Felt Pianos, AI Demos, & Sound Design Convo with Josh Dunn

Join us as we sit down with producer, songwriter, and worship pastor Josh Dunn for an inspiring conversation on the Worship Keys Podcast. Josh shares the story behind his vintage rescued Baldwin upright piano, his sound design secrets for getting that raw authentic tone, and an honest take on AI and Suno in worship music today. We talk creativity, authenticity, and what it means to stay true to your sound in 2026. Don't miss his thoughts on why true creativity can't be replaced by AI. Next episode, Josh breaks down what it really costs to produce a great demo from start to finish.

Aerospace Audio
Josh Dunn

Transcript

0:00

Welcome back to the Worship Keys Podcast. My name's Carson Bruce. If you've been with us for a little bit, you know that we've been talking about Aerospace Audio. Thank you to Aerospace Audio for being a sponsor. They create high quality atmospheric drone pads for worship services, for songwriting sessions. Uh, really incredible. They have Aero Pads app, or they have a physical drone analog pedal that you guys can check out. But today, guys, please help me welcome Josh Dunn to the Worship Keys Podcast. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Bro- Great to be here ... thank you for welcoming me into your beautiful studio. Thank you. Yeah. If you're watching on YouTube, you guys can see, um, the beautiful upright piano behind you, Josh, and we're gonna be talking about your upright piano. We're gonna be talking about sound design today, a little bit about AI, really about how to be authentic in creating a demo or a full-fledged production. But I just gotta say, man, it's great to meet you. The reason why I got connected with you, man, is thanks to Jenna and Zoë. Yeah, so Jenna, Zoë, and I, were part of the same class at Belmont University, actually. Okay. Although we weren't the closest of friends there. I think we actually shared a stage once together where we were... I was playing guitar, and they were singing in the same performance that we did. Yeah. And that was the first time I met them. We shared maybe a few words. And then several years later, as I'm now doing music as a full-time job, I got reconnected with them because they are such incredible writers and artists. Yeah. They were my first client back in 2023 when I started doing this full time. I brought them in. We were writing together. You know, I produced some stuff for them, the rest is history. They, they've, uh- Yeah ... they've been crushing it, and, and I love working with them, so. Dude, that is awesome. Yeah. Well, guys, Josh, he's a songwriter. He's a producer. He's an engineer. He's a worship pastor out of a church in Murfreesboro. Your dad's the pastor, right? That's right. Yeah. Incredible. What's- Family business ... what's the name of the family business? Yeah. What's the name of the church? It's called People of Hope Church. People of Hope Church. Yeah, yeah. Man, awesome. Well, today we're gonna be talking about sound design. One thing that really got my attention was on Jenna and Zoë's song What I Didn't Know Then. Love that song. Oh my goodness, like, so good. Yeah, it's amazing. I can never listen to it enough. There's different versions out now. There's a acoustic version, and there's a full band version, more like a radio version out, which both versions are incredible. And we've had Jenna and Zoë on a past episode if you guys wanna check that out. Shout out to their friend, Brenna, who played the fiddle- Mm-hmm with that song, which that's honestly my favorite version of the song, just so... Just live in the moment. I know it wasn't super, like, polished, but it was absolutely beautiful. It touched my heart. That song, no matter what season you're in, no matter how old you are, where you are, it's gonna, it's gonna leave an impact on you. Yeah. And Josh, you produced the acoustic version- I did ... of that song. Tell me about that journey producing that for 'em. Originally, that song had blown up for them, just the recording of rehearsal- Oh, yeah ... for a show. Oh, yeah. And so there was a lot of authenticity in that original recording. There was a lot of, in a good way, some roughness to it. It wasn't the highest fidelity, it wasn't the most polished, but it was authentic and it resonated with people. It went crazy. Yeah. People were, were going nuts over that song. And so we wanted to capture that same vibe and energy, just in a slightly more polished format. Zoë actually brought her keys in, and we plugged them into the system, and she played as-- exactly how she did in rehearsal. Yeah. And then I duplicated some of the same guitar sounds that were from that rehearsal. Yeah. And then from there, originally, they were just gonna use that to post around on social media. And- Sure ... I just decided for fun, because it's-- it is an amazing song. I was not one of the writers on that song, but- Yeah .. It was resonating with me. Right. And I thought, we can just nudge, because I know they wanted- Mm to stick to how it was on social media, but I, I felt really excited about it and interested in it. So I added bass, ' , like my real bass guitar. I redid some of the key sections with a little bit more nuance and then- Right, right ... Added just little texture swells from some symbols and some very subtle drum hits. I don't think- Yeah ... people would tell you that there's drums in that song, but there are drum hits here and there. Yeah, yeah. Kick drum and toms just accenting, you know, movements and stuff. Sure. And I sent it to them and I said, "Hey, this is not exactly what you asked for, but this is-- I had a lot of fun making this, and I feel like it hits." Right. And they text me back immediately and were like, "This is amazing." Mm. And so that's kinda how that version came about. And They had been working on this kinda big, larger than life radio version of the song. Sure. But they thought, this resonates with us so much, we wanted to put this out. And so- Mm ... we did. Incredible, man. Well, I wanna talk about your upright piano because- Yeah ... I saw a video online and, come to find out, you know, there's a lot to be said about this upright piano behind you. And I think