50th Episode Celebration: A CFO Panel on What Business Owners Should Know

E#50: In this special 50th episode of Budget Your Business, Scott Geller hosts a roundtable with finance leaders: 

Andrew Marianski

Heather Tuason

Terrye Enslow 

They discuss key financial topics that small business owners should focus on as they operate their companies. The conversation covers the importance of understanding core financial metrics such as cash flow, profitability, and working capital, along with how business owners can better interpret the drivers behind those numbers. The group also explores broader themes around managing growth, building the right leadership structure as a company evolves, and recognizing financial and operational risks before they become major problems. Throughout the discussion, the panel shares perspectives from their experience working with small and mid-sized businesses, offering guidance on how owners can think more strategically about their finances and leadership decisions. It’s a great insight into three finance minds that have seen “everything.” 

Book Recommendation: 

Marshall Goldsmith books

Brene Brown books

Incerto series by Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Andrew D. Huberman books 

Find out more about them: 

Terrye Enslow: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terrye-enslow-1540645/ 

Heather Tuason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathertuason/ 

Andrew Marianski: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-marianski/ 

Find more episodes on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music and here: https://budgetyourbusinesspodcast.buzzsprout.com/

Transcript

Milestone And Guest Intros

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Budget Your Business Podcast, where small business owners go to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business.

SPEAKER_04 0:07

Let's get started with your host, Scott Geller. Today is our 50th show of Budget Your Business.

Scott 0:18

Personally, I enjoy birthdays, holidays, and other excuses to celebrate. So we're going to celebrate the 50th episode of Budget Your Business with a special show today. I'm joined by three very experienced individuals that have been in finance in one manner or another their entire careers, and that I've also gotten to know over years. We're going to cover relevant topics that I find are critical to small business success. I've asked them to join me to share their experience and insight for our listeners. So let me welcome the three here. Andrew Marianski is a fractional CFO, an investor, professor, and actually multiple-time guest if you're listening to this show. Heather Twelson is founder and CEO of Arena, an Inc. 5000 fractional CFO firm based in Washington, D.C. And then Terry Inslow has had multiple has had finance roles in various industries with several well-known and smaller companies. However, I want each of you to provide, you know, folks for the first time who are meeting you, uh, just share a little bit about yourself and and who you are and what you do. Andrew, do you want to kick us off?

Guest Backgrounds And Career Paths

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, sure. So I've had a kind of varied career. So I started off in sales, then to investment banking, and then to corporate finance for a number of years, and then general management at a couple of um on the finance side of things, and a couple of multi-billion dollar retailers. And uh then I shifted years again and an investor in real estate and um uh private equity um on the smaller side of things. And um then I sort of fell into the fractional CFO world uh just through networking and talking to people and entrepreneurs and business owners and hey, could you give us a hand with this? And one thing led to another, and I really like the work, so that's how that's how that worked. And then my most recent um vocational jaunt has been, as you mentioned, Scott, um teaching at the University of Maine. Um I'm actually in Florida right now, but uh I live in Maine, so um, but uh yeah, teaching at the University of Maine and teaching not surprisingly economics and finance and small business and things like that. And it's just um that's also been a really rewarding uh endeavor for me. So that's me in a nutshell.

Scott 2:38

Thanks, Andrew. Uh Florida might be a little bit a little uh better place in Maine right now, I'm imagining. In in mid-February.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

Yeah.

Scott 2:46

Uh Heather, do you mind uh telling some folks a little bit about yourself too?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Sure. Heather Twassen, uh career in banking uh prior to starting Arena, Fractional CFO in accounting. Um, and I uh I was in the small business division um at a couple large banks and uh realized that they were missing this in their business as we talked to clients. So uh really wanted to um to build something that helped small businesses that kind of gave them uh the things that uh they shouldn't have to be thinking about um to get the business going. Located uh right outside Washington, D.C., our offices are in Ruston, Virginia. And um yeah, excited to be here today, Scott.

Scott 3:25

Great. Thank you, Heather. And and Terry, please tell us about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

I am Terry Yenslow, and I'm here in Richmond uh with Scott, as he mentioned. Uh I have held a variety of roles both in finance and MA at large companies, family help companies, and also private equity backed companies. Most recently had been a CFO in private equity backed companies, and then recently have made the shift to launch my own boutique firm, taking all of that experience to help uh businesses that are focused on aligning business strategy, culture, and operations to drive growth and transformation. So excited about the journey and the early stages of it, but uh happy to be with everyone here and and learn and uh learn from each of you, and then also think about how we can help uh the audience uh in their businesses as well.

