Brant Lingle Reveals The Exit You Haven’t Planned Yet (hint, it’s Your Succession)

E#54: In this episode, Scott sits down with Brant Lingle to unpack one of the most overlooked areas of business ownership: succession planning. They discuss why many owners delay or avoid these conversations, how early planning creates more options and better outcomes, and why communication with family, employees, and advisors is critical to getting it right. Brant shares practical ways to get started—from leveraging trusted advisors to building a long-term vision—and emphasizes that a well-executed transition creates clarity, reduces stress, and sets up both the current and next generation for success. 

Book Recommendation: Harvard Business Review

Find out more about Brant Lingle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brantlingle/ 

Find more episodes on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon Music and here: https://budgetyourbusinesspodcast.buzzsprout.com/

Transcript

Welcome And The Succession Problem

Speaker 0:00

Welcome to the budget your business podcast, where small business owners go to learn how to financially plan for every aspect of their business. Let's get started with your host, Scott Geller.

Brant Lingle 0:10

Are they using the S word succession, right? Like are they bringing that topic up just, you know, having and and I think what happens, what I've seen is some folks that will wait late in the game. They've owned the business for 20 years now, like, oh, am I going to retire? I'm your host, Scott Geller.

Scott Geller 0:27

And today I'm joined by Brent Lingle of East River Collaborative and VMA, who is a business coach with some new services that he's putting together and working on. We brought Brant in today to talk about a growing concern that I see with business owners, particularly those that are aging, and that is succession planning. Brent, thanks for coming on board today.

Meet Brent And His New Focus

Speaker 1 0:52

Thanks so much for having me. Glad to be here and be part of the conversation. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 0:58

So for folks who are meeting you for the first time, could you share a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Speaker 1 1:05

Absolutely, happy to. So again, Brent Lingle. I'm with Virginia Asset Management. And I am entering into the world of financial advisory because I've been in the world as a business coach, executive advisor, worked with a lot of family-owned businesses, worked with a lot of business owners on the issue of succession planning. And I started to hear a common pain point for business owners, and especially when they were in the midst of succession planning from the people that were going to be stepping into the new ownership and leadership roles, but also from the current owners was a gap in their financial knowledge, financial literacy, understanding around succession, ownership pertains to finances, and just planning, really in general, financial planning for their business and and for their own future. And so just in the last six, seven months, started to build my practice as uh in financial planning and came on board with Virginia Asset Management and still finishing up my licensing and all those pieces, but really to continue to serve business owners, especially in the succession planning space.

Ask Your Kids Instead Of Assuming

Speaker 2 2:23

Well, Brent, that's an interesting approach. And I like it though. That's uh I feel like you're probably bringing a very unique perspective, and that's part of why I asked you to come on board today. So, Brent, I I I I've heard this, and I also had a client that I've I've been working with for a couple of years. And early on when I was working with him, I asked him about his succession planning. And he has three kids. He was like, No, no, no, none of them want it. So then I asked him, Do you know? Like, did you have you actually asked them? And and he said, you know what? I I never have actually asked them. He came back and said, you know what? I actually talked to them. My oldest daughter, no interest, going in a completely different son's in college, actually worked in the business uh on the construction side, saw how hard it is, said he really didn't have any interest. But then the youngest daughter, who was still in high school, indicated kind of a maybe. And my client was really surprised that she would even consider it. Now, obviously, she has a long road before she even get anywhere close to that, being in high school, but still he he had no idea. Did do you see the same thing?

Speaker 1 3:32

Yeah, what often happens is this conversation, to your point, like doesn't happen where it happens very late in the game. And I love that in this scenario, you pose that question to you know, this client, and and they thought, you know, I've never actually they just they just assumed, right? And but then they say, well, let me ask rather than assume. And I think that's the best move to make, you know, what is when you're starting a business, even in your first few years, that's a great time to just be thinking about where where what's the end game, you know, because if you don't have the end goal in mind, uh how do you plan? How do you make decisions, right? You're just kind of dealing with the day-to-day and being reactive rather than intentional. So if you're even if you're young in business ownership and your kids are little and you're like, well, of course, they're they they have to get in, you know, uh past kindergarten, you know, that kind of phase, it's still not too early to think about, well, where is your business going and where will this be in 10, 15, 20 years? And what do you what are you trying to create, you know, uh, and where do you want to kind of pass this on to future ownership and whether that's your family, it could be key employees. Obviously, you might look to just exit and sell it, you know, there's lots of options, of course. And so I love in this case where this was a business owner that had, you know, coming-of-age kids and had the conversation with them and realized, huh? Well, now that that to me, that's a very different scenario for his thinking about the company over the next 10 years. Because if this his youngest is in high school, well, in 10 years, they're not still gonna be in high school. So they could be in a position where they're starting to learn about ownership, they're starting to maybe have some management training, you know, things like that.