this is encouraging to my viewers, is, while there are great VSTs and plug-ins like Keyscape, Omnisphere, the list goes on and on of, like, incredible key beds. Arturia KeyLab has some really great- Oh, yeah ... stuff. But-- And they're based on real piano samples, which is great. Uh, and we, we've been getting deep into the piano sampling- Mm-hmm ... lately on the podcast, uh, which is fun for me. I love to geek out on that. And you're an audio guy, you understand- Yep you know, sampling and that whole process. But just being able to mic a real piano and get the nuance of a real piano, talk about why you guys chose to just record on your upright. And tell us what-- where is this upright from? What's the story behind this upright? Yeah. So I've been chasing a real piano for years and years now. Yeah. Um, a good friend of mine has a Yamaha U3- Okay ... upright piano. Yeah, dude, that's great. That is-- And he had a-- added a felt bar to it. Oh, yeah. And every time I go there and I play that piano, it just captures me. Yeah, yeah. And I can't get away from just sitting there and playing. Yeah. Even the most basic sound, it just feels so amazing to have it, like- Mm making sound all around you. Right, right, right. So I've known for a long time that I wanted something like that. It's a little cost prohibitive to get s- that piano like that. It's- True ... really expensive. Right, right. Um, and so, you know, I just started doing research around, and a lot of people, especially in Nashville, will tell you, "Just check Facebook Marketplace. Just check here and there. You'll find a free piano or a very cheap piano that will sound amazing." And someone had put me onto, um- I would call it a company. It's a guy in Nashville who calls himself the Nashville Piano Rescue. Okay. And, um, basically he goes around and collects these free pianos, these pianos that are gonna get thrown away from around town, and he is a longtime piano technician, tuner, mover, repair guy. And so he will bring them back to a warehouse, fix them up, give them a little bit new life, and then list them for sale on his website. Awesome. And so you're paying a little bit more than free, you know, for a, for a piano. However, somebody has rescued- I love that ... a free piano and, you know, brought it back to life a little bit. And so- That's awesome ... I got in touch with him because he had a few listed on the website and it's very kind of go with the flow. Whatever he finds is listed, and he- Yeah ... kind of puts a price on it based on what he does to it, and it's changing all the time. And so- Yeah ... I said, "I'm looking for something like this. I wanted something similar to this size for this room." Right. And he said, "Come to the warehouse and see what we got." So I showed up and there were things there that weren't even listed on the website. There were probably 15, 20 pianos, upright pianos in there. Wow. And he said, "Just go around, play whatever you want, and whatever one speaks to you, grab it." And so I spent maybe 45 minutes in this warehouse, and it was January, and it was not like a heated warehouse. And so- Right ... it's maybe like 25 degrees inside, and the pianos were cold and I was cold. And they were kind of warping in and out of tune. But- Right ... um, I sat in front of several pianos and played them. And this one, it was a good combination of like the vibe I wanted, if, if, if I'm being honest, like it looked really cool. Sure, sure. And, um- And it kinda had the most, you know, stable keybed. It still had all of its functioning parts. It was probably the most restored. The other option that he had was kind of an older Yamaha, like, practice piano- Right that was similar size to this, but it was, it was like an old, ugly wood grain and maybe just wasn't gonna be in the best shape, so- Yeah, yeah ... I chose this one and paid him for it, and he, he moved it himself in here and got it spruced up, and then left it. And, you know, since... I, I've been going on it since then, so. This is a Baldwin. Okay. Um- The Baldwin is super solid. And at, at the time I got it, I looked up the serial number to see if I could find the exact date, but it's, it was giving me a range, and I think it was somewhere in the late '50s, early '60s that it was made. Oh, okay, okay. So it's, it's old, and I'm pretty sure it's got the original strings and hammers and everything. Mm. We've replaced one or two hammers since I got it, but- Okay ... most of it is original. And, you know, it's not quite as polished as, like, my friend's Yamaha U3, however, it has character and texture and- Yes noise that you can only get from a piano that's, you know, 60 years old. Totally. And, uh, I love it. Totally, man. Well, the thing that really got my attention was a video of, uh, Zoë was playing her Nord- Mm-hmm ... and I could hear the key off and the noise a little bit. Yep. And I said... I was like, "This is not a normal Nord sample." Although, we do have a Nord Stage 4 episode just some- Mm-hmm ... from weeks back with Marcus Wiles. We did a deep dive into the Nord. And the cathedral reverb on the Nord Stage 4 versus the 3 is incredible. Mm. It's almost like emulating a big sky pedal. Okay. You know? Yeah. Like, you'd run keyboards through big sky pedals for years, but now that this Nord Stage 4 has kind of emulated that big sky where you don't really need a big sky pedal anymore- Mm to get that big, like, cathedral-type, ambient reverb, which you go for a lot in worship. But the problem is, and I want you to talk about this- Yeah ... 'cause you're a producer. You're producing people all the time, to a point, I think it's pretty well known, Nord Stage 3, 4, 2, all them- Nord Stage keyboards are some of the best sampled keyboards in the market, especially playing live. Mm-hmm. It's sturdy, all the midi capabilities, the CC knobs, all the things that you can do is just insane, and especially hybrid rigs. But I want you to talk about the, the importance of staying authentic to your sound, and not just copying what someone has done on the Nord. 