The Non‑Negotiable Metrics

Scott 4:16

Thank you, Terry. Well, let's let's jump right into it. Let's uh I want to start off with maybe Andrew answer asking this question of what are some of the metrics or numbers that all businesses should know.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Yeah, and just for your audience for complete candor, Scott gave us a little bit of preview on this uh the questions ahead of time, so I did think about this a fair amount. And for me, the the one, especially with the smaller businesses that may not have a uh a full-time financial staff, you know, I mean they have a bookkeeper or a or a controller or thing like that, but they don't have you know a planning and analysis group, is it's the it's really that 13-week cash flow forecast and knowing it, like really knowing it. I mean, everyone anyone can just roll numbers forward and create an Excel file that you know does ratios, but to actually have a a process that is uh legitimate and and predictable and consistent um is huge. And um, so I I would say that is my number one uh forecast or number one metric for business health that I would recommend to business owners, particularly on the smaller side. And as I think all of us know here, the number one cause of failure with small businesses is cash flow issues. You can have a super healthy customer base and everything else, but you can just caught get caught in that pinch. So that'd be my number one by a long shot.

Scott 5:32

Thanks, Andrew. Well, Terry, maybe what what would you like to add to that?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Well, I would say cash flow is what I had written down in caps with an exclamation mark because uh particularly with small businesses. And and to Andrew's point, it's not just understanding the 13-week cash flow, but but really knowing it and the seasonality, because you could be a really health, healthy cash flow business from a full year, but might have times that you would um have pinches in your in your cash flow performance. So it's important to understand that. And then just the general um, you know, there's a lot of metrics that you can look at. It could vary by businesses, but you're really looking at your revenue growth rates, the diversification of your revenue and understanding those levers. And then um profit margin rate, um, really looking closely at that. And you know, any company can have your different metrics that go to that. Um, but it's really the sign of strong cash flow and strong operating profit margin rate, and what could be the drivers to impact that.

Scott 6:38

Well, I know cash is always, I think any CFO or person in finance is going to say cash first. But Heather, I'm I'm I'm sure you have something else to add to that too.

Underrated Numbers Owners Miss

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Well, I couldn't uh uh agree more with Andrew and Terry here. Um, cash flow is certainly uh certainly top of the list. I'll just add a couple more on uh that uh that I I think are important for businesses. I'll build on Terry's first, which is profit margin uh at the top of the house as all as well as profit margin by product or service sold. There are many times we have uh some of our clients that uh they have one product or service that is actually underwater and don't realize it. Uh so understanding it more at the product and service level as well as top of house. Um, I just like uh just piggybacking on uh Terry's comment there. The other is around the speed of collection. Uh there's a metric out there uh that uh a lot of businesses um benefit from the cash conversion cycle. How fast do you spend a dollar and how fast do you make it? Uh though that is a uh a key metric that um that we track for clients because it tells you if you have late payers and how to start to fix that. Uh that is something that plagues especially the service-based businesses that we serve.

Scott 7:57

And Heather, for our listeners, how would you calculate that cash conversion cycle?

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Yeah, there are many ways you can calculate it, but the idea is it's the days outstanding uh between when you spend your first dollar and then when you receive payment for that sale of product or service sold. Uh, in the inventory-based business, there's a specific formula. It's pretty simple to just Google and it starts with your inventory and when you purchase it, uh, as well as any marketing you put around that will also contribute to that metric. Um, and then in the service, uh, in the service-based businesses, it will be around when you pay your people. Uh, your larger expenses, such as rent and insurance as well, will uh factor into that.

Scott 8:39

Thanks. And again, as I mentioned before, I think cash, I expect the cash to be up there. Profitability is really key. Maybe throw a little one, uh a slightly different uh uh on the on this on this question and just open this up. What's an underrated metric or number that maybe isn't always talked about, but still really important? And again, just open this up in case anybody has an idea.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

I'll throw in there uh cost to acquire a customer, uh, knowing how much uh kind of marketing and uh human uh expense goes into acquiring a customer, uh, whether that is a retail-based company or a service-based company.

Scott 9:22

Any other any other thoughts or something else that might I mean when I think about it, I don't know, I always try to look at the debt level. That's always to me kind of important one. Uh, but any any other ideas before we before we move on?

Moves That Put Firms At Risk

SPEAKER_01 9:36

I think it's not as much on the metrics that are underrated, but more to jump off what Heather was saying is making sure you understand all the critical levers underneath the metrics. Often sometimes people look holistically and feel good about things or see trends that they don't understand. And it's perhaps because there isn't that uh appropriate breakdown of that by by specific products or whatever your business is at that lever to be the true underlying business levers.

Scott 10:09

Yeah, I I agree. I think that's important knowing what your business drivers are. I'd c constantly harp on that as well. Um well, you know, cash, profitability, absolutely very important. What and maybe Terry, since since we're we're we're talking there, what are some of the most dangerous actions that a business could take that would really you know cause harm to the business financially?

