Have We Over-Produced Our Worship Services? with Michael Walter

Watch on YouTube 

Aerospace Audio

Michael shares his first Winter Jam experience playing keys and organ for Kayden Nicole, discusses the demands of navigating shared keyboard setups, and recounts how he joined The Choir Room shortly after moving to Nashville in 2022. They talk through worship-leading pressures versus being a keys player, the importance of reading the room, leaving space in services, and avoiding over-manufactured transitions. Michael reflects on church staff life, volunteer leadership challenges, rehearsals, burnout, and using tools like Planning Center, emphasizing the need for ear training, the Nashville Number System, and continual growth and creativity. They close with Easter song ideas and thoughts on “flashy” versus musical playing. 

Michael Walter

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Worship Keys podcast. My name is Carson Bruce. We talk all things music theory, gear, industry, and ministry for your worship keys playing. I'd like to thank Aerospace Audio for being a sponsor of this episode. They create unique. Incredible high quality atmospheric drone pads to be used for your worship services, productions, songwriting sessions, whatever it may be. They have an analog physical drone pedal that they call atmosphere. There's actually a version three out. They also have a MIDI end capability, so you can work in tandem with Ableton Live. Or any other dog that you have to be able con to control everything through that ecosystem. Or if not the physical analog pedal. They also have an iOS app that you can run the pad straight from your iPhone or iPad. It's called Aero Pads. Definitely check them out, aerospace audio.com and let's get into today's episode. Hey guys. Welcome back to the Worship Keys Podcast. So glad you're here. This is your first time. Uh, you guys are in for a treat today because I am with Michael Walter. Michael, welcome to the podcast, man. What's up, man? I'm glad to be here. I'm so glad you're here. I mean, this guy has been playing with the choir room. Yes. You've been playing with. Uh, aware worship. Yep. Captain Noel. Yep. Incredible people. The list goes on and on of incredible people that you've been, uh, playing with and even been on tour with. Winter Jam. Winter Jam. Yep. Currently. That's, that's awesome. It's, and we're gonna talk about that a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, this is gonna be a good episode y'all with, with Michael here, but I do wanna, first and foremost. Um, thank you guys, of course, for tuning in. Whether you're listening on Apple, Spotify, you're over here on YouTube. Um, if you know Michael, let us know in the comments. Be like, I know Michael, I love him. Um, let us know. Share the love with, with Michael today, but also, uh, let's share the love for aerospace Audio. Thank you to Aerospace Audio for being a sponsor of the Worship Keys podcast. Honestly, so thankful for you guys for sponsoring, uh, making sure that this podcast can keep going so they make atmospheric. Drone pads and it's a physical pedal, which in the background of you, Michael, we have it here on the piano. That's the version two. It's also version three out. So there's like an analog physical pedal, and there's also arrow pads, um, app as well. So you can run it on your phone, your iPad, or you can download the actual wave files, run it through Ableton. If you guys are all unable to, so check them out. But anyways, um, Michael, I want to talk about since the, the most recent thing you've been doing is Winter Jam. Yes. So tell us about the Winter jam life. Who you playing for? What you doing, man? So, yeah, this is my first time doing Winter Jam. Um, but I'm playing for Katy Nichole having fun. Uh, I've actually never played for her before, before Winter Jam. Um, but she's great. She can sing. She's got some pipes, man. Does she, does she, I mean, oh my goodness. She gets out there every night and just. Rips, are you on keys or organ I'm playing so I'm actually both actually playing a little bit of both. Okay, bro. Okay. You know, of course it's not the organ, like I grew up Hammond, organ but you know, we're thankful for uh, you know, I think it's a Hammond, I think it's XK four. I think them playing and of course, the Nord, you know, you gotta have the Nord. Gotta have the Nord man. Gotta have the red keyboard. That's right. That's right. Are you on the like stage three or stage four? I think it's stage four. Okay. I think it's stage four. Y'all, y'all are big leagues, you know, got the newest. You know, I mean, they got, I feel like they're all similar in some ways, but you know, I just feel like it's a big computer man. Yeah. Just you look at it, it's just nothing but buttons. Absolutely. Absolutely. Look like big spaceship. Right, right. That's crazy. I try to navigate that every night, but I've got the setting saved something like, okay, because I'm not the only one using it. Yeah. So it's like. What three other keyboarders that are using that. So I'm like, okay. As long as nobody messes up the settings, we're good to go. Totally, man. Totally. Well, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having me. Uh, we're gonna talk a lot about your life, um, your upbringing, like how you learned the piano. I wanna get back to like your roots, because by this point in your career, playing with the choir room, Dewan Hill. Mm-hmm. Marcus Perry, all those guys. Otto, shout out to all of them. Yeah. Love those guys. That's incredible. And a lot of, a lot of people are seeing you from the audience perspective. You're up there on Oregon playing with, with the choir room. Um, just the other day you said you were, you were playing Oregon at Mount Zion Church in Nashville and you're just having a great time. You've been a worship leader in Yep. Some capacities at different churches. Mm-hmm. And I wanna talk about that. So guys, we're gonna, we're gonna talk about, um, some tips. On how to learn the piano. Yes. Just from the basics. Yes. Uh, how to get proficient eventually. And also maybe some struggles you've had along the way. Um, just kind of encourage other worship keys players, other worship leaders, maybe even tech directors, people at churches. Yeah. And also navigating the industry side of things as well. Um, 'cause obviously you love Jesus. You love the Lord. Absolutely. And you know, this podcast, the Worship Keys podcast, worship is always first, a heart of worship and a heart, uh, for the Kingdom is always before. The heart for keys or for music or Absolutely, yeah. The theory. So we're gonna talk a lot about that, but also, um, I want to talk about the choir room for a second before we get Yeah, man, before we take it back. Come on. Let's talk about the choir room. Um, if you've ever been to a choir room perform, which I've actually, I've never been yet to, you've gotta come man. I need to. I need to, the choir room is waiting on you. I would love to come hop in. I'd probably hop in with the tenors. Yes. And try to sing my tenor part over there. You know, all are welcome. You know the tagline is everyone has a voice. Yes. You know, so Yeah. Everybody's welcome to come to the choir room. I mean, it's an experience like no other. How has your experience been? How long have you been playing with them? How'd you get connected? Man, so it's funny, um, the. So I moved here in 22. Um, and to Nashville. Right? To Nashville. And the choir room actually started the month after I moved here. Oh, wow. It's crazy. It's almost like only they said, Mike Michael's in town now only, so we're starting this. Only God could orchestrate something like that. Right man. And so, um, I, the orig the first, uh, choir room, I remember registering to go and all of that. And I was actually, uh. Not able to go. And so I ended up going to another event that I had a friend in town that invited me to, and they was like, Hey, you've gotta meet this guy. And I was like, okay, he's a great musician. You know all of that. And his name is Mike Hicks I don't know if you know that. Oh yeah. Oh man, he's amazing. You need to have him on the pod. I would love to. Incredible musician, artist, arranger, all of the things. So meet him and I afterwards, I remember telling him, I said, Hey, I was supposed to go to this new thing called the choir room. And he was like. Oh man, that's my bro Dewan and all of these different things. And so the next choir room that they have, he's sitting on the piano. So we've connected, you know, and all of that. And um, you'll probably be able to go back and see footage if you scroll down, you know, 'cause choir room has done a lot since then. But, um, they got to this old gospel song that I probably have not played well actually, like Choir song in years by Heka Walked, I think it's called. Lift Him Up. So Mike Hicks is sitting on the piano and he is looking in my, now I'm sitting like a choir member. Just like everybody. So I got my folder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all that. Like everybody, I'm just sitting there, I'm, you know, singing my part and You're incredible vocalist. Oh, man. I man, appreciate that, man. Appreciate that. So