Ep. 103: Don’t own the owner’s decision with Dr. Amber Parks

Sometimes I feel a bit crazy, all alone shouting from the rooftops about how we can feel SO MUCH BETTER in the veterinary profession when we learn to shift our own perspective. BUT: I’m alone no more!! Meet Dr. Amber Parks, who has been on the same journey as me, and is as honest and straightforward  talking about it as I am.

She surprised me a few times during our conversation with her points of view and I cannot wait to share this with you!

We touch on the often deep resentment and defensiveness that burnout breeds, the impossible mental load of carrying every client's financial decision as your own responsibility, the negativity bias that makes vets remember every bad case and forget every win, and the disconnect between the gold-standard medicine taught in school and the messy, undiagnosed reality of clinical practice. 

We also share opinions about how corporations manage practices, but I can’t write about it here (I might get banned) - you’ll have to have a listen!

Amber is funny and super smart so this conversation won’t bore you - you definitely won't be able to listen on 2x speed.

Dr. Ambers info:

https://www.instagram.com/dr.amberparks/
https://www.thestressandburnoutcoach.com/podcasts/stop-the-burnout-podcast
https://www.thestressandburnoutcoach.com/

Take the Quiz! What Archetype Vet are you right now: https://gunilalifecoach.com/quiz.html

New episodes drop every Tuesday. Make sure you hit the follow button to get notified <3

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The Overwhelmed Vet Podcast 🐾🩺 by Gunila Pedersen

Transcript

EPISODE 103 — TRANSCRIPT
Guest: Dr. Amber Parks
Host: Gunila Pedersen
Podcast: The Overwhelmed Vet / Stop the Burnout (crossover episode)

Gunila Pedersen: Yes, we're on. Well, hello, Amber, nice to meet you for the very first time.

Amber: Finally, yes, yes, so excited to be here. I'm so glad we decided to do this. I think this is good.

Gunila Pedersen: Me too. I felt like, so, just for anybody listening, like, we've just been following each other on Instagram, and just every post you made was, I felt like, this is also me, I always still do this, like, we're so alike, and your sense of humor, and I thought, you know what, like, we need to connect, like, we need to… but I actually don't know anything about it, because you said let's do this as a conversation. I didn't stalk you to try and find out everything like I normally do. It's a fun interview. Right, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: So, do you want to introduce yourself, and just tell, you know, where you're from, what you do, and why you're here, and everything?

Amber: Sure, yeah, I am Dr. Amber Parks. I am a small animal veterinarian turned stress and burnout coach for veterinary professionals. I am in Florida, USA. And I have been… I graduated vet school in 09, so I was an associate for about 10 years, then I went into relief work, which… locum work, which is so funny, because I thought that was a solution to my burnout. And then I liked it for a while, and then it got burnt out again, and then I started to see it in every hospital I went in. I was like, oh my gosh, it's not just me. Like, we're all experiencing something very similar. And then I got kind of bored, and I was like, I need to help others with this, because I think if you go to a hospital every day, and you've never maybe worked in any other hospital or done anything, you know, that's what everything is. You know, you don't know you're on, like, an island. So, I really wanted to show others that, hey, it doesn't have to be awful and toxic and suck all the time. And that's where I'm at now. So yeah, I'm so, so excited. But I didn't… yeah, I didn't stalk you either, so I do want to hear your story as well.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, because you were… okay, so Amber and I were sharing this podcast, so she has… what is your podcast called?

Amber: Stop the Burnout.

Gunila Pedersen: Stop the Burnout. Okay, so we're gonna share it. So, for your listeners, I am Dr. Gunila Pedersen, I am a Danish vet, but I have actually never worked as a vet in Denmark, because as soon as I graduated in Denmark, I moved to Spain to be with my boyfriend, we married, it's a long story, but in Spain, I started up my own practice, because that was the thing you did. And that was in 2008, 2009. I graduated in 2004, small animal veterinarian as well, and that was when… that was a big crash, so the finances were just not great. So, it was me and a business partner, we had, like, no idea about business. So, not only did we dealing with the burnout of being a vet, but it was also the business side of it, which was just, like, borrow a lot of money, and then they will be fine, because we're really good friends. You don't need anything else to have a business, right? That was not quite…

Amber: Bye.

Gunila Pedersen: And actually, my business partner, he just wanted to work with bees in the end, beehives. That's what he does now, so his heart was not in it. But so I ended up then… I got divorced also because of all this burnout, I think it was not great for the marriage, and found a British partner, and he introduced me, he said, why don't you just go and look, I'm in England? I hear they pay a lot over there, which I then did. I started locuming in the UK, and it was horrible in the beginning, because everything was so different from how it was in Spain. They have so many abbreviations, you know, can you do a PTS? And I'm like, what the fuck is a PTS? You know, it's like, I was put to sleep, okay. You know, it was, like, so stressful. And I was still running my clinic at home. I employed a young vet to run that, and I was working week on, week off. And it was just like, in the end, I crashed and burned big time.

Amber: Oh, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: And I actually left, and I was like, I'm never… I'm obviously not cut to be a vet, vet med is horrible, I'm never going back. But I actually didn't know what I wanted to do instead, so I somehow ended up taking some courses, reading some books, like what to do. I read Tim Ferriss' 4-Hour Workweek, and I'm like, working 4 hours a week? After the hell I've…

Amber: Sign me up.

Gunila Pedersen: Sign me up! And somehow I fell over Tony Robbins and coaching. And I got coached, in this program, by people around my marriage, around how I was dealing with my teenage daughters, and it just changed my perspective on everything. It just changed everything. Like, this need to control, this need to control others, the need to… everybody being happy, me controlling that everybody are happy around me, I just… that just got broken by the coaches, and then, I think after a year, I actually started missing being a vet again, and I found that now that I don't have that, like, I need everybody to be happy, I don't need to control what people think about me, I can now set boundaries. All those tools I learned, I then applied them to VetMed, and then I decided then to become a coach as well, and then coach other vets, because I'm like, everybody needs to know this. I felt a bit like a Jehovah's Witness in the beginning, like, see the light! And most people were like, what?

Gunila Pedersen: So, it's a bit of a hill to try and make other people see it, because it's true. I find when you're in it, you are completely convinced that this is crap, it's hard, and it sucks, and we suck, and I'm a bad vet, and I don't know, and this is just, like, you can't tell me anything that's gonna make me feel better, right? So, I feel like that's what we're doing as well, and see what you do on Instagram, is just giving examples, and I felt like this, and then this happened, and then I did this, so people can see, you know, you can be happier, like, you just need to change a few things.

