Fatherhood, Ego, and the Standard You Set for Your Daughter w/ Christopher Veal

What does your daughter learn from you — even when you’re not trying to teach?

In this episode, we explore the deeper side of fatherhood — the kind that challenges your identity, your ego, and the way you show up every day.

I’m joined by Christopher Veal, a TEDx speaker, Certified Professional Co-Active Coach, and author of The Whole Man: Evolving Masculinity, and the host of The Vulnerable Man Podcast. His work centers on helping men better understand vulnerability and redefine what it means to be a man in today’s world.

From emotional regulation to modeling relationships, this conversation dives into what it really means to raise daughters — and how the process transforms you as a man.

You’ll hear insights on:

• The weight of being your daughter’s first example of a man
• How everyday interactions shape her expectations of relationships
• Why ego can get in the way of growth as a father
• The importance of repair, patience, and intentional presence
• How to shift from reacting to responding in high-emotion moments

This episode is a reminder:

You don’t have to be perfect.
But you do have to be intentional

🎙 The Daughtered Podcast — Where fathers grow, evolve, and lead with love.

The Vulnerable Man Podcast

Book: The Whole Man

00:00 Choosing Your Response
00:35 Podcast Welcome and Guest Intro
02:07 Christopher’s Background and Mission
03:22 Life Feels Like Building a Plane
04:12 Why These Conversations Matter
06:16 Girl Dad Growth and Standards
07:44 First Man She’ll Love
13:12 Modeling Relationships in Public
16:42 Home as the Safe Space
23:04 Teaching Emotions vs Actions
24:24 How Boys Learn to Suppress Feelings
28:12 Redefining Strength and Masculinity
29:47 Repair After Anger
31:31 Daughters Change Dads
33:51 Media Models of Fatherhood
35:54 Community Over Certainty
39:14 Curiosity Not Combat
40:46 Identity Boxes and Growth
46:55 Ego Checks in Parenting
49:40 Bootcamp for New Dads
52:08 Not Babysitting Parenting
53:24 Progress and New Narratives
57:20 Keep Showing Up
58:53 Final Thanks and Subscribe

Guest Disclaimer:

The views and opinions expressed on this podcast are solely those of the guests. They do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the host, any organizations, companies, or institutions mentioned, or corporate entities represented by the host.

Our aim is to provide a platform for diverse perspectives and open dialogue. While we strive for accuracy and balance, it's important to recognize that opinions may vary. We encourage critical thinking and further exploration of the topics discussed.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:46

There's nothing wrong with taking mom to be human. And I think that's something I've tried to model for my daughter is I haven't explicitly said, but there's already a lot of evil and bad in the world. You don't need to bring more of it. Because I'm I'm a big believer in there's no such thing as good or bad emotions. Emotions are just emotions. Like happy and sad and angry are all just emotions. It's how we respond and act that gives it the labels. You know, as you say that, what makes me think of is we always have choice in every moment of how we act or how we respond. There's a saying I came across years ago and it said, you know, stop being so afraid of what could go wrong and start getting excited for what could go right.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Welcome to the Daughter Podcast, where fathers become everyday heroes in their daughters' lives. Grow, evolve, and lead with love. Here's your host, Oscar Pinya.

SPEAKER_04 1:31

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Daughter Podcast. Oscar here, your fellow growing girl dad. Today with another fellow growing girl dad, I have Christopher Veal, who is the host of the Vulnerable Man podcast, who I was honored to be on. But today we get to flip the table and put him on the hot seat. And really, we're going to talk about being girl dads and just figuring out how to be better men for our families and for our daughters. Chris, man, how are you today?

SPEAKER_02 2:00

I am good. I'm looking forward to this conversation, Oscar. And I just want to say for those that haven't listened to the episode you were on, go back and check it out. I love the conversation you and I had. And we got to go to some interesting places as well. And of course, we talked about being girl dads. So, you know, that's the conversation.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

That inevitably has to come up. Right, right. And I would second that. Go back and listen to that because essentially, if you guys don't, you probably miss a bunch of riff that's going on today. Because if you've ever talked to Chris, you will know he's just super relatable. Uh, we sat there and we kind of joked like we could probably sit here for two hours, right? And then get, you know, get the boss in the back, kind of giving us the look, like, what are you doing? You know. Um, right. But yeah, so I'm super excited to have you, brother. And and like I said, I want to flip the table a little bit and start getting your version and your perspective of being a girl dad. So happy to. With all that said, bring us into Christopher Veil's life a little bit, a little bit about your background, your family, and uh, and how you got to sit in front of the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Sure. The the short version is, and you mentioned the one that's the most important rule I have, I'm the father to a 16-year-old daughter. And so that is hands down the most important job I've ever had and I will ever have. So super proud of my young lady. I also, in my, when I am doing my real work, I like to say, I do executive coaching and leadership development. So I work with organizations and leaders to help them, I like to say, be the reason their people stay, not the reason that they quit. Because we've probably all known someone or we've worked for someone that was the reason we left that job. And so if I can help leaders not be that, that's what I love. And the beautiful thing about it is I get to help them be a little more vulnerable in the process. And so that's part of my own personal mission in the world is to bring about healthier masculinity so that I can leave this world better for my daughter than the world that I inherited. And I live in Southern California. You may see my dog wandering around. I have we have a five-year-old boxer puppy, and I call him a puppy because he's still very much like that. And you know, we're just we're taking this thing called life one day at a time and following this adventure.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

Well, welcome to the club. If you if you didn't, I didn't get a manual of mine.

SPEAKER_02 4:06

I don't know about you.

