Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life
Welcome to Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life — a podcast that brings personality wisdom into everyday moments. Hosted by life and relationship coach Wendy Busby, each episode offers honest conversations, real-life stories, and practical tips for your everyday life. Whether you're new to the Enneagram or deep in your growth journey, this space invites you to explore who you are, how you relate, and what it means to live with more clarity, compassion, and confidence. Tune in, share with a friend, and keep becoming Uniquely You.
Uniquely You: Enneagram + Real Life
The Art of Waking Up (Enneagram 9)
The Enneagram 9 pattern is often misunderstood as merely "easygoing" when in reality Nines have a complex inner world filled with untapped wisdom and power they struggle to access.
• 9s often have difficulty defining their own characteristics and may assume others think and feel the same way they do
• Self-preservation Nines can appear similar to 6s due to shared behavioral patterns
• Nines give others grace easily but struggle to extend the same compassion to themselves
• Being "easygoing" is both a strength and challenge – it can lead to being overlooked or taken advantage of
• Nines need extra time and space to form opinions, and can sense when others genuinely want to hear their thoughts
• A helpful practice for Nines is deliberately forming opinions in low-pressure situations (like shopping) to strengthen decision-making muscles
• The "nice person" stereotype prevents Nines from acknowledging their full humanity, including their capacity for causing hurt
• Nines often appear blank during conflict because they've disconnected from themselves, making it difficult to pinpoint issues
• Anger manifests differently in Nines – often as irritation or frustration rather than rage
• Right action happens when Nines feel clear internal knowing, as opposed to the foggy indecision of sloth
• Growth requires stepping into uncomfortable spaces and accepting that transformation isn't linear
Remember, there is no growth without some discomfort. The journey from awareness to acceptance to expansion takes courage, but leads to authentic connection with yourself and others.
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And so I think that's probably what often keeps people in a state of not wanting to work and grow, because there's always some uncomfortability and that's coming from a nine who, like, fears uncomfortability at all costs. But that, I think, is why we struggle with making that transition forward, and so probably the best advice we could give to people would be to say there is no growth or movement forward without a bit of uncomfortability, and to not not that you're looking for it, not that you're creating that necessarily in your life. I think I'm at a stage where I'm trying to seek some more uncomfortable spaces, because I know that I've resisted them for a long time. But there's actually a concept called the circle of change. I don't know if you've come across it, but your comfort zone's in the middle fear zone comes next and then the learning zone is outside of that.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Uniquely you, the podcast where self-discovery meets everyday life. I'm your host, wendy Busby, a life and relationship coach who believes you were never meant to fit into a box. My mission is to help you grow with more clarity, compassion and confidence. Thank you for listening. Today on the podcast, I'm joined by Tamara Craker.
Speaker 1:Did I get that right? You got it right. Okay, you got it.
Speaker 2:Tam is a certified Enneagram coach with a background in education, leadership and culture development. She spent 13 years in the classroom, but now Tamara helps leaders and teams get to the heart of what's really driving behavior, motivation and success. Hey Tam, I'm so glad that you're here. Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here and to talk Enneagram, I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so just a little background. We met on Instagram and then quickly realized that we both are in the CPNeogram Academy world and so have had lots of good conversations about our experience with that and our retreat experiences and all that. So it's just kind of fun to connect with people who are on the same journey doing the same kind of work, and so I've just really appreciated getting to know you and hearing some of your story, which we're going to get into more of today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Same to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if you would start, just you know, share your Enneagram story Sure when did you first? Encounter the Enneagram story. When did you first encounter the Enneagram? What is your Enneagram type? All the good things.
Speaker 1:Sure. So I first found the Enneagram through a podcast. I was listening to a podcast and the organization I was listening with was going through all the Enneagram numbers, so they had a recommended book. The first book I ever read was the Road Back to you by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stubiel, and so I picked up the book and I think I might've done a free online test. But I picked up the book and the book starts with Enneagram eight and I read the eights and I was like that's not me. And I read the nines I was like, ooh, I think that's me. And then I read every single other number and I thought I was every single other number. And then I read kind of more deeply into the nine and realized that that was a nine characteristic, that you kind of think that you are all the numbers.
