Daring Creatively: Unfiltered

Developing Consistency Within a Creative Practice with Zoe Sernack

• Korynn Morrison • Season 1 • Episode 11

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Daring Creatively: Unfiltered is an Australian art podcast where Sydney-based contemporary artist Korynn Morrison picks up the phone, drops a surprise topic into the conversation, and hits record.

In this episode Korynn calls Sydney-based contemporary artist Zoe Sernack. Through layering, obscuring, revealing and reworking, each piece evolves as a visual conversation between structure and spontaneity. The surprise topic: developing consistency within a creative practice.

Zoe is one of those artists that Korynn has watched from a distance for years, consistently showing up, consistently getting into prizes, consistently getting her work in front of people. So this conversation was always going to go somewhere good.

In this honest unplanned conversation two artists talk about what consistency actually looks like in a real creative life, why showing up for even 10 minutes counts, how motherhood made Zoe more laser focused not less, the happy mistakes that have become central to her layered process, teaching workshops interstate every month and what that gives back to her own practice, and the Nepean Hospital commission — a major redevelopment project that Zoe is talking about publicly for the very first time in this episode.

She also has an exhibition opening at Brenda Colahan Fine Arts in Redfern on August 13th.

If you love art podcasts, conversations about the real creative life, or you are an artist trying to figure out how to show up more consistently for your practice, this one is for you.

New episodes drop whenever the call happens.

Zoe Sernack Relevant Links:

Ana on Instagram HERE.

Upcoming Exhibition August 13th at Brenda Colahan Fine Arts.

Nepean Hospital Redevelopment Commission HERE.

Creative Stuff Sydney (Margi & Pedro)- Canvas Stretching, Panels and Framing HERE.

SH Ervin Gallery 2026 Salon Des Refuses HERE.

Join My Inner Circle: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/mailing-list

Visit My Website: https://www.korynnmorrison.com/

Find me on Instagram HERE


SPEAKER_04

My guest today is the unbelievably talented Zoe Cernak. Zoe's practice explores the Australian landscape as a place of memory, emotion and connection. Through layering, obscuring, revealing and reworking, each piece evolves as a visual conversation between structure and spontaneity. Zoe graduated from the National Art School and has held nine solo exhibitions across Australia. She's been a finalist in multiple art prizes, including the 2026 Salon de Refuse, and teaches workshops interstate every month. Most excitingly, she has just completed a major commission for the redevelopment of Nippan Hospital, which she is sharing publicly for the very first time right here on this podcast episode. Upcoming for her is an incredible exhibition at Brenda Collaghan Fine Arts in Redfern, which opens on August 13th. And the surprise topic that I gave her today was developing consistency within a creative practice. Now, this is a really, really beautiful, honest conversation. I think you guys are gonna get a lot out of this one. So grab yourselves a cupper, let's dive in. No plan, no prep, no agenda, just two creatives having a chat. I'm Karin Morrison, Australian artist, cup overflowing personality, and someone who genuinely gets way too excited talking about the creative life. My guests are artists at every stage of the journey. And the conversations that happen when nobody's performing, those are the ones that we really need to hear. So grab a coffee, get into your studio, and come hang with us. This is Daring Creatively Unfiltered. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00

Hello, lovely. How are you? Oh, I'm not working. Hold on two seconds. I can hear you. I know. Look, I hear I'm trying to be your audio special, but not working too well. There you go. I'll just have to hold the phone.

SPEAKER_04

Oh no, that's fine. You can keep me on track. That way your arm gets a little bit sore. So if I speak over time and you need to go, it will be up propped.

SPEAKER_02

I was all organized and I wasn't.

SPEAKER_04

And then I thought to myself, oh my god, it's been so long since I've actually seen you. I think the last time I ran into you was like last year at oh it would have been affordable art fair or something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think it was.

SPEAKER_04

I think it was. God, how much has happened since then?

SPEAKER_01

A lot, actually. A lot. I feel like I've had some chunky, yeah. I feel like I've had some really a chunky two, three year period, actually, for whatever lots of different reasons, but um, which I'm happy to talk about. But yeah, but it's um, yeah, it's been I think life's just chunky in general, basically.

SPEAKER_04

It is, but like the thing is, like I've been um like before each one of these calls, I like I take a little bit of time to like just really like think about the artist that I'm talking about, because when I come up with these surprise topics, they're very intuitive. They're not like me going through your artist statement and piecing something out, they're what I kind of see in the artist myself. That's cool. When I was thinking about you, like I think I was actually trying to think back to the first time I I actually remember.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I actually remember because I was thinking, well, I was actually thinking you was like, I must have found you. I'm guessing on Instagram, and then I contacted you, and that I think that was I hadn't gone into doing big boards yet, and I contacted you and said, Hey, could you help me?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, can you help me find somebody that could make some big boards for me?

SPEAKER_01

And you were straight away like, yep, here's a number, here's da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, I gave you Pedro's number. Yeah, well, yeah, and Maggie, and Maggie's like a, you know, I don't know, Maggie from Creative Stuff is just like a little fairy godmother to me.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, isn't she? Oh, she's amazing. They've made all of my panels and framed all my work and they come and pick everything up, they drop everything off. There you go. See, they didn't even know they were gonna get a shout out today, and I know they listened to the podcast, so there you go. Creative stuff.

SPEAKER_02

Very deserving.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, don't worry, I'll put their link in the show notes now.

SPEAKER_02

Um, but I just thought, even just straight away, the fact that you shared that information because it's a funny world that we're in, as in every probably world that people can be particularly cagey or not, you know, want to share information, this and that.

SPEAKER_01

And straight away you did not hesitate at all. I was like, I like this girl, like she's cool. Like the fact that you were you got asked a question and you're like, Yeah, here, here's the information, go for it. Yeah, but I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04

I just think, oh look, that's what you see is what you get with me. And it's like there is no, like, this is the one thing is that like there's not I just don't think that there's any reason to be protective or um and I think that if you are that kind of person, you attract more of it to yourself. You end up building all this resistance around your practice and all this fear of people stealing things. And yeah, I just don't think it serves anyone. And it's like at the end of the day, if we can't celebrate each other and help each other win, then you know, like you just end up becoming a you know a grouch. Yes, 100%, 100%. There's no need for that. So I was sitting and I was thinking about Zoe, and I was thinking, what's one word that comes to mind when I think about Zoe? And do you know what? The one thing that I've observed in you right from the word go is your consistency, developing consistency within a creative practice because you have been damn consistent in getting into art prizes. In fact, weren't you on that like top artist list at some stage for getting into finalists on that? What was that?

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. I mean, that's good if I was, but that's not something I know about.

