The Sober Travel Movement with Joni Sweet: Writer for National Geographic, Frommer's Travel Guides, Travel Weekly, Trip Savvy, Time Magazine, and More

In this episode of 'Sober Travel', Kat discusses the growing sober travel movement with guest Joni Sweet, a celebrated travel, health, and wellness writer for National Geographic, Frommers Guides, Time Magazine, Travel Weekly, Trip Savvy, Forbes, and more! They delve into how the sober curious and sobriety movements are influencing travel and hospitality, revealing a significant shift in public opinion regarding alcohol consumption. Joni shares insights from her article for Frommer's on sober travel, discussing her research process, the positive reception to the piece, and the array of alcohol-free options being offered by airlines, hotels, and destinations. Joni and Kat discuss how wellness and travel intersect, offering personal advice on how to make travel a fulfilling part of one's sobriety and wellness journey.

If you like this podcast, please subscribe and give us a 5-star review on Apple Podcast. If you would like to live and travel alcohol-free, head over to Kat Lyons Official so Kat and her team can help you with the perfect sober vacation for you and your family. Here you can also learn more about alcohol-free group trips and alcohol-free meetups!

Please consider supporting Joni's 79-mile bike ride on August 4th as part of the 2024 Pan-Mass Challenge. Her goal is to raise $6,000 for breast cancer research at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute.

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Transcript

  📍   Hey there and welcome to sober traveling the podcast where we trade hangovers for high fives and explore the world one alcohol free adventure at a time. I'm your host count lions, whether you're sober, curious, or have long-term sobriety, get ready. As we travel across the globe with clear minds and big dreams. 

 Today I'm here with Joni Sweet, who has done so many different writing awesomeness over her career. She's been featured in National Geographic, in Forbes, Time, Frommer's Guides, Real Simple, Travel Weekly, and Trip Savvy.

And on. Just so many wonderful excerpts on writing. And I actually found her because of the article she wrote for Frommer's about the sober travel movement. 

Joni also. does some amazing charity work. And this summer on August 4th, she is part. of the 2024 pan-mass challenge. Writing 79 miles via bike. And her goal is to raise $6,000 for breast cancer research at the Dana Farber Cancer Institute. Just amazing work. 

So she's here today to talk more about sober traveling, and I'm going to pass it over to her to introduce herself and what she does. 

Thanks for having me, Kathleen. Yeah, as Kathleen mentioned, I'm Johnny Sweet. I write primarily about travel health and wellness and the ways they intersect and sometimes the ways that they are completely unique unto themselves.  I recently wrote an article about sober travel.

 Basically an editor at Frommer's emailed me and said we're noticing a big uptick in sober travel and you write a lot about travel and wellness. Is this a story you'd like to work on for us? And I jumped at the opportunity because I had seen it myself, both in my own travels and then my work as a travel writer where I'm constantly learning about what airlines and hotels and destinations are up to.

Yeah, so that's how I started writing about it. The article came out a few months ago, earlier this year. And I've gotten a great response from it. This is a topic that's really resonating with people right now. In my article I quoted a survey that came out that says Seven in 10 Americans now think that alcohol is having a negative impact on people's lives which is a pretty substantial statistic.

So between the growing sober curious movement and then just the growing awareness that alcohol can create a lot of harms in people's lives we're seeing this pop up in the travel space and hospitality partners and airlines and things like that are responding with a lot of different options for people. 

 I love that you're finding that response to and that's a very impressive statistic or non-impressive depending on how you're looking at it. But that's a lot of people who agree that alcohol isn't this glamorous thing that it was when I was growing up it was all about alcohol.

And now it's all about wellness, it seems, which is significantly better than being drunk all the time.  So when you were going about your research,  how did you go about that? What did that look like?  

So I interviewed several people. I interviewed somebody who wrote a book about the Sober Curious Movement.

I interviewed folks who are operating tour companies focused exclusively on sober travel. Who else did I interview? I think that's the bulk of it. To just get their thoughts on what's going on in the space. I then reached out to a lot of PR people I know, and I said, what's, what's going on with your clients?

