How to Steward Your Worship Team Beyond the Stage with Jonathan "J Dubb" Wolliston

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Jonathan Wolliston is back, also known as "Jdubb". In today's episode, Jonathan will share his journey as music director at Calvary Christian Center and lessons on stewardship, mentorship, and building real connections within a worship team. We discuss leadership decisions, including vetting processes, eliminating midweek rehearsals, and fostering community through small groups, as well as an insight into what inspired his upcoming book and his investment in the next generation of church musicians.

Legacy United Music

The Worship Keys Website

Transcript

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Well guys, welcome back to the Worship Keys podcast today, part two with Jonathan Williston, J Dub, as you're known for. Welcome back to the podcast, man. Yeah, thanks for having me again. This has been really fun. Uh, last week we had a rundown of the new. Music that you've been producing for? Yeah. Your ministry, you've been at Calvary. Yeah. Calvary Christian Center in Ormond Beach, Florida. Uh, apostle Jim Rail is our lead pastor and Pastor Don Raley is his wife. Um, you know, their, their family is involved in ministry as well. So my, uh, music pastor is his daughter, Courtney Rail. Incredible songwriter, worship leader. Um, so we just have an incredible team at Calvary, so it's an honor to serve as the music director there. Come on man. That's awesome. I'm sure they're very happy to have you there. You and your wife, your wife is on staff as well at the church, and, uh, incredible man. Um, last week you might remember, if you guys were, were here last week as well, we talked a little bit about, um, your setup, your rig, your production, uh, what you do in Pro Tools, some patches, key key Escapee, world Omnisphere, ob. Obviously Omnisphere three is out now. Yeah. I hope you guys have been enjoying Omnisphere three. Um. Love the song. The, the single that's out, uh, November 14th. Yep. Sing Praise. What's the name again? Sing Praise. Sing Praise. Yep. Man, it's super catchy. Um, and we talked about basically for how every many keyboards you have on stage. You also have different Bible translations. So that's funny. Today we're kind of getting more of a deeper, serious vibe today as we're talking about, uh, stewardship within music ministry. Oftentimes I'm guilty of it too. We just kind of skim over. Um. Going deep spiritually. Mm-hmm. Even emotionally, mentally, all those things. Um, super important, even as a musician. So I just wanna open this, uh, the floor up to you J Dub. Um, what does stewardship mean to you when it comes to music ministry? Um, for me it means just being consistent and managing, you know, all and any assignments that you've been entrusted with, whether it be small or large. Um, you know, just taking that serious and, um. Just managing it. Well, managing all the assignments, whether you're at a, a smaller church or a large ministry, doesn't matter. Like, you know, what situation or what season you're in, like being able to manage that well. Um, you know, I think that's how you can steward it well. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Tell me examples when you were younger and, well, you said you're first a drummer, right? Yeah, yeah. Started off on drums. Started off on drums, um, grown 'em in church. My parents, uh, were pastors and, um, funny stories that I, I had no intention of playing keys. Okay. Okay. I didn't start playing keys until I was 13. It's not really the cool instrument, right. I mean, drums. Yeah. Drums are cool, you know? Um. But I started off in Keys when I was like 13, 14 years old. Okay. My mom at the time was playing, um, the organ piano for church. You know, it's a small family church. Um, and then my dad, 1, 1 one evening came to me. He is like, well, um, this is gonna be last Sunday that your mom is playing keys. I'm like, okay, cool. We got a new musician. He was like, no, you're gonna learn. And I cried. I was, I was like, no, I don't. I wanna play drums. And I was like, I had no intention of being a keyboard player. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, my mom. Taught me like a few, like basic chords, but you know, she really didn't have a large, like a in depth background in, in. Um, playing keys or anything, any type of professional training. So I'm pretty much self-taught, you know, I've learned a lot from a lot of musicians in, in the central Florida area. Yeah. But no formal training and God has just been really great to me and faithful to me and allowed me to be exposed to like, really incredible musicians and, um. I'm a sponge. I think I told you on my last, on the last episode that I, I'm a forever student, so Love it. Um, although I've been playing for quite some time, like I'm still interested in learning new things, new approaches, so, absolutely. Yeah. Super cool. And I think before we go into the discussion of trying to train and teach others about stewardship, we, we kind of have to holistically look at this and define it and also look where we came from. Right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And like, we love because God first loved us. Mm-hmm. And, um, sometimes we might not have been stewarded well, or, or, uh. Might not have had a mentor, but I assume probably you've had a few mentors maybe over the years, or maybe one Good one. Mm-hmm. Um, let's speak about that kinda like a, a history of your life so far. What mentors have you had in your life, musically speaking and spiritually speaking, that um, really has shaped, uh, who you are today? Yeah, so, um, I do have musicians in my family. So my uncle, his name is Luke Maxwell. He's the one who really. Um, really got me interested or inspired me to play keys once I, you know, the, the mantle was passed to me. Yeah, yeah. You must play now. And voluntary like so. He was the one I looked Yeah. Doesn't jump in. He's the one I, I really looked up to and he taught me so much, even from afar. Um, 'cause he's based out of, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. Um, but I would really look to him as far as like learning how to play behind, you know, singers and people who. May not have like a professional background in singing, they'll just start singing and just expect you to follow them. Right. So that's, that's my grassroots, you know, um, that type of church where you just, someone's just gonna have a testimony and they stand up and they start singing and you just gotta follow them. You gotta find them and you gotta follow them. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I kind of was thrown into the fire, but in a good way 'cause I, it really developed me, developed my air. Um, but he was. One of the main people that got me interested even to production because he was doing a lot of music production with, um, uh, a local Christian band that he was managing and playing for back then. So he really inspired me on the production and the things he inspired me on, the musicianship and just, um, taking it serious, you know, so he was, he played a huge role in my life. And, um, more recently one of my mentors is, uh, John Wiles. Consider him my big brother. Yeah, yeah. But he's played such a huge role in my life. Um, we're not too far in age, but I do look up to him as like a, an older brother as a big brother. And, uh, he's taught me so much, even outside of music, but just when it comes to like relationship and community. Mm-hmm. Um. He's taught me how to really like, look at a person and view them, um, for who they are, even outside of like what they're able to do and what, what they, what they bring to the table. So, um, I try to take that approach even when I'm, um, you know, managing our band and, and, um, leading our teams, you know. Being intentional with, like, checking up on them and doing life with them and not just call them when I need them for service or for, for scheduling or anything like that. Just really being intentional about being in their lives. Um, and I think that's a really, that's really important, um, especially for musicians and creatives because a lot of times we can, you know, we can fall into the trap of. Having our identity, our identity, or being so caught up in identifying ourselves in what we're able to do. In like our, that performance mode. Yes. And only seeing ourself as a keys player. Or a bass player or a drummer, or you know, but you're a whole person before any of that. And more importantly, you're a child of God, you know? So just being able to identify yourself in that way. You know, John has really helped open up my eyes to that, especially when it comes to ministry, because like I said, you can really get into like the, you know, the routine of just like, okay, Sunday's coming. Gotta get ready, gotta get ready, and that's all you're focusing on, but you're not really considering like other things and like developing yourself as a believer, as a Christian, right. Um, being a disciple and um, you know, so all those things. John has really helped me open up my eyes to just ministry outside of just, um, playing my instrument. You know, being intentional about developing relationships. So good. Yeah. So, and you mentioned it right when you said that last bit is developing relationships outside of just the usefulness, right? Yes. Of the instrument. Talk a little bit about that and why it's easier said than done. Mm-hmm. Why do so many churches struggle with this, and why is it so hard to actually implement? Why do you. I think it's, I think some churches struggle with it because, you know, unfortunately that becomes the priority is just filling, fulfilling that role. And that in a lot of, in a lot of times we're, we're task driven and task oriented. So like as long we have that covered, we're good, but we really don't consider like, okay. How's that person doing? Like, are they struggling in a certain area? And even, like, a lot of times we don't even talk about it, but like, are they struggling in sin? Yeah. Like are they dealing with something that no one else knows, but you see them, you know, playing or ministering in church on a Sunday, but you have no idea. Like they really have a struggle. Absolutely. And um, so that's, I think it's, it's. It's challenging because it requires a little bit more than just scheduling them off or checking 'em off a list. It requires intentionality. It requires you actually spending time with them and just, you know, doing life with them and that takes time. Mm-hmm. You know, and a lot of times, um, we're, we're not, it's uncomfortable and we're not willing to take that time to like invest into somebody. So, um, I feel like. You know, being intentional about that is really gonna help, um, specifically in your music ministry, it's gonna help grow that music ministry and help develop a, a healthy culture in that music ministry. Totally. So, um, but yeah, that's, that's, that's my take on it. And, um, and I know there's a lot of churches that have struggled, um, with that, but I do see, and I'm blessed to be a part of a church that, you know, that thrives in, in community, it thrives in building a healthy culture and, um. You know, so it's not, um, it's not all bad, you know, you know, I, I believe there's, there's a lot of room for growth and there's no perfect church, but I believe the more we do things like this, we talk about it. Yeah. And, um, I think it's gonna help inspire those who have, you know, you know, power to make decisions and have leadership roles in church to really consider how important these conversations are. Totally. Yeah. What do you think is easier to actually have in a church a. Super talented and tight band, or like a super holy and tight knit community. Yeah. Yeah. In a band. Yeah. What's harder to actually, to think they're, they're both hard. Yeah. What's actually harder and what's actually more important? Yeah. Um, I feel like two things can be true at the same time and they can, they can coexist. Um, so. I don't know what would, what would be actually harder. And it, it's all, there's some nuance to it because it depends on like, you know, your region, like where your church is, you know, you might be in an area where there's a ton of musicians, so you're not gonna struggle finding talent. There's talent there, right? You might struggle having those guys be consistent in their walk and you know, just being transparent, like. You know, just 'cause you're talented doesn't mean that, that you're really walking the life as a, as a Christian and being an example, uh, um, and protecting your witness as a Christian. So there might be a challenge there. And I feel like overall, I would say personally, the most important thing is having a tight knit community and having a group of people, um. Who are committed to the house. And committed to Christ, first of all, first and foremost, but also committed to the house and serving and everything else as far as like, uh, talent and ability and all that kind of stuff. You know, that's stuff that you can learn. You know, if you're around the right people, you know, I didn't start off as a talented musician. Like I was terrible when I started say, right. Yeah. Like, I was not good. I was not good. And I was, and I'll be the first to admit that I was the transposing king. Like no one can out transpose me. Like I just knew where to go and, um, you know, but as I began to like Take my assignment serious and the ability and the skills that God has given me, the natural abilities that he's given me and the ear for music. I began to take it serious. I'm like, Hey, no, I can, I can learn these keys, you know, if I, and my whole thing and just a, a sidebar when it comes to, and I'm not condemning guys who you know. Transpose or who struggle with playing in all their keys. You know, you gotta start somewhere. But what what helped me was, um, in a real world situation. I didn't have a keyboard at the time when I was playing out and I had to play a piano and I, there's no transpose button on a right acoustic, so I had to learn and, you know, so what encouraged me too though, I just changed my perspective of like, if I'm able to play, say in the QFC. If you can play in one key, you can play in all key. Everything is muscle memory, so you just have to identify the finger in. Right, right, right. And then, uh, and dive deep into like the theory of why you're playing. Don't just play or use your ears or use your muscle