Amber: Yeah, yeah, it's so funny that you say that, because when I was really burnt out, and you're so right, I'm, like, in the thick of it, and you couldn't tell me otherwise. And I was actually in therapy for many years at that point, and it was cathartic in a way that I could, like, express myself, but I felt like I was chasing my tail. Like, we just kind of kept talking about the same things, and anyone that knows me knows I've told the story, but my therapist said, hey, you know, you have to set boundaries. I'm like, yup. She's like, you know, I was working ER. She's like, you can, you know, for lunch, just go leave for an hour. I'm like, wait, what? Huh? I was like, yes, I will set boundaries, but that is one I cannot set. Like, if you go to the ER and the doctor's not in the building because they went to lunch, like, that… and so it was just so obvious to me that there's a disconnect, and I know she meant well, I got a lot out of therapy, but it was, like, yeah, but how do we put this into practice? Because still, for many years, I was just like that. I was miserable. I was like, I don't care what people tell me, this is awful, this client is rude, screw them, you know, that type of attitude, and you get really resentful, and I think that's the part we don't talk about a lot in burnout. Like, I mean, fuck this, fuck that. Like, that was just every day, you know? So, I'm curious if you kind of felt that, too.

Gunila Pedersen: I felt that, and I've actually just made, like, a quiz for vets to try and assess their burnout, and I divided into, like, what archetype are you? And then I had to correct, like, what are you right now? And it's, like, the worried vet, you know, that I haven't done anything well enough, I'm not good enough, and what if something happens? And then there's the bored vet, which I think is almost like the end of the burnout, we just don't care anymore. And then the defensive vet, which is also… which is a resentful one, is like, are you gonna, like, don't tell me what to do. Like, you're just defensive and resentful, and I went through all the faces, right? And now I'm the fourth one, which is the fulfilled vet. Now I enjoy it, but I do think there's faces, and I definitely… I was resentful towards, like, if anybody would complain about the price, especially me being a business owner, even now, I get defensive if somebody complains, because I'm like, have you got an idea how much this costs to run? And I just had a huge debate, so in Denmark, I mean, like, Facebook groups with vets there, and I live there part-time, and the equivalent of… it's the Animal Protection Society, I guess, that normally work with the vets as well, and they just promoted another article out there about how vet costs have gone up, and I just went on such a random… I emailed the director, and I wrote on Facebook, and I'm like, literally, we just bought an ultrasound scan at my hospital. It was 432,000 kronos, or 50,000 pounds.

Amber: Wow.

Gunila Pedersen: Like, it's super good, and I have always been really bad at scanning. And now I can actually see things. I diagnosed an intussusception the other day, and I was so happy. And, you know, like, this saved this guy, but who's gonna pay for that? Like, that is not gonna come free, lady, you know. So definitely, yeah, like you say, resentful and defensive, feeling defensive if the clients come at you with something, no?

Amber: Yeah, and that's so… that's a huge one, right? In our profession, is the money thing, and I used to feel that way, too. I mean, I still do, but now I'm like, if a client is gonna say something, I'm so, like, it's a different stance of… I pick, like, in your case, like, you're picking the right platform, you know, and the right people to say this to, but if a client's sitting in the room complaining, I'm like, am I gonna tell them what I think and why things are expensive? That's one thing, but am I gonna do it and hope that they agree with me? That's, like, a whole different vibe. And when I started to realize that, then I'm like, whatever, we're expensive, so isn't the place down the street, the one that's 5 towns over. You know, I'm like, it's… some people don't want to be educated, too, and I think that's, like… I found that out. I'm like, wow, no one ever told me this in school. That would have been really helpful to know, right? Because we think that we're doing the job wrong if we can't convince a client, and I say convince, because that's sometimes what it feels like, but educate a client to do a certain thing because it's the best thing for their pet, but it comes off like we're trying to convince them, and then when they say no, we feel like we failed. And it's like, it's wrong on every aspect of that, which I think is huge when it comes to money.

Gunila Pedersen: That is huge, and I feel there's such a big responsibility in it. I remember I was coaching a client as well from Norway, where they just had… I think they have a Facebook page there with 25,000 members of people that just go in and agree on how expensive and how money-greedy vets are, so they're really traumatized by it, and she… I would tend to do an estimate under what she actually wanted to do. Like, you know, it's gonna cost you, say, I don't know, $5,000, for example, and she would try and take things off so it wouldn't be so much to make them say yes, because you really wanted to help the pet, but it's all, like, that psychological battle inside your head, like, trying to anticipate how much money are they gonna have so I don't go over that, so they don't want to do anything, and now I have to euthanize this cat with a broken pelvis I don't want to euthanize, you know, it's… such a big weight. And what I do now is, you know, I said, well, the ideal scenario is so much, but you know what? If you just want an amputation, if you want to… and we can also see how that goes… so give them the options, and then it's gone, it's not my responsibility anymore, where before, if they were like, no, euthanize it, I'd be like, oh my god, I didn't do my job right, exactly what you say, yeah.

Amber: Yeah, and I think, too, like, we get a lot from school of, like, well, this is the gold standard, and so if you didn't convince, quote-unquote, the client to do that, then, yeah, you're not good at your job. And, but to that point, like that example you gave of that person, I've done that before, and I've gotten burned before, too. I think it was many years ago, it was, like, a blocked cat. And she didn't have money for the whole thing, so, you know, we sedated, we unblocked them, and as they do, and I said, you know, he might get blocked again, and he did.

Amber: And so, it was… but she was irate. But then I'm looking at it, you know, now from a different angle of, like, well, there's a lot of psychology that goes on, that the more you do this job, you start to predict what someone is going to potentially respond with, and why that is. Like, I think yeah, she's upset, right? She doesn't have her cat, it's the whole situation, but really what it was, was there's probably some shame in there of, like, she couldn't afford this for her pet, and so… but I didn't know enough of that. So, in the moment, I'm like, well, screw you, because I'm trying to help you. You know, I helped you out, and now we're in pretty much the same situation, which I already warned you is possible, and now I'm the bad guy. And so if we don't learn that process, and I'm with you, I'm like, here's your information, and when I do that, I don't have to own their decision. That is, like, the huge piece.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah! Oh, I love that, by the way you say that. I don't have to own that decision. Yeah, to me, so I've always said, like, yeah, I'm not responsible for what they say, but it's like, owning it, yeah, because that's what it feels like, and if you have, like, I don't know, people have, like, crazy amount of consults nowadays, like, I only do, yeah, as well, so during a day, say, you have maybe, like, 20, 40 consults, and 25% of them don't go with what you wanted to do, and now you think the animal's gonna suffer, and if you take that responsibility on yourself, like, now all these animals are suffering, like, 10 a day, you know, every day. This is on me, you know, it's crazy.

Amber: Well, yeah, because we forget the good ones, right? That's just how our brain is wired. So, the bad ones, like, I'm sure we all have stories, like, we can remember those bad cases and maybe bad clients, like, from years ago, but the good things that just happened, you know, they go right in one ear and out the other, and we just… we don't remember that. So then there's that negativity bias, and then we're just living our life through that lens, so it does really feel like it's a shitshow, you know?

