Creatives Who See Creatives w/ Erica Hart

In this episode of Authenticated, Kate McLeod sits down with award-winning casting director, producer, and writer Erica Hart for a vibrant, resonant conversation about presence, purpose, and the rhythm of creative expression.

Together, they trace Erica’s path—from casting student films at NYU to shaping major projects in TV, film, and now Broadway. Through candid reflection, Erica shares how she began trusting her instincts, speaking up in the room, and stepping fully into her voice—even when it meant challenging the systems she once looked up to.

This episode flows like a conversation between longtime collaborators. Kate and Erica explore what it means to hold authority gently but firmly, to honor the creative past without being defined by it, and to grow in community with people who’ve known you since your “little self.” Music, rhythm, and movement—threads from Erica’s musical + dancer’s heart—carry through the conversation, showing up in how she sees scenes, senses cadence, and casts characters.

They also hold space for a deeper inquiry: how do we reconcile the accessibility gap in the arts? What does it mean to pivot creatively with meaning when doors stay closed, and how can we reframe those moments as invitations to build new ones through our own artistic lens?

This conversation is a reminder: your younger self is still with you—and they’d be in awe of what you’re doing now. If you’ve ever felt the tension between structure and self-expression, or if you’re crafting your own creative blueprint, this one’s for you.

Erica Hart Insta

Erica Hart Website 

Authenticated All Access             

ME³        

Kate McLeod          

Transcript

Authenticated_EP18_Erica Hart_The Creative Who Sees the Creatives

Kate McLeod: [00:00:00] she had this one incredible line in it where this man says, I don't forgive him.

Kate McLeod: Mm-hmm. But I do understand him. Mm-hmm. And I was like, that is elite humanism to me. Mm-hmm. That is elite thinking. 

Kate McLeod: that's human enough. It's, it's just understanding. Yeah. You know, and I think 

Erica Hart: we've lost that along the way. Totally, I think it's harder. Oh, for sure. For sure. Yeah.

INTRO: Welcome to the latest episode of Authenticated with your host, Kate McLeod. I am intrigued by people, people watching. I love people learning. That's where I'm insatiably curious. I'm interested in the why and how of the creative minds pattern of thinking. The subtext to the creative thinker or in its more conscious and malleable form, the creative conscious.

Because when you are so clear on yourself via the triad of consciousnesses, then you become reflective to others. Meeting yourself is an infectious practice because what feels good is infectious and something I think we could all use a good dose of. So join me in conversations with a diverse arsenal of [00:01:00] creative thinkers, from artists to entrepreneurs, to serial thinkers ready to optimize their creative conscious with me.

Self-made and self-proclaimed creative entrepreneur. Sounds hot, right? I.

Kate McLeod: Welcome to the podcast, Erica Hart. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. It's so nice to like meet you in person. 

Kate McLeod: This is so nice. It's, 

Erica Hart: you know, the 2025, 

Erica Hart: you 

Erica Hart: know? Yeah. And I think even like just social media in general, when social media came out, it's like, wait, I know you, but I've never seen you in the 3D. Yeah. So, you know, that's, I think now the last five years, it's very much of like, I know you, but like we've never done this actually met.

Kate McLeod: Yeah, yeah. But your work that everyone talks about comes through like, so like even through virtual, it always came through. I had this interaction I think it was like last year or something, but someone who I, I knew just very well virtually. Mm-hmm. And then we met in person and it felt weird and I didn't know why.

Kate McLeod: And he said something about like, your body's amazing. 

Kate McLeod: Mm. And I was like, what did you just say to me? 

Kate McLeod: And he goes, I've never seen it. 

Speaker 3: Never seen it. I've [00:02:00] never seen it. Yeah. I love it. 

Kate McLeod: Yeah. I wanna like really quickly congratulate you on, I just saw that. You were named Top 25 Women to watch on Broadway.

Kate McLeod: Yeah. By the Women's Fund. 

Speaker: Yeah. That is 

Speaker 2: incredible. 

Erica Hart: Yeah. I, you know, I wasn't expecting that because, um, I'm very new to Broadway. Mm-hmm. I made my Broadway debut in 2021, and it was on Passover, which was the first show back. And then right after that was chicken and biscuits. And then I did Death of Salesman and Josh's African hair braiding.

Erica Hart: So I'm very new when it comes to Broadway. And to receive that honor, I was like, wait, me, me. And also what I've been saying to uplift casting, I think casting is one of the ones to be forgotten on list like these Yeah. You know, certain casting directors and just casting professionals are always overlooked.

Erica Hart: And so, um, I'm, I'm happy and grateful for myself, but also honored that that casting is, is on the list. 

Speaker 2: That there's like a new pattern. Exactly. An acknowledgement of that sector of the arts. Yes. I agree with you. I feel like [00:03:00] that actually has. Always been. Mm-hmm. Something that is quickly seen past, 'cause it's a part of the process and we're in a product driven 

Speaker: mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: Art form. 

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. I also think it's, we're the first ones along this very long journey and we're not on set, you know, we're not in the rehearsal room, we're not on stage during tech, you know, and so it's like, we got you here, right? Mm-hmm. But we're not present when everybody else is present. So I do think that goes along with it when you're seeing certain craft and departments every single day where you're not seeing us every single day because we're not, we're not on set.

Speaker: We're not there. Mm-hmm. So I think that that definitely goes into, into play. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's like your hand in the whole game. A hundred percent was Yeah. It's, it's lasting through the entire time. Yeah. It's like this was incredibly done Well. Yeah. 'cause you assembled the cast. Exactly. 

Speaker: And you know, usually when we start off, it's just the script.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. The director, you know, the playwright, if it's a play or a musical, um. It's, it's very intimate Yeah. [00:04:00] With that team, and then the team grows and we kind of go away. Um, so it's, it's interesting. Mm-hmm. It's an, it is an interesting pattern, as you say. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I will, I, I like seeing the world in patterns.

Speaker 2: Oh, I, I'm obsessed with patterns. Oh my God. Wait, me too. So obsessed. Yeah. It's my obsessed. It makes everything make sense. Yeah. And I think it's because I fell into the hole of loving fractals. 

Speaker: Mm. Come on, Matt. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: Come on. 

Speaker: Well, 

Speaker 2: I was like, there's the evidence, right? Yeah, sure. It's like 

Speaker: Exactly. I love woowoo just as much as an next person.

Speaker: A hundred percent. Give me a sage. Yes, a sage. A crystal. A lot. A crystal. 

Speaker 2: Oh 

Speaker: my 

Speaker 2: God, yes. 

Speaker: Gimme a recharge under a full moon. Yes. Give 

Speaker 2: me the 

Speaker: new moon. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. If, uh, mercury can get out of the microwave, that would be awesome. Yes. And I'm an Aries, so Yeah. It's doing Oh, it's for you. It's for me and against me at the same time.

Speaker: Yeah. But yes. Okay. It's a mess. We're, we're living. We're living and we're breathing, but we're breathing, but we're breathing again. And that's. You know, bare minimum. 

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. But [00:05:00] I love all of it rooted in science or a hundred percent logic too. Yeah. Where it's like, I'm not doing just this for the sake of doing it.

Speaker 2: I'm doing it because it does make sense. Yes. And also, patterns for me are so easy to identify because then I can correct them. Mm. Or be like, I love that, that worked. Let's do more of that. Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker: I, it's. It's like reading the script essentially. No, I, and I like when patterns change because then it's like, okay, what has changed for you to not have cream of wheat every morning?

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Speaker: What, why are we making this change? Yeah. You know, you always leave and take the eight 10 bus. Mm-hmm. Now you're taking the 8 45 bus. Why is that? Yes. Um, so yeah, I'm always interested in those, in those patterns. 'cause usually why we're breaking the pattern, that answer answers so much more than maybe you weren't even looking for, 

Speaker 2: or than you even realized yourself.

Speaker 2: Like, let someone else bring your awareness back to that. Yes. Because what, what from Cream of Wheat brought you to Steel Oats. Yes. 

Speaker: Raisin brand. 

Speaker 2: Yes. Raisin brand. Yeah. Yeah. What was the gateway there? What was the gateway there and 

Speaker: why did we stop? 