memory. You know, give each key, you know, they're already named. So just identifying new and know where you know what you're playing and just practice a hundred percent, you know. So just wanna encourage musicians, um, especially keyboard players like. You can get out of that rut of that cycle of transposing. You don't have to transpose, just put the time in, put the work in and you'll get there. Um, but like I said, I, I did not start off as a great musician. Um, but you know, I put the time in and, um, over time I got better, you know. Um, but when it comes to, I know you were talking about like, um, when it comes to like culture or what's more important, um, when it comes to the music ministry or having like. Really talented to musicians versus, uh, a group of guys who are just committed to the ministry and, and have great community. Um, I. Obviously the, for me, obviously the, the community part is more important for me. Um, the talent, like I said, you can get there and if you have the time and the patience and you have the right team around you to help build up those musicians, I feel like that has more value rather than just hiring a bunch of incredible musicians. Because if you're just a hiring, then, um, you're always opportunity driven, and that's not good for a ministry. That's not good for any organization. But if you have people who are just here for the next opportunity, that means once things dry up or if things doesn't turn out the way that they're expecting or if there's any type of conflict, they're out the door. Yeah. Their, their roots are not dug into the ministry and they're not. They're not planted there. So it's important to really invest into people who actually want to be there. You know what I mean? Yeah. They wanna be there. They have, they have skill. You see potential in them. Totally. And it's up to you as a leader to take the time to invest into build them up. Absolutely. Yeah, so practically speaking at a church about stewardship, it's easy to kind of hyper romanticize this idea and like, yeah, we need to sing Kumbaya and eat dinner together every night and our families need to come over and we need to do house, church every night. Mm-hmm. You know, it doesn't really happen all that way. Um, practically speaking in a church, what does that look like? Um. Even just for you guys. Mm-hmm. And how could other churches start, start to implement something, a system that's better? I mean, anything that's formulaic is never gonna be truly authentic. Mm-hmm. But what kind of systems can people put in place? And there's, I know that's a, that's one big question. Mm-hmm. But also I want you to hit on how. As musicians, whether you are the person that needs mentorship and Stu and, and uh, needs someone else to come alongside you, or you are the person who are, who is mentoring. Mm-hmm. Um, how can pride get in the way those two things systems. Then how pride can be a block. I'll start off with systems. What we do at Calvary, we are heavy into groups, like small groups, and we call it disciple groups. So we encourage, like everyone, everyone on staff, everyone who attends the church, we just put it out there to everyone to join a small group, join a disciple group. I actually lead a, a men's disciple group, discipleship group. Um, so we encourage our teams, our musicians, our singers, everyone just get plugged in and don't. Don't allow your only connection to the, to the ministry to just be about music. Yeah. You know, because that can, if, if you're not careful, that can become an idol. Totally. You know, and you can find your identity in that rather than your identity in Christ and your worship in that position. Or you just, you just think that, oh, just being on stage is what I'm here to do, is to perform. Mm-hmm. And that's not, um, that's not what we're about, you know. Um, so as far as systems, yeah, definitely. I would encourage musicians and churches, um, encourage your, your musicians and your singers to get plugged into whatever small groups, whatever discipleship, um, programs or groups that you guys have at your church or your ministry. That's one way of building community. That's one way of, um, having accountability and discipleship. Um, and it also gets your mind off of just in performance mode. Totally. Totally. I think that's the biggest thing. Um, because we're, that's easy for us. We're like, we're musicians. We're, it's easiest for us to go there. But, um, putting us in a different setting where we have to, you know, be a little bit more vulnerable, you know, and talk about life, talk about our struggles, talk about our wins, talk about things that are going on our life and, and being able to be vulnerable and allow people. That you respect and you trust to pour into you and encourage you. So yes, that's, that's on the systems end. Love it. And then, um, on the other side, you were saying about, um, remind me of the, the second part, uh, how pride or arrogance might be a hindrance. How does that play out? Yeah. As far as, uh, mentorship? Yeah. Um, pride will definitely kick in because, you know, sometimes, you know, just to be honest, sometimes you. Even with social media and you put yourself out there and you, you know, show your little videos of you playing and all that kind of stuff. You got all these likes and people are encouraging. Right, right. You think you're hot stuff. Exactly. You think you're the guy, you're I'm him. Yeah. I'm the guy. Yeah. But, um, you know, and so in your mind you feel like you don't need mentorship, you know, and that's, that's definitely a trick of the enemy as well, to think that you've arrived. So you have to definitely approach it as a believer. It's your job to be aware of that and it's wise for you to be aware of like areas in your life where you're not showing humility and the mentorship is a great way of you getting back in line, uh, to receive constructive critique. Yeah. And, and just showing that like, Hey, I'm not above correction. I'm not above, you know, being able to. Learn new things, you know, and I always go back to what, what I said previously about being a, a forever student and a sponge. You know, like mm-hmm. I always wanna learn, like I'm never at that place where, and I never wanna be at that place where I can't receive like, something new. Even if it's from someone that that's younger than me or has less experience. Like, you can always learn something new. Totally. Um, and that's what keeps you fresh in my opinion. That's what keeps you fresh. So, um. Yeah, don't allow pride to get in the way. You know, humble yourself, you know, and find there's good people out there, you know, find good mentors. Um, I've taken upon myself, and I'm not like an outgoing person, but I've really felt that the Lord is in this season has called me to, like, mentor some of the youth at my church, some of the younger musicians. So I've, um, I've made that a priority and it's as simple as, 'cause I also cut hair, um, getting into that too. So. Sometimes I'll just cut some hair. Looks great, man. Thanks man. Right on point. I appreciate it. So like what I'm doing now is just some of the guys that I'm mentoring, I cut their hair and just, you know, it's a safe. It's a safe time to like, uh, talk into their lives. 