
Quality Grind Podcast
Welcome to The Quality Grind Podcast, presented by Medvacon! Join hosts Joe Toscano, President of Medvacon, and Mike Kent, Director of Learning Platforms, as they (we) have some fun while tackling topics related to the “everyday grind” within Life Science industries.
Featuring conversations with key industry players, they’ll dive into their unique problem-solving strategies, career paths and personal interests. Most importantly, their (our) goal is to cultivate a community where information and experiences can be shared with and for the benefit of all, emphasizing the diversity of approaches to industry challenges and the importance of continuous engagement and learning.
Quality Grind Podcast
Entertaining Better Training, Part 2
In this episode of the Quality Grind Podcast, host Mike Kent and special guest Ronnie Feldman continue to explore creative techniques for making compliance training engaging and effective, including storytelling, music, humor, and the importance of tailoring your approach for diverse audiences. Feldman shares insights on adopting a “train less, communicate more” strategy, using the fun thing to draw attention to the important thing, and building a better business case, all aimed at improving training outcomes and positively influencing compliance behavior in regulated environments.
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Quality Grind Podcast | Ep 18
Entertaining Better Training, Part 2
Jessica Taylor: [00:00:00] This is the Quality Grind Podcast presented by Medvacon. Conversations that go beyond compliance, sharing insights geared toward helping you navigate the everyday grind of regulated life science industries. Here are your hosts, Joe Toscano and Mike Kent.
Mike Kent: Welcome back to The Grind everyone, and to the continuation of our discussion with former comedian and current compliance training expert Ronnie Feldman. So far we've discussed the science, the application of "Yes, and..." from improvisation, and how psychological safety and pattern disruption play a leading role in improving the effectiveness of compliance training in regulated environments.
In part two, Ronnie discusses more of the creative wrappers he's used to package compliance training. These wrappers help open people up to the important [00:01:00] messages and concepts we relay and that the audience needs to adopt back on the job.
So let's jump back into the conversation with Ronnie Feldman in part two of
'Entertaining Better Training' here on The Grind.
But you talk about wrapping important topics in more creative wrappers and those creative examples. You touched on your intention around the word 'entertainment' over fun and goofing off and everything else.
We're not diluting the message. We're not discounting the message. We're not discounting the importance. To your point, we're putting it in a wrapper in a package that's more engaging that people will want, that people will connect with.
Ronnie Feldman: Mm hmm.
Mike Kent: Oh, by the way, will actually reach out for more. Which if we get to that point, when we're having those [00:02:00] problems of, we've got all these people that are now asking questions about what they should do or asking for more training on a particular subject because they want to understand it better. What great problems to have.
So talk to us a little bit about how we can package our training, maybe more specifically, dive in a little deeper. What can we use that you found really effective for those boring, critically important topics to engage people with?
Ronnie Feldman: So, I'm hearing two different questions of that. And I want to...
Mike Kent: I'm famous for that by the way.
Ronnie Feldman: ...know my... Okay, that's why I like to take notes so I don't forget.
So yeah, let's talk about creative techniques. But I want to come back to like, ultimately for people who, if this is interesting, we can help them build a better business case, which there's a couple of ways to do that.[00:03:00]
But yeah, some of the creative wrappers, I mean, there's, I always say, like, I'm not inventing these things. I'm just borrowing the different entertainment conventions that I like in my everyday life. Well, look, this is not the most creative thing, but we always say storytelling is a good one, right?
An example I use is half of the trainings have like a case study built in. John and Jill did da, da, da, da, da, da, this and that, whatever it is. It's a case. Here's a scenario. This happened. What do you do? But most problems that occur in the workplace are really interesting. And we tend to suck all the fun out of it.
So I created a series called 'Tales From the Hotline'. And all I did was, I interviewed 15 different compliance officers from different [00:04:00] industries. And I basically asked them to submit me a story of what really happened and they all sent me these case studies. And I was like, there's, I go, get on the phone with me, tell me what happened. They're like, oh, my God, we had this guy and he did. And do you believe that he did this? And they did that. And that's what they thought. Like, you can't make this stuff up and they're telling it like that. And I go, this is super interesting. Why aren't we presenting it that way? So I recorded them, I changed names and dates, I hired comedians to retell these stories just to sort of anonymize it a little bit.