Speaker 2: [00:06:00] Yeah. And how are you different now? Mm-hmm. Is it for the better?

Speaker 2: Is it for the worst? Hello? I, yes. Great. We could go with this forever. New episode. Yes, 

Speaker: new episode. Next one pattern. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: Well, when I approached you for this episode, I was really intrigued by. How minds change, which is, this is the perfect second way into that. Mm-hmm. There we go. It's like, how do minds change?

Speaker 2: Especially when it comes to creativity, because an issue I have with like, like I don't work well for people. I work really well with people. Mm-hmm. And so when systems are in place and they're like, this is the system, this is how you do it. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: I'm like, well question the system because maybe you do need to go to steal oats from cream of wheat.

Speaker 2: Yeah. So like, look at the system. How has the system meant for the people who you actually asked to be a part of it? Mm-hmm. So you get a script as a casting director or as a producer. It depends on which hat you're wearing. You get a script. People have already put their artistry into it. It's, it's own creative hub on its own.

Speaker 2: You get it, you bring yourself to it. You have your own creative perception, you have your own lens of it. Then people come in and have their own ideas and these things [00:07:00] like change. So it's never what you initially think it is. I wanna talk to you about the ego in that and like what happens when your mind changes creatively.

Speaker: Yeah, no, I think first thing is you have to realize what arena you're in and who is in the arena with you. Because at the end of the day, I think a, big misconception is that casting has the final say. And like I said, this is a long journey tonight and then, you know, the sun rises. Um, and so just realized that we are the first step.

Speaker: Along this long journey and we don't have the final say. You know, and sometimes that is a pro and sometimes that is a con. And like you said, I too, like working with instead of for because I think filmmaking, theater making any type of making is a collaborative art. And that's what makes it, so one of the things that makes it so beautiful 

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, is that, you know, you need without, you know, one person, it all comes crumbling down from a PA to [00:08:00] the director. You need everybody for this ship to go. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, and so I think it's realizing the people that you are hopefully working with and what battles need to be fought and what battles that maybe you need to put in the back of your pocket.

Speaker: Um, it's like, am I really gonna fight for barista number seven right now when I know that I am gonna have to fight for this series regular. Okay. Maybe let one, let that pass. Yeah. And maybe hold on to that. Or if it is a. True collaboration. Mm-hmm. With a group of people that are open and, and ready and willing to hear opinions, then yeah, you can have those, those conversations.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. And maybe ask those questions. But I think the thing that excites me about casting is, like you said, you get the script, you get the breakdown, and it's written and everything is there. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker: I love when it's like, be specific, but keep an open mind. That's what I try to tell creatives because everything is subjective.

Speaker: Nothing of this is set, set in stone. Mm-hmm. We can edit, you know, we can rewrite, we can do all these [00:09:00] things. So you could have written a character a specific way, but I think one of the fun things about my job is like I can bring in three to four people who are that exact thing, but maybe I also ran three to four people who are a little bit left or right of that.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. So it's like when you see their tape or when you see them in person, you think, wow. Okay. I never knew my words can do that, or Wow, I never saw this character in that way. Mm-hmm. Or wow, you know, they're not great for this, but they're actually great for this other character down the line that no one has actually heard about, because it's been in my head this whole time, oh.

Speaker: Or Wow, this person would be great for a movie that I'm developing. You know? And so again, that's the beauty of art is that it's, it's ever evolving, especially television because it is an evolving medium. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I think that's, that's the beauty of the job is that there is that sense of play, or I do a lot of work in comedy.

Speaker: It's like, yeah, you've never seen them do a comedy before, but that's mainly because they haven't gotten the opportunity to do one. Yes. But I know they're funny. [00:10:00] Mm-hmm. I've, you know, been out with them or Yeah. I've met them once and they weren't having me laugh the whole night. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, then it's like, yeah, their resume doesn't have anything comedic, but they're a funny person.

Speaker: Let's just give it a girl. Yeah. Give it a try. 

Speaker 2: I love that so much. 'cause it, it means that your ability to people, for lack of a better term mm-hmm. Is so diverse. Mm-hmm. Where it's just like. If you keep an open mind, it actually gives you more answers. Yeah. Do you have a hard time conveying that to people that are on the other side of the table?

Speaker 3: Mm. 

Speaker 2: When you say other side of the table, what do you mean? Um, I mean by other side of the table, like in the front you would have the people coming in with ideas. Mm-hmm. And then the people behind other side of the table for me would be people signing off on the ideas. 

Speaker: Oh, interesting. You know, I think what I tell people, regardless of what medium, but especially television.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. There's so many people. You know, in front, behind Chacha, real smooth. Like it does, like there's so many people that have to approve Uhhuh, um, that for actors, I try to tell them that you gotta let go of the [00:11:00]them. What do they want? What do, what should I do for them? You gotta let that go. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Because for any one role, there could be 20 people that have to say yes. Mm-hmm. You know, and sometimes I feel like the waiter, 'cause it's like, okay, you want the chicken, you want the steak, you're a pescatarian, you're on a juice cleanse and you had a big breakfast and you don't want anything to eat. So water.

Speaker: You know, like, that's what we're gonna be doing today. Um, but yeah, I think it's a lot of psychology. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I tell people who wanna go into casting, take at least a psychology course, or listen to psychology podcast or like read a psychology article. Mm-hmm. Because sometimes it is not what you're saying, but how you're saying it.

Speaker: So if you're, you know, the, the showrunner and it's between two people. But I think actor A would actually be better. Maybe say, you know, so, and you're talking and you're like, well, this, and then this and this. And I'm like, well, what I'm hearing you say is that I think you, you, you're leaning more towards actor A, what do you think about that?

Speaker: And you put it on them. Yeah. And you're like, yeah, I, I [00:12:00] think you're right. I think I am leaning towards actor A. Mm-hmm. You know, versus, you know, sometimes it's like, well, actor A, actor B, it's great. Like, what do you like about actor A and what do you like about actor B? Yeah. And it's just conversations.

Speaker: And then, you know, sometimes it's showing more tapes. Sometimes it's bringing them back in. Sometimes it's having a meeting with them, you know, I just wanna meet them. Okay, let's, let's meet them. Yeah, let's bring them in. Let's a conversation. Let's make it happen. Um, so there, there, there are many tricks to the trade, and it's realizing who is the actual ringleader of the circus.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: And who. Do they actually listen to? Yeah. And sometimes it's nobody. They are the only one that listens to themselves. And sometimes it's like, oh, they listen to this producer and it's like, let's, let's, let's talk to that producer. Let's, how did, how did we get them on board so that that person can get that person on board?

Speaker: And then sometimes it is you. Mm-hmm. Sometimes it's like, listen, this is my first feature. I've never done this before. These big names are really interested in my script. I dunno what to do. And then you become. Like the [00:13:00]coach, you become the manager. Mm-hmm. You become this person, you know, so when you're talking about you wear a lot of hats, it's like, you know, there's a whole table of hats.

Speaker: It's like the Gutenberg, you know Sure. Wears just constantly like changing the hats. Um, but yeah, it, it, it's project by project, medium by medium, person by person. 

Speaker 2: And that is the healthiest approach too. So I find this a lot with creative consulting, where it's like, my power is listening. Hello? Because you know the answer and I know you do.

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: And my job here is to empower you to know that you know the answer. Yes. So when someone is saying, ah, I don't know, it's like, so what I'm hearing you say mm-hmm. For your example mm-hmm. Is that you're leaning towards actor A mm-hmm. So no one comes to you and says, I want you to make a decision for me.

Speaker 2: Oh. Because, no, no one's just. Someone else's decision for you mm-hmm. Is never gonna hit as hard as your own decision for yourself. Right. And so, and that's why it's so interesting to have actors who have really good opinions. Mm-hmm. That's why it's interesting to have anyone who has good opinions 'cause 

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I think that's, that's what choices are. Yes. When people are like, what? When you say big choices, big bold choices, it's your point of view, your opinion on the work. Yeah. And that needs to stand alone [00:14:00] on its own, you know, whatever it's standing on. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, it's, it's definitely confidence building for everybody.