Gunila Pedersen: And everybody hates me, and no clients are ever happy. Yeah, it's so true, isn't it?

Amber: Right? And, like, I'm bad at my job, and then you just get into that, like, inner self-talk that is just not super helpful, and whatever you tell your mind, it'll believe, and yeah, it's really easy to get there. Really easy, I think, for a lot of people.

Gunila Pedersen: I feel as well… I was really angry that once I learned all this, like, why don't we learn this in school? Why do vet school not prepare us for anything? I swear to God, the only thing… I, like, I had one lecture, and it was some lady from a company that came out and gave us pizza, and the only thing I remember, she said, like, x-ray the dog, not the client's wallet. Like, don't try to guess what they earn, and then, you know, like… and that's all I remember, that's all I ever learned, mentally and emotionally, you know, to go out there.

Amber: That was worth it, though, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: I'm like, that was really helpful, okay?

Amber: Do we need more of that.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, we need a lot of that, yeah.

Amber: Yeah, cause I think that's so complex, the type of profession we're in, and I was just talking with a coaching client with this actually yesterday, and I said, the problem with vet med is that we are so client service focused. But we're healthcare, and it's practice, so we know that's not going to be 100%. And we're human, so it's not gonna be 100%, but we're working in, like, the business model and the approach and the mindset that we're like a restaurant or a hotel, and, like, we should be able to provide this perfect care 100% of the time, and never have anything mess up. And it's, like, so unrealistic. And I get the business side, like, that's okay, like, you know, we can have businesses and we should make money, but when I'm hearing stories of either veterinarians or technicians, and they're dealing with really disrespectful clients, like, really disrespectful, borderline abusive, and everyone's just like, oh no, that's just how they are, and then you have to go see them again. And I'm like, well, Jesus, no wonder why we feel like crap, you know, in this profession, and we're trying so hard to meet that standard that we're always moving the goalpost for it, too.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, I feel like maybe in the States, there's a bit more of that. I don't feel like… maybe because I'm in the UK and they're also, like, polite, but I do have difficult clients as well, but I don't feel it's as much, because I do follow, like, some vets and techs on social media, and they talk about clients, but I definitely am at a point now, because now I feel so confident in myself, and I feel if you sit there, and you have that little doubt, there's that little nagging thought, like, I'm not really good enough, and if another vet were here, they would handle it better, they would know more, they would… you know when you come in with a half-assed plan, because you don't really know what's going on with it? It's got, like, hyperkalemia and a hypo something, and the whole thing is just not right, and you're like… I mean, you could try and do some bloods, but you don't really… you're kind of fishing in the dark, right?

Gunila Pedersen: Because you don't have that confidence, the client is like, now they can… they're like, like, exactly like in a restaurant, well, this lobster is not cooked or whatever, you know, and you feel bad because maybe I'm not good enough, and you don't stand up for yourself, and you let them just, like, abuse you, you know? And I feel like now, even if I don't have a proper plan, like, but it's not a… I learned that the pets have not read the textbook, right? So often, it is just mysterious cases, and what really helped me, you know, was for a year and a half, I worked in a referral center, and the case that changed me was a big fat Labrador we got in, in an emergency, and it was just really painful, and all… I could not… could I find out what was painful? I was like, abdomen? Spine? I don't know. So, you know, did some normal tests and gave it pain relief, and then I was like, we'll refer you tomorrow to neurology or whoever else can deal with this, no? The dog was in for 5 days, and they spent £12,000. And then it just stood up one day and walked out, and they never found out why it was painful. So then I'm like, okay, expectations can be lowered a bit. It's okay if I don't solve all this in, like, 20 minutes, you know?

Amber: Right, right. Well, yeah, it's bridging that gap, too, of, like, we have all the tests and diagnostics that we think we should have, but yeah, they don't always read the book, and I know I've had cases that I still don't have answers, like in that case, you know? And you're like, I don't know, but here we are. Like, what does the owner want? The owner, they just want their pet to feel better, you know? And sometimes I think the way that that gets perceived to us as veterinary professionals is, like, oh my gosh, like, you don't know your job, you should do this, you know, and it's like… not to let them off the hook, but there is a lot of that… you know, the thought that, hey, you know, I'm scared, I'm maybe shameful that I didn't bring my pet in sooner, and now maybe I don't have the finances, but I'm gonna… you're in front of me, and you don't really have the best plan, and I'm not buying it, then I'm gonna jump down your throat. And, you know, and that's exactly a lot of what I've seen, not all the time, but yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, definitely when they've had guilt, and they have shame, and they have frustration, they want it to be better, but I think that's where the communication is key, right? Because I have not… I might have one a year that does that now, and I think because more than them wanting the pet to be better, which is obviously what they want, but also they want someone on their side, so I feel like even if we can sit in a little boat together and row together, even if it's, like, not very great because they have no money and the animals brought in way too late, but we're kind of like… I'm with you, right? Let's see what we can do. Like, I really include them, and I make them feel heard, and I make them feel seen, and understood, even if sometimes a bit, like, why did you do that? But okay, yeah, I'm here, I'm here for it, right? Because this is what we've got now, accepting that and making them feel accepted. I feel like then, even if the pet doesn't get better, but if they can, they can ask me, like, well, I can say, do you want me to give it some pain relief? I can do this, we can do that, you know, like, then they don't expect like, perfection, because they understand that we're working together, but it's a process, it's not clear-cut, and medicine never is, like, my brother, my mom, my two girls have all had situations where the doctors were like, well, we don't know, you know.

Amber: Yeah.

Amber: And it's so hard, too, because, like, in that case, I think that when people do feel heard and seen, and you're more human, but you're exactly right. If there's, like, that little, like, tiny, tiny creak of a door of, like, oh, I'm opening this door of, like, I don't really feel comfortable, then you're in front of them, and that's what you're gonna feel. But I do think… I've always told, like, my technicians, when I worked ER, you know, they're like, oh man, this lady's a little crazy. I'm like, I can handle crazy, I can handle no money. I was, like, being rude, even to my support staff before you get to me, like, then we're gonna have a problem, but that doesn't bother me so much, but that's a lot of, like… we almost have, like, the trauma, too, from when I was a younger vet, of, like, I thought I was supposed to be perfect and know everything, and I know I didn't give that type of persona, and it was like, yes, this is not gonna go well, and then I got someone jumped down my throat, essentially. So… and I think a lot of people kind of experience something somewhere, it doesn't even have to be a lot, and then we have those memories, and then we're going into practice, and we're already, like, feeling like we have to be on edge or be defensive, and so it just kind of adds to it, you know, and spiraling, for sure.

