Surrendering Certainties to God with Abby McDonald (Mark 6:30-44)

In this episode I welcome author Abby McDonald to the podcast to discuss her new book, Surrendering Certainty, and talk us through a familiar miracle in Mark 6: the Feeding of the 5,000. In this episode we'll discuss:

• Why Jesus asked the disciples to get enough food for thousands of people
• Why this miracle is different from every other miracle in Mark so far
• And how we can find peace to move forward in God's will

Abby has lots of wisdom to share with us, you don't want to miss this conversation! 

Links:

Find Abby's  book on Amazon: Surrendering Certainty

Abby's Instagram: @abbymcdonaldwriter

Find her Abby's "Unstuck Challenge" on her website: www.abbymcdonald.org

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For more resources visit www.whitneyakin.com
Find my book, Overlooked, on Amazon, B&N, and Christianbook.com
Find me on Instagram @whitneyakin

**Sign up for my newsletter + get a free resource HERE!

***Join the Hanging On Every Word Bible Study Group on Facebook HERE!

Transcript

Whitney Akin (00:01.144)
Well, welcome back to Hanging on Every Word. And this week, I'm so excited to introduce you to Abby McDonald. So welcome to the show, Abby. I'm so happy to have you.

Abby McDonald (00:09.349)
Thank you for having me Whitney, I'm glad to be here.

Whitney Akin (00:12.064)
Yeah, Abby is an author, editor and writing coach with a passion for helping women get unstuck and respond to God's voice and faith. Her books, Shift and Surrendering Certainty are part of her mission to empower believers to seek God in the middle of life's messes. I love that. And to share their faith with courage. Abby writes regularly for Proverbs 31 Ministries Daily Devotions team, and her work has been featured in numerous publications. And Abby and I share the same

publisher. So it's exciting to have another Leafwood author onto the show. And so Abby, could you tell us a little bit about your upcoming book, Surrendering Certainty? I really love that name, by the way. I think it's really catchy.

Abby McDonald (00:51.225)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm glad to hear that. I've had mixed reactions about that title. Some people are like, oof. Yeah, but yeah, so surrendering certainty really was born out of, of course, my own struggles, but also just conversations that I have with other women. And I kept seeing these comment, this common struggle of

Whitney Akin (00:59.24)
Really?

Abby McDonald (01:18.795)
Is this God's voice? Is this God's will? I'm unsure. I don't know how to proceed. And I thought, you know, there's something there and I want to dig deeper and figure out, you know, what's at the root of this question. And what I found in my own journey is that a lot of times, well, the root of the question is one fear, but it's longing for certainty about

what's gonna happen on the other side of our step of faith? What's gonna happen if I'm obedient? How are people gonna react? Am I gonna be successful? Whatever that looks like. Am I gonna look foolish? That sort of thing. And it can keep us stuck in this cycle of doubt. so, surrendering certainty is really about laying down that need.

certainty about what's going to happen, knowing that's in God's hands. And if He calls us to do whatever it is, we can let go of that. And we can rest in three truths that I unpack throughout the book. They're from John 10. And they are, my sheep hear my voice, they will come and go and find pasture, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. And so

I talk a lot about a lot of other scripture throughout the book, but those are the main three that I focus on. And it's really an invitation to make those truths in God's Word our source of certainty rather than whatever we perceive as, you know, that we need in this life, which is temporary anyway.

So yeah, I'm excited to share it.

Whitney Akin (03:18.51)
Yeah, yeah, that sounds so relatable and I can also relate people having funny reactions to a book title my books called overlooked so that hits some people like yeah and other people like what do mean? That sounds really really really awesome, so I'm looking forward to that We're gonna talk to Abby a little bit more about her book later on the episode But first Abby has graciously agreed to talk with us about a miracle in the book of Mark

Abby McDonald (03:31.131)
Yeah.

Whitney Akin (03:46.99)
And we've studied a lot of miracles so far on the podcast, but this one I think is kind of unlike the other miracles that we've studied. And so I'm excited to hear you take, Abby. And it's probably very familiar for our listeners. It's the Feeding of the 5,000 and it's found in Mark 6, 30 through 44. And so I'm going to read the passage. As I read it today, I just want to encourage you to just listen to a familiar story, but with fresh ears.