SPEAKER_04 4:07

I'm still trying to find it. I was just talking um to Taylor, who I uh had a conversation with earlier today, and I was like, dude, I'm uh I'm gonna, you know, I fly for my job a lot, and sometimes we have issues with the plane, right? And it translates right to life. Like I'm like, I feel like I'm building this plane as I'm moving.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Right. And some days I'm like, I think it's crashing. Like I'm doing everything is possible to you know to keep it up in the air. And other days I'm like underneath trying to fix something, and I come up and I'm like, wait, what's going on? I have no clue what's going on. Yeah, and then other days, very little, but other days it feels like hey, we're it's on cruise control, autopilot. Yeah, there's no turbulence. What's right going on? Then you're like, what's wrong? You're waiting for the next thing to happen, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fatherhood.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Right, yeah, absolutely. It's uh it's wild, man. You mentioned making the world better for your daughter, leaving it better than you found it, right? And that's ultimately, I mean, I think that's why you and I clicked so well because when we were talking, that's the path that we're taking, right? Right. Yes, I want to be. I this is a selfish endeavor. You all have heard me say that. This is me learning from Chris, turning off the uh the recording and going to implement. I mean, it's 100% selfish. I want to be better for my daughters. But I believe in the bottom of my heart that as we do this, as we have this conversation, and as we talk about community, which I know you're very big on, we're building something that even if you can't be the guy that like says, Hey Chris, can you help me out? We're building something where they can come and hear Chris talk and realize, oh, he's already gone through this. Let me see how he did this, right? And we we're helping by virtue of this, right? And so uh it's it's really critical that we we leave these here and that they're an earshot of someone else.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Right. Well, one of the things you said when you were on my on my podcast is you talked about there may be one day that your daughters go back and listen to this and hear about the man you were and the man you were working to become. And that's one of the things that I just really want to underscore for everyone because I'm grateful. First of all, I'm excited and grateful to be on this podcast and this conversation with you because it's always great to me to talk about being a girl dad because there's something different about it. I'm not taken away from the dads that are have boys, right? But there's something different about being a girl dad. But I loved your story that you shared about why you created this, because it's not necessarily that we have to fix everything, but the more we can normalize these conversations and help other dads start to realize, okay, I'm not the only one that's maybe struggling with that or is celebrating that. That's how we make all the men be better dads because they don't feel like they have to do it alone. So thank you for creating this space too.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Oh well, thank you for coming over here and sitting with us.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:58

So let's get this going. I mean, yes, this is really gonna be fun. We talk about masculinity in your show a lot. We talk about the the connection between masculinity and vulnerability and or the disconnect between masculinity and vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

One thing that I've found as a hundred percent girl dad, uh three time I would say um three time champion, but I don't think I'm wearing three times a charm, something like that. Yeah, right, yeah, right. Uh is that there's been a lot of learning about myself in ways that I would have never thought of. Ever. Right. Even if I thought of being a parent, I still never thought of the ways that I have grown and and the things I've learned about myself through the fatherhood of raising these girls. Right. Tell me a little bit about that because you have had obviously your show and you've had men on there talk exactly about that, the growth that they're getting from connecting masculinity and vulnerability, but also from not even knowing that the vulnerability side is there until we get into these situations.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Right. Well, I mean, there's probably 17 different directions we can go. So I'll pick one and we'll go where we go. But I think the thing that is important for me to name here is when I became in. So we waited to find out if we were having a boy or a girl. So that was a whole conversation with my wife at the time. And she wanted to find out. I didn't. And I said, you know, there's so few things that we get as surprises in life, you know, why wouldn't we? So we went back and forth a little bit about it. And finally she said, like, I said, if you want to, great, but please don't tell me. Like, I do want to find a surprise. And she eventually said, you know what, let's wait and see. So it was kind of cool in that regard because we didn't know. And so we had to pick out a boy name and a girl name. But one of the things that becoming a father to a daughter really shifted in me is it had me start to look at how do I interact with women. Now, I wasn't being a jerk or being an a-hole before that, but it had me really start to look at what were the ways that I was interacting with women. Now, I was raised by a single mother, so I also think I had a slightly different perspective being raised by her than maybe guys that are brought up in a, you know, a mother and father household, or we're beyond that now. Like we're in a world where there's all kinds of dynamics. But it had me start to think about who's the man I want to be. And my my father-in-law, he passed away a number of years ago, but he said to me when she was born, he said, You are the first man she will ever love. And that hit me in a way that I couldn't even imagine at the time. And it really, I was just like, wow, I am setting the standard. And so it got me really mindful of how do I want to behave and interact with her? Because how I treat her will be the model for how she expects men to treat her in the world and what she will or won't tolerate. And so with that, I I was like, like, I gotta show up. And so that was an important choice for me.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

That's a big weight. It's a big weight to realize you have and then to pick up and carry. And I say pick up because unfortunately, we've seen men who choose not to pick up that weight. Right. And then more unfortunately, we see the young girls, the adult women that carry that weight because the mandate.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

Right. Um and it, I mean, you could go, you could find story after story after story on that. When I look when I think of that, it brings me back to my um infancy as a father. No pun intended, right? Like she gets there, and I don't think I realize that that weight.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:02

The this like you are the man that you're the the the example, the blueprint of what what she's going to expect to get and not get, and and all these things. I felt the weight of a father, I think. I felt like I need to provide, I need to do these things, I need to, I need to learn because I don't know anything now. Like I felt, you know, you know how like we're young, we're we think we know everything, and then all of a sudden they get here, and you're like, I don't I don't know anything.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

I have no idea what I'm doing here, right? Like we said, mine didn't come with an instruction manual.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

That's right. Yeah, and you know, and I'm like, I I don't know how to raise a girl. Like, come on. So I don't think I felt that weight until later when I started to realize, like, and I can't tell you when exactly it hit me, but it it wasn't that far out. I think it was just that all of a sudden you make that connection as you're you're holding her or you're watching her do something, and then you just and and so the the weight just felt triple yeah, yeah, like triple heavy, right? Like all of us, like yes, I had the fatherhood thing, but now I'm like, holy crap, I can screw this up royally.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, well, and here's the thing I'm also gonna say, yes, we go to that place, but what we also don't think is wow, I could do an amazing thing here too, right? But you notice how we often go to the I don't want to screw it up, right? Yeah, so I I like to, I'm a big believer in look at both sides, right? Yeah, you know, it yes, and and listen, we both have military background, so we look at the world in a different lens. Yeah, and I often will I'll plan for the worst so that that any surprises, you know, I'm prepared for. But there's a saying I came across years ago and it said, you know, stop being so afraid of what could go wrong and start getting excited for what could go right?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

And sometimes I need to just remind myself of that and go, yeah, like maybe this situation is really crappy right now, but you know, how can I show up in a way that's going to help my daughter or the people in my life that matter, you know, feel like there's possibility and not necessarily always looking for the worst case.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

Yeah. Is there a point that you can point to um where you felt that that that shift where like, oh no, no, let me be excited about the possibility, let me stop worrying about the worst.

SPEAKER_02 13:20

I mean, the simple answer is I don't know if I don't know. I'm sure there has been, you know, but again, so my daughter just turned 16 last year, she's gonna be 17 this year. Driving was a whole new adventure. So where we kind of got to a place where I'm like, life is good. And also, it's like, oh goodness, now she's got to drive. And, you know, I have to remember as I'm trying to help her learn how to drive, yeah, first of all, I have to forget that I know a lot more than she does. I had decades of experience. And so I had to remember sometimes to just sit back, like literally sit back in my chair, take a breath, and just shut up. Yeah. Right. Uh, so to your question about a specific point, I don't know that there was one where I just said, oh, you know, it clicked. There's probably multiple little moments along the way. But something I want to point to that you were talking about a moment ago is yes, we are that first model for our daughters. But the other thing that they're also watching is how are we interacting with our partner?