I try a little bit, so I'm sitting. Uh, in the, in the choir. And he points, so I'm thinking he's pointing to the person next to me while the song is going, mind you, Dewan has no clue what's going on. He's just teaching the parts. And so I'm like, and he tells me. So then I walk up and I literally play, like we're in rehearsal and I, I mean, I didn't know any of those guys before that night. Literally, I played that night. And the rest is history. Wow. Man. I've been a part of choir room ever since. That's incredible. Yeah, and I love the testimonies that I've come about because of these experiences. Like Yeah. Even that one concert where that person literally didn't have a voice. Oh man. Like they literally did not have any, their vocal chords or whatever it was. And, and what was it, a hymn that they sang? Yes. I think it was, was it greatest that I, I think it was, what was it? Uh, I Love You Lord, and I lift my voice. Oh yes. I love you, Lord. Lift my voice. And man, I'll never forget that moment. That clip is powerful. I mean, that was just, yeah, it was really, and you were in the room that you were playing organ that night. I was playing and we, what's crazy is we were in the same key. As her voice box. Wow. Only God. I mean, oh God. Only that really was a God moment. That's incredible. And I mean, the impact of course as we've seen that we were impacted that night, but Absolutely, of course the video came out and, I mean, it's touched so many people, but man, that was such a powerful night. I mean, I love that we almost. Did not get out of that moment because it was such a moment. I mean, worship, and people were crying and just, I mean, the God that we serve, man is such a good God and a powerful God. And this lady again, who thought she had no voice, was able to use her voice and worship the Lord. And um. It just shows us, man to be grateful for who, what we have. Yeah. Just as simple as having a voice to speak. Totally. To talk and to sing. And so, man, what a powerful night. I love that. So you're a songwriter, producer, Keith's player, worship leader. All the above. Mm-hmm. You've been on staff at church, but now you're, you're playing with a lot of artists mm-hmm. And a lot of groups. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which is, I, I'm sure a blessing. It's, tell us a little bit about your time in the church staff, like full-time church, staff world. Yeah. Um, as everybody, it's, uh, it can be a challenge and, uh, it's and a blessing. Yes. Uh, man. Yeah. So I've been in church. What feels like all of my life. Um, and so I've been playing keys, playing Oregon, um, doing some singing and, um, I just feel like n navigating different, um, spaces, uh, especially coming here to being in Nashville. Um, particularly, uh. Coming from being in all black space to being in all white space, how we, we definitely do things different, uh, from music side, from system side to all of those different things. So it's definitely been a learning curve. Uh, for me, but still the same, uh, goal as far as worshiping the Lord and encouraging people and engaging with people. And so, um, it's definitely a joy and I mean, I still enjoy being able to play and being able to even sing, um, when I'm able to and lead, uh, people from time to time. But of course, just like any other job, it is a job. And so. You've got, uh, goals, you've got, um, uh, in this case you're working with volunteers and so, you know, you're dealing with people and, uh, us was, people were imperfect. And so we've gotta try to hold, um, I'd say our, uh. Ourselves or give people, extend, uh, grace and have patience and all of that. And music is a very unique thing, uh, to work in and to be a part of, especially with church, because today I feel like in the church world, um, music is definitely much more polished than how it was. Uh, growing up I don't remember music being as, uh, polished, but it's a little bit more like you're kind of going to a production. Yeah. Uh, every Sunday. And I definitely think we should give God our best and excellence. So I'm, I'm all in agreement, uh, with that. But along the way, uh, there can definitely be. Uh, challenges, uh, just dealing with volunteers, whether it is, you know, people dealing with planning center. Right, right. You know, trying to get setlists together, uh, trying to find the right opening song or a song to go, uh, with the pastor's message. Yeah. Um. Or if you're in a series, you know, my worship leaders, you know, that, you know, trying to align the songs to go with the series. And so it's definitely, uh, it takes teamwork for sure to, to do it. And prayer, um, and wisdom. And I'd say even consulting other worship leaders and worship pastors. Yeah. Taking them, uh, to lunch and say, Hey. What, how did you do this? Or how do you navigate, uh, this? And so I think it's definitely made me, uh. A better person in the sense of I've grown a lot, um, I've grown in my relationship with the Lord, my relationship, uh, with people, uh, in music and just, I think it's, uh, shown at the end of the day, man, that, uh, we're all here, uh, to. Get the gospel out. Yeah. At the end of the day. And of course, being a worship pastor, a worship leader, you're doing that through the vehicle of music. Yes. Yes. And so everybody loves to be a part of it. It's attractive. Right. But of course it can be challenging of trying to, who's gonna sing this? Who's gonna play this? And you have so many people who are eager, uh, to be a part of that. And, um, you don't want anybody to feel left out. Right. Um, but the challenge is. Probably most worship leaders and worship pastors know everybody can't sing every Sunday. Right? Right. And so you have to divvy up parts. You have to divvy up, uh, volunteers. Okay. Rotations and schedules. And so, uh, it's a lot to keep up with as you probably hear, as I'm, uh, talking. And so you really, um, you've gotta just be mindful, um, and. You've gotta, uh, realize that everybody has a gifting or, um, an ability to serve in a capacity. And sometimes, and I know, uh, you could have some hard, uh, truths and hard conversations you have to have with people at times where, um, this might not be the area of ministry, uh, or the place that they should serve. Um, especially if they are not, um, 'cause everyone wants to sing, right? And that's the thing. And everybody, and I know we talked about choir room earlier, everyone has a voice and that is true. But, um, I think we do have a responsibility to steward. Uh, what God has given us, whether that's the stage or the platform. And so who we have, because it is the, it is music and people are gonna be hearing this. Yes. Uh, we do want it to be pleasing to people's, to the Lord, but also to people's ears. Right. Right. And so, you know, that's why they have auditions and all of this stuff like that because just 'cause you sing in the shower. That may not mean you're supposed to be singing on the worship team. Right, right, right. Uh, as far as being on a mic. Right. Singing the choir, maybe not. Right, right. Singing the choir, I don't know about the worship team. Right, right. In other words, some people say they make a joyful noise, you know? Yeah. But, um, yeah, so you're dealing with people's hearts, man, and you want to, you want everybody to feel, uh, encouraged and uplifted when they leave your presence. And, um, I, myself. I'm not perfect, and so I'm sure that, uh. I've told people things and, uh, they didn't want to hear it. And, um, probably in some cases, uh, people got upset and offended or, you know, that, that comes with the territory of leadership. You know? Right. In leadership, you're gonna have to make decisions that are not properly, you're gonna have to make decisions and unfortunately, um, the consequences of that, uh, somebody's not gonna receive it well. Right. You know, somebody's gonna have to hear the word No. Yes. Everybody can't hear the word yes. Mm-hmm. You know? And my job is, I try to do it as prayerfully and delicately as I can. Um, yes, yes. In those spaces, you know? That's good, man. I wanna talk about the difference between you as the worship leader you. Michael Michael Walter. Mm-hmm. And the keys player. You, Michael Walter. Okay. And you said you've been playing a little bit at Mount Zion. You have the freedom to play sometimes at different churches if you want to. Yeah. Um, and talk about the, the pressures that come with worship leading versus just being able to be on the keys. Like talk about that man being upfront, you know, like. A lot of people, uh, I'll just be honest, uh, even knowing what to say, you know? Right. Like, if you really think about it, like the start of a service, how do you start the service? How do you make everybody feel welcome? You know, because Right, right. The first song is usually it's the beginning of service. Everybody's coming in. It's like, man. You know, and some people are coming in, they've had a long week, they're tired. Um, they're not paying attention, they're sad. Or you know, just life. It could be just lifeing for people. Right. And so you wanna, uh, be able to plan a set list, which that is, people don't realize that's a job in itself. Right, right. Try