Speaker 1:So it was probably a decade before I really like owned that I was a nine. Um, because it just I mean it is definitely part of the growth path of the nine to really learn who you are and be okay with owning who you are. So I thought for a long time I was a six and I would flip flop between them and I would take online tests over and over again just to like confirm that I was a nine. And then, as I kind of did some of my inner work, it felt easier to own it because the pattern just became clearer and clearer and the more deeply you go into the Enneagram and kind of look at your own inner world, it just resonates over and over and over again. So, and I mean, the six is definitely one of my arrow points, so I think probably there's been some behavioral characteristics that match with the six, but in general I don't resonate with the Enneagram six.
Speaker 2:Okay, and remind me again what your subtype is. I'm self-preservation. Self-preservation, that's right. Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense. Totally, totally. Some of those six characteristics would show up because of self-preservation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I even know now that I've kind of gone deeper into some of the subtypes. I think the reason I thought I was a six is because I think I identified with the self-preservation six patterns and I don't know if that is always the case that your arrow points are directly connected to the associated subtype in those two points, but that certainly has been my experience. I noticed myself being drawn to the stress and health of self-preservation six and self-preservation three. I find myself in both of those zones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that there's certainly some aspect of that that that is true, you know, I know that I can identify some of that for myself. Yeah, so all right.
Speaker 1:Enneagram nine yes, that's me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Um, what has learning about the nine? How has that helped you better understand what the strengths are and what the challenges are and maybe you could share you know what are some of the strengths of nine, what are some of the challenges and how did your own exploration help you see, start to see the strengths of nine, what are some of the challenges and how did your own exploration help you see, start to see the pattern of that.
Speaker 1:I think probably the the when, when I first learned the Enneagram and I read my type and then I started thinking about what I thought about myself, I thought of myself as an, a non-person andperson, and not even like in whatever sad way that just sounded, but like I couldn't nail down the characteristics of me, I assumed all people were like me or I assumed, you know, if I was easygoing, most people were easygoing, like I didn't have a very clearly defined set of characteristics about myself, which is very characteristic of a nine. And so there are still parts of that journey that when I think about who I am, I have to do almost like a when I feel like I'm not a clearly defined person, that there are sometimes characteristics about who I am that show up that way, but they are actually true to me and they are not true to other people. That is actually what a nine is, and so it's been a journey to allow myself to even come up with definitions for who I am, up with definitions for who I am. And so some of the strengths of a nine are that I offer a lot of people a lot of grace in some of those areas and I don't necessarily offer myself grace in some of those areas. So I'm very easygoing and I'm very quick to forgive and I'm very quick to give people second chances. And then I have a hard time doing that for myself.
Speaker 1:I think also from my perspective, the concept of being easygoing is probably one of my weaker characteristics. I used to get walked on a lot and I used to get kind of just not just pushed to the side, but it was just assumed that I would go along with things and then I would get praised for it. Good for you for being so easygoing. You can do anything. You know that would come up a lot as a music teacher. Oh, your Christmas concerts are so easy. You're so easygoing, you're never stressed out, but I was doing all the work. So you know it was one of those characteristics that you people like about you but isn't necessarily to your best benefit.
Speaker 2:So it kind of falls on both sides of the coin in my opinion, that's such a great example because that is so true the nines, and my husband's a nine right. I have good friends who are nines. There is that kind of easygoing accommodating. We hear that word a lot associated with nines, very accommodating, yeah, you know, not a lot of pushback, and so if there's a, let's just say, bolder person, in the relationship that person can take over Totally.
Speaker 1:And you know, for a long time I thought that that was a great trait about me, to the point where I essentially practiced not having an opinion on a lot of things and I would just tell myself it's okay, they clearly care more about this or they clearly this, but it was reinforcing this idea that I didn't have an opinion or I didn't have a personality trait that mattered more. It was constantly deferring to them, didn't have an opinion or I didn't have a personality trait that mattered more, like it was constantly deferring to them. And there isn't anything wrong with going with someone else's opinion. It's really that, under the surface stuff, that I was convincing myself that what they needed mattered more than what I needed. So being easygoing is not the problem. My own internal dialogue around why I'm easygoing is really what sets me as a healthy version of a nine and me as a pushover version of a nine.