Speaker: Yeah. You know, it's like, you are fine. You are gonna make the right decision. I am talking about woowoo, I am very much of the thought of like, every decision is right. Until it is wrong. 

Speaker 4: Yes. 

Speaker: You know, and there is no right or wrong. Mm-hmm. There's just a decision. There's just a way, you know, when, if you make a decision at 12 o'clock and you're like, it's, that's right.

Speaker: At 12 o'clock. Yeah. Maybe by 1201, it's like, oh, maybe I, maybe I should have thought about that a little bit, a little bit longer. Mm-hmm. But when he made that decision. That was the right decision. 

Speaker 2: But see, this is the buy-in to the evolution. Yeah. Right. Is knowing that things are gonna change. Yeah. Because I like, similar to you, I don't believe in success or failure.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. I just believe in information 

Speaker 4: there. It's, 

Speaker 2: and I'm just an information gatherer. Yeah. And it's like, okay, so I failed mm-hmm. Here, but actually it just means that that wasn't right for me. Yeah. It's not the right time. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, and it's that feeling evidence for me in that way is like when something hits mm-hmm.

Speaker 2: It hits, 

Speaker: it hits and it like vibrates and it stinks uhhuh and it's great. Yeah. But mm-hmm. [00:15:00] You learn from it. Yeah. So you're like, okay, that didn't really work out as as I thought it would. Or like you said, fail. But I agree. I don't believe in failures. Mm-hmm. I just believe in lessons. It's like, okay, I maybe shouldn't have crossed the street.

Speaker: You know, when there was that big puddle and I knew that a car was coming and it was gonna, okay. So now I know maybe if there's a big puddle, like go around that puddle. Yeah. Because we're, like you said, we're evolving and 

Speaker 2: you, you look at patterns. Mm-hmm. And you 

Speaker: learn 

Speaker 2: from it. Well this malleability of, of.

Speaker 2: Evolution that you're talking about or just receiving, really? Mm-hmm. Um, it makes me think of, I know that you have a dance history, right? Yeah. It makes me think of one. Your strength in nonverbal communication. Mm-hmm. And it also makes me think of. Listening to that vibration, listening to that movement of the other person.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Where it's not like, okay, I'm gonna go down here and go up. Okay. Like 

Speaker: you. Yeah. No, I tell actors all the time that I think one of the biggest things that people forget about is body language. Mm. And we realize, and we [00:16:00] forget that body language is a language. So a lot of my notes is like, activate the body.

Speaker: Like, what are you doing with your body to tell the story? Yeah. Sometimes when I'm looking at self tapes and I'm like, I don't know, I'll turn off the volume and I'll see if I can understand the story just via how they are sitting, how they're leaning, how they're looking at somebody. Yeah. You know, oh, you're touching your eye, uh, your ear, why you're touching your ear.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Like all of that is important. Maybe you're still Yeah. You know, there is power and stillness. Mm-hmm. You know, maybe you're not looking at that person when they're cussing you out. Maybe you're, or maybe you're dialing back in. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker: All of that goes into the choice. All of that goes into your opinion.

Speaker: Um, but yeah, I, I love movement. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: I love movement. It, it's, um. I always ask clients or people I'm talking to, really just, I'm curious in people's thoughts. I just love people. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. But it's like, what is your definition of that? Mm-hmm. Because we have English, which we're communicating via, but like you have your own interpretation of words.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. So it's like earlier you're like, what do you mean by your other side of the table? Mm-hmm. Which means that you're such an active listener. Mm-hmm. It is [00:17:00] just, it's that give and take. 'cause you listen to see where the opportunities are to like expand upon someone else's reality and then bring it closer to yours.

Speaker 2: And that's exciting. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker: Yeah. And that's, you know, ca I think casting is such an empathetic, or should be mm-hmm. An empathetic medium. Mm-hmm. You know, because we, I mean, I think the business is, is, is a business of many middle people. Yeah. You know, like, it's like we are the, the connection between the actor and the showrunner, but then we're also the connection between the showrunner and the studio.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. And, you know, sometimes of that, of that nature. And so I think what we do is just inherently empathetic. Mm-hmm. Because we are seeing many of these actors. For the first time. Maybe it's their first audition, maybe it's their first TV audition. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's their first theater audition. Maybe they just graduated from school.

Speaker: Maybe they took a time off because they were helping with their parent and now they wanna get back into it. Maybe they're venturing off into voiceover and they just wanna give it a try. You know, it's, it's such a vulnerable, um. [00:18:00] S state to perform, let alone something that is in draft a lot of the time, which is like auditioning.

Speaker: And to be there and to be listening, you know, when, when you are in person or even just watching a tape and being like, you know what, I think that does need an adjustment, and I do have time to give that adjustment, so let's give that adjustment. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, it's always so interesting to see directors, uh, or showrunners or just creatives, um, have their first casting session, especially actors who then create.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Because, you know, listening is still work. Like you, you and, and each actor that comes in is gonna come in with their different choices and their different opinions, and you have to be listening the whole time so that you can then give the adjustment to that specific thing. And it's so interesting when, when, you know, uh, uh, a director or.

Speaker: A creative comes in and they're like, oh, first day of auditions. And then to see them four hours later, they're like, I need a nap. This is so exhausting. Yeah. It's like, yeah. 'cause you're, you're present. Mm-hmm. You are, you are active. You might not be saying, [00:19:00] you know, things 24 7 out of this, this whole session, but you are listening and actively listening and giving e each person that a hundred percent for that 10 minutes, that 15 minutes.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's exhausting. And you're buying into that reality. You're switching lenses. Yeah. You're seeing behind someone else's eyes. Of course. That's exhausting. Yes. Being human is exhausting. Hello? Like chaos. 

Speaker: Yeah. It's a day. It is a day, a week, a month, a year. Chaos. Decade, millennium, whatever it may be. That is 

Speaker 2: why we're required to sleep.

Speaker: Yes. If we are our privileged enough to hit the pillow. You know what I mean? Like some days it's like, all right, I'll table this sleep for tomorrow. Uhhuh. Uhhuh. Yeah. But yeah, sleep is very important. I, um, and hydration, drink your water and 

Speaker 2: hydration, which I've underestimated. 

Speaker: Oh girl, we need you some water.

Speaker: You know, you need to get some water. But 

Speaker 2: then 30 happened and it was like, it was like, you underestimated this. Yeah. Wait until 35. Oh, can't wait. Every year I'm like, oh, this is the best year of my life. I got wiser. I love it. Yeah. And just like celebration. Yeah. And just, I always feel like I [00:20:00] hit my best self every single year.

Speaker 2: Hmm. That's beautiful. It's just, it's my, I just. I can't wait till the next. Yeah. You know, and I have big dreams and aspirations, and I feel like every year I just get closer. Mm-hmm. And so I'm always just like, 

Speaker: well, I mean that's, that's just natural. Yeah. Right. Like every, every day you get closer. Yeah.

Speaker: Because a day passes. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. And 

Speaker: once a day passes, literally you get closer to something. Yes. You know? Yeah. 

Speaker 2: I try to like, have goals, but I don't mm-hmm. Want to define how it looks along the way. A hundred percent. Hundred percent can be, that's what being present is. Yeah. Is being like, oh, and that's what it is.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'll recognize the patterns. Mm-hmm. And, you know, be like, okay, so this is working. And so when I have those moments of like lulls Yeah. I'm like, oh, okay. This is how I get back to my normal 

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: Stride. Mm-hmm. Um, what you were saying earlier kind of brought something up for me about vulnerability.

Speaker 2: When actors come in mm-hmm. Or when writers come in and have their scripts, or when directors come in and have their vision, any creative who comes in and has their idea, there is vulnerability in that. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: From your vantage point in the room. What is your perception of the [00:21:00] artistic like shame that people carry?