'Cause it's h- comes a point where it's like, if that's the standard, or the Yamaha Motif or whatever new keyboard comes out between Korg and Yamaha- Yep ... And Nord. Uh, but instead of chasing that, and Roland too, there's just so many great brands. But instead of that, y'all chose to go with this upright from the '50s or '60s. Yep. Why did you choose to do that, and why is that important for others to really embrace that as well? The first thing I'll say, I think some of it comes down to your use case. Right, right, right. And, and so for me, most of the work that I do is in a room, and th- no one's hearing this live. It's, it's gonna come out later. Sure, yeah. So I have a lot of opportunity to edit, to retrack, to treat things, you know, in post. Totally. Whereas, you know, for like a Sunday morning, the Nord is, is gonna be the best option you have. I mean, I mean- Right, right, right ... I'm a Keyscape guy. Uh, so I'm, I'm using MainStage and- Sure just using a controller personally, but- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... um, that's because I'm a studio guy who has VST plugins- Totally ... rather than a huge live rig. Totally. As far as for, for the Jenna and Zoë video, why we went with this, you know, to be honest, we, we started off with Zoë bringing in her piano, the Nord, and we were just gonna plug it in because, again, that's just recreating what they would do live in front of you. Totally. And I said That's absolutely doable, for sure. Yeah. It's gonna sound great. We've already shown with the, what I didn't know then, that it can sound amazing. Totally. I was like, "This is here, and I can make it sound really, really good." Yeah. And I think that the, as you can tell, you picked up on it, it's like those little inconsistencies of hammer noise, the keys coming up and down, the pedal noise- Yeah And then all of those things reflecting off of the harp as it's resonating when the sustain pedal's down- ... create so much texture and atmosphere that I think a lot of people are chasing and they don't even understand how to get to those things. Yes. And then i- I've been the same person. Before I had this piano, I would hear records like that and I would be like, "I want that so bad." Yeah. And I would try to add reverbs, and I would use the Keyscape felted piano, and it just doesn't work, as you've probably tried. And then the second you sit in front of this and you push the sustain pedal down and you hear how much resonance comes off of it, you know. It's like, that's just it. Mm. You can't get that without throwing a mic in front of it. Totally. And there are some great recreations of it, but having it react to the exact movements that you're doing in real time is just gonna add a layer of, I would say polish, but it's like, not polish. Yeah, yeah. It's like noise. Absolutely. Um, but it, it creates something that's just, I don't know, it's really special. I love it. And I love it. And, and it sounds incredible. I want people to, before we go any further, I want people to hear your piano right now. I want you just to play it a little bit just so that we can get a context of everything. Absolutely. So let's do that real quick, guys, and we'll be right back. I guys enjoyed that because it's such a beautiful piano. Love the way it looks, love the way it sounds. And by the way, I want you to talk about this a little bit too, Josh, is your clamps on the sides. I don't know if you know the brand name or anything, but those clamps are pretty cool. Yeah, they are cool. I don't know the brand name. Okay. They were a quick solution to a practical problem of mic stands with three legs taking up a massive amount of space in this room. Very nice. And I wanted to have the piano mic'd at all times- Okay because people are in here writing, you know, five days a week, sometimes twice a day. Totally. And there is something special about if we find something that we're in love with playing on that piano, to just be able to press a button, put on headphones, and it's getting recorded straight in. I love it. So, that was a really big priority for me. However- Micing it up all the time was just a, a space problem. Yeah, yeah. And so, um, yeah, I didn't buy those. I don't know what the brand is. I can't tell you. I'm sorry. No, you're good. Uh, we could probably Google clamp mics, you know- Yes ... something like that- Yes, yes ... and find them. But they've been a lifesaver in terms of s- freeing up space- Totally allowing me to keep those just plugged into the system at all times so I can just press record- Man ... I'm ready to go on piano. If you're on YouTube, uh, I know if you're listening on Apple, Spotify, thanks for being a part, but if you have a YouTube account, and you use something like this, like a clamp, like Josh has here, uh, let us know in the comments, what do you use? I brought some, I think they're called Triad Orbit or just Orbit, uh, these ... Th- that's the brand name, but you clamp them onto the upright as well. Hm. Kinda similar to this. Yeah. But if you guys have a good brand that you guys use on your uprights or baby grand, grand piano to clamp it instead of using a boom stand, let us know in the comments, 'cause we want other people to know as well. And I think when we had the discussion about authenticity, a lot of times the convenience does win. Mm-hmm. And I wanna talk about the idea of convenience in ... I mean, it's 2026. I don't know when you're watching this episode. Maybe it's 2027 or '28 by now, and there's probably even more technology and, and resources out there. But in the world of AI, right? Mm-hmm. I wa- I wanna get, kinda move into AI talk a little bit. It's so important to stay authentic because there's so many samples in keyboard stuff, like, everyone's using that same Nord sample, the same Keyscape thing, the same O- Omnisphere thing. So to be able to tweak it, especially in the studio, a lot of times it comes down to convenience, and it's not very convenient sometimes to mic up a piano. And to get it to sound right and good in a room, um, it takes a lot of know-how, a lot of skill and talent, to be able to do this right. So talk about how has AI affected what you do- Hm ... as a songwriter, producer in 2026? Yeah. Uh, you know, it's really interesting. This is something that I discuss a lot with a lot of my peers and the people who do this for a living- Right because