and I think sometimes too, uh, we have to give ourselves grace as worship leaders. Uh, I'll, you know, speak even from my experience of. You do the best that you can. Um, but you'll never plan the perfect set list every Sunday. Yeah, yeah. You know? And, um, I feel like sometimes at least I'll speak for me, you can find yourself chasing the high. Of last Sunday. Mm-hmm. Because it was like, oh man, it was so good and all of that. But um, every Sunday is not like that, you know? Right, right. Um, and I think, uh, that's something that we. Have to realize that in the rhythms and the routines of things because you can't get in a routine of doing this. Mm-hmm. When, because you can lead and not have heart right. In while you're leading. And, um, I think that. That is something that all worship leaders and worship patterns in some capacity has to fight. You know, the burnout and all of that doing, 'cause you enjoy doing this, but we are human. Yeah. And we get tired and we get burnout and um, sometimes we just need a break. We need to take a step back or even be refreshed and all of those different things. And so, um, I think. Being a worship leader for sure. Picking out a set, knowing what to say. transitions Yeah. Um, all of that stuff can be high pressure because all eyes are literally on you. Right. You know, and what you're speaking and people are taking that in. And the pressure to, uh, one saying things that of course that align with the word of God. Uh, but two, that again, that's gonna leave people encouraged, that's gonna Right. Uh. Ultimately lead people to Jesus. Yes. Um, through, through worship. And so that's a heavy responsibility. That's not something to take lightly. Right. Um, from a, uh, natural and a spiritual Yes. Uh, especially spiritual perspective. We don't. Take that lightly. And so it is a privilege, it is definitely an honor, uh, to do that. But I think we have to be reminded, I, I remember hearing somebody, uh, say this, that we don't got to, we get to mm-hmm. And I think being, uh, mindful of that, yes, we get to do this, we get to worship, we get to lead God's people, we get to, uh, play and then. Uh, for the Lord and engage in our music ministry in such a way that will bring glory to God. I love that man. You know, it's a privilege. Amen. Amen. You know, not a right. Yes. Yeah, totally. Amen. It's a privilege. And here on the Worship Keys Podcast we are. We are for the local church. Yes. We are also for, uh, industry artists and, and people that are playing in the industry such as yourself as well. Yeah. So we want to support the local church, the body of Christ, and we never want to tear that down into Right. We're not here to tear that structure down. No. Um, we want to encourage you guys that are in the church Yes. World. But I do wanna talk about the, the concept of. Of being almost overly manufactured. Um, we, again, we need structure and there needs to be structure. And as people in general, we like predictability. Mm-hmm. Like you said, your wife's an educator. Yep. Um, I know we haven't said that since we started recording, but you said your wife's an educator. She's an educator and a lot of, uh, especially kids, they like plans and structure. Absolutely. But let's talk about the church role for a little bit and about how like, um. Does it ever feel like, what kind of things are we over manufacturing in churches these days that you feel, man, you know, I think sometimes I just wish that we were, uh. Able to let I'm, when I think of transitions, uh, sometimes, and I get it, sometimes it's like we're trying to figure out the perfect transition. But I think just sometimes just letting things breathe and just taking a moment Right. Sometimes I'm just, I just believe we don't have to fill every space of the service. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think sometimes we can just let things be for a little while. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, that as. Uh, human beings, we can sit still, we can be there long enough. We're intelligent, you know? Um, and, and I think too from a spiritual standpoint, when you're, people are experiencing the presence of God, um, just letting them, having that space and, uh, just being sensitive, I, I really, that's my heart. And the concern is that we just be spiritually sensitive to people and what's happening in the room. Come on, in the moment. Um, because you just never know what God is doing. And I never at least want to be in the way Of what God is doing in the moment. So I do think that, um, in our attempts to plan, and we absolutely should plan that we still make space. I know there's a song called Make Room. Make Room. Yeah. I, I think we've gotta make sure that with all the planning, with all that we're doing, uh, Sunday after Sunday. That we still make room for the one that matters. That's good. That it's all for him. Yeah. At the end of the day, everything that we're doing, all the rehearsing, all the preparing. If he's not there, if he doesn't show up, if we're not experiencing his presence, what is this all for? That's good, man. I think reading the room is a huge thing. Yes. I wanna, I wanna lean more into that. Yes. 'cause when you're at Winter Jam, y'all don't have time to read a room of 50,000 people No. Or whatever it is. No. When you're in an arena, like you're, you're getting things. You're in and out, you are going to edit out. Yeah. And it's, but it's an enc it's encouraging music. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And it, and God glorifying and people are still coming to know the Lord through the this structure. Absolutely. But let's talk about reading the room for a minute. Yeah. Because I'm sure you as the worship leader, understand this when you're leading, you understand the Now, when you're on the keys. You're playing, you're making sure the music is great. Mm-hmm. You're laying, whether you're on organ or keys. Absolutely. You're doing your part. But as a worship leader, you are trying to see how's the vibe between the people Absolutely. And us. How are we, how are we operating this? And talk about that feeling of. Obviously when you, you might do a song at the, maybe it, oftentimes it's at the beginning, but it doesn't always have to be. Right. You might do a song and you, you already feel it like people are not connecting with the song. Right. Or this is not going anywhere. And so you're like, yeah, so like you're keeping the set. Lets moving. So sometimes it's like, yeah, let's not go to that extra bridge 'cause we need to end this now. Yes. It is not landing very well. It's not going you. Right. Right. Maybe we try this again in a few weeks. Absolutely. And then some songs you're like, oh my goodness, I'm never gonna leave here. So talk about those moments where you, where you feel it, whether it is. Okay. This is, this is, this is a flop. Let's keep moving. Or is so good. Let's keep going. Talk about that a little bit. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree with it. I think it's having, it takes courage. It takes courage to go, yeah, this is, this is not it. And I, I think, of course this can be, um, layered because. If you do or have the ability, and I'll say this, have the team, um, who is able to accommodate, uh, being able to do something spontaneous, um, or do another song. Um, whether that's a leaning, uh, from the spirit or just, you know, wanting to shift kind of the atmosphere in the moment to kind of get people to engage and, uh. Sing, uh, in the room. Um, that's important. Um, but of course the other side of that is if people are already there, like you, you can sense it like, man, we are in this moment. And of course, you know, there is a time 'cause there is always a clock. Right, right, right. Uh, and you know, the Bible says doing things in decency in order. So we always want to be in order, uh, with our leaders and all of that. But I think too, uh. Again, this, this is can be so layered, but I think hopefully as a leader, you're being wise and, um, you're establishing trust. Yeah. With your leader, with your pastor and all of that to where, um, he, he recognizes, uh, the spiritual leadership that you're providing even in that worship moment. Yeah. And. If things aren't necessarily moving in the timeframe that was originally talked about, that he's realizing, okay. Man, the Lord is doing something here. And, um, hopefully I, my prayer and my hope is that, uh, leaders would see this as this is actually gonna add, uh, be a blessing to the sermon, not take away from The message that's getting ready to come. Because I really believe, especially if it's a song right before the message like this, hopefully will open up the hearts of God's people to be ready to receive the word right, that God wants to deliver. Um, on that Sunday. So I think it definitely takes courage, um, practice, uh, because if your team, uh, is not, um, able to just go to another song spontaneously, then. That can be a wreck too. So you don't want, you, you definitely don't wanna do that. Yeah. Because then you, that, that will create a whole nother atmosphere. Totally. Uh, that you don't want. But yeah, it's, did you lead, did you lead from