Daring Creatively: Unfiltered
Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast about the real, messy, beautiful side of the creative life. Each episode, Sydney-based artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone and calls an artist friend. No script, no agenda, just a surprise topic to get the conversation going. What follows is raw, honest, unplanned talk about the artist's journey: creative blocks, inspiration, self-doubt, studio life, and everything in between. If you're an artist, maker, or creative soul who's tired of polished highlight reels and wants real conversations about what it actually feels like to live a creative life, you've found your podcast.
New episodes drop whenever the call happens.
Daring Creatively: Unfiltered
Juggling Art and Career with Australian Artist Joshua van Gestel
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast where Sydney-based contemporary artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone, drops a surprise topic into the conversation, and hits record.
In this episode Korynn calls Sydney-based painter, drawer and photographer Joshua van Gestel. Joshua has been making and exhibiting work since 2001, travelling extensively through Australia, Asia and India to seek inspiration, and using his practice to raise awareness for humanitarian organisations across the globe. He also works full time as an educator at Australian Retirement Trust. The surprise topic: juggling the career and art balance.
What started as a conversation about how to hold a corporate career and an art practice in the same hands turned into something neither of them expected. By the end of this conversation they realised they had spent the entire time creating a verbal vision board and holding each other accountable to the future versions of themselves. That is just what happens when two artists get on the phone.
In this honest unplanned conversation two artists talk about what it actually looks like to juggle a high pressure corporate career alongside a serious art practice, how Joshua built his own studio during COVID and how that one decision changed everything, going from feast or famine creativity to a consistent daily practice, why his paintings now take 100 plus hours when they used to take 10, how the studio became a crucial part of his mental health and wellbeing, taking his blood pressure every day and what the results told him about the studio, landscapes of influence and the deeply personal body of work he is currently making, and why your creative passion does not have to wait for retirement.
If you love art podcasts, conversations about the real life of a working artist, or you are someone juggling a career and a creative practice and wondering if it is possible, this one is for you.
New episodes drop whenever the call happens.
Joshua van Gestel Relevant Links:
Joshua's website HERE.
Joshua van Gestel on Instagram HERE.
Join My Inner Circle: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/mailing-list
Visit My Website: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/
Find me on Instagram HERE
My guest today is Joshua Van Gestel, a Sydney-based painter, drawer, and photographer whose work is driven by a deeply emotional response to the world around him. Joshua has travelled extensively through Australia, Asia, and India. With those journeys in forming the basis of three highly successful solo shows since 2021. He's also used his practice to raise awareness for a range of NGOs and humanitarian organizations across the globe. Alongside his art practice, Joshua works as an educator at the Australian Retirement Trust. And what I find so fascinating about him is the way that he has built a genuine creative ecosystem around both worlds, allowing them to inform and feed each other in the most unexpected ways. He even built his own studio during COVID, which is actually how we first connected. I spotted him on Instagram and I've been watching it all unfold ever since. But fair warning, this conversation actually has a lot of layers to it. What started as a chat about juggling, career, and an art practice turned into something we only truly realised right at the very end. We had spent the entire conversation creating a verbal vision board and holding each other accountable to the future versions of ourselves. Now, this was not planned, but this is what happens with the format of this podcast. And honestly, it's exactly what the podcast is all about. So I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode. The topic that I gave him was juggling the career and art balance. So it's a topic I think a lot of us can relate to. Grab yourself a cupper, let's dive in. Hey guys, welcome to Daring Creatively Unfiltered, where I call up an artist friend, throw a surprise topic into the conversation, and hit record. No plan, no prep, no agenda, just two creatives having a chat. I'm Corinne Morrison, Australian artist, cup overflowing personality, and someone who genuinely gets way too excited talking about the creative life. My guests are artists at every stage of the journey. And the conversations that happen when nobody's performing, those are the ones that we really need to hear. So grab a coffee, get into your studio, and come hang with us. This is Daring Creatively Unfiltered. Let's go. Hey, how are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm very well. How are you?
SPEAKER_02I'm good. I'm good. I'm currently standing in front of a panel at the moment trying to resolve as much as I can.
SPEAKER_00Which you had said to me you were going to do this from the studio today. Does that mean you're going to be distracted? No, not at all. Or you may find you may find resolution because of this.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly right. Sometimes I find when I'm not thinking, good things happen because otherwise I'm overanalysing and I just sometimes need to move and get on to things.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah. You know that feeling. I absolutely know that feeling. Um it's it's actually in the moments that you're not in the studio that you probably come up with the solution though.
SPEAKER_02So it's the moments where you're doing nothing and you're not thinking about painting when you're washing the dishes or something.
SPEAKER_00And then So I'm I'm forever getting into trouble actually for dropping things and doing a dash up to the studio to quickly I've said that I'll paint something in a in a minute or two, and I end up being up there for about another hour or so. But anyway.
SPEAKER_02You put post-it notes in your pocket. That used to be my trick. Oh. Just have post-it notes in your pocket and you keep keep jotting things down and then you s run up and stick them on the panel and then go back to what you were doing.