SPEAKER_04

It was, I think it was, I don't know whether it was last year or the year before, but I remember it was something to do with the art prizes calendar, and they put up like this diagram of artists that have been in finalists for lots of different prizes, and your name was on it. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01

I did not know that.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, really? Oh no. I'll have to go back and see if I can find it for you. Um but you've been consistent in getting into prizes, you've been consistent in getting your work out there in front of people, and then I think I started seeing your work in the flesh when you were when Sarah Bertles was showing a lot of your work. Yeah. And um, she's an amazing lady too. She's awesome. She's awesome. Yeah, she's awesome. And yeah, so that's what I wanted to throw at you today. Developing consistency within a creative practice. Because at the end of the day, I mean, I mentor a lot of creative people, and there's a lot of people that want to talk about their ideas. They have all of these ideas, and at the end of the day, if we're not in the studio getting our hands dirty, producing a shit ton of work and throwing a lot of pain at the wall and making a lot of mistakes, we actually don't move the ball forward. And all I see in you is you're constantly moving the ball forward. So I the first question I wanted to ask you is what does a consistent creative practice actually look like for you here and now versus what it did previous? Because I know that you've done a lot of things previous to being full-time in the studio.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Um, well, I think I mean, I think you you've already said it and you've said it in interviews that you've done about your work. It is just showing up. And I think it's it's funny. I've always had this funny sort of relationship with mistakes, and now I've just decided to call them happy mistakes because um, again, like you, we're working with layers, and I think working in layers, you have to get rid of a lot of your fear of starting. And because you just put things down, and if you don't like it, you change it. And because I am working in layers, I can easily, you know, put a big shape over something that I'm like, that doesn't work. So um, and when it comes to yeah, it is it is consistent, it's it is just showing up, it's just making sure that you are spending you you forge that time out every day to make sure that you are creating. And that doesn't necessarily mean that I have to be in the studio. It could be me going off to the park and taking photographs of reflections, or it could be me having a conversation like this because I know that I'm gonna get a buzz out of this conversation, and that's gonna then propel me to do you know something else creatively afterwards. So it's just putting yourself in environments constantly that just keep you excited about what you're doing. And if if you aren't excited about what you're doing, it's also reminding yourself that tomorrow is another day. Yeah. And you can go in there, especially the the practice that I do, you can go in there and you can then make the changes as you seem fit at the time in an intuitive manner. So it's um it's about having fun. It's having fun with it and not losing, you know, the perspective on the reality is that we are in an evolving world and we're gonna evolve in it, and just making sure that you again show up and just do your best in that moment and see what happens tomorrow.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think one of the things that you just said that just landed for me then, which, you know, I think is something worth saying. It's like, you know, artists are at all various stages of their career, and there's so like 90% of us are not in the studio full time. I mean, I'm lucky enough to be in the studio full time, you're lucky enough to be in the studio full time, but 90% of people are juggling multiple things. And I know you're a mum too, so that it's a constant juggle. But the thing is, if you create some sort of consistency for yourself to be constantly tapping back in, it means that there's actually less resistance within the studio time. So, for example, if you're someone that can only carve out, say, three hours a week, that's fine. But those three hours need to be such a priority for you because what happens is if you say to yourself, okay, or if you affirm to the people around you, I think this is one thing that I've probably spoken about that people have heard me rant on about, is that developing creative boundaries for yourself, and you might want to riff off what your boundaries are after this, but if you say to the people around you in your life, okay, this week I've got a block of, I need five hours of studio time, you have to be damn well sure that you're gonna show up for those five hours because the moment that you actually go back on your own word, it means that all the people around you actually don't take you seriously either. So the one thing that I'm constantly saying is when people put together, you know, a consistent schedule for themselves or develop those creative boundaries, affirm it out loud, but then you've got to stick to it. And what happens is if you begin to stick to your consistency, there's less pressure that comes into the studio with you.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I also think that once you do do those, say, those three hours, very soon you're gonna want four hours. And then you're gonna want five hours because you've proved to yourself that you can find those hours, whether it's half an hour. I mean, literally, you know, I've got a son who was into soccer, so he was watching the World Cup this morning, and I just had that itch, and I literally put a big canvas on the ground for the 10 minutes and put a whole lot of gold paint on it this morning, and I was like, yeah, that satisfied me in that moment, and it was literally 10 minutes of doing that. So, yeah, and it just like okay, cool. I just I made I reacted to my emotions and I just did something that filled my cup up for that moment. Um, and you will want it more, and I think when it comes to people, you know, because I do do teaching as well, and people are like, Oh, I haven't done anything for so long, and they're quite timid, which is totally understandable. But with then with the people who may be doing an hour a week, they just they're you know, they're just the cobwares are off a little bit and they're just they can stretch out and go, okay, well, this is not so foreign to me emotionally and physically and mentally, and they can throw themselves into it just a with a little bit more kindness.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, absolutely. And I think the other thing is that when you stop kind of switching out, so to speak, if you put pressure around your life to go, okay, this is my creative time and this is my time where I'm, you know, working on this. If you if you start to actually create an ecosystem around your entire creative life, that is, everything feeds into your creativity. It's not so much about just being rigid, it's about exactly what you said just then. It's like you were feeling the nudge. You found a way of creating a sacred creative time for yourself in 10 minutes. You know, making breakfast can be a creative pursuit if you allow it to. And so it's like creativity cannot be separated from our lives at all, that in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01

No, and it's not though, too, because you know, if people are driving to work, they've already chosen the kind of music for to match their mood, or they've chosen what clothes to put on to match that. You know, it's it's we're all we're all making choices in a creative sense already. So it's just being aware of that and going, okay, well, how do I feel today? And matching that that creative space to maybe an activity as well. So I know there's days where I don't I don't feel like painting is just it's not it's not the day that I'm gonna do any painting. Um, so it's like, well, okay, what else can I do? Okay, well, maybe I'll get my iPad out and just draw over my paintings or you know, just find another way. And there's just obviously there's so many ways that um you can be creative.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. And what does your system kind of look like for yourself now? Because you were previously um you were doing jewellery, weren't you? And then things have pivoted, and now you're doing workshops. And so far as your rhythm.

SPEAKER_01

So I've always I've always painted. So I basically went straight from high school, straight to the national art school. Um like me. I didn't realise that. Yeah, yeah. But early days, so it was East Sydney TAFE at this at the stage, and then I went off to Kofar because they were the only ones at the state at that time where they're offering a degree. Yeah. Did a year there, and then it became the National Arts School, and I got my degree in 2000. Oh. So yeah, and funnily enough, I um I was there. I I did my most of my study when my mum was also there. She was at the national art school at the same time doing photography.

SPEAKER_03

Oh gosh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it was funny because I think a lot of the students were like, wow, I would come back to this environment and do it with my mum. But I was like, no, we we were quite happy just to, you know, do our thing. So um obviously there's so much self-discovery when you're at art school, but I was like, no, this is all this is I know that this is where I'm meant to be. I don't I'm not trying to find my, you know, who I am.

SPEAKER_01

I know, I know that I want to do art, and that's that was always a given from you know, from a very young age.