Speaker: Oh, the artistic shame. Just to get real deep, real quick. That's the title of my memoir. Um, the Artistic Shame. I think it's just pleasing, like I think we're just people pleasers. I think at the end of the day, because we are performing. To get something in return, whatever performing means for you. Yeah. You know, performing could be writing, performing could be, you know, saying words.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Performing, could be dancing, performing, could be, you know, uh, sending a group of selects to my director. You know, we're all performing in some way, shape or form. And so I think the artistic shame also, because the beauty and the beast of this business is that nothing is, um, concrete. Mm-hmm. There is no rubric, there is no syllabus, there is no, okay.

Speaker: If you study, you know, for X amount of years, then you will become an intern, and then you'll become a [00:22:00] resident, and then you'll become a doctor. One, you know, law associate, one year law associate, two year law, like there's no partner, like there's no trajectory. And that. And so I think because of that it becomes frustrating, but then it's also freeing.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Because, you know, Jessica Chastain always said, you know, you're only one thing away from the thing. Yeah. Always. Yeah. You know, every, all of us are just one thing away from the thing. Mm-hmm. To your point, moving in the right direction. And I think because of that, it, it's frustrating and I think comparison is the devil.

Speaker: We all are seeing what's to the left and to the right of us instead of looking forward. And we're human. That's human. Yeah. You know, regardless if you're like, oh, I don't compare myself, it's like. Probably you do at some point. Yeah. I mean, it's a safety mechanism for your brain. It's a safety mechanism, so, yeah.

Speaker: Um, so I think there's, there's just shame. And also, like I said, it's a very raw experience. You know, I also write, and I usually write from a very personal [00:23:00] perspective, and it's like, okay, this is very personal. Now I'm gonna share this. Even if I have one person read it. It's like, you are seeing a piece of me that is usually hidden, but is now on page Yeah.

Speaker: With words to follow. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, and it's like, will you like it? Like, are, are you gonna, are you gonna judge me for it? Are you going to make fun of me for it? Yeah. You know, and so I think that's just inherently human, but because we are artistic and we, because we are, uh, connected to the sensitive side, I think it's, an interesting way to put it. I'd never heard of the, the artistic shame in that way. Mm-hmm. But I think through shame there is also glory. And through glory there's also a celebration. Yeah. But through celebration there is also defeat. Um, and the Ying and the yang and all of the stuff that, it's a balance that we gotta go through.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: And the shame usually whenever I see it come up with someone, whether it's someone coaching or it's like just an artistic process or a creative consulting client, it's like, why is there shame there? Look there. Mm-hmm. There's energy there [00:24:00] that you're just misusing. Yeah. You know? 'cause when I was just straight acting, I fell into that pattern of like, well, I need someone else to co-sign on me.

Speaker 2: I need someone else to sign off. And I was like, man, that does not feel good. Yeah. And also, what does that practice actually mean? So then I moved to writing, then I moved to producing, then I moved to creative consulting and I start doing these other things where I'm like, okay, well I actually kind of don't want to be a part of the pattern that says that I know I'm talented, but I am valuable once someone else co-signs on me.

Speaker 2: Instead, I'm just gonna start practicing co-signing myself. And then that way I'm actually having a more educated ask or more, um, knowing ask when I say co-sign on me. Mm-hmm. Because I've practiced that so much for myself. Mm-hmm. And it, it feels normal to me where it wouldn't feel foreign to go in.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And then say, okay, so now can you, can you green light this? Yeah. 

Speaker: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: And that's the hard thing. It's 'cause like in this business, yes, you have a creative thing, but you do need green lights from other people to make it happen no matter what. Sure. 

Speaker: And more green lights along the way, you know, because it's such [00:25:00] a long 

Speaker 2: process.

Speaker 2: It's such a 

Speaker: long process. Even commercials, which I can be hired for a commercial in the morning and be cast by the end of the day like. That you still, you know, you gotta go to your fitting. Mm-hmm. Like that needs a green light on what you're gonna wear. You know, you gotta go to makeup, you gotta go hair like that needs a green light.

Speaker: Where are you gonna stand that needs a green light? Like, everything needs, we're good. Yeah. We're good. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, and then, you know, if you are the creative, it's like, okay, you wrote a script, great. It's not gonna stop there. No. You're gonna get notes from a di from your director. You're gonna get notes from your studio and network.

Speaker: If it's television, you're gonna get notes from the theater, you know? Mm-hmm. If it's, it's that you're gonna get notes from a producer regardless of what medium it is, and you're gonna get notes until, you know, opening night and maybe even, but after that, you know, so I think, yeah, 

Speaker 2: you gotta be open. You gotta be open.

Speaker 2: Well, well, which I think is good because mm-hmm. To, to have an end point of anything, right? Mm-hmm. I, I love constant evolution. Mm-hmm. Because it's constantly present too. So it's like the rewrites, if they are constantly happening, that just means that we're [00:26:00] acknowledging the fact that. Sure there's a fourth wall here.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, we are watching this, but it's also happening right now. And these are real people. Yeah. And these are real circumstances and real things. Mm-hmm. And so I, I like that evolution. Mm-hmm. But, okay. So for your, you guys, so you cast, you know, you get, say everyone green lights. Mm-hmm. Um, the cast list you have, do you often recognize the final product?

Speaker: That's hilarious. That's a good question. Yes and no. 

Speaker 2: Okay. 

Speaker: There are oftentimes where you audition, audition, audition, and the scene that was written was like the emotional scene. Mm-hmm. You know, like, this is, this is the top of the mountain. Mm-hmm. This is the thing that's gonna make everybody cry. And you workshop it, you, you call people back and everybody, like, we spent hours on, hours on, like bringing people in with a specific scene.

Speaker: And it's like, so important. And you watch it and it's just like this throwaway little something something, and it's like, oh, okay. Okay. Same [00:27:00] words, but different direction, you know, Uhhuh, it's just like all of this tear, all of this raw vulnerability thrown away. Yeah. You know? Um, so I think it's, it's familiar and it's recognizable because you have been on the journey.

Speaker: So you've seen this person audition if you went through an audition process. Mm-hmm. Um, you've read the script, so there is a shape to it that is recognizable, but maybe it's wearing a different hat or, you know, that that skirt has turned into a pant. Mm-hmm. Um, and you're like, oh, okay. Um, so that's why I try not to watch like, rough cuts.

Speaker: I try not to watch dailies. Okay. It's none of my business. Yeah. Fair. Um, and I just wait for the final product. Mm-hmm. Because that's. That's always exciting to see, and especially like when we're in community watching the final product. I think that's also interesting, um, that we're missing right now, you know?

Speaker: Yeah. Um, but to be in a theater, be it movie theater or, uh, [00:28:00] you know, a Broadway theater off Broadway, off, off, off Broadway, mm-hmm. Uh, theater and, um, experiencing it for the first time with the audience Yeah. I think is very fun for me. Um, whereas like, you know, the other crew members have experienced it through rehearsal, through tech, through that, or being on set and seeing that, that way.

Speaker: But for me it's like, I, I let you go and I let you fly, and now, you know, months later, sometimes years later. Mm-hmm. Here we are in a theater just watching what's. What's been happening? 

Speaker 2: Well, what is that like when you are a part of an audience? Yeah. Watching something, the final product. 'cause you're not watching along.

Speaker 2: You're like, you're, you're like, nuh. Yeah. I'm waiting until I see the final product. Yeah. Um, what is that like when you're watching that everyone around you is reacting? 'cause that's why I go to matinee. 'cause I love when people talk in the audience. Okay. 

Speaker: Okay. Well, it's interesting because Yeah. I am as it's, it's a double edged sword, I guess, or two sides of a coin where I know what happens because I've read the script.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. You know, and I've seen the pages if they're n pages that have come in and come [00:29:00] out. And so I know how it's gonna end. I know how I know, I know what's happening. Okay. Right from the beginning. So like, if you and I, you know, go to, you know, survival of the thickest mm-hmm. Premier just premiered. Um, I've read all the scripts, I cast it, I do it.

Speaker: So I know what's happening in each single episode, but I am watching it for the first time, just like you are watching it for the first time. Mm-hmm. But I have a little bit of an asterisk because I know just based off working on it Yeah. How the season is gonna look. Okay. But I don't know how it's gonna look.