'cause they're, if they're trusting you with your hair, then you can, you can give them some advice. That's right. Like you're, you're, you're kind of in control, so they're not gonna Yes, yes. They're at least gonna listen to you, so. Right, right, right, right. Right. You know, but all seriousness, like that's an, I use that opportunity to encourage some of our, some of our youth and just see how they're doing, how they're doing in life. You know, what's, what's in their mind, what are their goals, and just kind of like really pour into them and then just give them an opportunity to zoom out a little bit. 'cause a lot of times, you know, um, millennials, gen Zs, and like we, we, we, we view life through like a microscope. And everything just becomes so big to us, like, oh, this situation that I'm dealing with, da da. Right? But like sometimes it's good to kind of hear someone, others, someone else's perspective and zoom out a little bit and just see like, okay, it's not all bad. You know, there's some good that I can learn. There's something I can learn from this lesson or this situation. So. I like to be that voice and, uh, in some of these guys live and, and, um, I believe it's a blessing to them. And they, they, they tell me and they, and they receive it. It's well received, so. Totally. Yeah. That's awesome, man. Cutting hair. That's great. Uh. I want to ask a, a more of a controversial question. It's not that deep, but, well, I guess it can be that deep, but with some, some churches have an extreme process of you need to go to these five classes for five weeks mm-hmm. And need to complete this 20 page packet. Yeah. And you need to do, you know, these certain lunches with the senior pastor for whatever, and they have all these requirements before you even step on stage. Right. Yeah. Or sometimes it's just a simpler thing and it's not as drawn out. Um, whether it's it's some classes or, or some dinners or some, some mentorships with the leader, whatever it may be. What is your perspective personally? Mm-hmm. And you've been in ministry for a while now. Um, do you think there should be. A requirement to be to profess the name of Jesus for one and have a fruit check where you're actually living out the life of, of a Christian before you're put up on stage as the drummer. And I say drummer because it, it typically is always drummers drummer. Like I, I know a lot of saved drummers, so I love y'all drummers. There's not all, all drummers are not heathens. Right. I know y'all get a bad rap. The drummers. Yes. But do you think it's, uh, it's a requirement to totally vet them in a system or just would you. Yeah. How, how lenient are you when it comes to that? Mm-hmm. That thought process. Do you, do you say throw 'em up there and we'll work on 'em like during the months and it's a ministry for us that they're up here playing, like, yeah. What do you think about this hole? Oh man, that's a great question. There's so much nuance. That's probably gonna be a chapter in my book. Oh, come on. That's good, man. Come on. That is really good. But, um, I feel like there's nuance. There's nuance to it, and every church and every ministry is different. So I can only speak from my experiences and from my experience and with the leadership, um, at the church, I feel like they use a lot of wisdom in setting those, setting those standards. And um, and there's nothing wrong with vetting. You know, the vetting process is, is important. And that's with any organization, any type of business, you're gonna vet who you're bringing in, of course, because um, although we are representatives of Christ, we're also representing like our local church too. So we have to be wise in doing that and how we're putting people, um, on stages and giving them opportunities. And, um, I think the VE process is important. Um, but it can, it can vary depending on like the church and the ministry and the demand, but I think it, it is important. I think it, every church should have some type of process. Mm-hmm. And we shouldn't let just anybody who has a desire or who has the skill to just be on the stage. Because if we do that, then technically it's just a gig. Yep. Yep. So when we vet, we're saying, okay, this is not a gig. We honor your, your gifts and your talents, but we see you, we see you more than your, your ability and what you can bring to the table. We're vetting you because we want to hold you accountable on what you profess as your, um. As your walk with the Lord as a Christian, and we should be checking each other like we're called to it. Right. You know, so I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Um, you know, some churches may be a little bit more lenient than others. Some churches may be a little bit more strict and have more requirements. We do have a veteran process at Calvary, and I think it's important because we've dodged a lot of bullets, for lack of a better word. Yeah. Whoa. What's your vetting process there? So we have, and it's with, this is across the board with all of our, um. Ministries, but we have this thing called across the keyboard, across the keyboard, all 88 keys. So we have this thing called Growth Track. So it's um, it's a four week process, but you're, during those four weeks, you take classes and then you, um, one, you learn about the ministry, but also more importantly, you learn about yourself. You learn about like, you know, what God has put inside of you that you can use to help, um, reach others in the ministry. So, awesome, awesome. It's very empowering. So it's not about like what you can do for the church? No. It's like identify your purpose. Awesome. Like this is why, why are you here? Why did the Lord lead you to this church? That's good. So that, that's within those four weeks, you identify that you learn the culture of the church. So by the time you graduate and we make a really big deal about graduating from Grove Track. Oh, awesome. Because it is a big deal. Like you, you're not just like a member of the church. Like you're not just a number, but you are a part of a family, like a growing church. Mm-hmm. So, and um. Because you're a part of a family, you're not just like warming a pew or warming a seat. Like you're, you're moving. We're functioning, we're working together. Yeah. Um, so you identify what area you feel that you can, um, you can, um, serve in, uh, and if you have any like musical background or skill. Then after Growth Track, we have another process. Like we, we have, uh, online. Auditions for singers and our musicians. So we've, we've made it very simple. They just follow a link. They, they select whatever instrument they play. We have some songs that they, they can audition remotely. Send us the video. Oh, remote. Y'all are all about the remote stuff over there, man. Yeah. So we do that and it's just a lot easier for everyone. 