SPEAKER_04

So was that because of your mum? Because she was creative as well?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, well, both both my parents are are really into photography. So I've always grown up with dark rooms in our in our homes. So I think I was thinking about this the other day because someone asked me a really good question and it triggered things in me. And I thought, oh well, I suppose with parents, with photography and being exposed to that, shapes and you know, certain the way you look at the world has probably impacted the way I paint as well, which I've never thought about before until just recently. So, um, because obviously it was black and white photography as well. It wasn't colour, so it meant, and also, you know, my mum's into lots of patterns and textures and you know, sunsets and sunrises and water, you know, whereas um dad's quite different. So um, yeah, so it probably it probably has, you know, obviously there's that creative gene is there. Um, and it's yeah, but I just I think it was always painting for me too. So so yeah, to answer your question, I was so I was at art school, and while I was at art school, I was working at jewelry stores. And then I was like, hold on a second, I can do this myself. So I on the side of doing exhibitions um and painting, I started up um some jewelry businesses, and that was the the thing that I would put into stores or be involved in fashion weeks or whatever it was, while and that would help me have those exhibitions and keep painting. So it's always been a balance between the two. And then having kids um obviously took space. So I was like, okay, this is the time where I just need to concentrate on one thing, and painting's always been is always been my thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, if it's one thing that kids teach you, it's you know, a forced um as much as it's it's kind of in one way it's chaos, and in the other way it's a forced presence. And I think a lot of people that like especially for me, I know I've spoken about it before. The the one thing that um that you know having a baby taught me was it actually taught me that I had no idea how to stop. I didn't realize how much on this constant pace of striving forwards, having goals, continually moving. I was like a shark. And I still am kind of in the city. You're pretty prolific. Yeah. But it's like I literally had no idea what it felt like to sit still. And um, you know how kids just require undivided presence. You can't be half there. And it was such a jarring thing for me in the early days. It took me so long to learn how to just be still. And, you know, man, did that change my art? Did kids change your art a lot as well?

SPEAKER_01

It changed in the fact that it wasn't as accessible, and it meant that now I feel like I'm a bit on catch-up as well. Like I feel like, okay, well, now it's time that when I'm here because my time is so precious that the great thing is is it I don't I probably don't think as much as I would have if, you know, if I that time wasn't as precious and so sandwiched between pickups and drop-offs or whatever it is. So now it's like, no, I'm just gonna get going. And it's it's rewarding because it's sort of a reaction to not being able to indulge in, oh well, I've got time here and there and flop and flop around. So I think it's definitely helped me just bit a bit more laser focused. I think. Yeah, absolutely. Um I mean I've always wanted I've always I always like the doing and I always like problem solving and all that sort of stuff. So that's always been there, but now it's just enhanced. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so where where did you kind of because it's only recently that you pivoted to being in the studio full time and you changed studios as well, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01

So no, well, what's happened is I've always I've had always had a studio at home. So um that's something, and again, it's at the front of the house, it's where the kids' bags get dropped and the shoes get left, and it's like, oh mum's got a cool room in here, so I could play with her stuff. So, you know, it's always the TV, if I'm painting at home, the TV is not important at all, which is crazy because they'll come and go, What are you doing in here? And so I mean it's quite adorable because my kids have always, you know, if they'll sit underneath my painting table and you know, just keep me company or give me advice on what I need to do. So I've still got that, but I yeah, two months ago, um, I've got a studio in Marrickville, and that's obviously in prep for for this exhibition because I've only got a certain amount of board space. And the way that I work is I work on look, I start out with a lot of cat a lot of boards, and then once they start talking to me, then I might be working on, you know, five or six at the same time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's not that, and obviously I don't have that that luxury at home to be working on, you know, large works all at the same time. So yeah, so I'm in Merrickville now and hopefully this exhibition goes well and I can keep the studio and just keep coming in here every day.

SPEAKER_04

It will. It will go so well. And I think like, so are you working? So this is um, correct me if I'm wrong, this is for the Brenda Collaghan Find Arts. Yeah, that's in August, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, August the 13th, and um yeah, she's based in Redfern. So we had that we had a funny it was a fun I love one thing I love about just life in general is that how things just link up. You just sort of like, ooh, so Brenda, I saw well, I saw her stand at Sydney Contemporary, and then I started talking to this gorgeous tall woman who I could I picked up very quickly. She had a New Zealand accent, and my husband's from New Zealand. And then we started talking, and then she introduced me to Brenda. And randomly, um, the artist Gabby decided to take a photograph of us. Like then she needed to capture that moment. So when I look back, it's like she already knew what was about to happen. Oh, that's so funny. I know. And then so I thought, oh well, go back on the way home to r and and drop into the gallery. And Brenda's brother was standing in looking after the the gallery space. He happened to be seeing somebody from where my mother grew up in the country. And and then I was looking at the I know, and then I was looking at the gallery and I was like, hold on a second. This is my sister's, she was my sister's got a fashion label. This is my sister's old headporters.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, as if that is all not a sign.

SPEAKER_01

That's hilarious. I know. So I was like, hold on a second, within ho just in within a day, there was such strong, like a pathway being being given to me. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, don't ignore this. Don't ignore this. And I had a similar one for Sarah too when I started off with her. She actually rented out um my studio space to show gal to show some collectors' works in Sydney. And then and I didn't, I don't know, I think we spoke to each other and somehow it came back around and she said, Oh, I really like your work. I'd like to represent you. And the next thing I know, I'm like, hold on a second, you were the person back then that rented the space, you know. So it's nice when things like that happen. Yeah, I like it when things like that happen because it just makes you like, oh, hold on a second. Like breadcrumbs.

SPEAKER_04

They're everywhere if you look for them.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. I totally. And I love it. I love it because it just it makes sense of sometimes the ca the chaotic world or the un, you know, the a world that we're in where you're like trying to make sense of your own creative headspace, but also the creative headspace, a creative world that you put yourself into as well. Yeah. So it's nice when there's a nice little connections that make you feel like, okay, no, no, no, no, it's all making sense.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's all linking up. And like with this um this show coming up, are you working bigger than you usually are? Because I haven't seen heaps and heaps of like you obviously don't work as big as me, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01

I would happily I would happily do so. It's more, I think, maybe some of the galleries haven't haven't been the galleries that I need had big works for. And that's the great thing about Brenda is I know I can go big. Like I can go bigger than what I'm going now. So I the smallest works, and I think there's gonna be about nine of them, something. The smallest works will be 50 by 50, but then the biggest works, there's a few of these are probably maybe 180.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, perfect. Oh, I'm so excited to see that.