SPEAKER_01 14:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Because it's not just how we treat them, but you know, like my wife, now my ex-wife, a whole different story. But, you know, how I showed up in that relationship, that was going to model for my daughter what to expect in a relationship. Yeah. You know, it's funny. So we, she's a Girl Scout. We just had a Girl Scout booth earlier today selling cookies. And this couple walks in, yelling at each other as they go in. And she just kind of looks at me and I'm like, yeah, that's probably not too healthy. And as they come out a few minutes later, they're cussing at each other. And I said, Oh man, yeah, kiddo, that's not what you want to aspire to. She's like, Yeah, that doesn't look very healthy. I said, No, no, it's not. And so it was just a good reminder for me of she notices those things. And so, you know, the way that we can create more examples for them to see it, I think that's part of our job too. And it doesn't mean we have to be perfect, right? But when troubles come up in a relationship, if you're willing to lean in and have those conversations, that's what they're gonna see. And that's what they're gonna model and emulate later in life.

SPEAKER_04 15:32

And I I would be willing to bet that you have to extrapolate that even further, right? How does my dad interact with the waiter? How does my dad interact with the person at the counter when their flight's delayed, when everything went wrong because of the company that you're dealing with, whatever that is. And now I want to see how he's reacting to it. Right. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

How does it be like they are they are always watching? As much as we think they're not paying attention, especially when they're younger. Oh, they are soaking it all up. They really are. Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

My daughter, uh, we we traveled a couple of years ago in the airport, and I I don't think I was not paying attention, but I you hear it a lot at the airport, right? Someone's going off on the agent there because something's happening.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:19

Um, it wasn't extreme, but my daughter, my um, my middle daughter, she was eight at the time or something like that. And I didn't like bring it up or anything. We happened to start walking, and you know, we go get food or what have you. And then she just it almost felt like she had like whatever she watched and listened, just percolated. And then when we went to go sit down, she's like, Why was that man doing that? And you know, and so she was processing it, yeah. Yes, exactly. And I want to believe it's she was asking it in that manner because she's never seen me do that, and and I can honestly say, I'm not saying that I've never done that, right? I can honestly say I've never done that in front of my daughters, and I and I've as I've grown up, I I've gotten you know, I've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

We all do, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:09

Yes, I I'm to the point where it's like that that person right there doesn't make policy, like yeah, right, right, yeah, yeah. They're trying to keep their job, they're doing what they're supposed to be doing, whatever. Right, yeah, but she was thinking of that because I don't she's never seen me react like that to a stranger out in the world.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Kudos to you on that.

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Now, but here's the kicker. How many times have I reacted like that in our home? Right, yep, yep, right, and so am I giving her this normality of like, hey, we don't do that to people, but we could do it in the house, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:47

Which, and here's the ironic thing we don't do that to strangers, yes, but people we love and care about we can treat like that, right? Now, maybe that's not the connection she's making, but I hope not, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:57

Yeah, I hope not.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

I hope not.

SPEAKER_04 17:58

Because I mean it's one thing I've learned recently is is how, and this is you know, I you're probably gonna be much better uh acquainted with this than me. I have a teenager in the house, right? And uh days, some days are um challenging high high energy, right? That's a very good way to put it, yeah. High emotion, high energy. Right, and I've I've literally sat there, I'm like, I know you don't act like this in school. Like, what the heck is going on? And you know, talking to Dr. Emerson, for example, it's like she's like this is she came home, she is in a safe environment, yes, she can now do the thing, yeah, right? Release all this energy that maybe she pent up over there, and you know, 14, 15, 16-year-old girls, their world is uh in my opinion, is just insane.

SPEAKER_02 18:58

I can't even can't even fathom it.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

Right. And so this is the safety, and but it's so hard, brother, to like and it's a vulnerable thing. I I know it it may not sound like it, but it's like for me to be able to take that, say, all right, this is her safe space, like now we we make it a point, like hey, emotions, cool, got it. Actions, totally different, like you can't act like that. Exactly. But it's just so interesting that we sh we show one side to strangers, um because I don't even know why, like, that's just how we've been taught, right? Right, but then when we're home, it's so easy to just flip and and right the the switch goes off because emotions, because something didn't get done, because because we are also in our safe spot, right, right, and we have also kept it together throughout the day. Um, but again, the biggest thing for me is to remember their frontal cortex is still not developed, right? Mine may not be developed because of what I things I've done to it, but uh it technically should be done, right? So I need to be the responsible one. But it's really interesting that we we have that that that difference, and it's something that hit me when we had the conversation when she's like, Hey, how come that guy acted like that? I was like, Oh, you know, sometimes people have a bad day, whatever, you know, trying to trying to give her reality and then realizing like, but wait, what is she seeing from me? And how come she's never asked me that about me?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

Yeah, yeah. You know, as you say that, what makes me think of is we always have choice in every moment of how we act or how we respond, right? And you know, I remember Victor Frankel talking about not that I heard Victor Frankel talk about it, but you know, we talked about the idea of, you know, in between that, that um uh whatever, like the stimulus and the response, we have that moment we can we can choose how to react. And I try and keep that in mind sometimes because even like you're talking about somebody in the airport. I remember what years ago I was traveling, weather delays, like I knew when I got to my connection there was no way because we were already probably like 30 minutes beyond. So I'm like, there's storms everywhere. So I'm like, all right, first thing I'm doing is I'm going to the gate, find the ticketing agent. How do I get home? Right. And as I'm standing in line, the guy in front of me is just exploding on this poor woman behind the counter. And I'm pretty sure she isn't responsible for the weather. She didn't delay us flight. And so, you know, when he left, I just walked on and said, Hey, thank you for trying to help us out. I realize this is crazy. I know I've already missed my flight. I'm just hoping you can help me figure out how I'm gonna get home. And like you could see her just physically like relaxing. Take a breath, right? Because she was bracing herself. Now, I'm not saying I made her day, but you know, again, I I don't have to unload on this woman because it's not going to accomplish anything. Right. You know, I remember my grandmother used to say, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