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Uh so one of the things that I think that well, there's a couple of things, but um, particularly since I be deal a lot with businesses that are in transition, it's really relying on past methods and successes to think that that would be the right solution or path for future successes. So what served you as a startup organization or as a founder who had to do everything on their own may not be serving you for the next stage of the company. And so it's really important to um have a network around you and actually to look holistically at where you want to go and what might need to change related to that. And I think that's where I really see, I mean, you call it you, you know, you hear the founder trap, you hear all those other type of things, but that is usually you're relying, particularly if something goes wrong or it's time of stress, you're gonna go back to your old habits versus the solution might be very different than what you have done in the past or what might have served you well in the past. Uh, and then I think the other big thing too um is just really expecting bad news to get better. Um, usually it doesn't unless you're making a major um change. Um, but then I would also say on the flip side, don't also act too quickly for bad news if you don't really understand um what is the driver. Uh, so it's really um it can be dangerous if if people don't have the skill set to objectively look at what's driving the challenges, formulate a um a solution, pressure test it with your team or your advisors, and then act quickly uh to address and and not expect that you know if you're having if you have a big customer loss, you probably can't sustain your same expense level for a period of time. And the longer you wait, the more challenging it can be.

Scott 12:33

Very good, Terry. Uh Heather, what what what could you add?

Real‑World Wins And Warnings

SPEAKER_03 12:36

Um I'll build on something again, Terry said. I like all your themes today, but one thing uh uh just to build on what you said around the past uh not being uh the path to the future necessarily. Um I do find that there are a lot of businesses out there that have a plateau point uh in their growth. And uh I think talent is one of the one of them uh that prevents someone from uh you know really taking growth to the next level. And I'll get more specific on that and say that it's the generalist mindset, moving it to a specialty mindset. Uh I see that all the time, where a general generalist stays in a deep role for way too long, and vice versa, you have a specialist that needs to be a generalist. So knowing when to pivot from a more of a startup where you know you're wearing multiple hats and you're covering marketing, finance, and sales to uh to a place where you have specialists covering those areas. And that seems to be like really like a slingshot for a lot of businesses when they realize that they can move from a generalist mindset and get the specialty expertise in-house. And when you can make those choices, you really can propel your business.

SPEAKER_04 13:59

Andrew, do you have anything to add?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Yeah, uh sorry. Um I was just listening to Heather and Terry there. That what which I totally agree with everything they said. What was the actual specific question that I was trying to because I Yeah, absolutely.

Scott 14:12

So this was um one of the more one of the most or more dangerous actions that a business could take.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Scott 14:17

That could could cause, you know, that that big harm to the to the organization.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Yeah, I I would say that it's kind of it's sort of the other other side of um some of the things that Terry and Heather said, but uh chasing sales too fastly, too aggressively. Um so if they've got um you know customers are going really, you know, the sorry, the um your customers are really excited, they've got lots of orders. Again, as we mentioned earlier, you can run into cash flow problems. You can also um uh very often uh run into problems with the IRS because you've spent all your profit in buying more inventory to chase the sales, and then you get this bill from the IRS, and they don't care that you've reinvested your profits. They they they need to be paid for last year, right? So um that's a thing for sure. And then the other one is um it's all again, it kind of all can be a different flavor of the cash thing, but uh if you're growing really fast, um you can again find yourself in a place where you need more cash to make payroll, because again, it's all tied up in inventory, and you can then be what do you do? Uh you max out the revolver, which goes back to a comment you were making thought about like you take on too much debt. And sometimes it's accidental or you put it on a on a credit card, right? You just say, I gotta I gotta do it this month and the next month, and all of a sudden you can lever up your balance sheet with a ton of debt that can be really expensive. Or on the flip side, even if you take on more equity, if you're doing it sort of reactively in a pinch, you can end up getting with partners that have really painful terms, or ones that you're like, I'll take you because I don't know who you are, and you're in with like, you know, like loan loan sharks, not really, but you know what I mean. Like people that like people write you an equity check, but then they've got all kinds of control, or they might have different ideas about the business with you. So um again, I I it just sales are awesome, but please, you know, uh go into them uh if you're in that opportunity very thoughtfully and and don't uh don't get caught up in the excitement and set yourself set set a trap for yourself down the road that you're gonna step into.

Scott 16:14

Yeah, I think that's a really good point in in Andrew, in that you know, I think most a lot of people think about a business failing because of not enough sales and they don't appreciate the uh the risk of failing because you're growing too much.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

I personally really like uh examples, real life examples.

Scott 16:37

So Heather, maybe maybe we can start with you. Uh what's kind of I'm gonna throw out craziest but unique, however you want to go with this. What's kind of the craziest situation, good or bad, that you've experienced working with a business or client?

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Um I'll give a positive and a negative one. Uh so let's see, I uh I'll give two negative ones because I think uh people like to hear the negative stories too. Hopefully they learn from them. I had uh a client that approached us uh to lend them a hand and they had not paid taxes in five years, and uh we're gonna have to shut down the business. Uh so I I, you know, piece of advice out there, yeah, you really can't get away from it. Um you might as well stay up with it. Uh, and even if you do so in a partial way, um, meaning like a good faith effort, even if it is not a hundred percent accurate because of XYZ uh in your um in your tax filing, uh just file. Uh so that's uh that's one thing I've seen uh put a business that was family-owned under and uh a family in a pretty rough situation. Um the other I have seen is I've seen a business that was fairly new uh get a contract that was way too big, to Andrew's point. And uh and they they could not keep up and they failed on the contract, they couldn't meet the service level agreement that they had put in place, and uh they were way out over their skis. Uh so knowing who you are, at what stage you are, and playing in that field uh is is super important uh because you you can get out over your skis and uh and not be able to have the operations be able to support the expectations of a large enterprise client. Uh so that's uh another one that I think is probably it like it's they were able to um acquire an operations team uh and uh and pull that one off uh after they got the kind of the what I'll call the first citation from the enterprise uh that they had not met the SLAs. So they did recover from it. So it was kind of like a win in disguise, uh really made them grow up fast.