SPEAKER_01

I know I am too, and it's a great space because she's got super high ceilings because it's an old warehouse style um building, great building. And um for me to look, I mean, I'm in the studio right now and to look around there. They're all talking to each other and having lots of conversations, but to put them into a into a space that they're gonna have lots of white space around them and they're gonna talk individually, I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and I think for your work, it's kind of similar with your work. Uh like my work needs a lot of space around it as well. Because I mean, we're both dealing with layers, we're both dealing with texture, we're both dealing in many ways with pattern. And I mean, I think your compositions are obviously a lot different to mine. They're a lot more structured in a way. And in actual fact, when you were talking about photography before and your parents, what landed in me, I was like, that's really interesting because photography, because you know I majored in photography at NAS.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I didn't. Okay.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, so I was the dark room person. So when people say dark room photography, my little my little sparkly brain just switches back on again. And it's interesting that you're dealing, I mean, you can explain a little bit more about your process. I might get you to do that. But when I look at your works, it's like there is a definite um consideration in contrast in your work, like the shapes and the way you almost stencil shapes in. I mean, that's kind of the way that I perceive light when I'm photographing something.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04

I don't know if you make that same connection, but it was just something that landed when you were saying that. But maybe talk a little bit about your process.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so I think you uh I mean we work in such similar ways, but you're you're excavating whereas I'm laying on top. So um, so and when you talk about stenciline, there is a lot of stenciling that goes on. So funnily enough, a few people have seen my work um and haven't seen it actually in the flesh, they actually think that I'm sticking things down onto board, which I don't. Fascinating. Okay. Yeah. So um, but yeah, when it comes to what I'm doing, I mean I will I will do sketches, but they're more they're more sort of a point of just getting some good, strong compositions down, and then I might use them to start a work off, but they're not something that I go back to and and and mimic and go, okay, yep, no, I've got to put that there and I've got that there. So it is very intuitive. Yeah. So the way I start is I'll put down some really strong shapes, almost stencil-like, and just see if that composition works. And if it does, great. If it doesn't, then I need to shift things again and and layer and layer and layer. Um, but it's just look, it's really looking at something and giving it its own breathing space. And it and when I get to a point where I've got so many shapes and outlines and block colour put down, I'll start going, okay, well, what's not looking good, what's not, you know, matching up well, and just keep layering on top of it until it I get it right, basically. But with doing that, I'm getting so much more depth. It's not sort of like all a whole lot of cutouts and then I'm done. It's sort of the textures go in, the dots go in, the scraping goes in, wood burning goes in. Um, so it becomes a whole work about not just the composition, the stencil-like shapes, but okay, there's movements, there's a rhythm that needs to go through the whole work, little stories. So it's sort of these reimagined landscapes.

SPEAKER_04

They're conversations. I think that's what I kind of pick up in your work is that the various elements that you've got across a panel, they all act as um talking points almost. And there's a different conversation that goes that kind of moves across each panel. And I found it fascinating that you just said then that you're sitting in your studio and they're all talking to each other. I am genuinely curious to see your work in this um space because I actually haven't been to Brenda's space before. So I'm really looking forward to coming and visiting your show. It's already in the diary.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, cool, awesome.

SPEAKER_04

But is that also like because before I forget, there's one thing that's on my mind that I've got to ask about. You got the knee pen hospital commission.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Yeah. So I just I like because I knew you were we were going to talk today, so I quickly called the um health infrastructure and the creative creative creative producer there to say, can I talk about it?

SPEAKER_00

Can I talk about it? So you're the you're the first person that I'm talking about. Goody.

SPEAKER_04

Goody, goody, goody. Don't worry. We're gonna we're we're we're gonna promote the socks off this thing. I could not be more happy for you. Congratulations, those big tenders are um they're um, you know, you apply and you apply and you apply, and to get one that's a complete win.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, well, I've never done it before. This is the only one I've done, and it's the only one that I've applied was sort of applied for, I guess. So I it was really interesting because I'm so new to this process. Um, and it's you know been three years and now it's all being put in now because a complete hospital redevelopment, it's a billion-dollar job situation. Yeah. Um and the first the first building, so stage one and stage two. So stage one, uh Nicola Moss, who's with Art House, she did the internal walls for that one. Yep. And for me, I think they started off with with putting forward 13 artists, and then there were three artists, and we all went in there and talked about what we were gonna do. Um, and then I got it. So good. Yeah, and it was nice too because I remember going up and it was nerve-wracking as anything, because I sort of went up into this room on top of the hospital, and there must have been oh, maybe 25 people in a room, but then there was a massive screen of maybe another 20 people. So, and I'm like, you know, and I just was like, oh, and I was nervous.

SPEAKER_02

I was nervous, and I was just like, oh, what am I gonna say? And everyone's introducing themselves, yeah, the you know, the head of the of Indigenous affairs or their head of brain surgery or this or that, or the nurses commission, or whatever it is, and and I was like, this is nerve-wracking.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I was like, oh, I'm Zoe, I'm the artist. Um, but what was amazing about it is that where I was standing, I was looking across the view towards the Blue Mountains. And we as children we spent because we had a house in Wetworth Falls um for years from when I was at the house.

SPEAKER_03

Beautiful area.

SPEAKER_01

Love that area. Yeah. And then my mum ended up buying a property in Mount Wilson. So I've spent a lot of time in the Blue Mountains, and it was just so nice to get this commission and to be able to over five floors had these big works. And some of the works are I don't know the exact measurements, but some of them are nine metres by maybe five or six metres. So that's fantastic. There's a lot of them, and they're big, and so and they gave me certain themes. So there's, you know, floor and fauna, there's um the valley earth, there's all these beautiful themes that I then had to work out how to do it. And I use the same method on like how I paint. I had wooden panels, I painted on them, and then we computer generated that laid them up on the computer. So I had all these different elements, like 50 different elements, and I made compositions on the computer. So it's very organic and they're printed on matte final.

SPEAKER_04

So when you see that process very well because I thought my husband does full-time. That's so my husband prints and manufactures exactly that and then stores exactly that. So I need to tell you process, but no, tell everyone else. Tell everyone else.

SPEAKER_01

No, it was it was interesting and it was really nice because obviously, you know, there was some sampling, and then when it came to these mats, it just it looks great because you could see the wood texture. You can see my little nits that I've done with the wood burner. You can like it looks might like my work blown up to you know 11 meters or whatever it the sizes that they are. And it's so yeah, next week I'm actually, I think all the works will be in and I will see it for the first time.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, that is so exciting. You need to make sure that you celebrate this win, don't just move through it. Sometimes I think when we accomplish these big things, we're so quick to kind of keep moving on to the next thing. But make sure you take some time for yourself to really um really reflect on this win because you know, you never know where these opportunities are gonna lead to. And I think um with a lot of these big tenders, you know, you get one that looks very good on a CV, it gives you more potential to get another one.

SPEAKER_01

So and now that I feel like I've I've because it was the only one I've done, it's really been fantastic to learn so much in how to go from an idea to from some sketches or from some examples to actually doing it. And it's been um, yeah, it's been rewarding. And also the the you know, the people at health infrastructure and the architects, they were just amazing. They were really so it was been really, really lovely, supportive little little group. And it's just yeah, it's nice. And if, you know, it sounds a bit of a downer, but um, he's all totally fine now. But my husband went through cancer two years ago. So be able to well, he's he's thank you, he's totally, you know, over it now and he's healthy now, but just going through spending so much time in hospitals and you know, uh people will say, you know, the nurses and how many people are there for you? And you're thinking, okay, well, this is such a responsibility and a legacy piece for me to do this, to know that I want to make those nurses who are having extremely long hours feel some sort of serenity. I want those people going into hospitals to have a level of escapism when they see my work. And and because they are such large works, I really do hope there's there's the little moments where they're like, oh, okay, I've just forgotten why I'm here.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

It's special, it's even more special for that reason.

