Carolyn Weber: Surprised by Oxford and by Jesus

SEASON 4 PREMIERE: Getting a full ride to the University of Oxford was amazing - then she discovered Jesus. Listen as author and literature professor Dr. Carolyn Weber shares her journey from agnostic to Christian and what she learned along the way - plus, how believers can be powerful witnesses on their own college campuses. 

Transcript

Katie: Hey everybody. Welcome to Oh My Word with Katie, the show where we share stories of real life Christianity - the good, the bad, and the oh my word - from believers who've been there. I'm your host, Katie Ginn, and I think these stories will leave you with some hope, some humor, and maybe some practical life hacks.

So today I am absolutely thrilled to be interviewing Dr. Carolyn Weber, author of one of my favorite books of all time, "Surprised by Oxford," her memoir of how she went from agnostic to Christian while studying at the University of Oxford in Oxford, England. This ain't Ole Miss, y'all. This is THE University of Oxford.

So I'm really excited for her to share her story today. She has a master's and a doctorate from Oxford. She served on the Oxford faculty and was the first female dean of St. Peter's College, Oxford, which was a pretty big deal. Dr. Weber currently lives with her husband and kids in the Nashville area and is a professor of literature at New College Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee.

"Surprised by Oxford" was made into a movie two years ago, which is also excellent. I've seen it. And she has also written "Sex and the City of God" and "Holy Is the Day: Living in the Gift of the Present." Dr. Weber, thank you so much for being on the show today! 

Carolyn: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Katie. It's a real delight.

Katie: Yeah. And I do want to acknowledge before we really get into your story, I know that as we record this, you did lose your mother fairly recently, a few months ago. So I really appreciate you taking the time in the midst of what has to be a hard season to do this today. How are you doing? 

Carolyn: Oh, that was so kind of you to remember that. I miss her terribly. I miss her terribly, but I'm blessed to have had an amazing mom. And you know, I think no matter when we lose our parents, no matter the age, it's hard. But she loved words, loved stories, loved the Lord later in her life. So this is a real delight to be here with you. She would enjoy it too. Thank you. 

Katie: Yeah. I thought I remembered you, either on a podcast I listened to with you, or maybe in the book itself, you talking about that she did become a Christian later on.

Carolyn: Mm-hmm. So yes, both my parents did, actually.

Katie: So awesome. So I wanna get into this story, 'cause it's kind of crazy. You get a full ride scholarship to Oxford to study romantic literature, and while you're there you become a Christian, which probably is not what you expected to happen. 

Carolyn: No, not at all. Oh my word is right. Yeah. 

Katie: You're originally from Canada. You grew up with two loving parents. You're obviously very smart, very literary. Was there any one thing that made you decide, I'm an agnostic? 

Carolyn: That's always a great question because I think in many ways, many people don't think anything, really, about our position on God or religion in general. But I had been somewhat loosely Catholic, as a child, coming from European immigrant, parents, and was very close to my grandmother. When she passed, that sort of going to church dissipated from my life, which I think it does for many others too, and didn't really think much about it.

My mom had been raised Catholic. She fell away from it eventually too, Katie, because while my parents, um, I loved them dearly, and my home was very loving in many ways, it was also very broken, and my parents ended up having a divorce later. My father was in and out of our lives. He had a mental breakdown and had lost his work.

My mom was basically a single mom raising us. So I think in many ways, as I started to think about God, perhaps even philosophically, and with studies, I really wasn't that compelled by an eternal Father when my earthly father hadn't been that dependable. I really went through some hard times with him.

But also, it seemed to me a fabrication or something not really relevant to my life. And I think also coming from a mid-sized town in Canada, I didn't really know that many Christians. I only knew of Jesus, for example, from the media or television, which isn't really often a great source. TV evangelists, that kind of thing.

So in a way it was in a category of sort of not really relevant, even perhaps caricature. I don't think a thinking person could possibly have faith or a god would be anything that could be dependable or knowable or relevant. 