So it starts in verse says,

By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. This is a remote place, they said, and it's already very late. Send the people away so they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat. But he answered, you give them something to eat. And they said to him, that would take more than half a year's wages. Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat? How many loaves do you have? He asked. Go and see. And when they found out, they said, five and two fish.

Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties, taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to distribute to the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. Then they all ate and were satisfied. And the disciples picked up 12 basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. And the number of the men who had eaten was 5,000. So.

Abby, one thing that sticks out when I read this passage is that this was not originally on Jesus' agenda to do that day. We read that the disciples have just returned from ministering and they're on their way to rest and it's been so tiring. In fact, it says that they haven't been able to eat anything, which is kind of interesting in this passage. It's all about eating something.

Abby McDonald (06:00.367)
Mm-hmm.

Whitney Akin (06:00.598)
And so we are told that they go by boat to a place, but the crowd recognizes and they run and get there ahead of them. And the text says that Jesus has compassion on them and begins to teach them. And so my question is, what do think we can learn about the balance here of rest and service from Jesus's example in this account?

Abby McDonald (06:21.242)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I think that what stood out to me and as I read this passage again the other day is just that Jesus knows our need, you know, and he oftentimes will address it before we even

bring it to him. You know, like the disciples didn't come to him and say, we're tired and we're hungry, you know, but he immediately recognizes that and he, he invites them to come away with them, even though, you know, the people end up following him, you know, they still have that, you know, little moment of respite on the boat there as they're traveling. And so I think that just recognizing that

That balance is important, but a lot of times, even when we don't feel like we have it, know, like Jesus can still meet it. know, when we feel like we don't have the time, we don't have the time to eat, to rest, to, you know, just do the basic things that we need to do. A lot of times, He'll come into the situation and just say, yep, you're gonna rest now.

You know And so I just found that just really comforting, you know, because the passage is all about Just our basic needs, you know, we need to eat we need to rest and It's not one of those miracles where you know, he's he's healing a leper or a lame person

It's just meeting those everyday needs that we have, which I found really beautiful.

Whitney Akin (08:16.654)
Yeah, absolutely. And we see that the disciples are concerned for the people once Jesus has taught and they say, you know, these people are hungry, but I think their concern is a little bit different than Jesus's concern, maybe. Maybe they're being a little bit more pragmatic than they are compassionate. So we see Jesus being very compassionate. The disciples are more like,

Abby McDonald (08:32.315)
you

Whitney Akin (08:39.402)
Why don't you send the people home so they can go get something to eat? Because it's late and there's nothing around here to eat. And I don't, and totally this is just Whitney, not scripture, but totally implying here that maybe underneath it was also like, why don't you send them home so that we can also get something to retire? And then Jesus answers with something I find almost comical. It's just like, hey guys, you get something for them to eat. And so why do think Jesus asked his disciples to give the people something to eat when he knows good and well there's not enough food?

Abby McDonald (09:08.987)
Yeah, I think that this is just a great example of Jesus inviting his people to participate in the miracle, know, and I mean, and he invites us all to be a part of the work he's doing, but a lot of times we have that same reaction that they did. It's like, you know, there's not enough. So I'm not going to even try to make this work or

you know, meet whatever need either I have or someone else has, I'm just, done, you know, let's send them away and let's just move on. But, yeah, he invites them to be a part of it, you know, and, and it already said in the previous passage how he had given them, given them the authority to perform miracles and they went and they performed these miracles. And yet here,

It's almost like there's this mental block, you know, like, I don't know, you know, what the cause of that is. I can certainly speculate, you know, but it's almost like, you know, with the healing people in the lane of hands and stuff, they're like, yeah, we got this. But when it came to something just basic, you know, like eating, they didn't see the power.

that they had. So I found that really interesting. yeah, I think that he's inviting them in, you know, and like, hey, look, this is, something's gonna happen here and you're about to witness it.

