Echoes of Baghdad: Family, War, and the Satellite Phone That Bridged Lives After Tragedy

In this very personal episode of Arabs in Media, I return to Iraq, the country of my heritage, from the home in Baghdad where my father grew up, to sit down with my cousin Ahmed for a conversation that is was as unplanned as it was inspiring. Together, we unpack a story that intertwines family, grief, and acts of service in the midst of bombing.

In 2003, on the cusp of the US-led invasion on Iraq, Ahmed’s life was forever changed, not only from the drums of war beating louder each day, but with a tragedy born from efforts to protect his family.

Hours later, with a satellite phone in hand, Ahmed became an unintentional lifeline for countless families around the world who had been passed his number as one of the only ways to check to see if their family was dead or alive. 

Steeped in the history of our family home, the Tigris River, and of Baghdad itself—we reflect on the legacy left by our ancestors. It's a story about the weight of loss, the resilience of the Iraqi people, and the power of human connection among family and strangers alike. 

Echoes of Baghdad marks the beginning of Season Two of Arabs in Media, with an intimate look at Iraq through the lens of family, history, and resilience. Listen on all podcast platforms, and subscribe to Arabs in Media on Substack to comment and learn more about Ahmed's story. 

📸 Learn more about the home, now a center for art, culture, music and more: @AlWattar.Heritage.House

📩 Subscribe to Arabs in Media to comment, engage, and learn more about Ahmed's story and the A.I.M. community.

Share this episode, leave a review, and join the conversation. Support independent content creation and the stories you won't hear anywhere else.

About the host:

Hazem Jamal is a first-generation Iraqi-American who worked in as a programming exec in American radio for many years.

Hazem founded Arabs in Media to offer an independent platform for new stories, information and entertainment missing in corporate media.

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Transcript

AhmedPodcastIraq - 2:5:25, 12.35 PM

[00:00:00] Hazem Jamal: Hi, it's Hasem Jamal from Arabs and Media. This episode was recorded in Baghdad. I just got back from Baghdad from Iraq. And the story you're going to hear has been personally important to me for a number of reasons and for a number of years. First, because it's not only about my cousin's experience during the Iraq war in 2003.

[00:00:23] Hazem Jamal: But it's about how a family tragedy helped shape what my cousin did next to cope with the loss, helping dozens of families in the process. In our talk, there were some great lessons on life, some laughs, and even an unexpected interruption related to the many wars on Iraq. Please subscribe and share the podcast to help support independent content like Arabs in Media.

[00:00:47] Hazem Jamal: And check out my substack as well, Arabs in Media. And now from Baghdad. Let's listen. 

[00:00:53] Ahmed: I'm happy and ready. Okay. 

[00:00:57] Hazem Jamal: Welcome to Arabs and Media. I'm Hassam Jamal [00:01:00] and I'm with Ahmed. Are we telling people the nature of us being family? Why not? Huh? Yeah. Ahmed is my cousin and we are live in Baghdad and we're excited to be here where it all started.

[00:01:20] Hazem Jamal: Not only the cradle of civilization, but where our family got its start. You've got a whole history of stories. 

[00:01:28] Ahmed: Each one of us, I guess, has his own story to tell, yeah, as he has been through good and bad times that accumulate stories as years 

[00:01:38] Hazem Jamal: go by. . So, uh, for those who have read on some of the substacks, some of the family background, .

[00:01:47] Hazem Jamal: I haven't necessarily put names to all of it. , so we are actually in a room that, uh, my father spent quite a bit of time [00:02:00] in and your father growing up. This is actually the house where they were raised. , quite a lot of history to be summing up in one place. 

[00:02:10] Ahmed: Yeah. , the grandfather, grandfather bought this house in 1945, and that's when the family moved in.

[00:02:21] Ahmed: And, uh, as you know, it's by the Tigris River in Baghdad. So it's a very unique, uh, location that he was very proud and loved so much. 

[00:02:36] Hazem Jamal: Do you remember our grandfather? 

[00:02:40] Ahmed: I was three years old when he passed away, so I don't quite remember him, but I have a couple of pictures that of that time that I had spent some time with him.

[00:02:51] Ahmed: I know that, but I do not recall it now. Yeah, I 

[00:02:55] Hazem Jamal: never get a chance to meet him. 

[00:02:56] Ahmed: Yeah, unfortunately. Yeah. Uh, he passed [00:03:00] away, uh, quite young compared to, uh, his age and, uh, I mean, that time. And, uh, as you well know, thank God, our parents have, uh, had a good, uh, years to live and hopefully many more. But, uh, compared to their father, there's, there was a, I mean, he died quite young, uh, compared to their age.

[00:03:31] Hazem Jamal: Yes, certainly by today's standards, but also it seems like then he was very young. 

