if A. And you had to understand, and I'll give you guys this because you'll understand it. If I gave you both close tents and I round kick your kidney, I already know what the possibilities for your answer are. You already know what my possibilities count line calendars are. If you round kick the backside, you slide back and do potachgy, I can change that to step back kick. If you counter that and move to the side, I can take change that to step not a bond and take away your ability to step back and reverse pottachuggy on the other side. Now that what I just said here, these kids don't even understand anymore. They don't understand how those pieces fit. And they're just thinking, yeah, they you know what I mean? Like you, in your mind, you can already see it. So if I go like this and you go like this and I go like this, then if I do that, you take a check, step back, and potta chuggy. If I see you're gonna check, step back and potachuggy, I go step not upon. And I catch you in the middle of what you thought was gonna be your opportunity to potta chuggy. And that's a simple one. I'm not even talking like slide back up, I'll double-double, you know, whatever.
JuanBut that's what's funny about that, Young, is like it all has to be done in and that's fast. All those decisions have to be that's that's talking about like the like tech window IQ. Yes, that's when you said it's funny because when you said something about people had to be intelligent fighters back then, they had to they had to practice those drills over and over and over, singly, then how the progression works and how the progression works, and then you have to know is that guy gonna go rock, paper, scissors?
SPEAKER_00You had to know from his body when he moves, you had to know from the shoulder motion whether he's gonna do it or not do it. And sometimes you had to take a chance. It's it's predicting, it's the oot-loop, observe orient, decide act. It's predicting the second thing it is is knowing your opponent.
JuanKnowing your opponent's gonna bite.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you're the trick, you know, the thing that we never talk about here is we're all victims of habits, right? And um, if you understand how to create a habit in your opponent, then you'll understand how to win. That's all it is. Like soccer feints work the same way. Because if you go like this, you know that guy's gonna, if he steps his foot out, he's planting his foot to turn. So if he plants his foot to turn, you change directions, right? Well, you nutmeg him, you go through the center.
SPEAKER_01What up, son?
SPEAKER_00Oh, hello. Hello. So you got this is you got she said, What up, son? I know that's that's some random that's a good night. But um, anyway, with all that said, that's the sport intelligence. And my only dig on this the sport as we know it now is that's gone away. There's no way there's no connectivity between there's no connectivity.
JuanYeah, the best coaches and the best uh there's not many that could talk like that.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's a twelve. You know what it is though? It's like a trick. You go, and I'll give them this. I'm not gonna say, so if you say to somebody, lift your leg like you're gonna up all to the back side, put your leg down. Next time lift your leg and cut, kick, and then maybe lift your leg, touch like you're gonna cut and reverse round kick. That's the extent of the progression drill. It's always oriented on I do A, B, then I do C, or I do A, B, then I do C. The connectivity between what you do and what I do, and it being multi-tiered, mostly directional, is gone because there's no need for it. So when you lose, and the comment I made about the chest protector is important now for this reason. You don't need a heavy chest protector in Taekwondo anymore, because there's no heavy hits anymore. Because that's not what's scoring. You do need what they're doing now, which is learning how to put your foot on a chest protector and close the circuit.
SPEAKER_05I get I get pissed off when my guys don't kick heavy and hard. Like it there's the with the system, there's no point in telling them to kick light or hard. Like the system's gonna do what it wants to do anything.
SPEAKER_00I get I get I get I get I get angry if my guys go to taekwondo tournaments. I think they're wasting their time because nobody's doing taekwondo anymore.
JuanSo TJ, I know what you're saying. Like the the chess cards are so another topic. Chess cards are so bad. So you why would you kick it like this? You might as well kick it like this every single time. You might as well hit it flush, right? Why bother?