SPEAKER_00Nah, but it never worked for me. They go through the wash or other things before I'd get to them.
SPEAKER_02Fair enough. Fair enough. I wanted to give everyone a bit of context about today because funny story, I was actually thinking back uh before I called you. I was like, did I meet Joshua? I'm like, hang on a second. I know exactly how I met Joshua. It was a video on your Instagram of your studio. Is what was it? Yeah, it was when you started building your brand new studio. And I just, for some reason, you like I I saw the first video that you posted, and this was ages ago. Like, how many years ago was it that you built the studio?
SPEAKER_00Oh god, it was during COVID. So four or five years, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it was around that time, and I remember seeing it start to get built, and I was like, so cheering for you. I was like celebrating for you because it was looking so good. And then when you put all of those recycled bricks on and everything, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I my my builder at the time actually said that it was the best sculpture I've ever created. Um, I imagined he created it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, it's such a such a beautiful space though. And then I was thinking to myself today, oh, what can the surprise topic be? And do you know, do you know, like over these years, like I've been watching you like have your like corporate life, and then I've watched you like connect that into your studio practice in a way, and I've seen like all of those social media videos for um what's the company that you work for again?
SPEAKER_00Australian Retirement Trust. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And the how you're connecting like your art practice even in with some of those videos, and I was like, oh my gosh, that's amazing how you're doing that. And so naturally, the surprise topic I have for you is juggling the career art balance.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. It's can can I actually, I'll admit to you before you called, I've been thinking about now, and I actually wrote down a couple of things that I thought, I wonder which way Corin's going to take these. That was one of them.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep. Because in observation, the one thing that I've noticed the entire time is how you have well, from the outside, you correct me if I'm completely wrong, but I have loved watching the way it seems like you are creating this like creative ecosystem around all aspects of your life. And I think it is something that people ask me more often than not when they are juggling their career plus parenting, plus trying to have their art career on the side. Like, how did all of this come about for you? Because I know that travel came into a a lot for you in the early days of your making. But can you fill everyone in as to kind of this picture and how things came to be?
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yep. Um, so I think, and can I just reflect on, sorry, just you talking about when we first met. Although we first met over the digital world and then we started connecting, we only met in person, what, for the first time about six months ago. We met at a random cafe in the middle of nowhere. Both our families were with us and thought that we were absolutely crazy because we just had this moment of recognition as we yeah.
SPEAKER_02Anyway, um, it was so funny. You saw me and I saw yours like I know you. And then you're like, you know me. And I'm like, you're like Corinne, and I'm like John.
SPEAKER_00I I remember just seeing your mum's face going, what the hell is going on here? But um, I think um for me, um, it's been really interesting that I would never say my art is a hobby, um, but very often it has maybe been um uh it's coming fits and spurts, we'll put it that way, until probably more recently. Um historically I would work hard, save money, and then do these big trips to to faraway places, whether it was China or India or Cambodia or wherever it would be, yeah. And I'd come back and I'd do these big bodies of work that I'd exhibit, and then we'd start the process over again. So I think my work in art in that context used to be really compartmentalized and it had its it probably had a rhythm. And what I've found actually in the last um probably the last actually since COVID, so probably in the last two, three years, those two worlds to your point have really started colliding, and there's I can be in the studio on any other day, or um at some point, or on the road, uh traveling for work, but be very conscious of what I was working on and and doing a lot of writing or a lot of thinking. And there also came this point where they started to, I guess, merge into each other that at work I'd do a lot of um a lot of podcasts through work, I'd do a lot of social media activity. Um, I in my job with Australian Retirement Trust, I'm an educator, um, talking about superannuation and things like that. So, so obviously I'm on stage, I'm on camera, I'm doing things like that. And there was a point where in that process, along with the creative team at work, we said, well, why don't we just lean into it? Instead of having these two, and I was very, very blessed actually with the team we've got. But it was rather than going, well, this is work Josh, and this is art Josh, why don't we just have Josh? And and it has been um beautiful. They have worked at the well, so far, they have worked together, but it's really interesting though, Kine, that although there's elements that have really started working well together, I think it's also in other ways it started to highlight that it is a struggle to to have both your work life and your creative life. And I've been very fortunate that I can blend those. But there is a point where sometimes sometimes it becomes important to keep them separate. Yeah. And sometimes, sometimes it also gets hard when one overtakes the other. And if I'm really frank, that's that's a point I'm in at the moment where I'm um work is very busy, there's a lot going on, and it's at the same time where the universe for a range of reasons is telling me, Josh, you've got to really lean in hard on your art. Um, yeah, so it comes with it, it's it's been wonderful the experience in recent times and what it's afforded me, but it's probably also given me a realization of some of those battles or making sure the balance is right. That's become more apparent in recent times as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I can see how like then connecting both of them, then inevitably your work begins to creep into your sacred space. And it's you know, then you have it's a whole nother battle entirely to then re detach from the work, if you know what I mean.