[00:03:38] Ahmed: Right. Uh, but he left a good legacy, uh, of, of sons and daughters who carried on his name and hopefully grandchildren and whoever is going to come after us with the, keep his name up. Yeah. A family name, uh, 

[00:03:57] Hazem Jamal: all together up.[00:04:00] 

[00:04:00] Hazem Jamal: Now, one of the things that I've known about him was, uh, he spoke many languages and this is something that, uh, I think genetically he must have passed on to you. 

[00:04:11] Ahmed: That 

[00:04:11] Hazem Jamal: is correct. 

[00:04:12] Ahmed: He spoke, as I understood, uh, he spoke about six languages, four or five or six languages. And, uh, this is something I guess it is in the genes because I.

[00:04:23] Ahmed: You know, after two generations, I speak also six languages, and I speak them well. Uh, I love languages. It's something that, you know, I don't study. It's just, uh, you, uh, interact with people and, uh, certain stages of life and, uh, you, you pick up the language. I pick up the language, uh, rather easily. So definitely it's in the genes, probably.

[00:04:49] Hazem Jamal: Well, the, one of the things that is remarkable about your command of the English language is that it is not just grammatically solid, [00:05:00] but your depth of vocabulary, it's almost poetic. Times that you and I have been catching up in the last Uh, day only, you know, it's just, I think it's the way your brain works is that you are like spewing out poetry.

[00:05:15] Hazem Jamal: Sometimes you don't even know it. 

[00:05:17] Ahmed: Yeah, I guess it, it is, has, it has to do with the way our brains, uh, I mean, languages, maybe some part of the brain is responsible for doing that. And in some people they. can master it easier than, than others. 

[00:05:33] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. 

[00:05:33] Ahmed: Especially at younger age. I mean, uh, I always said I want, I have two more languages I want to learn.

[00:05:39] Ahmed: Well, currently I speak for sure, uh, English, Arabic, Spanish, Italian. Turkish and Kurdish. And I always said, before I die, I want to learn, uh, uh, German and French, uh, to complete the picture. Yeah. Not getting a chance to do that. You know, we [00:06:00] got, uh, a bit, uh, older. Our time is, uh, uh, Scarce, but, uh, hopefully when I retire, I will have time to do that.

[00:06:10] Hazem Jamal: There you go. All you need is an EU passport after that because then you can just prove, Hey, I learned the language. 

[00:06:16] Ahmed: No, no, the Iraqi passport would do fine. But, uh, maybe we need the Uh, the quickest way to learn a language is to, to, uh, to get, uh, to meet a girl from that, uh, language and that's how we learned the others.

[00:06:31] Ahmed: And, uh, I think this would do the job quite well. 

[00:06:35] Hazem Jamal: Many years ago, I met a woman, uh, through a friend, uh, as a friend and we were all, um, Under meeting each other for the first time, she was in a relationship with a man from Turkey and they were both in a symphony orchestra and they both played together and they fell madly in love and, um, but [00:07:00] he spoke very little English and she spoke zero Turkish, but they had this like intense relationship.

[00:07:07] Hazem Jamal: And years later I was, um, It's called pillow language. 

Ha, ha, 

[00:07:12] Hazem Jamal: ha. Years later, um, I was going to be driving through her area where she was living and our mutual friend said, Oh, you must look her up. And I said, Well, I really don't know her. I only met her once. And he, he said, No, no, no. You met her. So you know her nature.

[00:07:30] Hazem Jamal: She's going to be very welcoming. And so I actually In the middle of Alabama now, I, uh, called from a payphone while I was getting gas and a little bit of food. And she said, well, I insist you come over for coffee. And I said, well, I really have three more hours to drive and I'm on my way to Louisiana and this and that.

[00:07:48] Hazem Jamal: And she said, I won't take no for an answer. And, um, so we caught up and she said, oh yeah, uh, you know, forgot the guy's name, the Turkish guy. We broke [00:08:00] up. She goes. As he learned more English, I realized we had nothing in common. Once we were able to communicate, I didn't want any part of it. It would have been better off without this communication.

[00:08:17] Hazem Jamal: But that's, wonderful that you had an appreciation and a love for languages and a love for culture. And I think it's one of the reasons that, you've had. Um, so much richness in life, I think in terms of your experiences, I know there for a period of time you were studying in America and we, we didn't spend as much time together then because I was away in college, uh, and you were.

[00:08:46] Hazem Jamal: In the Chicago area with my folks and, um, yeah, we're among all of our cousins. I think we're the closest in age. 

[00:08:53] Ahmed: That's good. 

[00:08:54] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. 

[00:08:54] Ahmed: Yeah. 