an instrument or were you just I have, so I've done both. Okay. I've led from keys and I've just held the mic. Um, what do you like to doung? You know, I'm trying to figure that out to be honest. Um, because of course I love playing. Um, there are certain places that I know I can go. Right, right, right. If I'm playing, then if you wanna add show another person is playing. Yes. I may not necessarily be able to go there. So maybe playing and uh, singing just from, just 'cause it's a personal preference of mine, but I. I also don't mind, um, another person playing as well. But yeah, I just think that sensitivity is just crucial on both sides. Whether the song is going well or whether you are in a moment in God's presence and you're realizing the time is running short. Um. Mm-hmm. And just. Being wise and even how you're wrapping up that moment where people are still able to, you wanna still lead them in that place, that sweet place. Absolutely. Uh, with the Lord, man, because at the end of the day, I truly believe we all need the presence of God. Come on now. Yes, sir. And granted, it's not just. In the service. It's not just in the church like we're the church, We're the, we're the body of Christ. But I think it's something powerful that happens when we gather, like the Bible talks about it's good. Um, man, we experience the Lord. We experience community. We experience the glory of God. It's so many beautiful things that happen When we come together. And so it's absolutely, uh, important. But yeah, being a worship leader and a worship pastor, it is our job to be, uh, sensitive. Uh, to those moments man, and to our team We can't neglect our team and their skill sets, um, as well as we're doing this. So it's, it is a heavy job for sure. I love that. And one thing we kind of hit on a few times on this podcast is that, um, and I know we're not talking about gear right now, we're talking about set lists Yeah. And about structure and you really, the musicality and, and being sensitive to the presence of the board. Mm-hmm. Um, but in order to do that, there are some practical things that come into play. Absolutely. And so we, we really, again, we're wanting to reiterate more than the gear. Like, oh, we using the north stage four. Right. Or we using like. A castio that we Yep, yep, yep. Absolutely. We've had for 15 years. Like, it's not really about the gear. Mm-hmm. It's more about the ear. Come on. And I wanna talk, I want you to tell us. Yeah. Because I'm just hosting this thing. Yeah. You tell us, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, let's talk about ear training because Yes, there's a lot of, we've had, we've had some episodes about, um, burnout in the church and, and things like that. And we don't want people to be burned out. We want to prevent that. No. Right. And one thing that we said that is controversial that people. Don't love when we say, um, but one big thing that, uh, Jamie with ascension worship mm-hmm. He's out, he's outta Florida and he's incredible. He actually goes and does training sessions for churches and he's surveyed thousands of churches. Wow. He said a lot of people get burnout, um, for different reasons. For sure. A lot of it can be trust within the, the, the, the senior, the worship pastor leadership and all these leader and the leadership. Um, some of it is that they have done like. So much for, for too long. Mm-hmm. And with that being said, um, some, some churches have experienced great results by eliminating their midweek rehearsal. Yeah. People do not think this. I want you to, I want you to touch on this. I want you to hit it head on. Okay. Some people love their, people just love their prep, their rehearsals. They love Absolutely. Their three hour rehearsals, practicing their three songs. Absolutely. And I want you, come on, Michael, I want you to share with us. That is not about, he is trying to get me. Y'all. I'm, yeah. Come on man. Listen, I want y'all to, I want y'all to really know this. Yeah. That there is a world that can exist that it, you do not have to practice that transition a million times every Thursday night or Wednesday night. Or Tuesday night, right. Like you can get to a point in your musical. Journey where mm-hmm. You know the song so well. Yes. And you feel it and you go, but that's easier said than done. For sure, for sure. So I want you to tell the people, man, um, and maybe, maybe this is a great opportunity to segue to your childhood. Okay. And when you learn piano, what happened to, to get to the point where you're, 'cause right now where you are, you can play by. Yeah, for sure. And someone starts singing, you're playing. Yes. Not everyone has that gift. Right. And we do understand that that's true. But there are, there, there. You did train yourself. There was some ear training to get there. Absolutely. And environment matters. Environment matters. And the time matters. The effort with the fundamentals at this time, bro. Tell us, tell us man, all those thoughts of I will. It's more about the ear and the gear. Mm-hmm. And take us back to your childhood, man. Yeah, it's definitely the ear. Um, me, uh, of course I started playing at a very young age in the church. Grew up in church and like you were talking about environment matters. Um, being around, 'cause you know, I started young, so being around older, uh, musicians and people sitting and watching and learning and, um. It was absolutely, uh, instrumental to me, uh, growing and becoming even the musician I've become today. And I remember having, uh, the liberty to just sit on the organ. 'cause in my church we had a organ. Yeah. You know, have an organ. And so I would just sit on the organ and I would just watch. Uh, the pastor's son was the organ, so I'd just watch him play and then I would try to go home and play what he played and then, um, or wait till service is over and then it was my time to play, you know? Yeah. Because most kids, they wanna run to the instruments of the church, know That's right. That's right. Music, they just, I don't know what it is. And kids, they just love it. Right. And they, they flock to it. And so, um, but at the same time, I would go home and I would practice for hours and hours. I remember my mom would be like, go to bed, you know, turn the keyboard off, but. I am now living in the fruit of the seeds that I sowed those years. You know, and so, um, when it comes to teams or even musicians, uh, and volunteers, um, there does have to be a practice element. I do not believe you have to practice, like you said, that transition, uh, the same transition every, you know, Thursday or Wednesday or Tuesday, whenever day you have a rehearsal. I think you, if you've got it, you've got it, maybe brush over it. Early Sunday morning in soundcheck, uh, just to make sure. Um, and yes, people are doing, I do think that when it comes to rehearsal in practice, people have to do what works for their team and works for their schedules. 'cause there are some people who rehearse during the week, and then there are some people who only do a Sunday morning. Right. And so. I, I'm not gonna say what's right or wrong. I'm, I will say though, do what is best for your team. Yeah. Um, because I think the most, uh, unhelpful thing you can do is to try to do what so and so is doing over here. And That's not a good fit for who the people that God has assigned you to, uh, steward. And so I do believe that from a practical standpoint. I would just say ask volunteers, when is a good night to do rehearsals and all of that. I like you said, I think it's not, when you're talking about being practical, it's asking questions, it's talking to them, it's finding out, um, even skill sets and, you know, all of that. And I know they have auditions, so hopefully that stuff is happening, uh, during the onboarding process. But if it's not, continue to ask questions of your team. Uh. Find out, um, who's available what nice. 