Speaker: Yeah. In the sense of like, I haven't seen a cut, you know, I wasn't on set. So it is a weird situation of like, we are having a same experience and we are having a different experience. Mm-hmm. Because I've seen the playbook, so I know that the quarterback is gonna call a certain play. My boyfriend would be very happy that I'm using a football analogy right now.

Speaker: Hi Brett. Um, but yeah, so yeah, it's a, it is an experience that we're sharing because we are in community, but I know, I know where the laughs are gonna [00:30:00] come or some, and then sometimes I don't, sometimes there's a line and I'm like, oh, wow. Mm-hmm. That got a laugh. That's amazing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Or like flip side, it's like something dramatic and you're like, oh, oh, that got a laugh, you know?

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, it's, it's exciting 

Speaker 2: in, in that process of the creative evolution of the idea mm-hmm. That you're now watching the final product along with the other people. 'cause it's meant to be observed. It's not be watched. Mm-hmm. is there like. Aour involved in that when maybe you were kind of like stuck to some ideas that you're like, oh, this was like a really good idea.

Speaker 2: Or is there ever like a missed opportunity or like, 

Speaker: yeah, no, I, I try not to think about it that way because it's gone. It's gone. You know, if it's gone, it's gone. I mean, yeah, it's different with people, but, mm-hmm. Um, and we can get that. Um, but with the work, it's like if they decided to go with actor A and I wanted to go with actor B, but they decided to go with actor A, they show up to set, they do the work.

Speaker: Now it's on screen. I then am like, you know what? They went with actor A. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker: [00:31:00] They, whatever the universe needed for this actor to get this role, regardless of if I wanted actor B, that's who got the role. And so whatever I'm holding. That, that's, that's wasted energy on my part that I don't need. Because here it's, 

Speaker 2: see, this is why you're so capable of love for actors, because that's what people talk.

Speaker 2: Like when your name comes up, it's like, oh, she's so kind. Because you know what everyone's going through. Yes. You do the audition, you forget about it. Yes. You did your job. Did 

Speaker: my job, did my job. The check cleared hopefully did, hopefully it didn't bounce. Um, but, you know, and that's, that's what it is. And if, and guess what?

Speaker: Actor b, you'll probably get something twofold. You know, you'll probably get something bigger and better. There's so many actors. You know, I've been in the game not as long as a lot of my colleagues. Mm-hmm. I started casting, um, professionally in 2012 and I cast all through school. So since 2008 I've had casting mm-hmm.

Speaker: Around in my orbit. There's so many people that I could list that could not get arrested. Couldn't get [00:32:00]two people to say yes, let alone see them that are now winning Academy awards that are now prototypes. I always say like, you know, you were couldn't, it was like, oh no, no, no. And now years later it's like, well, how about so and so or someone's or so and so like, this person's like, you weren't checking for that person Uhhuh five years ago.

Speaker: Um, so yeah, I think I, again, back to our original discussion of like, what is for you is for you. Mm-hmm. And, if it's not, 

Speaker 2: then it's not. I think I needed time and space to grow up and out mm-hmm. In order to actually see that. Mm-hmm. because now when I'm seeing like friends and colleagues, which my 18-year-old self would be screaming to say that Yeah.

Speaker 2: It's like I go to a show, I know half the people. Yeah. I go, but I see it and I'm like, I know why you're here. Yes. Only you could do that. Only you could do that. Yeah. And I only you could do that. Only them. Yeah. And there is a reason. Yeah. And. I love too, following up on things I've auditioned for and I didn't get.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And I go and I see. 'cause it's not a, I could have, I hate. Right. You know, it's like the thing that your mom does, they're like, you would've done better. Yeah. I'm like, thank you, mom. That's reserved for her. That's that's only for her. Exactly. That's her job. Yeah. And, [00:33:00] but for me, I'm like, oh my gosh, I see it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: And it's cool to like see what you didn't see. Yeah. do you learn more when you're watching final products? Oh, a percent. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: I mean, you learned, you learn your past self learns from your future self all the time. Mm-hmm. again, like you were saying, one step, uh, in front, um, one step closer.

Speaker: But yeah, I, I learned so much of like, oh, that's what they meant. Oh, that's why. Oh, okay. Got it. Because a lot of the times we don't know the full pie. We just know a piece of the pie. Mm-hmm. You know, and it's like, oh, that's why you pick. Got it. Now I see. Now I see. Because, you know, if we're working on a pilot, you know, we rest in peace.

Speaker: But like working on a pilot, we don't know what the rest of the season's gonna look like. Mm-hmm. Or even if we're working on something that is a full series order, we don't know what season two is gonna bring. Yeah. You know, and so sometimes it takes a little bit or sometimes it's right then and there and it's like again, when you see [00:34:00] it final product, you see hair, you see makeup, you see clothing, you see lights, you see camera, you see action.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: You know, and sometimes you don't get to see the whole ju of that in the audition room. And sometimes you do. But I think, yeah, you learn a lot when you, when you watch anything, in 

Speaker 2: life mm-hmm. In your career where. How, if, you know, maybe it's always been a part of you, when did that ego shift change where you're like, okay, 

Speaker: cool.

Speaker: I think I've always had it, and correct me if I'm wrong, my lovely people. Um, but I think I've always had it. I'm, um, I'm a middle child, but me too, not in the sense of like, me, me, me. Don't forget about me. I'm very much of like, go with the flow. I'm very, you know, it's go with the flow, but where is the flow?

Speaker: What time is the flow and what do I need to wear for the flow? Everything else I don't care about, you know, I say I'm type B plus, um, oh my God. So yeah. So I don't need to know all, every single detail, but I need to know the pertinent anyway. Yeah. But to your question mm-hmm. I think my [00:35:00] happiest piece is when I get to connect people and when I can actually like, leave it like, oh, you all look good.

Speaker: Okay, bye. You know, I, I've never thought of. The ego in that way. I think, what drives me is myself, not others. and I wanna be better than I was yesterday. Mm-hmm. And the day before and the day before that. But that has nothing to do with you. That has nothing to do with you. Yeah. That has nothing, that has everything to do with me.

Speaker: and I wanna bring people along for the ride. Mm-hmm. Because if I'm having a good time, I don't wanna be the only one having a good time. Yeah. I want everybody else to have a good time with me. Um, so yeah, I think it's always been there and I'm very much of an empath. Um, I'm very much of someone who, everybody comes from me to listen.

Speaker: 'cause I am a good listener. I would rather not speak, even though I am here on a podcast, I would rather not speak. Um, and uh, I would rather just listen. Mm-hmm. You know? Um, so I think it's, it's just a superpower. 

Speaker 2: It is a superpower. 'cause on this, from my vantage point over here, it doesn't sound [00:36:00] competitive at all.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And I think, you know. a healthy bit of competitive nature is, of course. Right. Right. Yeah. But like from over here, I'm just kind of like, oh, but that just sounds like your secret momentum mm-hmm. Just like something that's like innate for you. Mm-hmm. So you've always just been like that.

Speaker: Yeah. 

Speaker 4: Yeah, 

Speaker: yeah. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: It's weird that No, it's not weird. 

Speaker: Yeah. It's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I, you know, we've been through a lot. Oh, wow. You know, we've seen a lot, you know, we've dealt with a lot. Oh yeah. We've, we've, we've, you know, um, so I think, you know, you, you, you pick up the, the breadcrumbs along the way.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. You put them in your, your, your satchel. Yeah. Um, but I think, yeah, it's, it's just realizing I try to always, if I'm having a problem with someone mm-hmm. I try to always stop and I'm like, Erica, wait a second. Go to their shoes, be in their shoes for two seconds and see where they're coming from. And a lot is.

Speaker: Illuminated from that. Yeah. It's like, oh, right, I forgot that X, Y, and Z. I forgot they're going through this. I forgot that this just happened to them. Mm-hmm. So that's probably why they're [00:37:00] acting like this. It has nothing to do with me. It has, they are reacting instead of responding. Yes. You know? Um. And so I think, you know, just based off of the people that I have dealt with along the way mm-hmm.