Speaker 1:It kind of sets those two apart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so staying on opinion or knowing what it is that you want? Opinion or knowing what it is that you want? I've heard other nines describe it as, or say that they really need time. Are you more quick to know what your opinion and what you want is now, as opposed to before you had some of your healing work? Um, and then, what is your process now for, when you do have to make a decision, whether that's the smallest decision of you know, the one we always say where are we going to eat for what? Are we going to go for dinner? Right To something larger, what? What's your decision making process? What's?
Speaker 1:your decision-making process? That's a great question. That's a great question. I did need time, but I also needed either space from the person that was asking, like I needed to be alone. I would come up with a lot of opinions and ideas as soon as I wasn't with the person that was asking me for them. But I also often needed reassurance that they were going to listen. And so I had a good friend that would always ask a second time, and then there would be something in the way she would do that that I believed that she wanted to know, and it wasn't just like pleasantry or it wasn't just you know, it felt real, like it felt like she actually genuinely cared what my opinion was.
Speaker 1:So I think nines have a lot going on under the surface. They can kind of instinctively tell if someone's going to pay attention to their opinion or not, and so that isn't really. I mean, I have my own growth work to do around making my own decisions. But if you are in a relationship with a nine and you can really genuinely express to them that their opinion does really matter, they can feel it. And if you don't care what their opinion is, they can feel that too. Feel it.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's so true. I've heard my husband say almost verbatim the exact thing that you just said. And yes, for those that are listening, if you do have a nine that matters to you in your life, go back and ask again. Yeah, check in and make sure. Oh, is this really what it is that you want? Yeah, is this really you know and mean it genuinely, totally? Give time and space and what you just described you said as soon as I'm alone, I have lots of opinions and ideas.
Speaker 1:Yep, I have lots of opinions and ideas, but when you get around people, there's this losing a sense of self and it just kind of happens and I don't know how to. I know my self-preservation type feels differently about merging than other subtypes, but I have the same experience. I get in the car after a conversation. I'm like I wish I would have said this and this and this and this and this, and I have so many other things I want to say. The other thing I was going to add to your comment about in relationship is it's really helpful for me to know that I'm allowed to change my mind. So it's really it needs to be said. I can't sense that about people all the time, but it's really helpful because I often get my decision-making from my gut and if something feels uneasy to me and I know I need to change my mind, it's so helpful for someone to say and you can change your mind Like just even say that I just need it Giving you permission that it's okay for you to change your mind.
Speaker 2:I can say no, actually I meant this, or?
Speaker 1:whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the other thing I was going to say about decision-making is I used to practice I know it sounds so silly, but I would like go to HomeSense or Marshalls and I would walk around and be like I like that lamp, I don't like that lamp. And I would walk around and be like I like that lamp, I don't like that lamp. And I would just practice having opinions about stuff to kind of flex that muscle of like I'm allowed to like things and not like things and there's no consequences to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a great practical strategy. I love that. Yeah, walking through a store, I do like that. I don't like that. Yeah, just practice having an opinion. Yeah, that's brilliant.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. I do it with food too. I do it before supper I go. What do you actually want? Not what do you think you're supposed to have, or what you bought for groceries this week. What do you actually want? And then letting myself change my mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so practicing it right, exercising that decision-making opinion muscle yeah, do you find that it's easier to do that than in relationship, when you're having to do that with someone else?