'cause you know, people's schedules are different, you know, so. You know, them being able to do it like on their own time, record their videos, put their best audition together, send it in. And I know it sounds weird saying the word audition for church, that sounds kind of crazy. But because we run at a such a high level and our, our mantra and like our, our, our motto at church is. Um, excellence is our minimum standard, so we wanna make sure like we're putting out excellence. And so, you know, we, there is a vet process where that just because you have a desire to play, you know, an instrument, like do you have the background, do you have the chops? Like are you gonna be a weak link? Like, and it sounds. Pretty critical. But it's important because the last thing you want to do in a worship setting is become a distraction. Mm. Yeah. For someone who's experiencing Or is trying to go deeper in their walk with the Lord. You don't want to be playing, and I say this jokingly, but you don't wanna be playing in the wrong key outta tune. Right. You know, you're literally becoming a distraction in a worship experience. Absolutely. So that's why we use the word audition. That's why we say, uh, we have vetting processes because we really wanna protect that process. That's good. Um. But yeah, so after the, after you go through Growth Track, you do your audition video, we check it out, our team checks it out, and then we reach out to them. And that's pretty much it. It's nothing too complicated or too challenging, but I really feel we've done this successfully and. I feel like by doing this that we've, um, avoided a lot of issues, um, and we've been very clear on like what our expectations are, so that's good. I think it's a good thing to have. Do you think it's more pivotal for the person, the musician, on stage to get vetted like that more than the production person? Ooh. Ooh. These are good questions, man. These are good. Um, I'm not sure. I would say it's more pivotal. I think it's a little bit more obvious because the person who's on stage is on camera and then the, you know, people are seeing them. Right, right. So, um, in a sense you have to use wisdom like you have to. Both need to be vetted. Let me just say that both, like whether you're doing stuff behind the scenes, no one sees you on this, or you're imag in a different room. Yeah. You, you need to make sure you're not out here living wild, you know? Right, right, right, right. And saying that you're representing Christ because one, like I said, you most importantly, you have to protect your witness as a believer. Right. You know, that's what we have. Like, you don't want anyone to say, oh, I thought that the worst thing that someone can say to you is, oh, I thought you were a Christian. Yeah, yeah. Like that's offensive that right? Absolutely. Like, you should never want anyone to say that to you. So you, you need to protect your witness. So you need to be living right. You know, not perfect, but you need to live a consecrated life. Yeah. Yeah. So to answer that, yes, whether you're on stage or backstage or on a camera or you're not in front of a, a live audience, um, it's important that you're living a, a life that honors God. Um, I don't see. That one matters more than the other. Obviously, like I was saying, like as far as people viewing you, you can recognize, like for me example, not that I'm famous or anything like that, but our, our city is pretty small and we have a, uh, we have a. A Poplar gas station called Bucky's. Yeah. So I went to Bucky's. I shop to Bucky's. Went to Bucky's one day right after church. And you know, I went to, we were pumping gas and I went inside to grab like a little snack, whatever mind in my business. All, all of a sudden I hear, Hey, Calvary keyboard, just somebody yelled at outta nowhere over cute. Like clearly I don't know my name. They don't even know J Dub, which is super easy to remember. Come on. Um, they're like, so it's so they recognize me. The point I'm trying to make is they see me on stage. So it's not like it's cause your haircut maybe. Uh, well that part, they, they recognize someone on stage so they're seeing you. So it's important that as you're moving around the city, like you're not just representing yourself. So, um, totally. So yeah, it's, it's important. So going back to the whole vetting process, um, it's important like. If you're connected to a ministry, you know, you're also representing that ministry totally. Whether you like it or not. If you've been entrusted with a position and people actually are seeing you and recognizing you, you need to make sure that you're living a life that honors God and that you're being a great representation, uh, great representation of that, that local ministry. That's good. Even if. Someone might not even see that you're doing the work for, for the service. Mm-hmm. It's still important to get vetted. It's, I, I feel personally, my, I feel it's important to get vetted. Um, and it look, like I said, vetting can look different for every church, you know, but I. I think one of the important things with vetting is just seeing like what the person's intentions are and just kind of establishing expectations on both sides. Right, right, right. Like, why are you here? Yes. And obviously we're talking about the people that are serving Yeah. To make the service happen. Yes, for sure. Um, because obviously if you start getting down this big, uh, dis uh, rabbit trail, rabbit hole, whatever, um, obviously you're not vetting all of the. Uh, any, any janitor or any, uh, staff or anything Mm. That you ever, that the church ever pays out or even welcomes in, right? Mm-hmm. Um, because for some reason, my, my, my, my mind, my mind immediately went to those, uh, guys who are, who are doing the remote recording, uh, remote mixing for you guys. Mm-hmm. Like, are y'all, are y'all vetting those people that are mixing remotely? No, probably not. Butt, we vet everything that moves. Everything that's in everything that's moving. We're vetting them. No, no. No, that's cool. No, but I get what you're saying. It's a great, that's a really great, great question. And I think it's important to have these kind of type of, uh, conversations because, you know, you know, sometimes we can overlook these things and we end up paying for it in the long run. Totally, totally. You know, um, but, uh, I think it's important to, you know. Make sure you're clear on the expectations from every level. For ev, every ministry, every level, just be open and clear, especially for musicians too, that are approaching churches or, or are being approached by churches and ministries. And you know, a lot of the taboo things these days are about, you know, getting paid, you know? To be paid or not to be paid, volunteer. And it's a whole thing. And, um, it, it's some of the things I'm gonna talk to and touch on, on when I released my book next year. But I think all those things, like they don't need to be taboo. Like we need to talk about it, like let's have healthy conversations about it. Um, but at the end of the day, um, your ministry and what, whatever service that you're providing you're given is unto the Lord first. It needs to be pure and it needs to be unto the Lord first. And what that looks like is, you know, you're giving your absolute best. You know, because God deserves our best. Right, right, right. You know? So, um, and giving him our best, like, it's important that, you know, we're living a life that honors him and pleases him, so Totally. It's not even just about us anymore. So you're automatically kind of auditing yourself, you're looking inwardly like Lord. Whatever I'm doing during the