Katie: And I love, I think it's in the prologue of your book, you talk about your undergrad studies in Canada, and you knew one evangelical Christian, one of your professors, and you wrote this essay about John Donne's "Batter My Heart, Three Person'd God," which is the most beautiful poem for any believer. But you as an unbeliever read it and thought, oh, this is rape imagery. This is anti-woman or something.

What would you say to that person now reading that poem? What would you say to your young self? 

Carolyn: Oh gosh, that's another great question. I think not to be so hasty in our assumptions. And to be open as we're reading things. Again, to be open to the question and the invitation that poetry poses, that God poses to our hearts.

I think at the time I was at a secular institution, it actually had roots in religious beginnings, like most actually educational institutions do. But at that point it had moved very far, from that. So my undergraduate was very, very secular. So I also didn't really have much of a Christian intellectual tradition I was bringing to that.

It is really a shame to read metaphysical poets, for example, without cracking open a Bible. How do we read some of these authors that were clearly Christians themselves or immersed in the faith and not have any sense of a biblical understanding?

But again, I was a product of my culture that way. The Bible was no longer part of mainstream education. So I think it probably made sense that I would jump to that interpretation, but particularly we'd be jumping to that interpretation, believing in myself, being self-sufficient, needing to pull myself up by my bootstraps, needing to be able to make my own way.

All those things that really our world holds in high regard and affirms and are necessary in many ways but not actually revealing our dependence on God or on any kind of concept like grace. 

Katie: Yeah, for sure. So what led you to apply for the scholarship to Oxford, and what year was that?

Carolyn: That must have been in like early '90s, I think because I did not think of applying, I didn't anticipate going to Oxford. I thought it was an amazing place. But it wasn't like a plan I had for my life or anything like that. Actually winning the Commonwealth Scholarship, it's kind of like the equivalent of a Rhodes, it's a really big scholarship in Canada, probably one of the biggest among the Commonwealth countries. So it was, my mom actually was really supportive of that.

She worked for the provost and was a secretary and she had researched some of this. And I had one professor in particular who was very, very supportive of that, had done some of the groundwork without me even knowing. So I had felt pushed along in a loving way, but didn't really think it would happen, and then received the scholarship. It was definitely a surprise. 

Katie: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So you get to Oxford, and there's so many details that I wish we had time to go into. And you wind up being part of this awesome, wonderfully open, diverse community of people, with unbelievers, believers, I think there were one or two guys who were either in seminary or they were already ministers somewhere. And so it's this great melting pot of people that you were friends with.

I remember, when you started to consider Christianity, the non-Christians teased you a little bit. But then also, you were having all these debates with yourself, and one of your non-Christian friends said something, and you said, well, you don't believe in anything, why are you trying to argue with me? And they said, well at least I'm not trying to come up with reasons not to, like you are. 

And so it's like they even encouraged you in weird ways, even though they weren't believers either. And then you converted and they came to your baptism and brought you presents. And I'm like, it seems like a foreign, like another planet to me.

So my question is, being that it was the nineties, how much of it was, this is before social media? How much of this do you think was, this is Oxford, this is just the way Oxford is? And is it possible today to have that kind of community, or have we just sailed into the abyss? 

Carolyn: Oh, that's a great question. Absolutely. Where I currently teach at New College Franklin in Franklin, Tennessee, has that community. And I think it is because it is intentionally created and fostered with a very different set of priorities and a love for God and Christ at the center, but also a great love for questioning and learning and the history of ideas.

And Oxford by no means is perfect. No place is, but it does have a wonderful attitude towards having conversation.

When I arrived I was so amazed. I was amazed at meeting these Christians from all over the world who believed the same thing and who believed in the same Christ, from all walks of life. All different races, all different - I mean, it blew me away, partly because on this Commonwealth scholarship I was with very affluent people and people from very poor countries or areas, all stripes and everything. And some of these believe the same God.

