The Inner Thoughts of 2 Unpaid Life Coaches, Pt. 1/2

On the latest episode of "Authenticated," Kate is joined by her creative touchstone, unpaid life coach, and dear friend Curtis J. Dunn. They leverage their different perspectives to understand and challenge each other on topics of present mindsets, the value of deep understanding, and the comedy of thinking deeply. Kate and Curtis tinker in their reflections on meeting at 18 and their individual evolutions since, while staying close. Their conversation explores the grey between balancing creative instincts with enough structured productivity to satisfy their additions to doing, the importance of staying present, and the joy of a friendship with deep understanding.

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Transcript

[00:00:00] 

Curtis Dunn: Are we doing posture? 

Kate McLeod: If you want to. We can Alexander our way all through this. 

Curtis Dunn: Not Alexander. Not already on the podcast talking about Alexander technique. 

Kate McLeod: Hey, we start by acting, friends. We're going to have to continue. Wow. 

Speaker: Welcome to the latest episode of Authenticated with your host, Kate McLeod. I am intrigued by people, people watching. I love people learning. That's where I'm insatiably curious. I'm interested in the why and how of the creative minds pattern of thinking. The subtext to the creative thinker or in its more conscious and malleable form, the creative conscious.

Because when you are so clear on yourself via the triad of consciousnesses, then you become reflective to others. Meeting yourself is an infectious practice because what feels good is infectious and something I think we could all use a good dose of. So join me in conversations with a diverse arsenal of creative thinkers, from artists to entrepreneurs, to serial thinkers ready to optimize their creative conscious with me.

Self-made and [00:01:00] self-proclaimed creative entrepreneur. Sounds hot, right? 

I.

Kate McLeod: Curtis J.

Dunn, welcome to the podcast. 

Curtis Dunn: Thank you, Kate Sutherlin McLeod. 

Kate McLeod: Ooh okay. Tell everyone about yourself. 

Curtis Dunn: What's there to know? I am, I mean 

Kate McLeod: everything. 

Curtis Dunn: I guess so. 

Kate McLeod: Yeah. 

Curtis Dunn: I'm from Connecticut. 

Kate McLeod: Huh. 

Curtis Dunn: And recently moved to New York. it's a return, a homecoming, as it were, because this happens to be the state where we met.

Low those many years ago 

Kate McLeod: 14 years ago Wow the friendship started at 13 years. 

Curtis Dunn: I'll just take a moment 

Kate McLeod: It took us a year 

Curtis Dunn: 14 years we met in acting school. Yeah, and since then have just found my way to being a Vagabond for hire, I'll do anything, artistic, creative, all those things.

I'm an educator, arts administrator, globetrotter, it's a whole lot. It's such a broad question. [00:02:00] Ask me a follow up. 

Kate McLeod: I'll knock 

Curtis Dunn: it out of the park. Ask me a follow up. 

Kate McLeod: ~No,~ I was gonna say, I think that it's so interesting that both you and I now have a multitude of titles, right?

Which is crazy, because when we met, we wanted one. Sure, yeah. We wanted to be actors. But we have all these titles, but it makes so much sense for both of us, and we both are in the age of reckoning into, acclimating into the new titles, but also, defining what those titles mean exactly for us.

it is interesting to think that there is, this cycle after a decade of vagabondness, for lack of a better term. But just going around figuring things out, gathering information, and then now, you and I are really putting our nose to the grindstone of, ~really~ making happen what it means to have all these different areas of expertise or interest or artistry and making them into something that supports our lives.

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the great sort of questions of my life has been revolving around that expression, a jack of all trades jack of all [00:03:00] trades, master of none. But then there's some people then argue that, oh, there's more to that. It's jack of all trades, master of none, better a master of none than a master of one, right?

And so I'm always going back and forth on, do I agree with that first statement without that sort of additional thing, Do I agree with the additional sort of idea of I'd rather not be a master at everything but do as much as possible, I think for both of us, we're quite maximalistic people, right?

So I think it would have been great to fall in love with a single thing and make that, you know, I, I'm an ice skater, and that is my thing, and I'm going to ice skate for my life, but instead I just, you know, there were so many options open, and I keep going down and exploring different [00:04:00] options, and I'm happy with that, you know?

Kate McLeod: yeah, well I think also like having a decade of both of us figuring it out, and just trying a bunch of different things, because I also, going back, I would call you a master of certain things. 

Curtis Dunn: Well, Thank you. 

Kate McLeod: You're welcome. ~But like, I,~ you've been interested in education, writing, being published, as long as I've known you.

You've always been interested in learning and expanding yourself. I mean, You were in the Honors College. 

Curtis Dunn: Hello. Adelphi's Honors College, first shout out on the podcast, perhaps any podcast. 

Kate McLeod: Perhaps any single one. ~But ~now at this time of solidifying more of what it is that we kind of have to like name what it is after we've gathered all this information.

What do you think the next steps are that you foresee for yourself? Even just in actions of trying, not necessarily committing to any bet. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah I guess, I, this year has been a little, um A lot. There's been a lot going on this year, right? And I think I went into this year with a certain plan of how this year was going to go.

And perhaps that's not the way it's going now. And so I'm in this [00:05:00] sort of pivot moment where it almost feels like That thing of the world is my oyster. . And so there are a million things I could do and I think a, I've decided, or , I'm actively trying . To stay much more in the moment with it all.

~Yeah.~ I think I am constantly somebody who is concerned about what's going to happen next, what the next thing is, what's the five year plan, what's the 10 year plan? What do I want? Where do I wanna see myself? And that has served me in certain ways, but I also look back and I think the best times in my life have been the times where that piece is quieted a little bit or shut down completely and I am just living life, right?

Day to day. And so when you ask, what's next for me? Sure, there are certain goals that I'm looking at or working toward. [00:06:00] You know, You mentioned writing. I have some, I have some specific goals for myself when it comes to my writing and when it comes to uh, you know, publishing, things like that.