Speaker: Um, I try to give as much grace as possible. Yeah. I know that's a very buzzy word right now. Mm-hmm. But I think what grace means, to your point, what we were talking about, uh, understanding and listening and just being like, you know what, I have never and will never walk in your shoes. We are all humans trying to get through the day.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. How you get through the day and how I get through the day. Hopefully it does not clash. Yeah. But most of the time, if it is clashing, it honestly probably does, has nothing to do with me. It just has to do with something that you are reacting to. Yes. And let me just sit and not react because then we're both reacting and we're not listening or responding Yeah.

Speaker: To anything that's happening. 

Speaker 2: And then you have everyone involved just making it about themselves. Perfect. And then there's no space in the middle for the gray Yeah. For the limbo for anyone to be like, I understand. Yeah. And you know, this. [00:38:00] As a fellow middle child too. It's like, it's like when someone's like, wow, you're so observant.

Speaker 2: I'm like, thank you so much. Drama. Thank 

Speaker: you so much. Trauma. No. When everyone's like, you're so funny. I am like, Ooh, trauma and damage trench. It's a 

Speaker 2: good little marriage. It's the spicy scene. It's the, yeah, yeah. The understanding for me is the elite form of thinking, elite form of human in, and it's, it's not, um.

Speaker 2: The right and the wrong always gets me. 

Speaker: There's not, I just, I think, you know, of course there, there are wrong things. Yes, yes, yes. You know, there are very wrong things. Mm-hmm. But I think when it comes to artistic vision, like all of that, the stuff that we are in. Mm-hmm. There is no right and there's no wrong because at the end of the day, it's gonna take many a shape.

Speaker: Yes. And at the end of the day, you're gonna say it on set, you're gonna take three takes, and then editor's gonna pick the best one. And then the directors come and come in and say like, I'll actually use that other take. And then it's gonna go into the assembly. And actually let's do the second take that we didn't even think about.

Speaker: Yeah. You know? And so nothing is right, [00:39:00] nothing is wrong. It's just the thing. Yeah. 

Speaker 2: But being open in that way is so pertinent. Yeah. Because you have a great idea. I have a great idea. But there is an unknown idea that we haven't realized yet that happens. That we put ours together and then go forward. And that one sounds very exciting 'cause it's something neither of us thought about before.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. But it has parts of us. Mm-hmm. And I love that. Mm-hmm. One question I do have for you is, in your words, what do you assume someone who hires you knows about you? 

Speaker: Nothing. Nothing. 'cause if they knew anything about me, they'd be like, what? Um, no. I think, oh, that's such a beautiful question. Um, I think if someone who hires me knows that I'm a hard worker okay.

Speaker: Knows that I am not going to leave anybody astray, knows that I'm not going to finish until it is feeling done and we feel that it's done. Yeah. You know? I think my work ethic has, [00:40:00] is probably the thing that has spread throughout conversations. I think I, I work, I work hard. Yeah. Um, and, and you know, I think there's, Some good obviously from that. And I think there is some, like, you gotta get it, you gotta get it, you gotta get it. And it's like, okay, maybe, maybe work harder than smarter. But then I think, you know, sometimes you do need to work harder, you know, and figure out how, how to go through this journey. Um, so I think, yeah, I think my work ethic is probably the thing that most people know from that.

Speaker: And then they get to know me as, as the days go on. 

Speaker 2: How long did it take you to say firmly in your shoes that you're a hard worker and believe it? Kindergarten, like, yeah. No, but I think 

Speaker: how I was raised. Okay. You know, my dad always let us know that like, uh, enough is not enough. You know, like you have to be two times as good as someone else.

Speaker: Like this is kindergarten, you know, he has a famous saying of don't get ready, be ready. [00:41:00] Yeah. You know, so, coming from the family that I come from is, it's very. You are gonna finish, you're gonna finish on time and you're gonna do it well. 

Speaker 2: Okay. 

Speaker: Um, so there's no, there's no margin for that. 

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, but yeah, I, I was always someone who I, I always say I was good at school. 

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm. You know, 

Speaker: I was always, I, and I didn't really understand people that unless they had a learning disability or something. Yeah. Those that just didn't get bs. Like, I didn't understand like, if you just listen and you do the work, and you do the work based off what you were listening with.

Speaker: You could get a, at least a B, let alone an A. Yeah. You know? Um, so yeah, I was a straight A student all through high school and college and things like that. Congratulations. Thank you. Not easy. It's not easy. No, but I, I was good at school because again, if you give me an assignment, I'm gonna do it. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: And I'm gonna do it to the best of my ability. Yeah. And if there is a test, I'm gonna study for it, because that's what you need to do for a test. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, and regardless if I get an A or a B, like whatever it is, but I'm gonna study and I'm gonna do my [00:42:00]best to, to solve this problem. Yeah. With 

Speaker 2: that 

Speaker: is 

Speaker 2: at hand.

Speaker 2: Within that structure, did you ever have a hard time receiving the new information, making it your own and then putting it to use? 

Speaker: Yes. Mm-hmm. Yes. I think it's, back to the shame question, it's the, um. The freedom to make it my own. And it's the freedom to ask or to say, you know, this actually doesn't work.

Speaker: Well, I think that actually came, I think the, I I do remember the first time where I kind of bucked up against authority to be like, I think you're doing it this wrong. Like, I think there, there's, I remember doing that. Um, I think it was like, I think it was like 2016. Mm-hmm. When I was 26. I think that was kind of the first time where it's like, okay, I, I think I have big girl pants on.

Speaker: I think I have big girl shoes on. Yeah. I think I have this blazer on. I think, I think I can make these decisions. I, you know, you, you think you're doing something that works, but I think there's a better way to get into it. That, again, like you're saying, you have an [00:43:00] idea. I have an idea. And the idea in the middle.

Speaker: Is probably the best way to go forward. Yeah. Um, for this specific project. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. And 

Speaker: I do remember being like, okay, I think I, I think I'm gonna speak up. 'cause I think another thing with me is like, I don't almost say ish. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but that was kind of the first time. And now, you know, 10, close to 10 years later, it is easier for me to just say my piece.

Speaker: Yeah. If, if things just don't feel efficient or if things don't feel like, this is the best foot forward mm-hmm. To, for this specific project or whatever it may be. 

Speaker 2: Yeah. I, I feel like people who are creative mm-hmm. Always have from a young age that like voice in them. Even if they listen to it or not.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. It's always there. Mm-hmm. And it's always talking to them and like kind of collaborating with them as life happens around them. Yeah. To be like, I don't like this. Yeah. Like, we're gonna do this. But like, I don't really think I, yeah. This is not 

Speaker: the thing. And I've been very lucky that not only do I have people beside me being like, [00:44:00] ah, that's crazy.

Speaker: Aren't you good? Like, you know, but, but also mentors to like, be like, Erica, what do you think? And I was like, is there another Erica? Yeah. You talking about me? I was like, yes. What do I think? Yeah. Okay. Uh, and that's why I always say, regardless of what, if you're an intern, you're an assistant, you're an associate, you're a coordinator, whatever it is.

Speaker: If someone's like, Hey, if Stacey, what do you think? You, you gotta be ready. Mm-hmm. They're calling you out. You could be in a room of 50 people. Yeah. And someone's looking at you the whole time being like, you know what? I wonder what she thinks. Hey, what do you think? Yeah. You know. 

Speaker 2: Have an answer for me.

Speaker 2: That's when life got interesting. Yeah. That's when art got interesting. Yeah, because I, if, if I had a catchphrase as a superhero, it would be like, what are you thinking about to thinking about? Yeah. Because when someone makes a face, I'm like, oh, I see a lot in there. What are you thinking about? Body language?

Speaker 2: Yeah. But then never did I ask myself until. I think 26 is actually a year of reckoning. I don't know why. Oh yeah. 

Speaker: I think I said it was 26 or 27 the year that I actually opened my eyes. Okay. I think it's one of the, I did a Facebook status about it, but like at the end of 2016 or the 20 17 0, 20 16 was realizing [00:45:00] stuff.

Speaker: Yes. Okay. 'cause that was fun. Um, but yeah, no, for sure. But I think once you get over the hump of your mid twenties and then you get it to the late, mid twenties mm-hmm. It's sort of just like, oh, I can stretch a little bit. Yeah. Like, I can, I can groove a little bit. Like I can, I can play a little bit, you know, Uhhuh, it's like you're, because obviously you're not being seen as a kid anymore.