SPEAKER_04

And I think as well, like, you know, there's so much science now in the zeitgeist to speak to the importance of art and how it neurologically literally changes our brains when we're around art. And I mean, there's so many of these hospital projects, there's um, there's so many redevelopments. So I think there's a lot of opportunity for artists out there, and you know, we've all got to just dig deep and keep applying for these things, and um, yeah, but you got the opportunity, and I cannot wait to see the photos.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I can't wait to see it. I'm just yeah, it's gonna be and it's it's it's also I love Nicola's work and I have for a while. Um, and she does like I layer with paint, she layers with um hand painted um paper. So it's really nice that th even though they're in separate buildings, it the works speak to each other to for more of a unified um output for you know for for one building to the next. So it's um yeah, it feels nice. It feels nice and it's it's yeah. So next week we'll go and check it out and see what it looks like, and I'll probably be like, Whoo, that's a big one. And I think it'll also expi it inspire me to just work bigger and bigger and bigger, hopefully.

SPEAKER_04

Uh well, I tell you what, what I might have to do, I might have to uh get a wiggle on, and what I'll do is I'll edit this one quick and I'll get it out, and then you can tag me in the photos and we'll put your interview up so that we can cross-link everything for the conversation. So that'll be good.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And um, yeah, like I I think as well, you've you've obviously developed this ongoing rhythm for yourself now within your creative practice. And I'm curious to know because you're actually one of my beautiful friends did one of your workshops up in Brisbane. So you're flying interstate to do workshops as well. So you're super busy at the moment.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

How did all of that come about? How are you finding all of that? I'm trying to think how it came about.

SPEAKER_01

I I got asked by the Grampians brushes, which they um it's um, they do them three times a week. They do a summer brushes and then a textile one and then one in September. And they the I the the woman who was running that had asked me, and just again, I think husband, life, whatever it was. Oh, and we're renovating the whole house in the middle of that as well. So I had to put that on hold. And then when the time was right, she's like, Well, how about you come down to September? And I think that jump started that was two years ago or whatever that was, and that jump started, was like, okay, well, this is a hefty six days of teaching. Um, if I can do this, two days will be a breeze. Um, and it was amazing because you go down there and there's 20, there's probably about 25, 30 other tutors. So for us as teachers, we're learning as well because we've got artists from all different levels of, you know, we've got Archibald finalists, we've got this, we've got, we've got all these people, people who travel around the world with their the art. And so you teach during the day and then you all get together at night and you sort of, you know, you're a bouncing ideas off each other. So it's like a residency.

SPEAKER_04

Sounds like a residency.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, probably, yeah, yeah, probably. So I've only done I've only done one residency, I think, but that was a solo situation. I wasn't around other people. So um I haven't experienced that yet. So um, yeah, so that started that off, and then I think companies have just started, uh, you know, art centres have just started, or companies who to do this sort of thing have just asked me to to do a weekend workshop. So I just did Melbourne last weekend. I am having a couple of months off. I'll do um Bien Artie in Brisbane and then I'm going to Western Australia for one. I'll do one in Sydney. So it's a really nice way for me to tap out of motherhood for a weekend. Yeah. Um go, yeah, hubby, you do it. Um, but also I think it's also it's it's interesting, especially with this exhibition, that for me to go off and problem solve very quickly for other people within two days, and then come back to my own work as well. With it kind of freshens me up a bit. Um so yeah, and I I enjoy it because it's as you know, and all artists know, you spend a lot of time on your own, and it is really nice to be in a room most of mostly women, and there's that community feel, and you're all patting each other on the back and you're going, no, that's great, and things that you can't see someone else can see, and it's this really nice, sort of really supportive environment. Um and I like it, and I like the fact that I can dip in and be super social for that, you know, three three days or whatever it is, and come back and be an introvert.

SPEAKER_04

I think it's interesting, actually. Like, I've been navigating a little bit of this myself because I obviously just came back from the corridor project residency. It was a couple of weeks back now. I'm gonna do a I'm gonna do an episode on like the follow-up and reflection on that. So I won't get too much into it. But the thing that was really interesting to me is like I I don't think I've stopped in the studio for probably oh, I'm gonna say over two, like haven't really had a holiday or you know, even longer than two days out of the studio. It's just been constant for me. And so for me to actually make work not in the studio, I didn't realize how much of a difference it would make. And then I've just so I've gotten back. The timing for everything with with me was really interesting because I finished those two works for the US. They got shipped off like just after I kind of got back from the residency. And now for the first time, I have this clear studio space with all of this inspiration that I've picked up and the feedback from the other artists, and then we had an amazing crit session with Lucy Stranger. Um there were so many amazing things that happen. And so I kind of had to get back, park all of those ideas until this US work was done. And now, now that that's done, I've literally come in here today for the first time to a blank studio. Like all the panels on my walls are fresh panels, so I'm like quite literally exploded when I got in here today. Yeah, and I'm approaching things so differently.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, but it's different. What's the main thing that's different?

SPEAKER_04

So instead of being a little bit more structured to my composition, so with the the excavated landscapes, I structure them like because the bones of the landscape are kind of the most important, I have to think backwards from most artists. So when most artists are building up in order to resolve, my first layers are more important. And so do you take photos?

SPEAKER_01

Or do you just remember?

SPEAKER_04

No, no, I do take photos, but it's interesting. So I actually start from really abstract, um, like walking drawings and plain egg wash sketches and little thumbnail studies that I would normally do. And that just helps me think about the environment in a more like in a less literal way, because colour is something that actually begins the process for me. Like I'll see a combination of colours and I'll go, oh, those colours are going to be layered. When it comes to the composition itself, there'll be kind of elements from the abstract drawings that I almost piece together. I'll use some photos and then sometimes I'll pull things in to like procreate and layer things, but usually not. Like it's usually a combination between sketches on site and images and somehow they all come together. But with this work that I've just attacked today, so I essentially, when I went to the Corridor project, I produced all of these small works on paper. There's something really immediate about them that I really like, and that immediacy gets lost in all the layering and the excavating. And I've been trying to find a way, I'm talking years now, to figure out this balancing point as to how I can get still the structure with the excavated landscapes alongside a bit more of an abstract approach.