The Best Time To Start Planning

Speaker 2 5:26

And I think that timing is is interesting. You you touched on a fact that when they're an owner, when they're starting a business, should be thinking about the end game. And I agree 100%. It's probably rare and difficult for a lot of business owners to think that way. With that said, is there an optimal time where owners should really be thinking about succession planning?

Speaker 1 5:48

Well, if you put it, let's just put it in the parenting context for a second. When do you start thinking about paying for college, let's say? Now, again, not everybody's going to college, not every everyone who has kids is has a kid that's going to go to college. But often parents start thinking about college planning and, you know, 529 plans and all that. Often when their kids are in kindergarten, first grade, second, you know, so they're not even close to it, but they realize, hey, if we want to have, you know, college is expensive, you know, diapers were expensive, college is even more expensive. So if I'm going to be prepared for that life event and try to set my kid up for success, I want a good 10, you know, 15-year window where I can prepare for that. So what often happens is people are not thinking about succession until maybe it's five years and they say, hey, I'm 55, I'm 60. I want to, I don't want to keep doing this. I want to sell this business by the time I'm, and they usually have a target date. What they don't realize is there's a lot of time behind them that had they had that same thought process earlier in the game, just have a conversation. You know, you don't have to necessarily create a concrete plan, make major decisions, but start to build the relationships with various advisors to create a succession plan and be thinking, you know, five, really more than that 15 to 20 year scenario. It's just a it's smart because if you think about it, why are you why are you a business owner? You have a you have a skill, you have a passion, you have a a craft, you have, you know, you're building something. And so it's why would you build something just for a few years? Most people who own businesses are building something to make it bigger, stronger, better, more sustainable, right? They want it to be successful. They want it to be able to, you know, fund their retirement years or create a legacy or create assets for future generations. And in, you know, whatever it may be, whatever their motivation is, usually they're not saying most business owners don't say, I'm just gonna build this for three years and then I'm out. That's not typically the case. So helping people think further down the road, I think, gives them more options and more probability for success the longer that kind of on-ramp to succession.

First Steps And Who To Call

Speaker 2 8:15

And where does an owner really like how does an owner get started? Where specifically, what are they like, what are the first steps?

Speaker 1 8:23

Just in terms of succession planning in general, I would say, you know, early in your ownership process, you want to make sure, do you have an advisor, do you have a coach? You know, and are they asked, are they using the S-word succession, right? Like, are they bringing that topic up just to just, you know, having and and I think what happens, what I've seen is some folks that will wait late in the game, they've owned the business for 20 years and they're like, oh, I'm probably gonna retire in five or 10 or whatever it's gonna be. Reach out to an attorney. And that's not a bad move. It's probably your most expensive move. And you're very you're limiting your um just understanding of the process. You know, attorneys will be involved, but they don't have to be involved. They're usually involved later in the process, not so much earlier. So I I think just reaching out to a business coach, asking them, do you do you work with clients around succession planning? What how do you help, you know, reaching out to a financial advisor, reaching out to their CPA, you know, just saying, hey, I want to, I want to pause. I know we're working on taxes for this year or you know, these kind of financial decisions for the short term, but I want to pause and say, is the next, you know, whether it's a 10-year window, a 20-year window, whatever that is. And if they don't know how to help you, which they may not, who can you enter? Usually they have someone. You know, that's if I may say, if I'm a, let's say if I'm a business coach and I am only dealing with uh short-term, you know, results, short short-term return on investment, I might not be in the long-term game. And I may may say, hey, you know, that's not my specialty, but I actually know a couple other people in my network that that's what they do. Would you like me to introduce you? You know, so I think just whoever you have, if you're business owners, whoever you have in your inner circle as your advisor, um ask them the succession question. And then if they can't start to guide you, ask them for a referral.

Writing It Down And Building Value

Speaker 2 10:29

And I like the the idea of reaching out to those advisors, those that have been through this before. How much of the structure should be on paper? And maybe that's a early and later question of how much should be on paper as you go through this and you know you're not doing it anytime soon, but you're putting together some, you know, some of the ideas and structure versus when you get to the point where you know what's going to happen in the next couple of years.