'cause people have kids and games and all of that. So you're competing I to say it like that. But you're competing with all of this other, um, events that are happening in people's lives and, uh, work and all of that. So I think find out. What works best, uh, for the people in your team? And then, um, I'd say yes, you want to push them in the sense of everybody can grow, everybody can get better, but um, I think even in that, just be wise. Yeah. You know, because, uh, these are volunteers, especially volunteers. Yes. And they're not paid staff. Yes. Um, because again, we want them to want to still serve Absolutely. What we don't wanna do, like you were talking about that burnout, um. Because being scheduled all the time, or you know, they know, man, my time is gonna be gone midweek for three hours. That could be, uh, somewhat of a deterrent, you know, for people. Um, but yeah, again, I think, uh. From the worship, leader and Worship pastor standpoint, of course, try to pick songs that are easy to rehearse, easy, um, uh, to, um, do on a Sunday morning that you can work through and you could even schedule to have, I don't know, like a workshop. Day. You know, where you spend time with your team and maybe you try to do a song that's a little bit more elevated or a little bit more complex to help and even probably bringing somebody to come pour into your team. So there's a whole lot, uh, that you can do to help, I think, empower your team. Uh, to keep them encouraged. To keep them inspired, to keep them, yes, uh, uplifted and to continue to want to serve and be in God's house, you know? Local, the local church, because that's important. We wanna definitely, but we want people to serve. Um, with the good ear practice is important, but also with the good heart. With the right heart. That's, that's good, man. So I think if you're able to connect people's ears and their hearts. That man, I think you'll have something beautiful on Sunday morning and that's something that you, uh, I think one as the leader will enjoy, but also that they also as a team member will enjoy too. You know? I love that man. I love that. Have you ever had any instances where you wanted to flow or go spontaneous, but you couldn't and for sure ever a struggle? Like, did you ever offend some people? Did you ever try to go somewhere they weren't ready? I was gonna say, yeah, you have stories, you have some hard conversations. Um. I've definitely, especially if I'm not on the board, um, there's definitely can be, I can sense this urge of like, Ooh, we could've went there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and so there could be arou there and then there's sometimes. That could be, I would say, um. Well, you do have to have, uh, hard conversations with the person and, and saying, you know, just for instance, anybody who doesn't know the n the number system. Right, right. Um, no matter what key you're in, just learning something as basic and simple as that can help take things a whole nother level. Yes. You know, um, if there is gonna be spontaneity and again. With volunteers, I get a you, there is a fine line that you have to walk, but I think still. Even as a volunteer, finding a way to make them better. Yeah. And, um, to want them to come higher, you know, not stay where they are. I think if people are coming in your presence and encountering you, they should leave better, but they should, uh, leave higher than where they were. Yeah. You know, from a, uh, musical standpoint, from a knowledge standpoint, yes. Um, because we're all here to grow, we all want to continue to grow and learn spiritually, but in our case, we're talking musically as well. Yes. Right, right. And so that's. Um, definitely taking the time to hopefully sit down and listening to the songs before Sunday. Yes. Um, as a team, uh, member or volunteer, that's important, um, to try to pick out your part. You know, just, just little different things that you can do, um, that would help strengthen you. So when you're coming into. Rehearsal. Um, that could make it a little more easier, I think, on the worship pastor. Totally. Or the person who's running, uh, the rehearsal. Like, okay, but if this is the first time that you've listened to the music right, then it's like. Why are we even having rehearsal? Right, right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. And those again, yes, those can be some tough conversations, but I think they're ha they have to be had just like being late, you know? Totally, totally. Come on now. All of, all of those different things, you know? So, I mean, a part of it, I guess that's why I said it definitely has, uh, it's challenges being in authority and being, uh, a leader. They're necessary. It's necessary, um, conversations that have to happen. And I think when people look back in hindsight and if they truly know your heart, like we were talking about the heart as well, the ear, I think they know it's coming from a good place. And I think they will understand is the prayer. Hopefully they will. And for those who don't, um. We pray for them. You know, we pray because the ju the goal is never to offend anyone or to, um, make someone not wanna serve, uh, in the church or detour somebody, uh, from that. Yes, because we absolutely want everybody to be a part. But of course, just like within, there has to be, you know, guidelines and there has to be order. Totally. You know, or you would just have. Chaos is going on. Totally. You know, and the Lord's not in that either. Totally. You know? Totally. With national number system, a lot of us, Keith players were already so theory based. Yes. And oftentimes the keys player is the, sometimes the most theory minded person. Absolutely. On stage, uh, you know, in some circles. So talk about the national number system, how crucial it was to you. When did you learn that? What is that? Why do people need to learn that? Why do you think so? I, I think, of course, I'm a keys player. Um, so from, I'd say for, to be able to transition from one key. Uh, to the next key. Um, I think the numbers system can help you. One, I mean, you're talking eight numbers, right? And, uh, with the number or seven really, well, really seven, right? Because it repeats. It repeats. So I think one it's helpful for keys, players, singers. I think really anybody, if you're in music, it would not hurt you to, to learn that. Um, because. Again, I think it will strengthen your team and they'll realize, okay, you can lead them even if there's something you did not rehearse. If you're able to hold up, okay, hey, go to the five here, go to the one, go to the four. Then they're like, oh. Okay, this makes sense. Versus if they don't have that knowledge and you try to go into something spontaneous, it could probably be a train wreck. You know? Especially for everybody, like we said, most people that don't play by ear. Mm-hmm. So everybody's, uh, yes, they should train their ear, but everybody's ear is not able to just go right to. Uh, what the person is trying to accomplish that is singing. And so learning the numbers system is a practical way to strengthen your ear, um, and um, to strengthen your knowledge base of, okay, if this person says this number, oh, I can find that on the keys or on your guitar, um, whatever instrument or even vocally, right? You know, learning those skills. It's those basics, man. Yeah. That really give you the strength to be able to do. What we do at a higher level. Yes. Come on now. And now you're, I mean, you're playing with Winter Jam, you're playing with choir. The choir room in Dewan Hill. You're able to be at these places. You're going, going into Mount Zion Church in Nashville, which they have a standard too. Oh, absolutely. They're, they're tight, highest, they're locked. Absolutely. They're incredible. You have to be a, a, a, you know, a certain caliber to be on stage there. 100%. I mean, I think in most churches today, especially with live stream, right, and YouTube, um, everybody wants, you know, they wanna sound good. And so there is a certain standard, uh, that people are, um, trying to either reach or that they are already there and want to continue to move, uh, forward. And there's nothing wrong with that, of course. Everything in, uh, I guess I'd say within wisdom be, you know, be wise with people who, as you're, as you're pushing them, right. But yeah, there, there're definitely is, and especially for those who's doing this for a living. Mm-hmm. You know, um, I don't know. If you're just, if you take it out of, out of church for a second, anybody who is doing music for a living and an artist, you're gonna go hear them play. Especially if you're gonna go pay, uh, to see them, you're gonna want them to know the music To their songs and Absolutely. To, to be able to have a band that is capable. You know, if we, if we went to a concert and we paid money, and we get up there and the artist is like, I don't know what this song is, and the band sounds like they don't know what's going on. We're like. Yeah, man, what are we doing? Yeah. What are we doing? You know, can we get a refund? Right, right, right, right, right. So I think it's the same way, um, in a, in a sense, when it comes to, uh. Ministry what we're presenting, you know? Mm-hmm. Because there is a presentation. Yes. Uh, whether people want to admit that or not. There is a presentation that is happening every Sunday. Absolutely. Um, and we want it to be good. We want it to absolutely glorify the Lord, but at the same time, I'm just believing that as the presentation, um, we want to continue to take it at a higher notch, that people don't have to become casualties in the midst of us pushing. For better. That's good, man. That's good. Okay. Talk about this because when you're eight years old, 12 years old, yep. Growth is inevitable. Absolutely. Physically, you're learning a lot, you're doing a lot musically speaking, but then once you start hitting 25, 35, 40, you, you're, you're, you're plateauing. Mm-hmm. So speak to the teams that are there. There is such. Great things to be said about a worship leader that's been somewhere for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. Absolutely. Like being in a church planted that long is incredible. And applaudable, it's yes. Um, and if you have been planted in a church like that for a long time, that's incredible. That's honorable for real. And then especially not even the worship pastor, but then if as a worship pastor, if you have like a drummer and bass that's also been there for 10, 15 years, that's also amazing. And applaudable. They're lot. They're a lot. Yes. But then sometimes though. Sometimes you get into this rut where. You stop growing. Mm-hmm. And I'm not saying this is always the case. I'm not saying everyone who's right. Been locked together for 20 years. Don't, I mean, you're growing together for sure. But sometimes you get in your routine and you know what, like, I'm gonna print out the charts. We're not gonna use the numbers, so we're gonna, I we're not gonna progress. Right. And I want you to speak into that a little bit. Absolutely. Those who are too set in, what they've always done, therefore have not changed. Or maybe they, they haven't used, we, we, you, you know, you mentioned uh, planning center. Yeah. Planning center. Center. It be. Point of tension. There's a lot of work, but also playing for sure. Playing is a great tool. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like if we've never learned how to use a computer and actually chart or, or have a subscription to song select or do all the things. Yes. Like there are tools that make life easier, resources easier. Yes. Uh, but anyway, I just want you to speak on this that I, and I would just butt in here. I think, I think some churches just have not grown and sometimes just, just because you have been doing it, you just keep doing it. And how do you, what's your advice to those churches or worship leaders? Um, what's your advice there, part Paul, and part of what I think I may have talked about earlier, hopefully the worship leader. Or a worship pastor, they're having conversations with other worship pastors, but it, um, so please definitely do that. But I would say in addition to that, be willing to try something different. Be willing to, like you said, get on. If you'd never done planning Center, go explore and see what that is and try to figure that out and see, okay, how. Always be looking for ways to help better the team and ways. Of course, I know we're trying to make things convenient for people 'cause we just live in a convenient world. Right, right. That's just what it is, right? I mean, you're online in the snap of a finger. Yep. And so, um, I definitely think. Uh, getting those resources are absolutely, uh, important. The more that you, the more work I think you can do on the front end and the less work that volunteers have to do on the back end. Not saying they don't do any work, but the less work they have to do on the back end, I think that's just gonna make, uh, for. One, uh, easy collaboration and I think, uh, even the desire to want to collaborate. Yeah. Yeah. But I think if things are, uh, hard, um, or like you were saying, if people are, um, in a rut. Um, I think at some point that is where I think people probably may start to fall off. Um, and the team can start, you know, the, you wanna keep the morale of the team and all of that. So it's important man, that to be willing to introduce, uh, new systems, new resources, and it's okay. If it doesn't work, we'll try something else. Right. I think the challenge, I mean, I guess what everybody does is that afraid to fail. Right, right. But it's really not failure, it's feedback. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, okay, that didn't work, but we'll try this resource and eventually you will find something that works for the team. Totally, man. You know? I love that. I love that. Yeah. I do want to talk a bit, uh, a bit about, uh, more about ear training. Okay. Yes. And now we're on the subject. We're not, I, I won't change the subject yet. Yeah. Yeah. So like with midweek rehearsals mm-hmm. Don't you feel mm-hmm. Like, what are some, is there any way, I don't ever hear the churches doing this, but, um, what are some practical ways that you can help your team with ear training? So, like, for example, I don't know if this is warmups, warmups. Come on. Warmups. Warmups I think can be important. Um, just scales, you know, scale, I mean, mean taking through, whether that's singing or, um, even having musicians, you know, playing that. I mean, just again, the ba the basics, the fundamental, yeah, like being able, like, this is c because I, I joke and tell people like, a C here is a C anywhere. Anywhere that sea that's on that piano, whether you're playing that in Japan or Right, right. Africa. It's the sea. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think the more people are familiarizing themselves, again with music in general, but specifically whether it's scales and all of that, you will continue to grow and you'll find your ear gets stronger. But I think it is, uh, the. Well encouraged to try it to do it, and being willing to mess up. And the more you do it, it's like going to the gym. You gotta keep working that muscle. That's right. And the more you're working that muscle. You're gonna get stronger. Love that. And so I definitely think it's, it's that repre repetition, right? Yes. This is the student's glue. Oh, totally man. Totally. And I've heard of some worship leaders where they'll just, um, they'll do like a prayer or soaking session where they just kind of flow Yep. And just get into this prophetic flow and they sing scripture verses and they do things like that. Mm-hmm. And if you kind of, if you're like for, if you just did that as your worship player and you're on the keys and you invited your band to be with you, they could use their ear to try to pick up. Absolutely. Oh, you're playing that? Absolutely. 4, 5, 600, 3. Absolutely. And you're going there like a minor. Go to the F, go to the, you know, the one. You know, flat seven, I mean, all of those different, uh, things, you're right. So I think it's taking time. Maybe that is either another day or even in the same day having a band maybe meet a little earlier. But like I said, there are definitely ways to help people build that muscle, because I do think it's, again, letting people, oh. Okay. And then, then that builds confidence. Right, right. In them. Totally. You know, so not just something you told 'em. It's like, oh, I was able to figure that. It's kind of like, it's interesting, you know, 'cause I have a 2-year-old daughter. It, they're, they're in this. She's in this, uh, exploring phase, I feel like. Mm-hmm. So they're experimenting. I feel like as adults we can almost sometimes leave that. Yeah. But I think even as adults, we gotta come back to 'em, be like, keep exploring, come on, keep being willing and be like, oh, that's what this is. Stay curious. Right. Stay curious. I love that man. And I feel like when you're in churches, you need, you need space. You need spaces to be able to stay. Stay curious. Yes. And stay creative. And creative. Yep. Talk on this a little bit because sometimes in in church world, many of us. Even those who are, are listening, watching right now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You feel stifled. Yep. You feel like you're in a box. Yeah. And the goal is not, we don't wanna push you guys outside the church, so therefore no. Leave the church and, and go. We want you to stay in the church. Absolutely. And serve the Lord to the best of your ability. How can churches encourage creativity, um, and with the, with the heart of God as well, and biblically based? Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean. It's something as simple as, like you were saying, even having creative days, so maybe there is. Depending on, uh, the skill sets and things that are in your church and whether people write or um, what they play and all of that. Maybe just having a day where y'all just come together and it's not about sunday's Set. Hopefully all of that stuff is good. And you just said, and it was like, okay, what can we either write or what can we, I was playing them listening to this and just kind of brainstorming, just being able to kind of get up there, like you said, as a worship leader and just, Hey, we're gonna just sing, take Psalms 100 and we're going to sit down at the keyboard and we're gonna say, okay, and I'm gonna play this. What are you hearing here? Right. You know, all of that. Again, it's that exploring. Yes, and I think again. That also creates a level of, uh, buy-in from people that are also a part of that process. 'cause they're like, oh, I was a part of that. Yes, I was in the room when that happened. Absolutely. Because I think it can create a bond, uh, as well, um, there that it creates special. No, you'll, it's crazy. You'll think, man, is this ridiculous, but. Months later, or even years later, they'll talk about that time they remember it. I love it when y'all did that. Just like going bowling. Right, right, right. You know what I'm saying? Totally. It's creating those, it's creating a memory. Absolutely. Uh, for, for your team. And so I think it's having a creative day and people kind of coming in with a mindset, Hey, we're gonna be creative. And of course, you know, granted that could, uh, maybe, uh. Make some people nervous. 