So that was really intriguing. They also seemed to have something that I wanted to have, something I couldn't quite put my finger on. I think the community at Oxford also created a space around that. I think about the community where I teach now at New College: There is purposeful fellowship, but there's also, there's genuine care. You're not anonymous. You take personal responsibility for your work. I think at Oxford there is that built into the tutorial system. You don't just hand in something on a pile and you're never spoken to. You can't hide behind the anonymity of social media or plagiarize a paper.

Your professor works closely with you. You have a genuine joy and interest and earnestness in your learning. I have that where I'm at now as well. Perhaps, I think, social media has made things more problematic in many ways in that sense. But probably the early '90s has something to do with just being more present.

And at Oxford, what's interesting is it's not a huge anonymous campus either. It's actually all these smaller colleges. It's 30 some odd colleges that are make up Oxford University.

So each college has its own library and its own pub and its own porter who knows everything that's going on in your life. And you have your own little community and then you also have a larger university. So collegiate life is really pretty intimate and pretty familiar, and you know people quite well and there's a lot of care for each other.

And my professors I found had great care for me too. Later, h aving that role myself, I realized that you have this love and responsibility and duty in that, that you feel towards these students too. It's oftentimes a lifelong relationship of great respect and admiration both ways. 

Katie: And talk a little bit more about the tutorial system. For people who haven't seen the movie or read the book and are not familiar, it's very small groups that you meet with, with your professor.

Carolyn: You're in very small groups. They might be between three and five people. And you meet with the professor. The odd time there was a larger one with Professor Wordsworth, Jonathan Wordsworth. That might be like 15 because it might be a more popular topic, but we would still meet in his rooms or his office and have tea or sherry or you know, whatever.

So it's based on the Socratic method, which is the idea of asking many questions and deductive reasoning to get to the central idea or truth of a topic. And so there's lots of conversation, dialogue, discussion. You have to have read the work. Again, be responsible for it, responsible for your ideas.

You can't hide behind anything. So it's really quite terrifying, but it's also really invigorating, and you also end up knowing the work, and the idea is really thoroughly, which is exciting. It's definitely not where you're gonna sit there half asleep. 

Katie: It's so cool that you said the tutorials were based on the Socratic method of asking questions, and it's so cool that God would lead you to a place like that to draw you to Him.

Carolyn: Absolutely. 

Katie: Which is maybe not what people would expect. At least not in the Bible Belt. People would not expect that. 

Carolyn: Oh, interesting!

Katie: Yeah. We tend to downplay our questions and doubts here in the South. We like to be nice. 

Carolyn: Well, as a Canadian, with a green card, I do have an affinity for niceness. I understand that politeness. And I love the South.

I guess what was wonderful about Oxford is there is this conversation base. So it's part of that model, that Socratic method that's not only asking intellectual questions and and giving you the freedom to explore all sorts of range, doubt and faith and all sorts of questions and issues, but there is a genuine civility. 

Katie: I love that. And so you're having these conversations not only in your tutorials or in the pubs with your friend group, but with a student, a fellow student that you refer to in the book as Tall, Dark and Handsome, or TDH for short.

I don't even remember his real name. And TDH was a Christian who engaged you in some really cool, really contentious sometimes conversations about faith and was sharing his faith with you, and you were pushing back a lot. So, when y'all started talking and you started considering things, what would you say was your biggest objection or the thing that just made you bow up the most against Christianity, and then how did God answer that?

Carolyn: I think at first, I remember one of the very first things he asked me was simply, who is God to you? Which no one had actually really asked me that before. And I think many of us can live our lives and not really think about either being asked that question or asking it of someone else.

So it was an excellent question because it was not off-putting. It was just sort of, it gets you thinking about, who is He? And what does it mean then to go from there to something like a personal God? And that kind of stopped me in my tracks. I think I was a perfect example again of a North American student that had worked many jobs, is so busy, running on this opiate of busyness all the time.