Scott 18:49

Yeah, so sometimes uh surviving is is the best teacher. Uh Andrew, well could you share uh an example or two that you might have?

Surprises From 2025’s Economy

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Yeah, uh on the sort of craziness, and this is probably gonna just reveal more about me, but I'm I'm very I'm a very financially conservative type person. Um, but on the I've helped a few companies with capital raising. And um it's just interesting to me that uh um particularly if you're looking about like on the more equity side of things like venture capital or or um uh like um convertible debt types of things or angel investors that I've worked with businesses that just need a little bit of money to execute on a um solid, you know, not crazy, but uh growth plan and they and it makes all sense and got crickets from the investment community. And then I had another one, other ones that were bleeding cash, no awesome plan to get through to the other side, but they were in a in a hot industry that um you know investors saw potentially, you know, like you know, saw stars in their eyes and like get a thousand time return, and even though like that's probably not gonna happen. But how much more money was forthcoming uh on the on the second opportunity? Um for me, if I was writing checks, I'd be like on the first one, I'd rather, you know, consistently get something, um, you know, have a have a better chance and maybe a lower return. But um but again, on the you know, in the in the venture capital world, that's the game they're playing. They they write checks and they know that seven out of ten aren't gonna amount to much, but if they can get one home run out of that, it's it's it's great. But it's just a bit of a because it's always strikes me is how much money is sloshing around there um for businesses in in hot industries, knowing that there's probably not a great chance they're gonna actually make it. But so anyway, I don't know if that it's crazy, but it's crazy to me that um that there's all these people out here willing to write these checks with very little um chance of getting it back. So I guess the sort of lesson there is um, you know, for for business owners and entrepreneurs, there's there's a lot. You can money can be around if you can tell a good story that excites people. Um and it's it can almost be disconnected from the current reality of your business. So that's kind of where my head went when I saw the went when I saw the word craziness or heard the word craziness.

Scott 21:05

Yeah, it can be a bit crazy where people are willing to spend their spend money, right? Or or where they're willing to invest. Uh Terry, love to hear what what you might have.

Sabbaticals, Reframing Work, And Teams

SPEAKER_01 21:15

Yeah, it's actually funny when you asked this question because I deal in turnarounds and transformation. So I think I almost am a little numb to crazy because it is a large part of what I I kind of come in after the fact. Uh, but I have a couple things. One thing that has always stuck with me is there was one business that I was working with, um, and we were having a lot of problems on revenue decline, and we were trying a lot of different things to improve it. And then I finally went up and had some conversations with some customers. And what we recognized was the decline was happening. Customers were leaving us because there was a promotion of a certain product that we were doing and incentivizing the outreach team or The team that you took the calls. It was uh uh the client would call in to place their orders. And they didn't like that they were getting so much pressure to buy these certain products. So they just stopped calling this company and started going to other competitors. And we never would have thought that this generic promotion that was um really you know driving obviously some profitability, but not enough to mitigate any sort of risk. And we turned that promotion off and then rebounded a lot in our sales. And obviously, we went back to the clients and said we've stopped doing this. Um, feel free to call us. But that was just kind of one of the most unusual things. And it was it was kind of funny as you, you know, spent so much time trying to figure out all of these things, and it was a more simple solution. Uh, you know, I think the other thing it's common now for me, but I say this because maybe people haven't experienced it as much, is when you are combining or buying and combining two companies together uh in the integration phase, uh, the disconnect between the leaders who first buy the company and then the individuals within the company, you know, they're going through the change curve and the paralysis that occurs and the absence of sales that might occur right post bringing the two businesses together. But the minute you put in a compensation plan and help people understand how they will be measured and bring people along more quickly, it can shift really quickly. And I uh, you know, to me, I think that that felt really um unusual and crazy at first. Um, but now it just it's very understandable and it's a really repeated pattern that I've seen in multiple um acquisitions. So um bring those more as, you know, there's a lot of other interesting stories, but um, you know, I bring those more as examples to help others as they're navigating through those type of processes. You know, it might be something that you weren't expecting that's really causing the problem. And you know, bringing people along culturally will really positively impact the financials, and and you might not um plan or expect for that.