And they're really fun and interesting. I mean, corruption, bribery, harassment, discrimination. It's not fun, but they're interesting, right? So what is storytelling? Tell an interesting story, has a beginning, middle and end, has heroes and villains, has a conflict that's overcome. You know, you can just Google what a good story is. I mean, we all know it when we hear it.
Mike Kent: Yeah. That's [00:05:00] entertaining. That's engaging. People are going to gravitate.
Ronnie Feldman: There's no jokes in it, like we're not telling jokes. We're talking like a human being, the way human beings actually talk when you're at a bar and a restaurant with your friends and family talk.
I love the idea of music as you heard me reference several times, and this is why. Humor is polarizing. We all have a different sense of humor. So, I tell you a joke, whatever. There's da da da da da da. Right? So, I do have a series that I created called 'Workplace Tonight' where we use like a late night talk show desk like a you know, a late night set like the, whatever, like the Daily Show or John Oliver Show or Tonight Show, whatever, and we tell jokes.
Mike Kent: Okay. Yeah.
Ronnie Feldman: We put the graphics over the shoulder. We talk about conflict...
Mike Kent: Nice.
Ronnie Feldman: ...policy. We have someone who slides in like 'Weekend Update', and usually says the dumb thing. So we do things like that where, you know, and then we talk about it. Because that's a fun, entertaining [00:06:00] device.
I like music more than that, partially because it's just weird to sing about conflicts of interest. It's weird to like, you don't even have to tell jokes. We'll have playing the... singing these things is earwormy and entertaining without being funny. Do you know what I mean? I tell people that music tends to work great in Asia when we have global, we have global clients, you know, in Asia and Europe.
And so I find that I, my company, we do a lot with music for that very reason, because it's, you literally can sing the policy or sing the action. Um, it's weird.
Mike Kent: People pick up on that weirdness. I, the Adam Sandler songs keep going through my head. It's like, but people will remember that stuff and be able to sing along. And, and you mentioned that the [00:07:00] acronym and... I was out the other night, little quick side story. I was out the other night and all of a sudden the guy sitting next to me sort of saying, "Oh yeah, it's like, you know, when I learned the Barney song..." and started singing the Barney, so this is a 45 year old man sitting next to me in a public place, singing the Barney song. I was captivated on every single word because I had no idea who's going to hear that, right?
Ronnie Feldman: Well, like, well, I'm sorry to keep it up to you, but I get excited to talk about it.
Mike Kent: Please. Yeah.
Ronnie Feldman: Uh, yeah, we all know, I mean, I grew up with Schoolhouse Rock. There's a million examples. You know, airline safety videos have gotten really in the last 10, 15 years have gotten really interesting. You know, they'll have, uh, Southwest has been doing it forever. They have, they let they tell their jokes during that, because guess what? No one was paying attention. You know, commercials on television, the Geico commercial, Progressive commercials, they don't make fun of their products, [00:08:00] like being entertaining doesn't mean to make fun of, right? That is one way to, you know, that we would say back in our Second City training, like, you can punch up, but you can't punch down, right?
You can, you can, meaning like, you know, it doesn't go over as well when you make fun of the less, you know, the less privileged or the, or people who are in a compromising situations, but you can poke fun at authority. You can poke fun at the rules, you know, you, you can find all sorts of ways to kind of find something. A common enemy, if it were, if you were to, um, satirize that, and that tends to go over, over well. So to, to use humor doesn't necessarily mean to make fun of, cause then it's just bullying. Right. So, uh, so that's like,
Mike Kent: Get another compliance issue in training. Right? Didn't that defeat the whole purpose?
Ronnie Feldman: Well, it's like, you know, cause I get this all the time. It's like, [00:09:00] well, we're really conservative, you know, you can't make fun of it. And I'm like, well, we're not. There's a million examples of how you're not making fun of the issue.