And especially students, I think there's so much pressure on them to earn their tuition, to work, to pay for living, all these things while they're studying. I just kind of hit the glass hard and had never really had, if we're gonna talk about Socrates, that famous line he has of, the unexamined life is not worth living.

You know, oftentimes we're kept busy and distracted, so we don't examine it. And we could be TikTok'd to death now. So there's a way in which someone asking a very profound question but a relevant one I think opened that door. And then after that, I think, I mean there were many things that I grappled with the Christian faith about, a lot of intellectual - I was probably more of an intellectual issue person.

But there are really viable answers for all those things, and it's actually a very comprehensive Christian faith. And there's a lot of historical evidence for Jesus having been here and all those kind of things. So you start to tick those boxes or you look at things or you look at the great intellectual history around Christianity and Christian thinkers that I couldn't dismiss.

There were so many that I really greatly respected, alive and dead. I thought, this is, inconvenient. And then as I read the Bible, too, cover to cover just as a story, it was very compelling. I just thought, oh wow. Gonna have to maybe pay some attention here and figure out what I think.

It's not as easy to put down as I thought it was. So I think there were lots of hiccups along the way, but ultimately for me it was more of a leap of the heart eventually. I really realized that it was ultimately not just an intellectual decision. 

Katie: I was remembering, you picked up the Bible to read it just as literature 'cause you hadn't done that before. Were there any particular parts of scripture that stood out to you in a literary way or just in any way - what grabbed you the most? 

Carolyn: Oh my gosh. The whole thing. You can't make this stuff up. It was literally, hands down, the most incredible piece of creative nonfiction I'd ever read. I thought, wow. I remember getting to just the first few chapters of Genesis and thinking, okay, that explains sin and suffering and crime and cancer and everything being broken right down to its very core through all creation.

And that fragmentation, I just thought, wow. I had never actually realized how much sense that makes. And then the template of all the prophecies, and the fact that there was something for everyone in it, and parts of myself and everyone in it, and parts of everyone I knew in it. And that on one hand I couldn't make this stuff up.

It was, as Goethe said, I had not the imagination for reality. But it was so believable and human in many ways too. It wasn't this radically bizarre book in some ways. Of course, there's historical elements, there's troubling elements, there's all of those things, but that makes it, I think, even more human.

And there's mystical elements and rational elements, and lots of stories of failure and shortcomings that are very real. So I just, the more I read, the more fascinated I became, and the more I realized that really how powerful the Christ story was, that all the stories I had ever read I realized were pointing me to this story.

Katie: And like, to read the Bible as literature, like if anybody's listening or watching and you have not just read the gospel of John or the book of Isaiah, pick it up because - and even in funny ways sometimes, like I was reading a book by Harrison Scott Key where he read the book cover to cover, going through a tough time in his life, and he came to the book of Isaiah and he was like, it sounded like it was written by a depressed Middle Earth elf king. And I was like, oh, no wonder I love Isaiah. 

Carolyn: Well, look what Tolkien was reading. 

Katie: Exactly. So yeah, the Bible is amazing literature. 

Carolyn: Mm-hmm. 

Katie: So tell me about, 'cause you do describe, and not everybody has this, not everybody has a moment, so to speak, when they convert. But you seemed to have one in Oxford that you describe in the book. So tell me briefly about that moment. And then what was the biggest change you noticed in yourself afterwards? 

Carolyn: You're right. I think for everyone it's different, right? And sometimes you grew up with a faith and it's a re-awareness. Other times it's a completely radical conversion.

I think I had been percolating for a while, but really a turning point for me I remember very distinctly was Valentine's Day, because I had gone out to a dance and a party, and everybody was drinking and everything else. And it wasn't so much about being prudish. I was used to that. But I don't know. I think the city of God and the city of man had never been clearer.