SPEAKER_01

And it would be harder for you too, because for me, if I'm not not sure if I'm successful or not, but if I need that freshen to come on, I can just do a wash over the whole thing. Or I can do, you know, big brush strokes that are loose and this and that. Whereas all your stuff has been it's underneath the surface. Yeah, first of all, said, Yeah, it's difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so what I did today was I just came in and I kind of thought. But you know, I've got one drawing that there's something about it that I just really like. And I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna block in some shapes first. I'm not even gonna think, I'm not gonna plan. I'm just gonna block in some shapes. I'm gonna work really abstract, like what I did on these um works on paper. And there's some key elements on this work on paper that are clearly the structures of trees and rock formations. And I thought to myself, well, what if what if the background was actually more abstract and less kind of layered? And then it was just the trees that were kind of blocked up. So I'm I'm playing around with how I can kind of move things forwards and backwards, but not do the whole thing as excavated. Anyway, this is me just thinking we've No, but that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like that's what we all do as artists. We sort of get to a point like, okay, it could be subtle changes and we don't realize it, or we have to be really mindful of some big changes we want to make so we can push ourselves into a different sort of dimension. It's it's yeah, we're constantly teaching ourselves um on how to do things that are new and and different. And so we do feel like I feel like we're artists are a little bit like octopuses, like octopiers. Oh, sorry. We are, which are these creatures where if we can we know how to open the jar and we've done it 10 times, we're like, okay, well, how do how can we do something different now?

SPEAKER_02

How do we, how do we, you know, turn the jar upside down and put some paint on it and make it a bit more difficult for ourselves?

SPEAKER_04

Well, that's it. And I think like there's always like a key thing, I think, that we all have that we're chewing on that we're like for me, the one thing in my work that I've always battled with, and I know I've had conversations with the girls at curatorial, and it's like finding a balance between having a lot of movement and a lot going on and areas in order to rest. So inevitably, what happens when I excavate is I get a little bit sander happy, and I will just keep excavating and excavating.

SPEAKER_01

But can you not put the surface back on top?

SPEAKER_04

Yes, well, that's what I that's what I've been starting to do. I've been starting to kind of block things over the top, which feels really foreign to me, but it's like I can just I've got this like gut feeling that this new kind of method that I'm testing out with these few new panels, because I'm starting differently, it's like it's broken this um, this rigidity or this box that I've kind of put myself in. And it's like, okay, well, I'm just gonna break this box, I'm gonna start completely differently, and I'm gonna see where this leads. So I'm not and I'm because I'm like, yes, there's always people waiting for work and things like that. But I'm like, in my head, I'm giving myself a couple of months now to experiment.

SPEAKER_01

I think that's important. I think you do have to honor, honor your time in the way that you feel like it's necessary and just see what happens. But I feel like the last two works, well, the word, I don't know how many works you sent to Seattle, but those works seemed a little bit different too.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, they were. They I've been slowly nudging myself further and further outside the box and testing new things as I go, but it's a balancing app because I mean the galleries know your previous work, and so in the back of my head, I'm like, they're expecting this. I can't just throw the baby out with the bath water and do something completely different.

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. And you can, you can really stuff yourself up because you can go, oh, well, that works. Like literally the work I'm looking at right now. Um, and it's it's I shouldn't have done this, but I know the work will be fine once, but it's requiring a lot more work than what I thought. I basically almost mimics on the first, very first layer a the Hawkesbury art prize finalist piece I put into it. And I just know that I've I've always liked it, and it was something, you know, I was like, okay, well, like it got into it into an art prize, so therefore someone liked it there too. But I've just I've already given myself a preconceived idea of how it should end up, and now I'm like, oh, now I've just got to ruin that and start fresh and give it its its own journey and its own personality and it's you know, and not yeah, and I think it's important as artists that we have that courage to do that because we can get caught up in like, oh well, you know, they know that work and they like that work, and I've got to try to keep on that that vein of things, but sometimes the beauty is in the change.

SPEAKER_04

That's it. And I think as well, when you're with a good gallery that allows you to have flexibility, like I'll just speak directly to the girls at curatorial, you know. I've had stages over the last four years that I've pivoted and I've needed to get something out of my system, and you know, probably it hasn't worked, it hasn't been successful, only to come back to what I'm really doing now and getting that stronger. And so I think artists need to be allowed to make, you know, tragic mistakes at times. And it's like I'm, you know, it's always this balance between, you know, structuring, you know, your practice and having enough spontaneity, which is giving you um flexibility to shift where you need to. And I think, I think, you know, that's what the the residency and that's what these little works on paper, you know, have really done. It's actually Phoebe Stone who said to me, like, we were doing a crit session with uh Lucy Stranger that was amazing. And, you know, she, I don't think she's very familiar with all my previous work, but um, she's quite an intuitive being, young Phoebe Stone. And um, she said, you know, you're you're excavating. It's it has, it's always been a way of me excavating and kind of working on myself, my internal world. Okay. And so it's like this constant, incessant need to grow and get better, and what else can I get out of this? And it's like that shark mentality, that constant need to get further and further and further.

SPEAKER_01

So are you are you looking for, is there is it are you doing it in in the sense that you're like you're looking for that aha moment?

SPEAKER_04

I'm looking for a feeling. So I'm looking for this same feeling that I got with one of uh like it's a whole story. We I could go into like a whole whole podcast on the initial story, but essentially, you know, one of the first l landscapes that I ever painted, it just gave me this feeling of like, oh, I can't even explain. I can't, it was like this ineffable feeling. And I know when my works hit that because I get it again. So I know the works that are on, I know the works that are really successful. So these two works for Seattle, I got that feeling.

SPEAKER_01

And I was No, and it was obvious that you did. They were really strong works.

SPEAKER_04

That I feel I I and it's like I'm gonna say it, I think they're brilliant works. Yeah. And it's like that I can't always say that about all my paintings, but I am genuinely proud of those two works. And I think, you know, it's almost like this feeling of deja vu. And I don't know whether you get this, but when I hit a point of getting to exactly what I'm intending on digging for, it's almost like the works drop into me like I've painted them in the future. And I'm like, oh, well, duh. Like, of course, like it's a really bizarre feeling, and I can't, I can't put my finger on it, but it's a see, I think I might get it differently.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I get it differently in the sense that I'll have a number of works and they just won't work, and I'll keep painting and painting and painting and painting. I'm like, no, we need to get this going. But then there'll be something else that the first layer, there was something about it. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm just gonna leave you alone for like three or four weeks, and then I come back to it, and you're like, wow, yeah, we had something that was good from the get-go, and now I know what to do with you, but I gave you the space that you needed. Now I'm and it's this great feeling of like, yeah, yeah, okay. I gave you, I gave you space, I gave myself space, and I just it just works. And you're like, Yes, okay. Why can't that happen with all of them? But I think the struggle, I also like the struggle. I like the work, I like, I like the problem solving, but gosh, it's good when they just they work quickly, and you're like, okay, now I can just subtly go in and and fix the textures and the areas and then maybe the colours, but it's not, it's just you're working so much quicker than the other ones.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's isn't it interesting how they all are so different? It's like they do, and they've got their own little personalities about them. And you know the ones that it you're battling with, and it's like, you know, and you just gotta, you gotta force yourself to turn them against the wall and not freaking touch them for a period of time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that's exactly what you just explained.