Are the hotels you're working with revamping the menus at their bars? How about cruise lines? What's going on there? And I found out so many interesting things. I found out that several major cruise lines are now offering spirit free alternatives to their traditional cocktails at their bars that includes carnival cruises.

Norwegian Cruise Line also won an award recently for its non alcoholic beverage program, which was really fun to see.  Club Med opened a new property in Spain about a year and a half ago now. I visited and I went to their pool bar at their Zen pool. And I looked at the menu and I noticed there's no alcohol on it.

And so I asked the bartender, what's going on there? He's oh this is our wellness area and we really want it to be a Zen space. So we only offer smoothies here. Like even though club med does all inclusive plenty of like cocktails to be found. That specific space was supposed to be a wellness space.

space for people. And so they, they decided not to offer alcohol there, which was really interesting. What else? Oh, I saw some ski chalets in Europe that are now offering some mocktails made with seed lip. I'm sure many of your viewers are familiar with seed lip the spirit free alternative. So that was fun to see, especially in the Opry ski space that is so alcohol focused at many other places.

It's great to see an alternative there. And we're even seeing it on some airlines. Emirates now offers special Mocktails in its first class cabin. And I would love to see some of that expand into the business class and especially the main economy cabins as well where most of us are flying. 

I will say too, one of the reasons that I hesitate when there's  the upgrade option for first class is because I don't want that moment where they offer you that free champagne and I have to be like,  No, obviously, but still, it just gets the inner workings going. So that's really neat that they're being proactive there and offering something alternative as well.

Maybe one day they'll offer it to us  in the back too.  

In first class, a lot of airlines now send out a menu. Ahead of time to their passengers who have a flight coming up saying, what would you like to have for dinner? It would be great to see them offer a drink option as well.

And saying, if you could check a box saying nonalcoholic options only, please, or I'm alert, even like for allergies or diet concerns, only something sugar free, I think as airlines get more sophisticated in their personalization, which is great. A big part of where travel is going right now.

I think we might see some of that in the future.  

I think too, that it would help them gain more customers even, because if I knew that like American airlines always had these non alcoholic options and it wasn't just like diet Coke,  because if you're trying to do low sugar and you don't drink it's diet Coke.

Or Coke Zero, or Diet Pepsi depending on the line, but it's just, it gets so okay, I don't want caffeine at, my midnight flight, so it's I can have water,  so that is awareness, or juice, but for people who have, like you said, dietary restrictions, or they're diabetic, or whatever it is, it's nice that they're catering now to the whole alcohol awareness as well.

Yeah, they're really starting to and and I think that's important for everybody, regardless of your relationship with alcohol to have alcohol free alternatives available to you, flights are notoriously dehydrating you're dealing with jet lag, you're dealing with exhaustion, the alcohol can only make that worse.

So even people who are consuming alcohol regularly might want a healthier option to that. That's still enjoyable and fun and feel special in the sky, but isn't going to leave them feeling really lousy when they land.  

Absolutely. So you mentioned a couple names there, and I will say I went on a Norwegian cruise.

to Alaska two years ago. And I was impressed with their options. They even had like actual cocktails instead of just  sometimes their non alcoholic ones are like margarita mix.  Yeah. Okay.  They had no heatos and things like that. So it was definitely  I felt Like a part of the crew or whatever with my family, it wasn't awkward, not that it is super awkward for me anymore with this much sober time, but every once in a while you get that, that FOMO, that fear of missing out, right?

When everybody's got their fancy thing and their fancy cup and you're sitting there with your Dixie cup full of water.  

No, it's so true. You will like when you're on vacation or celebrating something you want, something special in a glass and it shouldn't always have to come with alcohol. And I'm so glad different bars and hotels are now responding to that.

We're even seeing non alcoholic bars pop up in certain cities. Like Portland has one, I think Austin might have one where it's the same like bar environment, but there's no alcohol in it. And then we're even seeing a lot of mainstream bars. In different cities come up with really great nonalcoholic menus that are just as special and festive and, loaded with the the garnishes and served in a pretty glass that make you feel like you're part of the party.

You're not like. Excluding yourself or drinking something else and not drawing attention on yourself if that's not what you want. So I'm loving it. I think it's so good for everyone, regardless of your relationship with alcohol to have these alternative options available to you  that feel special and fun. 

