Headsmack: Conversations with Misfits
The Headsmack Podcast with host Paul Povolni invites you to listen in on conversations with misfits, mavericks and trailblazers. Join us as we explore the life of difference-makers and those who have stumbled, fumbled and then soared.
Be inspired as they candidly share their journeys and the aha moments that changed everything.
Headsmack: Conversations with Misfits
Ivy Malik / The Creative's Business Coach
Stop Overthinking, Start Earning: Ivy Malik’s Creative Business Wake-Up Call
In this powerful Headsmack episode, Ivy Malik breaks down the emotional and strategic roadblocks that hold creative entrepreneurs back.
Drawing on her experience as a restaurateur and coach, she shares how to turn undervaluation into empowerment.
You’ll learn why positioning matters, how to shift from referrals to marketing, and how to confidently present your prices.
Ivy also dives into the energetic side of entrepreneurship—reminding us that strategy without alignment won’t take us far.
If you’re tired of waiting to be discovered, this conversation is your sign to take charge.
Paul Povolni, the founder of Voppa Creative, has been a creative leader for over 30 years, with clients around the world. He’s led teams in creating award-winning branding and design as well as equipping his clients to lead with Clarity, Creativity and Culture.
Headsmack Website
I'm Ivy Malek, and you're listening to the HeadSmack Podcast.
Paul Povolni:Hey, welcome to today's podcast. My name is Paul Povolni and I'm excited to have another Misfit with me. I have Ivy Malik and Ivy helps creative entrepreneurs who feel undervalued, break free from overthinking and fear so they can price with confidence, sell with ease and build a business they love. A former restaurateur with 16 years of business experience, she's seen firsthand how creatives struggle to balance passion and profit. Now through Ivy Malik coaching, she blends psychology human design and the practical sales strategy to help creatives take control of their success without the stress. Ivy, so good to have you on. How are you doing?
Ivy Malik:I'm doing great. So lovely of you to have me. Last minute, but I love that we can just do it.
Paul Povolni:Yes, of course, we can just do it. Even with technical issues, I am hearing an echo in my earphones that we cannot figure out. And so if I start talking funny, you know what's going on.
Speaker 02:We'll work
Paul Povolni:through it. So Ivy, thank you so much for coming on and I love reading your bio and definitely love the idea of helping creative entrepreneurs who are undervaluing themselves and breaking free from overthinking and fear. But I do want to hear a little bit about your origin story. I want to hear a little bit about Ivy and where you started from. You can go as far back as you want, but let's hear a little bit about your origin story and how you got to where you're at now.
Ivy Malik:So I think a good place to start is when my dad told me to get a real degree. So I'm half Swedish, half Pakistani. My dad is the Asian father. And I wanted to become a film director. For as long as I could remember, I was always holding a video camera in my hand. I was filming. And I was having so much fun. Every presentation I could do in my school was I would do it in film format. No one did that at my school. And before you knew it, in the last year of my, of the high school, every presentation became filmed. They're like, wow, you could do that? And I started like this whole trend in the whole school and the teacher's like, oh, not another film. Like I started it. I should be okay to do it. But now everyone's doing it. I wasn't unique anymore.
Paul Povolni:So how did you get a love for that? Like, where did that come from?
Ivy Malik:It was my dad. He's really techie. He likes technology. He likes to be part of innovation. We were... We had computers really early on. We were on the internet. As soon as we could get dial up, we had it. He was like, we were calling people on, I think it was called net meeting. And we were calling random people. We're like, we're speaking to someone in the US. We're in Sweden. This is so weird. We're talking to random people over the internet and dial up. So he's always... He handed me the stuff. Yeah, he's a bit of a tech geek. So he handed me the camera and I'm like, wow, this is so much fun. I remember editing VCR to VCR, you know, with
Speaker 02:tapes.
Ivy Malik:So old stuff. So that's kind of like where it started. I'm like, wow, you can do so much with this. When I then said, hey, I'd like to go to film school and become a film director. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good idea. You can do what you like. And then when he saw how serious I was, he's like... Child, he doesn't call me child, but let's just say he did. He's like, child, you can have this as a hobby. Why don't you just get a real degree? And, you know, you can do this whenever you want. You can just do this on the side. You know, I was really good, two goody good shoes when I was a child. I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I should get a real degree. And so that's what I did. I ended up getting a master's in psychology at Edinburgh University, made my parents proud, went to a good university. I did that thing. But I didn't get to do what I wanted. So I was always on the fringe of all my friends who were in the art school because there are several universities in Edinburgh. All my friends were creatives and I would just look at what they were doing. I'd go to their galleries and I'd be like that person, like I didn't get to do this. I didn't get to enjoy it. And then so when This is a bit of a long story, so I'm going to cut short to... Oh,
Paul Povolni:you don't have to cut short. We've got an hour.
Ivy Malik:So I did the thing that everyone does. Went down to London, got myself a real proper job in the city, and made my parents proud again. In
Paul Povolni:psychology or in something
Ivy Malik:else? No, I didn't want to pursue it. I ended up not enjoying... I was such an amazing researcher, but I wanted applied psychology, and that university was more research-based over applied. In Sweden, you have to actually do a whole year of living life before you can apply for studying psychology, but I didn't want to do that. I wanted to go straight into university. And I understand why that is so essential, because had I had a little bit more life learning, I probably would have been able to make a better choice of the kind of university I wanted to go to.
Speaker 02:Right,
Ivy Malik:right. I just picked top university. I'm like, which are the top universities that I can apply for and make my parents proud? And I got in and I'm like, you don't say no to that. if I was wiser I would have picked the university that has a higher faculty in psychology rather higher reputation in university so you know at the time I think Edinburgh University was like fourth or fifth ranked in the UK so that that was merit according to my Asian side of the family yeah so that's I don't know what the question was, but that's why.
Paul Povolni:Well, it was whether you landed a job. And I asked if it was in psychology.
Ivy Malik:So I kind of tried to figure out what I was wanting to do. And it was... It was 2003, so it wasn't a great year to get work. So I was like, I'll just do anything. I want to be independent now. I don't want to rely on my parents because I didn't have to work during university. So I wanted to get a job. And then I just worked in the city because that's just what you did. Got a decent job, moved up the ranks. And then I met this guy who... asked me a question that no one had asked me before. I told him about my dream of like, I want to open a cafe where people can come and chat, you know, like the dream you have, chat and have wonderful time as Art Deco 20s, whatever, you know, all of that jazz. And then all my friends, they would dream along with me and they would say, wow, that sounds so amazing. You could do this, you could do that. But he asked me a very different question. He said, why haven't you done it yet? Not in an accusatory way.
Speaker 02:But
Ivy Malik:that question just blew my mind. I'm like, oh, why haven't I done it yet? And so I started planning. I'm like, okay. There is absolutely no reason that I can find that I haven't done it yet. I've been saving money. I have money to invest. I have a father who is an entrepreneur. He has money. I can ask him to invest. And all I need to do is build my business plan. and pitch it to him. He actually said no the first time. He's like, no, this is not a viable business. So I had to go back and redo a few things until I actually got the funding that I needed. And then he's like, yep, this is viable. Let's do this. So that's how I started my first business.