[00:08:54] Hazem Jamal: So you are, 

[00:08:55] Ahmed: you're, you're a bit, bit older than that. Just a few months. Yeah. 

[00:08:58] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. But we were [00:09:00] born within a year of each other. So we've had all of these family stories between us over the years.

[00:09:07] Hazem Jamal: . You know, from my perspective, we've been not only divided by distance, but divided by wars, not that we're on the opposite side of wars, but that we are physically separate by wars, multiple wars over our lifetimes.

[00:09:24] Ahmed: And wars, when you're saying separate by wars, separation doesn't have to be Uh, as you said physically, but, uh, you know, even, you know, when you're cut off, uh, completely shut off from your family, whether both ways, I mean, if you're in Iraq and you're wondering about your family news outside or the people outside wondering about their news inside.

[00:09:49] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. 

[00:09:50] Ahmed: Uh, it's a very, , tough experience to go through. And I don't think many people. around the world have gone through as much as Iraqis have gone through because of the [00:10:00] several war within our generation, you know, maybe Other people in more stable countries have gone, their grandfather has gone through a war, right?

[00:10:12] Ahmed: Sometime. Right. But for our generation, uh, we've been through several wars, uh, and hopefully this would be the last of it. Uh, hopefully future, we won't have our, uh, succeeds, would not have to go through that 

[00:10:29] Hazem Jamal: anymore. 

[00:10:30] Ahmed: Um, 

[00:10:31] Hazem Jamal: Going way back, the way we used to communicate, it was, you know, somebody in the family would write a letter because, uh, the phone was just, um, expensive.

[00:10:45] Hazem Jamal: And complicated. So we would get updates through letters or through somebody in between who is maybe living in England and would communicate that they spoke with somebody back home or vice versa. But I [00:11:00] remember specifically that, you know, to place a call from the U. S. to Iraq back in the day, you would have to schedule a phone call through the operators.

[00:11:11] Hazem Jamal: So you would place, I think what they called a station to station call. You would call the operator and say, operator, I want to place a station to station call. And you would name the date and the time and they would, uh, call a station in Iraq or wherever in the world you were trying to reach. And that operator would somehow try to communicate to the household that we wanted to communicate with to schedule it at the same time.

[00:11:40] Hazem Jamal: And those phone calls, I remember everybody talks really loud, just like the movies, the phone lines weren't as crystal clear, you know, you could literally hear the little beeps and clicks in the phone call and you'd sometimes miss a word or something like that.

[00:11:54] Ahmed: Probably. Usually it was recorded somewhere. Somebody was listening also on the conversation. So [00:12:00] you had that interference, you know, probably with the, especially if One's calling the U. S. or somebody's calling you from the U. S. or you're calling the U. S. or Europe and even so that also maybe was part of the yelling part that, uh, he needed to, uh, make sure somebody, I mean, the family is listening to you.

[00:12:23] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. And that probably went both ways. Let's not think that the developed world is so innocent and everything is freedom and liberty. They, uh, they had their ears on everything as well. I'm sure, um, now in the midst of this, speaking of phone calls, one of, um, one of my strongest images in my mind and memories of a phone call between us Was after the second war on Iraq.

[00:12:58] Hazem Jamal: Uh, [00:13:00] so, um, so this was after, uh, Bush called Iraq being one of its enemies. I, I always like joke around about this, um, term. He, he called it the axis of evil. I always like, what, what is it called again? The triangle of terror. What is it? And he called it the axis of evil. And I remember watching him. On the state of the union, bring this up because it was after 9 11.

[00:13:29] Hazem Jamal: And I said, what? I screamed at my television because I knew that this was just, um, some bullshit coming. And, um, so, um, fast forward. The war had launched on Iraq after all of the Um, trumped up, uh, accusations of Iraq having weapons of mass destruction, which they didn't. And all of this stuff was, you know, years later, [00:14:00] uh, the rest of the world caught up to things that, you know, rational human beings knew.

[00:14:05] Hazem Jamal: And that was, this was war is business and shaping politics and countries to somebody else's will. Now that said, and I'm willing to edit this out if it makes you uncomfortable. This is the truth. The naked 

[00:14:21] Ahmed: truth. Yeah. The unsweetened truth. 

[00:14:26] Hazem Jamal: Right. The bitter truth. Yeah. Yeah, very much so. , as in wars, some, uh, some very bad things happen, very tragic things happen and not Yeah.

[00:14:37] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. Always the things that you expect to be happening or the way things happen. And I'll get to the phone call first. I had heard from my parents and they had been in communication, , with either you directly or your father. And they said, Ahmed has a satellite phone [00:15:00] and he's back in Baghdad in Baghdad.