Speaker 1 10:55

Yeah, I mean, it it it kind of depends probably on who you're talking to. So, like from a financial planning standpoint, you know, if you're if you're working with someone at Virginia Asset Management, which again, I'm I'm learning some of the best practices of how to do this well, they're you know, that financial advisor is asking you about who are your key key employees and what is your retention plan for them. So you're you're building in some deferred comp kind of things. So you're you're trying to build the value and the and the strength of this business. So whether you go to sell to private equity or an individual buyer, or even if you're you know selling to your kids or you know, there's key employees, you're starting to build the infrastructure into your compensation strategy. And then that directly impacts your hiring strategy. So, and and then even if you scale back even beyond that, you say, okay, well, that's gonna help dictate if we're trying to have top quality like executives or management, you know, supervisors, whatever it may be, we know we want to go because we're going after that level of quality of employee that might someday become an owner. We're also gonna go over that, go after that level of client, you know, or customer. And so because we can and we need to. So a lot of these strategies, Scott, will just they'll align and helping business owners think through where do I want this thing to go? Well, that's gonna inform a lot of my current day decisions.

Family Versus Employee Transitions

Speaker 2 12:32

And succession planning, you you mentioned employees, and and I think we we've really been talking more on the family side. How does this or does this process differ if you're talking about a family transition versus maybe an employee transition?

Speaker 1 12:48

I would say if if you're going the ASOP route, that's expensive and complicated. I'm not saying don't go that way, but if you're trying to sell the business to all, let's say all the employees, quote unquote, um that that's a different approach. But if you're going to, I'm going to sell this to my two or three kids when they're at not only of age, but of experience and qualifications, or I'm going to sell this to two or three or four key employees, it's actually not that different. I mean, in some ways, there's an added layer of, I wouldn't say added, I would say there's different layers of complexity where when you're dealing with family members, there's a certain set of expectations on both ends, you know, from generation one to two or you know, whatever it may be. And if you're dealing with employees, there's also a different set of expectations. So, and I I've been in spaces where it's actually a combination where um this is like a fourth generation uh transition, third, you know, third to fourth generation. And the third generation are um two brothers and a cousin, but the fourth generation is going to be a nephew, but then two key employees. So it really just depends on your situation. It can work both ways and even you know, a combination. You really at the end of the day, when it doesn't work is if you're not planning and you're just granting, if that makes sense. I can I can explain a little bit more. But if you're just saying, hey, you're my son, so I'm just gonna grant you the business, what if the son has or daughter or whoever it may be, that next generation has no skill? Maybe they're a terrible leader, maybe they're they'd be terrible in owning a business, they'd make horrible decisions. That's not what's best for the business. So if you have a vision to say, I want this business to continue beyond me into a next, you know, second, third, fourth, fifth generation, you structure it and you have governance. I'm a huge fan, a huge proponent of having governance that provides like accountability and structure within the ownership and the leadership, then it has the highest probability of success.

Speaker 2 15:15

How can you, and this is probably a a uh loaded question here, Brent, but I'm gonna ask it anyways. How can you know or or how can you have an indication if if the next generation is ready to run it?

