How to Navigate Challenging Church Leadership with Tyler Richardson

Watch On YouTube

Carson Bruce sits down with Tyler Richardson to discuss navigating challenging dynamics in church leadership. Tyler shares insights from his ministry experience and his book How to Survive Working for God, offering practical wisdom on handling burnout, difficult leadership situations, and supporting a vision that may not always be your own. This conversation encourages worship leaders, church staff, and ministry volunteers to approach leadership with wisdom, resilience, and hope while building healthy relationships and sustaining a long-term calling in ministry. Don’t miss this honest and encouraging conversation. 

Tyler Richardson

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Worship Keys podcast. My name is Carson Bruce. We talk all things music theory, gear, industry, and ministry for your worship keys playing. I'd like to thank Aerospace Audio for being a sponsor of this episode. They create unique. Incredible high quality atmospheric drone pads to be used for your worship services, productions, songwriting sessions, whatever it may be. They have an analog physical drone pedal that they call atmosphere. There's actually a version three out. They also have a MIDI end capability, so you can work in tandem with Ableton Live. Or any other dog that you have to be able con to control everything through that ecosystem. Or if not the physical analog pedal. They also have an iOS app that you can run the pad straight from your iPhone or iPad. It's called Aero Pads. Definitely check them out, aerospace audio.com and let's get into today's episode. Hey guys. Welcome back to the Worship Keys podcast. My name is Carson Bruce, and I am so excited for today's episode. Been a long time, I would say friend, but I'm not a friend. I'm just, uh, an acquaintance and a fan online. We're friends now. Oh, we're friends now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Y'all please give it up for Tyler Richardson. If you know and love him. Please let us know in the comments where you're listening from, how you know Tyler. Uh, we're gonna be talking about on today's episode how to actually navigate, um. Challenging church leadership dynamics. Absolutely. And that is, there's a lot of nuance there. Tons of nuance, a lot of rabbit trails. You know, you almost think that there could be a book or a course or a whole series of this. Yes, exactly. And boy, do we have a option for you? Do we have an option? Come on. On man. Yes. Yeah, guys, Tyler has, um, a brand new book, how to Survive Working For God. I guess it's not a brand new book, but it's been out for a little bit of time. You guys need to pick it up. 200 page read. Um, simple read, easy read. Easy read. People who don't like to read, like to read this book. That's awesome. And that is a gold medal for me. That's incredible. And the heart of this is that Tyler, like you've seen people work for church and then get out of church. Yes. Get burnout. We all see this all the time, but how do you actually. We have a heart for the church, for the local church, and we wanna see people go into ministry, but not just go into ministry. Stay in ministry, right? Yeah. Like it's exciting when you're like, oh, I'm called to ministry. Or you have an altar call moment, like you're called to preach, you're called to sing, you're called to serve, uh, whatever it may be. But how do we actually sustain that? And I think the conversation today is gonna be encouraging for those people who maybe they're, maybe they're younger, maybe they're in high school or college. Absolutely. And they're navigating like, what I want to do next, what do I wanna do with my life? Am I going to give this like and serve God, uh, in ministry capacity? Like go to seminary, serve God, do all these things in the church, or am I going gonna go to this route? I don't know. And here on the podcast we talk about a lot about music theory. A lot about gear. Yeah. A lot about, um, industry professionals, but also a ton about ministry, encouragement. And I think today's episode is really on ministry encouragement. So Tyler, tell us all about how to survive with God. Yeah. Uh, working for God. Yeah. Um, not how to survive God, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, forgot that's a different book. Uh, I think, I think there's facets where even how. We often will talk about music theory and things like that. I think sometimes we have not approached ministry, whether it is volunteer, full-time, part-time travel, a church, whatever the situation is. I don't think we necessarily approach ministry practically. Enough. So we learn theology, but we don't necessarily learn how to deal with personalities, how to deal with expectations, how to support a vision of a leader. That is not your vision. But it is your. Vocational responsibility. To serve it. And not just serve it, but serve it in an excellent way. And how to deal with all of the ebbs and flows of that. We've kind of talked about this before there, there are statistics that for every two C church, for every church that is planted. Two churches close. Wow. That sometimes the, uh, one of the recent statistics I heard that the average lifespan of a person being a youth pastor is nine months or less nine months, bro, that they will. They'll resign. They'll be like, I'm, I'm gonna be a real estate agent. I'm going to now do anything else. This, oh no, this calling out the real estate agency. And I think, I know it's, it's the every day I see it is the number one choice. Yeah. Like what? I thought you used to do this. Now you're a na a real estate agent. Oh no, no, no, no. Now they drive a, a white Buick and they are all about the real estate agency. Uh, I think it is just given you the ability to approach ministry, not through a lens that is now disillusioned, but it is through a lens of reality. Wow, that all the beautiful things are still beautiful and some things they are just tough. Kind of like even what we're talking about today. They're just tough to navigate. Right, right, right. But I think the point of the book I wrote in the course and, and hopefully even today in what we talk about, I really want to anchor so much of the conversation now around hope. Okay, good. That, that you can, if you've ever met somebody who has served God their whole life, still loves God, still loves people. When Jesus is brought up, they still cry. They're still at 70 years old, blown away that they get to serve the church. Come on. That is such a beautiful thing. Yes. And I want to give somebody that feels. A pull towards ministry, the hope that they can be that, come on man, that you don't have to retire early, that you don't have to now be so hurt by the situations that you are in, that you not just throw in the towel and do something else. Right? That you have the ability to approach ministry realistically, but also still do it happy and whole and healthy. And so that's, that's the whole boat the whole. Bro. I love that man. I love that. I want to give a little bit of context for people, by the way, so you have a full course out, you have a whole podcast. You have a whole book. And um, you told us before we started filming that you're offering 50% off of this course right now. Yes. And it is live. We're gonna link this in the show notes. We're gonna link this here in YouTube. There's a whole course and a train. It's It's really a training session for. You as a staff member, you can get your church to sponsor it if you want to, but there's a whole course out that Tyler has. Yes. How to survive working with that. And it's built in a way where if you wanted to do it as an individual or as a team or as a staff, it's kind of built where you can do one or the other. Okay. So, um, if it's just one person, you're like, the rest of the staff doesn't wanna do it, don't worry if you're like, no, I think the whole team would actually benefit from it. It, it works to be individually and collectively. That's amazing. That's amazing. And I do wanna take a moment to, to thank Aerospace Audio for officially sponsoring this podcast. Yes. Um, they're incredible. There's a physical atmosphere pedal, and so we're talking about a lot about leadership today and a lot about the context of the church and a lot of, uh, worship leaders, Tyler, are using this atmosphere pedal, which is actually located right behind you if you're looking on YouTube. Yes. Um, this, that's the version two, but there's a version three out. It's glistening, isn't it? Uh, but it's a great, it's an analog option if you don't want to have iPad. Uh, computers, iPhones out there running your pads, um, and you wanna rely fully on analog. Absolutely. This pedal is great for you. Atmospheric drone pads for your worship services. Also, they have an app called Arrow pads, which is a great option. I think it's only seven bucks right now, so definitely go grab that. We're gonna link that in the show notes and the description. Shout out to Isaac over there. With aerospace audio, we've had them, we've had him on for an episode as well, talking about like atmospheric pads, sound design. Yeah. And a lot goes into that. I think as the user, you just plug it in and and go. But it's like a lot more complex to that. And like we use apps today and we just. We just use it. But the app developer had to do a lot to build all that out. Absolutely. So hats off to aerospace audio for making a great resource for drone pads. And they always have, there's new sound packs that come out all the time on their website and on the app. So I think the app is real versatile, but the pedal's great too. And you can load your own sounds on the pedal too. Yes. And, and also integrate it with Ableton. Um, we have a