'cause they're like, well, what is this and how do I do this? But again, it's having the courage to be willing to. Do something like that and sit down with the team and kind of explain to them this is the goal of to, like you said, to be able to getting out of the monotony Yes. Of how we've doing things from week to week. Or if you're doing a song that you've already done, maybe there is a different tag or something you want to add. Right. I just think stuff like that, and of course ultimately going to, listening to other. You know, worship, uh, teams and of course people that listen to the elevations and the Oh yeah. You know, all of those different things, man. And just continue to, uh, just try stuff out, asking other worship, uh, leaders and other worship pastors, um, what they're doing, how they're growing in their team. And I think you take that information and however that can work with your team, man, use that man. Come on and glorify God, man. And, uh. Just watch your team, uh, just continue to grow and develop and, um, what's that? I just think that you'll just see a, uh, uh, inspiration, you know what I'm saying? And, uh, almost like a, um, I think joy. Yeah, because I think there's something joyous about creating, I mean, our God is the Creator. And we're made in his image and his likeness. So I just think that we are absolutely supposed to be creative. I think it puts a smile on God's face, but I think, oh, it put a smile on our face. Come on now. And the people around us. And so, uh, yeah, don't neglect that. Find a way and space. And I get it. We all got schedules and all of the different things, but I think if you can find a way, uh, to. Invite your team into something like that, or even partner with somebody who may be doing something like that, man. I think it's just, it's beautiful. Which goes on the line of like, you don't have to just be a cover band. You know what I'm saying? You can create your own even just arrangements. Absolutely. For even, even a brand new song. You can do your own arrangements. You can have and not, not just for the sake of. Being cooler hip? No. No hip, no, no, no, no, no. Right. If you wanna express yourself, and you're right, like those people will begin to have ownership and it's a memory. They feel out like they have more buy-in. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. That's that's in Absolutely. If you guys do right or do your own arrangements, let us know. Yeah. That you do. And also if there's better, if there's tools, specific tools that you guys use. Let us know in the comments of YouTube, like what tools are you guys using? Obviously Planning Center is a big one. Mm-hmm. I feel like that's, that's a big piece we're using, but if there's other apps or things that you guys are using for ear training or for charts. Um Yep. Charts. Yep. Let us know what you're doing to stay even stay creative. Let us know in the comments. 'cause it's just us two talking. Right. But we wanna know what y'all are, are thinking too. We do. Um, and we hope y'all are enjoying this conversation. We are gonna be wrapping it it up. Yeah. Very soon. But again, Michael. Michael Walter. You guys can follow him on Instagram. See his page there. Follow him along whenever he's playing Organ atm, Mount Zion. Or maybe he's on tour with Winter Jam or maybe he's on tour with Dewan Hill in the choir room or wherever the war's taking you. Kevin, whatever guy. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We worship. Um, I hope it's it. This episode's been awesome for you guys. Alright, y'all, I know this has been, um, a little bit of a, a more lengthy episode. Mm-hmm. But it's such a good, it's a good, it's a good convo man. Absolutely. And we don't have time of the day, but we do want to hear you play sometime. Yeah. Whether that's demonstrating some of your favorite sounds or maybe it's some of your favorite songs or maybe some theory stuff. Okay. We had an episode with Auto Gross Speaking of Auto, we Love, we love Auto. Yes. Excuse me. And I say, speaking of audio auto, because we were speaking of auto before we recorded. Mm. We pressed record, but I love auto. He's been on the Worship Keys podcast. Auto Grows. Y'all shout out to him. He's phenomenal. He's incredible. And he did an episode all about improvisation. Oh yes. Because you know he's a big jazz guy. Yes. Went to Berkeley. Yes. Um, but he has an incredible story where he learned piano bec when he had scoliosis and had surgery. That's right. That's right. And he's, 'cause he's a drummer Really. And then he learned, which is piano. Um, but he's incredible. He's a great arranger songwriter. Just a great guy. He really, no, really, I, I mean, I love him. I love, love all of those guys, man. I mean, again, those are dear friends to me. Yeah. They really are. Yeah, man. So a lot, there's a lot of episodes here on the Worship Keys podcast. We have over a hundred now, a hundred episodes, which wow, praise me to God. So y'all go check whatever, whatever you're wanting to, to, to learn. Maybe we have an episode on it so far, but we do wanna have another episode with you, Michael, where maybe we, um, teach something or do something, or, you know, uh, demonstrate something, stuff. Y'all want to hear 'em play, which you definitely need to hear him play. Um, but go follow him on Instagram too, and, and check out his stuff or see him live playing at Winter Jam. Oh yeah, choir room come through. But I do this final little segment, um, of the, of this, of the podcast today. I do wanna talk about Easter's coming up. So let's talk about some songs. Let's talk about some things, but on the subject of flashy versus like being musical. Mm-hmm. Can you speak into that? Uh, have you ever been accused of being too flashy? Uh, and what does that look like in the church world? Let us know. Tell us, man. Yeah. So, um, yes, being flashy, like you said, versus musical, I, I feel like it's really left to whoever the, the person who is interpreting it as, as such. Um, so I would say we're all listening to different styles and genres of music, and I think that maybe even. Uh, in history, it has almost been like an unspoken or a spoken rule of this is allowed to be played in church and this is not, uh, to be played or you don't do this or don't, you know, shouldn't do this. Mm-hmm. Um, but I think at the end of the day, it's like people, it's, it's music. It's the gift that God has, uh, given us. And so whether I'm playing, uh, VI IV I V um, that can honor God, but also, uh. B flat, major seven, you know what I'm saying? f diminished can also honor God in just the way, you know, so I think us not putting a cap on the music, and granted, don't get me wrong, you definitely, uh, placement is key. Yeah. So I'm definitely not saying, you know, you got an intimate moment happening and then you just got a f diminished happening right there. Like that's probably not the place to put diminished chord. Um, but. Uh, that doesn't mean we completely get rid of, uh, you know, all of those things. Again, there are tools, that are accessible to us that we can use to glorify God. And so I would encourage, uh, people to just reframe. I'll say it that way, how they, uh, view music. And so I think in church, I'm hoping we will reframe it and say, okay, I'm hearing something that's a little bit more musical than I'm used to. Uh, but that doesn't mean that it's not useful. That's good. You know? And so I wanna encourage people to dig in. That's good. And, uh, hey, try to pursue a little bit more musicality in church. And, um, ultimately, uh, whether it's volunteers or even uh, paid, um, uh, personnel. People want to have fun with music, man. Right. Man. And musicians wanna play. That's right. You know what I mean? They do, they do. Musicians wanna play. Singers want to sing. And so I think. Helping, uh, having the ability to be able to be musical. It makes your experience, uh, fun. Totally. And even as a group playing together or as a team, uh, playing and singing and, uh, praising and worshiping the Lord together. And so I think absolutely. Reframe, or I would say replace the word flashy, uh, for musical being musical in that it's not a bad thing to be musical. That's good. And again, everything does have its place. Totally. Uh, but yeah guys, let's open up because I mean, I would say during. The Easter and during Christmas we have these big productions and on church, and we're definitely doing more than what, 6, 4, 1 5? You know what I'm saying? And so. Let's see if we can extend that year round and just see what happens. And, uh, just see man, have fun. I think that's important. Like we gotta have the joy of the Lord and church. That's good. You know, the Bible says, oh, um, that the joy of the Lord, uh, it is our strength. And the Bible also says, magnify the Lord together. And so I think that we can magnify the Lord together with an f. Sharp, major chord. Yeah. We can magnify the Lord, uh, together with suss as well. You know? So I think it's both of those things that we can, to me it's not an either or. It's a both and that's good, man. So let's see it as both, and I love that. Let's be musical, man. Let's have fun. It's music. It's a gift that God has given us. Let's use it. Yes sir. Yes sir. Let's enjoy it Now, you know, statistically. Christmas and Easter, that's when the most people come. For sure. So we have the most opportunity to tell them the gospel. That's true. Speak very clearly. Absolutely. Precisely. And, uh, we're very intentional with that. That's true Because of that, however, speak a little bit about, um, do, do you think that churches put. Too much pressure on doing something more outta the norm for Christmas and Easter. 