[00:15:04] Hazem Jamal: And he is, , helping people find their family members. Because the word has gotten out to the Iraqi diaspora that he is there with a satellite phone. And so, of course, you know, the telecommunications were down. They were bombed. And so satellite phones were with people in governments and media, I'm sure, but not with everyday people.

[00:15:28] Hazem Jamal: And you just happened to have one because you had one. I had one through my work 

[00:15:34] Ahmed: as I was the, , the branch manager of a company that, , a large company that was operating in Baghdad, , distribution company. And, , for the work business, , for the business we are in, we need to communicate with our headquarters outside Iraq.

[00:15:52] Ahmed: And, , that's why they had, provided me with this phone that, . I was using for our business and, , to get, , [00:16:00] our loved ones, , know that we are safe and the people, we know, and we don't know, , trying to help them out to, , be able to communicate, , with their loved ones across the world. 

[00:16:11] Hazem Jamal: I immediately thought when I heard this before you and I spoke that this was amazingly kind of you, but also incredibly brave because Baghdad was actively under attack.

[00:16:27] Hazem Jamal: There were areas of the city that were being bombed and attacked and targeted. And here you were driving. From point A to point B, getting random phone calls from people who are saying, please go check on my brother. 

[00:16:46] Ahmed: Right. That's correct. And it was, , something that, uh, you know, I've been through.

[00:16:53] Ahmed: I know I've been through, , Other words, that I was away from Iraq. This was the first war that I was in Iraq [00:17:00] and the previous wars, my family had sent me out, , uh, to the England first and then to the States to complete my studies and to stay away from war, but it was, , very difficult for me to, to, , to have certain times of fear.

[00:17:16] Ahmed: Sometimes I could not reach them for any reason. Uh, so it, I know I, I was, I had gone through that feeling of being away and, , worrying about my family back home and not knowing anything about them. And, and, , in Iraq, anything can go wrong, anything at any time. Uh, so it's, it's more difficult, you know, , to have this worry to live with.

[00:17:45] Ahmed: And that's why I, you know, I, it was for me, , something I just felt I had to do as much as possible day and night traveling around, , , with people who sometimes I got strange, um, people I don't know, strangers who heard of [00:18:00] that I have this phone and, , that they can reach somebody on the ground and that they were asking to kindly go and, , And check on their family and give me the address because there was no mobile phones, no land phones, no communication whatsoever on the ground.

[00:18:16] Ahmed: And, um, and that's, that's where I, uh, I stepped in to help as much as possible. Some other uses, um, entities called trying to help, um, hospitals, for example. As I told you, uh, people were from outside trying to Send any help that is needed, and, uh, I visited a particular hospital that, uh, uh, needed a generator set, and, uh, that's what they informed them.

[00:18:49] Ahmed: They transferred the cash, and we bought the generator and sent it to them. So, it was difficult times on all levels. This was a, uh, a [00:19:00] hospital that belonged to church, and, uh, even, uh, Entities at that level had problems communicating with outside world and with, uh, providing essentials, you know, a generator set when there's no electricity.

[00:19:14] Ahmed: This is the main thing that the most important thing that is needed in a hospital, right? 

[00:19:20] Hazem Jamal: Right. This, war had just started. This is the second war on Iraq. I know the first one was called the Gulf War, the Persian Gulf War, the Who knows what the official name was, but this was George W. Bush's war on Iraq with his coalition of Britain.

[00:19:40] Hazem Jamal: And I mentioned the communications were down and so you were providing this service. But , this isn't what you anticipated doing because you were originally going to be out of the country anyway, and it didn't happen that way. [00:20:00] 

[00:20:01] Ahmed: Yes, we were, we had been outside. We went with my family, close family, uh, to Jordan because in the war, the drums were rolling and, , war drums were rolling and we were We didn't know what was going to happen.

[00:20:19] Ahmed: We didn't know if there was, you know, it was, uh, a nuclear bomb that will be thrown at Baghdad or chemical or whatever. I mean, nobody knew what was coming. , we just knew that it's, , big armies , are moving to, to attack Iraq. So we decided that we need to take a trip to, , to Jordan to stay away from the war.

[00:20:45] Ahmed: , but unfortunately we were, , we had a, an accident there and, , as you well know, my, uh, my son Haiduri, uh, fell from the hotel room we were staying in, and [00:21:00] which was a big disaster in our lives. And, uh, so we, uh, at that time there was no flights, uh, to Baghdad. We drove back, uh, And, uh, the, uh, uh, you know, we buried him and went through that and, uh, the newspapers at the time, uh, wrote about this incident.