Speaker 02:Wow.
Ivy Malik:And then I did that for 10 years. And during that period, I'll just cut the long story short. But during that period, I fed my creativity. And I worked with a lot of, all my friends were creatives. So I could see them suffering in their businesses. They were being undervalued. They were undercharging. They were being taken advantage of. And that didn't sit well with me because they're my friends. So I went into protective mode and savior mode, which isn't the best mode to be in, but that is what I did. And I try to help my friends. I stood in as their agents. I did. I try to get them paid where they weren't getting paid. I tried to negotiate price for them and successfully. So, so they're, Parts that I just did for them because I love them. But then their friends came to me and said, hey, can you do this for us as well? And I'm like, I've got a business to run, but I can help you. So I started guiding. When I sold my premises that I had, I then didn't know what to do.
Paul Povolni:Now, what kind of a restaurant was it? I had a Swedish
Ivy Malik:restaurant. So I had a Swedish restaurant cafes and pop-ups and collaborations that I used to do. I did it for about 10 years. So it's a long time.
Paul Povolni:Yeah, well, you got a lot of experience and probably a lot of negotiation skills were developed in that time and a lot of understanding of business, how businesses are run and all of that, working with vendors and things like that, right?
Ivy Malik:Yeah, it's fast-paced. You need to be highly adaptable because you're customer-facing. There's a lot of sales that's happening every day. People don't realize it, but you're literally selling every day. You're selling an expectation, a dream. You're selling food. You're selling drinks. You're selling all the time. And when you're not selling to the customers, you're selling to your staff. You think this is going to be great. You can do it.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. Well, in 10 years, isn't that's pretty, no, you did 16 years in that business, right?
Ivy Malik:10 years in that business, 16 years in business at the time of your bio. I think it's like 19 years now.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. But so, you know, within that timeframe, you know, that's pretty awesome for a restaurant. Restaurants, you know, sometimes can really struggle. And, you know, so to achieve that length of owning a restaurant is pretty impressive. What were the big lessons that you learned from that that you started taking into your next phase?
Ivy Malik:All of it. I mean, there are so many lessons. It's a really good question, and I'm trying to figure out which ones to actually pick. But I think communication. That's the biggest thing that I took from that is how to communicate. Because I had to learn how to communicate with my team, my staff. It was a small restaurant, so 14 people full-time. Let me think. Yeah, so communicating with the team, communicating with disgruntled guests. You have hundreds of people going through every day. There's going to be someone who's not happy. It's impossible to make everyone happy.
Paul Povolni:And at different levels of frustration and anger and yeah, yeah.
Ivy Malik:Managing everyone's expectations when you do big events. So everything is communication. How do you get your supplier to get you what you need when they can't deliver? And you have to make that happen that they actually have to figure it out. How do you communicate that in a way that they do it for you, even when they say they can't? And then you get it done anyway. So I think communication is like the biggest thing. And people don't realize that business is all communication. How you speak, how you make yourself heard, how people respond to you. It's all communication. It's all communication.
Paul Povolni:Right, and how you de-escalate emotions when it comes to people giving over their money or dissatisfaction with what they feel they were wronged in some sort of areas, learning how to communicate effectively without matching energy to energy. Because that could quickly escalate an issue to beyond repair. And so learning that in the restaurant business is probably one of the toughest areas Because you're dealing with food. You're dealing with the basics. You're dealing with food. You're dealing with money. You're dealing with emotions. They have some sort of a relationship or emotional attachment to where they're eating, if they're with family, if they're in a social context. So I'm guessing probably the restaurant business is one of the toughest businesses because you've got so much random engagements that you've got to manage and expectations, right?
Unknown:Mm-hmm.
Ivy Malik:I agree. I think that I actually had, there's a lot of stigma for being in the restaurant industry. People think that you're not educated when you're in the restaurant industry. And I was faced with that. I think I was 30 at the time. And one of my staff members says, what, you've got a master's? And I'm like, yeah, I have a master's, but that doesn't even matter. Just because I have a restaurant doesn't mean that I'm not educated. You can be educated. Like the amount of skill you need to run a successful business generally is immense. You need so many different business skills. Every skill is needed. And then if you take that and if you remove the fact that a restaurant is a restaurant and It's still a business. It still needs marketing. It needs sales. It needs accounting. It needs people management. You need to do inventory checks. Everything is needed. And it takes every skill of a business to make it successful.
Speaker 02:Right. And
Ivy Malik:more. Maybe. I think every business has, maybe you tune in, tune out different things. levels of expertise that are needed so i don't want to say that it's like the hardest because there are some really tough businesses out there as well but using different skill sets but all the skill sets in every business are there it's just how much you need of one over the other
Paul Povolni:Right, right. Yeah, I
Ivy Malik:don't want to diminish any business.
Paul Povolni:Well, and the reason I said that is because you're dealing with potentially hundreds of people per day or lots of strangers per day that you've got to meet expectations. You've got to satisfy. You've got to give them a good experience. They've got to leave there satisfied and feel that they've had a good experience. And not a whole lot of businesses have that level of flow through, maybe a theme park, maybe something that has a lot of people coming in. And so I would imagine it is it is pretty tough and it does take a lot of skill to run it that I don't think people fully understand what that is. And the fact that you ran it for 10 years successfully is quite the achievement. So well done on that. Now, did you find that you brought any of the psychology learning into the restaurant, leading a restaurant and owning a restaurant?
Ivy Malik:Absolutely. I actually didn't realize how much I was doing it until I went into other businesses, until I went into other restaurants. And I was observing how they were doing their team meetings and their training days. I'm like, oh, you guys do this? And I was like, this is so different from what I do. So my training manual that I had, I had psychology of seating. Everything was psychology of. I didn't even realize I was doing it, but obviously it makes sense. Like how do you talk to sell more without them feeling like they have to buy more? And they're like simple things that if you go to many different restaurants and you see what other people are doing, every now and then you hear someone say like, I love the way that they asked me this. I'm going to use that. And one of the things that I did was implement same again. So you go to the table. It was a casual restaurant. So you go to the table. They're mid-conversation. You don't want to disturb. You kind of just like sit down at their level, wait until they're ready. They lean over and you kind of go, same again. And they go, yeah. And then you just go off and give them the same thing. They don't have to think. Like make it really easy for them to make a decision. You know, like they've got a drink, they're going, they're just mid-conversation, get them another one. So they're like little things like that, that I would recommend. Train them with like, how do you seat people so that they're comfortable, but it also benefits the restaurants when more people will come in? How do you then make people move? We had a small restaurant. So sometimes we're like, oh, you can't sit at a four table. We have to move you. How do you move someone without them feeling, I can't believe you moved me. That is the worst thing in the world. Teaching people how to say it in a way, do it in a way without giving away anything. Like you're not even giving anything away. But they're like, oh, I'm going to move. They can sit over here. You just create an environment where everything is possible. So I train them in all of these things.