week. Is it honoring you? Like, does it please you? Yes. And when I give you my worship in whatever facet, whatever area that I'm serving in church, um, does that honor you? Mm-hmm. Um, are you, are you, is it pure worship that I'm giving, whether I'm running lights where I let, I'm doing whatever, running sound or on light singing, playing on the band. Like, is this honoring you? Totally. So, totally. That's good stuff, man. Um. You've talked about, I was gonna ask about how, how, what are some practical, practical ways that you've invested into the next generation, younger musicians, but you've talked about your youth group and cutting hair and, um, it's, it's hard to put in that time. It's, it's kind of easy to, to just have a checklist for you. I gotta prepare for Sunday. Mm-hmm. Um, gonna make sure all my four or five keyboards are all online and software's working, the tracks are working, all this stuff like that, and arranging and. Um, producing tracks for your church. I mean, that's kind of the, uh, that's the crux of what you're doing, right? Mm-hmm. That's the big, big stuff. But then those little things, um, especially within the church, we're supposed to be making disciples a hundred percent. And so I love that you've done that. Let's talk about, um, multiplication. Versus just adding things or subtracting things. You talked about the subtractive EQ that you do when you're producing, just kind of taking things away to actually enhance, but let's talk about multiplication. Um, talk about the idea of raising the next generation to be stronger and better than you are. Mm-hmm. And how you're able to, mm-hmm. To, to really do that. Yeah. Um, in humility too. Yeah. I think that's an important thing. Um, and you don't have kids yet, but no kids yet. You're hoping yet you have kids. Mm-hmm. And they'll also Yeah. Our apostle Jim really, he always says is that he wants to be a stage. He doesn't want to be anything that's, um, hindering someone to get to their next level. Mm-hmm. So he's. He's like a great example of just leaving a legacy and just becoming a resource and becoming shoulders that people can stand on. So I, I take that same approach too. And he's not intimidated by, and that's one thing that you have to do, is you have to be secure in yourself enough to know that. You know what? I'm going to, the information that I'm gonna pass down or whatever I'm gonna impart into someone else's life, um, I'm not afraid that they're gonna take my job. Right, right, right. You know what I mean? Because that could be a thing too. Like that could be holding a lot of people back from just pouring into the next generation because they're you. Afraid that they're not gonna be needed anymore. Mm-hmm. So just having that awareness of like, okay, I matter. I still matter. And like what I, what I have has value. And even if it even shifts where like I'm not being called on as much. Like I still. I still want to be remembered as a person that, um, dies empty. Meaning that I don't want to have all this in me, that I don't pass down on someone else. Um, so I think it's important that, you know, that's something that I always. You know, keep on the forefront of my mind that it's not all about me. Like I always want to give back. I always wanna, you know, invest into someone's life because that matters. Someone did, someone did that for me. I wanna pay that forward as well. Yes. So that's good, man. Yeah. I wanna talk about how when you're actually doing ministry, it gets a little messy. And what would you say to that person if they were right here talking with us right now, um, who said. You know, jw I have tried the whole discipleship thing, um, mentoring thing, stewarding my team, trying to do it well. I have, um, been burned by a church leader or maybe as a leader I've been burned by someone I tried to mentor. Um, and it could be a myriad of things, but what if, what if the example was like, you know, actually I got really vulnerable. I, I shared, um, struggles. I shared my story. Um, but yet that leader or that person that I mentored took that weakness and used it against me later. Mm-hmm. Or they publicly humiliated me. Wow. Or they did this, that, or the other. Um, what would you say to that person who, who might have, might be listening to you and that does not believe you? Um. Because of some of the past hurt. Yeah. Yeah. I, I think we, if you've been in church, you've all had some kind of form of the quote unquote, church hurt. Church hurt. Yeah. And we're not, and I don't wanna like, just drive that to the ground. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause I, I believe that we're all human and there's no perfect church. Much to help each other, but what would you say to that person who has maybe tried that, been there, done that, got the t-shirt and mine is saying, uh, didn't quite work for me. J Dub. Yeah. So not to like downplay church hurt or people's experience in church and disappointment, but, uh, and not to make an excuse of it, but we're human. Like, and that's one thing that we first have to come to the table just to understand, like. Because we're human, we are going to get hurt. We may hurt. We have the. Capacity to hurt somebody. And we have the, you know, if we keep living, we're gonna be disappointed eventually. So it's what we do, what's our response? Not necessarily just what our reaction is, but what our response when we deal with that type of conflict or church hurt. And, um, I feel like the best response as a believer is to quickly forgive and don't let it set root in your heart. Uh, and the forgiveness is not even just about. Um, them, it's actually more for you. Yeah. So you can heal and you can move on. Um, and I've experienced that, um, not necessarily through church hurt, but just having to forgive and having to move on from, you know, disappointment, betrayal, and, you know, so I think it's important to, to know that you're, you're going to have to forgive, you're gonna have to use forgiveness, and you have to not allow. The disappointment and the hurt that you've been through to, um, to define you. You know, it's a moment in time that happened and I'm sorry for anyone that has gone through that, but it, life does get better. You know, God is still on the throne. Yes. Yes. You know, he still loves you. He still cares, um, for you and. I believe there's nothing, nothing wasted in life. And, um, I believe even what you've gone through, you can use that as a testimony and you can use that to help encourage someone else. If we talk about discipleship, like that's something that you can use as your testimony to encourage someone else that may be going through the same thing that you've dealt with. So, um. And for those who have like gone through situations in church where they've experienced church hurt or disappointment, you know, just know that we're, we're called to forgive. I'm not saying that we need to make excuses for bad behavior or for what someone has done or mistreated you or mishandled you, but you, you have to. And not within your own strength, but you have to be the bigger person and choose. You have to make a conscious decision to choose to forgive, and in that, that that healing process will begin at forgiveness. Mm. Um, that's