Speaker 1:I would say it probably works together. I've also become better at choosing the people that I'm in relationship with. So I'm choosing people that let me have an opinion and that I don't feel kind of overpower me in that area. But I would say I mean, even in my own coaching practice I always tell people practice when you're not stressed so that when you're stressed, tell people practice when you're not stressed so that when you're stressed it is more likely. It's like going to the gym, it's like anything right If you practice when you are calm the likelihood of that being something that you can tap into when you're stressed out is much more likely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because your body has practiced. That's right, right, yeah, even though we think decision making is in the head and that's part of it. Right, we use our whole bodies when we make decisions, but our nervous system when yeah, I love that so practical.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Okay, so let's then stay a little bit with what we're talking about right now and cover some of the misconceptions. Right, there's misconceptions about all of the Enneagram types right, All of them. What are some of the misconceptions about nines that maybe really irritate you? You hear someone describing and it's usually in the overdone stereotypes of trying to make a point. I get that, but you're like I do it with four when someone's trying to explain four. I'm like, well, that's not right. So what are some?
Speaker 1:of those things I mean, I think the easygoing one is the lowest hanging fruit on that. We're not easygoing, but we will do everything in our power to make you think that we're easygoing. I get again back to teaching. I was always told that I was calm there. There was something about my, my affect that always appeared like I wasn't bothered by stuff and that was something people liked about me, and so then I kept it and so it's it's. You got to find some of those pieces in your type where it isn't necessarily true of what's your inner experience is and what might be holding you in that more stressed out inner experience, because you feel like that is maintaining a connection.
Speaker 1:The other one that is my pet peeve around nines, and unfortunately all the nines that I teach they always get told this. So I don't know that nines, like you know being in the audience when I'm teaching but I really think that nines have a bit of a nice person complex and I think that, yeah, I think when I first heard the Enneagram I got told the nines were the sweethearts of the Enneagram. And not only is that just really not true nobody is all good all the time but then it also reinforces. I mean we could get into like the soul child theory, but I'm pretty three, like there's a little version of an Enneagram three inside of me. I like being told that I'm nice and I like being told that I'm good, and so I mean many of us do. But it reinforces a version of me that first of all can't admit when I do things wrong but then also can't. It's again keeping me stuck in looking at only the good traits about me and I can't.
Speaker 1:I don't see my stubbornness very often. I don't see that I'm passive, aggressive, and so if we continue to label nines as the sweethearts, it's really hard for us to own that we are fully human, that make mistakes, that do things with an in relationship with people that hurt them, and so I really struggled to find my I don't know if we want to call it my dark side, but like the parts that were keeping me from being connected in relationship, I had a hard time seeing them because I was never doing anything. And you know, when I, when I started having bigger disagreements with people in my life and having bigger conflicts, having bigger disagreements with people in my life and having bigger conflicts I started seeing that I was essentially getting away with. Like people couldn't nail anything down on me, like they couldn't find what it was about me that was driving them so crazy.
Speaker 1:Because I've never done anything to you, I would never say anything mean about you to your face, I would never do anything actively against you, and so it was hard to fight with me. It was really hard to come up with. There's something about what you said that just doesn't make me feel good. They just couldn't come up with it and I think that's part of this nice person complex where I just believe I haven't done anything really bad to you and so I must not be that bad. And then that keeps you in your victim patterns and it keeps you in all these patterns that just really aren't helpful. They don't allow you to be fully human.
Speaker 2:That is, I love everything that you just said. You explained that in a way I've never heard anyone explain.
Speaker 1:Okay, very interesting yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I truly. I have a few friends who are married to nines and there's something about the passivity that makes it just. It feels like this slippery thing that you can't put your finger on. It's like why is this not working? Because they haven't done anything. It's hard to like, bring up facts and like examples, and so it creates this huge divide in a relationship. But it's hard to reconcile it because the nine has kind of vanished and so I think that in the nine's head they're hurt and they think that they haven't done anything. But it is causing this divide that is really hard to come back from really hard to come back from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting, right. So my husband's a sexual nine, so it does flavor it some differently, right, but what you're describing, and I think, as a four, right, we're sometimes called the truth tellers, right, we'll just say what we see, say what we intuit, all the things, right, and so that has been a pattern for us. I will say this, this, this, this, and it's just sort of this blank look of I don't know what you're talking about, right, I mean, there's this like I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yep and I'm like what do?