SPEAKER_00Oh, and even even it's showing um although I've never had problems with people at work knowing about my art, they're very often seeing the the finished product. I've never invited them into the process before. I've certainly never invited them into my studio before. Um funnily, I've had some people actually they thought that the studio was a prop. Oh, that is so funny. And to actually go, well, no, um, it's real space. Um you know, they're almost questioning whether my art was a paint by numbers, I think, or which is. Oh my gosh. But but that's where it's been um it has, although it's been exciting, it's also it's really been quite confronting, I think, in some ways, and and really inviting people into my art creating process a bit more than than perhaps I would have previously been to do or can't.
SPEAKER_02So you've more or less been shoved out of your creative comfort zone, whether you like it or not. And people, you what what reactions do you get apart from the prop situation? Because I find it interesting that what you're talking about is retirement. And potentially you have a lot of people sitting in front of you talking about what passions they have and what they're looking forward to doing. And here you are going, Well, I actually am living my passion. This is what I do, this is my art career.
SPEAKER_00Like that is where that is where it actually exactly to that point, that is where it came together. It was having this um real awareness of I am doing in my life what a lot of people dream of doing later on and perhaps may or may never get to. Um and but also it allowed us to have fun. As I said, I do a lot of work uh in my day job on camera, and there's a creative element to it. We've got a great social media team that you know we carry on quite a bit with. And so it allows you to actually be thinking about well, let's paint your picture, or let's let's paint out, or you start your retirement with a blank canvas. There is more puns than we we have time to use.
SPEAKER_01I I get that, I get that.
SPEAKER_00But there is, and there's been there's been times I've I've felt like one of those TV, um, you know, like a dare I say a Rolf Harris or someone that's painting while you're talking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But but there has been this real to your point, it's it's how do you start to talk to people about the things they love, the things they're passionate about, the things they maybe dream of doing, but me actually realizing the dream now. And and dare I say, me saying up front that there's a real struggle now between the two. Yeah. To some extent, that may be the struggle, but I've got this real realisation now of going, this is my passion today. It's not my retirement dream. It's not the dream I want to fulfill later on in life. This is something I really want to fulfill. Yes. Um, and that is the struggle, I would say to you.
SPEAKER_02And I think um, like if I'm honest with you, I think that, you know, I think that it's we're always juggling different aspects of our life. And I think, you know, the hardest thing for a lot of people that I talk to or mentor is learning how to create those boundaries around your sacred creative time when inevitably life is gonna constantly step into that. And I'm c I'm curious to know that, you know, you've obviously been painting for so long alongside this corporate career and then going and traveling and producing these bodies of work. Was there ever a time that you did have to like push pause on your art? And if so, like how did you end up getting back into it? How did you how did you pull yourself back in?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh there used I used to talk about that I'd come do those big bodies of work, have an exhibition, the exhibition would go well, and then I'd almost creatively grind to a halt and go full corporate. Yeah. And the I used to refer to it as the screaming, I'm not the scream, but the creative voices in my head would just get louder and louder, and the ideas would get so strong that I just couldn't avoid it anymore. But the reason it's an important reflection, I could go six, twelve, eighteen months without even creating anything. And and now I can't, I can't even imagine that. You know, I can barely go go a couple of days now without getting up into the studio and and doing something. So I think creatively it used to be a real feast or famine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but now, especially since I've finished the studio, that balance, like it did for all of us, shifted dramatically in COVID, and the studio became a very, very important space to me. Yes. And I just haven't let that go. I haven't relinquished that. So although I've had to learn to rebalance or it ebbs and flows, I don't I actually think I don't have that creative voice getting louder and louder anymore to a point that I can't ignore it. I think I just have it as a constant voice now.
SPEAKER_02And so what you're saying is you've developed consistency for yourself in your own routine, how that, however, that has come about with within your corporate life. You you've now found a routine for yourself that actually works for you to an extent, even though you're feeling uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_00You make it sound like I've worked it out. Um, I think I think I've got a much better awareness of what that balance needs to be. And I'm not we would have talked about this. I'm certainly I I haven't fully realized that, but I think I've got the awareness now. So um, and I I think the challenge is how do I make sure that I don't let go of that? How do I make sure that yeah, there'll be times where the day job or the corporate job will need to be busy? Uh like at the moment, you know, we've got investment markets going crazy, and that's where my focus has to be. But how how do I make sure that at the same time that I'm not I'm not giving up or it's not coming at the expense of what my creative needs are. And then even like you said, I've got to balance in there as well. My family, which is incredibly important to me. Um, and also then balance. Uh, it's not, as you well know, it's not just doing the paintings and everything else, but I'm starting to want to really think about where my art goes next. And so there's a lot of administration, a lot of time to think, and everything else that goes with that. So um yeah, so I know all the pieces, I wouldn't say that I've worked out how to how to get them working together, but I I have that awareness anyway, I think.