Scott 24:16

Yeah, those are all great. And I I know I'm not on the panel, but I might share one that I think we'll we can all appreciate here and had a relatively new client, and they needed new, they needed somebody to come in and clean up the bookkeeping. So while those individuals brought helped them bring somebody in, and as they were cleaning those up, yeah, started having conversations with the founder. And only one or two, two uh two or three months in, you kind of start seeing some questionable things, start asking questions. Uh again, the bookkeepers are still kind of catching up to today. Long story short, or or short story even quicker, he comes to me and says, Scott, I'm short on payroll. Great. I mean, it was it was a little bit out of the blue, had a couple of I'm gonna say excuses. And so it worked with him that to kind of figure out how we get through the next payroll, the payroll after that, he comes back and says, Oh, again, I've I've I've got this problem with cash. And and yeah, it just at that point wondering something was kind of off. And what it turns out is that he had a lot of personal expenses going through the business. And so that's one is try to limit your personal expenses going through the business. The second is that he just wasn't being open, he wasn't being completely open to the bookkeepers, he wasn't being completely open to me. And I really wish he had it before it was too late. And the company ended up closing down. And you know, I what I would say is if you're gonna be open to anybody or or completely honest to somebody, be honest with your bookkeeper and your CFO. Throw your CPA in there or two, but because they're they're gonna they're gonna help you with those numbers and they're gonna help you make through a tough time. And it's really it can be really hard to do that on your own. So I'm gonna throw that out there as my kind of craziest situation. That was unfortunate, very unfortunate. I think I could have helped him a lot more with to maybe save the business. But you can only do so much based on the information you're given, and especially when you don't know the full story. So that's my crazy situation, just to throw that in there on on top. Um you know, we're we're rolling into 2026. It's gosh, it's our almost almost through February. But what I like to hear is Terry, maybe we can start with you. Is what surprised you the most about 2025?

Practical Advice Every Owner Can Use

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Well, this is a little bit of a loaded question for me because I surprised myself the most in 2025. Of uh, I've always uh done what you you would define as the right thing of the corporate role or the next um uh traditional type role, venturing out on my own. I took some time and did a uh brief sabbatical and then also have uh launched the consulting company. And the thing that has been so wonderful through the process is the number of other people as I've been able to share my story and my desire to work um doing well by also doing good, uh, the number of other people that are willing to help me. Scott, you were one of them. I just, you know, helping share your story, help me understand the network of people that are out there to help other people. And it's a really exciting um uh time in my life and uh uh been an exposure to some really interesting and great people. I would also say just in general with 2025, it's been um a really hard year, I think, for a lot of people is what I've heard a lot of people and companies, you know, you're kind of emerging. You know, obviously COVID was a long time ago, but there were certain things that occurred and trends that have occurred. There's been also, you know, macroeconomic um pressures and changes in the business. Uh and it's been interesting to observe people that are taking lessons learned and responding positively with those, or people that are kind of going back to old habits out of a comfort zone. Um, and so I would say it's um it's just been an interesting time to observe where I think we maybe were in a little bit more holding patterns um for a couple of years.

Scott 28:35

And Teria, I'm gonna thank you for that. I'm gonna go back to one point you made because I think I think this can very well uh uh align with what founders and owners uh deal with is coming off of, let's say, a sale, right? They sell their business and they're not sure what to do next. So how did your that that kind of time off sabbatical period? Do you have any thoughts or or recommendations or you know, positive or negatives about how that went for you?

SPEAKER_01 29:06

Absolutely. I would say it was uh much needed uh and um very transformative. And I think you know, many of small business owners, many of us on this call, you know, we work a lot, we put a lot of time and effort. Uh I have uh a daughter that's now gonna be graduating college and a son that's gonna be graduating high school. Uh so juggling a lot of things over the years, uh, I haven't always taken the time by myself to go and and travel and um just relax and reflect and then really think about I've what I've done here to this point in my career, and then where do I want to spend the later um stage? I don't want to talk age or anything at this point, but uh I enjoy working. I want to work, but I want to work differently for the the um back half of my career, if you will. So taking that time was very instrumental. I think I'm coming back. Uh, I've also been working with an executive coach. I've done a lot of uh additional reading and really taking time to uh reform. And I think that that has been um just a really nice thing for me. But I also feel like I'm showing up differently as a leader and I can more effectively consult and I can more effectively help others because I'm in a more grounded state based on taking that time. And I I think particularly if you're the generation that I, you know, grew up with, it's you know, put your head down, grind, persevere. Uh, it's it's almost unusual to step back. I felt very unusual about it. I felt very um uncomfortable um taking that time, but I couldn't even imagine not doing it now. And then the number of opportunities that have surfaced after what I you you could maybe be like, am I maybe throwing my career away by just taking time off and not doing this? And it's like, no, I'm actually creating space for new opportunities that are very fulfilling. Um, and uh, so I just highly, it's probably a little too much information or a little too personal, but I really believe in taking care of yourself so you can be the most effective leader. And that's not often what people will do. They actually, you know, my tendency is to work more lean in, you know, figure it out versus um, you know, taking the time to recharge. And I now understand the value of it where didn't necessarily have exposure to it before to understand the value of it.