Paul Povolni:I love that. I love that. And so what was the moment that you decided that you were ready to move? Was there a question? Was there a head smack? You said that previously it was a question. Somebody asked you a question nobody had asked you before. What was the catalyst or the head smack that moved you from a successful restaurant business into the next phase?
Ivy Malik:So I always promised myself that no one will move me out of my business. I will be the decider. So bad economy won't make me stop. Bad year won't make me stop. None of that. So I wanted to make the decision and I wanted to leave at the top, like my top. So in business, you have so many peaks and troughs. And I was on one of my highest highs after having, I had bad years as well, but I had many, many good years, obviously. That's just the nature of business. Also, I was through the recession, so I survived the recession, which is always- That's quite an achievement, yeah. Quite an achievement. I pat myself on the back for that. So I had always known that I would leave on the top. But I was pregnant. So that was a very easy decision. I'm like, I'm not having a child. I'm not having a restaurant child. My restaurant was my first baby. And then I fed a few other babies and made other babies. But now I need to let this one go. This one has done its job. So we were creating a family and I decided to sell.
Paul Povolni:Awesome. And so what did you move into? Did you take any kind of a break or did you launch into something fresh right after that?
Ivy Malik:So I took maternity. I had a really lovely maternity leave in Stockholm, but I'm a workaholic, so I was already building my new business. And that's when I kind of asked my friends, I'm like, I don't know what to do now. Like, The world is my oyster.
Paul Povolni:What do I do? Well, you committed 10 years to a restaurant like that was all you knew. And it's quite a crazy, time-consuming business.
Ivy Malik:Yeah. But I'm like, something different. What is my next calling? And my friends basically said, you should do what you did with us. And I'm like, what did I do with you? And then they articulated that I obviously helped them with their businesses and they're all creators. They're designers, illustrators, and stylists, photographers. And I'm like, oh, but is that a job? Can I
Speaker 02:do
Ivy Malik:that? Is that
Speaker 02:a business?
Ivy Malik:And I looked it up and I'm like, I don't want to be a consultant. Like that sounds so dry. I was imagining someone in a suit, you know, and I'm like, nothing against suits, but you know. I was like, I'm not a suit. No one's going to hire me if I say I'm a consultant. And then I came across something called business coaching. I'm like, I can do this. I've already been doing it. I've literally, I helped quite a few people start their businesses. I'm like, oh, maybe I should give this a shot. And then I started researching and then here I am now.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. Yeah. And so you immediately started with creatives or other kinds of businesses? Because obviously you had a lot of restaurant experience as well, and you developed these systems and the psychology combination. And so you had kind of a really unique perspective. Was it immediately with creatives or did you do some restaurant consulting as well?
Ivy Malik:You know, I'm glad you asked that because I'd forgotten. I actually was about to answer, no, it was immediately creatives, but actually that's not true. I did actually have I did have some clients who wanted to start a restaurant business. And it was the easy thing for me to do because I literally can still start a restaurant in my sleep. I'm like, this is what you have to do. Regulations are a little bit different here. And depending on the country, there are regulations that you need to follow. You need to understand what the latest thing is. But I did start there. And then for a little time, I had a business with my sister. because I didn't want to do too much. You know, it's hard going from having a team who does anything and everything for you to then me being solo. And I'm just used to operating as if everyone else will do things for me, which clearly I didn't have a team. So I brought my sister in to be my partner and she had never had a business before. So I needed to change her mindset to become more entrepreneurial. We had, we tried together for, We were in ideation phase for a long time and then we launched it. And then it was really tough for her because then COVID happened. And during this time, that's the sabbatical she took to build the business with me. But she ended up becoming, obviously, the parent who will teach and take care of the children during lockdown, which was a little bit unfair for her sabbatical from her full-time employment to be that. But we ended it. So we parted. We had a prenup. So it was easy. I call it a business prenup. So it was really easy for us to split. And then my business kind of took off. So together, her and I actually struggled. But then the moment she left, I did really, really well. And I've seen this pattern with me and I'm not proud of it, but solo, I do well. Because every business that I've tried with partners, none of them have worked. And I know I'm the problem because I move extremely fast in comparison to others. And it's really annoying for people because they need time to think, they need time to consider all options. Whereas I'm like, kind of like today, you literally said, do you, do you want to be on the podcast? And then you mentioned a few things and I'm like, actually, I've got some free time today. And you're like, let's jump on. And I'm like, that's it. I can do it now. Yeah. And that's, that pace is difficult for people. And I'm not saying I'm right or I'm good. I'm not. I'm saying I'm just a particular way. And it's hard to keep up because we'll think of a plan and my mind is still going. So night falls, I'm thinking, and it's not that I'm working all the time, but my mind is like, and then I've invalidated an idea. By testing something. So maybe I'll go on stories, ask a question. And I'm like, oh, these things didn't land the right way. Or I'll observe something else someone is doing. I'm like, we're changing. And I'll change and I'll pivot based on the data that is available. And it's just too fast. So if we have a meeting three or four days later, I'm like, I've moved on. And that's my, like, I take responsibility for not being able to adapt to the other pace.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. So now with that kind of a pace, you know, now we're transitioning to you helping creatives. That kind of a pace for creatives must be a little frustrating.
Ivy Malik:Yeah, but they're not in my business.
Paul Povolni:They don't have to operate in my way because they don't work for me.
Ivy Malik:So the pace that my clients set is the pace that we go on. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I also learned that very early on. I'm not a coach that has gone through any qualifications. I have the experience of business and I have the experience of life. So my business experience is my business coaching qualification. So the first client I had, I'm like, this is my advice. I was advising. I was coaching. And I was saying, this is what you should do. And, um, and I realized like I was building the business that I would build if I were that person. And that's not, that's not compatible for that person. I messed up big time with my first client and I owned it and, you know, we worked things out and everything, but that was a huge lesson for me. And I'm glad I had that really early on because ever since then, I'm like, I need to find out what you want is literally my first question. What do you
Speaker 02:want? And
Ivy Malik:then I drag your desires out of you. And then I figure out how we're going to make that happen at the pace that you want. And then I might question the pace because people tend to procrastinate and don't want to make any decisions. But it's not the pace that I would have for me. It's the best pace for the person I'm working with.
Paul Povolni:Right, right. Because working with creatives is definitely a different thing than working with... normal people. Because we're a strange breed. And sometimes the pop, pop, pop type direction can sometimes be actually frustrating for some creatives. Some creatives can thrive in it. I've seen them both ways. I've led creatives for 30 years. And I've seen some creatives where they work with a pop, pop, pop, decision, decision, do this, do this, head in that direction. They love the structure. They love the guardrails. And others are a more free flowing, you know, and for you to go in there and say, pop, pop, pop, do this, you know, by tomorrow, 10am, you know, blah, blah, blah, that for them, it's like the worst thing in the world. And so, you know, with you helping creatives, what was your first experience like? What was you mentioned some of those learnings that you had early on in working with? And what are some other things that you learned with working with creatives?