[00:21:23] Ahmed: It was still in, uh, uh, Saddam time and the newspapers wrote that, uh, an Iraqi family had such an accident and that. We have a saying in Arabic, saying that, , uh, death would come to you even if you were in a tall, , uh, meaning buildings or high, high buildings, meaning, uh,

[00:21:48] Ahmed: Uh, meaning death knows no location or place to, to come. So we are believers. We believe in God and His will, and, uh, we thank [00:22:00] Him for, for His will, whatever it is, even the death of, of my loved one, Haiduri. We still thank God for that, and this is what, , uh, we are brought up to, to believe in God and to believe in His will.

[00:22:15] Ahmed: And, , we went through that. It was very difficult. We still, uh, we don't consider and we still feel that he's, he's with us somehow, somewhere. And we're, uh, hoping, even the day we would pass, we would be happy , to join him somewhere , and see him. 

[00:22:36] Hazem Jamal: You, , told me a, an expression or a saying or a story about how Haideri was, was your angel.

Yeah. 

[00:22:46] Hazem Jamal: Tell me how the expression worked again or or how it is framed. He was different and is an angel here. 

[00:22:55] Ahmed: Yeah. Well, Haider, since he was born, , [00:23:00] uh, the naming, uh, Haider, uh, It was chosen by his mother, and, , , she had a dream, actually, at that time, , we are, you know, uh, a family, , , Iraq has this, , , , sects in Islam, uh, we are, there are Sunnis, Shias, others.

[00:23:23] Ahmed: And me and, uh, uh, and my wife are from different sects. She's a Kurd, Sunni Kurd, I'm a Shiite Arab, and there's no difference between, for this. But she had a dream of, uh, uh, at the time, King Hussein coming to her. 

[00:23:44] Hazem Jamal: And that right there was when the power went out, literally. We were at the house. Where my father grew up having a very personal conversation and the electricity went out and, uh, we [00:24:00] took a minute, took a beep when the power came back on, we picked right back up and this is where things started again.

[00:24:08] Hazem Jamal: That's a crazy place to stop, huh? Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Okay, so we're, we're, uh, picking up where we left off. We actually had a power outage. , which is still one of the hallmarks of, , I think the leftovers of all the wars here, infrastructure is still a challenge. Every time I've come back though, I have to say things are improving, the construction is going, and things look and feel better.

[00:24:37] Hazem Jamal: What is your take on that before we jump back into the story? 

[00:24:40] Ahmed: Yes, as you said, yes, it's, , there are things that are very apparent to the to the eyes of visitors of Baghdad, , from trip to trip, , from year to year, uh, especially in the past couple of years, there has been, , big improvements in, , in buildings, , complexes, large [00:25:00] complexes of buildings of high standard or good standard.

[00:25:05] Ahmed: And, , there are still, , Other, , matters of infrastructure that are still problematic, like electricity, sometimes, , very few times water, sewage, other things that are also infrastructure, important infrastructure. Those are, , I know that they've been working on these matters, but the problems are very large and from many years back, and it's even since.

[00:25:36] Ahmed: , Saddam time, we had problems with electricity. So this is, has accumulated or has multiplied, , because since the, , change , of, , Saddam, there has been a big use of electricity multiplied by maybe a hundred times, maybe more. The usage of electricity, , the [00:26:00] equipment that was, that come in. , importation was open totally.

[00:26:04] Ahmed: It was very limited. , not every house had AC at that time. Now, each house has maybe five or more ACs, a small house. Right. So, things have changed, , multiple times. , the consumption has changed. And so whatever , , the planned increases of electricity supplies, still the demand , is much more than whatever is being produced.

[00:26:30] Hazem Jamal: Sure. It must be really hard to future proof the needs of a country that is advancing while technology is advancing and you almost can't keep up with it. It's almost like when you build a highway in L. A. by the time you finish building the highway. It's not enough for what traffic is today. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:26:50] Hazem Jamal: So. 

[00:26:51] Ahmed: And this is exactly what's happening, , here. And, , but there are mega, , the, the positive thing is that there are mega [00:27:00] plans that are being done. , and implement it, actually, not only plans, and there's, plans of improving traffic, improving, , maybe, a metro or something like that. Also, a flyover metro, not underground, perhaps.

[00:27:18] Ahmed: , that would improve greatly the traffic and the problems of congestion in Baghdad today. 

[00:27:24] Hazem Jamal: Maybe the Olympics? The thing is possible. No, anything is possible. That's right. Yeah. 

[00:27:31] Ahmed: You know, once you are, you have , a safe, uh, atmosphere. 

Yeah. 

[00:27:37] Ahmed: And, , , people in in Iraq generally are very hospitable and they welcome, , greatly and love, , people visiting them.

[00:27:47] Ahmed: And, , we've had, , , last year, I think it was, we had, , one large, , gulf, , , tournament that was done in Basra. And that was very successful. And people who came [00:28:00] from across the Arab world were very happy to be here and, , to be in Basra, which is, , , third largest city in Iraq, so Baghdad would be even, , they, I think, would have loved it even more.