no one has a clear answer on it yet. I am overall a fan of AI in the sense that it will allow people to have access to tools and things that they otherwise would never have been able to get to. I personally don't use AI for any of my work. And this is a, this is an interesting topic because I think the reason people come to me is for the creative input that I give to their song. I think maybe there's a world someday where people could get paid to prompt AI to make songs and call themselves a producer. Mm. I don't have an opinion on that yet, but that's not who I am personally. Absolutely. It's so multifaceted as a topic. Mm. Um, because I produce songs for people. A lot of what I do is also writing songs. And at the professional level in Nashville, there's an expectation of a demo every time we write a song. And so it is so much faster and more convenient to take acoustic vocal work tape on your iPhone and plug that into Suno and have it spit out something that is polished enough that someone can get the idea, of what the final song might sound like. Totally. Totally. This is something that I talk about a lot with writers and producers and artists especially, is there's an ability that I think some people have innately or you develop over time in the industry to hear a song and to understand where it could go in spite of whatever state it's in. Right. So if someone sits in front of me and plays a song on the acoustic guitar, I think a lot of people understandably only hear that version of it, and they're like, "Ah, I wish it was bigger. I wish it had something else going on." Mm. However, most of what I spend my time doing is taking those things and transforming them into something that can go on the radio. Yeah. And so my brain the wheels start spinning and I hear, "Oh, we would do this, and there's a drum groove here, and there's guitars here," and all this stuff. And so it's easy to take for granted sometimes that not everyone hears that. And so even if a song is feeling really great as we're writing it in the room, I don't think that... Uh, sorry. Let me say it this way. Yeah. People won't always understand where it could go and the potential that it has. Mm-hmm. And so on some level, Suno's really helpful for writers to get to that place quickly and effectively. Sure. And in a vacuum, go for it. I want people who are working with me as a writer or producer to say, "I'm gonna wait an extra 48 hours maybe to let Josh do that instead of Suno doing it, because what we're gonna get from that is way more creatively interesting and fulfilling." Yeah. Hopefully. You know? That's the thing we're chasing. Suno's really good- Yeah ... at what it does. It's not good at some things, too, you know, for sure. But, um, it can be really helpful. And, and I think- You know, for me, the, the stance that I've taken is that, that transformative creativity is why I'm in the room a lot of the times. Yeah. You know, I love lyrics, I love melody, I love adding chord changes, things like that, but taking the song from acoustic vocal to you could never have imagined all these extra layers and things. Yeah. I think that's what I am supposed to do. And so, I want to do that for people instead of them having AI do it. There are still some times where, you know, if we take-- if I take too long to get the demo done, somebody will just Suno it, and then it's like, well, no one can unhear that now, you know, right? Like- Mm-hmm ... those ideas are now embedded in that song for you. And so- Right ... you probably won't like what I do as much because you've heard the perfected version of it. Totally, man. And maybe that's a good segue into the other I wouldn't call it a battle, but the other thing that we're dealing with right now in the industry is perfection. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because Suno is- Talk about that, bro ... perfect every time, you know. Piano is a factor, but maybe guitar is maybe even more noticeable. Yes. If you listen to a Suno guitar line, the electrics, the acoustics, they are perfect. Mm-hmm. It would t- cost so much money for me to recreate that in a very expensive studio, multiple mics, insane outboard gear. Mm-hmm. It's possible, but it's costly and it's time, you know. Totally. It's, it takes a lot of time. And so on some level it's cool. However, I think people are now starting to gravitate toward imperfection- Yes ... as a counterbalance to that because they're saying, you know, if something sounds perfect, you might assume that it was made with shortcuts- Right ... or made, you know, with AI. And so- Yeah you know, that's maybe part of why people like having the upright piano with its inconsistencies, its imperfections. Yeah. And there's a line to be drawn. You know, w- there's a... And it's, I think it's maybe a feel thing. It's something that I trust myself to, to watch for in a song. It's like, how far away from the pocket can we let the drums get? Right, right. You know? And like, we don't wanna go too far. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, we, and the drummers that I'm hiring don't want me to nudge their drums off the grid either, you know. Oh. 'Cause they don't wanna sound bad. But- Of course ... there's some level of subconsciously letting you know that a human made that sound- Totally that I think actually contributes a lot more to the experience of a song than anyone realizes. Yes. And so I wouldn't expect the average listener to listen to a song and know like, "Oh, this is why I like this more than that." And maybe some people would prefer the Suno version, the perfected version, and that's okay. But for me and my craft, what I'm chasing right now is how can we inject humanity and creativity into it- Right ... in a way that is creatively fulfilling for us as the people who are making it- Yes ... but also something that people wanna listen to and not just once, but listen to it over and over and over again. You know. Come on, man. So. Yeah, it, it's an interesting topic, and I feel like you need to, we need to understand how things are gonna be live. Like with Jenna and Zoë- Yep ... they want that authentic feeling of, hey, as if we're leading this or playing this live at a g- at a gig or a worship