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, and I don't normally do that, I gotta say. Like, I I think I was listening to you, I was I put one of your podcasts on yesterday and you were talking to um Tala, Tyla Brookman. Oh, Talia Brookman. Yeah, that was a good one. And I think you said something along the lines of um you would go in and then the next day you're like, oh God, what am I doing? Like, where am I going? Whereas I do the reverse. I will literally ruin a painting just before bedtime. And I sometimes paint till two o'clock in the morning, especially if I've got a studio at home, which is great because I've got it here. I don't, I'm here as soon as I drop the kids off, and you know, I'll be home at like six o'clock. So, but there I will paint from eight till two o'clock in the morning most nights. And it's that tiredness, it's not working. And I will literally get, especially if it's a big painting, like a hundred and fifty by 120 or something, I will get a big brush and I will paint a blue, dark blue wash over the whole thing. I'm like, I've ruined it. So when I go in tomorrow, the only thing I can do now is fix it.

SPEAKER_04

That's really interesting because that's the exact way that I attack my my works on paper, and that is the exact thing. That is the exact release I'm trying to get into my bigger work. So see, we were supposed to have this conversation today.

SPEAKER_02

But I also, it's funny though, too, because I'll be just like I will literally go to bed and you know, husband will always say, like, what time is it?

SPEAKER_01

Why didn't you get to bed early? And I was like, Oh, anyway, but it was all that frustration that pent up stuff that it just wasn't working. I'll paint the whole thing off. And then I'll go down in the morning and I'll be like, actually, it's not as bad as I thought. And there's things that I can work with. So that's why I like these happy mistakes, is because it they are mistakes and I need to fix them, but they've given me direction.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, it's really interesting. I was actually having a very similar conversation with some of my high school school students. So I'm teaching this wonderful group of high school students at my old high school, and they're high potential gifted education students. So they're they're the ones that, you know, have a bit of a knack for art. And so, um, you know, it's really interesting how our school system, it it what it does is it teaches kids how to tighten up. It teaches them how to sit in a very specific box and only focus on the end result. And so I'm coming in and I'm freaking shaking them up. I'm getting them to butcher their work. I'm getting like they like they will cringe when I come and stand behind them. Because I'm like, what if you try this?

SPEAKER_01

Well, no, well, I'm like that when I teach too. I remove works from people if I see them looking and thinking too hard. That's it. But it's upside down. Yeah. And I it's a good thing with art in schools because they need that release. They don't, it's not another class that need to do sort of, you know, cookie-cutting situation. It's they need to they need to have a release. They need that sort of like, oh, well, I can just be me. And if this is because art is therapy, and I think it can be frustrating, it can be amazing, but but it is a place of escapism. And I feel like in schools they need to introduce that a whole lot more.

SPEAKER_04

It's what I've been saying. I have been, I feel like I am like a broken record speaking to schools about the importance of art as a place of safety. They're all about well-being and stuff these days. And it's like all I do is talk about the mental health benefits, and it's so interesting because, like, for example, it it is hard, I will say, I'll be really honest. It's really hard to get kids engaged in process because they want a quick fix, they want an end result, particularly in nature. That's human nature. But where the interesting thing that happens is it's like when I'm when I'm sitting and I'm looking at them and I'm watching how they approach things, I'm not looking for their skill at all. I'm looking for their unique mark. And the thing is that they don't know what their unique mark is. So I'll give you a practical example. One student, he, I could just tell, you know, he when I had this conversation with him, he was telling me, he said, I don't really know much about art. Like, I'm not really that interested in that. Like he didn't really know why he was there. And I said, let's just, let's just set a stopwatch. And I said, I want you to pull out something that interests you. We're just gonna draw, we're gonna put a stopwatch on, we're gonna do 10 minutes. I said, I want you to fill this table with drawings, and then we're gonna look at them and we're gonna discuss them. So he was just moving, and because I put him on the stopwatch, he didn't have time to think, right? And we looked at this table and he'd drawn all these animals. And his mark, I kid you not, it was so fluid, it was so quick. And I said, This, I said, This is your gift. I said, This is not about you sitting and thinking about what the perfect animals are. I said, This is what we're gonna do for this entire term. We're gonna focus on quick mark making sketches. And I just saw, I saw this little thing go off in his head that just went, oh, I'm allowed to have fun. I'm allowed to, you know, not take things so seriously. And it's like I'm constantly saying to kids, start, it's just art. Have some fun. It's just pee, cut.

SPEAKER_01

No, but it's yeah, and this is and unfortunately it's not just kids, it's adults too. So I do a very similar when I do the first, very first exercise when I teach, it's literally just making marks.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like literally just making marks. And again, like you said, I can see their personality. So I can see whether somebody here's because they'll come and they'll tell me, Oh, no, I'm an accountant, I do everything very tight. And then the next thing you're looking at your page, their page, and they're loosening up and they're drawing from one side of the page to the other rather than doing in tight little boxes, or you know, so I'm just like, no, no, no, no, no. It's all in there. Like you know your your the the way you're making these marks is telling you, you know, what you need, but also it's giving me an idea of your, you know, your personality when it comes to art as well. And it it is interesting because everything does does come down to a mark. It starts with a mark, like that's where it starts. And I think back in the day, you know, I mean, I'm 50, so it's a bit different. But I remember, you know, you'd have your mum on the phone, she'd be talking to friends, and then there'd always be like a notepad by the phone, and there'd always be doodles on there, and there'd always be like some sort of patterns or circles or this or that, which we don't do now because everything's that is exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. It's um yeah, and someone reminded me of that on the weekend, and I was just like, wow, we we always had pens in our hands. So we were always making marks and we're doing this, and we don't do that now. And you know, people's handwriting was a personality, and you know, even their signatures told you a lot about them, you know. So yeah, it is interesting that these kids they don't have that. They don't do that, you know. Yeah, they're writing. Yeah, they're writing, and they've got to get the it's all got to be legible, but when it comes to using that tool to show expression, it's not really happening as much.

SPEAKER_04

And I think this is the thing. I think um one of the things we have to remind ourselves is that, you know, sometimes it's not about you d it doesn't have to be a tedious process. I think sometimes we we get ourselves in a state where we do start um tightening up and taking things too seriously, or you know, and it's like art is not a serious pursuit, you know, it is fun at the end of the day. This is how we were born into this world as creative beings. And it's like the the more that we can keep keep that part very loose.