[00:28:14] Ahmed: Mm. Mm. But, the world is a small, , village at the end, so you never know how things would turn in which direction. 

[00:28:23] Hazem Jamal: There are things that, , we don't anticipate or imagine, and it's not a failure of imagination as much as it might be that we're just so tuned into our day to day, we're busy, we're occupied, our minds are focused on things, and then it takes us by surprise when something happens that we didn't anticipate.

[00:28:43] Hazem Jamal: And I feel very inelegant. Bringing us back to the conversation where we were, because it was a very touching story, the power went out, , but, , your son [00:29:00] Haider, , who was with your family, you all went to Jordan, , to try to get out of the eye of the storm until the initial first passing of understanding just how intense or dangerous this war was going to be for your family, tragically, the.

[00:29:19] Hazem Jamal: Died in an accident when you got to Amman and, , for a little bit of, , cultural background for those who aren't familiar in both Islam and in Judaism, you are to bury the body within 24 hours. So just on the cusp of having gotten out of danger, this tragedy happens and you all didn't even make the decision.

[00:29:42] Hazem Jamal: You just impulsively went back in and buried your son. That is correct in the Family plot, 

[00:29:52] Ahmed: family plot in Nja. And, , , he's, as I told, I was telling you, I, I really [00:30:00] feel that he's around us somewhere. I, people tend to, when they ask me how many kids to have, I always mention him because he's part of the family will always be.

[00:30:12] Ahmed: And, , he's not with us. Maybe he's in a better place, hopefully. And, , as I was telling you, uh, earlier, I think with him, uh, part, as there's a saying that, uh, or maybe they say it, uh, that part of your heart dies, died with him, uh, and when you say, uh, we have a dead heart or whatever. Uh, it means you are, you don't care about events so much that might scare a normal person or, uh, say, ah, I have to hajj, I have to, uh, be out of the danger and, uh, so on.

[00:30:50] Ahmed: No longer this is the case with, with me because for me, when you lose, uh, you know, such a, an important part of your [00:31:00] life, uh, life has, um, you know, you live your life and then you continue away. We're blessed to have Meera, my daughter, who came after Haider passed away. But, uh, for me personally, I feel really that, , nothing in this world would scare me.

[00:31:22] Hazem Jamal: And she, of course, also, uh, was a wonderful addition to your other son, Fouad. Hmm. Haider's brother. Yes. And that, that I'm sure has been very important to both. 

[00:31:36] Ahmed: Yes. 

[00:31:36] Hazem Jamal: And Maya 

[00:31:36] Ahmed: also. Maya is the oldest daughter, yes, and, , they're all, uh, blessings that we have in our life. And we You know, you always look at the, , full part of the glass and that's what we, even though you go through big dramas in your life, you still, , look at the other blessings that God is giving us every day and [00:32:00] every minute.

[00:32:00] Ahmed: And, uh, uh, you know, we have good health. We are, thank God, nobody's knocking on your door asking for. Something that you cannot give him. And, uh, that's a lot to thank God for.

[00:32:17] Hazem Jamal: And I, as I can maybe obher one of the things we would call it in the West, a coping mechanism. But, just after this very unexpected event, that was when you were after the start of the war driving through Baghdad with a With the satellite phone helping other people find their family members.

[00:32:43] Ahmed: Yes, it was like, um, you know, uh,

[00:32:48] Ahmed: God directed me in a way to help these people around us in Baghdad or even the world. As I told you, I've been [00:33:00] through that, being completely shut off when I was in the U. S. And, uh, there are times that you're completely shut off from your family. And that is a very horrifying feeling for both sides.

[00:33:14] Ahmed: People inside worrying about the people outside, and they're worried about them. You know, the mother is worried that, Oh, my son is In the States, for example, and he's now very worried about him. They might be safe. The people in Baghdad, for example, they might be. Uh, you know, no war or, or damages around them, but still there's worried about the person outside and how what's going through their mind and their, their worry for, for his family, his or her family.

[00:33:47] Hazem Jamal: It's true. And just imagine not having that family connection. I always think of a memory that even if I couldn't ever find the photograph of us mm-hmm . It [00:34:00] was when we were swimming in the Tigris River. Yeah. 

[00:34:05] Ahmed: Covered with the, covered with mud. Covered in mud, enjoying every second of it. Yeah. And, and this is.

[00:34:12] Ahmed: It's a picture, but it's a picture, as they say, worth a thousand words. Uh, you know, it's, uh, this was us and our extended cousins. We had Zaynab with us saying, I think also, and, uh, it's something that is just stuck in memory of pleasant times of childhood. 