Whitney Akin (10:55.596)
Yeah, I love that. I hadn't really thought of it that way and I love that. And you're right, you know, right before this passage, if listeners go back and read, Jesus is basically commissioning them to go out and perform miracles and sort of with his power on them. And so it's such a great point that he's saying, well, maybe you could do it because we've talked about how you have the power to do these things in my name. so, but they're not thinking that way right now.

Abby McDonald (11:22.926)
Right.

Whitney Akin (11:23.574)
In fact, their first concern when Jesus says that immediately goes to money and they're thinking it's going to take half of our year's salary to pay for one meal for these people. And so again, this is like a really practical and pragmatic response. I think I would be worried about money as well. Like, I don't know how that's possible. And even though there is this very practical need, like you've talked about in the scripture, like it's just feeding them. It's not

healing the blind or the lame or the lepers, just feeding them. Even though this is so practical, we see that there's also this very much supernatural thing going on and the disciples are caught up in the pragmatic and practical and Jesus is sort of like beckoning them to see beyond just money or just amounts. And so what do you think is that significance for Jesus's invitation? He tells the disciples, well, go and see, go and see what's out there.

Abby McDonald (12:20.653)
Mm-hmm. Yeah Yeah, I think that

for them, know, he's again, just inviting them, you know, and he's like, are you going to obey what I'm saying, you know, or put up another argument, or just, you know, go, do what I'm saying to do. And that I think in a practical way for us, it's,

To me, it says, are we going to go and see, you know, are we going to have the faith to explore further than what we see in the everyday, you know, are we going to invite him into the situation or see what's possible even beyond just our own resources and.

what we have, you know? I think that a lot of times we're tempted to just look at, well, I don't have enough money or I don't have enough of this, I don't have enough time, whatever it is. And God has shown me time and time again that when I'm willing, that He can multiply.

whatever that is I'm concerned about. And a lot of times it doesn't even make sense, you know? But I have to be willing to go and see like he's inviting them to go and see.

Whitney Akin (14:05.142)
Yeah, I love that. That's such a great application for us from that little command go and see. That's so good. And so we see the disciples do. They go out and they gather five loaves and two fish, which is a total of seven. And we know in the Bible that's the number of completion. And there's a lot of imagery and symbolism going on in this passage. And then the people are told to sit down in this very orderly fashion. And Jesus gives thanks to God.

and asked his disciples to then distribute the food. And I'd just like us to talk for a minute about the disciples distributing these loaves and fishes. And like, at what point do you think they're realizing, oh, this is a huge miracle taking place? Can you just kind of help us get into the cues for a minute?

Abby McDonald (14:53.243)
Yeah, I was trying to imagine this earlier and I just think that you know, they're probably Just sourced out the the people that they had in their group there, you know Hey, you go tackle this group and I'll tackle this group, but then they only had you know What was that? That's the two

Whitney Akin (15:23.116)
the two fish.

Abby McDonald (15:24.057)
Yeah, the two fish and the five loaves, you know, and so I could see them just say, hey, you take this loop and you take this loaf and I'll go and attack this, this group over here. And I think the point where they would recognize that this is in fact a miracle is when they kept breaking off these amounts and that just kept going.

you know, and it never ran out. never diminished, you know, and I would think that that would that probably happened fairly quickly, you know, because I mean, it says how much they had left and they had 12 basketfuls left. I mean, and so that's really I mean, that seems like more than they had to begin with, you know, and so.

Whitney Akin (16:19.933)
Absolutely.

Abby McDonald (16:22.971)
Yeah, I think that it was probably an amazing sight to behold and it just makes me smile thinking about it.

Whitney Akin (16:33.664)
Yeah, I wonder if it was just almost too surreal to take in. We actually see later on, we're going to talk about another episode that the Bible says they didn't understand the miracle of the loaves and fishes, like they didn't get it. And it's just, it's so practical that it's almost and so supernatural at the same time that it's almost like you can't comprehend what is happening. But yeah, I love to think about what in the world were they thinking in that moment as they're handing this food out?

Abby McDonald (16:47.61)
Yeah.

Abby McDonald (16:56.336)
Yeah.