whole, we have a lot episodes on Ableton. Yeah. And we also have, Caleb King talked about using this pedal within his Ableton rig with MIDI session. So when he goes to a new patch. It changes also his pads. Absolutely. So there's a lot you can do, but this is something about that. And a lot of people sleep on pads. They do. They do. But I have seen in several worship experiences, the personality of the pad have such an effect. On a moment. if you allow it to. So if you're not careful, you'll. Be like, oh yeah, let's just throw a pad in. It doesn't really matter. But the intentionality behind a pad has so much to do with the personality of the sound as a whole. Yes, absolutely. A hundred percent worth it. And okay. Yeah, this whole episode is not about pads, but if you can have a way to route your pads to just a, a, a low pass, filter some LFO or something for eq, and you can just make it darker and brighter at any moment. Brings up a whole thing. But anyway, speaking of dynamics, that was a musical dynamics. Yes. But we're talking about church leadership dynamics today. It's very, it easy us to nerd out on these comfort as that's me man. I guess let's go nerd out, but let's get back to church leadership dynamics. Um, a lot of us do struggle if you're, if you've ever spent any time, any amount of time, like whether that's the nine months as a youth pastor, 2, 3, 4 years, we understand that there's always dynamics. There's work dynamics in any job you do. Mm-hmm. Like whether that's working at Chick-fil-A or. Whether you're a nurse or what, whatever. There's always leadership dynamics. Yeah. But it's interesting in the church, because all of a sudden you stamp the approval of like, this is the man of God. Mm-hmm. And, uh, especially in the, so sometimes the charismatic movement there is this, um, almost unhealthy, uh, you know, sense of. Devotion to the, to that one leader without a doubt that you sometimes can't speak out on. Yeah. And, and not just charismatic circles too, there's, there's other unhealthy circles within different denominations that's maybe not be the Pentecostal realm, but Tyler, tell us a little bit, um, first of all, context is, is key. I wanna ask you about some, some charismatic stuff, but Yeah. Uh, you were a part of the ramp in Hamilton, Alabama. I was, yes. What years were you there? Oh geez. I think it was, I'm ball parking here. Yeah. But I'm gonna say. I was in some capacity involved from 2004 to 2014. Okay. Wow. 10 years. Yeah. That's, that's a long time. And then I lived in Hamilton off and on three different times, maybe seven or eight of those years. Okay. Okay. So pretty substantial chunk. That's amazing. And you were part a part of chosen, yeah, chosen helped on worship. I, oh yeah, that was the thing. Dance was actually going to be. One of my main focuses leaving high school, actually considered for a very long time going to school just for dance. That's amazing. Breath. Um. So, yeah, I a killer man. The dances y'all used to have, I felt like it was, it was so energetic and lively and Oh yeah. It was one of those things where at the time too, especially in the early two thousands, like, uh, we call them human videos. Pantomimes. Oh yeah. It was a very used groupie. Like you get together and like throw away your cigarettes. It was like a very specific Yes, yes, yes thing. Um, so then there were facets of it where on the outside looking in, it would be very easy to throw it away as something very cheesy and like what's exactly the purpose of this Yes. Is, and then. Realizing very quickly, so much of the power that would happen in those moments that on the outside looking in, still check all the boxes for being pretty cheesy. So much of the intentional approach. Opened up the hearts of so many people that would be watching it. Yeah. And then it was just very, so many life lessons of like, there's so much power in what you invite God into, come on. And a lot of times what you don't see God move in is not 'cause he is not interested. It's 'cause you didn't make space for him to do it. Mm. So then having that shift, yes. It obviously applies to a thousand other things. I love, love it, bro. My favorite. My favorite dance that y'all did, which. There are actually a lot of high energy ones that was, that were entertaining. Yeah. And y'all would take turns, like some of y'all would solo. And I remember certain people that would dance that I was like, I love when they take their solo dance. Yes. Like the faster ones. But the, the most impactful one was, um, it's gonna be worth it. All the red sash. And we'll cry right now. Oh bro. Like, oh my goodness. I came, I came down there and got my red sash when I was like a 10-year-old. Oh yes. Have to. And I, I mean, I remember, you know, bringing that to school, putting it in my Bible, like the red sash, like it's gonna be worth it to follow God. Oh, that's beautiful man. It was. I love that. So doing what you did, it was very impactful. I know, for me personally. Yeah. And to many others of their real walk, real encounter, uh, with, with the Lord Jesus Christ. Yeah. Like not just the relationship with a doctrine or with a book. And so. Um, thank you for serving and we, we applaud Karen Wheaton and all the ministries. Absolutely. Uh, I love Damon Thompson. I still follow him. Yeah. He was there during that 2004, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 era, right? Yeah. Probably till 20 12, 20 13, something like that. I don't think he made it that long. I don't know. I don't think, but it's something along there. Yeah, but you know, it doesn't matter. But we love Damon. We love the ramp and, okay. And then you. You do, you did spend time at Lee University? I did. Yes. Tell us about that. I got my undergrad degree there, uh, in advertising. Okay. Love it. I'm an advertising nerd. You do not wanna go in a grocery store with me because I'll just pick up a package and like, this is brilliant. Um, I. Was in a ministry there called Campus Choir, which I also learned a whole lot in because you basically are in a situation where you have to travel as a little bit of an outreach of the school. So you're a little bit of like a promotion for the school while also a ministry. So it's kind of like figuring out how to navigate. Huh. That type of stuff. Um, but you also go in churches that are very big, huge budgets. You go to really small country churches, uh, with like 50 people in it, and then you go on TBN and then you have to help raise money. And then you have to do all of these things. And you have to be, you have to learn really fast how to serve multiple visions for multiple different purposes. And still remain authentic, To who you are. Yeah. Uh. And obviously like the ramp, it, it obviously trails off into so many areas. Totally. Yeah. But yeah, I loved it. I love it, man. Levi, through and through. Come on now. Yeah. Canvas Choir I, I know is also a really great, um, if you're a part of that group, which I, I feel like it's, it's hard to probably get into that group, so it's probably challenging to do that. And it's great to see them. And also voices of Lee, I mean, there's so many great things about university. Oh, absolutely. Um, okay. And then you spent five years at Bethel in Redding, California. We did, yes. Tell us about that, man. Yeah, we, my wife and I were in the thick of COVID and we were really moved by a lot of things that were happening. At Bethel at the time, and it ash, it actually initially really started in my wife to have a desire to go out there and then we, through some conversations, it was like the world apparently seems to be shutting down. We might as well be in reading while it shuts down. Because at that time it was very much like, who knows? How long this is gonna take, who knows what this is gonna end up looking like. Sure. So we kind of just rolled the dice and went to Redding and it was kind of a year by year situation. Ended up being there five years. Loved it, loved the people, learned so much. Uh, kind of another thing, like all the other environments I've been in, I, I think it's just learning to see God. Just a different way. I had a friend who said this a long time ago, and I loved it. I, I apply it to a lot of things even now where. He said, sometimes you don't go to a ministry to learn what your walk with God has to look like or what your walk with God ought to look like, but what your walk with God could look like. Mm. And there's something about being in different environments because all, I've been in a lot of environments and they're all pretty different. Like there's similarities, but there's, they're pretty different. And there was something so beautiful about being in situations where I'm like. Wow. The opportunity of what my walk with God could add and evolve into here. Adding that with where I've been. Yeah. To create something brand new and something totally elevated in myself, in my marriage, whatever. Yeah. Um, I think there's something so valuable in that, man. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Okay. And. We love Bethel. We love Bethel music, and uh, I'm a big Bethel fan. Love music. Someone is singing goodness of God right now. Right now as we speak. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, but didn't they but they didn't write that though, right? Bethel didn't write goodness of God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Did they really? Yeah, I think, I don't know who I like Jim Johnson. Oh, no. Yeah, Jen is the main writer. She's the, and then cc, cc y has covered it. Yeah. And other people covered it. Okay. I see. I don't know. Oh yeah. I don't even know who's writing songs anymore. I never know. It's one of those things where I'm sure there's like five or six writers on it. Right, right, right. That I know of. Jen is like the, come on, the main spearheader. I love it, man. Shout out. And Tyler, you are a songwriter. You're a keys player. Yes, sir. You're a, a singer, incredible singer. Um, a producer. You're doing a little bit of app development, you. Again, an author, I get bored easily is what it comes down to at this point. Like you are like a wild card of a creative and so I love that. Thank you. And a lot of our listeners can, can relate to some, uh, to a lot of that as well. And I do want to. Applaud you for that and just love, love how you just go at it. Yeah. And just you follow through too. You have an idea and then you follow through with the idea. Thank you, sir. And you're like, you know what? I'm just gonna test it. We're gonna go for it. Um, so I love that. But, so to help with our, our listeners here who are on staff at church, navigating those, those hard dynamics of, of leadership, um, sometimes, especially with the news going on right now of uh, different things that come out with leaders that whether that be abuse. And this is in all denominations. In all things. In all workplaces, by the way. Yeah. Um, but it is a little tricky when it's in the church. Mm-hmm. Like sexual abuse, um, mishandling of money, mishandling of people. Um, and then especially, you know. Some things that come out in the charismatic movement where you have a word of prophecy, but maybe that word doesn't come to pass or maybe it's not a, uh, doesn't, doesn't happen. Yeah. So I wanna ask you, um, and for us as, as listeners as well, uh, what do you do when you have received a word of prophecy or a word of knowledge and it has not, um, did not come to pass? Or maybe that leader. Fell at a certain point. Um, with you being with you, you've been at Bethel five years. Yeah. And there's been recent things with Bethel itself Sure. But also other churches. Um, what would you say, what would you say to that? Yeah. Uh, I would first say, I remember in my early twenties, maybe for like a five to six year span, I would have several people who would come up to me. People I knew, people I didn't know. Um, it was very weird for a while I thought this happened to everybody and then I found out it didn't. Okay. Um, I would have several people come up to me and they would tell me, I am your spiritual father. God has told me I'm your spiritual father. My name is so and so. God has told me I'm your spiritual father. Wow. And at that time, the language of spiritual mother, spiritual father was new to me. Yeah. Uh, I didn't grow up really in a church that we said that, um. But I'm trying to grow, I'm trying to learn. I obviously wanna be in the will of God. I want to do things right. Yeah. And I'm also specifically at an age and in a mindset where I'm like, if I don't do one thing right, it could ruin everything. Oh yeah. It'll domino effect everything. Mm-hmm. So if I don't have the right spiritual father, if I don't have the right spiritual mother and I don't listen to their correct advice, who knows how horrible my life might be? So I Am very paranoid when I'm surrounded by a group of people telling me they are a spiritual authority in my life. 'cause I was also in an age where spiritual authority was very much a, if they tell you no, it's a no. Mm. It wasn't like this is somebody that gives me good advice. It was, I submit my life to somebody. Right. And I have opinions on that, that have evolved as well. But, uh, there the core value of it. I think there's so much beauty in. But because I had so many people coming up and tell me that it caused a lot of anguish in me of are they hearing God? And I'm not, I don't know how I could have like 11 spiritual fathers. Dunno what that looks like. I don't even know if that's a thing. Uhhuh. Um. But I, I want to do this Right. And that caused a lot of issues for me, just in my mind. Right. A lot of stress. A lot of anxiety. Yeah. So I understand the, in a small way, the, not even necessarily the damage that can come from putting yourself where you receive the word of the Lord from people, but how it can almost. Make you stuck. Yeah. Where you almost don't feel like you have the ability to grow out of the place you're in. Yeah. Because you almost feel like you're on pause until you figure out this word. Right. Facet. Right. Um, and I remember one time specifically, I was in a service and there was a very famous minister there, and I had heard. Th through enough of former employees that he was not the best person to work for. Okay. Wasn't necessarily a sin issue. Yeah. But things that I would consider not good leadership behavior. Yeah. Yeah. And this minister out of a whole room of, I don't know how many people pointed at me and had me stand up. And I stood up and he was about to give a word to me. And I remember in my mind thinking, Lord, I would really appreciate it if what he says is real. And if this moment is real, he will not lay hands on me. Hmm. And I had watched him lay hands on about 15 people before he called me out. Okay. And I wasn't testing the Lord. It wasn't like a whatever. I just was Lord if I would really prefer if he did not lay hands on me. And that will help me know what's going on right now is real. But if he lay his hands on me, I'm not, I'm discounting everything and I don't even know if that was the right thing to do. But he gives me this word and he actually gives me a very specific word. Okay. That almost nobody but myself would even know what a lot of it means. Okay. Okay. And then when he's done, he asks another famous preacher that's in front of me. He asked that person to stand up and to lay hands on me. He does not lay hands on me When he's done praying for me, he goes on to somebody else. Everybody he prayed for before me. He personally laid hands on everybody He prayed for after me. He personally laid hands on. He, the only person he did not lay hands on was me, and he asked another preacher to lay hands on me while he prayed. Okay, so there are situations. Where you just are like, Lord, I'm not sure. I have a lot of questions because I know what I've heard is factual because I've been in enough situations and I trust the character of people I've talked to. Right. And they don't gossip and bad mouth people. Even some of the stories I'm hearing are from a pain place. Yeah. Yeah. So how do I balance. And deal with these two truths right. At the same time. Mm-hmm. And that story for me is helpful even just for me because at the end of the day, that was proof that the Lord is going to make sure that I'm protected. Okay. Yeah. In that if I open up myself to the Lord being like, I'm not here to get an awesome word from somebody that's famous. Mm-hmm. Lord, I want to be in the middle of your will. And I'm okay if that means receiving a word from somebody that I probably don't really wanna receive a word from. But it would be awesome if you could also give me a sign and a wonder in this moment to prove that you're still in the middle of this. Yeah. And the Lord was kind enough and and sweet enough to towards me and my relationship with him to be like, yeah, I can do that. Yeah. So I think for a lot of people it is understanding if you open up yourself to the Lord, for him to be the anchor point and your trust with God to not be shaken by the shakiness of maybe some other people's relationship with the Lord. I think that's very helpful. Mm. I have seen over and over again, people be used by God that you're like, how I've seen in my own life, I'm like, Lord, I do not even know. In my current in, I remember a certain time in my life where I'm like, Lord, I have sin in my life. I have undealt with issues in my life. And you just moved powerfully. Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea how to deal with this. Obviously that's a lot about mercy and a lot about grace and so on and so forth, but I think it is about allowing yourself, Lord, if you and me can keep talking in this. I think I'll be okay. Yeah. And I think when sometimes when people let us down, it puts us into situations where we are so hurt, we stop talking to the Lord in the process. Mm-hmm. Instead of like, Lord, I'm hurt with, with one of my. co-brothers cosisters whatever, right. In the faith. And I don't want that to cause you and me to stop talking. Absolutely. So I think that's a lot of it is finding the ability to keep communication and trust with the Lord key and high. That's good. I, there's a story in the Bible where, um, somebody is writing a donkey. And there is an angel in the middle of the road trying to get attention to this person that's riding the donkey. The donkey sees the angel, the person on the donkey does not see the angel. The donkey is trying to walk out of the way to not hit the angel and this person riding the donkey's, like, what in the world is wrong with you? Right? To the point that the donkey is trying to get so far out of the way that ends up rubbing against the wall and jacking up the leg of this guy that's riding. He's like, what is your problem? Strikes the donkey. The donkey starts talking. DARS talking, yeah. Starts talking to the guy, the guys. I can't imagine what's going on in this mind's head, but one of the main takeaways. I have from that is so often we are in situations where we're like, Lord, how are you using this? How are you using this person, this person this, this person this, this person, this? And it's not that that's invalid, but I think sometimes in life I need to be aware of, am I in situations where I'm ignoring, where I am ignoring angels and it's causing a donkey to spin up. A donkey represents something very specific. If that donkey is speaking that loud, who am I ignoring? What am I ignoring? Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes we make a powerful voice of a leader, the voice of Jesus when we shouldn't, just as much as I think we take a fall in person and we give them the devil's face when we shouldn't. Mm. So I don't wanna give the enemy a human face, and I don't wanna give a powerful leader Jesus' face. I wanna keep Jesus anchored in the middle of the whole situation. And my communication with him stays constant, which means my trust stays anchored. That's what I, that's good, bro. Come on now. And that's tough. I mean, that's a whole lot easier than like, oh yeah, I'll just do that. Yes, it is, and it is a process. And I'm sure every year, I mean in, in my life I had, I had somebody that I thought I was gonna be in ministry with for a long time. They passed away. Mm. They're like, they were the leader. They were pointing me in a direction. Now I don't know where I'm headed because my leader's gone. Right, right. I've had leaders make decisions that they don't explain themselves. Mm-hmm. So then I'm like, is this a blind trust moment? Is this, you know, I don't know. Like there's so many different scenarios. Yeah. And no matter if you're on staff, if you're a volunteer, if you're in the band, if you're a worshiper, whatever, you are constantly in the throes of either getting ready to be thrown off course or staying anchored. Yeah. And so much of that is an intentional choice and it's, it's not easy by any stretch, but I do think there is power in. When a room is going crazy, that you are the one that's standing on the rock in that moment and you're unmoved by the waves and everything else, and you're like, okay, Jesus, somehow you're in this. And when I get a word, you're, the filter comes through. Mm. Your word is what the, is what this word comes through. Right? Right. And maybe it's true, maybe it's not. Maybe the person is great, maybe they're not inauthentic. I can't, I can't spend my life. I trying to decipher all of that. Right. But Lord, if you're the anchor point, then, then it's gonna make all of this other stuff way easier. Absolutely. Yeah. That's good stuff. What do you say to the person who is battling right now, navigating the challenging, uh, leadership dynamics in their own church, and how do they know? How do you know when to stay? Or when to leave a church. Mm-hmm. A ministry, because you've obviously been a part of a few different ministries over the years. Yeah. You've been planted at these some ministries, 7, 8, 9, 10 years, some of them four or five years, like Bethel. Uh, now you've moved back to Tennessee. Yeah. Recently. Um, how do you know, how do, how do people discern whether or not they, and this is challenging, right? I mean, ultimately we just wanna say the Holy Spirit Jesus have discernment. Yes, absolutely. But. And yes, that is the ultimate thing. I think that's the answer. But what would you say to those P that that are really challenge, like really struggling with, do I stay in this environment, try to make it better with my leader and who, who, my sphere of people. Whether it's the worship, you're the worship pastor, tech director, just the keys player and you're serving wholeheartedly. What would you say to that person? Should they, how do they know when to stick it out or when to leave? Yeah, I think. We need to pay attention a lot more to growth. Um, some plants grow and make a lot of headway in every season, and it's not a one size fits all thing. Um, I believe really strongly in this idea that I heard once where. Scientifically, if you have a plant in a pot, that plant will grow and it will grow, and it will grow, and then it will stop growing. It'll basically reach the end of the pot it's in, and it will stay at that size for the rest of time, right? If you remove it and put it in a bigger pot, all of a sudden it will grow and it will then grow to the extent of that pot. So on and so on and so forth. It's ability to grow or not grow is fully dependent on what pot it's in and I think sometimes what happens, and I don't mean grow in the sense of like influence or even like a higher salary or more cache or any, I'm not talking about that. There were a lot of ministries that I've been involved in that I kind of went kind of. Against my will. It almost feels like, but then look back, I'm like, me being successful in another season was completely predicated on what I learned and grew in in this season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um. Whether that be like admin wise or how to deal with people, or maybe I was given more responsibility and leadership opportunities and I thought I could handle it, but I'd never been able to put, you know, my feet, my hands, like in the dirt to like figure it out. Right? And now I feel way more confident and competent. At something I had no capability in. Right. So I think so much of where we are and where we're going and where we're supposed to stay, I think we have to do an honest diagnosis with ourselves of what's our growth look like? Do I wanna leave because. It looks like it'd be more fun to grow somewhere else. Yeah. Or is my serving here actually causing a lot of growth? Yeah. Even though I'm like, I don't even, I'm not even necessarily on the same page here, but I feel like God, I mean, who knows how many people I've talked to, friends, family, they're like, we have dreams to do something else. But it is very crystal clear. This is where God has us right now. Mm-hmm. And. I think you are in a situation where you have to say, um, okay, Lord, if, if those who are planted in the house of the Lord flourish and the courts of our God, I need to not be here because I'm too scared to go somewhere else and I don't need to be here because it's so comfortable, I don't wanna start over. Right. I. Need to be paying very close attention to the way I'm planted. Mm. That will have an effect on how I flourish here or elsewhere. Yeah. So if I'm intentional about myself growing and flourishing, I have to pay very close attention to how I'm planted. That's good. So if you're in a situation where. You're like, I've been here 10 years. I don't know. I feel like I've, I've learned everything I'm supposed to learn. I feel like I've, I've done everything I'm supposed to do. I think you have to pay attention to your planting process there. Mm-hmm. And then allow that to grow in the conversation. I also think sometimes, like somebody right now is probably listening to this podcast. You need to get out two years ago. Like you got to go. Yeah. It's fantastic. I think there's sometimes you also go into an environment because it's so shiny from the outside, you think association is gonna solve most of your problems and you're flourishing is gonna come out of the environment. And so you go into situations not knowing the reality of behind the scenes of the root system. Yeah. And then you get in, you're like, this is rough. And it, it's. It's double rough 'cause you were never supposed to be there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's just figuring out how am I supposed to be planted here in an excellent way. Yeah. So no matter what the role is, I think you have to put a lot of intentionality of how am I planted? Right. That's good. Now, some of that may affect, you know, if you're married. That planting conversation is different if you have kids that planting conversation is different. Yeah. But, but specifically for the individual, it is finding out a way, how am I planted the best way? And then if I leave, if I feel like I'm supposed to leave, so much of how, to me being a part, being planted very well somewhere is how you also change pots. So to me, you can't go to a new pot and flourish in a new pot unless you made sure you left the pot before it very well. It is not about always agreeing. It's not about always being on the same page, loving the same songs, loving the same concept, having the exact same leadership style. All of that can be all over the place. Right. And you still be able to have unity. Yes. If you have the ability to be planted and to. Be an instrument of unity on the staff in the room when worship is going on. All that stuff be planted until you feel like you're supposed to change pots. Mm. If you do not have the ability, I think you need to go work at Walmart for a little bit until you have the ability to make sure that you are an instrument of unity. That's good because you being useful, but. Unable to bring Unity to me is not helpful to a pastor. Yep. Not, not helpful To a deacon board. Not helpful to the people you're serving. Anything like that? Preach, man. I think Unity is. I didn't know you were a pastor too. I know, I know. I'm telling you it's, it's coming out. The longer I talk, it's getting there, but it is unity. Is is like the oil that flows. Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't matter your denomination, if it's like bouncing off the ceilings or if it is very much like liturgy. We, we look down, we read our paragraphs, it unity unlocks. And a lack of unity shuts down so much. Yeah. So to me, if you're planted well and you're trying to figure out where you should be, sometimes you know, if you're supposed to be somewhere, and if you know you're supposed to stay, usually it's a gut thing. Yeah. I think the damage that happens is you stay too long or you. Don't know how to transition. 