Ivy Malik:I mean so much but also it wasn't the first time that I was around creatives. All my life I've been around them. My husband has an award-winning design agency so I've seen firsthand how it is to have a small agency that makes multiple six figures and is extremely well regarded in the industry, has all the awards. So I kind of knew the pitching cycle and how it I saw what they were doing. So for me, it's not that I'm new to the world, but I was new in the position of, well, I'm your guide now. And I don't know what particular thing. I think the observation that surprised me the most was even with guidance, and I don't force anyone to do anything, but even with guidance and even with them saying, committing to something that wouldn't take action. And for me, that was frustrating. I'm like, we agreed at the timeline that you wanted and you're still not doing it, which is the detriment of you, not me. I still get paid, but I don't want to get paid if you don't do anything. Like that's not, there's no joy. And if there's no completion with the work that we're supposed to be doing together. So I've learned how to navigate that and it's not easy and there's no one size fits all, but it's really, me understanding the individual so much more that I can work with that personality. And every personality is different. Even though they exhibit similar traits, the way to actually tackle it tends to be quite an individualistic approach.
Paul Povolni:Right, right. Now, at what point did you feel to lean into about designers feeling undervalued and breaking free from overthinking and fear and things like that? Because you mentioned you'd worked with creatives and you kind of consulted them even while you were a restaurateur and all that. When did you feel that that was the lane that you wanted to start really focusing on and helping creatives?
Ivy Malik:I think that's been from the beginning. So no matter what messaging I may have had, what I might switch into and pivot into, whether it's sales or lead generation or marketing or anything like that, This is the underlying theme. Anyone who knows me personally will be like, why aren't you doing money mindset coaching? I'm like, well, because I don't want to be a money mindset coach. So price, money, and for a moment I was like, I want to change the school system, except that I don't think that I've got it in me to be able to do that because I'm like, that's where it starts. It starts the way children are treated in school. That's where the undervaluing begins of creativity. And I'm like, I want to change it all, except that I don't think I can. I don't believe that I can. So I'm like, I'll do what I can with the people who are already doing the business. And I'll see if I can have an impact there. So it's definitely an underlying theme from even before I started the coaching.
Paul Povolni:So when you're dealing with somebody that does come to you and they're like, I need help, you know, I feel stuck. What are some of the first questions that you ask them that helps you kind of understand them and for them to understand themselves?
Ivy Malik:I really want to understand. So first I have to build trust and they need to feel safe in letting me know what their inner feelings are. But ultimately, I need to know what they want. I really do start there. And they can just paint the picture. And it's rarely money. Nobody is wanting money. Everybody just wants to work on good, good, interesting projects
Speaker 02:with
Ivy Malik:clients who value them. And value does not mean money. It's like, I value you and your design and your creativity and the way you think about the project. That's the value that they're wanting to see recognized. So when I understand value, what they actually want and how that need is going to be fulfilled for them. What does that look like? I get to understand what they're really after. That's the starting point for everything because that becomes a foundation. I'm like, okay, if you're going to, sometimes it's an easy fix then because when they realize that what they want, they have, and they haven't recognized they want a little bit more, but they haven't faced it. They haven't admitted it to themselves that's when they can that's when they can actually level up to the next to the next stage we're like oh actually I do want some more money I feel like I could have more money and that would be great because then I can have a better life but I'm not in it for the money I'm in it to have a good business life and it would just be great so the money aspect comes in, but there's no client I have who is driven by money. And I don't take those clients either. Because I specialize in sales, I get a lot of people going like, yeah, I just want to make more money. I'm like, why? And then I just say no to them. Because making more money is, yes, for the creators, that's probably the line that I say. But the money is the byproduct of what you do. And that's a given. So it's always going to happen. If you're in business, you're going to make money. The question then is, how much money? And do you want to create a business that is going to grow as you can do more interesting work? Well, let's just get you paid well for that while you have fun.
Paul Povolni:Right. Now, where does the overthinking happen for them? Where do you have to start chipping away at overthinking?
Speaker 02:It's not
Ivy Malik:often on the craft or the skill that they have. There, they feel confident. My clients feel confident in what they do. They've rarely come to me and said like, oh, I have this design and I'm struggling. They don't come to me because they have creative block. And I know that I'm a business coach, so probably that isn't the problem that they're facing. It's usually price. That's the first. They're like, I don't know if this is a fair price. I don't know if this is, I don't know what to charge. Those are the early things that they will say. And then, oh, actually, there's one design part they do over their own brand.
Paul Povolni:Ah, okay. Let's talk about
Ivy Malik:that. Maybe I should rebrand if I'm repositioning. Maybe I should tweak something. That isn't really overthinking. Actually, that's just avoidance because they're like, oh, my comfort zone is this. I
Paul Povolni:know how to do this. I'm going to go to this.
Ivy Malik:Yeah, they can control that. So overthinking usually is on pretty much every business aspect. Not everyone has business problems, but there is every element of the business aspect that they overthink on. But mostly what I see is around price. and asking for the money. So they're like, oh, can I really ask for that much? Can I have this conversation and say that it's going to be 10x what I normally would charge. But there's so many different overthinking topics. I don't know where to begin.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. So let's start from the beginning. A designer comes to you and says, I'm stuck. I need to grow my business. I'm not making as much as I'd like to be making. What I think is I need to do a redesign. I think my logo sucks. I'm not happy with my logo. I want to change that. I want to change my branding. What do you do to get them over that misconception, if it is a misconception. Sometimes it could be, but if it is a misconception, how do you help them get over that saying that the problem is the visuals?
Ivy Malik:Okay. So I'll be like, okay, that's great. Thank you for telling me that. Is it okay if I ask you a few questions about your business and just to understand where you're at so I can have a better picture of the full picture? of the full business. And I'll start asking them about where their clients come from, how much they charge, when was the last time they had a sales call, and how many sales calls they had, how many times, how many visitors, people coming to the website. You know, I need to find out, what I'm trying to find out is what is their lead generation strategy? Then I'm looking at what is their sales skills? And then I'm looking at, okay, well, how much money are they making each month? And What have they done to try? So I'm trying to find out how much action have they taken on the business aspect of things. And when I understand how much action they've taken there, then I'll be like, look, you may want to rebrand. And I think that's a great idea if that's how you feel. You're the designer. You know your skill. But why don't we test out a few things first to see how we can fix your business foundations first? And by that time, I probably would have told them about their positioning. The positioning was probably a little bit broad and weak and needs refinement. They probably don't have a clear offer. So it's not clear what their customers are going to get when they land on the website or their Instagram account or something like that. They've By this stage, they would have realized, okay, there are a few things I need to work on. I try not to overwhelm everyone because I'm just showing all the things that
Paul Povolni:I could do. It'll paralyze people too, yeah.
Ivy Malik:Yeah, I don't want to paralyze them. So once they see that there is some work to be done, then I would obviously say, well... Why don't we work on the business foundation first? Because out of all the work that we're going to do, you may get inspired to change your brand again. And why don't we wait and see how that may turn out? Something along those lines. I mean, that would be my strategy in this moment that you've just described.