We literally made a training this past year for one of our clients on active shooter training, which I really did not want to make. It's like, I was like, I don't want to make this. This is one of the few topics where I'm like, I don't think we should make this funny. Like you should hire another company to do this. And they said, no, we like you, we want you to do it. We like your way you guys approach it. So we created a, a talk show and we had a host interviewing an expert. So we framed it up in something that didn't feel like a training, and then we had a serious discussion. And we called out the nervousness and we called out the uncomfortableness.
My point being is you can take any subject and find a more effective way to deliver it [00:10:00] by just looking out at the world, at the things that you watch and you consume and borrowing that and applying it to that serious subject. Said another way, you could have a conservative company, but your conservative approach to training and communications isn't helping, you know what I mean?
Mike Kent: Yes. It's getting in the way of what your ultimate goal is, because you're throwing bricks up instead of connecting with people in a way that they will, let's put it pretty bluntly, A) listen, B) not do anything else, right? I mean, if we get that far, sometimes that's an initial win that can begin to move us down the road.
You mentioned storytelling, and those case studies came up for me as well as yeah, okay, here we go again with another story. But, what I'm hearing, it's [00:11:00] about how you frame those things and taking advantage of all the different things that resonate with people. And I go back to the neuroscience. Opening up different parts of the brain at different times allows for things to sink in. You're not going to shove things through a closed door. Or, if that synapse isn't open, you can push and you can push and you can push. All you're going to do is cause pain, right? And nobody likes that. So figure out a way to get the message in that resonates with the people that are your audience, instead of your own potentially narrow views, and may or may not be narrow, but, you know, take what works and use it. If it doesn't work, try something else.
Ronnie Feldman: Don't be so you know, uh, afraid. Variety is the spice of life. There is no single way to [00:12:00] engage a multicultural, multigenerational, diverse workforce. Everybody's trying to kind of like, I want to buy this one product that everybody's going to love or build this one training, but it doesn't exist.
So we, I've discovered this long ago. Like I've made to this point thousands of video content on a variety of different subjects, and I can't get anyone to agree on what they like or they don't like. I will literally talk to clients who are using the same content and they'll be like, well, I like, I like this. But I won't like that because that doesn't work in Asia. And then I'll talk to someone else and they'll say, well, I like this because it works in Asia. But I don't like that. And I'm like, they just gave me the exact opposite opinion, right? And it makes me realize that the more effective solution is to try more things, to try a variety of creative things over time.
So, I'm a big fan of like, [00:13:00] uh, if there's an important topic, I know there's bandwidth issues, but if you want to have like an annual training, then you should have a touch point. You know, a couple more times a year depending on the subject. So those touch points should all be different styles.
Mike Kent: Sure.
Ronnie Feldman: Or if you're having a monthly communication on something like 'Speak Up', something that, you know, you want to put out pretty regularly, then try 12 different things.
Now, some people are going to like some and not the others, and they may engage in that and not that and not that, but they will, and that it mitigates the risk of any one initiative. So strangely enough, you know, it's a risk averse community. We should try more things knowing that some are not going to work. And I would argue that the more provocative it is, you may get higher swings, like higher engagement and also higher, like I hated it.[00:14:00]
Mike Kent: Sure, yeah.
Ronnie Feldman: So you have to have a plan for how are you going to deal with that? And I can help with that, too. You know, turning mistakes into teachable moments and higher engagements and things like that. But still trying more things ultimately will be better for you, because you will engage more people over time.
Mike Kent: Absolutely. And if your goal is to have those infrequent, or not infrequent, but periodic connections rather than one hour-long training, you deliver your substrate in whatever manner and then have those touch points. You try different things to see what works.
You know, one of the things that I recall about my initial scientific training, and I'm surprised when my colleagues don't take this approach. We're so afraid of negative reactions, but that's just data. That just tells me that, okay, this group didn't [00:15:00] like this. Let's find something that they might like, and we have to try different things in order to do that.
The other thing that bubbled up is if I've got six touch points across the year, because I've structured my training that way, and two of the six hit with each one of my groups, that's two additional touch points over the, or two additional connections inward and additional retention than I had if I was to deliver one single annual training a certain way and hope for the best that folks are going to actually be there.