SPEAKER_00Why serve, why serve, why, why, why order pizza if they're serving chicken, right? Like if the chess protector is going to score this, and that's the chicken for love, then why you keep ordering pizza? If you know it's not, and by the way, if all it's doing is scoring this, like I was watching one of my kids fight in this tournament, my kids went to the Q to Q tip opener with something, and they they all won. And they and I would the one kid had a second round where he lost. I couldn't tell how he lost because I didn't see the other kid hit him. But the other kid had figured out whatever he can do with his foot to lift it to scrape the chest protector with a non-technique to get points. So the kid loses the second round, and I don't say anything because I'm just watching him like uh I don't understand that. And and that's the sad part of it now, is that there's no predict well, I don't want to say that. There is a predictability to what's gonna happen. But when we were fighting, there was a predictability that if you hit somebody hard enough and made a sound, a point was gonna go up on the board. Now, there was a more of a predictability in understanding that parameter had to be hard, had to make a sound, you had to key up, and then you had a chance of the point going up right now. I can't tell you right now, with any level of predictability, if I kick the guy hard, point's gonna go up. Or if I kick the guy correctly, point's gonna go up.
JuanNobody can. I mean, I we I would I would like to sit here and tell you I could, or TJ would say, but we see it. Do you play?
SPEAKER_00You played we all played we all played karate fighter. You played karate fighter when it was in the in the arcade. If you made the move that you for back hook kick, because I had learned it, it was this, this, and this. If you made that correctly, it would do a back hook kick. You can make it almost correctly, and it wouldn't backhook kick. You could do it and it would do an Autobahn, but there was about as much predictability in karate fighter, or with the exception of the drop-down and punch, that there is in Taekwondo today. You have no idea what's going to score. You just keep moving till it does score. You know, and then if it does score, I I mean, though I think maybe the sole exception is the head kicks. Because the head kicks have a proximity sensor. So, like if you lift your leg up in that proxy, huh?
JuanThey're just as bad. You don't even know then. No, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, and that's the thing. I'm gonna give Herb a little credit, man. He kind of came around there on the electronics. Well, maybe the headgears work. No, they don't work.
SPEAKER_00I can I can tell you one thing that is I can tell you one predictability that I know about the Olympic sport of taekwondo that I watch these days. Do you want to know what it is? I'll watch it for about 30 seconds and change the channel. I can't watch it. So I try to watch it, and you know, and Dr. Taper and I try to watch it. We don't watch it. By the way, but you guys don't watch it. You only watch it because you have to watch it.
JuanYes, young, and it's it's it's the truth. No, no, not too many old people like the old school guys like it. So I mean I get it and stuff like that.
SPEAKER_00I say old school because listen, there's not, and that's not to say there's not athleticism. So there's a sadness in my heart. There's a there's a sadness in my heart for athletes. So, you know, I get these digs from all the athletes and the athletes, you know, self-masturbatory friends who don't understand that the comment. I'm not commenting any particular athlete that has two initials in front of their name. I could kill less whether your name is Wigwamp, Ting Tong, Ping Ping, or Pong Pong. But I'm not commenting about them. I'm commenting about the sport. No, no, I'm commenting on the sport. I'm not commenting on the athlete because I feel sad for the athletes today, because they will never be challenged. They'll never really have a chance to challenge the ones that have athleticism and technique. Now, I will say this about the initial athletes. They wouldn't survive doing what they're doing now in a real taekwondo fight. Because as soon as they did the bullshit with the jump up in the air, hold their leg and hop and kick. I wish, I wish I prayed to baby Jesus that I could go back in time and watch an athlete hold his leg up and hop towards me. I would pray to baby Jesus that some asshole would do that too.
JuanI had this, I had some people come in the other day and they weren't very high level, but the kid was like fighting like old school. Like, and so I have a couple kids that okay, nowadays you step in, open stance, the kid steps in, everybody up falls on motion, scores a point, little cut, but this kid wasn't having it. He stepped in, whoosh and spin a hook kicked these guys and these kids are touching them. But he was like, I was I was looking at told my wife, I was like, this kid doesn't understand the point game, but he understands how to fight. Like he's he's hitting them in the clinch, he's hook, he's turning them, he's kicking them after they go and break them.