Whitney Akin (17:03.618)
And you touched on that. So just in case we think, well, you know, there was a lot of people, but they all just got one little tiny crumb or something. The Bible tells us that they ate and were satisfied. So we know that it was not just a little nibble of bread. then the after, and we know it was more than 5000 people because it says men. So we're looking probably at maybe 20,000 people, men, women and children. And so there's 12 baskets left over. Like you said, that's

Abby McDonald (17:14.779)
Yeah.

Whitney Akin (17:31.308)
That seems like more than they started with, I'm pretty sure. And the 12 baskets should draw our minds to the 12 disciples, maybe to the 12 tribes of Israel. And the bread should maybe draw our minds back to the manna and the wilderness. is, Jesus is supernaturally providing for these people, kind of like God did for the Israelites. And so on this season of the podcast, we've been talking about how miracles point us to Jesus in a few different ways, to his authority.

or his identity or his kingdom. And so in thinking about this miracle, what do you think of Jesus about who Jesus is?

Abby McDonald (18:09.123)
Hmm, yeah. Well, it's interesting that we're looking at this passage today because it just ties into what I've been studying in my own personal time, which God always does that, doesn't he? But I've been studying Hebrews and that in Hebrews, the author who we don't know exactly who the author was, but

Whitney Akin (18:22.957)
he knows.

Abby McDonald (18:33.103)
That's one of his primary goals in the opening chapters is just establishing who Jesus was and the supremacy of Jesus. And he says he is over everything. He created everything. He is basically supreme and in charge of everything. He doesn't slow down in those first couple of chapters.

This is a perfect illustration of that happening in Jesus earthly ministry. he has authority over the bread and the fish, over food, over these people who are hungry. And yeah, it just really solidifies that passage of scripture.

in Hebrews and so it's amazing to me just how everything ties together when you read the whole of scripture.

Whitney Akin (19:36.494)
Yeah.

Whitney Akin (19:40.366)
Absolutely. actually our last season on the podcast is all about Hebrews. And so we study exactly what you're talking about in Hebrews one and in just the first few verses of Hebrews one, we get like a whole theology of Christ. I mean, it's so amazing how much author packs in in those two verses. And so I love that you connected those two because we are we're really seeing in this feed of the five thousand, this pointing to Jesus as not just a good prophet or whatever, but as God, you know, we're seeing that just like

Abby McDonald (19:44.356)
Mmm.

Abby McDonald (19:52.035)
Yeah, yeah.

Abby McDonald (20:08.98)
huh. Yeah.

Whitney Akin (20:10.53)
says, so that's awesome. So I want to kind of switch gears now and move on to kind of talking a little bit about your story personally. I'd love to hear what made you fall in love with God's Word and what grew that kind of learning and love for God's Word over time.

Abby McDonald (20:30.031)
Hmm. Yeah, it that's a good question. It was definitely a journey for me. I went to a private Christian school as a middle high schooler. And so we did study a lot of scripture during that time, but I can't say I was in love with it during the time. I actually my senior year, I went through a bit of a rebellious phase.

But my love for the word was really born after the birth of my first child. my husband and I had moved over 2,000 miles away from the town where I grew up in Irmo, South Carolina, which is just outside Columbia for those who aren't familiar with Irmo, home of the Okra Strut is their big claim to fame.

But yeah, so we lived in Utah for about three and a half years and anybody who's been to Utah knows that Mormon LDS is the primary faith there. And I was approached a lot by people of the LDS faith, just, you know, kind of inviting me to church and

seeing if I wanted to be a part of their ward and whatever. And I really, did not have, I knew the answer was no, but I didn't know why. And I didn't really have a solid enough foundation in my faith to really be able to engage with them about what I believed and why what I believed was different. And that was that in a,

very long bout with a postpartum depression after the birth of my first child was kind of a catalyst for me that I really, I wanted to dig into scripture and know what I believed, why I believed it. And the more that I dug into it, the more I began to fall in love with it. And it just, a fire was just awakened in me and

Abby McDonald (22:53.303)
I started with the New Testament and then later on I dug more into the Old Testament and work started working my way through and there have been seasons, you know, where where that fire has not been that is is kindled and it's bright. I think we all go through those seasons. But one thing that I've found is that discipline breeds desire and

Even when I don't always feel like opening my Bible, when I am obedient and I have that discipline to do it anyway, the desire continues and it bursts that desire. So yeah, that's a little snippet of my journey with it. Yeah.