Rapid‑Fire: KPIs, Risks, Quick Wins

Scott 31:47

Well, Terry, thanks for sharing that. Because I I really I talk to business leaders and I think that's a big question on them is you know, they sell the business or they're so in that, you know, taught some that take this kind of some type of sabbatical. And it's rare that they come back and say, ah, I wish I hadn't done that. So thank you for sharing with that.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Right, right. Well, and I think just to add on a little bit of you know, one of the topics that you had asked about was just what's so critical or advice you'd give to business leaders. It's also to build a team around you so you have the time. You know, so many founders are small business owners. It really is, you know, they need to be a generalist for a period of time. But to Heather's point, they need to also at the right time surround themselves with the right leadership team. Uh, one, for their own health and um, to ensure that they have the space and the time to come back. Also to create and develop leaders. Leaders want to do well and have their own accountability and autonomy. And then, you know, third, if you're intending to sell it at some point, we've walked away from businesses that we were going to acquire that it was so centralized around the founder, it was too much risk to buy the company because you were thinking the company might fall apart without the founder. Um, so you know, there's a lot of reasons why you would want to do it, um, both for your own personal development, but truly for the overall business health as well.

Scott 33:13

Really good point. Uh Andrew, do you mind sharing with us what what maybe surprise you in 2024?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah, it's and it surprised me in 2024 and 2023. I'm I keep waiting for the uh recession. It's I I just feel like I've been waiting for one for a long time. Uh and one of my uh favorite quotes is failure is caused by a failure to plan for failure. So um I'm always I'm personally I'm always thinking about like oh what could go wrong and all this type of but and then with working with clients, like, yeah, we should be thinking about what happens if your sales fall off because we go into a recession and all you know, people pull back and businesses pull back and all that kind of thing. So but it still hasn't happened despite the astronomical stock market valuations and everything like that. But um, so that was the that's still the surprise for 2025 and it's bleeding into 2026 for me. So we'll see.

Scott 34:01

It's seems like it's always on the uh over the horizon, right?

SPEAKER_04 34:05

Yeah, yeah.

Scott 34:06

So Hatha, you you you I feel like you might come from this from a different little different perspective, simply you're you're a CFO, you're a fractional CFO, but also you have a uh a business yourself. So what what surprised you in 2025?

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SPEAKER_03 34:19

Sure, yeah. So 2025 to the clients that we served, I was expecting it to be kind of a down year for them. And I was pleasantly surprised by the optimism and the tenacity that our clients uh they really uh put forward their best foot in a lot of ways. So if you think about 2025, uh especially in my area, we had a new administration, uh, we had the tariff talks, we had a government shutdown. Uh we have a large um uh government contracting uh industry segment focus uh for uh CFOs that just cover that space. And that uh practice actually grew. And it was uh pretty amazing to me that uh so many um small business owners still had the push in them and they still had the desire to grow with all this uncertainty that they could not control around. Uh so that it was uh kind of my big aha in 25. Still seeing that like investments in uh the categories of increase for our client base was sales and marketing. Like that is uh pretty impressive in a time when you can't really control the interest rates, you can't really control the tariffs and the shutdowns, et cetera. But we saw increases in those categories of spend for our client base. And that is something that just shows that small businesses, while they can pivot really fast, they want to be aggressive in times where there is uncertainty because they're the ones who can move forward and take advantage of it.

Scott 35:54

Yeah, resiliency is is a is a great uh attribute to have. And I think there's a whole lot more of that in the bit small businesses than people really realize. Well, we all I always like to wrap up shows with one or three takeaways that that our our listeners can can put in place. And I want to expand that just a little bit with this group. And what are the top one to three pieces of advice you'd give to a business owner? Sight unseen, that and feel free, it doesn't have to be quick, or maybe maybe kind of summarize it up at the end, but what are those one or two three pieces of advice? And and Heather, I'm gonna I'm gonna start with you if you don't mind.

SPEAKER_03 36:35

Sure. Um I uh site unseen, meaning I haven't seen your balance sheet, I don't know your customers, I don't even know what you sell. Uh so and I would probably say this is uh the finances and your back office of ensuring that um you're buttoned up in that regard is uh is quiet. Uh and there are many other parts of your business that make noise: your clients, your customers, your sales team, your marketing team, uh, the staff, etc. And oftentimes the back office and the finance component of your business is forgotten. Don't forget about it first off. And then from that, uh make sure that you have a plan. When I first started Arena back in uh 2019, I launched this survey, and the survey was to 450 businesses across the United States. And there were many findings in that survey, but I'll just be uh give one snippet that I think would be really helpful to the audience. And it is that 90% of businesses have no financial plan when they start. They don't have it at year one, they don't have it at year two, and by the time they get to year five, 50% of businesses fail. And that stat hasn't changed in decades. So I truly believe that a financial plan starting with your revenue targets and then layering in your expense base to achieve those targets is uh a real big key to success.