gathering- Mm-hmm conference, whatever it is. We wanna kinda duplicate that because that's authentically who we are as an artist, as a brand. That's what we're doing. And you lead a church. Talk about the authenticity of being in a room with people, 'cause a lot of times we're so isolated these days- Yeah with technology, so we're scrolling on Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, and whatever, and we're coming across whatever, and we're kinda seeing whatever people are saying, and we're kind of these online communities. But what... There's something to be said about a live room- Mm-hmm ... and a live experience. And on the topic of AI, there are producers receiving demo tracks, perfect demo tracks from Suno, and they're even putting in their vocals a lot of times to perfect it, and then AI is emulating their vocals even to the point where it's sounding a little better than even their own. Right. But it's like the, it's like their voice, but it's a different iteration. Yeah. And where you don't have to spend all the time to use Melodyne and work it to make it be what it is. It just is already perfect. Because you are a worship pastor- Yeah ... talk about the importance of being authentically you so that when you go play live- Mm-hmm or when you're in a worship service- Mm-hmm ... it feels authentic. That's a great open-ended question that- ... I'll try to, I'll try to tackle- It's not really specific, is it? ... piece by piece. No, no, no, it's good. I, I'm, I'm, my brain's going a million different directions. 'Cause you're a church, you're a church guy, man. Your, your dad's a pastor. Yes. You've been on staff at different churches. You're from Texas originally. Shout out to all the Texas people. Yeah, Texas. Uh- Waco, Texas ... like Chris Tomlin's, uh, keys player, Matt Gilder, is from, from Texas. Yep. And he came on the pod, so there's been some Texas people on the podcast, I think really deeply about these things a lot, and I probably think more deeply about it than I expect anyone else to, to be fair. So I, I would say everything I'm about to say- Come on ... I wouldn't hold every worship pastor in America to. I wouldn't expect them to feel this way. But this is, these are the convictions that I live by. I think the first thing I wanna clarify is that God can move through Suno. Like, if we just sat on a Sunday morning and played a Suno version of a song through the speakers, God is far more powerful than a limitation that would be put on something that wasn't made by a human, right? Right. Right. So He will and can use any of those things to reach people and to change hearts and lives. So that's the baseline, right? I think you theologically, you have to start there. Yeah. Beyond that, I think we start getting into personal convictions for creativity, for authenticity, and I do believe that people will resonate with those things the more we're able to keep them in a church gathering. Totally. And so, you know, I am not anti-multitracks on a Sunday morning. I will say though, however, we don't use multitracks in my church currently. Okay, okay. And the reason for that is because if I'm gonna do multitracks, I will be producing them personally. Okay. I will be playing those parts based on our vision and direction for the Sunday morning. Totally. And we will be meticulously using them to elevate what we're doing instead of putting up guardrails for ourselves, for lack of a better term. Totally. No shade on anyone who wants to buy multitracks from other artists. That's just where my conviction is. You know, creatively, I want to be fully in control of that, and I have the capacity to do it. I have gear to do it. I have the knowledge that it won't take me as long as it might take somebody else, and- Right . So that's what I would say about that. And I think Suno falls into that same category, if you wanna talk about AI. It's like you could absolutely use Suno to make those custom tracks for yourself on a Sunday morning. Totally. However, my personal conviction is that I want my creativity to be injected into it. I want- Yes I want it to come back to the intention of what we're planning in our meetings as we talk about our vision for Sunday. You know, a lot of what we talk about is where do we want to direct people's hearts- Yeah with each thing that we're doing on a Sunday morning. Suno could absolutely, you know, be used to direct someone's heart on a Sunday morning. Sure. No, no question. You know, that's, God is far bigger than that. Like, why would we put him in a box? However, I think as someone who is passionate about m- creating music, making music, I, I'm just never gonna use it for that. There you go. And I'm gonna, you know, do it ourselves, so. Totally, man. You know, honestly, the thing that's keeping me from doing multitracks right now is that I'm very, very part-time at my church currently. Okay. And so if m- I had more office hours during the week, then I would for sure be creating tracks for us every weekend. Mm-hmm. And probably reusing some of those tracks from time to time, but at least starting with, you know, a baseline that we made ourselves. Yeah. There would be... That's, that's a good point. No, I love those thoughts. A- and you probably got a lot more thoughts that you, if we had more time, you could probably share. I could talk about, yeah, all this for- But, you know, a lot of the argument, uh, with Suno is that you're not being creative, but some people, and there will be a day too where, people are still able to be creative even alongside Suno, using Suno as a tool. Like, hey, where they authentically believe they are being creative because they created 30 different versions Right, right of song through Suno, and they put in 30 hours, just like you would put 30 hours in a, in maybe a de- like a really good demo or something. They put 30 hours just on iterations of that demo- Sure ... to where they do feel like creatively... So it's a weird, it's a weird thing. It feels weird. It's new. It's been trending, and now it's kind of becoming a norm. Yeah. I don't know what... I mean, in 2016 this would've looked crazy. Now in 2026, to be where we are, and then I don't know where it's gonna be in 2036. Yeah. And is