However, I'm also not going to get too wrapped up in that because I just moved to Brooklyn. I want to enjoy, the beautiful spring in Brooklyn and so I'm just trying to take it, day by day rather than getting rigidly focused, dog with a bone energy on a single goal. 

Kate McLeod: Okay, let's go into the mind a little bit about intentional thoughts that you and I have had because we both talked about how our relationship actually means that we are part of each other's artistic process where you challenge me all the time.

To stay present. You're like, stop planning, stop thinking about what you're saying next. So, like, I'm actively like, talking to you now, trying so hard not to. 

Curtis Dunn: I know, and this is such a Yes. Such a test of these concepts, right? Yeah. To stay in the moment, not planning what's next, what's gonna sound good on a [00:07:00] podcast.

Kate McLeod: And see, and that's intentionally why I didn't bring my notebook this time because even though I operate ~that other,~ that way with people who I don't necessarily know as well when they come on the podcast with you, I was like no, this is the thing where if I cannot remember what I was going to say, that is for a reason.

That's because that thought has evolved and I have to catch up to the evolution of where we are in that thought next now. 

Curtis Dunn: And is there ever a time when we're talking when we don't have something to say? 

Kate McLeod: No. 

Curtis Dunn: So, uh, you know, for, For, I guess, context, this is what's so weird is you and I. Genuinely speak, truly, constantly, right?

So it almost feels to, obviously, there's now an audience listening to us, right? And it's I don't know how much context to give them on any of these things, because I know 100 percent about you, you know 100 percent about me, right? So I feel like I have to explain ~so we met at Adelphi University and, Yes, in 2011.~

Kate McLeod: Oh yeah, let's just do that. We met Adelphi University, 2011. We hated each other when we first met one another. We were quite annoyed at the other. A year later, I don't even know how it happened, but we, I think, saw each other. [00:08:00] 

Curtis Dunn: I think we started to respect one another. 

Kate McLeod: There you go. Yes. That is accurate.

We started to respect one another. We just became very good friends. And then even when you moved from New York, you went to Chicago, and then after Chicago when you went over to the UK, or no, you went to China, then you went over to the UK. Through all of that, you and I would talk on the phone for at least an hour once a week, maybe?

Curtis Dunn: ~It's been a slow development to what we do now, which is it's like a regular practice of ours. And, yeah, so I think for both of us, ~you're forgetting the time when we moved to London and lived in a closet together, you know. I did forget that. You know, These types of things we've gone through seasons in our relationship, right?

Um, And yeah, and I think throughout all of that, You and I have found a shorthand, I guess. yeah. And just a a sounding board for one another. Um, we've become that sort of, the first person that You, you need to tell something about like, to or about, right? And that's yeah, that's obviously developed over the course of, like you said, it hasn't, 14 years.

That's how long we've [00:09:00] known each other, you know? I 

Kate McLeod: know sometimes we encapsulate it as platonic soulmate, but I think also the respect matters so much in it because it's very hard to find someone who you respect so much or trust so much basically to be like, hey, can you hold up the mirror so I can see it really quick?

Can you like reflect back to me? Can you call me on it? Can you like see it before I'm gonna see it? Can you it's like the same way like for a self tape for an actor a lot of friends, like when you help them or clients, they'll be like, like, I actually am good at this. I'm like, I'm not saying that you're not good at it, but right now you're doing the job that you're supposed to do.

And normally when this all comes out to like a publishable, ~like~ actual asset, you have a producer, you have an editor, you have a director, you have all these people who help it all happen. So it would make sense that you would have someone next to you being like, you missed this beat, you're missing this dah, dah, dah, dah, pointing things out that your brain just doesn't have the capacity.

to do. And it kind of feels like that, where it's like, I'm going through a thought bubble, I'm going through a thought process, which obviously my own insecurities, my own whatever, is going to come up and sort of block certain things. But you're always the person who's 

like, uh uh, 

Curtis Dunn: I 

Kate McLeod: see [00:10:00] it. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, it's like an acting coach for life.

Which I recognize is just a life coach but I guess the difference is between you and I, we're not it's not like we're paying each other for these services, right? We're life coaches for one another, but with a deep understanding of kind of everything that goes with it, so I think you and I can call each other out on something based on The sort of long history that we have, right? I can notice something that's happening with you. And be like doesn't this remind you of, the way whatever happened 30 years ago, whatever. We have that context that, an actual life coach wouldn't have.

And I guess that's the joy of a relationship like this. 

Kate McLeod: Yes. And also because it's very between you and me constantly. And now, I think, maybe it's because you said it earlier, or maybe it's just because I'm Being hyper aware of it, but the fourth wall happening right now between our conversation.

It is so wild Because it's like we don't record our conversations. We don't [00:11:00] like, you know, I mean, I've recorded one of our conversations. Yeah, 

Curtis Dunn: crazily one time you were just like, hey, sorry, I've been recording for the past 15 minutes. Is that okay? Because I was brain blasting so 

Kate McLeod: hard, but you're the one who gave me the context that day when you were like you said, yeah, today is Wednesday, but today is your Saturday.

Because you don't operate on a Monday through Sunday or Monday through Friday schedule. Which, 

Curtis Dunn: for the record, I'm gonna cite my sources there. Please don't. That is based on, I was really into at that moment, Miranda July's book. All fours. Oh okay, okay. Uh, Which she constantly returns to this idea of every day is Tuesday.

Mm hmm. Um, It's this, ~you know,~ pop star that's traveling around and her assistant keeps saying well, for this pop star, every day is Tuesday. Meaning like, the idea is, ~you know,~ every day is a working day for this person. And I think it's both a, a good thing uh, in, in certain ways, but then also a negative, right?