Gunila Pedersen: It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Like, I think you're gonna be a nasty bugger, so I'm just gonna be defensive and not be vulnerable and not show I'm human. I know it sounds like a very cliche, show you're human, but it's true, isn't it? Oh my god, I'm so sorry, this is happening to you. I don't understand why… like, I've done that, like, you get the history, and while I get the history, I get, like, this doesn't make sense. And I touch the animal, I'm like, this doesn't make sense. And then I'm like, I don't know what's going on, but he's painful, let's give him some pain relief, and let's try and sort out. I don't understand why this is… I literally tell them, I don't know what's going on. But let's make sure he's not, let's just give him some methadone and then figure it out, no? I don't have that certainty, but if you can't show that… I have to give them something. That creates tension, no? I was… I definitely feel like that inner… it's the inner tension, no? It's frustration, it's fear, it's their past, whatever is coming up for them, you know? And then that tension, they want to release it somewhere, and if they can see that you are also tense, it's just like this fire building up, isn't it?

Amber: Yeah, and I think, too, a lot of what can contribute to that as well, is that we do have a disconnect between what we think we're supposed to be doing, like, especially out of school. Like, you think that if you came out of school and you said that your first year to a practice, like, I don't really know what's going on. Like, we're like, what? Like, you would never say that, you know? It's having that disconnect, and you're like, I can't say that. So, being human, yeah, 100%. That takes you really far.

Gunila Pedersen: That is so true, and I think… don't you think as well that our first year out kind of shapes us a bit? Like, I coached a vet the other day, 8 years in, and she's so on her way out now, there's no stopping that, but we just had a chat, and she said, oh yeah, because the first 6 months, I worked in a place, the manager was really new, we were all new vets, and we were told we could not make any mistakes ever, like, no mistakes. If we made a mistake, we're not allowed to do that procedure again. And I was like, okay, girl, no wonder you burned out. And she said to me, and it was funny, because she couldn't even see it now, because she's still in burnout. No, but that's because it was good, because it really made our level, you know, high, and then I keep that level, and you're as perfect as possible. I'm like, yeah, but you only lasted 8 years, girls! It's like, what's that worth, anything, you know? You got good about 40 years, right?

Amber: Oh my gosh, that is… it is… I totally agree. I, when I was an associate, before I went in to do locum work, I actually told my boss, I was like, I'm leaving, I'm burnt out, and he was… he's a great guy. We still have a good relationship, and he was like, well, hold on, like, don't leave. I have this other opportunity, and he had these other practices, so he's like, can you come on board and help me mentor the other doctors? Like, obviously more at that point was, like, clinical consulting. I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And I noticed that exactly. I'm like, every doctor, and it didn't matter if they were 2 years out or they were 20 years out, if they had, like, a really challenging beginning out of vet school, that just set the precedence for a lot of their career, because I saw ones that had been out for 15 years that weren't very comfortable. And ones that were out 2 years, and it wasn't that confidence, like, the arrogance, it was like, okay, they're just, like… So I can't imagine if I heard something like that my first year out of school, like, you can't make a mistake. Like, that already gives me palpitations, just hearing that.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, it's so much damage, isn't it? And we're too young and gullible and innocent at that point, we don't really know, we just come out, and I think like, in med school, it's like, they show you, like, the PowerPoint, whatever, and you have this case, and then you do these tests, and there's, like, a flowchart, isn't there? And you just follow the flowchart, and then you get to this happy ending, you just need to do the right test, so when we then go and we do the test, and nothing matches up, and you're like, what the hell is going on here? We think we've done something wrong, right? And if we don't get the right support right at that time, I think that gets really scary very, very quickly, you know, we feel like we're doing something wrong all the time then.

Amber: Yeah, I was not prepared out of school for, like, the occasional vomiting, no weight loss, middle-aged dog, blood work labs normal. I'm like, what? Like, you know, like, it's just… and the pet's stable, you know. Just the nondescript, like you said, never end up getting a diagnosis. We just… and so it's almost like a lot of us, we're so focused on getting to the end result, like undergrad, and then vet school, like, we're getting there, right? So we know that we're gonna get there, and we just work really, really hard, and then we get to the end, and we're like, well, okay, now what? It's the same thing with diagnostics. Like, we get to the end, but if we don't really get a diagnosis, we think we didn't get to the end, we didn't finish it, we didn't do it right. That can be really frustrating, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: Especially when we feel we should be able to give the owners an answer, like, we need to be able to give the owners an answer, and then we don't… you know, you have to call them with the results, and I was coaching a vet the other day, and she had some traumatic start to her life as well, and as a vet, and she was now in a new clinic, and everybody would just offer blood tests there, and all the clients always say yes, and she's so traumatized about it, because she's like, I offer blood, but if I don't know exactly what I'm gonna do with the results, then it comes back, you know, when the ALT is high or something, and you're like, oh my god, what do I do with this now? And you can't say, because this is high because of that, and this is low because of that, and this is what we're gonna do. You just have… I mean, some of the results are not quite right, but I don't really know why, and I don't really know why I took the blood in the first place, but here we are. So she's really struggling with that, no?

Amber: Yeah, that's funny. I had a case like this, which is seared into my brain, and it was an older cat. It was, like, 14 or 15. We did annual bloods, and it was just there for its wellness. It was pretty healthy otherwise, and its ALT was really, really high. Nothing else in the labs were abnormal, and there was no clinical signs at home. And I was like, you know, I said to the owner, like, this could be a million different reasons, you know, we had ultrasound in the clinic, I was like, we should just take a look, because I'm thinking in my head, and now I tell my coaching clients this, like, what would you do with your pet? You know, like, we're probably all… we know when to jump, right? We know when to, like… we've seen all the stuff go sideways, and we know when it's bad. And you know, I was like, I mean, I would do an ultrasound of my cat, because I don't know, you know, let's just gain more information. Now, I would have said it differently, but we did the ultrasound, didn't see anything. I think I took aspirates of the liver, I can't even remember, but long story short, the cat was fine. And the owner was so mad, so mad. He ended up, and he was very misogynistic and condescending, like, all the things that just make it 10 times worse.

Gunila Pedersen: God.