Speaker: You know, you're not 21 just outta school. You're not 22 outta school. 23 everybody hates. Yeah. Like, you know, it's, it's, no one likes you when you're 23. No one likes you when you're 23. Um, but yeah, as you get older, stepping to, to the, to that, it's. I, I 

Speaker 2: can flex. I don't know why it was that age, but I was talking to someone recently who just is going through that at the time and I was like 26 for some reason.

Speaker 2: I don't know energetically why, but that is the age when we rip it all off. 'cause that's what I did at 26. I ended a five year long relationship, moved into the city out of Brooklyn. Um, was getting my master's at the new school. Okay. Um, and it just was like this time where I was like, oh.

Speaker 2: And then it also coincided with, becoming YouTube University because of the pandemic. [00:46:00] Right. And everyone was not doing well solo. And then I was this one person who was actually thriving where I was like. Wait, I get to produce in my own. 'cause I lived alone. I had that like privilege of doing that, so I just made an entire green screen on one wall and just play blues clues for a year, you know?

Speaker 2: That's 

Speaker: could do. You can too. Yeah. And like I'll 

Speaker 2: learn to edit and I'll just like learn to expand myself in other ways because I just don't wanna sit and wait and be the waiting person. I wanna be the person who's actively thinking. Yeah. And who's like, well, what's next? What's next? And who can I bring with me?

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's exciting to me is like that, creating that evolution and momentum. But like with your community and you talk about community. Yeah. And that is what so much of art is. Hundred 

Speaker 3: percent. 

Speaker 2: Which is why, like, I'm curious about your thoughts on this too very expensive theater.

Speaker 2: Very expensive theater. Do you have any thoughts on that? In what capacity? Um, in the capacity of, well, I'll give you my context on it first is, um, there have been shows that have been so expensive I have not been able to go to Sure. As most people cannot. Sure. To [00:47:00] me, the spirit of theater. Acknowledging the Peoplehood is acknowledging the community.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And when something as beautiful as theater becomes inaccessible 

Speaker 3: mm-hmm. 

Speaker 2: It makes me sad. 'cause it makes me think. Think it's something else. Yeah. So I feel like it should be called something else. 

Speaker: Mm. I believe that. I think there's also the thought process of, if you can't see that show because it's expensive, there's a show coupled blocks down the way Oh yeah.

Speaker: That you can see. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: You know, that could be the next big thing. Or could have the next big thing in the cast, or the director will be the next big thing, you know? Yes. It's like take rent. You know, that started this and like now here we are. Mm-hmm. You know, we don't have, we wouldn't have a lot of the shows that we see now, chorus Line and that, to your point, those shows were so accessible to the masses, but I think now more than ever, and what we have seen in the last five years is we just have to be creative.

Speaker: We have to be creative. Mm-hmm. We have to be the ones to be like, yeah, okay. That show is there, there's nothing I can do to change that. No. [00:48:00] Unless I sell a kidney or two, both of them, um, know we'll in, we'll in, I'll take a seat, um, and watch this show. Um, you know, but like, I, I can't change that box. I can't change the price of their ticket.

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. What 

Speaker: I can do though is see if there's another show that I can afford and go see and support that. Or even better, if there's a friend that's putting on a reading, go support them. Yeah. You know, and support doesn't have to cost money. If they have a flyer post it, tell people about it. Um, so I think.

Speaker: There's nothing for me to think about. Yeah. Because it's here and obviously it's not going just based going anywhere, just based off the season that we have and the season that is coming up. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Um, I think it's just where do you fit in it? Yeah. And where do you, and how do you wanna experience art and where you want to experience art.

Speaker: And we are very lucky that we live in New York City mm-hmm. Where we can experience art that costs thousands of dollars and that costs no dollars. Yeah. Um, I think that's, that's on you. You are the conductor of that. [00:49:00]

Speaker 2: Okay. And that's, that's great. 'cause that's accepting the information and redirecting. I'm not gonna stand there and pound on the door.

Speaker 2: That's not gonna open for me. It's not gonna open for you. I'm not begging anyone. 

Speaker: Heck no. 

Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. What you say is reallocate. Yeah. So it's like reallocate the energy, reallocate the 

Speaker: resources. Yeah. Or if you really wanna see that show mm-hmm. And you are pounding on that door and that's not gonna get in.

Speaker: It's like, okay, how can I, can I volunteer? You know, can I, uh, how do I get in this building? Yeah. Because I, for some reason, you really, really wanna get into that building. That's totally fine. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: Figuring that, but that again, you are the conductor of that. Yes. You know, who in your circle has the key?

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Or can Jimmy a lock, you know Yeah. Uhhuh, like whatever that is. But if you can't do it, then you rely on your community to get into it. But that is still pivoting. Yeah. 'cause the knocking on the door is not gonna work. 

Speaker 2: No, but it's the creative thinking. Like, come back to your own brain. Figure out what resources you have.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And then just redo the puzzle. Redo the 

Speaker: puzzle, 

Speaker 2: when you started out casting at NYU Yeah. It was a role that you just, I heard you on a podcast recently, right?

Speaker 2: For casting [00:50:00] networks. It's called How We Roll. That's right How we Roll. Robert Peter. Paul. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That was such a fun interview. Yeah. 

Speaker: He's such a good, I've known him for years. He's such 

Speaker 2: a good guy. Guy. He has like a very good, um, his, his voice sounds warm and approachable. Yes. Yeah. Because he is a warm and approachable human.

Speaker 2: I love that. when you started out. Casting. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker 2: At NYU, how did you transition from doing work at school into it becoming your profession and you getting paid for it? 

Speaker: Mm. Yeah. I think everything is hand in hand. Um, like you said, I was at NYU casting all through college. Mm-hmm. Junior year was the first light bulb moment of like, I think this could be a career.

Speaker: Oh really? Um, yeah. Just because it was sort of like, it was a thing I did, but not the thing I thought I was going to do for the rest of my life. 'cause it found me. Yeah. Like a lot of casting directors or casting professionals, it just, it just found me. Um, but junior year when everybody was doing their, when I was in Dublin, I went to Dublin to study music videos and did that 'cause that's what I went to film school thinking I was gonna do uhhuh be a music video director.

Speaker: So [00:51:00] they had this program where you go to Dublin and you make music videos. And when I got back I was like, that was great. That was fun. Had a lot of good times. But I think casting is probably the thing that will make me. Go. 

Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

Speaker: You know, and not leaving everything else behind and it's dust, but I think this, this will possibly be a career.

Speaker: Yeah. To, to see. Um, and so then at the end of junior year, I applied, um, to internships, like one does. Mm-hmm. And, um, I started interning at NBC that senior year, and I interned there for a year. Um, and then I graduated and I started a, b, C later, um, in 2012 that fall. But yeah, I think everything just builds upon everything.

Speaker: Uh, most if not all of my jobs goes back to NYU. Okay. Even, even the, the posting that I found that a b, C job came from NYU. Mm-hmm. You know, and that's a, that's a fun story in and of itself, but I think I am now working on 2, [00:52:00] 3, 3 indies right now. From former classmates, you know? Oh, yes. So like, that's when you're a senior in college or you know, right out of college.

Speaker: They always say like, you will be working with these people for the rest of your life, and you roll your eyes and you suck your teeth and you like do stuff with your shoulders. They're like, you don't know what you're talking about, but it's true. Mm-hmm. I've been working with the same people since first day of college, you know, the surrogate, which, you know, um, was one of, uh, the, I, I won an audios for that, but I worked with Jeremy Hirsch forever in school.

Speaker: I met him first day of college, you know. Yeah. And so was, I did his narrative film. I did his thesis film and I did his feature film, you know? Mm-hmm. And so that's why community is so important to me. Yes. Because I have seen it not only work for me, but work for my colleagues and we're just better for it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. 

Speaker: Um. So, yeah. I don't know if that answers your question. 