Paul Povolni:Yeah. Well, and I think for designers, you know, for them, the easiest thing is to blame the thing that they can change that they can fix that's easy for them and you know being honest about some of the other things and you mentioned several things that i definitely want to kind of pull that thread and talk about a little more uh you'd mentioned you know about the leads coming in and you know how they're getting a new business you mentioned referrals as well i think i think you mentioned referrals all
Ivy Malik:the people are relying on referrals right now
Paul Povolni:all of them right and so that's what i was going to talk about so if they say um you know right now it's referrals i finish one job. I get another one from somebody that's happy with my business and they refer me. How do you help them to move beyond that as a primary strategy?
Ivy Malik:So first of all, I just want to say referrals are gold. I think they're the easiest clients to convert. They should never stop. Let's never remove referrals as a source of leads. They're beautiful, they're great, but being reliant on just that, that's the dangerous game. So if someone comes to me and says that They only rely on referrals and they want to expand and do other things. One of the things that I hate about the coaching industry is that there's a one-size-fits-all. It's like, oh, do this, and then you'll get leads. No, you won't. If it doesn't fit you, if you can't nurture that system or that flow, it's not going to work. So I take a very... individualistic approach, very personalized approach. I need to find out who you are. What are your strengths? What do you like? What you don't like? Some people hate social media. They don't want to be on it. So how can I take your best strengths? And even if you don't like to do marketing, there has to be something. So the rule is if you want to be doing marketing, you have to choose something. So we have to choose the best of the worst if needed. So I have one client who says, I don't like social media. I don't want to be on video, so no webinars. I don't want to do podcasting. And I'm an introvert. And I'm just like, okay, do you like to write? And she's like, I can write. I'm like, okay, great. We'll go down the writing route. What can we do? So then there's the email. I'm like, do you have money to spend on ads? So email strategy plus ads, that's our route for her. Blogs, obviously. So building on the SEO, guest blogging, and And anything that is in the written form but not on social media is good for this client. So that is a completely different strategy. My other client is like, I love social media. I want to dominate. And they're on LinkedIn, they're on TikTok, they're on Instagram. I'm like, please, just do one. And they're like, no, I'm going to do it all. I'm like, great, okay, do it all, but do one really, really well. So, you know. Everyone has a different strategy. Maybe there's a podcasting strategy. How can I meet my ideal clients from a podcast? Or how can I use the podcast to attract more people? So if someone speaks really well and they haven't even thought about it, I'm like, look, we've been sitting here, we've been talking for 15 minutes nonstop and it's super engaging. Do you have a podcast? No, I don't. Do you want to do a podcast? Oh my gosh, that sounds amazing. Now I found a lead generating strategy for them. So... The key is to understand all the different marketing systems so that you can implement it in the business for the person who can benefit from it the most. And that's the ultimate primary strategy. And then after that, things just become easier because you enjoy it. You enjoy writing. You enjoy being on social media. You're going to sustain it because marketing and business is forever. It's not going to stop. Because the way, even if you can have a system that perpetuates itself, it needs management. So ads, you can't just put ads out and leave them to run. You have to make sure that they're responding as they should. And if they get fatigued, you need to update them. How do you know? You need to do some market research and gain some more insights in order to actually create a new ad strategy. So marketing is forever. And I think the sooner most entrepreneurs can accept that, the better.
Paul Povolni:Right, right. And then one of the other things that you had mentioned too, So referrals are not ideal, but they're awesome because that's people that love you, share you, and tell others about you. That's an amazing way to grow a business, but it's not a secure or a...
Ivy Malik:Reliable,
Paul Povolni:maybe. Reliable. Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. It's not a reliable way to do it because you've got to get other ways of generating leads through the door. But one of the other things you had mentioned that you do early on is looking at positioning. So talk about that for a little bit. It's a term that maybe somebody has heard, maybe they've heard it, but they're not quite sure what it is. When it comes to positioning, I think it's critical for any business, particularly designers, but talk about positioning and how that matters and how that makes an impact on a business.
Ivy Malik:I think in really simple terms, it's the way that I would describe it would be, well, if you're going to get picked, how will people know to pick you? And you're Your positioning comprises of your values. It needs to be there. And it's not all packed into one sentence, but it's the whole brand itself needs to be positioned in a certain way. Who are you for? Who are you against? Your price is really important in this as well because it positions you. How do you want to be perceived? Who do you want to select you? All of that is extremely important. And I use niching strategy in this, and I know people hate this. I think it's the simplest way. I like to take simple ways. I don't like to complicate things. And niche marketing strategy is a really easy way to start positioning yourself. And the way that I help people do this is, because there's so many different ways to do this, select a sector. let's just say skincare for now and then select a characteristic. So maybe it's vegan skincare or I'll just go with, I can't think of, I'm just going to go with vegan skincare for now because I bought some vegan skincare earlier today. So vegan skincare. And then the more defined you are in selecting who it's for, again, Let me just rewind. I think a lot of people think that being niche as a designer is like, oh, I do brand strategy. I do branding. I do logos. That is a service you provide. So alongside the service you provide, if you add the service, who is foreign or characteristic to it, you're going to have a more unique niche. Now that could be everybody. So then how can you differentiate yourself against all the other people who work with vegan skincare? And the way to position that is going to be through the market research that you do by interviewing people and understanding what they want, how they want to be spoken to. And you'll use that language in order to position yourself as the chosen person, by chosen brand, by the people that you're actually wanting to work with. I mean, that's the way I do it. And I know there are experts out there who are doing it differently.
Paul Povolni:No, that's great. In
Ivy Malik:my world, that's for me.
Paul Povolni:Yeah, yeah. And I think positioning definitely makes a huge difference. And the more you can niche down definitely helps, even within vegan... skincare, is it for teenagers? Is it for senior adults? And niching that down as much as possible, even based on ethnicity and based on regions and based on sun exposure. And you can get really niche with a lot of those things and then really dominate that market in a way that you couldn't if you were just a skincare company.
Ivy Malik:Exactly. And there's so many... There's so much resistance towards niching. So one of the analogies that I use is, let me choose, I have so many different ones. Okay, let's imagine that I'm in a huge room full of hundreds of people. And I've lost you, you and our friends. And I'm like, oh, Paul, he's amazing. But I want to recommend you. And I met someone in this room. but I don't know where you are. So I'm like, oh, there's a guy called Paul. I really want you to meet him. When you see him, you must say hi. But there's no way to find you. Now, if you're niched, I'd be like, Paul, stand in the upper right corner. I'll send people to you whenever I see you, right? You're niched in that upper right corner. And I'll be like, in this big room, I'm like, you know what? Go to the top right corner over there. You'll see Paul. He's absolutely fabulous. Boom, people are going there. It's so easy to direct people when you're niche. And the beauty of it is you're still in that room with the hundreds of people and everyone else can also come and work with you if they want to, because there's someone up in the top right corner over there that everyone's wanting to hang out with. I want to go there too.
Paul Povolni:That's why
Ivy Malik:niching is so beautiful.