good. And, um, steps towards that. Even after that, like, don't always bring it up as, you know, something that you can always refer back to. You know, if it comes up, yeah, you can talk about it, but learn how to forgive and learn how to move forward. Mm-hmm. Move on. Um, and it's easier said than done, but like I've done it, I've experienced it, and I believe I'm in the position where I am right now in life. It's because I chose to forgive. Mm-hmm. And God has literally opened up so many doors, so many opportunities, things that I've been able to do that I have. No qualifications to do it. Like things even beyond my, what I'm qualified to do. God has opened up doors and, and showed me a lot of favor because I chose to forgive. And I really feel that if you really make that a priority to lead with forgiveness and, uh, quickly forgive and move on, um, you'll experience healing, you'll experience joy, and you'll, you'll have what you need to move forward. Love that man. Yeah. Preacher two right here. Okay. Okay. Well, tell us about your new book that you've been writing that hopefully will be ready by 2026. Yeah. Tell us all about this, man. So, um, I'm toying with the, the, the idea of, uh, title it. Kingdom musicians and maybe that, or maybe something along those lines. But the, the premise of the book is, and the whole heart of the book is to, one, encourage the, the local church musicians. Um, so I wanna be able to be an encouragement through some of my experiences, some of the things that I've. Face some of the things I've navigated. I wanna be able to encourage our local church musicians. 'cause I feel like we don't get enough encouragement to those guys and, and girls, um, that, that serve week in and week in, week out at their local church. So just wanna encourage them, um, speak, live into them. Um, kind of share some of what I've experienced in life, but also, um. Uh, the book is gonna talk about some of the taboo things I mentioned about, you know, musicians being paid and should they be paid, or conversations about stipends and all that kind of stuff. I wanna really hit that hard and just kind of talk through my perspective, my experiences. Yeah. And be able to navigate that conversation and those, those, uh, you know, those things in a healthy way and just kind of give. Even pastors in leadership, some context to why musicians may think like that and how we got here, you know, based on my opinion, like how we kind of got to this, where, you know, musicians feel, some musicians feel entitled. Some ministries feel that, um. They should just be freely given their, uh, you know, their services As, you know, just volunteers or every ministry is different. You know, there's no one size if that fits all, but Right. The conversation gets brought up a lot and I feel like it needs to be talked about in a healthy way. Totally. And just to give a little more clarity and context behind it. So we talk about that kind of stuff. Like I said, my experiences, um. Some best prac practices and some, um, even some just practical things. Um, practical life things as musicians, um, that sometimes we don't even consider or we don't think is as important, but just having, um, a healthy relationship with our finances because as musician, especially as a young musician, you see gear and you just go crazy. Like the first, right? You want that north stage four. I gotta, I gotta get it J Dub playing with it. I want that. I gotta get that latest. Plug in that latest guitar pedal, that latest thing, and you know, you shouldn't be sacrificing like some of the. Important things that you need to have in place as a young woman or as a young man, um, in order just to get the latest gear. So, totally. I'm gonna talk about all that kind of stuff, man. I love it, man. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Well, when it comes out, let us know. We wanna post about it and share it, uh, to the Worship Keys community. Absolutely. Um, real quick, we're are concluding this episode. Mm-hmm. And I sound like a preacher again, and we're concluding here. Um, could be another 30 minutes. Absolute. My, uh, just to slip this in. Yeah. My apostle says anytime he preaches, he says, um. I'm getting ready to close. What does that mean? And because he says it so much, everyone says nothing. It's so funny. Like, he's like, I'm getting real to close. What does that mean? Nothing. Nothing. It's so funny. Yeah, so funny. My old band director, it's like rehearse. Rehearse a song or a section of the song. Okay. Uh, it wasn't quite right. Let's do that one more time. Okay. One more time. One more time. One more time, but five more times. Right. But I do wanna talk about the subject of burnout. You know, we do get mm-hmm. Burnout. Um, Jamie Miley with Ascension Worship. He's based out of Jacksonville, Florida. Mm-hmm. And they have the Ascension, um, network, which basically sends and supplies musicians all around the nation to local churches. Nice. Um, of course they don't steal, uh, musicians away or they don't put people out of jobs who are there locally. They kind of vet it like y'all vet people as well. Mm-hmm. But they have a great network of, um, musicians there. But Jamie said in a breakout session at Worship Innovators Conference, he talked about why musicians, um, experience burnout. So let's talk about it. It is a room full of worship leaders and musicians, and he had four or five reasons, but a few of them, um, one was that they felt like they never connected with the worship leader for what? Mm-hmm. And that's a huge thing. So if, if there's a disconnect between. That musician. It's like you might think as the leader, oh, that musician doesn't really wanna talk that much, but maybe he's waiting on you to initiate it because you're the leader. Mm-hmm. So let that be an encouragement to you guys. Like continue to, even if you feel like you've tried to press through a few times, but didn't get, just keep trying. Because as a leader, sometimes it takes a few at bats to, to break through to someone who's on your team. But that was a big thing. Another thing, um, which was controversial. Uh, but he said, we need to stop. We need to eliminate so many, like, um. Drawn out midweek rehearsals. Hmm. And he said, this is a huge one, is that sometimes your midweek rehearsal, like if you're just doing the same three or four songs that you've been doing for years, like, like, you know, what a beautiful name, goodness of God, and all these things, you know, I trust in God and you just all these easy songs that are just a few chords. And there's no hit. There's no hits. Now the, the single that y'all have, November 14th, that band. Probably you, you should probably lock in and make sure you get those hits and get those. You should really like rehearse that pretty tightly. Yeah. If it's a song like that. Uh, but some songs, you know, you've played 'em so often and they're in your repertoire and, and you understand you don't necessarily need that three or four hours every single Thursday night. Yeah. So try to find a way to eliminate, um, the time constraint and the time demand. Outside of the Sunday. Mm-hmm. Um, and he's, he thought that was, do y'all have midweek rehearsal? We don't. That's a great point. That's a, that's a really great