Scott 38:07

I like the quiet analogy there. I I've not really thought about it in that regard, but you're right. You you it should be quiet for the right reason. Uh so that yeah, I like that. Uh Andrew, what what what one to three uh pieces of advice would you provide to a business owner?

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah, sure. Um and actually I'll jump on the quiet thing I've uh comment because I think it's a great one as well. And I kind of joke with people, especially when I was in the bigger companies and with the teams, like when things are going well, everybody forgets about finance. When things hit the fan, everyone's calling you. You know, that that's how it works. You want to get ahead of that. I think it was just part of what Heather's talking about, so pay attention before things are really ugly. So I think that's a great point. Um so I would say uh I'm gonna combine three things, but two I've already mentioned on. So certainly the cash flows, like get really crisp on that and make sure you can forecast that. Also, going back to my planning for the worst kind of thing, make sure you do your cash flow forecast and you do a scenario where you lose your biggest customer or you know, things that could take you out. Like what would you do? And you want to think through those those bad scenarios before they happen, when things are calm and you can have contingency plans in place, so because you're not so you won't be surprised. That'll be the second one. Um the third one, um, and actually I'll pick you back a bit off of uh Heather with the financial planning and maybe blow it out a bit more to the strategic planning, even one of the things I run into uh time and time again is when people do a strategic plan, like at its highest level, it's like, where are you today? Where are you going, and how are you gonna get there? That's kind of it, right? But where people, especially the larger the company I found, um, or when it's a company with you know multiple um owners or an executive team or whatever, they don't spend enough time agreeing where they're at today. And you need to spend a lot of time with the people around you in the business, the different heads of the group, and say, this is where we're at, right? Right? And you keep asking because if you don't, because people gloss over and they're like, hell everyone, but then if they gloss over it, you've got like five people in a room with different pictures of today's reality, and then you go give them a future target to go after, and they're all starting from a different place and it causes a disaster. And you're like, wait a minute, you and it causes all this rework. So you just spend spend four times as much time as you think aligning on where you're at today than you think you need, and I think that will serve everybody really well.

Scott 40:18

That's my you would think that knowing where you are today would be the easiest part. You're right. It's often not. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Well seriously thinking about where you are today.

Scott 40:28

Well, that's true. Yeah, be being honest about yourself about where you are. Really good point, Terry. Uh well, what do you have for us, Terry, for for the for your one or three pieces of advice?

SPEAKER_01 40:38

Uh well, I love both what Andrew and Heather uh pointed out. So uh reiterate uh that advice. I would also say going kind of on the multi-year planning thought process is really thinking through, you know, so many people just plan the next year, or to Heather's point, maybe don't have a uh a very granular detailed plan. And it's really starting with a you know five years out or something, whatever time periods um the most appropriate. And where do you want to be both financially from an overall business positioning where you personally want to be as the founder or the leadership team, and there, where do you want the overall organization to be? And and really start there almost from a whiteboard perspective, because sometimes when you're looking at the near term, you might get too hung up on where you are and um can't really see the force for the trees. And then when you're doing that out-year look, that's really your North Star. And then when you're thinking through the people and aligning, also developing your shared values as an organization and and really having your leadership team in that whole discussion. And then the critical step, and this aligns with what Andrew was saying, is then bringing that back to where are you now and building a multi-year plan of what do you need to accomplish each year to ultimately get to the final strategy. Because I find either companies will do a budget for the current year, which maybe isn't strategically informed, or the strategy's so far out that um you're not necessarily translating it into actionable steps that people can do today. And and then the biggest advice is strategy isn't just for the leadership team. Push it down through the whole organization. Help people want to have a purpose and be part of something bigger. So making sure that they understand what their daily KPI is that then would tie to the multi-year strategy and that they're part of it and making a difference and really rewarding the success. You know, people want to be treated fairly, win, do well, um, and celebrate their success and that positive reinforcement. And um, you know, just reiterating as well, too, on the investing in your infrastructure. So constantly kind of looking at where you are as a company and what's the right infrastructure for where you want to go. Uh, too often, it it's very it's been a great part of my career success, but too much of um I'm often brought in where that has been an afterthought. And then um, you know, it's been quiet until it's not, and then you're in a fire drill mode um to fix it and um and really just continuing to um to reinvest in the company. And then I pointed out just really as a leader of an organization, make sure you build your team around you. Um and um, and then just lastly, if you treat your people well, they understand where they're going, the financials start to take care of themselves if you really understand your customers, treat your people well and reward success.

Scott 43:55

Well, thanks, Terry. That that that was that was great. So My first panel for uh on the podcast, I'm gonna do one other thing that I've not done before before we kind of wrap this up, and this is gonna be a really quick speed round. So I'm gonna ask really, I only need like a few words from each of you. We'll we'll cycle through, and I've got f three or four of these. Um figure we'll we'll share these with everybody just to kind of get a quick hit here. All right. So my first one is if you're looking at a business, what is the first number that you look at on their financials? Uh Terry, you want to go first? Uh either net income or operating profit.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

Just figure are they?