Amber: Yeah, and he's like, well, at first he was, like, kind of on my side. He's like, well, maybe the lab messed up. So we called the lab, and I'm like, now I wouldn't have done any of this, but my boss was very, like, well, let's just gain more information, which I get that approach, but it went way too far, and we're like, asking for the quality control log at the lab, and I'm like, okay. So then when it was like, well, that was okay, he's like, well, then it must be you. Like, why would you recommend this test? Yeah. And he got so mad, he ended up going to… here in the US, we have the Better Business Bureau, so it's like a… for any business, they give you, like, a rating if you are signed up with them. So most, you know, you want, like, an A-plus rating. And he lodged a complaint, and was like, they're not, you know, doing… he just felt like he got… spent money that he didn't need to spend. And I'm like, well, sometimes we do tests, and they're normal, imagine that. But anyway… but I'm, like, thinking to myself, you know, for this case, if I didn't recommend that, his cat would have had something really bad, and then I would have been screwed, right? Like, that's just how it is. And so, long story short, I had to get on the phone with the Better Business Bureau person. He was, like, a mediator between me and him. Now I would have just hung up the phone, walked away, and not thought twice about it. But I'm like, there we go again. That's, like, a customer service thing. Like, the Better Business Bureau is for, like, restaurants, and, like, a car mechanic, you know what I mean? Like, veterinary medicine is so nuanced, but that is seared into my brain, and I think about it every time I see an ALT on an older cat, but it's things like that that you're like, well, maybe I shouldn't have done that. I'm like, nope, you can't make that decision with the information you have after the fact. That's where we get ourselves stuck, too.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, the hindsight, oh my god, so often. Yeah. So often. But I think, like, now, with the experience, I think when we're younger as well, we really want to say the right thing, but I think with my experience now, like, what I would probably say is, like, this is high, it could be something, it couldn't be, and could be nothing. My hunch is, it's probably nothing. If you want to be absolutely sure, we can do more tests, like, and then they say, what would you do with your cat? I'd be like, I'd probably not do anything, but, you know, it could be a tumor, I don't know, like, you're just completely honest, you just put all the cards on the table. And you let them choose, right? That's what we do.

Amber: Right, and I think that's what it is, too, is that we feel like we have to be the ones to put all the cards on the table, but then pick the right one and recommend that right one, and that… I'm like, no, like I said before, like, we don't have to own that, and you know, the other thing, too, I'm curious to get your thoughts, is kind of switching a little bit, but the things that I've heard lately from my coaching clients are to do with the team and or management, and not… I've had amazing support staff and technicians. I've been very, very lucky, and management, but some of the things that I'm hearing, I'm like, oh gosh, now add in, you know, a client that is not being super nice, or a stressful case, and now you've got management telling you these crazy things of what they think should go on, and I'm like, oh my gosh, we're just running into the ground. So, I'm curious, like, what your take is on what that has looked like for you in VetMed, especially being over there on the other side of the pond.

Gunila Pedersen: I was really lucky, my first job, it was a small private clinic, and the owners were just really, really nice. So I had support in the beginning, which I think has helped me a lot of the way that… and also made me, after all the horribleness, and I left, and I came back, it made me also come back, because I had that picture of it can be really nice, and just exciting, and fun as well. But I have run into bad management, and I think corporate are worse, because I see the practice manager… you have the… so here in the UK, you'll have a practice manager who's the person kind of in charge… I guess… you know how they're like, okay, you sit behind a desk and do something on your computer, but I don't really see anything happening. But they're often brought in, like, from literally, like, leaving a supermarket. Like, a lot of them are coming straight… are you kidding? I love it.

Amber: Yeah, that's my cat. He's… I literally can't do any Zoom calls without him on my lap, so we'll…

Gunila Pedersen: Oh my god.

Amber: Yeah, he's…

Gunila Pedersen: That's it. This is a proper vet podcast now.

Amber: Yeah, right, right.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, so we have a clinical manager who can be either maybe a nurse, or more often than not, it's someone brought in from customer service at some completely different thing. And then you have a clinical director who is basically the vet that's most senior, but often none of them have any leadership training in anything. And often, the clinical director has got a really good brain, like, really good medical brain, but they often don't have very good people skills. And it's just a shitshow, and you don't feel supported, and it's a lot of, like, how much money you have to make, and, you know, and it's not very… and it's a bit like you talked about having a therapist, which I have found my vet coaching clients say as well, like, the therapists just don't get it, you know, you have to, like, stop in the middle, you're pouring your heart out, and they're like, but what's a GDV, you know?

Amber: Right.

Gunila Pedersen: They're like, you got… exactly, but I feel when management have no experience of being vets as well, like, it's very difficult to… I don't think it's a little difficult to manage a veterinary clinic just from a point of view of being from customer service and not understanding all the nuances and all the… it's not that easy to get a diagnosis, and I can't just… You know, there's so many little things, isn't there? It's also like, when you charge, do you charge a full ultrasound scan? Do you charge the usage of the ultrasound? Do you charge a free fluid check? And it's very nuanced. It's not that easy, is it? Because if the owner cannot afford anything, but they can afford £80 for an ultrasound usage, I will do that, and I will charge that, even if I do a whole abdomen scan, because I want to save the pet, you know. And what I say to the young vets I come across in my practice is, like, you have to be able to sleep at night, and I'd rather have you be told off by management than you not being able to sleep because you don't feel you did the right thing. I feel as vets, we do need to, and coming back to your restaurant kind of perspective, our care does come first, and I'd rather have my management going, you need to make money, or you shouldn't have done that, and my approach is like, you're so right, I'll do better next time, and smile. And then I'll just do what I want anyway, you know, like…

Amber: Yeah, yeah, because I always say that to my clients, I'm like, if you… and it seems really simple, but we don't always do it, or we get caught up of, like, what is best for the pet? Because I think if we always do that, either we do it in an emergency and we didn't have authorization, but the owner, like, we did CPR, say, like, you're never gonna regret doing that. You would regret being like, well, the owner doesn't have money, or I'm not really sure, so I'm gonna wait, you know what I mean? If we do what's best, the owner can be upset, management can be upset, it doesn't matter, like, would you want that to have happened for your pet? And, you know what I mean? Like, it's very simple, but that is, like, a compass, if you will, of how to look at situations like that, 100%.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah.

Amber: That's so funny, with the management, thankfully, I have had some that were just phenomenal, and then you compare everyone to them, but yes, I have seen a lot where with my coaching clients, too, they're, like, telling me about the manager, and the manager has no clue about the profession, they don't know… they sit in an office, and I'm like, that's, like, in my experience, the ones that did really well, they were hands-on, you know, they were helping, they were guiding, they're making sure the workflow is good, they're doing their ordering and their reports, but they're not, like, oblivious to the, you know, train wreck that's going on, maybe, in the hospital. And I agree. I think there definitely are some medical directors. I have a coaching client right now who's one, who's phenomenal. But I have another client who works with a medical director who isn't that great, and the people skills aren't there, the leadership… and now she's starting to see that and be like, oh, you know, whatever, I'm just gonna do my own thing. But we don't set them up for… I think, especially in the corporate level, it's like, oh, we've got an opening here for a medical director, do you want to do it? Alright, we'll hop in here, you know? And there's, like, there's no… what are the expectations? What is the job description? We have no idea. Like, you couldn't set someone up for a worse possibility of failing at something by getting it any more wrong than that, you know? And so we do see it, for sure.

Gunila Pedersen: It's terrible, isn't it? Because it's a shame for the team that's underneath them, that are just running around like headless chicken, and everybody are getting really stressed, and nobody really knows what's going on. And then, obviously, the person… so I cannot feel sorry for someone who's come in from the supermarket and sitting up there earning a ton of money, I'm sorry. But the clinical director, who is a vet trying to lead and has not been taught the skills, and that is just kind of thrown in, I feel very sorry for them, because it's not nice trying to lead when you don't really know. And if they have not had any… if they have no metacognition, right, if they have no idea of their own boundaries, if they have no idea of… you know, this is how you give feedback, this is how you take feedback, and all these things. Like, they have a terrible time, right? And if they've never learned, actually, it doesn't matter if you don't know anything, you can still feel confident. You can confidently say, I'm not quite sure about this, but what do you think? You know, like, then it's terrible. No, they are in the line of fire all the time.