You need, You need rest. And I think that's what's interesting, maybe, in the context of why we were talking about it with [00:12:00] you, was saying yes, every day is Tuesday. However, you have to remind yourself of that, that you've set up your life for every day to be Tuesday, and that's great and fine, but you also have to remind yourself that's not necessarily the best, most optimized way to work.

Kate McLeod: ~No, but~ it's also hard to define a work pattern or some sort of implementable, is that a word? Implementable? Implementable. Implementable. 

Curtis Dunn: I think. Yeah, 

Kate McLeod: I think it is. Makes sense to me. We'll 

Curtis Dunn: go with that. Anyways. 

Kate McLeod: Um, But some sort of like daily structure. I think it's because I have this like need sometimes to be like, Okay~ let me make~ Even though this is something I'm doing right now, I still need it to make sense to other people so I can explain it later.

And that's that forward thinking as opposed to the present thinking. Where it's like, instead of me just going, oh, Monday through Friday and let everyone know like, I have a job. I might be in the arts. I might be in creative entrepreneurship. I might be in any of these things. But like, I have I need my receipts to prove to other people that my Monday through Friday when like, really, I just think about my art like, literally constantly.

I'm [00:13:00] always thinking about creative thoughts. I'm always thinking about what I want to do and what I want to make and, like It's the 

Curtis Dunn: creative curse, right? It's the creative curse, yeah, 

Kate McLeod: but it is hard because Iand Iyou've really been instrumental, one of the people who's been very instrumental in this, for me to actually take a beat and be like no, no, no, this is a day that we don't work because I actually do need rest.

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, I think you and I both do that thing of, ~if I,~ what did I accomplish today? Right? ~And, and, And having to,~ I have to constantly be looking back on a day and reminding myself you did do this and that and the other thing you did get things done today, but I hold myself to these It's incredibly high standards of what should be done.

And then I feel so guilty when I feel like I'm not doing enough, right? And it's that I think that idea of every day is Tuesday makes that entire condition so much worse. And, And the, the, what you're saying about, being a creative person and working [00:14:00] in the arts, right? Like it makes that condition so much worse.

Because there aren't the normal boundaries, a banker's going to commute to work and go to work from nine to five and leave work and go home and not think about. Banking anymore. I don't know. Maybe that's a bad example. Maybe bankers go home and think about 

Kate McLeod: banking 

Curtis Dunn: I don't know 

Kate McLeod: Area of money they're in but the point 

Curtis Dunn: Is like you're saying, you can't shut your creative mind off 

Kate McLeod: No, 

Curtis Dunn: so even if you're setting boundaries for yourself that you know I'm only going to be working nine to five today.

That doesn't mean that you're not going to have a brilliant idea at 6 p. m. that you then need to get out. I I forget what I was watching, but somebody was like talking about being creative, but actually talking about it in the sense of. Creation, right? Create, they just need to go, oh, I remembered it now.

It was that documentary I was telling you about Porcelain War, [00:15:00] which is it takes place in Ukraine. And it's it's these artists. In Ukraine and they're saying, even in this war, even everything, we fundamentally cannot do anything except keep creating, because we are creative people, and I think that just I understood the word creative before that, but it just, reminded me that the root of that word is from to create.

Creative people have this natural inclination to be creating something. And I jokingly said, the creative curse or whatever. It is a blessing and a curse that we have this thing. We're constantly pumping things out, but it's also a part of our brain that. Sometimes it's really difficult to turn off.

Kate McLeod: It's also just, I think there has to be an acknowledgement there of just like, that's how my brain works. I'm just constantly creating. And then when we also have all these different routes of creation that we love, for you a million things, for me a million things, [00:16:00] it's like, okay, well if I leave one section of my brain and go to the other, it's still doing the same thing because the operation system is the same.

And like, so I've tried to, Recently I've been kind of trying on like trial and error, trying different days and structures where it's like I can break a day into quarters and be like here are my goals for the quarters or I just like the one thing I'm going to do today or I'm just going to do what I feel like today knowing the list of things that I have to do and then at the end of the day I will prove to myself what I did but I also don't want to get into a habit of like proving to myself.

I do want to get into a habit of structure that actually enhances the creation? 

Curtis Dunn: In getting to the root of, like, why any of that, right? You know, It's like, is this what Picasso did? 

Kate McLeod: Oh my god, definitely not. Definitely not. Not to compare 

Curtis Dunn: us to Picasso, but the point is trying to plan and forward plan is a way to just fend off the feelings of guilt that you haven't gotten enough done in a day, right?

~Yes. ~And instead of just waking up and [00:17:00] being a creative person, , right? Yeah. And that's, that is the constant push and pull of this, again, condition that we have, . 

I guess .

Kate McLeod: Yeah. so when you say that I hear the fear, which I know is inevitable for me, where it's not.

Matching up to my vision of how worthy I am or what I have to offer the world or not making the impact I want to. But I also think that Fear is just fear until you know the fear. So fear has like an unknown element to it. ~So it's just like,~ and we're not gonna know until we have achieved these goals. We aren't even gonna know what they look like until we're actually there.

And when we're there, we already have other ones. We've completely forgotten what these ones are supposed to look like. I think I can logically come to the conclusion where I say oh this is just fear and duh, but for some reason that habit still exists there. And it's just like hard to locate where that is sometimes for me to deconstruct it and then use it in a better way that's more valuable to me.

Curtis Dunn: Absolutely. Yeah, Yeah. And it's, it's that thing of we constantly, as human beings, [00:18:00] are living in our own behaviors, right? That we have learned how we're supposed to do these things consciously, subconsciously. You can really set intentions of this is how I want. to behave now, whatever it is.

And I think you get comfortable in those behaviors, whether or not it's the most conducive to the creative experience or whether or not it is the healthiest for you mentally. You know, Whatever it is. I think about. you saying breaking your day down into quarters and really planning out the day and it's like, well, I bet you're really productive there and I bet you get a lot done, but just because that's working, does that mean it's the most optimal?