this just the norm? I feel like with, even with multitracks, and shout-out to Loop Community, that also makes, uh, tracks available for churches. Yeah. There's community producers that put stuff on. Multitracks is, has the masters for everything. Mm-hmm. Uh, but Loop Community has, where they, they give, um, opportunities to independent producers to upload songs, and you can get them at a cheaper rate than the master files, just by the way. Uh, but the, you know, those companies, I feel like it, it's going to be, we're gonna be pushing the limits- Mm Coming into 2027, '28, '29, to where I do feel like, I don't know what your opinion on this j- is, Josh, but I feel like with multitracks.com and loopcommunity.com, eventually their tools and their apps are going to be in a way to where you have this version, uh, that Bethel did or Elevation did, but if, if all of a sudden you wanna flip it and make it this style- Mm like, literally there's gonna be an AI input where you can s- flip it in the moment- Yeah . In your midweek rehearsal or Sunday morning rehearsal, you wanna flip it, you prompt it, and it's gotten so good at the iterations of the prompts and it knows your style so much. Yeah. "Oh, I know Josh likes doing this- Mm on a Sunday," so that AI is going to know you. It sounds scary, sounds robotic, but then your tracks are gonna kinda... I- it's almost like it follows you. Like, we- Yeah ... it, the big thing with being authentic in your tracks is that, and we had Evan with Belonging co um, talk about this. How do we do tracks in spontaneous worship, right? Mm-hmm. And it's like, well, we use Touch OSC, and we control Ableton with this, and then if we wanna loop this, we can. Then if we get off click, it's fine, and then I can press this on the next half beat, and it'll, it, boom, we're back in. And it's like, wow, this is incredible. But then there's gonna be a day where you might not even have to manually do that. AI can just jump in- Yeah ... and follow you. So it's like, I think it's, if the technology and the musicians and everyone can follow the leader, that's really the heart of it. Yeah. And then if your computer can follow you, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on that, man, that wild to think about? Sure. I, I, I think, you know, and that, that does excite me. You know, I, I- Yeah ... don't wanna come across as somebody who's, like, against all this, and I, I- Yeah ... hope I made it clear, like, I want people to use whatever tools they feel like equip them to do ministry the best. Sure, sure. So it's a, it's all very messy, and this is mostly personal conviction that I'm speaking from. Yeah. But I, I think where I've landed is the older I'm getting, the more I'm making music professionally for a living when we think about a Sunday morning experience, I feel better about Making the best thing we can with our own hands. Mm-hmm. Rather than- Yes ... playing 40 tracks through the speakers and me standing up there just with a guitar, and it'll sound great. Absolutely. But the experience, I think, lacks some authenticity, even though we're using the tools to put forward a better musical experience for people. Yeah. And so I think that's something we always need to hold in tension, is the quality of the musical experience compared to the authenticity and the worshipfulness of the moment. Yes. And I think people can absolutely lead from that place of, like, tracks and a single person, and make it worshipful and do it. Mm-hmm. And I'm incredibly spoiled, because we hire in a band every weekend that is made up entirely of professional musicians- Right ... who there's no charts, there's no thing. We tell them the key and the song, and we go. That's incredible. And it's amazing. And then, so, so- I want you to reiterate that , you don't provide charts for them? We don't provide charts. We tell them the name of the song and the key, and oftentimes the key doesn't always stick either. Okay, cool. I love this. And we show up on Sunday morning, and everyone, a- again, similar to how a gig would go around town. Yeah. You're just expected to show up and know what you're doing. Exactly, okay. And, and- People know that ... and so it's fun. It's absolutely a privilege. I've served in a lot of churches where that's not the case, and we, we kinda have to do a lot more prep and resource, you know, for people. Totally. Um, so I'm really spoiled in that what we can make with our own two hands on a Sunday morning is kind of insane to me. Right. Right, right, right, right. And, and, you know, we're really proud of the music culture that we've developed at our church. Who am I to say that, uh, some other churches that don't have those same resources shouldn't utilize those tools? Right. I think I would just encourage people to be thoughtful about it. Yeah. And that, uh, re- go back to that tension that you're holding between musical excellence and worshipful experience. Right. And to be honest, you know, if... The moment you start prioritizing musical experience, you've lost the- Mm-hmm ... you've lost the reason for it. Yes. And you've lost the... And you're never gonna be as effective as you could be. Come on. And so- That's good ... it, it, you should always be holding it in balance. I think that's probably the, the last word I'll say on it, but. That's great. So you're saying you can still use multitracks- Yeah ... and it be authentic. You can still use AI and still be authentic. 