'cause you feel awkward. Yeah. And then when you have sour memories, it's because you stay too long and you didn't know how to transition. Right. But I think if you put intentionality into, maybe I'll stay six months longer than I would to make sure I leave. My former place. For them, it's a win. So I think so much of that, of navigating when you're supposed to leave, when you're supposed to go, almost always you do know the damage happens because you're not sure how to handle the inbetweens. Mm, that's good. So to me, handling the Inbetweens is gonna have the most direct. Impact on how you flourish while you're still there and where you're headed in the future. That is great stuff, man. Yeah, that is really good. Um, I never, we have not really talked about, um, pot this much on the Worship Keys podcast, so I know, and I've said like a hundred times, take that as you will. No, but, uh, I do wanna talk about some environments. Of potential manipulation. Yeah. This is not just in the charismatic movement. Sure. It can happen in the charismatic movement. Um, mainly because sometimes there are not those elder boards or people the accountability. But I do wanna touch on this. Yeah. Because in recent news also there's what's called coverup culture within Yeah. The, the all-star pastor groups, you know, or with, um. It's influential leaders, and this can happen in politics and in churches and in other workplaces too. But talk, speak into this, Tyler, as someone who has a book on how to survive working with God. Yeah. For God, how to sur survive working for God. Um, what do you say about the quote unquote cover up culture where you. Say, Hey, we're gonna sweep this under the rug. This happened and we're gonna try to cover this up. And then on the flip side, you made a post recently. You said Some people hate mercy and that's just weird. So how do we, and speaking of goodness of God, what a great song. How do we. How do we balance between the thinking of like the mercy of God, the thief on the cross, right? Yeah. Like no one had to verify his membership and, and his fruit. Do a fruit check of the, the, yeah. The thief on the cross. Jesus says, Hey, you today, you're gonna be with me in, in Paradise. Mm-hmm. What do you have to say to the, the balance between, we want accountability for the manipulation and the abuse, but also we want restoration and there's mercy. What are your thoughts there? Yeah, yeah. Balancing that. Yeah. I think so much of it is, what is this unto um, sometimes I see people fighting for justice and I'm like, do you care about justice? Or do you, or are you seeing an opportunity where like, finally I can get my hands on something? Oh, dude. You know what I'm saying? Like it is, speak on that. It is, it's a very like. It, I don't, I don't remember the, the exact book, but there, there, in the New Testament, I believe it's Paul writing, he's writing to a church and he says, you have judged some that call themselves apostles and found that they are not, and you're correct. But I still have this issue that you've, you've left your first love. Mm-hmm. So it's, it's not that there's not a precedent and a need. For being an actual shepherd, right? If there's a wolf around your flock, I can pet that wolf all day long if I want to, but it doesn't change the fact that that wolf being around my flock is a danger to the thing I'm called to protect. Yes. So I think sometimes it's not about, um. Being indifferent and be like, well, why can't we all just play in the fields, you know, and just enjoy life. Yeah, it there is, and I understand that. I am naturally in my personality when all else fails. I'm like, I wish everybody would just do the right thing so we could all get along. Like that's how I see life. Right, right, right. And when I see anybody not doing that, I'm like, come, you're, come on. We're supposed to be getting along and enjoying life and you just ruined it. Um, and so I think it is figuring out. Lord, I'm a shepherd, but you're the good shepherd. Mm-hmm. And sometimes I'm calling something a wolf when it's actually probably just a sheep I don't wanna deal with. Hmm. Because we talk about things of like, God leaves the 99 for the one. I can't think of a bigger nuisance than having to leave the 99 to deal with the one. Right. Right. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like, who knows what's gonna happen to these nine, nine? Well, I gotta go on this journey. Right? Find this one. The one's probably playing somewhere, eating where it shouldn't be eaten, fell in a well, who only knows what happened. And yeah, I'm mad while I'm going to get this sheep right. I'm mad. Once I find it, I'm mad bringing it back. And I think sometimes if we're not careful, we get lost in the weeds of that instead of understanding the beauty of Jesus being like, oh man, like. The beauty of leaving the nine nine to find the one. Yes. And also how easily it is for us to forget we were the one. Um, I also at the same time can think of a handful of scenario and be like, this minister, I'm glad you're going to heaven. You would never be around my wife. You would never be around my daughter. Right. And I don't feel bad about that. Like, we'll, I'll, I'll stand by you at the throne. We'll have, we'll have a great old time. It'll be awesome down here. You ain't like we got, we got some boundaries, we got some rules, we got some, you know, whatever. Sure, sure. You, you need to be a real estate agent. Right. You don't need to do anything. I think sometimes we make ministry the aim as opposed to just the joy of our salvation. So then if ministry is basically the same as salvation, it means a lot more when we lose it. Mm. And we're so scared of losing it. Because there goes our importance. There goes right. Our reputation, there goes our money, there goes people looking up to us, there goes the people telling us, wow, that was so powerful today you changed mind. Like Right. We lose all of that. We lose that. Yeah. When in, in reality, at the end of the day, I am like, that's a crown we throw at his feet anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So if it's a crown that I throw at his feet anyway, then I can just come up with a different crown to throw at his feet. I don't have to do this. Right, right. I think a lot of people do ministry 'cause they feel like. Jesus is mad at them if they don't. Uh, I think, and I know that's, that's touchy for a lot of people, I feel like even as I say it, and I get that. Um, but I also know people that did ministry too long because they were embarrassed at the idea of doing something else because any, they were convinced by family, well-meaning friends, everything you do outside of ministry is selfish. Hmm. But if I've heard anything for the past 10, 20 years, over and over again in every denomination, every church conference, I've heard it from every pastor who's ever preached a sermon. Everything's supposed to be worship. Yeah, yeah. Right. Everything right. We, we say the, the janitor is just as powerful as the preacher and, and this you can be a school principal and be just as much alive with doing the works of the kingdom of God and all that stuff. And I'm like, okay, well if that's true, then, then let's go ahead and get rid of some of these silos, right. And, and allow us to move forward in like a more healthy perspective. Yes. I think it is a, um. There's, there's an old Southern gospel song. Take us there, man. There's an old Southern gospel song that says, I catch 'em. God cleans them. Okay. And, uh, to me, I used to think that was the dumbest song I'd ever heard. But the older I get, the more I'm like, wow. It, it actually kind of could be that simple. Mm-hmm. Of Lord, when, when I'm in a situation and I have the ability to. Cash judgment to, you know, judge somebody as an apostle as not and be correct. Yeah. When I'm in those scenarios, I, I really want to make sure I'm choosing the j the Jesus way in this. Yeah. And I remember I heard Jason Epton a long time ago. He was talking come, oh yeah, please. Okay. Oh geez. Um, he was having a ministry moment. And he was talking about forgiveness and he was basically leading the whole room in a lot of forgiveness. Like if you'd been physically abused, if you'd been sexually abused, like we're gonna just basically have a moment of a room wide forgiveness. We're gonna let this go and we're gonna move forward in freedom. We're not gonna, this is gonna hold us back anymore. We're not, it's not gonna like torture us anymore. No more shame, whatever. We're moving forward and while he's walking through it, you feel the tension in the room of light. Yeah. This is tough, right? And as, as he's leading the moment, you can kind of feel that he feels it and he says, this is the hard stuff. This is the Jesus stuff. Mm. And I think there is a facet of, we'd never want to be the person who forgives something in a way where it feels like we're saying it's okay. Right? Abuse is not okay. This is not okay. That's not good. Whatever the case may be. And I think in our attempt to make sure that we go right on the record to say we know what's wrong and we know what's right, we, it's very difficult for us to make peace with the offensible mercy and unmerited favor Right. Of the blood of Jesus. Yeah. Um, but I do not believe that that puts us in a situation where now. We turn our brains off. Yeah, and I think it is, sometimes God does a radical deliverance. We see it over and over again in scripture. We're like, I don't even recognize this person. I don't, I even know who this person to a point, like the one person he, he's in a cemetery. He's cutting himself with stones. Jesus gets all these demons outta him, and the people are like, Jesus, you have to leave. Right. You've so changed this person. We don't even know how to process this. It's better Jesus if you leave. Right? Because the shift in a human that we know so much is different like that is there and then sometimes it's like, Lord, I don't, I don't know how you're doing this, but I'm going to keep my finger out of it and I'm gonna keep my stone on the floor. I'm not getting involved. Yeah. In this. I'm gonna let you deal with this. And I'm a big believer in the mercy