Communication And Using A Third Party

After The Handoff And Real Peace

Speaker 1 15:32

Great question. And it's it's perfectly loaded. I will be, I'm a huge proponent of Hogan Leadership Assessment Tool. I think it's the premier tool for succession planning, for leadership development, for leadership selection at the ownership, executive, and board level. Hogan, if you've never heard of it, it's been around for 40 years, and it is, I think, the most effective leadership and personality assessment tool. I mean, there's so many great ones out there. And if you're on the you're listening to this, you've probably come across DISC or Predictive Index or Strength Finders, or there's a lot out there that are really, really good for what they do. I think Hogan is the best in the selection and succession process because it's very specific to the individual, and then you can actually work directly through Hogan certified group or company or coach and work directly with Hogan to create what's called a success profile. That's a very powerful tool. So if you're hiring a key executive where you're onboarding some, you know, or you're building a board for your organization, or you're looking at this idea of succession and who's gonna take the rings and run this thing into the future, creating a Hogan-based success profile is your highest probability of insight around is this gonna work or not? And even if the individual, let's say that you say, okay, maybe this is gonna be the successor, maybe they don't quite match what you what the success profile turns out. Well, now you have a clear vision of the gap and you can create a plan to say, okay, over the next six months, a year, two years, whatever it is, these are the skills and this is how you'll grow and develop. And so you're you're setting them up for success. It's not about eliminating them from possible ownership or leadership, but it's more about giving them every opportunity to succeed. And it sounds like for a lot of what you've been saying, communication sounds like a pretty key uh yeah, you know, it's funny because there I have seen this, and I mean, I guess it's not surprising, but it almost feels a little surprising, Scott, where people don't communicate because I honestly maybe they're scared or they don't know how to. So it's you know, I've I've talked to uh folks that were in the fourth generation line to become potentially ownership, right? And missed in succession. And they reached out saying, I've been thinking about this for for years now, you know, three, four, five years, but I haven't known how to have the conversation. And so it feels risky, it feels awkward. I don't know how to bring it up. So one of the things that, you know, on the executive coaching side, but even on the financial advisory side, Scott, honestly, one of the things when you have a trusted advisor like that, have an like an ally in your corner, say, well, you know what? Sometimes having that third party to just initiate the call and facilitate the conversation is just enough to get it started. Just we're we're not making major decisions right now. We're just let's put the cards on the table. Let's know that this is a possibility. Let's identify what might be some of the questions or concerns or risks, or, you know, if if everything worked out great, what would we like it to look like? But but what I see often is, and it takes the initiative of the person, whether that's the business owner or maybe that's the college-age kid that wants to own the company someday, somebody just to say, hey, I want to have the conversation, but I don't know how. And they often they can reach out to someone that they trust that says, no problem, let's let's get the conversation started.

Speaker 2 19:26

Yeah, again, going back to that third party. I think a third party can help in a lot of different situations. We we've really focused on leading up to this process. What have you found works well, say, after the process? After the owner has, you know, they've agreed, they've gone through the process, they've signed the papers, kind of uh now what?

Speaker 1 19:49

Yeah, so it you kind of have like, let's say, those three, maybe there's even four stages of succession. The the first stage, which often happens, is the thinking about it, but no one's talking about it, right? So, so and that that often can last for years, like I gave in that that example. And then there's the okay, I've reached out for help, and now we're gonna start to talk about it. Now we're now we're actually like this starts to become real. And then you kind of sign on to go through the process. So now you're in the succession process. And usually that's a I mean again, depends on the situation. It can be as short as six months. I wouldn't recommend that. Usually it's probably two years at a minimum, 10 years, you know. So it's a longer process of planning. Um and in that when you do that part of it, it's it is written down so it's clear. And then what what the advantage that that brings to all the participants, the, you know, from the current ownership to the future ownership is just clarity, clarity, clarity. And when there's that clarity, the the anxiety around it really reduces. And what also that there's a financial benefit to that too, Scott, that we're name. You reduce the fees that you're gonna be paying to, you know, an attorney or you know, uh a business broker dealer or whatever it may be, because you have a plan in place already, right? So so there's a lot of, you know, there's like that kind of emotional anxiety benefit that gets reduced, the financial benefit because expenses can get reduced. Uh, and then there's the post, so so the the succession process, let's say, is complete and now ownership has transitioned. Now there's it's a new day, right? Who gains from that? Well, the the former owner gains because they know they've done everything they can in their power to make this thing live on without them. And that's a hard thing to do. It's like an emotional process and all, but there's a feeling of satisfaction and and almost like peace. You know, when I I engage with, especially in family owned business space. You know, you're talking to, let's say it's the generation that currently owns it, the main thing that they care about is peace. They want the process that to go through to be peaceful. And once it's done, they want to have a sense of peace or satisfaction that it's in good hands. I don't have to worry about it anymore. Now I can, you know, go live my life, like whether it's, I don't know, sailing on a boat or spending time with my grandkids or volunteering in the community or starting a new business sometimes. You know, whatever it may be, they now are it's almost like a sense of relief. And that same feeling, it which is to me, it's interesting. The current owner, the now the new and current ownership into the future, they get the same experience because the process was done well. They had a lot of clarity, which provided relief and and ease and peace. And then they can start to say, okay, now it's my turn to kind of take this thing. And if they've gone through the process, they go, okay, in 10 years or in 20 or 30 years, it's going to happen again. So they're the best equipped when someone is now coming into ownership of a company that's gone through a succession process that's gone well, they're the best equipped to make it go well into the future for the next handoff, so to speak. They've learned the lessons. Yeah. What to do, what not to do, how it went, and the and the value. A lot of this honestly is is a um it's emotional equity, really, is they gained such a feeling of confidence, peace, clarity that it didn't have to be horrible and confusing and messy. And I want to make sure, let's say if it's a family business, I'm so grateful that my parents did that for me. I want to do that for my kids to make it even more, you know, helpful for them into the future.