SPEAKER_02But I think it's a constant dance as well. Like I think inevitably, once you feel like you know, something really is working quite well, or you've got some sort of system for yourself, inevitably something in life will change and you've got to pivot again. That's the natural order of things. But I think just having the the awareness, I think you're almost like that's 90% of it. Because otherwise, what happens if if we're just you know, if we're going along and we're white knuckling our way through, you know, the corporate, you know, rat race, so to speak, and you're literally hanging on for dear life to your art as an oxygen tank, then the creative process becomes less about um less about the passion that is fueled by the love of what we do, and more about obsessive passion, which is just the need to like rab back on to it with full force in order to make something happen, you know? They're very different energies, very different energies.
SPEAKER_00And I think it actually in reflecting before this conversation and and it's quite interesting. Interesting where it's going because these are things that I've thought about that the way I used to paint when it was that real feast or famine, my painting was quick, it was fast, it was quite not aggressive, but it was almost frantic. It was almost right, I've got a very short window to produce all of these artworks. Yeah. Um, it was also painted in a very different way. I would paint predominantly late at night uh and into the early hours of the morning. Um, you know, it it was a completely different process, a completely different energy. Now that it's a more considered or a more permanent part of my life, um, that it's not, although it's still competing, it definitely has its place. That I'll go into the studio now. My paintings have become much more of a meditation, they've become a beautiful. Um, I actually find the process of painting now so incredibly fulfilling and so oh the experience has just changed completely, and I find it so rewarding, as opposed to I think if I go back even 10 years ago, that that it was just a completely different way of painting, a completely different energy. I wouldn't say I had the same attachment to the artwork, although I may have had attachment to the subjects, the the attachment to the painting itself wasn't the same. And yeah, and that's what I think has changed. Um, that that as I said, although it is still competing, it's really found its place. And it's now quite a I think it works in symbiosis with my my day job that that I know the the uh studio space allows me to breathe, it allows me to think, it allows me to really find an enjoyment, and the fast-paced part of my life is actually that corporate life. You know, they've almost in some ways flicked. Yeah. Um, and I know uh I know you probably want to jump in, but there's been an experiment I've done, then I'll I'll take a breath. But there's been an experiment I've done over the course of about the last month and a half. I take my blood pressure every day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00The days I'm in the studio, this is quite seriously, even if I go into the studio for a couple of hours at the end of a workday, my blood pressure drops significantly. Oh my god, there you go. If anything, if anything over the and you're thinking about a time where work is incredibly high pressured, if anything has told me that the studio has shifted my energy, shifted the way I work, shifted what it's doing for me or my art creative process, that's that's actually the proof of it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you're literally painting your way into more years of life. You're literally gaining years on your lifespan.
SPEAKER_00I I need to I need to take that back to my day job, don't I? When I talk about retirement, I can be saying, right, here's the health benefits of doing your hobbies.
SPEAKER_02I know. This is why I love sitting in front of corporate people. You should do that. You should you should do that. Set up a corporate um, you know, creative coaching ordeal. And and give them the experience.
SPEAKER_00You're not you're not straying too far from where my current thought post is.
SPEAKER_02See, I'm picking up on all these things. Isn't that interesting though? Because I think as well, like one of the things that has always occurred to me is that I think when we begin to have intention over our choices, like just purely the intention for you to build that studio space, that was like you literally declaring to the universe, hey, this is what's important to me. Now we need to make things kind of fit into some sort of creative ecosystem where everything can work together because this is a priority. And I think inevitably when we choose, when we make those choices, when we step up to the plate and, you know, we choose to step into that personal power within us, we I think that the world moves for us. I think things rearrange for us. And, you know, I'm really genuinely curious to see kind of your next evolution. Like I'm curious to keep watching and see how things unfold for you because I just think what you've done has been so clever in connecting them. But now having you witness the contrast and actually feeling in your body, oh, well, I have actually a pretty intense pull towards, you know, being in my studio a lot more at the moment. Like I'm curious to see what you do with that now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's actually been a couple of very strong connections with it, which I've I've sort of reflected on. But I had a major health uh challenge and and change at the time the studio was being built. So it it became, dare I say, it actually became very, very much part of my mental health and well-being. But I think the other, and that maybe leads to the reason why even when I'm up there painting, it tends to be more of a meditation. It's it's a very relaxed space, it's a very chill space. Even my family know that up there, oh, everything from the music to to just the energy of the place is very different to our house, and that's quite intentional. Yeah. Um, but it's also been, as I said, the way the process has has changed. I think um my actual works I'm creating now, I will spend a hundred plus hours on. Um and historically, I'd do something in 10 or 15 hours. So that even that even by itself, and that's been a dramatic shift in a very short period. That shift has happened in five or six years. That probably says something to what the studio has given me and what the space has given me. To your to your point though, what's going to be next? Um, God, I'd love to know what I'm doing as well. Um, but but there is so at the moment I'm doing a very big body of work, um, which is called Landscapes of Influence. And that's going back and actually looking at paintings I've done before from places that were very special to me, but also places that are important to me. I lost my father late last year. So that's right, thank you. But it's also there's a lot of memories that are coming through. A painting that I actually just finished last weekend uh of uh Kigeri, Fraser Island.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, was that the winning prize? Was that the win prize entry or is that a separate one?
