#43: Jeremy McKane (OCN.ai) – Turning Ocean Protection Into Profit

Can marine protected areas be profitable? Most ocean protection runs on government aid and philanthropic foundations. However, Jeremy McKane thinks the only way to make protection permanent is to make it pay for itself. He's the CEO of OCN.ai, and he's building the data infrastructure that lets investors see whether ocean assets are actually performing, turning ocean protection from a leap of faith into something you can actually invest in.

Jeremy’s bio:

Jeremy McKane is the founder and CEO of the Ocean Currency Network (OCN), where he combines over 30 years of tech experience with marine conservation. His career began in tech, and he built OCN.ai, a platform that monitors marine ecosystems and verifies blue carbon credits using real-time data updated every 30 minutes, a major leap from the traditional five-year reporting cycle. Described as a "Fitbit for the ocean," the platform helps unlock revenue through biodiversity and blue carbon credits, with partners including PwC, The Crown Estate UK, and Blue Green Future.

He's also an underwater photographer and installation artist and co-founded Ultramarine on Richard Branson's Necker Island, an initiative focused on protecting 30% of the ocean by 2030.

 
Timestamps:

00:00:00 - Introduction 
00:01:10 - Jeremy McKane’s mission at OCN.AI
00:02:10 - Technology as way of exporting value from oceans whilst preserving them
00:02:30 - What is a digital MRV platform and how it applies to ocean conservation
00:03:20 - What an healthy ocean and marine protection are worth to any individual
00:04:10 - Using the market forces as an answer to value the ocean without taking from it 00:06:30 - Better than ordinary carbon credits, with OCN technology tracking capabilities
00:07:10 - Developing Marine conservation areas as a parenting model: funding the development phase to pass the assets on the markets where they can self-sustain
00:08:10 - Misconceptions about carbon credits, learning from past mistakes to improve 
00:09:30 - Pricing natural resources to bridge the language and understanding and language 00:10:50 - Working within the system rather than against the system
00:12:10 - Technology, AI, and spotting ocean anomalies before catastrophe
00:13:10 - Why risk assessment matters to ocean investors
00:15:10 - The British Virgin Islands pilot, capacity building, and a nature-based economy

Useful Links & Resources:  

Jeremy McKane on LinkedIn 

Jeremy McKane’s website

OCN.ai: Website

***

Get in touch with The Ocean Age's host Fed DeGobbi on ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠, ⁠⁠X⁠⁠ or by emailing directly at fed@oceanage.co

The Ocean Age Podcast is edited by Nebojsa Lešević. Sarah Carpenter and Giulia Leanza are our research assistants. The show notes for this episode were produced by Cecilia Bombonato.

Please send in your feedback: what do you want to hear more or less of? Any suggestions? Would love to hear what you think!

Transcript

Fed DeGobbi: Can marine protected areas be profitable? Most ocean protection runs on government aid and philanthropic foundations. However, Jeremy McKane thinks the only way to make protection permanent is to make it pay for itself. He's the CEO of [OCN.ai](http://ocn.ai/), and he's building the data infrastructure that lets investors see whether ocean assets are actually performing, turning ocean protection from a leap of faith into something you can actually invest in. I'm Fed DeGobbi and this is another episode of The Ocean Age, the podcast for entrepreneurs and innovators in the blue economy. Here it goes. Let's do this!

Jeremy McKane: All right, let's go. What do you want to know? What can I tell you? 

Fed DeGobbi: Well, obviously, we just met. Yes. So maybe just tell me who you are and what is your mission, you know? Sure.