Amber: Yeah, and that's definitely what I have seen, and you know, I've talked to people, and they're like, well, I'm gonna, you know, they want to hire me for medical director, and they want to give me this extra amount of money, and I'm like, okay, what's the job description? And they're like, well, I don't know. And I've yet to find someone that has actually gotten a printed piece of paper with a job description, and it sounds really formal and just, like, kind of silly, but I'm like, you're being paid extra, which, okay, sure, we would all like that, but it may not be worth it, because a lot of times, I think what happens is, just like you said, things go awry, and then whoever's above them is like, well, this didn't go well, or you should be making a different amount of money, or you should handle it, and it's like, well, how was I supposed to know? Oh, you're only gonna know when you mess up, we'll be sure to tell you, but we won't train you for the position, you know?

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, that's so true!

Amber: It's awful, and I see it over and over again, and what I don't get on the corporate side is, like, you realize if you just put a little bit of time into these people, then they would more likely stay. You know, yes, there's a lot of other things that need updating, but you are setting them up for failure, and you're gonna run out of people and the turnover to replace them, you know? Like, is that really worth it? No, I don't get the thought process with that.

Gunila Pedersen: I don't get how corporate works at all, like, from my experience and the people I've coached as well, it just doesn't make sense what they're doing. It's like the decision-making is just right at the top, and it's like, what makes money, what doesn't, but you have to think long-term. Like, the turnover of your vets, I'm like, no, you need to help your vets. And then, next thing, you get, like, some sort of email, oh, it's Wellness Month, don't forget to make yourself a cup of tea, and I'm like, that's not helpful! Let's all run out and pick flowers and see if you can make the biggest bouquet. I'm like, no, this is not helpful.

Amber: That is my biggest pet peeve, like, oh, let's all go have a bubble bath and go for a walk. We've cured burnout. And I'm like… oh, okay, so we're checking a box, is what we're doing, and I'm with you, like, this isn't… fine, if you want to look at the money aspect, it is gonna be beneficial in the long term. And even now, you know, if you put a little bit of time and structure into these people and set them up for success, like. It's just yeah, it's just… it's becoming the norm, right? And having a well-trained and up-to-speed support staff and management and medical directors is, like, a one-off. Like, we don't find that. That's the minority. It's sad.

Gunila Pedersen: It is sad, yeah. I feel there's a lot of empty promises as well, isn't it? The new grads come out, and they're promised, you know, we're gonna help you with this, we're gonna help you with that, and next thing they know, like, suddenly they're doing, like, 20 consults, and they don't really… like, sometimes I find the new vets, you know, sitting an hour and a half, like, they're still writing notes, and I'm, like, kicking them out of the building. I'm like, no, no, you need to stop, you know, and teaching them how to set boundaries on the go, because you can't… because you can't do this, no, and somebody's like, oh, my partner just called to see if I'm on my way, I'm just gonna tell them whatever, and I'm like, no, your partner calls you because they know you need to go, you can't stay, you know.

Gunila Pedersen: And not having procedures, not having… because I'm the night vet, like, I don't really, like, I have no say in anything, but you need your managers to keep an eye on that. You need them to be, oh, I'm noticing this new grad is spending a lot of time, they're not really taking their lunch, and they're not… and be on top of it, right? And that's why I don't see that they're not catching up in time, they're not catching it, and correcting. Now, it's just like, suddenly everything is burning, they're like, what?

Amber: Right. Well, yeah, it's the same thing, too, right? Because, like, the medical director position, I think that happens with the mentorship. Like, yeah, come on board, we'll mentor you, whereas the person that thinks that they're gonna be doing the mentoring are like, oh, I'm just gonna answer some questions in between appointments. I'm like, that's not feasible for anyone, and no one wants, like… the practice that I was at, was a solo doctor, and then I came on board. So, thankfully, and it wasn't corporate, it was a lot easier, but there were many times I waited outside an exam room, like, I just have to ask you a really quick question, you know? And it's stressful to begin with, and then add that on top of it, but that is a lot of, I think, what is happening to those new vets, is that, yes, we'll do all these things, and then you get here, and like anything else, right? Sink or swim, just jump in, you'll learn it, it'll be fine, you know, and it's a recipe for disaster.

Gunila Pedersen: They just live in a state of terror the first year, I think, because if you have a slight, you know, empathy, and you really want to do well, then you're terrified. I remember my first year, and they were nice to me, but I was still, like, I would literally read, you know, the little papers where the boosters come, I would read them, make sure I'm doing the right thing, right? Like, what if I give them the wrong boosters, and I just have an anaphylactic reaction and they die. All the little things, they're just scary, aren't they? Because you feel so responsible. So, it's not fair, really.

Amber: No, and you know, too, I think what's hard about that is then being a new grad, you're coming out now maybe those support staff, they just got thrown into the mix, and so they don't really know either, right? And that's what I hear a lot of times. You know, like I said, I've had some amazing support staff that I've worked with. I've worked with some that weren't that great, either. And so I know I can't always lean on certain people, but when you're fresh out, you're like, someone help me, and can I trust you? Or I don't know, you know? So it can be really… it's a different dynamic, because it's not just, I'm not getting the mentorship, it's like, I don't feel supported by anyone here, and you know, the second you try and do something on your own, and it doesn't go well, you're immediately like, nope, not doing that again. I'll just, you know, wait it out, or whatever. And it's really bad, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: It is really bad, and then you always have that feeling, if just someone else were here, they would do it better than me, and I think that becomes a thought pattern then, so then, even when you're 15 years out, you still have that little feeling, and you're not the real adult in the room. There'll be someone else that can do it better than you, because that's just kind of how you're wired now, right?

Amber: Yeah, yeah, that's very true, and that's where… or you had a case, it didn't go well, you always remember that case, and then you see something similar, and you're like, ugh, immediately, you're like, I know what this is, this isn't gonna go well, that last… you know?

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amber: You know?

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think a lot of us have real PTSD from some cases, yeah. Where, you know, you did… maybe you did something wrong, or maybe you didn't, but the animal just died anyway, or whatever, and then you had an irate owner, like, because that's, like, that aggressiveness, even if they're not being physically aggressive, but having somebody shouting at you, I think especially for women, there are a lot of women in this profession, and for us, we know, like, somebody being, like, in our face, that can give us a lot, and then on top of that, you feel bad, because something bad happened to that pet, no? And I think that's… if we don't have anybody really to talk to about it, or… yeah, people outside the profession could never understand that, I think.