Whitney Akin (23:44.16)
Yeah. Thank you for sharing. That's beautiful. And I love that discipline. Would you say discipline breeds desire? Discipline. Absolutely. 100 % true in my experience as well. I love that. And I think sometimes we get it backward that we think it's always going to be something we desire, but often it's not what we desire. Really, really cool.

Abby McDonald (23:52.685)
Yeah, yeah.

Abby McDonald (24:06.243)
Yeah. Yeah.

Whitney Akin (24:10.486)
So I'm always looking for ways to grow in my time with Jesus. And I know that my listeners really appreciate practical tips for just spending time with Jesus and Bible study. And the kind of goal of this podcast is to create consistent and confident Bible readers. And so if you could give us one tip in growing in our Bible study or in spending time with Jesus, what would that be?

Abby McDonald (24:33.517)
Yeah, I'll tell you Whitney, I can think of lots and so I'm trying to condense it down to, I would, one thing that has really just kind of rekindled that desire I talked about in me, because I think sometimes we just need like an extra tool or something, you know, to just get us excited about it and

Whitney Akin (24:39.68)
I'm sorry you're not.

Abby McDonald (25:01.243)
studying the Bible chronologically has really helped me. It's shown me that the Bible is written as a narrative and it's intended for us to read it that way. And so I actually purchased a chronological study Bible last year. It's a

The day by day, I'm looking up here to see what it is, the day by day chronological study Bible. It's Holman Publishers. And that just really rekindled that fire for the Word for me and helped me to see scripture in a new way and to just dig down and know the roots and how everything is connected.

you know, like we talked about before with with Hebrews and then, you know, this miracle here, it's all connected and it's all intended to tell us a story about who God is. so, yeah.

Whitney Akin (26:13.382)
Yeah, I read a chronological Bible several years ago and I think it's time to go back to it, but it was so eye-opening and so, like you said, just kind of a fresh perspective on things that is, as I highly suggest, the same than to anybody. And now you're inspiring me to go back and do it again. I don't know if mine was a study Bible, so I'm kind of inspired to do a chronological study Bible. That would be pretty cool.

Abby McDonald (26:38.299)
Yeah, yeah, it has little intros that things to look for, you know, and kind of where you're at in that piece of the Bible. And so it helped me to kind of know what things to look for, because some books of the Bible are harder than others. I mean, especially when you get to Jeremiah and some of the major prophets, you know, it, you know, it takes some some digging in and, know, just

get some commitment to get through it.

Whitney Akin (27:10.537)
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. That's great advice. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to circle back to your book, Back to Surrendering Certainty. You told us a little bit about this. I'd like to hear a little more. You kind of told us what inspired you to write this message. And the two things that stuck out to me when you said this were hearing God, women struggling to understand and hear God and

to kind of know what happens if they're gonna take a leap of faith. So can you just tell us some more about like that inspiration to write this book, maybe your own personal experience with these things?

Abby McDonald (27:47.771)
Yeah. Yeah, well, the book was what really got me to write the book was these conversations that I mentioned at the beginning that I kept having with people. I think it, you know, it always starts with our own experience. I mean, we have to know what we're writing and we have to have been there personally.

I can look back at my own journey and see so many times when I felt God prompted me to do something and I just stalled or I hesitated. I would ask him for a sign either verbally or just kind of, know, in my head like, hey God, know, could you just give me a little sign or give me a little confirmation? And because God is gracious and merciful, many times He did.