Jeremy McKane: Well, I'm Jeremy McCain. I'm the CEO of OCN.AI. And really, our mission is to help create marine protected areas around the world, but make them profitable so that they're permanent. Because right now, if you create a marine protected area, what happens? It costs money. And how do you keep that running? And where does that money come from? But when this becomes a revenue center, then it can fund itself. That's the theory, anyway. And so what we've done is we've built a digital MRV platform that measures an enormous amount of stuff to really understand what's happening in the environment. Two follow-up questions. One is, what is MRV? Oh, I'm sorry. You know, it's really funny. I used to, you know, I have a background in technology. And then you find out that technologists often use these three-letter acronyms, which we call TLAs. That's like a recursive acronym. No, digital MRV, DMRV, which is a Digital Measurement Report Verify. So Lord Kelvin once famously said, if you want to improve something, you have to first measure it. So if we want to improve the quality of life with ourselves, with the ocean, we have to understand the baseline. And once we understand the baseline, is it increasing or decreasing? And so what we try to do is as real time as possible.

Fed DeGobbi: Fantastic. Okay, so you said something that kind of surprised me, which is you want to make marine protected areas profitable. Now, when I think about marine protected areas, the last thing I think about is them making money. I guess usually what you think about marine protected areas is some kind of maybe state controlled area that is there for the good of the ocean and the opposite of extracting. Right? Sure. So how do you make a marine protected area profitable?

Jeremy McKane: Well, so many years ago, 10 years ago, this will be 11 years ago, I was in Paris for COP 21. And I sat next to this young, lovely lady by the name of Dr. Sylvia Earle. And she asked me a simple question. She said, Jeremy, how do we get people to value the ocean where it is without taking things from it? Why can't we just value it for what it does for us? And I said, I don't know, Sylvia. I don't have an answer for that. But I'm not going to stop until I find it. It's taken us a while, right? Because it's a hard question to answer. Because let's think about it. If we remove the ocean, if we remove the life that's in the ocean, all of those systems that support life as we so know it will disappear. So then ask yourself the question, how much will it cost us to build synthetic systems to support life as we know it? And the answer is trillions upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions. Why not just pay the ocean for what she does for us every day? This is the philosophy behind having an MPA be profitable. If we have an MPA that is protecting and doing all the things that sustain life on the planet, there are ways that, obviously there's already a carbon market, there are already people trading on the markets for carbon, but then there's also the opportunity for biodiversity. But as Dr. Carlos Duarte says, it's blue natural capital, which is comprised of carbon credits, biodiversity credits, and food security. Because let's not forget, There are over a billion people that rely on the ocean for food. So when we look at all of that and we say, how can we focus on protecting, there are mechanisms in place to generate revenue. So now what you're going to find is someone says, well, we have a marine protected area and we're having to spend enormous amounts of money every single year on this. How do we do this model? If we can use philanthropic dollars to kickstart an MPA like it's done today, then theoretically, with this model, those future philanthropic dollars don't go to sustaining an MPA, but to create new ones around the planet, and that is a tangible strategy to protect 30% of the world's oceans by 2030. In practical terms, who pays for it? So these would be the markets. The market, who are interested in credits. That are interested in credits. And so you have some things that are already in place where companies now have to have certain reporting, certain ESG reportings on Wall Street that say, what are we actually doing to actually make a difference? And you can't claim these types of benefits while also polluting. Right? So you, it's just like the same, if we were to stop all emissions right now, we'd still be in trouble because everything that we've put in the atmosphere is still there. Right? So we have to, as Dr. Ralph Shami says, we have to drain the tub. You know, he, he paints a picture saying if we have a leaky faucet and it's overflowing the tub, if we shut the faucet off, we still have the water. You got to pull the plug. And essentially that's what we're trying to do. And as a whole, And there are companies that are already actively working in this space that are looking for carbon credits. But the problem with carbon credits is you don't always know what you're buying. And where we come in and where the infrastructure play, we provide a digital platform that allows investors to actually see not only if those credits are there, but where are those assets? Are they performing? Are they sequestering carbon? Is there a threat that is headed towards catastrophe? And furthermore, what can we do to prevent that catastrophe? You put all of those things together in a nice package, and really what we're talking about is infrastructure.