And who's to say? Yeah. And how are we to know? And like, you know, and it's, it's all of those things. ~Um, Yeah. ~

Kate McLeod: ~Because~ I think that's ~a misplaced~ a misplacement of the energy of trying to [00:19:00] find an answer that's not answerable. It's just really just to live in the question as opposed to arrive to the answer, because the answer also means the end.

The end means death. And if this is like a perpetual evolution, if creation doesn't stop, because ~creation,~ everything that is created continues to live in some capacity. Nothing just like, ends, you know? ~Um, I mean, well, that's not. necessarily true, but you catch my drift. ~

Curtis Dunn: Well, I mean, It's the classic, you know, energy forever.

I don't know. Is that Einstein? Whatever. Like energy cannot, it has to go somewhere. It has to go somewhere. Energy can't just, yeah. 

Kate McLeod: ~So then it's ~I think about all these things that are a moot effort towards ~this answer that's not actually, or~ this question that's not actually answerable. So once I get comfortable with that, first acknowledging that energy is being misplaced, and then bringing it back to me just staying in the, Right here and in the creation and that really is, I think that's the brain gym for the creator is to constantly be coming back to how do we redirect the energy that we have and other directions to come forward into just right here, right now, what we are creating right now, but we're goal oriented.

So it's hard to do that 

Curtis Dunn: for us. Like that's, [00:20:00] That's the other thing I think in the context of this it's difficult for even me to be separating out when we're talking about you, we, versus you and we, the royal you, the royal we, right? Talking about all artists, all creatives, whatever it is.

You and I are very specific people that are very um, you know. I think both of us you're, you're a um, you love like, a science book. Oh, I 

Kate McLeod: love science. 

Curtis Dunn: I know, and and finances, ~and, you've got these very, analytical ~you've got a very analytical side of your brain. And I think similarly with me the, Apocryphal tale at this point of me ending up going to Adelphi is I applied to like, 14 schools. And, do you not know this? No, I 

Kate McLeod: know, I'm just surprised because I knew it was a lot, but 14 was the number of schools I applied to as well. 

Curtis Dunn: Wow. I just think 

Kate McLeod: that's funny.

Curtis Dunn: What do you call, a universal wink? Universal wink, 

Kate McLeod: [00:21:00] yeah. 

Curtis Dunn: Hey. But I think so with those 14 schools, about half of them were acting programs that I was, auditioning for or whatever. And the other half and, and I just said throughout all of this, wherever is going to be the cheapest for me to go, wherever gives me the most money, the most scholarship.

I was a good student in high school, so I applied to the 14 and half were acting programs. The other half, I was going to major in math. Which is just, I mean,

Kate McLeod: I adore that, 

Curtis Dunn: But, and I have to remind myself of these things that just because I ended up, getting a BFA in theater arts with a focus in acting, which is technically what our degree is, by the way, I know I still have this side of my brain that loves order and that loves when there's an answer that loves a riddle that can be solved.

And there's a balance there and I [00:22:00] think that's what we're circling here is that us as artists, like we are still artists and creative people and all of that, but we also have these sides of our brains that we have to feed, a very like little shop of horrors that there's, a plant that we have to feed which is our, Oh, sorry.

More sort of type A tendencies, okay, 

Kate McLeod: but question because the pattern that you're just talking about where you're like, hey So I had 14 schools 7 for acting 7 for math and it depended on who wasn't giving the most money What may what was a more feasible option for me to actually take like what would make more sense for me?

But there is an element in that pattern that you're talking about where you do love an answer you do love the you know What was it? You said a solve? A riddle? A riddle to solve. Yeah, absolutely. But some of that gives the answer away um, in two ways. So instead of you arriving to an answer on your own, one is to relinquish some of your power for someone else to make a decision on you.

So it seems like there is actually like a um, both sides [00:23:00] of balance where there is permission on both sides. Um, But then also to have someone make the decision for you because you do give up some of your power there because. You're saying, I need you to buy into this other side, as well as myself, so we are in agreement.

But you still do that pattern now, with moving, with looking for jobs. Oh, yes. Would it go into more of that? Tell me more about that. 

Curtis Dunn: Well, It's a condition. Yeah. 

Kate McLeod: I mean, No, it's uh, I, 

Curtis Dunn: it's, you know, it's something I'm working on in therapy.

But like, you should see me, the sort of mind games I play with myself in order to determine what I'm going to order at a restaurant. Like, It is, I have all of these rules about, first of all, I can narrow things down because I don't eat this type of meat or whatever. Okay, so now there are six options for me available.

And if any of those six have one of like my five go to if one has sweet potatoes, that's it. Okay, that has sweet potatoes. [00:24:00] That's the rule. I'm going to order whatever has sweet potatoes. And it's it's rule based thinking. Yeah. In order to make decisions rather than just saying what do I want?

Yeah. And that's always been the difficulty for me is I think defining what I want and what. You know, We open this conversation by you going well, what's next for you? You know, What do you want in your very like, gorgeous, fresh air NPR way? I, I don't. No, because it is clinically impossible for me to make a decision, right?

So, But I'm working on that. 

Kate McLeod: No, no, No, but I asked that question because I wanted to know if you had an answer today. Because whenever you tell me an answer, I've never, I've just learned that just, you know, whatever. Also, in our relationship, there's no ego. So it's like, even if you commit to something today and you don't do it tomorrow, you know I'm not going to be like well, you said.

Like, We've never been like that. 

Curtis Dunn: Sure, Sure. We hold each other accountable. Absolutely. But [00:25:00] not in a guilty way, right? Because we put enough guilt on ourselves already as individuals. Yes. Right? So, So you and I, I think we can keep each other accountable without Guilting the other oh, you said you were going to do this.