I'm winning. I'm not getting 100 percent 100 percent of the time. But in order to raise the boat, I don't need 100% 100 percent of the time. If I can get 20 percent each time and I do it six times, that's 120%. I'm already [00:16:00] ahead. And so that fear of failure or that judgment of a failure because it didn't land with some folks. Here again, it's the "Yes, and...". Okay, you're up there on stage and and one of your buddies says something that is just so off the wall that the audience doesn't react to it at all. Okay, now what do we do? Do we go back in the corner and cry or do we just try something else to bring those folks back? Talk to me a little bit about those strategies.
And that's where, you know, I keep coming back to that strategy or that um, way of doing things in improv. But I think it really serves us well from a mindset standpoint.
Ronnie Feldman: 'Train less, communicate more' is a good phrase to have, right? If you need to show a trackable way that everyone took the thing, and then you want to have evidence, make sure you, you know, you do that. But do that quickly and [00:17:00] as efficiently as possible, and then spend your money on things that actually help affect learning and behavior, right? Like we have to acknowledge the things that we're doing.
If we want to focus on behavior and learning, right, then let's talk about the things that help affect behavior and learning, which is you have to get, it's, sort of the social environment and the leadership environment.
What I mean by that is like, we're all affected by our environment and our peers, which means we need to say things more frequently so that our peers will be like, yeah, we don't cheat on our expense reports. There's a lot of social environment that affect what we do, and so we need to say things more frequently.
So train less, communicate more, and make those communications interesting in some way. Make that training interesting in some way, because helps with learning and recall. And ideally you're getting leaders involved to reinforce these things. [00:18:00] I'm a big fan of creating trainings that you then give to a leader and make them deliver that training as a better way to cascade across the organization.
And the only way you get them involved is it's fun and interesting, right? Like it all comes back to like, so if I'm building a business case, it's like, what's how to affect learning and behavior. We know that things that are fun and interesting and short, frequent, snackable, trackable training and comms is a more effective solution.
Then you need to attach to a real problem. So if you want to convince your boss, you don't go, Hey, I got this really, I want to do something really fun. You go, what problems are we trying to solve? Well, no one's using the hotline or we got a big problem that, uh, we have a lot more reports on bullying, or we're having corruption in this region of the world or whatever the thing is. Life sciences, off label promotions are happening, you know, and whatever. [00:19:00] So you find a problem, start thinking about, all right, well, we want to increase the frequency of our messaging around this without message fatigue. That's a problem.
The way to do that is, hey, we have this interesting way of communicating more frequently with little nudge learning. And we think Corporate Counsel will be on board if we make it fun because we want to stand out. It's all the things that we said, but it's framing around what's the big problem.
What's the strategy and tactic. I want to do a monthly communication. I want to do a reinforcement after the live training. I want to create a 10 minute micro learning that I'm going to give to a leader and have them deliver it. I don't think that they're going to do it or allow me access unless we make it beneficial to them.
How do we make it beneficial to them? Make your partner look - Improv rule - make your partner look good and they will make you, they'll make you look good. So making fun and interesting will make them look good. So then they will deliver it on your behalf.
I don't know. I [00:20:00] know I'm rambling a lot of stuff out quickly, but I, I really feel like we all intuitively know that being creative and interesting and playful and positive is more effective. We just have to put the effort in to do it because it does take a lot, and time sometimes. But it ultimately is more efficient and effective because they'll learn more. They'll get and cause fewer problems. They'll reach out for help and support even if they don't remember everything.
You know, I don't know. That's my best way to sort of ramble through some of my thoughts.
Mike Kent: I think you hit it right on the head. Some of the key messages that come up for me about what you've said, Ronnie, is impact and interest is an individual and collective thing that we have to focus on and understand. Psychological safety. You talked about, um, do we create an environment where [00:21:00] bad news is okay to talk about? And when you mentioned one of the business strategy elements of, well, what problem is this trying to solve and how are we going to use this particular tactic to solve that problem? It's inherently based on doing something better. But how we frame those messages, how we frame the actual message during the training. It's not making fun of the problem or the issue or saying it's okay or not taking it seriously. We're putting it in a package that allows people to connect with it at a different level, at a more human level that they'll engage with. That increases retention, that increases willingness to do the thing we're asking them to do, which inherently leads to compliance. And we do it in a manner that's [00:22:00] digestible. And yes, we can't be afraid of spending a little bit of extra time in the training group in that organization.