And what I mean by that is Augustine's notion of, there's the city of God and the eternal, and living in Christ and living in God and for the abundant life. And then there's the city of man in which we live for temporal things and things that can never fully satisfy. And they're two very different passports with two very different ends.

And we're called to live in peace, but there's all the difference between them. And so I just realized I wanted the city of God, and it was actually reading John again, sitting in my dorm room by myself.

It just kind of came up in 3D kind of like these two cities as well, especially the beginning of John. And maybe because I am a person that loves words. And that was a love language for me. We all have our different love languages the Lord speaks to us in. But that really jumped outta the page at me. I was praying the lowliest prayer I think there is, Lord, help me in my unbelief, which is also in the Bible. So there's something for everybody in there. And that was what I was praying. And that's when I did feel very much a shift. 

Katie: So then after that night, what was the first difference you noticed in yourself from the way you were living before? Or, since you had been percolating for a while, it may not have been as dramatic of a shift.

Carolyn: I tried to explain in the book, post-conversion maybe for some of us is a bit like a honeymoon period. You're like, wow, this is great. It's like when Dorothy opens the door from black and white to color in The Wizard of Oz. My mom was a little girl when that came out in the '30s, and she's like, I can remember everybody gasping in the theater. That was the first time everything seemed to be in color.

I can remember very vividly how it felt being amazed by this grace and actually that dropping fully into my reality. And yet being a newer Christian in which there's still this whole life of living into that - but that kind of honeymoon period of it being really amazing, which it is.

It's just, I think for some, how our conversions might go is like, wow, this just clicks, and God's grace is incredible, and you just wanna sing it from the rooftops, and all of a sudden the guy with the placard on the corner doesn't seem so crazy anymore. But then living into that, having to go back to friends and family that don't believe it, or who are antagonistic or who are cynical, and or to also have a profession like one in academia where you can be very isolated for having had any kind of faith, especially Christian faith. So there's, there was that sort of having to live into that. 

Katie: Yeah. The honeymoon eventually ended. 

Carolyn: Yes. It does and it doesn't, though. You know what I mean? That sort of, you know, you can't be unbaptized sort of thing. 

Katie: Yeah. That's so cool. And then you were baptized in a body of water. Tell me about that. 

Carolyn: In the river. Yeah. I was actually baptized by David Fletcher, the pastor at St. Ebbes, a lovely man who's since passed. And Vaughan Roberts, who's still there, he's also just a wonderful person. They would have baptism services at St. Ebbes at times that would be in the River Isis at the time, at Oxford. And it was June. I remember it being very cold. And then you'd have a pint after at The Trout, or whatever we were at. And it was really joyous.

I mean, it looks like you're completely crazy to people who are not followers of Jesus, which you are, you're being dunked in a freezing cold river in June, in England. But I can still remember it clear as day and I do wanna remember one of my friends who was not a Christian and who thought I was completely off my rocker but still came because she's like, it must be something, you know, for you to be so off your rocker.

Katie: Yeah. You're not on drugs, so... 

Carolyn: And I think when people - that's the, that's the amazing thing and how God works through love so much and why love is so powerful is that's what draws us, that is what overcomes fear and draws us all altogether, believers and unbelievers, right, the example of Christ shining through those who believe in Him. But also those who love us, even as unbelievers, are intimating that as well. 

Katie: Yeah, whether they know it or not. So you had gone to Oxford to study romantic literature and write about romantic literature. You're still teaching literature today, you're still in academia. So from the outside looking in, it's like, Jesus didn't necessarily redirect her career path as like maybe transform it. That's just the way it looks like to me. But how does your career look different today than maybe what you would've imagined before you knew Christ?

Carolyn: That's funny because in His great grace and mercy, I had always wanted to be a teacher, and I'd always wanted to be a teacher of literature. And I'm grateful that I am that. I love that. I'm so grateful and blessed to be able to do that. So in that sense, that trajectory didn't change. But everything changed in terms of what our lives really mean and who our Lord is and where our only hope really is, and where all stories point, and the purpose of all that we do, to enjoy Him and glorify Him forever, really is a powerful truth to live by.