Speaker 2:you mean, you don't know what I'm talking about. You know this, this, this, this this, totally Absolutely. So that helps me understand better. Yes, it's like what I hear you describing and then thinking about when I've seen my husband do that, like a real disconnect with yourself. It is yeah, and even the way you show up, yeah and in and not remembering, and then that goes into this numbing thing that we've talked about Nines go to sleep to themselves. Yeah, right, and I will have said, like I feel like you don't listen to me.
Speaker 2:You don't remember the things that I say yeah, you don't remember that. You that I was like. You've asked me that three times. He's like I don't remember.
Speaker 1:Well, and we don't remember. I have times where I literally cannot remember something I'm supposed to do, because it's probably something that benefits me, and my brain just turns off and I don't remember it.
Speaker 2:Yes, right, yeah. And then of course that gets interpreted by me like well, you don't care, you don't remember it.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, that gets interpreted by me Like well, you don't care, I know I'm so glad we're past most of that as a pattern for a really, really, really long time.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, and what I will also add. I mean I've hopefully nines.
Speaker 1:Don't hate me after this, but what I will add, is that we're a little diabolical too. Like you told me, I'm not listening. Guess what I probably would try not to listen to you after that. Like our stubbornness is crazy and we don't always acknowledge it, like I think self-pres nines are the most stubborn.
Speaker 1:So, yes, that's maybe that's slightly different than how your husband experiences some of that, but I have had times where I have put a literal I can feel a wall that I've put up against somebody and I will do the opposite of anything that they want me to do, just because I'm so annoyed. I've haven't acknowledged necessarily my anger, but I'm so annoyed that they don't get that I'm in a situation where they need to come and find me or I don't feel the disconnect from my side. I feel it because they've done something to me and then I will react in some way, but again, I'll do it, probably with a smile on my face, and I'll probably do it or neutral, right, you won't be able to see what I've done to you. It's diabolical, diabolical.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for your candor. This is fantastic. I love it, I mean, but it's clear, you've done your work. I mean, that's what this looks like you being able to describe your inner landscape Right and being able to know. Know that that is there is evidence that you are coming awake to yourself, that you have come awake to yourself.
Speaker 1:Thank you, and it's really beautiful. Thank you, I really appreciate that. I mean it's lovely that you and I haven't had a fight so it's easier for me to talk about this stuff. Thank you.
Speaker 2:I will take that compliment Absolutely. Please do so. You touched on a little bit, but let's talk about the anger Sure. What is your definition of anger as a nine? What?
Speaker 1:is your definition of anger? As a nine, I now am at a place where I just assume it's in there, but I have very little lived experience of my anger. So I experience anger as irritation and I experience anger as frustration. I have a good friend who's a sexual nine and she has much more contact with her anger, I think just because of that dominant instinct it changes how she connects to it. I did, however, very recently have a really big dispute with a landlord and for the first time I experienced this crazy rage that was in my body and it just like. I've never experienced energy like that before.
Speaker 1:So one of the things that I will say about I mean I can just maybe speak about self-pres nines is we may think we have some understanding of our irritability or anger, or however nines want to call it, but we have no idea the power and the strength behind the anger that really exists in us. I mean, I've done a lot of therapy and I've gone to a lot of lengths to be as aware as possible, so now I just assume it's in there, but I don't have a ton of contact with it. I can feel it motivating me. So I experience anger as decision-making and I experience anger in I now stand up for myself more and I can feel that. But after experiencing it, maybe like last month, I've only scratched the surface of that power and energy that comes from my anger inside of me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how that's connected to what you're describing is right action right. The virtue of right action is what you're describing. And so nines, getting in touch with the anger, the energy of anger, to propel themselves into action on behalf of self Exactly Right. So let's talk a little bit about sloth and right action, because I think this is something that's really hard to understand and it's certainly it is confusing for a person who's in a relationship with a knife.
Speaker 1:It is, it's hard, it is Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Because you don't see it. It's like oh, just come on Right, so talk about it if you can and if you have any examples that you can share. You just did with your, but it sounds like that was like a pivotal opening.
Speaker 1:It was.
Speaker 2:It's almost like you cracked the container on the little anger ball inside of you. Yes, I did.