'cause there was a time, 10, 15, 20 years ago, people started demonizing just the, just a metronome. Just literally the click track in your ears. Mm-hmm. Sure, sure. Uh, oh my gosh, if you use a click track, you're not being authentic. Yeah. And now it's a whole new level of AI now. Yeah. You know, how much AI can we use with, without it being... You have preachers using AI to write their sermons, and it's like, oh my goodness. And it's like this tension of... From the musical st- standpoint, my favorite worship services are the ones that go off the rails a little bit. Mm-hmm. And but there's also a fine line of that. You can go into the deep end of, well, does every single worship service have to be spontaneous? No. It doesn't have to always be spontaneous, and you loop this extra random word or phrase forever- Yeah ... for it to be a great worship service. We can idolize that, too. Sure. We can idolize that- 100% ... Mysterious flow, spontaneous vibe and style to be more of this is who God is in, in the moment. We could, we could idolize that. On the other hand, you know, if we always just do the thing, we might as well just play, we might as well just play the recording- Yeah ... on the speakers. Yeah. So I'm, I alwa- I'm on the si- I don't know what your perspective, but I think I'm always on the side of, like, if things got off a little bit and we just kinda wave off the band, "Hey guys. Hey, let's just sing that bridge one more time, because, you know, this week I'm feeling this, and, and this, this is what happened in our church body," I think that's when authenticity really happens. Yeah. And you might see a breakthrough moment. Again, not that it's about spontaneous and chills on the back, you know. Right. And, and someone crying. But in a lot of those authentic moments, that's when the tangible presence, I feel like, moves in a lot, and when we're being sensitive to the Holy Spirit- Mm-hmm ... in the moment. An AI and computer's not gonna be able to do that, and your, obviously your click track is just a tool to be following you as you are following the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Sure. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think I agree with you on a lot of that, and I think, again, that's why I say I, I wanna e- encourage people to be thoughtful and have intention- Yeah ... behind it, because it's not gonna be the same for every situation, right? I am very far from the normal, you know, typical worship pastor situation. Yeah, yeah. Um, and I recognize that, right? But I think, and, and this is something that I've had some interns and people over the years that I've tried to really emphasize this point. It's like you can be really intentional on Monday for Sunday, right? Mm-hmm, yeah. Like, the things... It's not lesser because we planned a double bridge special, you know- Yeah. ... mashup moment on Monday, rather than doing it live in the moment on Sunday. Right. Right. And I think there's this maybe potentially immature thought that it's better when it was happening spontaneously. However, I think prayerful planning and thoughtfulness can happen on Monday that- Yeah would s- you know, accomplish that same result on Sunday, and y- there's room for both, right? Totally. Like, we wanna plan those cool moments, and also leave room for those th- things to happen. And so, you know, maybe the right way to think about it is what amount of those tool-assisting things can you use while maintaining that intentionality and authenticity? That's good. And for me, I'm in a fortunate, blessed position where I can kinda trust my guys to just go wherever I wanna go. Mm. And I don't think twice about hand-holding, you know. We just, I just start singing something, and they'll pick up. That's good. And it's not always perfect, but, it's more often than not pretty close to perfect. That's amazing. Yeah. I feel like I'm just rambling on about this at this point. No, I love it. But, uh- I love it. Yeah. That's great. Talk about, 'cause I always like to talk about this with people who are not listening, that are not in Nashville, how often are you utilizing the Nashville Number System? How important is that j- not just in your job producing, but also on a church platform- Yeah ... on Sundays? Yeah. I was set up for success really early on in that the worship pastor who really poured into me a lot in Texas taught me the Nashville Number System way back then, and we used it- How old were you when you learned it? Probably, like, late middle school, early high school. So, like- Amazing. Great ... 14. Great. And that became our language for rehearsals for anything. It's like, "We're on the one. Now we're on the four," whatever. Yeah. And so coming to Nashville, it was sort of a second language that I already knew and understood. Right. And so that has continued for us, of course, we're just talking in numbers pretty much. I don't know the last time I've called out a nu- a letter chord, to be honest, to somebody- ... in any m- even in writing rooms or, you know- Yeah ... uh, studio sessions and stuff. It's like we, it's ubiquitous, you know? Yeah. I think it is helpful in a lot of ways. However, I've been in churches where the volunteers didn't know that system, and so we were a lot more focused on sticking to our key- Yeah ... and providing charts that were helpful for people and, and not rocking the boat too much beyond what they could follow along with, you know? Right. I think that's wise Leadership is recognizing the capacity of the people that you're asking to follow you up there- Yes ... And provide them with the resources that they need to follow along with you comfortably. Totally. So again, not to hit it too hard, but the people that I am asking to follow along with me on Sundays are just better than me in most situations. That's awesome. And so they don't, they're not worried about, you know, if I say during rehearsal or during a soundcheck, like, "Let's throw in like a flat five right here," and they'll just all remember and do it. Amazing. And we'll push hits, we'll do whatever. And so it's a lot of fun, really creatively fulfilling, but- That's amazing. Um, yeah. Incredible. All people need to know that, and I, I do feel like that is the make or break. Like how can we... If there's one thing that you can do as a worship leader, if you're listening, musician, MD, whatever, if there's one thing that you can do to level up your whole band, it's learning the national number system is where... Because if you don't know it, you need more rehearsal time, you need more either physical printouts or if you're doing v- uh, virtual charts on your iPad- Mm-hmm ... you need to, you need to coordinate all that. You need to pay for more software to be able to do that on Planning Center and all these other apps and things that you have to do. There's just more prep work and more time. Where, uh, if you actually do the harder thing to actually learn the whole system, you can do it. But I do, I do think it falls