Scott 44:34

And again, feel free. This can be repeated as well. This is this this is supposed to be quick.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

All right, Andrew, what have you got? Cash in the bank. Go ahead, Heather.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Net income and uh total revenue.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

Great. All right. What is the biggest risk in a business, Heather? Cash flow. Okay. Andrew? Same cash flow.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

Terry? I'll do I I would agree that that's part of it too, but I would also say not ha strategically knowing where you're going. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

What about the first non-finance area to look at if you go into a business? HR. I'd go with the sales marketing. Go with the leadership team and the culture of the leadership team.

Scott 45:26

Good, great. All right. Um quickest automated win. Like if you go in, this kind of your first thing, you're like, ah, geez, that's always broken. What's your quickest automated win? Like it with a tool or or anything along those lines?

SPEAKER_03 45:41

Uh mine is uh collection. Uh there are still a lot of companies billing and waiting for the check to come in the mail. And billing number one ahead of services uh where you can, and then automating that payment.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

I would say cleaning up books.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

If if it's grown organically and there's just like a million different accounts, not that it's not really automation, but if you clean it up, it feels like it's been automated. So that's what I'd go with.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I was gonna say accounts receivable as well. Um particularly a lot of my experience has been in healthcare, so revenue cycle management and making sure you expedite that as fast as you can.

Scott 46:23

All right. Last one, given that we've I know all of us spend probably more time we want to admit in this tool. Give me your favorite Excel model or Excel formula or trick.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

I'm gonna say uh an AI plugin now. All right.

SPEAKER_02 46:44

Uh I would this isn't really a trick, but when I was in my investment banking days, they encouraged us not to use your mouse. So you have to learn, memorize all the shortcuts, keyboard shortcuts, and that's a massive unlock if you spend a lot of time in it.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Uh I would just actually say I'm at a client right now where I'm using Google Sheets, and I have never realized how much I love Excel, whatever format it has, or whatever uh cell that I'm using. Agreed.

Scott 47:12

It I I I've I've uh begrudgingly used Google Sheets more and more, but I understand what you're going, where we're going up, Terry.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Yes, because I andrew to your point, all the same shortcuts, everything I know is is very different.

Scott 47:24

So yeah. Well, all right. My last ask for everybody is, and this is what we ask in every show, is your a favorite book for podcasts. Feel free to to toss it out, whoever wants to go.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

I'll just it's mine's a little bit less about specific books or podcasts, but I will say Marshall Goldsmith over the years has been really instrumental in some of the things he said in early leadership development. One of my companies, he came to spoke to speak. And a couple of takeaways were think about who will this is kind of morbid, but will be with you on your deathbed. It's and think about that of how you spend your time in addition to just working. And if it's important to you, schedule it, both work and personal. Uh, what got you here won't get you there. Uh, the context of the books is a little different from my style, but it the the concept is really important. I kind of you heard me talk about that earlier about companies as well. And then um Brene Brown with a strong back, soft heart. So being firm, being uh you know, disciplined, both obviously being in particularly in a finance role or other leadership roles, but also having a soft heart and keeping open and not putting up armor um when you're having to help people navigate through uh any difficult times because usually they're scared, it's change, it's hard. Um and uh if you're you're open and thoughtful with them, they'll actually help you with the real root problems that then you can then fix them.

SPEAKER_04 49:02

I'll jump in. Uh I'm gonna give two.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

So the first one is uh it's a book group called a series, or it's five books called Incerto, but it's by this um guy, the same Nicholas Taleb, and he wrote like Black Swan is part of it and Antifragile, and it's just if you want to nerd out on risk and investing, and uh it's really kind of cool. I love it. Um however, having said that, the the book that I've recommended to small business owners and entrepreneurs that they've thanked me the most for is Never Split the Difference, which is a negotiating book written by the head, I think he was, of the um former head of the, I think it was the FBI negotiating task force. So just fascinating. Um and just because, you know, as business owners, you're negotiating with everybody all the time, employees and vendors and customers and blah blah blah. So it's just a wonderful book. So that would be the other one I'd recommend.

SPEAKER_03 49:52

Um my uh favorite is uh Andrew Huberman. Um and it's uh around this take care of yourself, Terry, to your point, earlier in the uh the show. Um it really talks about uh what I really love about Andrew is he brings on um brings on guests all the time. He is a deep thinker, highly analytical, and he gets to the right level where you can gain confidence in his recommendations on whatever he's talking about. Um so I I like his style there, and I also like his focus on uh making you kind of the most optimal being you can be.

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Scott 50:30

Well, thank you. I I love all those, and thank you for coming on board today. This this is uh your insight, your experience, your answers have been fantastic. We've we've run over our usual allotment of time that I asked for, but I think every minute was absolutely worth it. So, Andrew, Heather, Terry, thank you so much for joining me today.

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 50:52

Happy to celebrate your 50th episode with you.

SPEAKER_04 50:55

Yeah. Great. Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

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