Speaker 1:Yes, oh, it's been cracked open. I will never forget how that feels. Yeah, absolutely so I would say the right action piece is interesting. I think it comes in levels for nines.
Speaker 1:The example that I have that felt very clearly like right action was when I quit teaching. But a therapy session and I'm not even sure what we were talking about. But I remember saying my gut connected to my voice, and I said I have to quit my job, and it was. There was no question about it. I did not need follow-up from my, my counselor, I didn't need anybody's confirmation about it. I knew it was true and I knew it was what needed to happen. And then, like the next day, I told my principals, I told my teachers, I told my everybody I quit and I mean, you know, finished off the school year and all those things. But there was something that felt incredibly clear, like I've never doubted it for a second and I've never gone back on it.
Speaker 1:So to me, the difference between sloth and right action is that sloth is often very foggy for me, like when I can't tell what decision I should make. It's likely some version of sloth is operating, whereas when there's something in me that feels incredibly clear about what I want, what I need to do. It doesn't always have to be action, but it's something in me that knows the answer. It's something in me that feels incredibly clear on what the answer needs to be, and then it's almost like action just happens. I don't need to do anything about it. Once I'm clear on what it is, I can just move forward with it, and then I don't feel afraid. I don't feel there's no conflict involved. I just have what I need to do, the things that I need to do and the action associated with that feels easy.
Speaker 1:Yep, it's no problem. It's really crazy and I know, okay, yeah, I know. Like part of my journey has also been. You know, the nines have this thing where they see things from other people's perspectives, but really what that is is it's still my perspective. I'm just imagining essentially what your perspective is, because there's no way for me to be in your mind, body and heart, there's no way for me to know what you actually think. But I've become so practiced at guessing that I'm just really good at it. And so there was a day not that long ago that I looked at my dog and I remember thinking I saw her instead of imagining what I saw.
Speaker 1:Like it's, it's really for nines. It's a difference between our imagination and our mulling and our like foggy inner world. To like being present and seeing it. Right Action is like I just know, instead of like I'm coming up with a version, instead of like I'm coming up with a version. Does that make sense? Yeah, say that again. So like right action is I just know and I can see, and I'm present and I'm I'm not out there trying to like imagine what's going on. I just know what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yes, the way you described. Yes, it's knowing, as opposed to trying to come up with a version that you think you know.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's exactly it.
Speaker 2:A very clear delineation between those two things, and that's when a nine can know that they are in virtue of right action.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I think I don't never realized how, um, how much I was in my imagination, Like I've had lots of like fears and stuff in my life and those I know are some version of imagination for me. But really I have come up with some type of version of all the people in my life, Like because I'm I'm trying to imagine what they're thinking and what they're saying and then I try and align my action with that. That's not right action. That is the source Isn't me. The source is the sources outside of me and it's very, very different. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Interesting, Okay, Um, so I want to ask you one more question about you as a nine, and then I want to transition a little bit just to talk about you as a teacher professional. Get your insights on that. So you've met someone. They just discovered that they're a nine. What is one piece of advice that you want to give? Give them as they begin their inner work journey?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. Um, when I do typing interviews, and regardless of what type, I always leave everybody with a really powerful moment that can shift how you think about yourself moving forward. And the moment I always give nines is paying attention to the moment where your preference or opinion is needed, and it doesn't mean that you have one, it doesn't mean that you have to decide on one in that moment. But what happens to a nine when someone says what do you think?
Speaker 1:There's like an inner experience that happens where they kind of like vacate their bodies and they are attempting to find your opinion and align it with what they're going to say next, and so I'm guessing that has something to do with anger. I'm guessing that that has something to do with a lot to do with sloth and indolence, but it will be different for each person. So what I always tell nines is that when someone says, what do you think or what do you want, if you can pause for a second and just pay attention to something that's going, whatever's going on inside of you, and don't label it, don't do anything with it, but just notice it, there is like a huge amount of information about you in that moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it all begins with paying attention. Exactly it's where we all have to start. Yeah, paying attention to our pattern. Exactly, you don't have to like I do the same thing, you don't have to do anything about it. Yeah, just notice, just pay attention, just notice. Exactly Start to show up. Yeah, good, beautiful, yeah, okay. So we talked about you being a teacher, but now you're a teacher of the Enneagram, yes, yes. So when you're introducing the Enneagram to a new group, a new client, what's your elevator pitch of introducing the Enneagram?