SPEAKER_01

I agree, I agree, and I think also there's so many people that get, you know, it can be intimidating walking into galleries. And that's one thing I do like about Brenda is that she's she's just she's one of these angelic humans, she's just lovely, she's just lovely, and I think that's why I was like, yeah, okay, I want to show here, and also because of the person she is. Um, but you go into galleries and you can feel like, oh, am I what am I meant to know before I walk into this space? And for me personally, um I don't I'm recreating landscapes, so there's no place that you need to know about. You just go in there, and if it can remind you of something or it can trigger a childhood memory or this and that, but it really is just a emotional reaction, uh, whether you like it or you don't like it, whatever it is. But it's yeah, again, it's not that serious. It's it really isn't. It's not this sort of you don't I don't need to write a thesis on my artwork. It's it's my interpretation and me hoping hope um hopefully taking the viewer onto a bit of a journey. And that's it's not as complicated as I think it you know people think it is.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So I think it's important that people just, you know, enjoy it for a enjoy it because you like the colour. Or don't enjoy it because it's it doesn't it, yeah, you don't need to know about it. It's just I I saw somewhere, which no one does, I saw somewhere that you should really give artwork at least 15 minutes, which is a really long time. But I do find that the more I keep looking at my same work, I find new things in it and I find a new story in it. So I think we're so used to those quick reactions and we get need to get the knowledge out of it quickly. And I'm just not sure if that's serving us all too well.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, this is and I mean, this is exactly why I make the kind of works that I make, because I never, ever, ever want to make a work that someone can digest in one go. I want to make work that forces people to come back and come back and come back and come back. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, also because even with you, with the people we fascinated with the technique that you do, and then there are people that will remind them of gemstones that they might have had as a child that they were holding on. Or there's so many different things that it can access, you know, the thought and and the meaning behind it for them. So um I think art is a great thing to it's it's a it's a gr great way that we all need to sort of just enjoy it so much more.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, absolutely. And on that note, I want to ask you one final question because I'm really mindful of your time. And the question I wanted to ask is what is the one non-negotiable on your practice that keeps everything on track?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I would say that I don't go too many days without doing art. Yeah. So yeah, so and I think it's it's obvious when my mood starts changing quite significantly, I think. Um and look, I think I get I get if there's two days that I haven't painted, I'm pretty itchy. So yeah, so that's the non-negotiable. It's just like, no, no, no, no. If I'm if I'm doing this and and I'm doing it and my mood is changing, then my happiness, then my presence in my family, you know, in the family home or with other people, or how I interact. Like if I'm not filling my cup up, and this is my cup. So, you know, some people might go to the gym, some people might you know go and get their hair done, some people might read a book, but this is my thing. And um that quiet time and that time I can I can be an introvert and just connect with my paintings means that I'm a better person on the outside of that.

SPEAKER_04

That's essentially absolutely, absolutely. I think we are very, very similar in that way. I took my first full weekend out of the studio and two days, I realized that's the first time in over, well and truly over 12 months that I've taken two days off in a row. And and it was like I got in here today and oh man, was I ready to pick up a paintbrush.

SPEAKER_01

How good is I know, how good is it though we've got that? Like we've got something that we're so driven to, you know, get a paintbrush or for you to get onto the tools or whatever it is, that it's like, no, that's our happy place, and we've found it. Because people I feel sad for you know that people haven't found that place, and then once they do, and that's one thing that I love about teaching is that there are a lot of women who either they've been art teachers or they've you know had all the different types of jobs, but this has been something that they've always been interested in, and now they are some of them are retired, they have got more space, and they don't want to stop doing, and they're going straight back into it because they realize how nourishing it is for them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So we get to do it every day. Like we're winning at life.

SPEAKER_04

What a gift. What a gift.

SPEAKER_00

I know, it's good.

SPEAKER_04

And on that note, I just wanted to thank you so much for your time. I cannot wait for your show. We'll put all of the the links in the show notes and um definitely send me. Oh, you gotta send me a nice headshot. That's the one thing I forgot to ask for.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, we'll do.

SPEAKER_04

Um I'll do like a nice intro and all of that for you. But let me know any key things you want me to put in the show notes, and we will tag all of those people in the post and all of that sort of stuff. But this was a Such a good, well-rounded conversation. I just enjoy listening back to this.

SPEAKER_01

It was. It was thank you. Well, thank you for asking me. It was it's really nice. I'm actually um talking this Sunday at um SH Urban Gallery in it. So this is a really nice way to shake off a few nerves. Yeah. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04

You need to. I'm so sorry. I forgot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

It's just really, I just wanted to say thank you because you've you know, you've probably you know not shaking out all the nerves. Yeah, you are. It's good.

SPEAKER_04

That's okay. I just hope that they've got a really, really, really talkative person like me that just rolls the conversation.

SPEAKER_02

I know you're very good at it. You should, yeah. I mean, uh unfortunately you've got to paint, but if you did this full time, you'd make you know, it'd be a great career.

SPEAKER_04

Oh gosh, I love having these conversations. No, I just love making new friends. Like, I think that's the thing that I get out of like, you know, going to all the shows and just keeping the communication open with um like-minded people. And I think at the end of the day, this is what this podcast is all about. It's just, you know, the most authentic version of the creative life.

SPEAKER_01

And oh, and I think also the fact that you're promoting so much positivity, but also a sense of community is really lovely because you know, that's one thing I did like about when Instagram came about, is that there's some artists that you've never met, but you're like you've got a bit of a dialogue going on and you're patting each other on the back, and it's just like, yeah, okay, we need that on the days where we're feeling a bit lonely. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04

And I would love to think that, you know, like I do often think, like, I do have very strong values that I live my life by. And you know, if that's one of the things that I want people to feel is that, you know, kindness is a really big value of mine. And I do genuinely love celebrating other people, and I just think that the more that we can do that and support each other, the further ahead we can all get. And I just think that there's no point um putting various artists up on pedestals. I just don't think that there's it's necessary. I think at the end of the day, none of us have a clue what we're freaking doing.

SPEAKER_01

We're all figuring it out. And we're all doing very different things from each other, so it's just really it's really lovely to go, oh okay, you know, uh and you've said that you know, with the tender side side of things, I don't I feel like I'm new to that game. So everyone's got some information to share, and we're all making such different art from each other. So we might as well find friends in this crazy world.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely, 100%. So you have a good day of painting. I'm gonna I'm gonna go and now I'm feeling super motivated to just detect this panel to big ones.

SPEAKER_01

Well, can you do me a favor? Can you film the start of these? Yep, I will so we can all see it? Great.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, I will. I'll film it, I'll put it up as a reel.

SPEAKER_02

Good. Please do, please do, because I do like watching your rules.

SPEAKER_03

Accountability, accountability. You'll know which one it is because it's starting very different to usual.

SPEAKER_02

Good, no good. No, but it's nice also for everyone to see that that you know you're trying something new.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. And if you're one of my galleries out there, don't panic. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02

No, they're gonna be excited. No, they're gonna be excited to see what happens.

SPEAKER_04

No, but it's just a starting point. Like, this is the thing. I just wanted to start it differently. I'm still gonna excavate and stuff. I can still see what I want to do, but yeah, I just needed that freedom to start differently. Anyway. Yeah, yeah. You have a happy painting day. I can't wait to see your show. It's already in the diary, so I will be there. Oh, okay. And um, yeah, we'll we'll chat soon. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Amazing. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04

No worries. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01

See you back.

SPEAKER_00

Bye.