And so when I go to the grocery store, as I'm the person's checking my stuff out, I'll look at their name tag and I'll say, Hey Jamie, hey Bill, how you doing today? Like there's nothing wrong with taking a moment to be human. And I think that's something I've tried to model for my daughter is I haven't explicitly said, but there's already a lot of evil and bad in the world. You don't need to bring more of it.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

You know, be the reason somebody smiles today, even if it's for just a moment. And that's the way I try and interact. And I think I model. And I think it's showing up because I see her doing things sometimes like it too. And so that's one thing that I'm proud of is like she's a good human, you know. And and, you know, my ex-wife and I, we've done a great job of co-parenting her. You know, so I know we had a partner. A lot of people say your kid's great. And I go, she's a great kid. I'm like, but we also had a hand in it too. So, you know, we got to take credit where credit is due sometimes.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Yeah. And and and I think that we forget about that because we we get what we get at home, the safe space.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:45

And in I've especially this year, like I just I've tried to make it a point to to think or to understand that we get what we get here because they are modeling what we asked them to model out.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

And that takes a lot of work, especially with a less developed frontal cortex, right? So that takes a lot of work. And then you look at uh the five year old is easy for me. And I say that in the sense of like, I can understand how she acts sometimes. She's five, right? But also, she's allowed me to see like you hold it together all day in school. They made you take a test. You're in kindergarten. Like, that's a lot of stress for a kindergartner, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Right.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

And so she'll come home and dude, like the simplest thing. She'll drop something, boom, bomb goes off. And I stand there and I'm almost, I kid you not, I'm almost trying to like cover my mouth because I just want to laugh. I'm like, right, how is that? Which definitely won't help at all, right? No, no, no, no, no. Right. But then you flip the switch, and the 14-year-old can have the same reaction, and and I don't want to laugh. I'm like, right, hey, wait a minute. Like this is not happening, right? And I think there's got to be some discernment. Obviously, five and fourteen, much different. But I also think there's got to be some uh equality, I guess the word is, is like giving them the same um not the same treatment. How do I say this? Like the same level of patience.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Right. Maybe there is. Well, but I think there's also there is a different level of expectation because you're right. A five-year-old, you're not expecting to react and respond with the same level of maturity that a 14-year-old is. And you're right, a 14-year-old, like even a 14-year-old girl, way ahead of a 14-year-old boy, you know, one of the things that I can't lie, I'm grateful my daughter sometimes comes home and says, you know, dad, she calls me papa. High school boys are dumb. I said, yes, they are, kiddo. And I said, unfortunately, I don't think they get much smarter in college. Like their brains take a little longer to catch up, but you know, deal with it. But I think it is okay that we work to help that 14-year-old start to understand that yes, you can still have emotions, because I'm I'm a big believer in there's no such thing as good or bad emotions. Emotions are just emotions. Like happy and sad and angry are all just emotions. It's how we respond and act that gives it the labels, but they're just emotions. And so I try and teach my daughter that because often if somebody's in what we call a, you know, a not a good emotion, they're sad, we want to try and make them better. And try part of what I've tried to do as a, as a parent and as a father, is I want to help her understand the emotions that are going on. And then she gets to choose what she wants to do with it. But I don't say you can't have that emotion because when we try and bottle them up, and that's a thing that a lot of young men get taught, is you know, I use the example a lot, and I'm going on a tangent, but we're going down this rabbit hole anyways. Let's do it. You look at a little girl and a little boy, about three or four or five years old. If they fall down and scrape their knee, we treat them about the same. We put our arm around them, we say, Hey, how you doing, kiddo? Like it's okay, you know, and we and we nurture them. And then around six or seven years old, they start to get different messages. And the little girls, we still nurture. And I'm speaking in a very general sense, but it's like, hey, and we and we still nurture them. But the little boys, what do we start telling them? Hey, suck it up, don't cry, you know, rub some dirt on it, be a man, right? Telling a nine-year-old boy, be a man. The worst insult you can get as a young boy is don't be a girl, or you're like a girl, right? And so the message that we're unconsciously telling them is you can't have emotions, or you can only have certain emotions. And so we wonder why they start to stifle these things early on. Don't even get me started about sports. I'm all about sports, but the messages they hear in those places too. And so we are we are training these young men to suppress emotions, and then we wonder why later on they have difficulty talking about it and living into them and they explode in unhealthy ways. So, all right, I'll get off my soapbox for a minute. Well, clearly I'm a little bit ultimate about this.

SPEAKER_04 26:43

I was just watching uh the sandlock. Yes, and that was the trigger, right? Like when they're they're the two little right, I don't even know what they're called, the two little gangs, when the argument's like you play ball like a girl, and that was like that what that was it. You just crossed the DMZ, my man. Yeah, that's right. It was it was time to go. Um, you know, I I I don't I don't I agree with you. I I don't know that and again, this is you know, not the and we can disagree.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Like I like conversations like this, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

I I want to believe there's some validity to it, maybe not all of it, but in in let me rephrase this. I'm not talking about the emotion because you're right. What happens is that we are taught that the emotion is not good, right? And what ends up happening, and I know you know this better than anybody for men, um fear, anxiety, uh you name it, there's like two others, particular ones. There's a bunch, but two others, we always present as anger, right? Right, because we we didn't figure it out. We just call it anger and we don't go deeper. Right. I'm just mad, like but but why? Like because it's dumb or because it's you know, whatever. Um, and that's something that I think inadvertently and probably in a bad way, maybe my daughters have taught me. Like I have gone off in anger. Well, I let me rephrase that, my words sound angry, right? But it's when I sit back, now that I'm able to like sit down and think through what just happened, right? And in and I'll tell you guys this, like it happens a lot, right? I go do something, I come back, I'm like, that is not how I wanted that to go. Right. Like, yep. But I come back, I start thinking about it. I'm like, oh, that was that came out as anger, but it was actually this.