Speaker 1:Well, when I teach the Enneagram, I always start with self-awareness, and I always start with the idea that we really only hold half the information in a relationship or situation, and even only hold half of the information about ourselves, because we are assuming a lot about how people are perceiving us.
Speaker 1:So when I pitch people on the Enneagram, I just make it very clear that the Enneagram actually holds the answers to both of those sides of the coin.
Speaker 1:It shows you what's going on in your inner world, but it also often gives you huge advice on how other people are perceiving you. And so I think those are the pieces that I work typically in work contexts, in workplace contexts and organizations, and that is the piece that causes all the problems is that I think I'm being this way, you're perceiving it a different way, and then there's like this massive miscommunication and the Enneagram just says it. It's just like written down, like you can just like read it and be like oh, you know, the biggest example is always an eight, eights are too much. It's like well, they have a different experience of that internally, but they also need to know from you why you feel that they're being too much, and then you can start opening up the conversation. Then you can be like okay, well, that's what you experienced, but that's not actually how I experienced it and you can actually talk about that and come to a bit of a better understanding of what's going on.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, whether it's a work relationship, an intimate relationship, we give people permission to tell us the truth about how they experience us.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Life-changing.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And the Enneagram almost Hard yes, painful yes.
Speaker 2:But to repair the ruptures that are already there in relationship, you have to.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I've even gone as far as to say like, just blame the Enneagram or blame me, Like I gave this whole um. I gave I was working with administrative professionals and I gave them, like how each type likes to receive feedback. I said just tell them, I told you that, just say. Tamara said it has. Tamara said you have to give me feedback. This way, it's just written down, it just gives you language, it gives you opportunity to have those conversations and then you don't have to come up with it on your own, it's written in a book.
Speaker 2:It's genius. I love that you said that and it's so true. Right? It's about that. We are all different and it's okay that we're different. Yes, Our strengths lie in our differences Absolutely. And when we can let go and be a little bit more open to understanding, a little bit more flexible, brilliant things happen in all spaces, all groups and love it Okay.
Speaker 1:Totally agree.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then taking it to the next level, right? People start to know their type, starting to pay attention to their patterns. So how to take someone from just learning?
Speaker 2:So how to take someone from just learning, learning the information about their own pattern, enneagram pattern, into actual, like real transformation, real growth. Because it's not just about right, because when it stays at what I have seen, when it stays at that level of just learning information about the Enneagram pattern, it becomes excuse Totally. That's just the way that I am, that's just the way they are. We just have to deal with it and tolerate and let this person be, whoever they are going to be. There's truth in that. Yes, we can't do the work for them.
Speaker 2:Yep Right but you know, we don't have to also. That's where our boundaries come in Right when someone refuses to do anything with the information that they've been given. Yep, when you know well us as teachers and coaches, right, we're like, please just do it. Yes, yes, yes, right, yeah, so yeah, I guess. How do you help? People move from in like a seminar that you're giving or something like okay here's the information. Maybe you know where you land. Now what are we?
Speaker 1:going to do with that Totally. I mean, I think there's so many pieces to that. I mean, the first thing I would say is that not everybody's ready to move into a space of acknowledgement and wanting to grow in some of those areas I often think of it as a three-step process is how I teach it. Awareness has to be the first step. If you don't see that, you're an Enneagram nine, I don't know where we're going to go from there. Acceptance is the part that you're talking about where we don't say you're a bad person because you're this way. We say that might be the way you are right now and we're, if that's okay, yep, accepting. We're going to accept where we're at. But then the part I think we're talking about is expanding. So I always think of it as awareness, acceptance and expansion, and I think that we have some guesses on what expansion looks like. But the tricky part about self-awareness work is that it's never done alone and it's never done in a vacuum, and so I think that's probably what often keeps people in a state of not wanting to work and grow, because there's always some uncomfortability. And that's coming from a nine who, like, fears uncomfortability at all costs, but it um, that, I think, is why we struggle with making that transition forward, and so probably the best advice we could give to people would be to say, um, there is no growth or movement forward without a bit of uncomfortability, and to not not that you're looking for it, not that you're creating that necessarily in your life.