Takeaways Resources And How To Reach Brent

Speaker 2 23:52

Yeah, it it sets up in that, you know, going back to the the statement, the kind of the next generation sets up the next generation for success. That's that's great. So, Brand, speaking of lessons learned, this has been very informative around how to approach the succession planning. As we as we wrap up our shows, we always ask for some lessons learned and in the form of one to three immediate takeaways that our listeners could literally put into action as soon as they turn off the podcast. This might be something you already mentioned. It doesn't have to be around succession planning, but it can be. What do you what do you have for us today?

Speaker 1 24:28

Yeah, I would say step one, if you if you haven't thought about succession planning, start to think about it. Even if you're 25 and you own a business. Like just start to think about it. What where does this go in 20, 30, 40 years, whatever it's going to be? Most likely, you know, maybe you're a business owner, you've been at this thing five, 10 years, you've been successful, you've been thinking about it, reach out to someone. If you don't know who to reach out to, reach out to Scott, reach out to me, reach out to your accountant, reach out to your coach, whoever, whoever it may be, financial advisor, and use the S-word to say, hey, I'm thinking about succession. What's my next step? Where should I go? What's nice about that too, Scott, is it's succession planning can be, you know, it's a long road and at times it can feel messy and challenging, but it doesn't have to be. And it's always the earlier you reach out to just have the conversation, the better off you are. And then I would say, you know, there's a lot of resources out there that you can also just do some research. You know, what are the top 10 books, let's say, or podcasts on succession planning? I'll I'll name one that I that I use to I literally do training and and coaching for next generation uh business owners that are entering business ownership and training them how to become owners. And in that space, Scott, what I do is say you're, if especially it's a family owned business, but even if it's not, you're not only doing this for yourself, but you're doing this for the next generation that's going to own this business. So build this for them. And when they have that mindset, they're actually in a better place to do that, especially if it's a second or third generation business, because the first or second generation ownership was building it. They had to build it from scratch. You know, there's entrepreneurship and there's all the challenges that come with that whole journey. But once that thing is an actual entity, it's viable and it's going to last. If you think if I'm building this for the next generation or two, that informs so many of your decisions.

Speaker 2 26:35

Yeah, I like that. And you you started down the path of our ask question we have of uh every guest. You mentioned uh a book or a podcast around succession planning. Do you do you have something you could share with the group?

Speaker 1 26:47

Yeah, I mean, I love Harvard Business Review. I mean, most of what they put out, it's not all, it's like good. So that's a great resource. And they have a handbook. You can get it, you can get a, you know, you can get it on Audible, you can get it a digital copy, a paper copy, a family uh-owned business handbook. So especially if you're in a family-owned business, that's the that's the primary, that's the gold standard that we use when we do training and coaching for family-owned businesses. And I just I highly recommend it. It's it's a it's like a it's a handbook, and what I tell people, so you're not reading a novel, but it it touches on the core areas that you'll need to just learn and develop skill and knowledge around. And when I've used that, it's interesting, Scott. When I've used that in we do workshops with next generation business owners, and they'll get it and they'll say, okay, and they use it and then they get through the process, and then this is literally what they say. Now I want to go back and read it. Now I want to understand it more. There's something about that resource that just inspires them to want to dig deeper. And so I highly recommend that.

Speaker 2 27:53

Thank you for that one. This has been great. I think this is a topic that is often ignored, maybe not on purpose, but incidentally. So it's been really been nice having you walk us through it. Where can people find out more about you?

Speaker 1 28:08

Yeah, so I would say from a financial advisory standpoint, again, in the business ownership space, especially succession planning of Virginia Asset Management is the website. You can find me on the website and reach out to us there. Also, I have my own coaching practice. It's East River Collaborative. And you can find me, Brent Lingle, on LinkedIn. And I'm happy to have a coaching conversation with you as well. So either of those paths will get you to me.

Speaker 2 28:36

Great. And thanks for joining me today, Brent.

Speaker 1 28:37

Thank you, Scott. I really appreciate it.

Closing And Listener Call To Share

Speaker 2 28:39

All right, folks, that's it today. Hope you and today enjoyed today's show and look forward to you joining us in our next episode in Budget Your Business.

Speaker 28:47

If you like the show or found something useful, text someone right now and say, I have a podcast recommendation to check out, budget your business. You can also like the show or find more at your favorite podcast locations, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Amazon. Thank you for listening, and we hope you join us for our next guest on Budget Your Business.