SPEAKER_00Let me like on that same thing though, think about that for a minute. I want and I want you to think about it for a second. If you had a situation where a guy lifts up his front leg and you know that if he touches your chest protector, he's gonna get a point or two, whatever you get for doing that. But you or I, or somebody knows how to back hook kick, back hook kicks. No, no, with a real back hook kick. I'm not talking about like now, if you I hit somebody in the in the arm and they have their leg lifted up, they're gonna fall to the floor. You can't survive a back hook kick of the power that I throw or you throw. If it hits you and you're on one leg, you go down. You may block it, but you're gonna fall on the floor. You lift your leg like that, and I kick you in the ass once with the kick that I can throw in your ass. You can't lift your leg again for the match.
JuanUh point deduction. Now listen, I'll I'll say that there's too many variables in that young like okay, maybe I can I maybe I touch your chest guard as you're spinning and you didn't think it scored, but it did. It literally went like that. But no, you get the point. No, you get no bundle. But but but again, you're the risk reward. Risk reward, right? I mean, it at the right time because you're gonna do that. What how many times are you gonna do that in a match? You're gonna be able to do that 10-15 times around?
SPEAKER_00You're not. Okay, let's so let's take the chest, leave the chest protectors on. I don't leave it all on and now put them in a gym to fight for three rounds. Who comes out of the three rounds?
JuanI I get it, I get it, I get it. I mean, I don't know, we're talking about the same things right now. Like, I get it. We're not, we're not because if you just go look at if you went into a gym, you're right. And your mentality against even if again, I put you in your heyday against this, you would just they would be tippy tapping, you would you you're right. You would be leg clashing, you'd be kicking them in the butt, you'd be punching a hole in their chest, you would kick them in the arms. You like they might score a thousand points on you on the chest protector that we'll never know if they would have scored, but you're probably gonna brutalize them, you know. But if you put electronics, they look at the scoreboard, and you probably again, you might be looking at a 20 to zero match because you I mean to the if they get to the end of the three rounds.
SPEAKER_05I think I missed the time of the predictability, like you guys said. Like I when you go to someone's backside, you know the pot of check, you'd be there, you know they could switch and go. I think that's what made us, like you said back when we did a little bit different, made it special. But now there's like you said, there's too many variables, too many variables. Like you could hold your leg up, it can scrape your side, it can hit you heavy in that score and go over your head, they they can get the clinch and monkey kick and wrap it around your back. There's just so much nonsense.
JuanIt's junk, it's junk. Yes, it's junk, it's like you flop your leg and you're right, clinch, and I can it's junk, it's not real fighting.
SPEAKER_05But you're purposely, and you're purposely kicking the same side as people. I think that's one of the biggest changes. You would never do that. Like you're not gonna be.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but Coach Moreno, go go back to go back to point, point. So and karate went through this. So when you look at a guy like Benny Ucrez or Dan Anderson, uh, and guys that fought back in the day when karate was karate. I mean, when they were like in their low stances and they were punching and kicking guys, then all of a sudden point karate came in. Like what what the now, if you watch point karate, and even when we were fighting, you watch point karate, and then all of respect to my my guys that do it because we know a lot of guys are really good at it, they have the same problem. Like the the the their point karate where they run at each other and blitz and they hold their fist out, and that's a point. The Japanese lost their minds over that. It's like you couldn't score. That was not a point, that's not a correct technique, it's not a full technique. So the karate people went through this and they never recovered. So point karate, even now, although they do let guys hit, I see guys get hit all the time with decent kicks, getting better. But um, so they went through it too. The question you have to, it's the fundamental question we always leave ourselves with is at the end of the day, what is it that you're trying to reward? What's the risk? And what are you willing to score in order to demonstrate the superiority of what you think your technique is or your style is? So, right now, if you want to tell me that what Taekwondo is doing in competition arena is showcasing what we're capable of, I'm gonna have to disagree. I don't think it's what we were, I don't think it's what I don't think the uphill climb that we were on and what we were headed towards, which was multi-stepping, interlocking techniques, answers and attacks for everything, and counterattacks. That boat, they took a left turn, went down the hill along with Cho and his bottle of Soulju, and it hasn't recovered. Karate, at least, there are guys that can kick now. And they actually kick with power and speed and drop guys with body shots and back hook kicks. And they're monkey kicks when they do something ridiculous. The guy's on the floor out unconscious.