under the worship leader more than anyone- Mm-hmm is if they're not already using it, of course you can't expect everyone else to. So it starts with that worship leader- Yeah ... if they, you know, c- can go there or not. So that's good. And to be able to be authentic, you don't wanna just try to dive into that without knowing it or expecting your band to do that, so. 100%. That's a good thing. But authenticity. So yes, a lot of good stuff you said, man. I, I appreciate your heart, and I hope you guys enjoyed hearing the upright today. I definitely loved... I love Baldwin, man. I love Baldwin and Yamaha- Mm-hmm ... and Kawai, Steinway & Sons, just great brands, but Baldwin is very good brand. And actually my piano back at home is like a 1964- Oh, wow ... uh, Baldwin Acrosonic. Now, I need to put some more felt stuff on it I love felting it Mm-hmm And I have sampled it with the felt, but I need to just keep it like you do, just keep it felted- Yeah ... all the way, uh, you know. I will say a quick point on that. Yeah. You know, in my head, when I first got this, it was like felt, that is the thing. So I bought a bunch of felt- Okay ... put it on there, and it was so dead that I didn't like it. Oh. And so I've experimented with six or maybe like nine different materials at this point. No, it's probably less than that. It's probably like five materials. Okay. Everything from like washcloths that I had just around the house- to like these are tea towels that I just ordered off Amazon. Okay. Really inexpensive, whatever the top result was, like basic same color tea towels and put them out there, and it's just the right amount of fabric that's gonna dampen without- That's good ... losing the percussive kinda attack of the piano. And so- That's amazing ... uh, it may vary depending on your piano, but like- Are you saying tea towels? Yeah, T-E-A. T-E-A. Tea towels, yeah- Okay ... which is usually like a kitchen item that you might throw over your oven door or something. Are they a little over a foot? And w- like wide so that it gets each section of the piano? Yes. Or did you cut them? Not on purpose. You didn't cut them, right? No, I didn't. That's just how they came, and I- That's cool ... they happened to line up, the three of them. That's the perfect length, I mean- Yeah ... it's the- There's a little overlap here and there, and- Okay ... in fact, if there's a song that I know, uh, the, one of the keys is gonna be striking a lot on where they overlap, I might adjust them a little bit because the overlap is double muted- Sure in a sense, That's the beauty and also the downside of a real piano is that sometimes you have to go in there and fidget with things to get them just right, but... Incredible, man. Well, we are wrapping up this episode. Josh Dunn, thank you for being on the Worship Keys Podcast. Joshua Kyle Dunn on Instagram if you wanna find him there and get connected. You do post a good bit of content of you working, and you sharing what, uh, what you're doing with Jenna and Zoë and other artists that you're working with and you're writing with. If you wanna contact him, definitely reach out on Instagram. I know you do a lot of production, a lot of demo work. Yep. And actually, next episode, guys, we're gonna be talking about how much do you need to budget for a good demo or a good production from end to end? Like, we talk about convenience. There's AI everywhere to where if you put out AI, it detects AI. Mm-hmm. So we're gonna be talking about some nuance of, like, how much does a production cost, uh, a good production from an independent artist, right? We're gonna be talking about that on the next episode with Josh here because he produces a lot of people in Nashville. If you're looking for a good demo and some good work, you need to check out this guy, and what he does. So we're gonna be talking about that. Like, how much does it cost? Like, I'm in the wedding industry. People are always getting engaged, and, like, how much does a wedding cost, you know? There's a lot of nuance there. Well, how much does it cost to actually produce a good single, whether that's country music, worship, CCM, pop, whatever it is? And it always goes back to, well, it depends. What does it depend on? We're gonna be talking about that next episode, but I hope you all enjoyed this upright piano. Um, wow. A- again, Josh, you're from Texas. I'm from Texas. You learned the Nashville number system when you were, like, 13, 14, 15 years old. You're already playing. That's a huge thing. You went to Belmont University. Mm-hmm. And you studied songwriting there or no? Uh, I had a few majors, but I actually graduated with, theology, pastoral ministry. Come on now. Yeah. Come on. Yeah, so. You just got a lot more respect from- Yeah ... from the church row with that. There you go. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing, bro. Yeah. I love that. Well, guys, stay tuned for next week's episode all about- How much does it actually cost to get your song produced? So some of you guys are in churches. You'll wanna know, how can I do this? And, you know, there's a lot of... a lot to be said for money, money, money. So people know-- wanna know how much it costs. Yes, you can pay a subscription. I don't... I've actually never used Suno. Is it a subscription thing? There's a free version, but it's limited to, like, a minute and a half. Okay. Yeah, so. Well, you can't do too much with a minute and a half stuff for reals, you know? Right, right. I guess that's what they were going for. But, you know, you pay for Suno, but, you can't really do too much authentically to put that out there, so crazy. If you do use Suno or AI, let us know in the comments how you're using it in an authentic way. But I hope you all enjoyed this episode. Subscribe if this is your first time. Glad you're here. Got a lot of episodes on a lot of different things. We're getting deeper into the sampling world, 'cause we do want to... Like, okay, the piano sample libraries that we hear in Keyscape or Nord or Arturia KeyLab or... You know, a lot of those engineers took the time to sample real pianos. So it's not that your sample library isn't authentic. You can still use Keyscape and Omnisphere in a very authentic