Amber: Yeah, well, and I think a lot of it… I'm just thinking back to those cases that I've had of being like that, you know? Being a woman, it's like an overnight, and immediately the first thing is, like, I'm worried about my safety, but that goes by the wayside. I'm now like, who's gonna yell at me? Because I'm gonna be in trouble for something like this? Like, is management gonna be upset? They're gonna be mad that a client is upset that I made that, you know, like, all these crazy thoughts. And it is really, really tough to even bring yourself down and, like, finish out your shift from that, because you're like, I don't… I don't know. So, yeah, that's, like, we don't talk about that, and that can be very… you only need one of those cases to ever have that feeling again, and it's not good. It doesn't feel great.

Gunila Pedersen: It doesn't feel great, and I do feel we need more support around that. I spoke to one of my friends, she's a NICU nurse, so she works for, like, the neonates that come out, like, really tiny in week 20-something in Liverpool, and whenever something bad happens with them, and obviously they're babies, they're not animals, but for the owners, like, some of the owners do react like you killed that baby. And when something happens, they have, like, a whole meeting where everybody go, like, this is what happened, this is what we could do better, and then they have individual meetings with a therapist to talk through everything and how they handle it and everything, you know, just to offload, and I thought we could really… Not always, but some cases, I feel like we're just left to sail or sink with everything that's happened. You go home with that, and maybe you go home to your family, your partner, and they don't… they can't understand, because they… if you're not in it, you don't understand it.

Amber: Yeah, and then, you know, a lot of times they're like, well, it'll be okay, and you're like, you realize in the moment, like, I know… now I know. Like, that is coming from a supportive place, but you just don't know, but now I'm mad. Screw you, you don't know, it won't be okay, my life, I'm gonna get, you know, fired, I'm gonna lose my license, I'm gonna… it's all the things. And so that just, like, okay, well, I can't reach out that way and get some sort of validation, so then we just go inward. And it just festers. And so, yeah, that… I mean, you think about a case like that, or a situation like that, we can all… at the very least, we should learn something from that, right? Even if a pet didn't make it, then we all will benefit from knowing that for the next time. So if something not great happens, we should at least have some sort of good come out of it.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, yeah, so everybody can learn, and you feel like, obviously feel… you feel crap for a couple of days, but it shouldn't be there in, like, you take it into your body, don't you? It's almost like now it's there with me forever, this shame and guilt, and, you know… what happened, and then not processing that.

Amber: Yeah.

Amber: I think we're really good at not processing.

Gunila Pedersen: We're not processing anything. I think, don't you find with your clients, the thing… and I'm like, but how did that feel? And then they keep talking about what happened. I'm like, okay, so how did you… but how did you feel after that? And they just keep talking. I'm like, no, no, no, like, here, in your body, like, how did I feel? Like, so then I thought that, and then they said, I'm like, no, stop, wait, like, we don't.

Amber: I don't think I would feel…

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, we're so good at just pushing it away and just keep working.

Amber: And that's where I think two things happen. One is that we end up, like, okay, well, I can still keep going, so I should be okay. And then the other is that, yes, we never deal with it, and that, I mean, we know that manifests into, like, actual disease processes, in humans, and I'm sure animals. And it's funny, because my clients, I had one the other day, and she said… we were talking about things, and she's like, yeah, and she's always, like, I'm trying to show her that it doesn't have to be this way. And she's like, yeah, but… and she's, like, defending, and I'm like, girl, I'm on your team, I'm not upset at you, but, like, give yourself permission for it to not be okay, you know? And I think that's… that was really her biggest piece, was, like, well, yeah, but it wasn't that bad, and I'm like… but it is, because we're bringing it up and we're talking about it. So, you know, we're always trying to, like, just sweep it under the rug and keep on going, because that's, I think, how we got as far as we have in our profession, too.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, that is true, yeah. If you were not feeling well for an exam or something, you'd just turn up anyway, you know, you just had to, like, even just to get through vet school, you just had to. If you didn't feel well, you just kept going, kept going, kept going, kept going, and I think that's just, like, the pattern we keep doing, isn't it?

Amber: Yeah, and that's why I always say, I'm like, the coping mechanisms, I'll use that in quotes, because I don't think they were really great, but the coping mechanisms that got us to where we are are not going to be the same ones that sustain us when we're in practice, because of that. We can't just keep going. It goes downhill, and there's an endpoint, so we have to find what that happy medium is.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah. I feel like… if we… it's almost an hour now, I can't believe, like, it's so interesting. I could probably sit here, so for me, it's like nighttime. I could sit here all night and just keep talking, right?

Amber: I know!

Gunila Pedersen: One, but, for me, I think the biggest work to try and get vets to feel better, is to make them see that you can work on yourself, but it just sounds like… how do you put that across? It doesn't sound like you will now have to sit down and have therapy for two years, and then maybe you'll feel a bit better. Like, what would be, like, how do you… what would you put across for listeners, for both of our audiences, who follow us. What is… what can you do to feel better without having to leave vet med and without feeling like now you have to, like, rewire your whole belief system and, I don't know, sit on an island for a year or something?

Amber: I think one thing that really got me was… What my experience is isn't necessarily reality. And we see that all the time, right? Like, I've worked with veterinarians that were just laid back, and they're great, and they're phenomenal vets, and I'm like, do you just wake up, like, with a skip in your step, and you just, like, get on your way to work? What? And then I'm there, like a ball of stress, you know, like, looking up everything, ripping my hair out, sweating, and we're experiencing the same day. And so, it's my reality, and it's their reality, but it's different. And so when I realized, like, oh, okay, it doesn't… what I'm experiencing, like, I'm subscribing to that, but there might be a different way. And it doesn't mean, though, here's the biggest piece that I find, it doesn't mean that we let everyone slide, right? We let people be disrespectful, whatever. I think that's what a lot of that is. We think we're supposed to be just chill and professional and let it go. Like, no, it's just, we're looking at it, it's the same situation, with just a different perspective. That was huge for me.

Gunila Pedersen: And what was the biggest piece for you to see that? What was it that made you shift?

Amber: Yeah, I think one of the things was the first time I fired a client.

Gunila Pedersen: Wow!

Amber: So, obviously, you can see a lot of my trauma was from, like, client interactions and cases that have gone bad, but it was the, like… oh my gosh, their pet didn't do well, or whatever, and now it's that human piece. But it was… I was working ER, and thankfully I worked in an ER that they were… it was… they were very unhinged in many different ways, but if a client was rude or crazy, they were like, whatever, like, there's one down the street, just keep on going. And this lady came in, and we… it was during COVID, so she was, you know, it was, like, curbside, so I didn't see her. And the second she got out of her car door, she was complaining about the mulch and the shrubs, and then the… and I was like, that's… yeah, my technician was like, oh god, this lady's gonna be a lot. And so, she's telling me all this stuff. And then I do my exam, the dog is super stable, I call the owner, and she's complaining about us to me, like, you guys are awful, this and that, and I'm like, why are you here? And she's like, well, the other clinic is too far away, so I thought I'd be here, and my vet is closed, and I was like, no, you know what? Buh-bye. I was like, you know what? All right, we're not… like, we had a conversation, I talked to her about what was going on, but I was like, I'm not gonna make you happy. And I'm thinking to myself, my intuition is, like, this is gonna go south so quick, this is gonna bite you in the ass. So I basically was like, I'm gonna give you your records, here you go. And she was pissed, but she left, and I was like, wait a minute, the world didn't end.