you get. Is gonna be the mercy you give. That's good. So I can't speak to every scenario, every backdoor conversation, every heart posture. I can't speak to all of that, but I am very much aware that Jesus is paying very close attention to mine. Yeah. So I want to be very confident that I'm drowning people in mercy when I have the opportunity to, because one day I may need to swim in it, come on one day, it may come back, and I'm going to be very glad that I threw mercy out as much as I could, while also in wisdom. Being like, listen, you don't have to do ministry anymore. Who, that's okay. Who cares? You can love Jesus. Have friends. Be healthy, grow, and we can all move together. I think it's when we get into a place of like, no restoration in this person looks like they're doing exactly the same thing, the exact same way they were doing it. And I think our leaning in that it ha that restoration only looks like. One thing ever. Yeah. I think is where a lot of bitterness comes from, where a lot of deconstruction comes from. Because we don't give people the option to live a life that's free. We give people an option to live a life like service. Right? And then that's gonna mess up anybody's mindset. That's why somebody's a powerful preacher that's divorced. That's why you have a powerful family and your kids are crazy. Or you, you know, or, or you're stealing money, or you're this, or you're that. Well, that only exists in a world where. We all think, well, it has to be done a certain way. Yeah. So yeah, I just, I would encourage everybody to have wisdom, but also grace and mercy. I don't think they, they contradict. Yeah. I think they are, they're natures of the same God. And we have the ability, you know, for, for somebody I can give mercy 'cause I don't know them. Yeah. I, I, if, if, you know, if, if, if we, if we've been walking together for 10 to 15 years and I see progress in your life. In your character. I'm like, man, he, he's come such a long way. Like, this is amazing. Look at what God has done. Why if I just meet you for the first time, I don't care about the progress of your character. I care about the state of your character. Right? Right. So when you have a whole lot of people hurt, they're hurt by the state, and then you have a whole bunch of friends trying to defend by their knowledge of the progress. Mm. Well, obviously y'all are not gonna be on the same page. Right. So I even think a lot of that friction comes from the, the concept of like, you need to be slow to speak, quick to listen. Yeah. And understand. If you're in a friend role or a stranger role, and then understand all of that, just it changes like your approach and all of that. That's so good. I want you to share, you shared this with us, uh, with me off camera, but the story about Billy Graham. Yes. Can you share that? That's Yes. Oh my gosh. That's my favorite story. So I'd gone through a, a horrific life situation. I grew up loving God. Burning for revival. All things. Yes. Awakening. Yes. Now, um, overthrow, you know, the altars of bail, I was all over it. Yes. Be reformer. And in the middle of that I had a lot of issues with women. It was just always a prevailing issue. Some seasons were better than others, but it just was a thing. And I was surrounded by a lot of culture, that real freedom. Meant you had no, in a way, you had no temptation. Uh, real freedom meant you just lived a life like it was hard to recall memories. It was all of that. I didn't have that. I'm, I'm answering ultra calls. I'm doing the best I can, but I cannot. Get on that page of what around me was called actual freedom. Right? Right. So I'm not only dealing with the shame of what I'm dealing with, but I'm dealing with the shame of I'm not actually walking into real freedom. Mm-hmm. And sin management is like a subpar version. And so I'm just, I'm dealing with trying to navigate all this. And so obviously that follows me for a while. And then I remember one day I was having a conversation with my wife and she's the sweetest human in the entire world. And I'm trying to get her to understand how my brain has processed this for years. And I'm like, yeah. And then for so long I dealt with all these issues and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm going through all these things thinking she's gonna be like, I'm so sorry, I feel so bad. Like whatever. And she, in her, in the kindest way possible, was basically like, that is the dumbest thing. I've ever heard and basically walks me through like the practicality, even like a Proverbs mindset of understanding what it's like to actually take responsibility for a lot of things. Yeah. So that really, I know a lot of people were like, what does this have to do with Billy Graham? This was actually the precursor to this Billy Graham story for me. Mm-hmm. So I basically had had this revelation that actually really changed my life. Mm-hmm. Um, and. But some past issues had basically risen to the surface to a handful of my leaders, finding out some situations in my past, which brought about, you know, a lot of tough conversations. In the middle of all of this, Billy Graham passes away, and in one of my meetings it had gotten brought up how in the news everybody was talking about how Billy Graham was like this. Amazing minister who had never had a scandal. Right. One of the biggest ministers who had ever lived crusade on crusades, like played golf with presidents like this. He was a notoriously famous minister. Never a scandal. Yeah. And they just, nobody could get over that because so many people equated ministry to some type of scandal at some level. Right. And in the meeting, Billy Graham had gotten brought up and a passing statement had been made. You will never be Billy Graham. This will follow you forever. You'll never be able to live a life outside of the shadow of your past choices. Like it's just that stuff's gonna follow you forever. And they weren't saying it in a way of condemnation necessarily. I think they were trying to get me to understand. Like moving forward in the future or whatever. And, and honestly it was a situation that had been dealt with, but for them it was new. So it was kind of a thing of moving forward, you gotta like pay close. I think that was the heart of what they were trying to say. I don't knock them forward at all. Mm-hmm. But it was a situation I remember in my brain thinking, yeah, I mean, they're right. I'll never be. Billy Graham and I didn't, I still, to this day, I don't know anything about Billy Graham. I, I never had a dream about being Billy Graham. I never wanted to preach in stadiums. Like it just was never really something I correlated in my brain. Right. And Billy Graham had just passed away and we saw some friends and they were like, we're driving to North Carolina. Okay. What for? We found out that they basically had a situation where you could go to his estate. And see his coffin. It was like a two to three day period. You could see his coffin before his actual funeral where anybody from around the world could visit. Yeah. And we had just left the meeting. I am like, shell shocked, shame. I'm in like all the things and my wife was like, let's just, why don't we just go that, get outta town, break it up mono, like you'll get in like a depression spiral if we don't just shift it. So let's go here. So I'm, I'm like, fine, let's go. We're driving to North Carolina again. I don't know anything about Billy Grahams. I'm just looking stuff up on my phone and I'm finding all these people kind of saying the exact same thing. And there was one statement specifically that stood out to me, and it was actually Bill Clinton and Bill Clinton when he was kind of going through his thing in his presidency, uh, that Billy Graham met with him and Bill Clinton. Spoke so highly of Billy Graham, of how Billy Graham would just sit and just talk to him, not talk down, just sat and just talked, and how moving that was specifically when so many people were really ripping him apart and tearing apart his character and so on and so forth. A godly man walks into the room and just like, let's just talk like it was very moving. I keep going and I find another story. And in this story, it was one of the most famous ministers in the eighties who had a lot of influence, tons of money, and had had a huge fall. Basically one of the most famous ministry falls of all time. Ended up going to jail for it and. He said while he was in prison, he was calling any of his friends or pastors or whatever that he could to just try and make heads or tails of like the situation he was in. Nobody would answer his calls. Nobody would return his calls, nobody would visit him. And he says, one day I am sitting in prison, and Billy Graham walks in and he walks up and he gives me this huge hug and he calls him by his name and he goes, I am so sorry. Hmm. And he said he just sits there with him in this moment and it, I'm reading this and I'm like, this is the most disgraced minister in the world being visited in prison by the most distinguished minister in the world. Right. And he said, I think he was in prison maybe like two years or something like that. But he said when he got out of prison that week, he was sitting in Billy Graham's house at his table with his wife and kids eating fried chicken. Wow. And I remember reading that, and I don't know why I thought of it this way or why I even put. Verbally set it up this way, but I remember the second I read that, I recalled the meeting I had just had and it was like right outta my mouth. I said, I can be that Billy Graham. Mm. I cannot be the flawless. Never had a problem. From the time I was born till the time I died, everything was sunshine and rainbows. I don't have that right. But I can be the Billy