solution. Um, we used to have Thursday night rehearsals. Um, we transitioned a few years ago, um, to eliminating that and just having rehearsals on Sunday mornings. Okay. Sounds crazy, but. What we do now is we, we make sure we supply all the resources ahead of time to our teams. So our band and our singers have the music ahead of time during the week with Planning Center. Um, if, if they're scheduled for that week, they know what's coming. So we provide like the, um. Individual, like vocal parts like tenor, alto, soprano. Yeah. Yeah. We give them those parts so they can study and learn. We give them, uh, the stems, like the mix of the stems so they can be familial familiar, like how the stems are gonna play out on Sunday and with the musicians. What I've been doing, uh, recently is I put all of our musicians on, um. Rehearsal tracks with multi-tracks. So we can literally just listen to all the stems, they can hear their part, have 'em also on chart builder so they can actually do like a mix minus of their part, and then they can actually play along with, you know, uh, the songs, um, that they're gonna be scheduled to play on Sunday. I feel like that's been really helpful and it's been a great, a game changer for us. us Awesome. Um, and that way it actually puts the responsibility back on the, the team rather than 'cause honestly, sometimes. People would come to rehearsals. Not even knowing the music. Yeah. Yeah. And growing up, like as I, I have a little bit of a music theory background. Like I, I played Alto Saxon in, um, okay. Middle school. I played drums in middle school. So our, our, uh, instructor would always say, when you come, when we have rehearsal, this is not practice. You practice at home. Right, right. When you rehearse, you rehearse what you've already practiced. Yes. So he said. Don't come here trying to fig asking me about these parts. Like you should know the parts you should ask me about, like dynamically, how should I approach this as this piano mezzo forte or like forte, like ask me those kind of questions but don't ask me about the part that means you didn't study, you didn't, right, you didn't learn your parts. So absolutely by doing this that we put the responsibility back on our team to like study their parts and learn their parts on their own. They have all the resources and they can do it within their own time. Um, and then on Sunday mornings. Pastor Courtney has, uh, the singers in her office for an hour, and then I have the musicians on stage with me for an hour, and then we come together at the end of that and we do a full run through. Oh, awesome. Um, so that's our process. It's, it's been working for the past couple years and we really like it. And it's, it's been really good. It's been a really, uh, big game changer for us. But I think what you, what that pastor or what that minister said to you was a great, uh, some great insight as far as. Having drawn out rehearsals and especially on songs that are very familiar and they're very easy, that could easily be, um, done, uh, at home, you know, and the music director can, you know, check in with the band and just like, Hey, let's listen through this whole thing, any questions. Right. You know, just make it very practical rather than having people come out for a long rehearsal. Totally. And you're taking time away from family. From family, yeah. And everything like that. Some, the, the argument is, well, uh, more time means. That the band's going to naturally be better, which that's actually false. Like, if you're doing the same mm-hmm. Bad habits over and over again, it's, you're not gonna be better as a band. And the argument of, well, it just means we get to see each other or pray each other, pray with each other, um, more often. And that can be true. It's like, well, if that's true, just, just have a, a church sponsored dinner where you're just Absolutely, yeah. Have a dinner for an hour every Thursday night. Mm-hmm. Instead of your three hour rehearsal. A two hour rehearsal. Right. Which feels like it's dragging on. And let's be real. I mean, most of those rehearsals, sometimes they get a little, um. It gets a little tight in the air, it gets a little, uh, uneasy sometimes. And if you haven't gotten, you didn't get that, that build for the third time we did that on that bridge, or you didn't cut out right here. You know, it starts to get a little rocky sometimes. Right. So it's, it's not always super over-sized. Like some people put it like, oh, this is like such a big team building thing. Sometimes it's just a huge waste of time. It can be. Yeah, it could be. It definitely can be. Mm-hmm. But anyway, man, I just wanna know your thoughts. That's amazing. So you've eliminated Thursday night. Rehearsals. Yes. And just show up on Sunday more prepared. Mm-hmm. And, uh. And you haven't really seen, you've seen progress in, in that? I've seen progress in it. Anytime. We'll do, like any type of midweek rehearsal, it'll be for like a Christmas production or just something special that we're doing. Totally. That requires a little bit more like hands-on, like let's talk through things or if we're creating music together, 'cause we, we write original music, we might have a day where we just come in and just kind of brainstorm our workshop. Some, some thoughts and ideas. But as far as our week to week Sunday experiences. Um, we, we make sure we provide all the resources they need and like I said, we leave it on the team to, and that's another way of us checking in and holding them accountable. Perfect. You know, um, rather than just showing up to rehearsal. 'cause just 'cause you showed up doesn't mean that you, you put in the work and at least listening to the song. 'cause sometimes. That'll be the first time they listen to the song that's scheduled for Sundays at rehearsal. Right. You seen, seen that reel where it's like the drummers in the car is like on the way to church gig and didn't realize that, oh my gosh, this intro had so many hits and things like, I'm listening to the first time and I'm stressing because this mm-hmm. Is a little more complex than I thought. Yeah. Uh, my gosh. Well, JEV, thanks for being on the podcast, man. Two weeks, man. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much. Hope you guys enjoyed, um, listening and watching on YouTube or, yeah. Wherever you're, uh, wherever you are right now, let us know in the comments if, uh, you enjoyed hearing from jw. Many of you probably know and love jw. If you're in Florida, uh, go see him in person. And, um, where in Florida are you again? Um, so it's Ormond Beach and it's. It's right outside of Daytona Beach. Okay. Right outside of day Daytona Beach. It's literally next door to Daytona Beach. Very nice beach. Go beach. Go visit, uh, Cal Beach Calvary Christian Center, Calvary Christian Center. And then if you see um, JW and Buckys, you can be like, yo Calvary key player. Keep Calvary Key. Calvary Key. Calvary Key. Oh, cool man. Thanks for coming on the pod. We'd to have you in the future. Um, we're gonna link the. Brand new single from your church. Um, it's already out now by the time this episode's airing, so definitely listen to that. It's gonna be fun. Um, listened to it last, last week here on the pod, but it's officially out