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Right. And and it happens a lot for fathers in fear of danger of XYZ. Right, right. Right. Um, I think uh Dan Cook had like a skit about it where he's like, you know, they come home and the doors open, someone might have broken in, and instantly the dad is like, get back, like it's like anger right away, right? But it's like fear. And I think it's because we it was just, I don't know if it's easier, but it was just the norm that that's how you do it. Right? You fell down, you scraped your knee. Hey, go and get up. Like, life is gonna kick you down, just get back up, right? Right, and there's a lesson there, I get that, yes, but how we go about it may not be it, right? And the reason I said I may disagree with a little bit of that was that I do still think that I, and and again, maybe this is just the the uh programming, right? But I want to be the tough person in my household. I I want to do that, I want to be like the the the strong oak, if you will, yeah, in the home, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:51

Yeah, well, here's the thing. So I I absolutely agree with that, but I think what I where I'm trying to point to is we often narrow the scope of what it means to be a man. And we say you have to be like when we talk about that typical man box thinking, you gotta be strong, you gotta be that provider, you can never let them see you sweat, you should never be wrong. Like it's like it's all the you have to be all these things. And for me, I'm in the space of like, what's it like to be that and? You know, like I'm a combat veteran. I went to Iraq, right? I saw some stuff that people shouldn't see. That messes with you. But if I have to walk around every day saying, like, I'm invincible and bulletproof and nothing bothers me, like I'm just fooling myself. My daughter has seen me cry. Now, me 20 years ago probably would have been like, there's no way that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

But what I what for me, what's important is I want her to see that I can have this full expression of what it means to be human. And so to the thing you were talking about a moment ago, I think part of where we can do a better job as society is start to help, especially young men. I think young women do better because women tend to talk about emotions more, but help them build more of a vocabulary. So just like you talked about, it's okay, I'm feeling angry. Well, if that's the only word I know, that's what I'm gonna color all of those emotions with. But it's like, okay, so what's underneath that? Oh, like I'm frustrated. Oh, what's that? And being willing to. And so if we can start to help, and again, I'm gonna say young men, it's not that young women don't struggle with it, but the more we can normalize those conversations. Or for example, when you have that reaction, being able to come back and say, Hey, I realize this is what was going on, kiddo, right? Like I just want you to know, I know it sounded like I was angry, but here's what was going on. That helps them start to see too. Right. And so I think the more we can show those examples, the more we can help them see a broader range of how we can show up as men and as fathers.

SPEAKER_04 31:34

Yeah. I I completely agree with that. And that that situation that I just spoke of was just that. It was me coming back, yeah, realizing messed that up in these ways. It came out as anger. My daughter felt it as anger towards her, where really in reality it was this is a fear of mine. This is what I felt, and I apologize for the way it came out, right? Not necessarily apologizing for what I need to get across to you, but it should not have came out this way.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

So you're right, maybe it is the uh teaching a Neanderthal vocabulary, right? I mean, it's we're we're talking about not being able to express that.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Right. Well, I just want to say kudos to you for going back and having that conversation with your daughter, too. Because there's a lot of guys that would have just been like, oh well, it happened. Right. And and they just stuff it down, which then teaches their kids to stuff it down. Like, so the fact that you were willing to say, hey, here's what it was, like that's important because that's modeling for her. Okay, sometimes you're not gonna get it right. You don't have to be perfect. By the way, we're human, we're gonna be imperfect. Yeah, but that sometimes you can make mistakes and you still get to be in relationship and figure out how do we move forward.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Well, I I think that's something they taught me because I think you mentioned a second ago, if if you had this had been me 12 years ago, it's not the same.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 32:59

Yep. Right? Yeah, and and that's something that you and I briefly talked about before. Where is it possible? Let me rephrase that. I rephrase a lot, obviously.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

That's all good.

SPEAKER_04 33:13

I think it's possible to realize that my daughters have created a different person, have made a different person.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

Now, the one thing I always argue with folks when I say that is you have to allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yes, right?

SPEAKER_04 33:30

Absolutely, lower the ego, figure out that you have learning to do, and then get on learning. Yep. And they've taught me a lot in that manner. I've mentioned this before as well that I don't know that I would have done that or at least learned it as quickly had I had a son first. Because I think I had, you know, to your point, I probably already had a playbook or book blueprint of well, if I have a boy, this is how I raise him. Right. Whereas when I had my daughter, I feel like I had to just go figure this out because I had zero idea. I had never even thought about having a daughter.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

Right. You know what? I think what I'd say to that is maybe. And and here's why. Because again, like we we we maybe have this, and and again, I've got friends that are are fathers to sons, and some of them tell me, I thought I knew what I was doing, and I didn't either. So I I think like I hear what you're saying, and I also think that like when we step into parenthood, we don't know. Yeah, you know, um, and you're right, if I had a son, like I probably, I probably would have shown up differently. You know, would I have been exploring what masculinity meant to me? And you know, I maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But I also know if I keep playing the what if game, I can go down 14,000 rabbit holes and who knows if any of them are legit, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

So part of what I'm looking at is who am I today? Who's the man I am and who's the father that I'm being, and how do I keep doing a good job at that, right? Not a perfect job, a good job.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

How have you been able to flip that switch for some of the men that that you talk to?

SPEAKER_02 35:07

You know, I think it's conversations like this. You know, I think back to so I grew up in the like I was a child of the I was born in the 70s, but like I a lot of the influence that I saw in media and stuff was in like the late 70s, early 80s. And when I think back to the examples of fatherhood that I would see on TV, the the typical fathers were kind of the goofy, the bumbling dad. Like you knew he loved the kids and he'd take care of them, but you kind of always wondered, are we gonna have to call 911? Is the house gonna burn down? Like, can we really trust dad with the kids? And when mom would come home and the kids were okay, it was kind of like, oh, and we'd get the comic laugh track. Right. And so if that's the examples that men grew up seeing, first of all, it it tells young men, you don't, you've only your bar's only here.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:50

Right. And so then when the women in their lives are like, I need you to be up here, you know, you we're already creating a disproportionate uh expectation. But if you don't see the example, so to your question, how do we shift that? I think the more we have conversations like this, and men hear other men talking about how they're showing up, how they're not necessarily falling into that madmen stereotype of, you know, what you're supposed to be as a dad, I think that's helping. And and I'm a big believer in, I think you and I talked about this when you were on my podcast. I don't fault the men that came before us because they were operating off of the examples they had, right? You know, a lot of the guys that I talk to, when I ask about what their relationships with their fathers were like, a number of them, it's it's saddening how many of them say, I don't know that I ever saw my dad cry. Or like, I knew he loved me, but he never said it.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

And so again, those guys were doing the best they could with what they have. But the more we have conversations like this, the more guys go, Oh, wait, I can show up like that. You know, I tell my best friend, I love you. Now, probably we've known each other almost 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

We didn't do that initially, but the first time I remember doing it, I was like, I'm not sure how this is gonna go, but like you just got it right back. Right. But I knew I loved him, I knew he loved me. And so again, it's like we have this kind of like bro code that you're not supposed to say that kind of stuff, but you can care about your guys, but you know, so I don't know, I don't know where I'm going with all this.