Speaker 1:I think I I'm at a stage where I'm trying to seek some more uncomfortable spaces, because I know that I've resisted them for a long time.
Speaker 1:But there's actually a concept called the circle of change. I don't know if you've come across it, but your comfort zone's in the middle. Fear zone comes next and then the learning zone is outside of that, and there is no learning without a little bit of varying degrees of right. Like when you first learned to read, you felt uncomfortable. You couldn't figure out the words right, so there's always those pieces of uncomfortability. However, when the fear zone is so big, like it feels like it's going to destroy all your relationships and you're going to lose your job and you're going to lose all your things, then it just kind of bounces you back into comfort zone. So I do think there is an art to learning where, how to expand your own personality, and that's something that even your coach can't tell you what to do. That's something that's your own personal exploration of that, when you feel ready to start embracing a little bit more fear and uncomfortability.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's a slow process yes, it's important for people to understand that it's not linear. No.
Speaker 2:It's not step one through 10.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Right, it's what you described as the expansion. Right, there's an expansion and then a contraction. As you know, we expand and we try something on, um, we get uncomfortable and oftentimes we can only tolerate the discomfort for so long, so we've got to contract back to comfortability, the safe zone right, until we get a little bit brave again. Okay, well, let me expand again, let me experience and try something again new, in a different way. And I mean, it doesn't matter what your Enneagram pattern is. That is true for everybody.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we're living in a beautiful time where lots of people are doing inner work and there's so much literature out there. As far as how to take those little steps to know more about your inner world, I think the biggest step you can take is just to say I may not know as much as I think I know about my inner world. That's the biggest opener right there, because then you are open to maybe looking at what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, yeah, and being willing to be honest with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a typing interview yesterday and it was right. It's just that it's that encouraging of like it's okay to be, it's okay to be honest Exactly encouraging of like it's okay to be it's okay, to be honest, exactly Right. You're here for a reason.
Speaker 1:You're, you came here for a reason, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and we need you. I always say that we need you and we need each other, so we need every person being themselves.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, yeah, yeah, well, um, this has been amazing. I have loved our conversation I can't believe I had so many more questions. I wanted to honor your time and honor my time, so, um, any last piece of advice that you'd like to share about nines being a nine being in relationship with a nine, any last little nugget of wisdom?
Speaker 1:I think that the last little piece I'll say is that nines are a lot harder on themselves than they realize and that might be true of lots of numbers, but I know it's definitely true of my experience, and I think you need to remind yourself of how great you are and that we need you and that you aren't a non-person and that you're a really crucial part of the world.
Speaker 2:Beautifully said. So where can people find you, follow your work, connect with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, my company is called Enneagram Aware spelt the way it sounds if you know how to spell Enneagram. So I'm on Instagram at Enneagram underscore. Aware I'm also up here in Winnipeg, canada, and I'll do a little plug, for we're starting an Enneagram Canada association affiliated with IEA Global. Oh, I love that Great yeah. So if you want to get involved in that, you should find me, because we want as many Canadian Enneagram enthusiasts and practitioners as we can find.
Speaker 2:Fantastic, and I'll make sure I put all of those links Perfect the show so people could just go there right there and they can connect with you Instagram. I'll put your website on there. All the good things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome.
Speaker 2:I will close this out with a quote. That's something I decided to do starting this new season that I am doing you love it Leave us with a little nugget for the day. So our closing quote for today is real peace is not the absence of conflict, but the presence of connection, courage and clarity. The Enneagram helps us find all three, starting with ourselves.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you so much for having me. You're very welcome.
Speaker 2:I appreciate your candor today and willingness to be here and we'll connect soon Sounds great.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.