[00:34:33] Hazem Jamal: Yeah, it kind of summed it all up. It was like a moment in time.

[00:34:37] Hazem Jamal: And, uh, we were. You know, swimming on the banks of this little sandbar in the middle of the river. And it was very muddy and just like all of a sudden we all started taking ourselves with mud and because it was summer and it was so hot, the mud would dry instantly and [00:35:00] you almost like a frozen statue at that point.

[00:35:03] Hazem Jamal: You still remember that? I still remember every detail of that. Maybe 50 years ago. Yeah, at least, or somewhere around there. I'm not that old. I'm sorry. Oops. , so that was, that was, uh, A moment this time, but like, as you and I catch up on different stories, I mean, this is just one of many things that have happened, but it always really stuck with me because I remember literally the day I was at work and my mother had called me to tell me about.

[00:35:38] Hazem Jamal: What happened with Haider? And I was just so sad. And I also thought nobody here will understand this and it just felt so tragic that it wasn't something that I could help with from where I was. And it wasn't something that [00:36:00] even outside of the family was, you know, acknowledged.

[00:36:04] Hazem Jamal: We didn't have social media to be able to share something like this and maybe receive comfort from strangers or other people that we knew. And this was not my direct loss as much as it felt like a loss to our family. As a whole and to humanity, because people just in times of war, particularly in the U.

[00:36:29] Hazem Jamal: S., have always been my experience that it was just very easy to go to war because they could just diminish who we were going to war with as not being like us. 

[00:36:42] Ahmed: While as, as human beings, we are so much alike, uh, around the world. I mean, human beings are human beings. It's, , backgrounds might be different, their taste of food or [00:37:00] colors or.

[00:37:01] Ahmed: Or, , clothing might be different, but Music, yeah. Yeah. Core, , eventually humanity is, is basically the same. God created us equal, uh, one way or another, for colors and our backgrounds. Yeah. , we have here now today in Baghdad, people from around the world, , the lady we have at home, , she's from Africa, but she's so sweet and kind and human, taking care of our, , father, who's older age now and, , as a her family and her father.

[00:37:41] Ahmed: And, , I'm sure this is true around the world, , and the core of all humans, , this, uh, love for other humans is there. It's just that, , perhaps experiences that one would go through, and the bubble you were talking about, [00:38:00] different types of bubbles that people are in, that they, in a way, are forced to step away from humanity, and from these hu natural, , perhaps human feelings that we should have.

[00:38:16] Hazem Jamal: I really, , want to thank you for sharing this story. I know it's not easy, and I know, , because this podcast, this episode is audio, not video, how much it affects you. I know it's not easy. Well, it's always, 

[00:38:32] Ahmed: uh, you know, uh, this part of, of life, as the French say, c'est la vie. And we all have different things that we are written.

[00:38:47] Ahmed: And, and in our religion, we say it's, , qadr, meaning it's, it's, uh, your destiny. It's already written somewhere that you have to go through this. We believe in that [00:39:00] and we cope with that and live with that. And I think, , , it's disbelief that keep us going , and, uh, keep us kicking and trying for a better tomorrow and a better today and, , and I, , wishing our family, our loved ones to be, , , not to have to go through what we went through.

[00:39:25] Ahmed: , it was very difficult, , difficult times, wars , and losses. And we hope that they would, uh, , don't have to suffer or endure such matters anymore. 

[00:39:36] Hazem Jamal: So on that note, , and tying into a miraculous glass half full perspective on life, , one of the things we try to wrap up each episode with is a positive story or a positive recognition.

[00:39:53] Hazem Jamal: I call it the shout out. So you want to shout out this person or that book or this [00:40:00] show or that person. Whether that person is just an inspiration generally or something specific that they did. Is there anybody that you want to recognize or anything in the shoutout segment that is doing good things or is inspiring the world or inspiring you?

[00:40:17] Hazem Jamal: Uh, that's a surprise. Ha ha ha ha ha. Forgot to mention that one. Ha ha ha ha ha. 

[00:40:24] Ahmed: . It's perhaps it's not a person that, , is living now, but you still read about him and read his words and wisdom. And, , I'm not, , a religious person, but I always, , read , and, uh, and hear about, , Imam Ali and , the big deeds that he was, , , wording that he used to come up wisdom, the, that he was, , full off and was sharing continuously.

[00:40:57] Ahmed: One of the nice things that we, as a [00:41:00] family, , always my father , , tells us, , it's a saying that Imam Ali said, which is in Arabic, it says,

[00:41:10] Ahmed: Which translates to, , win your friend with, , transparency, , before you lose him with, , vagueness. Mm hmm. So, the more transparent or frank you are with your friend or family or whatever they are, , it's better than losing them with being vague. Mm hmm. , something that you, , they cannot read into you, , what's going through your mind or what's going through you.