And then sometimes I would say, you know, can you give me another sign kind of like Gideon? And Yeah, and you know that I think that there's nothing wrong with that there's nothing wrong with wanting confirmation The problem comes in when we're more dependent on the sign than we are on the Savior himself You know and it it just becomes

kind of almost like this idol, know, like, God, give me a sign, you know? And I think a lot of us can be, just because I've had these conversations, we can be prone to do that. And so I think there comes a point where in everybody's life, no matter what God has prompted you toward that, when you have to just do it, you know, and you have to take that step. And it's not until you move forward,

that you can see God's faithfulness in the unknown. And so that really is what I talk about in the book. It does talk about ways we can discern God's voice and things to look out for, but it's also about, you know, what is it that God has already told me to do that I'm not doing because I'm afraid.

Abby McDonald (30:11.919)
you know, or I am uncertain about what's gonna happen and how to move past that fear. So yeah, I really hope it's just a catalyst for women to get unstuck and to have the confidence and the freedom of knowing that God speaks to each of us. It is not a gift reserved for a select few. There are ways we can foster that ability.

But it is not just for the person who's behind the pulpit. It is for each one of us.

Whitney Akin (30:47.298)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I love that. I think that actually answers my last question I had for you is what do you hope readers will take away from from the message of surrendering certainty, which she just kind of said beautifully. Do have anything to add to that?

Abby McDonald (31:01.755)
Yeah, I hope that they will be able to move forward in whatever they feel God calling them to do. I think two questions that I talk about are, does this show my love for God? And this is show my love for others. And if the answer to both of those questions is yes, then you can move forward in confidence and be empowered in His love.

because I can 100 % tell you that God is not gonna punish you for doing something out of love for Him. And so, it look at 100 % like you thought it would look and go according to your plan 100 %? Probably not. But, but He's gonna, it'll probably be better because He's God.

Whitney Akin (31:52.514)
Well, that's a thing.

Whitney Akin (31:58.754)
Yeah. Yeah, that's so good. I was actually, and it's funny, like you said, God's timing is always funny. I'm teaching a Bible study at my church and last night our lesson was on just continuing the assignment and being steady in what God has called us to do and how sometimes we can really overcomplicate what that looks like. And I hear you saying, hey, it doesn't necessarily have to be so hard to figure that out.

And a lot of times it's our fear of moving forward that actually makes us stay in that place. Like, well, what do you want me to do, God? Cause we really just don't want to move forward. so I think that message is so relevant for, for everyone, not just people in quote unquote ministry, cause we're all in ministry, right? but like you said, not just for the person in the pulpit, but for everyone out there. So it's beautiful.

Abby McDonald (32:47.355)
Well, thank you. And actually, I just wanted to add real quick that actually one of my chapters is called God's Will for You is not a multiple choice test. And so I think that that speaks to what you were just saying, how we overcomplicate things.

Whitney Akin (32:57.902)
But I it.

Whitney Akin (33:05.824)
Yeah, I love that. Well I know readers are going to want to be able to find both Shift, which was your first book, and Surrendering Certainty and also Connect with You. So can you kind of tell us how we can find your resources and also connect with you?

Abby McDonald (33:20.779)
Absolutely. Yes. You can find me at abbymcdonald.org. And yeah, it's as soon as you hop over there, you'll you'll see my book kind of on that first page there. And it'll tell you all the places you can hop there and can find all the places to order it. I am offering a free guide if you pre order before the book comes out on May 6.

with it's kind of a sample of what you'll see in the book and it's three questions to guide you when you're unsure it's his voice. And yeah, and then I also have a five day challenge that you can sign up for there. It's to help readers get unstuck and those steps, some of those areas we talked about with just being uncertain of the future and

areas where we need some clarity, which a lot of times we just need to move forward and then we'll have it. But yeah, I'd be happy to connect with you there.

Whitney Akin (34:40.174)
That's great. Well, Abby, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and for sharing your wisdom and insight. It's been a really lovely conversation and a pleasure having you on.

Abby McDonald (34:50.203)
Thank you for having me.

Whitney Akin (34:51.584)
Absolutely. And friends, go check Abby out. I'm going to link everything that she talked about in the show notes for you. So it'll be easy to find. I know she's got some great resources. I'm thinking I need to go take that unstuck thing that you just talked about. I need to go sign up for that because I'm always stuck, seems. But until next time, friends, I can't wait to study with you again. All right.