SPEAKER_00No, no, that's a separate one. Uh the win prize entry was uh Lord Howe Island. Ah, that's right. It was too.
SPEAKER_02That was beautiful.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. That's where I had my my honeymoon actually. But the painting I've just finished of Kigari was of a rainforest walk in this the centre of the island. That it was the very last photo I showed my dad, the very last discussion I had with dad was me saying, Dad, I think I'm going to to paint this. And it was a place that that I had been as a child with him. Uh it was an important place to both of us. I didn't know at the time that would be the last conversation I had with dad, obviously. But dad was also he was it's through him I've got my love of art. Although he wasn't an art, although he wasn't an artist himself, he he had a very good eye. He he was very incredible uh technically in knowing what would work, what wouldn't work, how perspective should work. And it was a challenging painting, but it was one that I've helped out all the way through. Now I know I know I've digressed a bit, but what I mean is that the new studio in the space and what it affords me and the changing approach I've had has allowed me to really dive into that and and spend a hundred hours or however long it is to really it it's become quite an emotional experience, and I mean that in a positive way. So although this subject is important, I actually think the way I paint, it actually has such a strong emotional connection that, and that's where I said my previous works, I think they were done so frantically and so quickly, there almost wasn't that connection. Um and that's that's really what I've gained from the studio so far. It's allowed me to to really change my approach, change my practice, um, and spend a lot more time connecting with with the works and the subject and and really enjoying it in a completely different way. And that probably leads me to the point of well, what is next? I now have an opportunity that I perhaps didn't have um parts of the studio existing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And I think what I'm hearing you say as well is you've gone from production to honoring your process. And, you know, I think inevitably what happens when we pivot from this idea of just producing out of a need for like oxygen versus creating with pure presence and creating from a place that is honoring what we do. And it's like that painting that you did, that's honoring your dad. When we when we get get back to what creativity actually is as a whole, I think we can almost put it down to the fact that creativity is a place of safety. And one of the things that I'm constantly educating, like especially with, you know, high school students, for example. But I think, look, this can go across all ages. But it is the one thing that we can do for ourselves that is our own sacred space. And I think we forget to really honor that part of creativity, is that it it asks nothing from us. It just forces us to see ourselves. And I think at times this is where when we are going through this phase where we're we have this yearning to want to paint more or invest more of our time into our work. I think that really truly tapping into that emotional state and honoring that, it's it's the best thing that we can do for our work is go back to the why. And sometimes when we're in the studio all the time, like I catch myself up constantly in filtering myself into that production mode. And I can feel myself not being present. And I have I have tools that I use to get back into this state of presence so that I'm not just painting for the sake of painting. And yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_00No, I I was going to say, and I think that's where your earlier point around or our earlier discussion on me now inviting my other work, so with Australian Retirement Trust, into that sacred space, into that process, that's where I have very clearly seen, and I'm not going to articulate this properly because I haven't really verbalized it before, but it's where I've seen, well, I can see how we're going to use it in purpose with that part of my life.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, in having a camera crew up there and filming me paint and say certain things and it all, you know, post-production and everything looks great. Um, but it's actually going, well, what am I going to do? Especially that my art process has changed. I'm not I'm I'm creating works that are so have such um intention behind them now and uh created in a way with such intention. How do I the next stage for me is to to think about going back to that point you make of well, what's it now producing, or what's the the next step out of that. And that's why I've really started leaning heavily in on my my network in in recent times around, well, let's actually see what we can do to um you know almost bring the worlds keep those two worlds together, but have it also working in the other direction as well. Have it yeah, uh I don't want to say that I give up that sacred space of the studio or my process or the intent purely for it to be absorbed by that corporate life I've got. How do I actually make sure that the balance is coming the other way as well?
SPEAKER_02So do you know what? I just I just had this thought pop into my head there because I was thinking about visualizing one of the videos that you did. You did this video of you um, like they pan across. So you step across your easel and you've got a coffee in one hand and then it changes to like a paper. Yeah. And it was such a clever video. And do you know what I thought? That little image dropped into my head. I'm like, what if you were literally creating your future version of yourself? It's like all of this filming, it's literally showing the future version of what you want. It's like your very own vision board that you're creating without realizing it.
SPEAKER_00I I so you were definitely manifesting on my behalf. Um yeah, it can I just say that that video, that change from me being in a suit with a coffee cup into my artist gear uh with a paintbrush. I reckon we did about 20 takes of that.
SPEAKER_02But anyway, um I Well, it worked, it was effective. I watched it at least 10 times.