Paul Povolni:Right. Well, and then also, like you were saying, it allows people to accurately recommend you. And, you know, if you're about, especially if you're about the referrals too, you know, is how do they recommend you? And so, you know, it would be, you need to go to Ivy because she has organic skincare products for, you know, young adults that live in sunny areas, you know, like Florida or wherever it might be in Hawaii. And she's the person you need to talk to about that, that need that you have, as opposed to, you know, well, you've got a specific problem. Well, Ivy kind of does skincare, but I don't know whether she can help you, you know, type thing. So I think that's where that positioning really makes a big difference in any kind of a business is it allows people to know how to recommend you as well. The other thing that you'd mentioned is, you know, once you kind of get, find out where their flow is coming from, you find out, you know, where they're positioned, you know, you're moving into their, what's the next step? What's the next thing after that they start moving into? Is it offer? Is it pricing? Where do you go after that?
Ivy Malik:So we'll go into offer and pricing. Let me think. There are a lot of moving parts that happen concurrently. So it's not really linear in business. You might get a lead come through and you need sales training. So It really is dependent on where they are in business. But if we go in a linear way, like, okay, so now it's the price and offer. I don't love offers. I'm not a huge fan of offers, but it's what the market wants. So I give the market what it needs. I love offerless selling. I love being able to just hop on a call and understand what people need and provide them what they need within my expertise.
Paul Povolni:Why are you against offers?
Ivy Malik:Limiting. I can feel like it's limiting. I think that everyone should have a measurable transformation. So something that is a transformation that you provide. So that's great communication for your social website or any way you print what you do and describe what you do. That's really key and that's really important. But with an offer that attaches a package to it, I don't love that. I... I like for people to jump on calls with people who have problems with the transformation that they require and then see the kind of offer that would be suitable for them. But not everyone is skilled at that. So I also have to meet my clients where they are. So some have an amazing... You know, some are fast and they can think on their feet and go, I can see this. I can see this. I can see this. Great. I know how I can support you. And this is how much it will cost. Some of my clients, they need to know, they need to go away and think, which is why most people don't give a price on the sales call. So what they'll do is they'll need to think about it. So which means they need to come in to the call with a pre-purchase conceived price that they're going to sell, which also means they're assuming there's a problem that is needing to be solved, which is why I don't like, I like offer less selling in that respect.
Paul Povolni:So, you know, with, when it comes to something like creativity and creative solutions and creative services, you know, a lot of times the answer is when somebody says, how much is this going to cost? The answer is most of the time for creatives from what I've heard is that they say depends. So how do you help designers get beyond saying that? Or is that okay? Or how do you help them to answer that question of, so how much is this going to cost when they're on that sales call?
Ivy Malik:So they need to gather all the information before they even get to that point. So the way to never have to say it depends is by gaining the information you need to satisfy the answer before it actually shows up. The other way is to price in a way that you're always profitable and always know your floor. So if you're saying it depends, I'm going to make an assumption here which may not be accurate for all. So disclaimer there that this won't fit all. If you're saying it depends, it's likely that you haven't had enough sales calls to know exactly how much everything should be costing. But the moment you sit in front of someone, you're like, okay, hmm. business of 50 people you have three products you're selling okay i'm making these random numbers up there are 50 products you're selling you need a packaging design for this range is three different designs you kind of will know what it will cost because you have the experience behind you because you've done it before you've priced it before so you you kind of know a business like this has a has a budget of 35 or 45 or 100 you already know that which means that The depends isn't going to be dependent on whether you have to think about it and see how much does each packaging cost or how, you know, you won't have to do all of that because your instinct to be already know. And you already know your floor. You know that if I get 20K for this job, I'll be fine. Now I just need to make sure I can get the most out of this based on what they want. So what they're able to spend. So suddenly it's not a question of, am I profitable? The question is, how much more profitable will I be?
Unknown:Yeah.
Paul Povolni:Yeah, I like that. And it does come from experience and it does come from forethought, you know, of looking at history, looking at what you estimate the time would take and saying, you know, projects like this typically start at, you know, and or range between this amount and this amount. Because it also helps you, I guess, filter out, you In those sales calls, people that are just tire-kicking, that expected something for far less, it saves you a bunch of time if you're able to, within that phone call, give them a price because you're no longer having to then get back to them and then back and forth, back and forth. And finally, they say, well, it's not in my budget. And so I would guess that would help as well. With designers, when it comes to pricing... That can be sometimes tough for especially young designers, new designers, designers that haven't done it for a while. What are some of the challenges that you help them with so they can price with confidence?
Ivy Malik:Okay. So there are two groups here, the skilled and the non-skilled. So let's take the skilled ones for a second. So with the skilled ones, they have several years behind them. sometimes even 15, and they're charging less than the graduates. So they don't know what's out there. Biggest problem in the industry is that people don't know what their peers are charging. Everyone's like, I don't want to tell other people. It's so
Speaker 02:secretive, yeah.
Ivy Malik:Yeah, super secretive. What if people were just open about it? It would just improve everyone's status. Everyone would be able to understand, oh, All my peers are charging 5,000 for a logo and I'm charging 200. I should change my price. You know, people don't know. And then the range becomes so huge. And that we can't change. So we'll be like, okay, let's just go with that. So we've got the skilled creatives who have skill behind them. So my first role is to let them know that they are skilled. They think that they still, every creative I know, they're still thinking they can improve their craft and they can and their skill. I'm not saying stop doing that. But at some point you need to recognize that I actually do have a lot of skill. I am good at what I do. And the imposter obviously creeps in there and say like, oh, maybe I'm not good enough because people aren't willing to pay me what I want. So they start devaluing themselves even more because they think They feel that, well, if I can't charge more, then maybe I'm not worth it. And that's the first hurdle to get over. So once they recognize that they're skilled, and once they hear what other people are charging, they actually feel ready. They're like, oh, okay. So I had one client who did this. He was charging $1,500 for a website. And I'm like, oh, I'm like, how long have you been doing this? I checked, I check all the things. I'm like, are you good? Are people, are you delivering what they, what they want? Are people coming back and are they happy? Are they referring you? When I get all the check marks, I'm like, okay, so just wanted to let you know that I have clients in your, in your caliber who are charging 10K plus. He's like, really? Two weeks later, he just, he, he, he sold the 10K website. All he needed was the knowledge and the permission that, he's good enough and that others can others are doing it so therefore he can't do so everyone's situation is different but the skill creatives it's a lot easier to kind of make them see and then it's about gaining that confidence and the confidence is from doing a lot of people forget this because the moment they're like ivy i just doubled my rates and they said yes i'm like yeah do you want to double it again okay i'm gonna try you know
Speaker 02:yeah
Ivy Malik:so We gain confidence from trying new things. And when it doesn't succeed, it doesn't need to knock you back. But when it does succeed, it's confirmation that you're on the right path. And you won't know unless you try. So go ahead and just try. With those who are not skilled, I don't usually work with entry-level creatives. So I cannot speak from experience on this. But I would definitely say you need to gain the skill. Skill is important. So I am not an advocate of charging an exuberant amount of money if you don't have the skill to deliver. I'm not on that faction. A lot of people hear me say, charge more, charge more, because that's a narrative that I have, but they never read the full context in which I say this. So I'm saying it here, now, loud and clear. If you can't deliver to the expectations of the client, you have no business charging more than what they value it as. So the client is still the person who's setting the level that is appropriate for It's not me, it's not you, it's not the designer. The buyer, if they are not going to be satisfied with a product, even if you charge less, you're overcharging. If you're charging 10K, they're not satisfied because they're like, this is not what I asked for. I'm not talking about subjective, I like it or not. I'm talking about the actual delivery to the standard that you said that it's going to be delivered at. Then you're overcharging. then you're not charging correctly, I should say. It's not even overcharging. So with new people, I would say just... Oh, I need a specific scenario. I'm not sure if I can... Just do the work and look at your peers. I think that's what I would do. Look at your peers of the same experience and see what is the going rate there to... to give you an idea of what to charge. And I'm not a fan of saying, look, you must charge what everyone else is charging because you could be an extremely skilled person without the experience. So in my charging more trifecta, I have three things, confidence, experience, and skill. And skill and experience are two different things. You can have experience of 10 years and be a shit designer.