Graham who sees somebody get the end of their rope at the bottom of the barrel steps in. Who cares about my reputation? Who cares about this, cares about this, and steps in and lifts people up. Yeah. Yeah. And that story for me. It. It was like that whole 24 hour period, I think completely shifted the trajectory of my ministry life for the rest of time. Mm-hmm. Before that, I think I had mercy. I think I had grace. I think I had perspective, but I also was pretty harsh. Yeah. Including with myself. Like, Tyler, you're a complete loser idiot. Why can't you get this? Under control. You obviously don't care enough. You obviously aren't trying hard enough. Mm. And it was that language to it. Anybody with an issue? Yeah. And I think after that, I, the shift in that was, was so radical. Yeah. I think it, it, if you're not careful, obviously it can get outta whack, but I even see if ministers go through a fall or through a tough situation or a season now, it's very hard for me not to. Um, change my position where my, my natural inclination is probably old version of Tyler where I feel I'll kind of lean in to start with the sharpness, but I'll feel that pull of, remember that Billy Graham in the situation of they already have the rest of the world doing that. They probably don't have anybody else giving them a hug and saying, I'm so sorry. Right. Someone who is guilty. Yeah. Someone who is having to pay the price. Right. For what they did. Rightfully so. And not undoing damage, not undoing mistakes and all that, but still sitting in the boat with them in the trial and the tribulation. Yeah. I think is something where you have to figure out in your own life and in your own season. 'cause I'm sure it's, it changes time and time. There's probably plenty of ministries or ministers that Billy Graham did not do that for. Right. I don't know. But it is figuring out when you have the ability to do that. Will you allow your the Lord to humble you enough to, to provide that for somebody? That's good, man. That is great. Well, there's only so much we can say within an hour long episode. Yeah. Which is why people should check out how to Survive Working for God podcast. Yeah. The course, the book. But I do just, I'll ask you out outright. So how, how do you survive working for God if you're gonna sum it up within just like two minutes or less. Yeah. How, how does one person survive actually working for God in a full-time ministry capacity? Maybe even part-time? Um, how is it that they, they do that? What are some, yeah, what would you sum it up to be? I would say approach it realistically. Every day is not powerful. Every day is not tears. Every day is not salvation. Every day is not healing. Every days Are tough. I, I once heard a minister say, suddenlys follow every days. Yeah. Yeah. So the powerful moments follow the every days. I think we're really good at the suddenlies. We're, we're, we're not as seasoned in the every days. Right. Right. Um, so I think it's just. Not, let's just stop holding a grudge for the every days, let's learn how to live the every days in a, in a way that the Suddenlys feel the more sweeter because we know the cost it took to get to them And then I think just the second point would just be that Jesus is the reward. That's good. He is. He is the reward. I, I've been in services where we have we, we have a long list of things that we feel like made that day a success. And I'm like, but Jesus being the reward was not there. Mm. Um, and I've been in plenty of things where it's like, I don't know if God did a single thing today, but Jesus is the reward. And somehow I feel, I feel okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Um, I preached the best sermon I could. Nobody raised their hand to get saved. Nobody got healed, nobody cried. Everybody hated the worship set. And you know, it's like, yeah. Yeah. This is just one of those days. But also it's like, Lord, I gave you an offering and it blessed your heart. Right. Right. And. I'm, I'm here to bless your heart and you take care of everybody else's heart. Yes. And I think those two things I, your, your longevity in ministry and your healthy capacity to do so with the joy of the Lord, I think is, is based on those two main things. Yeah. I love it. Two, two songs that I think of when I think of you is the song with Farflung Tin Can. Yes. Which was Come Lord Jesus and Such a great song. Yeah. That y'all recorded in Guatemala. Yeah. Shout out to. To them. Yeah. Um, but that, that song is so powerful. And then also your own original song that you self-produced and put out there that you delighted in Me. Tylee Richardson. Yes. And I love that because it reminds me of Isaiah 62, which Damon's preached on a lot about, um, Hef sba. About the Lord delighted in me. Yeah. And he has called you Heah and your land, bah land. And of course we have bah land. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And but what about the heah part where like God is not disappointed in you. He actually, he made you and he loves you and he delights in you even. Mm-hmm. Which is even in a lot of religious settings, uh, we're taught to. Hate ourselves so much. Mm-hmm. Um, but really it's, it's, we recognize what God, what Jesus did on the cross and that sin is a serious thing. Yeah. And uh, I know when you were at the ramp that, um, it was a very intense environment for crucifying self and crucifying sin. Yeah. Which is a serious thing. Do you, and I'll end this podcast episode talking about this. You've been in a lot of environments where prior you guys prioritize. Faith and you prioritize healings in words and the outward expression. Um, even just chosen up on stage, right? Like Miss Karen, uh, is gonna have chosen up there so that people see y'all going all in. Yeah. Yeah. And so therefore, and it's almost like. And I don't know if you ever felt like this when you were doing the, the ramp, so it's almost like, almost felt like performative when you're up there. Sure. Um, but there is a lot of freedom. Yeah. Because a lot, y'all were delivered from drugs and everything else. Like y'all are dancing and we worship even if we feel it or not. Mm-hmm. So I'm not, you know, knocking that at all. But in these environments of faith, what happens when, um. The healing doesn't come. Um, what happens when, even in those environments where sin is a very serious thing, there's, there is still sin even from the person that might be preaching it the loudest. Yeah. Uh, what are your thoughts on, on that and the whole faith, uh, faith charismatic movement? Mm-hmm. I think you have to pay very close attention to. Where you, where you feel disappointment. So if you feel disappointment because you weren't healed, I don't think there's anything wrong with being disappointed that you have not been healed yet or whatever the occasion is. Um, but I would ask you to ask yourself and be honest, why are you disappointed? Are you disappointed? I know some people that feel like they're owed healing. Hmm. That I am a king's kid. I'm getting healed. Uh, I know some people that feel embarrassed to ask for healing because they think that is a spit in the eye of salvation, and now I'm being greedy. I'm not satisfied in Christ alone. Now I need all this other stuff. Yeah. I, I know tons of people that feel the exact same way about prophecy or words of knowledge. It's very much depending on the room you're in. Uh, it's somebody walking in the fullness of what Jesus paid for, or it is Jesus apparently isn't enough. 'cause now you have to have all this other stuff. Yeah. Um, and depending on the person, that's probably true. Mm-hmm. So I think you have to be honest with yourself. Yeah. Of do I want a, I do, I want a prophetic word because God, your word is not enough. Mm. Do I need a prophetic word? Because I need somebody to tell me I'm important because you telling me I'm important is not good enough. Right? Am I insecure and I want to be healed? So now I can build a ministry platform off being the person that was healed. Ooh. Like you have to ask, you have to be honest with yourself of why you're disappointed. Mm-hmm. Um. My, my favorite example of this and, and I know there's a lot of different opinions on things, and that's beautiful. This is America. Uh, I was, when Bill Johnson's wife passed away, uh, he spoke Bill. Bill Johnson is the, the pastor at Bethel? Yes. For those of you who do not know in Red California, yes. I'm so sorry. Yes, I know. A lot of people do know, but yes, uh, he had a wife that had cancer and. Uh, if I understand correctly, don't quote me on this, but if I understand correctly, she had had a cancer before and through treatment and things had, had been okay, and then it had come back. Okay? And this, this preacher, this, this movement is like very big into healing, right? They've seen, oh, Lord, who knows how many, like cancer, like cancer being healed is a very normal. Thing. It's one of those testimonies, they're like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great. Where, which sounds very crazy. Yeah. But that's just so much of the culture and the DNA of what they built and cultivated. Yeah. And one of their, even their core values, they're like in the name of Jesus, this city, this church, this is gonna be a cancer free zone. Jesus paid for a, Jesus paid for healing, and I'm not gonna stand on the outside and not see him. Like that's kind of like their intentional approach. Right. And his wife passes away from cancer on a, I'm almost positive, on a Saturday. We go to church on Sunday the following morning, and he's there to speak, which we, and you never know who's gonna speak usually on a Sunday morning. Yeah. But Sunday came up and they were like, okay, so we are having, bill Johnson is here to speak and