SPEAKER_00But Cohen, this is what you're saying is exactly it's both the most beautiful, beautiful thing that that I have this realization and awareness of these two really important parts of my life. Um but it's also um I think it is the vision board. I think it is I think manifest it is manifesting the future a bit. And and that's where um that's where I think, as I said up front, the struggle now is different. The struggle used to be how do I just balance that feast or famine with my art? For me, it's now going, God, I'm loving doing this art thing. You know, it's it's now become such a present, constant part of my life. And if I can be really frank, probably the more dominant for the first time in my career, it is now becoming more dominant. It's constantly it's constantly my thinking, it's constantly my planning, it's when I'm doing my day job, I'm thinking about what I should be doing in the studio and not the other way around. And that that has been a beautiful realization. It's now it sets up a challenge, but it has been a beautiful realization, and that's why they're both, as I said, they they are symbiont, uh, one needs the other, but I think it's really acknowledging well, the dimensions of the two or how they're working or what I should be doing, that's shifting. And that's the challenge.
SPEAKER_02Oh, 100%. What advice would you have then for someone else who's potentially juggling, you know, a corporate busy life? What advice would you have if they're feeling like their identity is being like pulled in two separate directions and they don't really know what to do with that? What would you say to them?
SPEAKER_00I yeah, it's interesting because I especially with dad dying, um, and you know, those moments in your life, especially when he was so um so crucial to my he was the biggest influence in in terms of my creative life. Um so it's at those moments that I think you can really lament what you should have done, what you could have done, missed opportunities, all the rest of it. Um and I could have I could have spiraled down that rabbit hole. But it it became instead a real what am I going to do from here? What am I going to do? Not just to honor dad, but to honor dad's belief in me, was probably the very first thing that that set that course of thinking off. Um and probably my challenge to people who are trying to balance the two is well, if you don't have those those really big moments in your life, how do you almost sit back and think about that? Um, like you don't need someone in in your life to to pass away or a major change to drive that. How can you actually start to manifest that yourself or start to, to your point, the vision board? Um I've I wish, I truly wish that uh, and this isn't a regret, it's maybe a hope for others, that that 10 years ago, before I had the studio, before it was even a concept in my head of actually going, well, how am I going to balance these two two parts of my life out? I don't think I really until recently saw it as something that I needed to do. I think until recently, I've just gone, my creative life has its place and I'll get to it when I can get to it. Um and my work, uh my corporate life has this place. It it's only now where I've actually gone, well, no, this has to, this balance, although it's important, I need to to, you know, really, really think about what I'm going to do with it. My challenge to others would be don't wait for those big moments in your life to come along because you don't know when they will, how they will, or what they'll themselves actually manifest. It's how can you now make the decision of going, you know what? I want my creative self to be a bigger part in my in my life or in my my day to day. Start really thinking about how you can make that happen. And and the reason why I perhaps lament it just a little, I would have loved to have seen dad uh seen me fulfill that. I think. Yeah. And I know in some way, I know spiritually that he will, and he's still very much a part of what I'm doing. Jesus, the instigator of it. But I know it would have made him really proud for me to go, you know what, Dad? I've actually looked at my where I put my value on my creative self, and I've decided I'm actually going to give it more value than I have been. That's I think Corin.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I re I really resonate with that because my um my grandfather, my poppy Paul, he was um he he passed away very early and he was one of the most active, just incredible people. He rode across the Simpson Desert on his um pushbike. So he s cycled across the Simpson Desert with one of his friends. And he was just one of those like outrageous out there kind of people. And he but he was really good at getting straight to the point. And I still remember this one day. I was probably like, I don't know, I was like in year 10, like in my rebel stage. And like he, like it was the stage where all the year advisors and everyone was kind of trying to tell you what path to go down. And I was just so anti, it's like, tell me what to do. I dare you. I will do the polar opposite. Um and so every every person was kind of saying, Oh, yeah, and you know, you've got to follow your sporting passion and you know, gymnast and all of that, do all of that. And I remember this really frank conversation I had with my pot one day, and I can still see it clear as day. He was sitting on the lounge. And I said, I don't know, I don't know what to pick because I just think school's useless. And he looked at me and he kind of gave me his like playful smirk. And he goes, Tell me more about that. And I said, Well, I know exactly what I want to do. I said, the rest is pointless to me. I said, I'm gonna go and do all my gymnastics coaching, I'm already doing that. And I said, I want to be an artist. And he goes, Well, fuck the rest.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_02And he was just flat out, well, fuck the rest. He goes, You'll find a way of just doing what you want. And do you know what? Funnily enough, I did. I found a way of turning my gymnastics coaching into my HSC. And because I already had all the accreditation and stuff, I I basically knocked all of these units off my HSC. So whilst everyone was struggling with their 16 units or whatever they were doing, I had 26 free periods and spent most of my time in the art room. And then, you know, I did the bare minimum to get what I needed to get to get into national art school. But it was like he just gave me mission like permission to focus on what I was passionate about. And I just think how simple is that though?