Speaker 02:Right, right.
Ivy Malik:Yeah. Yeah.
Paul Povolni:For me, it would be very similar. I love exactly what you said. I love the matrix of the confidence, experience, and skill. I think definitely understanding What else is out there and what others are pricing and being fair based on your skills and the level of solution you solve. If you solve a $10,000 problem, you need to be paid $10,000 as opposed to it's a $10,000 problem and you're only charging $1,500 for it. And so you definitely need to look at how big of a problem it is and how valuable is it for that problem to be solved and then charge Yeah, I love that. I agree. Now, when it comes to sales, you know, for designers, you know, that's the tough thing, you know, for creatives, for anybody with a creative, you know, the sales part is probably one of the things that they feel that they are not capable of. And I think they are, but they might feel that they're not. I don't do sales. I'm not a salesperson. I don't want to be salesy.
Ivy Malik:Yeah. So if you said that to him, I'm like, that's great. You don't have to be a salesperson. You don't have to be salesy. We're off to a really good start. Do you want to make some money? Shall we figure out how to do this without being salesy? The way you see me right now, this is how I am. I'm not deadly serious all the time. I tease my clients. I joke around. This is me in a coaching session. The thing that we want to get to is what the fear really is. You need to understand why. And when we understand why they don't want to sell, I actually haven't come across anyone who repeatedly wouldn't do it. Taking sales calls, they're all willing. Everyone's willing to try. So that's a great thing. The thing that's hard for them to do is actually share the price. So that's where a lot of the work goes. How do I talk about money on the call? How do I get them to tell me what the budget is? How do I deduce the budget? Because you don't always have to ask them to tell you the budget. You can just deduce it and then confirm it. So once we find out the fear, if it's a deep-rooted problem around the sales aspect, then we can tackle that. But it's the same with the pricing. Like, What is it that's holding them back from actually talking about money? And then we do a lot of sales role plays. I have one coaching session, which is just sales training. And we'll play different games that I've concocted on how to do the role play. Sometimes I guess my problem is literally just that, ask
Speaker 02:me
Ivy Malik:questions. Ultimately, what I find is in all the sales calls that I've analyzed for my clients and I've done hundreds of them. First of all, people don't want to record the calls and it's essential. If you're in business, please record your calls because if you can go back and watch yourself, which is excruciating, you'll see where you went wrong. Now, when you look back at a recording and you see what's happening. It's going to be easy to judge and critique. So every time that happens, don't be so harsh on yourself, but do learn from it. Do pick up the things. And the way that I usually analyze a cause is I do it on, I don't watch it several times over. I watch it once. I'll pause and say, here, right here is an opening you missed. I'll know they missed it because I would have heard the question they went into. And what I train people to do is to have better conversations. And when they have better conversations, they don't fear having sales calls anymore. They're like, oh, I didn't even feel like you were selling to me. So when we do the role plays, I'll sometimes be the person selling. And then they'll be like, no, I felt comfortable in the conversation. I felt that you weren't pushing. I'm like, I wasn't pushing, but I was clear. I was clear in what I was proposing. But you never felt pushed because maybe I used a different type of body language or tone or the words I used were chosen in a certain way that it would feel nonviolent. So once they understand how to actually have a conversation, they feel more confident going into the conversation. But then the actual exercise I give them to get comfortable sharing the price is is a really simple one. I literally tell them to face the mirror. And I did this thing with one of my clients. He's a coach actually. So he used to charge 60 pounds an hour. And I'm like, what do you want to charge? He's like 500. He's like, but I just can't. I'm like, okay, great. His homework was go, and tell your whole family you charge 500 pounds an hour. I needed him to get used to just saying it. To like, hey, wife, I charge 500 pounds an hour. Hey, daughter, I charge 500 pounds an hour. And just keep saying, keep saying, you know, it took him about a week. And I'm like, how much do you charge? And the way he said it on the call, he's like, 500 pounds an hour. I'm like, no, go back homework. You're not there
Paul Povolni:yet. Keep saying it, yeah.
Ivy Malik:Just getting used to saying it is going to make it more comfortable. You don't say price out loud to anyone. Of course, it's going to sound weird to say it's £500 to work with me for one hour, or it's £10,000 for a brand strategy. If you don't say it out loud, you're going to get scared by your own voice and your own words. I don't think I've ever said to anyone's 100,000 pounds to work with me. I just felt a little bit scared right now. I'm like, wow,
Paul Povolni:shit. Sorry, can I
Ivy Malik:swear? I don't know.
Paul Povolni:Yeah, yeah, that's fine.
Ivy Malik:100,000 for like coaching with me? That's insane. Of course, I'm going to be scared of saying that. I'm human too. But if I say it enough... then the time that I say it, at least I can hear myself say that I'm used to it. So mirror work and talking to the family. I also say, if you've got kids, sell to your kids. Your kids are like, they're going to ask you questions then, or try to sell to them. They're going to be the best kind of sales role play that you've ever had.
Paul Povolni:Yeah, that is so good, man. I think for somebody that's a head smack right there because your words are powerful and the words that escape your lips are super powerful. And when it comes to pricing and talking to somebody about what you do, if you've never said the words, it's hard when it first comes out. And so practicing, like you said, in front of a mirror, saying it to your family, saying it out loud, voice record on your phone and say the whole thing Just get the words out past your lips. It's incredible how liberating and how freeing and how transformative speaking those things. That's why the words we speak are so important. I love that. Well, I can't believe how quickly time has gone. And thank you so much for your time. This has been an amazing conversation. And before we wrap this up, I usually ask this of guests. I've started doing this recently, and it's a great way to just make sure that nothing gets unsaid. But what's a question that you wish I'd asked you or a head smack that you'd like to share that maybe we didn't cover already?
Ivy Malik:I feel like you should have an answer, but you ask me really good questions. You're a great host. Hmm. Oh, now I'm going to come up empty.