Are you still like working on that? Totally fine either way. Yeah, we're just checking in. Just wanted to see where you're at with that. I could probably go through, a Rolodex of things that you have told me you're going to do, or you're going to start doing that you probably don't even remember now.

Kate McLeod: 100%. 

Curtis Dunn: And me as well, right? I think there was an interesting sort of fork in my life recently where I really needed to figure out. What was next? Yeah. And thinking back on that now I ended up making a decision of what was next and what I was going to do. But I have six to ten options of what you could do.

Oh maybe I'll go into this industry and maybe I'll do a pivot to [00:26:00] this. Maybe I'll just I'll come get my headshots done, and I'm gonna get back on the audition trail. These are all things that you and I have talked about, and yet you haven't asked me a single time, being like, you still plan on getting your headshots done?

Well,

Kate McLeod: Because I heard you, and I just know that like, you'll do it when you're ready, and I also know that it's something that you're always going to be capable of doing. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah. You know, Cause this, 

Kate McLeod: that's not a time sensitive one. And I think I've realized recently, because I do have big ideas, but I think in the past my fear has actually kept me from realizing those ideas.

And so I've been afraid of failing and kind of like, I don't know what the switch was. Maybe you do, but I don't know what the switch was recently where I'm like, okay I don't really care because if I fail or if I succeed I'm getting information either way And that means I'm coming out better on the other end no matter what but like I've realized in my process recently That if I have an idea I need to act on it now I cannot sit and ruminate on it because by the time I'm done ruminating the plan feels stale, and I've already thought of a new idea.

So, I just need to move a little bit faster [00:27:00] in it expanding and taking action on my own ideas. I've noticed recently too, via 6'2 Productions, as I'm helping someone with their show, and producing the show, I am so fast for them. And it hit me a few weeks ago where I was like whoa, wait.

Why am I not this fast in executing the creative actions of my own thoughts? What the hell is happening? And so as I started to do it more more quickly, recently, especially as I'm developing these free thinking meditations, you were the one who were, you were like, stick with that. As soon as, and you had not told me about that idea in a hot, in a hot ass minute.

You were like, no, you stick with that, research that, find more, do that. 

Curtis Dunn: Would your audience disagree? Wouldn't you love to be guided through meditation by Kate Sutherlin McLeod? 

Kate McLeod: I love the way people think. And that's why, I think that's why you and I have so much fun talking because there's no ego, but you and I love knowing about like, well, why, why, why?

Mm. Yeah. More. What else is there? 

Curtis Dunn: Well, Even now. Like, you're, you're, You're talking and I'm constantly being like, okay like, I just [00:28:00] have like things that I want to kind of pull out from what you're saying. Oh, interrupt me. No, no, no, no, No. What I, What I mean though is like, I think you and I just bounce ideas back and forth in a very collegiate way, you said at one point in there, you said

um, No matter what happens, whether I fail or I succeed, I'm gathering evidence. And it's like, okay, but actually like, tell me more about what is failure and what is success. You know, Where are these concepts even coming from for you? And who's setting that bar? Because how on earth could you Anyway. No, I But you get what I'm saying, where there's constantly things, and I think that's when we have these very productive conversations, where we're sort of, um, like, forcing each other to stretch our brains a little bit around concepts that Maybe we haven't taken a moment to check ourselves on.

Kate McLeod: Yes, because before you [00:29:00] said that, I had a really interesting image in my head, which was just a reverberant space, where I'm like, Oh, okay, so when Curtis and I are together, oh, we just step into the reverberant space together. That's what we do. 

Curtis Dunn: But then,

Kate McLeod: then you just said that, and I'm like, Oh, but there's no bounds to the reverberant space that we step into.

It's not, It's not confined. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, and it's constantly like, grabbing those sounds out of the air, and uh, and, and, and, I mean, pity the fool who tries to, I'm so, I'm so worried about the audience right now, I'm like, are we doing the Kate and Curtis thing where genuinely, we're jumping around?

But that is how our conversations go, and then it's like 20 minutes from now, we'll be like So, um, approximately 20 minutes ago, you said this one thing, and let's just circle back to that idea. You know, We don't keep a notebook, like you're saying, but it's, it's one of those things, we have um, I think of it like those, um, Like, you know, the idea of like, the galaxies?

Yeah. You know, They're, like, these like, swirling masses. Oh, we just jump from one to one. And we're just [00:30:00] kind of jumping around different galaxies, trying our hand at, you know, different deep thinking, whatever. And neither one of us being necessarily philosophy majors, right? No. This is just us, 

Kate McLeod: just philosophy majors of our own making.

Yeah. of our own universes, of our own galaxies. Which I 

Curtis Dunn: guess we all can be, right? As human beings. 

Mm 

Kate McLeod: hmm. But see, also, you're a person who's like, cite your sources, cite your sources. And like, yes, absolutely. But I also think that there is space to take ownership of our knowledge base. It's like, we've lived, you know And it's just like, you can't say that knowledge hasn't been gained or expertise has not been acquired like, during that time.

Of course, there's so much room for more, but like, standing in your own positions is also like, quite valuable as well. 

Curtis Dunn: Absolutely. I think recently I've been um, sort of wrestling with the idea of I am, my most evolved self right now. Yes, 

Kate McLeod: biggest self to date is what I've been saying. Yeah well, and 

Curtis Dunn: it's, It's funny because I kind [00:31:00] of, I have to check myself constantly on this thing because it feels like And you can provide supporting evidence here every single year.

I'm like, whoa, this year is the best year of my life yet. 

Kate McLeod: Yes, every year is the best year 

Curtis Dunn: of our life yet. And, And it's I, I just think of myself as becoming better and better and better. Which, is right, you know, everyone should be doing that as human beings. I think that's what we all want to be doing.