Fed DeGobbi: And it all depends on good data, by the sound of it. And that's where you guys come in.

Jeremy McKane: Of course. Well, I think there's a couple of things at stake here. You mentioned you never thought about having an MPA make money. I have two daughters, two girls, ages 12 and 16. And right now, I'm paying for them. Everything that they ask for, I have to pay for them. That's my job as a parent. You can look at me as the government. At some point, at some point, they should have a job and they should pay for themselves. They shouldn't stay at my house forever. Please, God, let them not stay at my house forever. Right? So we need to look at these systems the exact same way. You know, let's kickstart an MPA, let's get it up to the certain standards, let's build capacity within the region, but then let's build the financial mechanisms so that it can continue to grow far beyond. And I think if we use that methodology, I think that we'll be in a good space.

Fed DeGobbi: What do you find is the biggest misconception in your industry when you talk to people or try to get your ideas across? What's the thing that you keep coming back to and you're like, God damn it. That's not the point.

Jeremy McKane: Yeah, I think, well, there's a couple, really. I mean, it's hard to pin one down. I would say probably the most prevalent is, maybe there's not, well, it's not a bargaining market or there's no one that's wanting to buy the credits. That's simply not true. Now, I think that also we had some issues with other groups that were selling carbon credits that were not clear on this disclosures of where those funds were going. And it put a huge flag on the entire market saying, well, we can't trust carbon credits because But just because they're carbon credits doesn't mean that they're bad. But what you need is clean, transparent data that can actually be verified by multiple sources. And that's really why we created this, is that as we saw the carbon markets coming into the ocean space, we did not want to see them the way that they went into the forest areas. And we saw what happened there. We thought, well, hey, that's a lesson learned. What can we do to prevent that? So we're trying to make everything as transparent as possible so that if and when somebody wants to analyze this stuff, they have the capability of doing so. So I think that's one issue. Sometimes people misconstrue the idea of having MPAs be profitable. And they say, well, you can't make a capital market off of something that we should conserve. Why should we put a price on nature? It's a misunderstanding as a whole. And I think when we look at how we function as a society, there's always some funding that's, so we already mentioned it costs money to create an MPA. So there's already a financial indicator there. Let's make sure that it's a two-way street. We're not saying, hey, you know what, let's put a price on everything. Let's put everything on the market. That's not what we're saying. What we're saying is that We have to incorporate the protection of the ecosystem into a system that we all understand, regardless of language, and that language is finance. Tell me more about that. Well, I mean, you know, you and I, we get up in the morning and we go to work. Why do we go to work? We have to have money. Why do we need money? To survive and do things. To eat, to do things, yes. And so, if we didn't have that, and it was a perfect world, what would you do? That's a good question, right? I mean, I would go to the beach.

Fed DeGobbi: Yeah.

Jeremy McKane: I would go swimming with the whales all the time. I know there's a lot of things that we wouldn't do, but we have constructed this system. And the only way forward is to work with what we currently have. If we try to fight what is there that is much bigger than all of us, then we're not going to be successful. So let me give you an example. If I were to tell you that I want everyone to be conservationists, you would say, oh great, yeah, me too. I want everyone. But in reality, that's not going to happen. We all know it. So would it be much better to meet people where they are, to actually have a conversation and say, hey, we understand that you're a spreadsheets kind of person. Let me show you what the value of protecting nature actually looks like on a spreadsheet. And so that's the work of my colleague, Dr. Ralph Shami, He's a former IMF assistant director, and he's the one that's put together this entire framework. That's not my job. My job is the technology, is to bring in, we measure billions and billions and billions of ocean measurements every single month, and we use an AI stack that we developed over the last two years to really determine what is happening, where are the anomalies, and how can we address those anomalies before they become the next major catastrophe? And that is interesting both on a conservation angle, but it's even more interesting when we talk about risk assessment and we talk about financial products. Because if you're an investor of those things, you're going to want to know what those risks are. Because the same reason if you bought Microsoft stock or Intel stock and all of a sudden it started tanking, you're going to want to know why it tanked. What were the reasons for it? What are the things leading up to it so you can make informed decisions? Right now, without this data, you cannot make informed decisions on investing into the ecosystem. And we solve that problem.