Speaker 2: It does, it does. But, and you also can't replicate that knowing. Yeah. When you have a shorthand with someone like that. A hundred percent. That's [00:53:00] just, 

Speaker: yeah. Amazing. And like my producing partner, Joe, again, met him first day of college. Mm-hmm. Talk about just like, not even speaking and communicating.

Speaker: We could just look at each other and we know exactly what we're, we just set a full on the thousand page paper. Yeah. Just by like, looking at him. 

Speaker: You know, it's, it's that innate thing when you know someone for as long as you do, and also from 18 to 35, that's half of your life, you know? Yeah. I've known these people for half of my life, and like you said, there is a shorthand, there is a communication of like, I know he's not gonna like that.

Speaker: And they're like, oh, well, I'm like, I, no, he not. I'm telling you, not going, not like it. And then he comes and he is like, oh, I don't like this at all. And I'm like, 

Speaker 4: yeah, 

Speaker: you know, you could, you could just believed me for that. That's what I'm, I've known this man since he was 18 and, you know, Uhhuh, um, so. Yeah.

Speaker: It's an, it's an interesting process to see us grow up. Mm-hmm. And to see us be, you know, 18 years old with these cameras to now be Emmy nominated producers on RuPaul's Drag Race or like take favorite show, you know, do like all of this stuff. It's, it's amazing and exciting to see.

Speaker: Yeah. And I think that's why you were talking about [00:54:00] competitive. Mm-hmm. There is that fire that pushes you, but I think iron sharpens iron, you know, the Bible says, but, but also via, um, science is just very much of like, oh, I don't wanna, I wanna do better. Not because you are doing better, but because like we can do better.

Speaker: Yeah. It's a, we, it's not a human me, it's a we. Correct. Um, and so that's, that's exciting to see. All of my classmates are just people that I've met along the way. Like, kill it. Kill the game. 

Speaker 2: And having a community that you grow with too. Yeah. Where they know older versions. I know. 

Speaker: You know, I don't know.

Speaker: Yeah. But they, they, I was just thinking about that the other day, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just of people like I that I haven't talked to since high school. Mm-hmm. But new high school e you know, high school E love versus someone who just met me today. Mm-hmm. You know, who knows? 30 5-year-old. It's like, it's the same but different.

Speaker: Yeah. You know, I think confidence is probably the biggest difference. Mm-hmm. You know, personally. But I, I think 'cause you know, there's that, that, um, social media trend where it's like I had coffee with my [00:55:00] younger self and I love that. And I also love, like, I had coffee with my childhood best friend, which I'm lucky that it's the same person.

Speaker: Yeah. You know, my childhood best, who I've known since birth. Mm-hmm. Um, we are, I was the maid of honor of her wedding a few years ago. Wow. You know, so I still have pockets of people that not only know. Teenage me, but no little me, you know? Um, so I'm very lucky to have that. But I would love to see the trend of like, I had coffee with my friend that I used to dance with every single day, and we just talked about, you know, this and that, and then this and that.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I call those versions little Kate. Yeah. Because I have to like, give her a hug sometimes. Gotta give her a hug. And also because my visual for myself is like, I am this big Kate becoming bigger. Mm-hmm. But I have so many little Kates following behind me, and, and I'm bringing them with me.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Where I'm like, look what we're doing. Like how cool is this? I know. 

Speaker: And, and that's, and that's another thing I think, you know, this business is brutal. It's like, I think, you know, we've said a lot of beautiful things, which is very true. But this business is very brutal. [00:56:00] Mm-hmm. And when it gets the, the hardest, or when it's like the lowest, it's like 12-year-old, you would be.

Speaker: Speechless right now that like you are talking about these people as if they are your best friends. Yeah. I'll put them on the list. Like, yeah. Okay. I'll check. They're avail and like you're talking to the biggest stars, agents and managers about a project that you are working on. 

Speaker 2: You 

Speaker: know, it's like 12-year-old you like, that's crazy.

Speaker 2: That's crazy. It is a nice check-in to sort of like go back. Yeah. Before we finish, I have a question about music for you. Hey. So if that was gonna be your first thing that you wanted to direct, you wanted to direct music videos. Mm-hmm. Music is listening, music is experiencing. Mm-hmm. What has your relationship been like with music your whole life?

Speaker: Oh, music is my life. Okay. Music is my life. I grew up, um, music is actually probably the first thing I thought I was going to do, not be a musician. Okay. But I, I tell the story all the time. I have a vivid memory of me holding, um, uh, Destiny's Child off the wall, uh, mus, uh, CD and opening that booklet.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Rest in, in peace or the, um, the 

Speaker 2: [00:57:00] posters that you, the 

Speaker: posters. Um, but this was the booklet and it had the credits. And I was like, what's an executive producer? What's a sound designer? What's a, like, what's a sound engineer? What's an audio engineer? What's a and r Like, all of this, that, and I was just very curious about that.

Speaker: And there was a time where, a big thing with me is because I'm a dancer, because I have music, because I have film, I'm always trying to find ways to connect them. And at some point, there was a moment in my life where I wanted to be a music supervisor for film and tv. Um, but yeah, music plays a huge part of my life.

Speaker: I grew up playing piano, playing drums. Um, my colleagues all, uh, sometimes make fun of me because I talk about rhythm a lot. I'm like, Ooh, the rhythm of the scene is off, or your cadence is off. Or it doesn't groove the way that I think it could groove Uhhuh, you know? So I do, you know, uh, talk sometimes rhythmically or musically.

Speaker: Um, I'm casting my first musical right now, actually. Congratulations. Um, thank you. But yeah, I think we all have our tools and our toolboxes, [00:58:00] and that's why I always tell artists like, don't forget about what you used to do when you were kids. So if you were someone who loved to jump rope. Keep jump rope.

Speaker: Yeah. If you're someone who grew up playing the harp, play the harp. You know, like, don't, don't say no to your extracurriculars now that their hobbies and life is hard and maybe whatever. Mm-hmm. But always have the curiosity and always try to put other tools in your toolbox because it just becomes, um, you become a better artist that way because you become a better human that way.

Speaker: Yeah. Um, but yeah, music, music is, music is my jam. Is your I tagline. Yeah. It's, and all types of music. I'm like, my boyfriend is always like, how do you, we were, I was listening to Lainey Wilson the other day and he was like, who is that? I was like, Lainey Wilson. Yeah. Four by four. Like, you know, and he was like, how do you know this stuff?

Speaker: Like, and it's just like, well, I have Spotify premium. Mm-hmm. And so sometimes it just pops on up. Yeah. But because I love music. 

Speaker: I love music. 

Speaker 2: And that expression has also expanded into your casting and is expanded into your life as a person. [00:59:00]Mm-hmm. I think that's whatever identity anyone has. I feel like, you know, if it's actor, if it's.

Speaker 2: Casting director. It should be actor plus casting director Plus, because to separate out life and art mm-hmm. Is, I feel a huge mistake. Because they're the same thing. Yeah. They feed the other. And what makes you a whole human is being three dimensional and honoring that three dimensionality and also the three dimensionality of the environment that you're in too.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Why would you ignore any of that? There's more information there for you. More information, yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. Where can people find you? They can find 

Speaker: me. Where can people find me? Instagram. Mm-hmm. @elove67. Um, that's probably where I am a lot of the time.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. But, uh, my website, hartcasting.com is also a good place to find things. Maybe not me, but to find things and information. 

Speaker 4: Yeah. 

Speaker: Um, but yeah, if you see me on the street, say hi. Love that. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh my 

Speaker 2: gosh. 

Speaker: Thank you. 

Speaker 2: That's the blue 

Speaker: that flew.[01:00:00]

Speaker: One and done. One and done. One and done. 

Speaker 2: Seriously. 

Speaker: Wolf had it. Look, it was great. Yeah, it was really good. Yeah.

And that's the latest I'm honored to have been part of your thinking sphere today. Feel free to share, like, and subscribe on this platform or follow and participate on any of my social media platforms. If this practice intrigues you as much as it does me, then join us in the ME three community where we will work directly and you'll curate a mindful method of thinking to define your own creative conscious.

Thanks for listening to the latest episode of Authenticated. I love that you're here.