But then I have to remember that, yes, as much as right now, I think I have so much wisdom and I think I've learned so much in my 31 years. Thank you for outing me there. No, I'm kidding. I was like, shut up, you don't actually care. But in my 31 years, I've learned however much. But I think 10 years from now, I'm going to be 41.

It'd be like, oh my god, remember that podcast I did with Kate where we were like acting like we knew so much? If only I knew then what I know now. But 

Kate McLeod: I [00:32:00] think there's also so much power in having ownership in knowing what you know now, but knowing that you're going to know So much more later and knowing that we are going to evolve out of this state of knowing, like the knowing, the state of knowing is perpetual it's, it's ever growing because you and I are like insatiably curious people.

You and I are information gatherers through and through always reading, always sending each other articles, like you and I have so many interests, it's impossible for us not to grow every single day. You know, We won't recognize ourselves, we don't even recognize ourselves a year ago from now.

You're the one who reminds me of that all the time. Whenever I get down on myself and I'm just like, Oh my God, I'm not doing anything. You're like, need I remind you? Where you were a year ago. It's hard. You 

Curtis Dunn: didn't even have bangs. 

Kate McLeod: I know. They're here for a time, not a long time. 

Curtis Dunn: No, absolutely. You know, we're, we're, We're creatures of constant evolution.

And I guess I'm pointing that out now just to say I'm not on some high horse here. I'm like, literally I, I, um. You know, as a [00:33:00] teacher, we often talk about different learning styles, right? And a lot of people are familiar with this, the idea of visual learners, auditory learners, you know, you hear through, or you learn through hearing, and kinesthetic learners, you learn from doing.

For me, I am a like an Oh, God, I almost said oral learner. I like a verbal learner. So for me, the way I learn something is to talk it out and talk it through. Even right now, this entire conversation we had, I don't actually know that anything I've said is fact. It is just me kind of trying to work through these things in my head.

Like, This is how I learn and I grow. So I'm like saying these things. It's as statements, but maybe, you know, five years from now I'll look back and be like that wasn't necessarily a fact, that's just what I knew to be true at the time, or what I was working through at the time, again, [00:34:00] verbally, on a microphone, for all the world to hear.

Kate McLeod: Well, I also don't think that you and I are people who, if someone says, oh, that's wrong, we don't take that as an insult, we don't take that as we don't get bruised from that. We go, oh, interesting, tell me why. You and I would meet that with curiosity, which is why I think it's easier to be, like, here.

And of course, we're not on high horses here, but it's like, it's easier for you and I to have an active conversation and to say well, let's sit, you know, this is what I, this is what I think right now. Because very easily, I could say, okay, but what if you thought this way? And then you'd be like, oh, yeah, I could do it that way.

Or if I say something, you're like, yeah, is that true? I'm like, mm. you know what I mean? Like, There's not 

Curtis Dunn: I I desperately want to be challenged. Like, At all times. Yeah, please, 

tell 

Kate McLeod: me ~Tell me I'm wrong, and tell me why.~ Tell me you don't agree with me, and tell me why. That, That's exciting to me. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, sometimes I'm afraid I um, I say things just to be challenged.

Like, Just to be provocative. And then nobody 

Kate McLeod: You're like, no one's playing with me. Yeah, Yeah, 

Curtis Dunn: and I'm like, wait, but I didn't actually mean that. Like, I didn't actually Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:35:00] Um, Yeah, and I'm, I'm constantly I wonder what that is, though. Like, Constantly wanting to be challenged, 

you know? 

Kate McLeod: Well, I think that's the other half.

I think that's the thing where, like You know you, you're not, you don't want to play the game by yourself. You want others to interact. I think that's just like a, your own kind of invitation. 

Curtis Dunn: Mmm. Yeah. I, I even do it like with You know, cultural hot takes, you know, a certain movie that everybody loves and then I'll be like well, I hate it and it's homophobic and then I'm like waiting for somebody to be like it's not really homophobic and I'm like well, and then, and then, okay, let's have a debate, but then nobody is picking up on my like, you know,

Kate McLeod: you're like, I'm planting these seeds and this the, the, the thing's not growing.

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. Um, Again, I'm like, Like, kind of doing it to be provocative. 

Kate McLeod: Mm hmm. 

Curtis Dunn: Right? Yeah. You know? Um, Yeah. 

Kate McLeod: But that's just seeking out more information. That's just being, like, interested. 

Curtis Dunn: Sure. Sure. [00:36:00] I, I think um, I am a deeply curious person, so I think I, I, I want thatwhen I say I'm being provocative or I'm, or I'm trying to challenge like, you know, poke someone into challenging me or something like that.

Mm hmm. But what it really is, is I think I'm trying to I have a perspective on something and I'm trying to hear other people's perspective on it, right? And that's what I'm trying to get out of it. 

Kate McLeod: ~I think that's why it's so interestingnot intersorry, I'm gonna take that back.~ I think what is so good about that is that is leaving room for other people, so it becomes a community thing.

But it's Actually, let me go back ~again.~ Hold on. Say what you just said again. 

Curtis Dunn: God, if only I could remember. I know. We 

Kate McLeod: do this thing where I like, I have an idea and then I get there and then it's it hasn't evolved enough for it to stay with me. 

Curtis Dunn: No, like the idea of, of, of like that challenge of being provocative in order Because I am curious.

about what other people think about something. Yeah, 

Kate McLeod: do you think there's a more direct way? 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, being like, what do you think about this? 

Kate McLeod: So why don't you do that instead? 

Curtis Dunn: Um, [00:37:00] Who knows? ~Yeah.~ Who knows? I think I do enough of that do. I do enough of that already. It's there are like different ways to go about getting to how a person feels about something.

I think if I went up to someone and I say, What did you think of this movie? They'd be like, it was good, right? Oh, I thought this performance was great. But if I go up to somebody and I say, did you find this movie homophobic? It's kind of, it's, again, it's that more provocative thing. 