Fed DeGobbi: And it sounds like, you know, from the conversations I've heard yet today, it sounds like risk is the biggest thing at the moment in terms of investing in the ocean.

Jeremy McKane: Risk is the one thing that keeps us all awake at night, regardless of what it is. Is somebody going to break into our car? Will our money in our bank still be there when we wake up in the morning? Risk is the inevitable thing that we all fight.

Fed DeGobbi: Look, if you could have a big billboard here, for free, this morning, for everybody to look at, what would you put on? Wow, that's a great question. I borrowed it, so I can't even take the credit.

Jeremy McKane: Okay, okay. You know, I think I would ask a simple question. What is the value of your breath? And I ask that question because we take every breath for granted. The ecosystem does all of these things, provides us food, provides us clean air, and we think it's for free. but it's not. There's nothing in life that is free. And if we continue to take something without recognizing that, we will be sorely mistaken. So ask everybody the question, how much is your breath worth?

Fed DeGobbi: I like that. Is there anything else that you want to talk about or a call to action message?

Jeremy McKane: Yeah, I mean, I can share with you something that we're actively deploying right now. So we have our amazing partners in the British Virgin Islands. If you've never been there, you must go. It is a small country, but it is a country that is very forward thinking when it comes to nature, nature first. So we're actively working on a pilot with them to create what we think will be the first real nature-based economy. And that's an economy on the protection of the ecosystem versus the extraction of its resources. And so we're really proud to not only work with the British Virgin Islands on this, but we're collaborating directly with the UNDP on ways that we could scale this beyond. So when we look at this product, it's more like, hey, how can we look at nature create a market, create permanence when it comes to MPAs. But the most important thing that we always forget about is capacity building. How do we build capacity in each country working with the university so that when kids go to university, they learn these things, stay in their country, and hopefully get paid what they're worth. So we're working on a program with the BVI to do this. We're always looking for people who are passionate about this idea, because we want to take this to over 150 countries. And so if there's somebody out there that says, hey, I'm a philanthropist or I'm a technologist, I would love to hear from them and find ways to collaborate. And I am of the belief. that even if you might think that we compete in ideas, I will challenge you on that. Because there are always something that maybe you can do better than me and maybe something I can do better than you. And if we're honest and open about that, then that's when true collaboration can take place. And I would close with this. In 1980s, I guess it was 1980s, or maybe it was 1990, When Voyager was leaving the solar system, Dr. Carl Sagan said, let's turn the cameras back towards Earth, and let's take a photo. Turn them on and take a photo. Took a photo, and that photo became known as the pale blue dot. And here was a little pixel. and a little sunbeam in the middle, and that was us. Everything, as he said in his poem, Pale Blue Dot, everything that we've ever known, every history, every, you know. But the key thing that I always think about in this story, and if you haven't heard this, anyone listening, please go listen to Carl Sagan. He's far more eloquent than I am. But in that poem, he says that people have spilt blood and fought to be momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. And I think that's why we are where we are right now is because we're trying to be a momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. If we're going to solve the issues relating climate change in our oceans, we have got to find a way to work together and stop creating lines in the sand. So I'm here to find ways to work with people, even if it's unconventional, to say, you know what? We are one spaceship Earth. We are one pale blue dot. Let's find a way to work together. Fantastic. How can people get in touch? You can email me if you want, ceo at ocn.ai. It's really easy to remember. And then also our website is www.ocn.ai. Excellent. Thanks so much, Jerry. Thanks for having me on your show. It was so much fun.

Fed DeGobbi: So improvised and serendipitous.

Jeremy McKane: Loved it.