Gunila Pedersen: No, it didn't.

Amber: I didn't get a bad Google review, the manager, whatever, that's cool, and the world didn't end. And I was like, oh, oh, this is a thing. So that was, like, a huge turning point of, okay, this can be done, and I don't have to be mean, rude, go home and cry, or be a doormat. I can be a human, and my values and what I need can get respected, too. So that was a big turning point for me.

Gunila Pedersen: I love that. That is so good. I feel like… and that's where I think this work comes in, right? And that's exactly what it says. It's not like, now I'm all chill, and I can just, like, take everything in my stride, which I can, but that doesn't mean I'm going to. I now have the confidence and the calmness, instead of me being anxious and doubting myself, and oh my god, maybe I should do something different to make her happy, I can be like, no way, like, I'm never gonna make her happy. I'm, you know, I'm cool, and I'm cool with that. The dog's gonna be fine, bye, you know, and not giving a second thought, like, that's just how it is. When you are in this calm, confident place, right? And you don't have to make it mean anything, and you don't have to spin for the next six nights, and what if I had said that, and what if she said that, and what if this, and what if the review, and you're, like, checking the reviews, like you said, like, when you're checking, like, the Google page all the time, you know, that's it, isn't it? You can still be a badass and stand your ground, but you're just not coming from this, like, nervous, you know, hysterical, oh my god, like, that's it, I've had it. You could just be calm and professional, right?

Amber: Right, and honestly, once you do that, I'm sure you've experienced this a little bit, it's almost like, like, a new door opened, like, oh, oh, we can do this, and it feels, like, very freeing, but you get a lot of confidence. In America, every other aspect of your job, I think. I don't know if you experience that, too.

Gunila Pedersen: I think so, and then… and that's the thing, like, what I love about the coaching is that it's not like you have to, like, do it all, and then you're done, and you have to get to this end product, and now I could go out and be good in vet med. Like, you can just have the little shifts, I'm sure your podcast as well, my podcast, whatever, like, little things, and you're like, you implement it. And you're like, oh, oh, and that is kind of a step to the next thing, right? And you can just… and it's always a work in progress.

Amber: Right, yeah, because I think a lot of us, we wait until we're, like, in emergency mode of, like, this is awful, I gotta go, I should have left 2 years ago, I'm in panic mode, and then we're trying to scramble to, like, fix it like that. And I'm like, well, it doesn't happen that quickly, but also, we don't have to revamp our whole lives in order to do that.

Gunila Pedersen: No, exactly. Yeah, yeah. I think it can be good to take a break, like, so for me it was amazing. Take a break, but some of my clients, like, some that I have at this point, like, having panic attacks, and just can't… then I think it's probably best that you take a little break, just to get your nervous system down. But you don't have to, like, if you catch it earlier, and I think if that's one thing we can, like, spread out to both our audiences, it's like, get, like, help, or find a way to start changing things now, not when you are, this is it, I'm gonna start a bakery instead, right? Like, you can, like, start now, you know, rather sooner than later.

Amber: Yeah, and you don't have to do it by yourself, you know, and I think that's a lot of, like, because we just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, and whatever it is, well, you know, we know we can do that, because we do it every day, but you don't have to, you know, figure it all out by yourself, and in the process, you don't have enough capacity and bandwidth to figure it out, because you're already so burnt out. So, for your listeners, my listeners, it's getting that support of just, like, you more than deserve it, and you don't have to, like, burn out till you're this crispy fried thing, you know? Like, get help when you're like, this isn't working for me. I think that's enough to know that you need that, and can benefit from that support.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, because I think, like, we're both too, like, smart, normal, like, we are capable, right? We are successful, and I couldn't do it on my own. I could never have gotten to this. I could never, like, for how many books I'd read, like, without the coaches saying to me, like, but why do you want to control how happy people are? I'm like, because… you what? What? Because I have to, you know, like, asking those questions where you suddenly see, like, hey, what am I even doing here, right?

Amber: Your blind spots. Like, we can't see our own blind spots. That's also why I have a coach, you know? Like, it's the same thing. You just need someone else, it's that perspective.

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah, exactly. Amazing, yeah!

Amber: We're gonna have to do this again.

Gunila Pedersen: I'm gonna have to do this again. But until then, like, where can people find you, Amber?

Amber: Yeah, so I'm on… well, we mostly hang out on Instagram. My handle is at DR for doctor, period, Amber Parks, A-M-B-E-R-P-A-R-K-S, and my podcast is Stop the Burnout. And I'm on TikTok and Facebook, but mostly on Instagram. And, yeah, I'd love for you to share for my listeners as well, where…

Gunila Pedersen: Yeah.

Amber: I do.

Gunila Pedersen: So, I am Gunila Life Coach, so G-U-N-I-L-A, Gunila Life Coach on Instagram. I am, like, everywhere, because I know. Yeah, all or nothing! I'm on, like, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Reddit, you name it, and then I have my podcast, which is the Overwhelmed Vet podcast.

Amber: Love this, love it. Yeah. Oh my gosh, so good, so good.

Gunila Pedersen: We can stalk each other now since we've met.

Amber: I know! I listened to… actually, I listened to a couple of your episodes, and that's when I was like, oh, this is gonna be fun. We are very, very similar.

Gunila Pedersen: We are, and we are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Amber: Totally raw, unhinged, like, this isn't, like, let's make this a pretty professional little package and package it all up. No, like, this is real life, and I think that that makes that conversation so much easier for other people, too.

Gunila Pedersen: I think so, and we honestly don't have time to sit there and, like, make nice AI templates on that. There's no time for that. This is what I gotta say, plan, post, yeah.

Amber: 100%, yeah, yeah, it's life, it's real life, for sure.

Gunila Pedersen: Oh, well, it was lovely to speak to you, but we'll have to come up with something again.

Amber: Yes, yeah.

Gunila Pedersen: I feel like those 100 points we didn't touch.

Amber: I know, right? We did a good, well-rounded, but yes, we could go in a hundred different directions, but yeah, no, thank you so much for the opportunity. I'm so excited to share you with my listeners, too.

Gunila Pedersen: Amazing. Okay.

Amber: Thank you. So good!

Gunila Pedersen: Thank you.

Amber: No problem.

Gunila Pedersen: Right.

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