Heck, as a trainer, I would rather put these sorts of things, these sorts of programs together, where it's fun, exciting, smaller, I can get more feedback on my program after a 10 minute connection with a small group as opposed to once a year with a thousand people and course correct where I need to so I can be more effective as a training professional as well.
What have we missed? And in our last couple of seconds here, what would you say are, is the most, I hate to say most critical, but the, the takeaway message or two from this discussion based on your experience? Is it that this is achievable? Is it that there [00:23:00] are barriers that can be broken down? What would you say is the, the most salient points?
Ronnie Feldman: Well, a couple of thoughts. I mean, I think you've said it quite well. Like, first of all, everybody's fun and interesting in their own way. So, you know, there's a lot of people who are really like, well, I'm not the creative type. Yeah, you are. You are when you're, you know, you're in the right environment with your family and friends. So one is to tap in whatever to whatever creativity that you have and spend that time because not everything has to be funny, but you can use the fun thing to draw attention to the important thing. You can draw, use the fun thing to drive traffic to the important thing. You know, in this case, click bait might be good if you're driving traffic to a learning resource. You could have, say, the fun thing, so they will listen to the very important thing that you're about to say. You got to say the fun thing to reinforce the important thing that you're about to say. Like there's all [00:24:00] sorts of creative things. So we can't be afraid of, um, as we say, you can be a conservative company, a conservative person, but your conservative approach to training and communications isn't helping, right? So we need to try more things. We need to be less precious about it. Obviously, make sure you get rid of the, uh, any possibility of offense and those kinds of things. You want to do your work around that. But there's examples in our everyday lives where this is successful and it can apply around these very serious subjects.
I'll leave you with a quote from Maya Angelou, which she, uh, well, I'll give you that one. I'll give you one. I'll give you two. Maya Angelou, I love, which is "People remember what you won't remember what you say, they won't remember what you did, they'll remember how you made them feel."
Mike Kent: Yes.
Ronnie Feldman: So it's the whole thing about the halo effect of you and your department [00:25:00] by doing these fun and interesting things makes you and your department more welcoming and approachable. And that's a big battle.
And I'll leave you with John Cleese from Monty Python, who I love, he said,
"The main evolutionary significance of humor is it gets people from the closed mode to the open mode quicker than anything else."
And I believe that to be true with all my heart. So yes, these things are important, but if we want to actually affect behaviors and help people learn things, be fun and interesting and try new things.
Mike Kent: And what do we remember? The things that are fun and interesting and stood out for some reason that were meaningful to us.
Ronnie Feldman: That's right.
Mike Kent: Tremendous. Ronnie, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here on the Quality Grind Podcast. Really appreciate your time today. And as I said, we'll provide a link to your website, Learnings & Entertainments, in the show notes so people can go and check you out. I [00:26:00] encourage you to, or encourage our listeners to check out Ronnie's profile on LinkedIn and get in touch with him if you feel like you can be of help.
And these are all really important messages for us to hear, if nothing else, to build some confidence within our own training communities, that there's some justification for how and why we should be trying different things and not necessarily be afraid of, of falling flat on our feet, our face on stage.
Ronnie Feldman: Thanks everybody! I appreciate you contacting me anytime. Happy to talk about this stuff and provide you with links and resources and for a variety of budgets. So good times. I appreciate you.
Mike Kent: Thanks very much, sir. Enjoy the rest of your day and be well. Thanks again.
Ronnie Feldman: All right. Bye.
Joe Toscano: If Medvacon can help you and your organization, we're happy to do so. We specialize in the following areas: Quality and Compliance, Validation and Qualification Services, Project [00:27:00] Management, Tech Transfers, General and Specialized Training Programs, Engineering Services, and Talent Acquisition. If you have general questions as well, feel free to give us a call at any time.
We can easily be reached at 833 633 8226 or via our website at www. medvacon. com. Thanks so much, and we look forward to speaking with you.
Jessica Taylor: Thank you for listening to the Quality Grind Podcast presented by Medvacon. To learn more or to hear additional episodes, visit us at www. medvacon. com.