So I think in a sense I would've loved to have taught anyway, but it just gave it all purpose. I never would've anticipated teaching at so many different places, some secular, some Christian, some seminary, some just partly from moving, visiting professorships, things like that. But it's given me a different landscape and navigation of different faith conversations within and without the faith too.

Katie: So then as you live out that calling to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, 'cause I talk about wanting to give people practical life hacks too, are there things that help you do that day to day when the alarm clock goes off? Practical habits or spiritual habits, or even people in your life that help you live out your calling on a daily basis? 

Carolyn: Well, I think that the tried and true biblical precepts are tried and true for a reason. So many wise counselors, having fellowship. I do think, I've said this before, but I do think fellowship is really different from friendship. It's "The Fellowship of the Ring," not the friendship of the ring. And what I mean by cultivating fellowship is having brothers and sisters in Christ who you really, you know, it's different than just friendship.

You can have a really wonderful friend, but if you don't know Christ together, you can only ever go so far. And they can certainly be very loyal or there for you, and I'm not saying Christians are perfect. But you can even meet a Christian who you've never met before and immediately ask for prayer.

You can be friends in an elevator, like immediately, and they don't think you're weird. There's no barrier in that sense. So I think making sure we have those relationships, that we seek them, that we cultivate them, that we seek them out.

I so appreciate my Christian friends who I know I can pray with, I can hold my heart accountable to, who I also know are my constants who - and again, not being perfect, but I think at least in Christ you can repent. And we're called to repent, we're called to have restitution. We're called to be reflective. We're called to bring our hearts before the Lord, before each other, that there's more space than just someone who's fair weather. And so having that, I think, is really important.

Reading scripture, you sound really basic and kind of stereotypical, but I used to scoff at morning scripture readers. 'Cause I don't like the morning and I'm not a morning person and I need coffee before I can do anything. I hear these people read their devotionals in the morning. Like, that is just so nauseating. But maybe since having children too and having a quiet time, it struck me to remember that you can't have a relationship with anyone you don't spend time with.

And that it's not that it's works based or we have to spend, achieve a certain amount with God, but that He really is there and wants to have a relationship with us and to cultivate a quiet heart or stillness at times to be able to develop prayer life and invest in that.

To have time with Him is not perfunctory or a box to check or something we should feel guilty about or whatever. It's really of high importance. And even in our busy day , where we're running and everything, especially in our culture, how can we have pockets to do that, a commute that we're intentional more about, or a few extra more minutes or whatever, a lunch hour or a prayer walk or even stepping out for a little bit when we're busy with something else?

That coupled with, I think I've learned a really great trick from some friends that I've admired, spiritual directors and things in which they have said, even just the practice of quiet immediate prayer. I think we constantly underestimate the power of God and the power that's available to us, and being able sometimes to remember, I don't have to answer this question immediately. I can take a second to pray. I don't have to help this person immediately. I can take a second even internally to pray. I don't have to say a word. There is that life force within me. And to remember that, I think, is really powerful. 

Katie: Yeah, man. You don't have to answer the question immediately. You're stepping on my toes, Carolyn, I'm telling you. I want to answer immediately! That's so good.

So for the college students or grad students who may be listening, this episode's gonna release toward the start of the fall semester. Do you have any general advice on how they can be inclusive of unbelievers on their campus and cultivate that diverse community and be a witness without being unduly influenced in return, especially if they're witnessing to an unbeliever that they're attracted to, which is definitely what TDH was doing with you? How do they navigate all that? 

Carolyn: That's hard. Except to just remember, I think, that our hearts need to be protected, they need to be guarded and kept between us and God, and that only we each individually answer for our own heart. There's nothing naive about cultivating purity. That's not naive at all. So again, discerning praying, having fellowship, thinking how can I be in this world and not of it?