SPEAKER_04 37:10

Well, I just it's you know, I think we have a platform where we get to learn these up front. And I I mentioned that earlier, right? I it's something that for me has been transformative to be able to sit down and have these conversations and sometimes leave the conversation like, I don't know if I agree with that, but yeah, my brain is moving. Like it is like right, like the the thought process of going through and thinking in a different perspective for a second, and then the thing I like to point out is it's not taking what I like and what I don't like, taking what works for the situation that I'm in and what doesn't work, hold off, right? Yep, the conversations that you and I have that I have with other folks, the building of the community to enter these conversations really the the feedback I've gotten is that as I mentioned earlier, even if they don't call Chris for help, right? They can't if they can't physically dial the number because of pride, ego, whatever, whatever you want to call it. You turn this on in the car and you're like, oh, I don't know if I agree with that, but now my brain's moving. Yep, right? Yep. Um it's it's it's refreshing to hear that when when I get when I get it for the show, and I'm sure you you get it as well, like, oh man, I'm glad it made you think.

SPEAKER_00 38:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

I don't I'm not here to tell you anything you probably already don't know or you haven't heard from someone. Uh I probably should preface every episode by saying this is not medical, psychological, um professional help.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

If they think you are giving medical advice, they're already like I mean, like that, yeah, right? Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 38:56

But you see what I mean? Like it's like I'm glad that even just the conversation is having an impact somewhere because even if you couldn't figure, like figure out how to ask for the help, you heard it. Right. And now, and now you have a tool in the toolbox, and who knows? That might have made a difference, right? Yeah, um, I had a conversation recently with a dad that said that he just didn't really think much about his presence. He just was like it, and really what it sounded like to me was um autopilot, which happens to all of us, right? Especially, especially when time when when things are going well, smooth, and it's so easy to get into autopilot, right? Right. I mean, I've been guilty of it. My wife has called me out, like, hey, are you even here right now? Yeah, right, yeah, and what I told him was if we can help one person with intentionality by having a conversation, imagine what happens when they actually put it into practice.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:05

That person gained this amazing time with their child, and that child got an intentional father.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:13

You put those two together, the world will be better for it.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Right. Um, yeah, I think I got lost in that thought too. But it's it's just it, I think these these are important in the community that that hears is is really the stronghold of these conversations.

SPEAKER_02 40:29

Right. Well, I think something I want to emphasize in what you're saying too is there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with people. I think sometimes we feel like if we don't agree with the people we're talking to, something's wrong. I'm a big believer in like I want to hear different opinions. Yeah. But where I think a lot of people get tripped up is we've been taught that we have to advocate for our side of the argument.

SPEAKER_01 40:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

And we can't give any ground, right? Now, here's the thing. I will happily have a conversation with someone that's willing to listen both ways. And what I want, I don't want to necessarily talk about why you're right and I'm wrong, or vice versa, but why is that important to you? What's important about that to you? And when I get to hear about that, I'm not necessarily saying I have to agree with your thinking. But if I take the time to understand why that's important to you, what matters about it, that may have me kind of go, oh, I can respect something about that. It doesn't mean it's changing my opinion. And if you're willing to reciprocate and hear what I'm having to say, I think that matters. But a lot of the times, and I'll say I'll use politics as a perfect example, yeah. You're either on this side or that side. And if you don't agree with me, but nobody's willing to say what's underneath it, like what are we ultimately trying to do? And because of that, the the conversation is always I'm right, you're wrong, you're the villain, I'm the good guy. And it's like we're never getting anything done. And so if we can start to shift to the place of being curious and listen more, like my mother used to say, stop broadcasting and start tuning in. Yeah, that's an important lesson, you know. Um, the more I can listen to people, the more I hear what matters to them. And sometimes I see the humanity of them in a way that I wouldn't if I had just stayed rooted in what I feel is right. Right. Do you think that's a an issue of identity? I think there's a lot of layers to it. Like I don't think we can I don't think we could narrow it down to just one specific thing.

SPEAKER_04 42:12

But but I I I put it in the in the sense of like a box, right? So I mean politics, the problem.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yeah, we won't go into that minefield. Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

But but but when you make it your identity, then you're then when when it's when it comes across as someone disagreeing with the concept or the party or whatever, then you you because it's your identity, they're disagreeing with you.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Well, and so here's where I think I would push back on that. If that's how you're holding it, then your ego is having the conversation. Right. Right now, somebody can, I have my values and my beliefs. Yeah, yeah. Right. If someone has a very different view, again, if they're willing to be respectful in the conversation, I'm willing to engage in the conversation. But if all they want to do is make me wrong because of who I am and that identity that you're talking about, then it doesn't matter what I do. But I think if if I'm so rooted in I can't hear somebody criticize my beliefs, um, like I think you need to do some work because we all have work to do, and none of us are absolutely right. And so I think that's where the people that I see that can have the healthiest conversations are willing to go, okay, I don't agree with what that person's saying. And even though it feels like what they're saying is a personal attack on me, it might not be. Much like you were talking about before, sometimes it's that fear response they have.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Their identity is being threatened. And so they may go to that fight or flight response and lash out. And so somebody's got to take a breath and go, let's let some of the air out of this situation.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Right. And when you take it to parenting, and it goes before a lot of things, but when I say that box, right, it's it's that it's that feeling or that conversation really that that you have with yourself of like, this is how I was brought up. This is all I know, so this is what I do. Right. So now your identity is that box, whatever that box was. Exactly. Yep, right? Yep. And and then growth, I mean, it almost can't happen.

SPEAKER_02 44:11

Right. Because we have to be willing to let that box be opened up and expanded. Right. Right. Like I know when I went off to college, it was a very different experience for me, right? I was in a different part of the world, and so I had to live a different experience. Now I was still me, but I think if we are open to new experiences and new ideas, doesn't mean again that we have to buy into them and believe them. Yeah, I think that's the important thing. It's about getting out of our comfort zones. If we're only willing to do the things that we've always done, like that's just that's just not gonna solve anything.