SPEAKER_00I kinda firstly I love the idea of you talking about when you were a rebel, when I still think even the way I see you hit some of your panels or or suddenly decide to change your hair colour. Um totally irrebel. Um but I think it's that goes to the point I was saying before that um I love that we we look to and it is important that we look to those that are influential in our lives almost for permission, I guess, or yeah, or to help us there. It's how do we how do we ourselves give ourselves that permission? Oh how do we yes how do we allow ourselves to as I said earlier to go, you know what? I value my creative self and I value it enough that I'm going to give my permission myself permission to really go there. And that's I love that I've worked that out now. I love that's to your to something you said earlier. I'm really excited about where I might go next, but I don't I've got no fucking idea. But um, but it's it's finally that realization of giving myself that permission or giving myself that creative value. And and that's where I think your pop or my dad would probably be so so it that's what would bring them joy, I think. And that's what I think as creatives, um, and I've heard this come up as a theme in your podcast, actually, that it I think as creatives we almost feel we have to ask for permission, or you feel I don't know that guilt's the right word, but but it almost as if um there's something that comes with like we feel that we've got to pay something back or that's gonna be earned. Or yeah, yeah. And and that's where I even look at my corporate life balance. It has afforded me great things, okay. I'm not going to to suggest otherwise, including the ability to build the studio. But it it isn't what I don't need permission from it. I don't need uh you know, it it I shouldn't have to feel guilt about that part of my life. I should be able to go, no, this exists this is whatever I value and this is what I'm going to push for. Um that's that's where I say it's it's I've got no freaking idea where that's going to go, and that is both terrifying as well as exciting. I've mentioned this to someone actually in recent days. It's like when you're just about to go into that massive roller coaster that you know is going to scare the living crap out of you. Yeah. But God, you know it's gonna be good. And you know it's gonna be fun, and you know you're gonna get to the end and it's gonna be exhilarating. That's where I feel at the moment. I'm just, you know, they've just closed the gate and made sure that I'm not gonna fall out. Um yeah, the rest is up to me from this point, I think.
SPEAKER_02That was just a perfect analogy. And like I keep saying, like the quote that I have on my wall that I look at every day is just universe, show me how good this can get. Because I think at a certain point we have to let go of the how. We've got to let go of the trying to plan our way into creative success. Because in reality, planning your way into creative success just it actually makes your box smaller than bigger. When we just leave it open, leave the how to the powers that be, and we just step forwards and we say, I'm here, I'm present, I'm gonna like whatever you give me, I'm gonna take it by the balls and I'm gonna run with it. I think that attitude, that attitude gives the universe permission to just get the ball rolling.
SPEAKER_00So and I think it's also if I just reflect on the last few months, I've had uh so I didn't get into the wing prize, you know. I can't wait. It was a beautiful work, though.
SPEAKER_02I know that walk of shame is is terrible every year, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Oh, isn't it, isn't it? Um, but there's also there's also something wonderful about it. But it's um but that didn't go the way I wanted. There was um a big submission I'd done for a grant that didn't go the way I wanted, and there was another art prize that didn't go the way I wanted. And I can remember at those times, including with the win last week, I could have sat in a dark space and really let myself go down rabbit holes with that. And that would have been, dare I say, the old corporate focused me, wanting a quick win or wanting something that, yep, the universe is telling me I've got to shift in that direction. Me getting this prize or me getting that submission or whatever it may be, that's the universe telling me. Yeah. The realization I've had as part of all of this is well, bullshit Josh, just go and do it.
SPEAKER_02Exactly. And answer that. Just go and do it.
SPEAKER_00And that's that's where I think that's the attitude that anyone who is struggling with that balance, even if it's a balance between home and creative or work and creative or whatever it may be, it's going, why don't I just do it? Why it's stop waiting for the universe to give me a clear signal or to drop something in my lap. Because what I've even found, Karen, and this is again something I mentioned earlier. I've just found I've had people come into my life over the last month or so through my my art network that that has just led me in directions where I'm going, shit, I'm just going with this. I am just it it has been amazing. There have been three very different people that have come back into my creative life where I've just gone, right, this is with purpose. This this is, but it's up to me. The difference is it's up to me to make all of them connect and make it work and make things happen. Yeah. That's where it's really great. That's where it's really exciting. And that's why I sort of go, well, I don't know what's next, but maybe come back in six months and we will do this.
SPEAKER_02And I'm going to, I'm going to like have like a stream of your videos that you've made, your like future version of yourself that you've made now. And in 10 years' time, we're going to go back and look at those videos, and you will have won the win prize, and you'll have you'll have galleries everywhere, and we're gonna we're gonna remember this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Done. Done.
SPEAKER_02Done. Okay, sold. We're sorted.
SPEAKER_00Can I say though, um, just one thing I wanted to mention, and um, as you know, I do podcasts in my my real job, right? Not my real job, isn't that awful? In my corporate job.
SPEAKER_01In your corporate job.