Kate McLeod: And I think that actually cuts to the root of it more, which is, will you talk about this specific aspect of this movie with me?

And I, okay, now I remember what I was going to say earlier, which is, it's so important to me when I'm talking to someone, like you say well, I'm doing it to be provocative. My usual question to someone who I wouldn't know as well would be well, what does provocative mean to you? And in this like, in this context specifically, why is that the tool that you're using?

Because it's so important to understand the why behind it, where it's like, why, you know, because it's, I, it's like when someone's like, [00:38:00] oh, I'm just being devil's advocate. Okay, are you just being devil's advocate? Or are you trying, are you trying to seek something else out of this? Like, I think there's actually better verbiage for that to get you what you want faster.

Curtis Dunn: Yeah well, I can't, I can't say I'm not a devil's advocate. You know, like, That is like a constant thing for me. I'm a um, I'm a person that always wants to be able to see the other side of things. . Mm-hmm . I think, I think that's kind of what I'm getting at there. Yeah. Is that I might have a, a feeling about something, but I always want to be able to see the other side.

Kate McLeod: Yeah. 

Curtis Dunn: I don't know if that's the sort of academic sort of side of me where you have to have your arguments, but then you also have to know the arguments against what you're arguing. Yeah. You have to have a complete picture in order to. Do you get what I'm saying? You have, and so for me, when I'm playing devil's advocate, I'm trying to see the other side.

I'm I have a feeling about something. When I'm being provocative, I have a feeling [00:39:00] about something, but I'm trying to make sure that I understand the other side as well. Yeah. So that I can confirm that what I feel is correct. 

Kate McLeod: What does correct mean? 

Curtis Dunn: Well, That's true. There is yeah, yeah right, right, right.

Well,

Kate McLeod: because you've been the master for me recently of getting me to reallocate the energy instead of saying well, this is right and this is wrong. And you're like, you're like no, no, no. 

Curtis Dunn: Success or failure, like I was just saying. Exactly. 

Kate McLeod: It's like, see the other perspective. And I've, I've loved implementing that pattern into my day to day and my interactions with people and just like thinking, because it actually does give me so much more energy.

Because for me to say well, that's right or wrong for this person, then that's like kind of an end point. And there's, that's like,

Curtis Dunn: So 

Kate McLeod: I'd rather just redirect that energy towards me and like, what I, and double down what I really think, and then be opening, open to hearing other people's things, because right and wrong, I just don't think that's like, usually helpful.

Curtis Dunn: No. Right. No. I mean, Any sort of black and white [00:40:00] thinking is It just, it's not interesting. It's not, that is not the way the world works, even. You know, I think you and I have had conversations about, there are people that we could really dislike, dare I say, hate, or something along those lines. Yes. Uh Huh.

For context, I'm trying to be a better person at the moment, so I He's doing a really good job at it. I'm notI'm not hateful. Everyone's got good intentions, but that actually stems from somewhere, which is that, we can really dislike someone, and we can really hate someone, and there can be an absolute villain, but nobody walks around their own life thinking they're a villain.

No, even the villains 

Kate McLeod: don't, and that's what makes villains interesting, is that they don't do that, and I think it's better for me to seek understanding than to seek validation from right and wrong. Because even though people think black and white thinking is, some people might think that black and white thinking is the most efficient way of thinking.

It's not. The most efficient thing [00:41:00] continues to run. And so it's so instead of me saying, hey, how can I get more information so I can tell you that you're wrong? Why don't I just, for a second, Lend myself to you, figure out why you're thinking or why you're taking actions the way you are and be like, okay well, if that works for you, I can see the rationale behind it.

I can see the logic behind that. I don't have to implement it to my own life. I don't have to take it on as my own, but it is, I think that's more of an interesting use of my time and my energy to understand your perspective and realize that you did that out of your own rationale than for me to like find reasons to tell you that you're wrong so I can tell you that I'm right and you're going to walk away still thinking I'm an asshole.

Yeah. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah. Well, And isn't that really, you know, What your acting training has prepared you for, right? We, We play these different characters that nobody exists in a black and white world, right? There, there is gray area with every single character you play. No one's Or there should be. 

Kate McLeod: Well, Because there's no dimensionality if [00:42:00] it's only black and white involved.

Curtis Dunn: Yes. 

Kate McLeod: Dimensionality comes from having shadows, and shadows are not completely black. They, They would, in like a black and white world, they would be gray. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, I uh, There's I, I can't believe we're, like, getting to this. I do have a degree in Shakespeare, okay? And, and, And what, what, what, some Shakespeare characters, there, there are certain villains, right?

Who are just, I mean, there's no explanation for why they're so villainous. And some, even when there is an explanation, it's like, okay. You know, King Lear, there's a character called Edmund who like, is truly evil. One of the most evil characters in all of Shakespeare. And he says well, it's just because my dad likes my brother more than me.

And like, it's like, oh, okay. And that was one of my earliest [00:43:00] acting roles. And I had to like, figure out. Okay what, what does that actually look like, you know, it's not, it's not just my, my dad isn't, you know, you know, my dad, my dad likes my brother more than me, but what does that mean on a day to day level?

And I, I just started having so much empathy for this person who winds up like killing everyone or whatever, like he's so, he's so evil, purely evil. Um, And I, I, I think that sort of thing that Shakespeare was so interested in these, these characters that are super multidimensional. Yeah. That, to me, is the most fascinating kind of part of all of it.

Kate McLeod: Because you're interested in dimensional thinking. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah, sure. Yeah, absolutely. 

Kate McLeod: Yeah. That reminds me of this thought that I've had recently, which I mean, I've had this thought since I was a kid. I always thought that like, if I got that genie in a bottle, like three wishes, whatever I get forever, I've thought this.