SPEAKER_04 44:42

I guess I I think the question or the the word identity, I put it to like we're like my identity is being a father. That's that's what it is, right? But then it also it's also a learner. If I can put that identity there, right, then the only thing I could do is go learn because that's my identity. Right. Right. But that's not necessarily the case for me. I'd like if I I I I'm here to be this this man that my wife and my daughters need. That's what I want. I'm a man of service. I want to serve them. And I'm also, I think you said this earlier, and also I'm a learner. And also I work here. And it's like I I try not to put the box around it. And what I've seen issues, particularly with men and their daughters, from now from being able to talk to men is that it almost feels like we close that box up.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

Right. And it's like, um, the easiest way to say this is like when you talk to someone who I don't know, it's like that one jerk at work, and and you're like, you don't have to be a jerk, man. It's like, ah, that's the way I am. Like, yeah. But you don't have to. They're choosing that, right? Yeah. Yeah. So you you close you close that box, and that identity doesn't allow you to do anything else.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:07

Um, I think it goes on to politics and all the other things. Um, I've been asked to uh comment on politics, and I'm like, nah, that's not no, that's not my identity. I don't identify with one side or the other. I want to have a conversation, I want to think through things and um discern through information, right? Like I don't identify this way, right? And so that's where I guess I was going with that is when we're looking at fatherhood, you know, I guess you know, in a way, I'm my identity is a girl dad. That's just who I am.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Well, here's the thing I think we often simplify and we want to put a label on someone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But just like you said, you are that, and you're so many other things. Yeah. So, yes, you can have that label of father, but you just said you're also a learner, you serve people. Like there's so many things, but what we often do is we just focus on the one label that feels convenient for us, and we forget that there's so much more in that person, too. And for me, that's why I think it's important. And again, I don't always get it right. I try. But for me, sometimes it's like going back to again, I'm a big believer in curiosity. How do I get curious beyond just what I've already assumed about the person? You know, people here, former Marine, veteran. Um, I worked in construction when I got out of the Marine Corps. And so they already have a presumption of how I'm gonna show up as a man. And then when I bring vulnerability, they're like they don't know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:34

Because they've already put me in a box of how I will show up. And so that's why for me, I really encourage people to go beyond the assumptions you have, get curious about that person, because we see this much of their life, right, and it's this massive thing.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Absolutely. And especially with social media.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

I mean, you're looking at me started highlight reel of that 30-second video you put on whatever program you use or channel you use, and it's like, but we don't see the other 24 hours and 59 and a half minutes, and like where your your stuff is just an S-storm, right? Like just trying to figure it out as you go.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

When we're talking about all this, it it brings to mind like we talked, we you said the word ego, right? And I happen to believe that that is a big hurdle that some men have to have.

SPEAKER_00 48:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Uh, excuse me, have to jump over, kick down, what have you. I want to believe that now being the only male in my house of four women, two female dogs. Um you aren't messing around, my man. You're just doing it. I feel like that it's kind of gone. Not gone. Ego, we know, again, we can't put it in a box, right? Ego drive makes you drive forward to things and do things, and it's good, but it can take over. With your experience talking to men, with your experience with your daughter, at what point do you think ego has to be completely subdued in order to start the real learning process of fatherhood?

SPEAKER_02 49:13

I I mean, I it honestly, the sooner you learn that lesson and you accept it, yeah, you know, that's it. You know, it's like again, I love the movie The Matrix. To me, the line comes up like there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path, right? That Morpheus says to Neil. And I don't know, like I can't pinpoint the moment it happened. It probably happened in degrees as well. Like it wasn't like one day, bam, I've let go of ego because it still happens for me. I have moments where it kicks in. Like when my daughter was learning to drive last year. Now we were smart, we got her a professional to teach her. Could I have done it? Absolutely. But I also know like I sometimes can't get out of my own way.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

But where you're talking about ego, one of the one of the ego checks that I had is I remember one day we were, she was driving to school after she had her permit. And I, you know, I'd said something and I I could tell already it didn't land. Like something was off, right? And you know, my daughter, great kid, like she doesn't want to rock the boat, but I could tell someone's bother. So when we had stopped and got to where we're going, I just said, Hey, kiddo, like I think I'm not helping right now. So I said, I know you want feedback. What will help you? And she said, Papa, when I do something wrong, don't tell me. Because I probably already know it and I'm beating myself up for it. What I need to hear is when I do things right. I'm like, got it, kiddo. I said, I will do my best. I may still miss the mark sometimes. But then what that did is it allowed me to go, okay, let me re-in. And again, it's it's like typical, I want to say conditioning, but and this is a bad analogy. Please don't rake me over the close for it. But it's like training a dog. You reinforce the behavior you want to see. And so positive reinforcement is always better. And so if I say, hey, that was a great job, you did a great job keeping your speed, making that corner, that's gonna help her feel more confident. Right. Right. And so I say that because I think the more that we start to for for the fathers that are looking to be better dads. Um, so I did when I one of the best things I ever did, and I thank my wife for it, my ex-wife now, but I'll call her my wife at the time, is when when our daughter was getting ready to be born, she signed me up for this program called Boot Camp for New Dads. And it's a program that's run, they run it all over the country, and I think they're international in some places. But Greg Bishop and his wife Allison, oh my God, I will plug that forever. It was like a three-hour class. And of all the classes that my wife and I did before our daughter was born, that was hands down the best one ever. Because what it was is it was they called them veteran dads. There were guys in there with babies. Yeah. And then the rookie dads were the guys that were about to become parents, right? And they got to talk about the real stuff that you probably wouldn't talk about in front of your wife or your partner because you're worried about it. But what I saw was guys being dads. Babies were crying, diapers were changed, and they just handled it.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:50

And so I say that because if we start to let dads see examples of dads being good dads, they're gonna step up. Um, you know, one of the things that we would often talk about is gatekeeping, because mothers would sometimes feel like they know how to do it. Now, I'm pretty sure they don't have the instruction book either. But it makes it look easy though. Yeah, but well, but but we don't know what they're struggling with either. We also run a bootcamp for new moms class, by the way. Um, but the problem is we don't often have those conversations. And so one of the beautiful things is when my daughter was born, my ex or my wife had a c-section. And so I had to step up and do a lot more right away. Now, I don't wish a C-section on anybody, right? But I'm glad it happened because I changed most of the diapers for that first few weeks. Um I was doing a lot of the feedings, not because my wife didn't want to, but because she wasn't physically able to. She was recovering from major surgery. And so I think that really helped me step in and go, okay, like I can do this. And I and I share that because for the dads that are out there wondering, Am I doing a good job? Like, jump in and do it. Right. Like, there's no one right perfect way. And anybody who's gonna tell you how to parent your child that isn't your partner can go on sand. Like, I got less like words for them than that.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

But you're trying to figure it out too, you know? And so, like, get in and do it. And and that's why, like, when I see a dad out with his kid, I say, Hey, great work, dad. I don't know who he is, I don't know what he's doing, but I want to let him know, good job, dad. Like, kid's not dying, you're out there doing it. Like, we need to hear that too. But we often tell moms you're doing a great job, but the dads don't hear it as often. So tell that dad, good work, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