we're so excited. Our, I remember my whole section, like there was an audible gasp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like what in the world? Like why is he here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like I be under a couch somewhere can cannot imagine. Right, right. And we're sitting there and he gets up and he speaks, and obviously he's like crying and he's doing his best. He did obviously a phenomenal job, but obviously you can imagine the toughness of having to. Speak to people and wanting everybody to know you are the healing guy whose wife didn't get healed. Right. Like just all of that. Yeah. And he, he's speaking and he says, you know, I remember him saying the disappointment is huge, but God is not a vending machine that I get to put in my quarter. Yeah. And pull the lever and him do what I told him to do. Right. He's not a Janie, he's not, he's none of those things. Yeah. And when I'm here on earth dealing with disappointment, I only have so many moments to give him a worship offering that I cannot give him in heaven. Yeah. I can't give him worship in heaven in the midst of unanswered prayers in heaven. It doesn't, it doesn't work that way. Mm-hmm. So, so when I'm here with a broken heart and. Doing my best to stand on the word of what I feel like Jesus paid for and what the word says, and so on and so forth. Done everything I knew to do and it still didn't happen. And I know you do it 'cause I saw you do it like two days ago. Right. For somebody else. Right, right, right. But you didn't do it here. I have to. Stand in the mystery of who you are. Yeah. And I have to worship you because you're good anyway. Yeah. I don't, I don't get it. Maybe in a few years I'll get it, but I don't fully understand here. But my job right now is not to get it. My job is to worship you for your goodness. Yes. Yes. And I think when it comes to people in faith, I've seen people, you know, I, I heard one minister say, and I loved this, and it said, faith works where faith is put to work. I think there's a lot of awesome application to that. Right, right. Like put it to work in your finances. But I've seen who knows how many people they started tithing and it worked in their finances, even though a lot of people are like, I hate tithing. Like, I, I get it, but I, what do you do What he, with, what God did in these people's life? Absolutely. And I think it is just a situation I, you have to pay attention to what you're disappointed by. And I think you have to, at the end of the day. Be like, Lord, I just wanna put myself in the way of what I feel like you've made available. Mm-hmm. And I'm gonna learn, and I'm gonna grow just like everybody else learns and grows. And I'm gonna, I'm not gonna abandon this for something shiny. I'm not gonna abandon the word of God for the prophetic word of God. I'm not gonna abandon worshiping you and the beauty and the splendor of holiness because you're worth singing about and you're worth giving my attention to. I'm not gonna abandon that for now. If I praise a certain way, I'm gonna get a breakthrough. Like it's not that they counteract or that they even fight each other, but I think oftentimes we get hurt because we abandoned the foundational anchors for the shiny new sails. Yeah. Both are part of the same ship and they're awesome and they all pay, play a different role. Some smaller, some bigger, right. But I think a lot of it is, Lord, if you are the goal. And, and if you have something to say to me through a total stranger who has a word for me, well, Lord, I, I wanna know. 'cause I want to know you. Right, right, right. And I think it's just making sure the math is lined up. Yeah. Is, is, and I know that's practical for a lot of people. 'cause a lot of people just wanna be in the middle of prophetic all the time because you just need one other person to tell you you're gonna be a millionaire. And I get it. And I think that's awesome. That's powerful, that's needed. But I think it's also a scenario where. I, I think it's also beautiful to me. I've gotten a lot of words where I'm like, wow, never heard that before. That's, that's great. Let's see what God does with it. Right. I've also been in scenarios where somebody says something where I'm like, God, only you and me have talked about that. Yeah. That means way more to me than somebody giving me some random word that I'm called and appointed and all this stuff. Yeah. Somebody being like, I just feel like you need to know this, this, and this, and I'm like. God, that's secret place stuff. Right. And I think being hungry for the secret place stuff and the yes and amen of secret place stuff mm-hmm. Is amazing. Yeah. I think it is one of those things, again, as cheesy as it sounds like, I catch 'em, God cleans 'em. It is like, Lord, it's not my job to figure out why you do or do not heal some people. Right now you are healing somebody and you are not healing somebody. I do not know what to do with that. Right. But that. What I need to be concerned about is, Lord, when it's on my plate to ask, I'm gonna ask you for healing. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll let you deal with the rest. Absolutely. I'm going to put myself in the way and be like, Hey, I don't know this person. I just want you to know, this may sound weird and this may sound out of left field. I don't even know if you believe in God or any of this. I just want you to know like my God sees you and he like has a heart after you and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like that. And allowing the Lord to do the other side of things instead of you doing everything because you love the thrill of the outcome. Yeah. I think is gonna have the biggest difference. And instead just being like, Lord, I love just being with you and doing what you're doing. Yeah. Outcome can be whatever it wants to be. That's good, man. Let yourself off the hook. I think the, a lot of the faith movement gets a bad rap because it. It became so obsessed with the outcome. Right? Right. And the outcome is proof of the faith. Instead of the faith is just putting yourself in the way of what you feel like God has promised. The outcome is like, well God, you do whatever. You need to do. Right. Well, Tyler Richardson, thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast today. Yeah. I mean, seriously, look up to you a lot. Um, I know I followed you for a while online. I've seen you in circles as young as when I was 9, 10, 11 years old, and I saw you up on stage at the ramp. Um, and then seeing you just go from, you know. The university, you were on staff at Bethel and now you're back in Tennessee. Oh, man. We're back back, Tennessee. We're back. Uh, but yeah, I gotta, I gotta read your book, how to Survive Working for God. Um, I definitely, I definitely need to do that. Links in the description and the podcast show notes. And thank you to Tyler. Um, because before I even launched the Worship Keys podcast, you are the one that said you should go for it, you should do it. And I think within this whole discussion, uh, within your church culture. If you're around people that are like, Hey, I'm leaving for a miracle for my baby. I'm leaving in this, this, the other. And they're like, Hey, let's go for it. And they rally behind you. Those are the people that you wanna run with. Yeah. You wanna take hold of. Um, so thank you for your encouragement. Oh, thank you, man, on this podcast. And this in no means, uh, was, is going to solve all your problems on your church leadership dynamics. We didn't even get to, we didn't do a very therapeutical, uh, or a psychological, we didn't do like a big diagnosis of things. Lots of things that can be involved with pastors, like narcissism and all the other things. Absolutely. That we're not, we didn't even touch today. No. But I hope you do get to on your podcast. Yes, absolutely. And in your book, in your course, there's a lot of things that we can get to and some things you just need to go see a therapy, you know, like honestly, some things, a podcast episode or even a book, not gonna fix some of these roots of the problem. But I love that you talked about, uh, you know. Being planted, being rooted, the pot that you're in, um, your environment, all that matters. And so thank you for sharing. Yeah, man. Experience. Thank you for having me. I love everything you're doing. You're building. Thank you, bro. You creating a safe space for people that I don't think have had a voice properly. And thanks man. I, I love just seeing the beginning stages of the ripple effect that's gonna come from people actually feeling like here I have a safe space to actually speak. Where before I'm just. And the shadows doing a, doing a role. And here I actually am a person and somebody with something to say bravo. Man. I'm Thank you bro. Seriously. Thank you Tyler. So y'all connect with him. Tyler Richardson, um, Spotify, apple, Amazon for his book socials. Yeah, definitely look him up. Um, and dude, I'd love to have you back again. Absolutely. 110%. You're, you got some other stuff up your sleeves that, uh, we can't announce. Yes. We're working on it, but I would love to talk about later. Yeah. Um, resources specifically for you guys as keys players, worship leaders. Um, again, Tyler's incredible voice. Great. With songwriting. He's back in Tennessee, so if you know him, you love him, you're friends with him, hit him up. Be like, yo, I didn't know Tyler was back in Tennessee. He is. Yeah. Back on the east. He's back over here. So, um, y'all have a great day. Thank y'all so much for following along, whether that be Instagram, TikTok, subscribing here on YouTube, uh, leaving a rating and a review on Spotify or Apple to get this podcast even further. We are a hundred episodes