[00:44:00] One of my wishes would be to be able to see literally, Behind someone else's eyes like, you can see me, you see me, I see you, you, you will never see behind, you will never get my perspective of the world. You will literally never be able to live behind my eyes, right? I'll never be able to live behind yours.

But I'm always very interested in like, the perspective of other people like, even down to like, the most tiny thing like, color. Like, We perceive color differently. And we all know that, right? But we all have a general understanding in the world like, a common language in which we can all relate to one another with.

But I've always been so fascinated where it's like, Oh, I just, man, I wish I could just see from another like, literally see from another vantage point. It'd be, It'd be fascinating. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess, like, Facebook's trying. 

Kate McLeod: Well, No. Sorry. But, But, 

Curtis Dunn: no, no, No. Again like, outside of, you know, actually like, wearing, you know, [00:45:00] Google glasses or whatever.

What you're saying is, you know, walking in somebody else's shoes, right? Literally. And there's no I think that desire is what drove us in the first place to go to acting school. Um, you know, and, And to do that like, I, and I find that with a lot of actors, they are just, they are people who are.

empathetically curious! You know, Who are who want to um, really get to know a person and, and, and. Yeah, let me see you. And why they tick and, and, and become a person. And you can never Fully do that with our current technology 

Kate McLeod: with our current technology. We'll see long life ahead of us But I mean like also I think that the the the opting into the mental gymnastics of that of wanting so badly to understand that I think it's also kind of like a beautiful gift to another person to be like, hey, can I see you?

I really genuinely want to understand. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah [00:46:00] um, my parents have a very special dog. Um, Who he, he was a rescue. And he is a little bit of a nightmare. He will absolutely, you know, eat anyone's kind of face off of them. He's scary. But, he's a sweet, sweet boy and he doesn't know Like he doesn't know and he does this thing where he gets so excited to be near you and he'll hop up and he's a big dog like a pretty big dog and he like tries to become you because he doesn't understand that we're like it.

Separate. Yeah. Like, Beings. And I don't know. I just, I just think about that sometimes. Like, He really wants to become you. That's kind of

Kate McLeod: like its own beautiful love language. Absolutely. 

Curtis Dunn: It's 

Kate McLeod: like when you're so in love with someone and you're just like, I, like I can't be close enough to you. Like, I can't, I can't convey to you how much I love you.

I can't like, I don't know how to [00:47:00] be closer and I'm trying so hard. And it's like, I think that, that it, and I, I. That's the first time I've put verbiage to it, but like, that's its own love language is seeking to understand other people. 

Curtis Dunn: Yeah. 

Kate McLeod: Yeah, and to go back to something that we said 20 minutes earlier.

Yes. 

Curtis Dunn: I knew it would happen. 

Kate McLeod: I think what's valuable about a willingness to be vulnerable and specific in a hyper specific situation like The way you and I are talking now and the way that we do talk. Having this fourth wall where we're inviting an audience to listen to a genuine conversation that you and I would be having in the kitchen over coffee in the morning.

Do you know what I mean? I think it's so hyper specific and because it's so hyper specific and it is honest, I think that it is so easy to have a, A choice in active or inactive listening to this and apply it to your own self. That's the whole point of podcasts, right? 

Curtis Dunn: Sure. Wait, 

Kate McLeod: what? 

Curtis Dunn: What?

Well, No, there are a lot of like, kind of not necessarily high minded podcasts. 

Kate McLeod: Well, No, of course. Okay, Okay. Yes, yes, Yes. Like, I listen 

Curtis Dunn: to a lot of stupid podcasts. [00:48:00] Well,

Kate McLeod: Okay, yes, but I mean That add absolutely 

Curtis Dunn: nothing to my life. Not one single thing. 

Kate McLeod: So then, fine. The point of like, category of podcasts like this is really to be, like, these hyper specific situations are going to be here.

Two specific people are going to be having a specific conversation that is very specific to themselves. Specific to the third power, apparently, as I just heard myself talk. But it's like, that's going to happen, and as you listen You're going to be thinking about yourself anyway because we always think about things in terms of ourselves because that's all we can because that's the knowledge we have because we can't be behind other people's eyes.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, And I guess it's, it's so, it feels so funny to be like, , we're trying to give you a glimpse into how our friendship and relationship work, but it is one of those things, like no one could actually be either one of us. No. And like you and I have found a way to speak to one another, but every person in this world has found that with somebody else, right?

Curtis Dunn: Yeah. Every, everyone um, I hope. Yeah well, [00:49:00] you can hope. Yeah, absolutely. Um, But I think it's a, um, the, the, the, hopefully what we're getting out of this right, is that somebody's being like, Oh, wow, I do that with my friend. And like, Oh, I just, I've never talked about that with this person. And Oh let's, let's like go down that road because it's that thing we were talking about surely not 20 minutes ago, probably an hour ago um, talking about, you know, being each other's life coach, but a life coach with.

So much context. uh, earlier like, you, you threw out like, platonic soulmate.

Yeah. Like, That idea. I actually, you know, you and I were talking about, that comes from a writing project. Yeah. That you and I, we never actually did, which we should get back to that. We will get back to it eventually. We're gonna circle back to that. No, we knew 

Kate McLeod: we were gonna circle back, but I think it's because we missed out on the time limit, because we were like, oh, this is a cool opportunity to do while you're still in Sheffield, and I'm in New York.

And then, And then life. 

Curtis Dunn: For sure. For sure. But we are getting back to that. We're gonna 

Kate McLeod: circle 

Curtis Dunn: back. 

[00:50:00] And that's the latest I'm honored to have been part of your thinking sphere today. Feel free to share, like, and subscribe on this platform or follow and participate on any of my social media platforms. If this practice intrigues you as much as it does me, then join us in the ME three community where we will work directly and you'll curate a mindful method of thinking to define your own creative conscious.

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