And again, not in a trite way, but if I'm creating conversation or friendship or simply how can I be loving and present in a way that doesn't have a heavy proselytizing, I'm gonna hit people over the head with the Bible, but really be, I think, loving and in tune with what they need, how to have conversation, how to ask questions.

We ask so few questions. This is why I love your line of work and what you're doing here and why these kind of conversations are so important, but in day-to-day living, we ask so few questions. We presume, and we state, and we argue, and we step over, and we just don't ask people questions.

Oftentimes I think an antagonism towards the faith comes from a place of hurt or pain or trauma or betrayal, that the threads need to be pulled apart because it's not Jesus Himself. But it gets attributed to that, and we're throwing the baby out with the baptism water.

But there's also times in which maybe someone hasn't even thought about it, or maybe there's something else they need first before they can go to that place. Think about all the questions Jesus asks people. He usually meets them and asks them questions.

Katie: That's something I've had to try to learn is how to actually build that relationship and not just be like, here's the plan of salvation. Bye.

Carolyn: Yeah. And to pray again for discernment because different strokes for different folks, and sometimes that is what someone needs to hear or wants to hear. So again, it's not up to us to save people. It's not up to us to have the truth perfectly entailed, and we don't even have that ourselves.

We are completely and utterly dependent on God's grace. So, how can we be instruments in that way. And for ourselves as well, I think that keeps us from, again, losing ourselves in always going back and being rooted again in God's Word, in His love for us, in His unconditional and absolutely unfathomable and deep love for us.

Katie: Alright, Carolyn, we're gonna go into a little lightning round. A few quick questions at the end here. I know this might be like asking you to pick a favorite child, but today, as we record, what is your favorite romantic poem, and could you recite a few lines?

Carolyn: My heart leaps up when I behold / A rainbow in the sky: / So was it when my life began; / So is it now I am a man; / So be it when I shall grow old, / Or let me die! Wordsworth, I love Wordsworth. And the idea that my days should be bound each to each by piety. 

Katie: And when you mentioned the Professor Wordsworth earlier, is that, am I correct in that, that's one of his great grandchildren? 

Carolyn: Descendants? Yes. I was really blessed to be able to actually stay in Wordsworth cottage when I was a student. It was crazy. 

Katie: Man. Alright. Are you currently working on any other books or writing projects that we can look forward to? 

Carolyn: Yes, I am. So I am finishing up a volume of poetry, so hopefully that will be out soon. And then I'm working on actually a study of questions, questions that I was thinking about in relation to scripture as well as on some literary works that have really affected me and my faith as well. And, on the the power of reading and the importance of reading, especially in our day and age now.

Katie: Finally, do you have a favorite scripture or a life verse that maybe kind of sums up your story with Christ?

Carolyn: I think, again, going back to the beginning of John, I will always have a soft spot for the first chapter of John and the Word becoming flesh and being among us, I think because of my, as I said before, my love of words, and maybe this is also thinking about Lent and Easter and the incarnation. I've been rereading on the incarnation again. But really the mystery and the amazing grace of God in all His power entering a human body to suffer and die on our behalf and the immense love of that.

And so I think there's something about the first chapter of John as well as John 14. My mom, that was her favorite chapter. I'm a big John person, because I think he's so literary and so beautiful and metaphorical. But John 1 and John 14, really meaningful for me.

Katie: Well, thank you so much, Dr. Carolyn Weber, for being on the show today. This was so much fun. I don't know how I'm gonna even cut anything from this episode because it's all so awesome. 

Carolyn: Oh, well Katie, thank you. You're the one with the wonderful questions. 

Katie: Well, thank you so much. 

Carolyn: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a delight. 

Katie: Yeah. And y'all, if you enjoyed this episode of Oh my Word with Katie, please share it with your friends, and if you're on Apple Podcasts, please give us both a rating and a review, because the more of those we get, the more people we can reach with the joy that's found only in Jesus. I'll talk to y'all soon!