[00:41:43] Ahmed: So the more transparent you can be, the better it is for all people around you. Even if, I mean, it could be something they don't like or , they dislike or they whatever, but still. At least you're transparent with [00:42:00] yourself , and with people around you, , and, uh, 

[00:42:03] Hazem Jamal: they don't like that, it's Right.

[00:42:06] Hazem Jamal: That's so powerful. And it's so wise. And I would add to it, and I don't know if this would go with the original saying, But it doesn't have to be unkind. In fact, I think being transparent is kindness. You don't have to make it hurtful. 

[00:42:27] Ahmed: No, not at all. Being transparent meaning that even if you're disagreeing with somebody, you can tell him that you are disagreeing with him and this is what's going through your mind.

[00:42:38] Ahmed: You don't have to say, Ah, yes, I agree with you or keep quiet and you're disagreeing with him and that's what I really believe. , being transparent is studying, but things that, , this is what my mind is telling me and , I'm free to think what I'm thinking, but this is, this is how I'm feeling and if I'm wrong, you can correct me, you can show me the way, you can tell me [00:43:00] no.

[00:43:00] Ahmed: You're not seeing the right angle of this issue. Let me show you. Come and look from this angle. Maybe you'll have a clearer picture. At least I'm telling you , what I'm feeling and what's going through my mind and how I am seeing things. So it's better than being vague and perhaps agreeing with the person that you don't.

[00:43:20] Ahmed: Agree with or just be quiet and they are thinking that you're agreeing with whatever they saying and then you're in a different ballpark. 

[00:43:31] Hazem Jamal: And Imam Ali just for a moment of levity, we were driving earlier today. in Baghdad and there was , a picture in the back of somebody's car and I was like, that looks like Jesus.

[00:43:44] Hazem Jamal: Is that Jesus? You're like, no, that's Imam Ali. I'm like, you know, if you were anywhere else in America, you'd be like, Oh, that person. Yeah. It's the same beard, similar beard and hair, like the hair, everything. I 

[00:43:58] Ahmed: think it's, it's an [00:44:00] imaginative figure, even for Christ, I mean, for Jesus, I think it's. Somewhere in history, somebody drew something that they would think how Imam Ali would look like.

[00:44:17] Ahmed: Because it's not a picture. So it's, at the end, it's a drawing. And I think, , it's a sense of this person being there. It's, , at the end, the, it's all the same God that, that we worship. And, , we believe that, , at least in Islam that this is. , We all share the same God and the, , the, , the books of God, which is, , Judaism, the Christianity and Islam, we share, , have so many things in common that we need to focus on.

[00:44:51] Ahmed: , and, , again, the full part of the whole part of the glass, there are some things that we disagree on, but at [00:45:00] least , if we agree on, , 80 or more percent of whatever is life is about, I think , that's more than one, , a man and wife would agree upon. 

[00:45:09] Hazem Jamal: Yeah. Yeah. Us. , yeah. We would always just chalk it up to, it's , Hey, what's the difference of a couple of prophets between friends where we're like pretty much aligned on everything else.

[00:45:19] Hazem Jamal: So like just chill. That's true. That's so true. , I want to thank Ahmed, my cousin. Pleasure. For being here. Pleasure. In the room where our parents grew up, our fathers, , grandfathers also grew up here, and our grandfathers. It's just, , 

[00:45:38] Ahmed: , this house has been in their possession since 1945 and it was built in 1917.

[00:45:46] Ahmed: , it's over a hundred and almost 108 years old now in good shape and, rational. This is, uh, it has become an icon in Baghdad and it was just added this year to the, [00:46:00] uh, Arab tourists, , as a destination to visit because Baghdad this year has been announced to be the, uh, tourism, , capital, , of the Arab world.

[00:46:11] Ahmed: So it's one of the destination that was added to be visited by visitors , to Iraq. , 

[00:46:18] Hazem Jamal: it's a remarkable home. Uh, can we put the link in the podcast notes? Oh, absolutely. That's wonderful. Great. There is a, uh, an Instagram page for the house. Do you know it off the top of your head? 

[00:46:30] Ahmed: Yes, it's, uh, Wattar, Heritage House.

[00:46:35] Ahmed: El Wattar 

[00:46:36] Hazem Jamal: Heritage House. There it is. A L W A T T A R, period, Heritage, period, House. But we'll include that. That Instagram link in the notes and in the sub stack article, subscribe, , follow, write a review, enjoy, share, , live life. We only got one. Thank you, Ahmed, for joining us on [00:47:00] Arabs in Media.

[00:47:00] Hazem Jamal: Thank you for having me. Anything else? I'm hungry. Me too. Let's go eat. All right. Okay.