In in to that point, I mean, a lot of times you think, oh, he's you must be babysitting. It's like, don't even have started about that.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

Yeah. So there was there was a dad 2.0 summit that I used to go to, and one year I got one, and they this, and I can't remember who it was. Uh that I should know, but they they had these shirts that said it's not babysitting, it's parenting, or it's fatherhood, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:43

And I had the shirt on when I was traveling once. And this woman, I was buying like some food for us as we were traveling, and she said, What do you mean it's not babysitting? And I was like, I was already a little rather. This is when I was a little less willing to be generous about people not saying I'm a dad. Right. But I just said, Do you have kids? And she said, Yes. I said, So if you're watching your kids, is that is that babysitting? She goes, No. And she was all offended. I said, So why is you watching your kids not babysitting? But if I'm watching mine, it is. And she was like, Oh. Right. And I think that's it, though, because again, if you look at the way m fatherhood is often portrayed in the media, yeah, we are like we're the babysitter. We don't look at fathers as that, as that responsible parent. And so the more we have these conversations and say, Dads, like you have every right to step up and just as much responsibility, yeah. You know, the more they're willing to do it, the more they see it, the more they can go, oh, I can do that.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

Media aside, because I think the answer on that one is no. Um do you think we're getting better?

SPEAKER_02 54:44

So yes is the short answer. And I don't think it's as fast as I'd like it to be. I mean, obviously. But I even think back several years ago. I remember there was a commercial uh in the Super Bowl, and I think it was was it Cheerios? It was something, but it was all these like the only lines were it was a bunch of like girls saying dad. But it was all these different expressions. Like one, like you could tell she was excited, one she was sad, like there was all the one was playing with a little kid.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:08

But you started seeing more ads where dads were being actively involved and engaged, and they weren't portrayed as just that bumbling idiot. And like the fact that you have this podcast, the fact that I have a podcast called The Vulnerable Man, 20 years ago, I don't know that it would have existed or that people would have been listening. So I think we're making progress. And I will come back to the media because you look at some of the way men are portrayed as fathers and it's shifting. It's still not where it needs to be, but I think we are making progress. And I think what's important is it's not just men having the conversation, but it's having conversation with the women in our lives. Yeah. Because they're also conditioned to some degree on what a man is. Right. Right. And so it's like it's a it's a conversation that needs to be had from both sides.

SPEAKER_04 55:53

Yeah. Chris, brother, well, again, like we did at your show. We could probably sit here.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

We can go on for days. Like, I mean, yeah, we're just getting started, but yeah, yeah. So we're gonna have to do a part two, guys. All right, hey, I'm on game. I'll I always love having a conversation with you, Oscar.

SPEAKER_04 56:07

Hey, listen, it's uh it's great to have you on because not only are you in this phase of life with your daughter that I'm entering, so I have like a hang in there, my man. Strap uh it's you know, it's changing the narrative is important, right? Like absolutely we've we've talked about this before where I still get it, it's normal. They'll be like, oh, yeah, girls, oh man, it's gonna be bad, right? And and for a while it was like, oh yeah, it's gonna be bad, you know? But now I'm like, now we're good. Right. Like we're good, and and I'm not saying that we are good, I mean it's it's a work in progress just like anybody else. But the narrative is important, the narrative that we give to ourselves is important, and and most importantly, I think the narrative that men give to other men is important. And even if it's weirdly said to say even if we are giving permission to other men to do these things by having these conversations, then so be it.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Right.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

But to your point, to see another dude struggling with his kid, doing the thing they need to do, and and then just doing it. Right, right. Like, we don't often give that dude any credit.

SPEAKER_00 57:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 57:26

Um I have gotten into the habit, when especially when I travel, of if I have a sticker or whatever, like, hey man, here you go. Like, good luck. You know what I mean? Like, I've been there, I know what you're doing. But I I I think the narrative is important, and I think the narrative is starting to shift a little bit. I think dads want to be more present. And there was this a study uh that came from um I can't remember the name of it, so I'm not gonna say it uh online. Uh reputable research center saying that that dads feel like they're not spending enough time and want to be more present now. So I think that I think it's shifting, right? And once we figure this out and uh society, I guess, gets on board, we'll we'll have a little bit easier way about it. But I I still think that what what you're doing with the Vormal Man podcast and talking to them, putting information out, creating that community that you've done so well is just so important. And I can't thank you enough for doing that. And then I can't thank you enough for coming over here, hanging out with us, and spending time with the daughter community, man.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

Yeah, well, thank you again. You know, I know when I reach out to you and I'm like, man, I hope this guy wants to come on the show, but you know, I'm reaching out and like want to talk about vulnerability. I think, as you're saying, the more we have these kind of conversations, the more it normalizes it. So thank you for letting me be in this conversation. And thank you for meeting me in it too, right? Like, I love that we can have this conversation. There's some things we agree, we may disagree, but what I hear in both of us is we're committed to being a great dad for our daughters. And that's the most important thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Like it's not about we've got to be perfect. My daughter isn't gonna remember every time I messed up. What she's gonna remember is the times that I was there for her, right? Now she'll remember some of the times I screwed up. Oh, yeah. But you know, the overarching message is like, how did my dad show up for me? And so I really say that to encourage all those dads out there are like, keep showing up. It's not about being perfect, but like get up and get in the fight because that's what's gonna matter. You know, in the long run, we only have a limited amount of time. Like the sad truth is I got about a year and a half before my daughter goes off to college. And it's like, I don't even want to think about that, but like I'm excited for and I'm also sad. So cherish the moments. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got when I was a uh my daughter was young is never miss a chance to hold their hand because there will come a day where they won't want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 59:50

And so, you know, cherish the moments and have these conversations, right? Keep it up. So, yes, thank you, my man. Like, I'm grateful for you creating this podcast and helping girl dads like feel a little more comfortable and confident in what they're doing too. And, you know, we'll keep having these conversations. And the more men we bring in, the more difference we make.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

Absolutely, brother. Thank you so much, guys. We're gonna keep flying this plane as long as it goes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

As good as we fly it. Yep. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:15

We'll keep putting it together as uh as we hit turbulence and uh we'll get through it. We're gonna have all of Chris's links in the show notes so you'll be able to find them uh for his show. If you guys go to my pod role, you'll see his show. Um, go there. I'm telling you, you won't regret it. Um, in the meantime, guys, keep flying your plane, keep listening, keep watching the show. Thank you for your guys' support. And if I can ask anything of y'all is to keep supporting the podcast so that we can continue doing the work that we're doing. Until next time, we'll see you all later.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:47

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