Paul Povolni:Oh, that's okay. That's okay. No, it is quite a deep question or a tough question, especially if you haven't prepared. But I know sometimes I get a chance to have these conversations with people that are just brilliant at what they do. And sometimes there's something that comes to mind as we're talking that they're like, well, I really wanted to say this, but he moved on to the next question. And so I give opportunity for that. And if you don't have one, that's absolutely fine as well. So I'll give you another second. What's that?
Ivy Malik:I feel like I'm letting you down.
Paul Povolni:Oh, absolutely not. No, this has been amazing. So much gold and so much value, especially for creative entrepreneurs. And even just your journey from being a restaurateur has just been a wonderful share and I loved hearing about it. So if people want to work with you, if there's a creative entrepreneur and they're struggling, they just need somebody to be there to help them, to challenge them, to take them to the next level, how do they get a hold of you?
Ivy Malik:You can follow me on LinkedIn, on Instagram, connect with me there. If you're listening to the podcast, I'm happy to answer any questions that have come up from listening to this conversation. And of course, my website, ivymalik.com. So it's my name on everything, ivymalikofficial on Instagram.
Paul Povolni:Perfect. Well, I will have the link in the show notes and this will be out. And I think you're going to be able to help a lot of creatives. They're going to rethink some of the things that they're doing. I think you've shared some incredible head smacks and great ideas and thoughts on running a creative business that I think a lot of the ideas are relevant. awesome even just for running any kind of a business. I think your mirror exercise, speaking the words out, if you're any kind of business, whether you're a roofer, whether you're a mechanic, whether you're a coach, whether you're a therapist, just simply even doing that exercise alone will take you to the next level because getting it out the first time, saying the words first time, just like saying I love you the first time to your significant other, the first time is the toughest time, but then after you've said it, it's a lot easier. And so I think what you've shared today has just been amazing. And I think it's going to help a lot of people. So thank you so much, Ivy, for coming on.
Ivy Malik:Thank you so much for having me. You do ask incredible questions. And you know, I just thought of the answer to your head smack question.
Paul Povolni:All right. Can I respond? Yes, absolutely. I
Ivy Malik:think the question that I would, the question is, is there something beyond the strategy that would change the fate of the business. I don't know if that's the right question, but something along those lines. Am I meant to
Paul Povolni:answer the question? Yes, absolutely answer it.
Ivy Malik:Yeah. So I think that our conversation has been incredibly strategic. We've obviously hit on some emotional notes as well, but it's been a strategic one. And I think that there are two elements to business and running a business. One part is a strategic part. And I obviously talked a lot about the person, the individual, but that part is the energetic part. And I don't come across as a spiritual person, and I don't want to be defined as a spiritual coach. But I find that if there's no energetic alignment with what you do, and you only work on strategy, and you only work on the superficial level, and you don't go internal and actually align yourself fully with who you are and what you want, then there's usually a disconnect and it doesn't work. And I see this time and time again with people who say, I do all the right things. I tick all the check boxes, but it's not working. And I do the mindset stuff. And I'm like, okay, let's review. And I'm like, yes, you are doing all the things. What is it that's missing? And at that point, we actually go into a much more deeper level, which is the spiritual side of things. And I don't mean to go completely woo, but energy. Like, what is the energy you're bringing to the call? What is the energy you're bringing into your marketing? Because at an energetic level, there's also connections to be made.
Paul Povolni:Right, right. Yeah, I love that.
Ivy Malik:That opens up a whole new chapter.
Paul Povolni:Man, I know. Now I'm like, I've got questions popping up in my head now. Yeah, I love that. Okay. That's really good. So for somebody that's where they're stuck, that's where they're, okay, now I've got the strategy. I think I've got the strategy. I'm feeling a little more comfortable with my pricing and my sales. I feel fine with my creative ability and all that. How do you get them to start thinking about that a little deeper? Are there questions that you ask them? Are there things that you do?
Ivy Malik:So I'm a deeply emotional person and very often, I even notice this in my coaching. I don't say like, oh, how, how does that, I don't even know what the other question would be, but I'm like, oh, how do you feel about that? I always say feel. It's like, are you connecting with your body? What is your body telling you? So I, it, only 98% of the brain is in the, sorry, 2% of our brain where is in the awareness region. Everything else is conscious. Now, if that's the case, how do we access that? Well, our body speaks to us. Our body is able to tell us things that we're not consciously thinking about. So if we can tune into our body and listen to our body, we're going to know much more. So our intuition, our gut instinct, our emotions, they are cues which If we ignore and just think about, okay, these are the strategies that I should do. This is what I read about. This is what someone told me I should do. We're going to miss the deeper things. You know, I have some clients who we literally throw out all the strategies. I'm like, stop, we're not doing this. And I literally just do what they feel that they should do and they blow up.
Speaker 02:Wow.
Ivy Malik:And it's, It goes against all marketing rules. It goes against the sales rules. It's just a strategy for them because it just matches the energy at which they're at. I have a past client. In the past three months, he has got another 100,000 followers on Instagram from just doing this. It's insane. Like the growth. I'm in touch with a lot of my past clients. I'm always looking at like, you know, what's happening, what's growing, what's not working. And so I think it's so crucial in business to look at everything as a unique thing. I couldn't find my words there. So everyone is unique. Every situation is unique. And we need to find something that fits that particular situation. It's not one size fits all. It's not like, oh, do this and then you will gain success. You may not. We need to look at the whole picture and see what will actually work. And testing. I'm a big fan of experimentation.
Paul Povolni:Now, when somebody doesn't have that in place, what does that look like?
Ivy Malik:You mean the energetic side?
Paul Povolni:Yeah.
Ivy Malik:There's a disconnect, right? You know, sometimes you read posts, you're like, technically this is a good post, but I don't get it. Like, I don't feel it. I think it's that thing.
Speaker 02:Things just don't... Things don't work. I think it's just connection. Yeah,
Paul Povolni:yeah. Well, and you could sense it and... Yeah, and this has been a great bonus session. Or you feel disconnected, you feel trapped, you feel like I'm not fully the me I need to be, like somebody who goes and studies psychology, right? And they wanted to be in the creative stuff, right? You just, you know, your energy was not focused in the right place, even though you excelled at it, and you did well at it. But that's not where your heart and your desires and your passions were.
Ivy Malik:You're a great host.
Paul Povolni:This has been so much fun, Ivy. Thank you so much for coming on. And be sure to check out ivymallick.com. Reach out to Ivy. She's pretty active on the socials. Reach out through Instagram. And I'll have these links in my show notes. And I would love for you to connect with her, especially if you're a creative entrepreneur and you need somebody on your side. Ivy's the perfect person. And I'm sure, as you've seen in this interview, she'd be a great asset or a great person to be connected with. So thank you very much, Ivy.
Ivy Malik:Thank you so much for having me. You
Speaker 02:are
Paul Povolni:listening to conversations with
Ivy Malik:misfits,
Paul Povolni:mavericks, and trailblazers.