'cause there is a thought like, Hey, let's just do what we normally do normally do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Jesus will be glorified. And people come to, and then sometimes they're like, no, we gotta do extraordinary stuff. But then what happens is, okay, I'm gonna let you speak, but what, what are the dangers if you do something totally abnormal on Easter and Christmas? And then we wonder why people aren't coming back on other Sunday. Okay. You go, you take this away. Yeah. I think the cha, I think, I think again, it is not right or wrong mm-hmm. Or anything like that. I do think though what ha I think can happen is again, because with these big productions, especially in church, uh, when people are coming to your. Uh, Easter service or Christmas service, there is such a standard, right? That's happened. And then what happens is the follow the next Sunday, they're like, oh, wait a minute. You know, it is not as, uh, theatrical or as live as, uh, then. So it can almost, for some people it may be like, well man, I thought it was kind of like this all the time, which it sets a good first impression, but again. We're talking, maintaining. And so it's not necessarily right or wrong. Um, and I think if you decide to do what you always do, there's nothing wrong with that, um, either. Um, because I think ultimately, like you were saying, it is about getting the gospel, um, out to the people. And so I think. If you are gonna do the big boisterous presentation, do it and do it well. Um, but I wouldn't, I would say don't put so much pressure for it to be perfect, to be, you know, it's gonna be what it's gonna be. And, uh, you know, we pray to pray that, uh, God gets the glory out of that, Or if you're gonna do some, keep it simple and, uh, keep it light. God also gets the glory out of it. It's his story at the end of the day. And so the way, uh, we express it. Um, God is kind enough that we get to choose how we express that. Come on. Um, but ultimately, um. We wanna make sure that he's glorified. The gospel goes forth. We celebrate that he's risen. And of course he's coming back again. Come on now. Amen. Come on, man. Amen. That's church. That is church man. Let, let's go right now. Well, we know Easter's coming up here just. Some weeks, man, it's just maybe a month or or less when people are, are watching this episode. Mm-hmm. So let's talk briefly about your f favorite songs around the Easter Okay. Resurrection Season. Um, and I'll, I'll, first, I'll share one song that's Sure. Newer from Upper Room. Okay. Gracie Binion. Mm-hmm. Um, it's called Hosanna, uh, which. It's a great song, right? Uh, great, great title, right? Already it is, but I wanna read the lyrics because it's really awesome. So if you guys haven't heard it, you need to go listen to the song. I mean, the musical aspect of it is powerful. Mm. Um, the bridge is just, it's just, it gets humongous. It's just, it's incredible, but it's full dynamics. I, it says this song's up, down, up, down, and like, it's, well, it starts off pretty soft, but it's a good, beautiful piano part. Oh. And also thank you guys again for being a part of listening, watching this episode, whether you're on YouTube, apple, Spotify, if you're on, if you are on YouTube and you're a worship leader, especially, let us know what you're doing. What's your set list for Easter coming up? Let us know in the comments. Um, but okay. I wanna read these lyrics from Hosanna, uh, Gracie Binion, uh, upper room. You're familiar with this place. You've been down this road before. There's a garden where you wept, where your tears had soaked the floor, and in all your earthly days, you never wavered in your works, that the fathers will be kept, the cup you endured. And then this is the course from Gethsemane up to Calvary. You learned obedience through your suffering, and in the crushing you said, not a thing, Lord. It pleased you to endure it all for the ones that you would call. Your own. Verse three. You taught us how to pray through the pain you'd come to know. You said, hallowed be your name and let your kingdom come. So I opened up my hands to receive this bitter cup for my daily bread's been broken. I'm washed by your blood. Repeats the course again. Yeah. And then the bridge goes. Um, and this is, this is great. Uh, just brings you back, but it's easy. So give me oil in my lamp. Keep me burning. Wow. Give me oil in my lamp. I pray. Gimme oil in my lamp. Keep me burning. Keep me burning till the break of day. They repeat that for a while, and it's just like this standard, just like 4, 5, 1 of three times, but. It is like, it's good, man. That takes you back though. That last line takes me back. Wow. Wow. And then it just goes, uh, sing Hosanna, sing Hosanna, sing Hosanna to the King. And they repeat that for a while. The one who's worthy, the one who's worthy sing Hosanna. And then, um, verse four. When I look back on this garden and my spirit leap again, God forbid, I live a moment where I let myself forget the indescribable aroma that my being still recalls the sweet fragrance of your oil poured out when you gave it all. Wow. Isn't that powerful man? That is powerful. That is good. Y'all go check that out. Yeah, add that to your place. Wow. So good. Okay, man. What songs have been, and that, that just came out in 2025. Oh yeah. So I am hoping and praying some churches will just lay into that and do that. Um, again, it won't be a super familiar song Right. But it potentially could be a familiar song. Oh. When you get to that end though, that give me oil money that will, that won, that will, that'll bring some familiarity. People that will resonate for sure. And you could always tag, you know, especially with the older, uh, you know, uh, members, they'll definitely love that. Totally, man. Um, yeah, for me, um, I'm kind of go old school, man, come on, bring it back. Bring it back because I grew up. Uh, and of course, um, you know, resting, uh. Heaven now, uh, Ron Cannoli. Mm-hmm. As a kid listening, uh, to his music, my mama play that. Um, but he has a song. Celebrate. Celebrate Jesus. Celebrate, celebrate. Oh man, that's some good stuff, right? We gotta bring some of that stuff back, y'all. Um, so that one, um, let's do that. The choir room sometimes. That would be fun. Yeah, that would be fun actually. Yeah, that would be good. Um, and then of course, Lord, I left your name on high. That's a class you came from Heaven to show the way from the earth to the cross. My dad pay from the cross to the grave. From the grave to the sky. Lord, I live your name on I. I mean, just come on now. That's so good, right? Yes, yes. Ally, melody, all of that is good. So yeah, I love those, man. I love stuff like that. So, and, and of course the new stuff. That's out to Resurrected King. That stuff is great elevation, you know? But I know people are doing all of great things. I mean, you Michael, Bethany, I know he released a Easter song last year. I can't remember the name of it, but I mean, just so many people are doing great. Absolutely. So add all of those to your Easter sets. Totally. At least pick one, you know to do. Man, that Will And I live forever by Carrie job. Oh. The grave began to shake, storm was rolled away. Oh my. The story. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's the story. It's that, see what you, that that's powerful. Yes. Then that big four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's dude. Yeah. Yeah. And that song, you know, it's, there's, it's, it's been around for a little bit now, but it's still so powerful for Easter, Easter Sunday. Man, I, I just believe that no matter how long. His song has been around. A good song is a good song. That's right. Song is a powerful song. That's right. Come on. You know? Yep. It's the same with hymns. Yes. You know, like because he lives absolutely would never get tired of that, that never, that never gets old, right? Yep, yep, yep. It's powerful. Right? Totally, man. So, yeah. I love it. Add some hymns into your set too. Magic leaders, come on. That's right, that's right. Yes, please do that. Yes, yes. Well guys, um, thank y'all for being a part of this episode. Michael Walter, thank you for being on and agreeing. Yeah, thanks for having me with me. I know your schedule's crazy man with like. Re recording going on tour. Really, it's the tour life Yeah. That you're living. Uh, but thanks for sharing your experience of how you learned the piano as a child. You said you're playing on a Casio, you're sitting on that, that, uh, organ, sitting on a organ. Yep. Um, just getting in that environment. So guys, I hope this is encouraging to y'all learn the national number system. Yes. Getting in the room with other great players. Yes. Um, I hope y'all are encouraged for Easter coming up and stay tuned for some more great episodes. But again, Michael, thanks for being on the day, man. Thanks for having me, man. ​