JuanTrue.
SPEAKER_00Um, and that's the difference. So guys are getting hurt. But anyway, with all that said, that's just, you know, that's neither here nor there.
What The Sport Should Reward
SPEAKER_00It's just, I think we had you did a great job of which we have been talking about, you know, leaving the um leaving the critique of those around us for now to others and and focusing on what we can do to make the sport better. I think today's was conversation was a good understanding of that. And I think there'll be great takeaways for people if they listen to it. And I think intellect always works over, and I think your your comments on what are we doing when we're young athletes, they're they're disposable to them. They bring them up, they bring them to a junior's, they want to say they're like I looked at the resume of a particular US coach the other day. I almost threw up in my sock. I was like, that's your resume? What did you do? I you know, and then I I looked at the resume of the guy, the Korean they brought in, and I'm like, okay, that your resume is your resume is not even in the top 20 in Korea. So, you know, at the end of the day, what are we celebrating? You know, we should be celebrating the advent of the sport, the acceleration of the growth curve, and then you know, MMA has. You for whatever you want to say about MMA, one way or the other, the one thing you have to admit is where they started and where they are now, as far as technical acumen, has continued to climb. It hasn't anything nonsense, they took out. And it as it evolves, yeah, as it continues to evolve, yeah. There's nothing to say. All right. Well, we have beat this horse. TJ's got to get nappy time because he has an early shift at the Waffle House, I hear, tomorrow. And then you guys both have a camp you have to get to where you can get. I hope you can get like a little more time with that shirt and could turn it into a square rather than a triangle. So, you know.
JuanI got my shirts
Seminar Plans, Merch, And Sign-Off
Juancoming for the camp. I got hats.
SPEAKER_00So the one it says, Yeah. Check my own. I got shirts. I'm up in Tampa this weekend. I'm in Tampa doing a seminar. In Tampa? I'm in Tampa doing a seminar. How far is Tampa from here?
JuanFive hours. This guy's in Tampa. This guy's in Sarasota, Tampa area.
SPEAKER_00Is he down there now or is he gonna be with you?
JuanNo, no, he's gonna be in his place. I go to his place.
SPEAKER_00I'll have to give him a call. What's his name? Regis Lima. L-I-M-A-N. I I know of the name. I will definitely what do you guys think about this? I'm liking, I'm liking this uh outfit here. What do you think about it? Should this be my new outfit? Is that a woman's outfit? It's oh man, why you gotta say that? Don't be hating now.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it is that not a woman?
SPEAKER_00No, that's a man.
SPEAKER_05Oh, it's not coming in clear on my side. It's not coming in clear. I can't see it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, should I get that one with the fox? I'm getting old now, so I can I can wear whatever I want. All right, this has been the and for those of you that love us, we love you. Don't forget to get your t-shirts. We got uh we got a uh bunch of new t-shirts coming out, and and don't worry about us because we're sorry that you're sorry, but we're not sorry that you're sorry. Or as they say in Korean, Miyaneho, An Miyane No. Hey, my wife's taking Korean. Is she? Yeah, boy.
JuanYou better be gonna be she could be my secret squirrel spy, boy. She's gonna be what'd you say? What would you say? What'd you say? All right, guys, boys.
SPEAKER_00We're up.
SPEAKER_02Peace. We told you our advice would cost you, but you didn't listen. Wouldn't listen, wouldn't listen. You thought you could, no, you should, thought you would, but cooking for the same reason. A fish can't fly in a rock, don't die. You are genetically predisposed to lack of intellect to change or rearrange. Cause TikTok made you on the path to extinction like a dodo bird. You follow the others like lambs who were slaughtered like disciple to a mansion. So now it's time to rewind and offer the less fortunate the truth. We are here to help the needy, the wanting, the less fortunate with 15 second attention spans. Follow the warehouse plan and rise to the occasion. We got the profits of the future, public enemy number one. So all those with lesson, those listen, learn and stop the defeat. Cause only one team has winners and hasn't been beat.