SPEAKER_00There was uh a recent episode you you did with um Marissa Bell um Gonzalez, right? And she was talking about the loneliness of the studio and and how it'd be great to invite each other into studios and things.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00I would also go one step further and go that why I love this podcast that you do and the discussions you have, I think often we get stuck in our heads on on even it just feels lonely when we're trying to work out our direction. It feels I think sometimes we feel, and maybe it's how I said uh I think artists carry some guilt around being creative.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I I think we also not I think we sometimes keep that process very close to us and very um isolated, and we do get lonely with it. And so Corinne, the reason why I raise all of that is that the the discussions you have through this podcast, I think, are just a great way for us to share our our challenges, our um our hurdles and all of that. But I think it's also to the point you've just made a really great way for us to share each other's aspirations and almost hold each other to account.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I love that. I love that perspective. Thank you for that. Because, you know, the entire thinking through all of this has always just been to have a really authentic discussion without the bullshit and without the um without the scriptedness and without, you know, polishing everything up, because at the end of the day, nothing is polished. We're all just as clueless as each other. And like we discussed in Marissa Bell's podcast, we are gonna get like a little group together. This is gonna happen. And look, look, this is accountability now. Everyone's gonna be freaking expecting it. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to get that sorted because I know Marissa Bell is gonna listen to this now and she will text me and she'll say, Told you so. Sorry.
SPEAKER_00It struck, it struck a beautiful nerve when I was. Oh, it's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_02We will do it. We will do it. Okay. Oh well, consider yourself entered into the group.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02But see, this is the only thing holding me back. I don't want to then go and play be the leader of all of this. No, I just want everyone to come along. Like, this is why I'm having these BYO art sessions in my um studio at the moment. Because I'm like, can you all just can you all just come? Can we can we just have a party and talk and have a cry together sometimes?
SPEAKER_00I and I but I think I think that's um what an artistic support group. I think um it is where even we all come from different creative spaces, and I've watched your creative space um become what it is that and and you've watched my studio become what it is, and you talk to Marissa Bell about what's her change in in her creative space. And I think it's how do we how do we open that up to each other and share that? Yeah, anyway, I think it's in great opportunity and I don't think it's something that that you need to lead. Um although you can get us going, I don't think we can just let it all share.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, we can let it all organically flow and then someone can invite another friend, and then then we have already a little group of people that might want to go on residency together. Oh, I can just see the potential now. This is gonna be great.
SPEAKER_00I I still have these romantic views of the angry penguins and you know, all of them down in Melbourne with Arthur Boyd and all the rest of them. Um, you know, we need we need a more we need a more modern version, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yes. I think it's time for it. And I think if that's the one thing that I've learned through doing like so many interviews now, like there's so many good ones about to come up, like the one thing is well, we are all freaking yearning for connection. And yet, why do we make art to connect? Like it is hilarious, right? So, anyway, that is going to happen, but I won't keep you for too much longer. And I just really value the honesty that you've brought forward today. And I really genuinely think that there are so many people that are gonna get a lot out of this. And I think that the overarching um thing that I got out of this conversation is you've just got to choose you. Just choose you, just choose to step into your creative power.
SPEAKER_00I love that. I can't add more to that. The only concern I've got out of this conversation is when we sit listening to it in 10 years. Um, and you will go, I told you so.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I will.
SPEAKER_00I love it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I will. I'm gonna say I told you so. And as everyone that knows me knows, I don't burn bridges with anyone. So I just kind of collect all of these beautiful people around me that I continue loving for years and years and years. And, you know, this is by far the best part about being a part of the creative industry and getting to know other people's practices and their weaknesses and the things that they think about and the things that light them up. It's like at the end of the day, when we listen back to all these conversations, and like this is the thing. I want these conversations to just keep rolling. And it's like my hope that my daughter one day will be able to learn so much from every single one of you that's been on the podcast because this is like wisdom keeping, you know.
SPEAKER_00And I think it is though it's that beautiful. I go back to us meeting in the cafe and the random we were almost strangers except for D.
SPEAKER_01We pretty much were.
SPEAKER_00Um, in what other world, in what other space would you find that two people almost randomly cross paths? And you know, I I think that is exactly what uh we have the ability to, as artists, as creatives, notwithstanding some of them are probably as extroverted as you and I, but but that's where I think we have this amazing energy that we can share and build and and really find strength in together. But also um yeah, I'd I I think even in having this conversation with you, Karen, it's part of the universe at the moment, telling me, Josh, this is the conversation you need today. Uh these are having someone hold you to account on some things. You came into my life at the right time, and having this conversation today is happening at the right time as well.
SPEAKER_02What a gift, what a gift it is. And at the end of the day, you know, people like us, we just find each other in a cafe, and I'm like, hi, Josh, give me a hug. I'm such a huggy person. It's ridiculous. Some people might feel so caught off by me.
SPEAKER_00Well, both our mothers stared at us going, what the hell?
SPEAKER_02Like, what is happening? Anyway, such such is my entire creative existence. Like, hugs all around, everyone come into my studios. Hey, sit down, have a conversation. Hey, can I call you next week? Literally, my entire life.
SPEAKER_01Um I love it.
SPEAKER_02But you have a good one, and what I'll do is, yeah, after we get off the phone, you can just send me your headshot and all the links and all of that. And um, yeah. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. I've really enjoyed this conversation.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. No worries. I've loved the fact that I haven't thought about my corporate job for the last hour or so. That's been wonderful.
SPEAKER_01I have succeeded.
SPEAKER_02You have a good one. I'll chat with you soon. Talk soon.