Absolutely. Okay. Tell me more about these non alcoholic bars. 

Portland had one when I visited last summer. And it really is what you would expect from a bar, right?

It's going to be a long bar stools, maybe some high tubs, maybe some socialization spaces, but it is about. Really that like social environment and not about getting drunk and not about just drinking it's capturing like kind of the best that a bar has to offer for socialization without making people feel without making people feel like they have to drink, or without excluding people who just  are not drinking alcohol at all.

Bars can be a very off limits kind of place if you are in recovery. So this opens the door for that for people who are interested in the social aspect.  

So cool.  I haven't been to one of those yet, so I'm going to have to look it up.

And I'm assuming you mean Portland, Oregon, not Portland and other states, right? That's correct. Portland, Oregon. Because I live in Oregon and I'm like, that's totally of course, Portland is doing this. I didn't even hear it advertised though. So maybe we need to do some promoting of that. Yeah,  definitely.

 I'm noticing that there's lots of different alternatives now than when I was In my bar and club era, a couple of years ago like they even have the silent,  discos and all these different things  just on the raised awareness of people's wellbeing and that not everyone just wants to do the old school, get drunk, loud music, throw up.

Routine 

anymore. Yeah. I think with Gen Z, especially we're seeing this much bigger awareness with what we're putting into our bodies and how it's making us feel. And, that includes, I think, sensory inputs as well. The loud music, like you're talking about that, the bright lights, I think we're seeing so much more awareness and responsiveness to that.

Which I think can make the world a much more a place that's more supportive to our overall wellbeing. 

Absolutely. Just inclusive, right? Because you have  to not go, that's the big thing with somebody who's in recovery or if someone's pregnant or it's for religious reasons, like whatever the reason is that they're not drinking. 

It's so nice that we can actually still participate and not have, just that fear piece that comes along with it. Have you noticed, In your travels, how is, are other countries starting to be more aware? You mentioned club med, are there 

other ones like that? I think it's gonna vary country by country.

What my experts have told me is Europe, parts of Europe are getting a lot more. Friendly to the sober curious and sobriety movement.  I think it really depends on where you go. There are certain destinations that are going to be more focused on that alcohol fueled party scene.

And I don't think that will change anytime soon, although I think we may see more options pop up. I don't think the overall character of the place is going to be that different in the next say, 10 years. But I think major cities like London and Paris probably have more stuff going on.  

That's so exciting.

Alrighty, so what,  why do you think traveling's important for those, especially for those of us who are on some kind of wellness journey or in recovery, things like that? What do you think the benefit 

of travel is? I think there are so many benefits. There's so many studies out there that say travel can reduce our stress.

And from a personal experience, it really just opens your eyes to everything that's out there. I read a study that a couple of years ago, I actually covered it for Forbes that talked about the importance of novelty in our overall happiness. And travel is always By definition, a novel experience, right?

You're going somewhere you've never been before, or you maybe you've been there, but you're going to see something new. It adds that spice to your life that keeps it really like interesting and fun. 

I agree with that so much. And it's even Before when you're in the planning phase and you're just getting excited.

And then during the trip, obviously you're learning a lot and you're taking a break from the mundane day to day stuff. And then after your trip, you have all these memories and new life experiences. And then you're like, okay, I got to do this again.  I know. I say 

that every time I go on a trip, I, I don't cross anything off my bucket list, my travel bucket list.

I just add two or three more places that I've now learned about. So it is like a life's pursuit in a way. You brought up, what did you just say? You brought up something really interesting. Oh, the anticipation of travel. There's there's a lot of research out there that shows that we actually get the most happiness from the planning of the trip and the anticipating, anticipation of the trip and not even as much as on the trip itself.

So that planning part is actually like a part to relish in and feel really good about. It can be a little stressful, of course, like nailing down your logistics. What are we going to do and where are we going to stay? But that thinking about what that trip is going to be is a really important part of the travel journey for people.

So I think that's so interesting.  

It truly is. I absolutely agree. It's what I built my career around right is that I could coach people through the process of planning their trips and staying sober and picking the places that are going to keep your sobriety protected. And then  during the trip and after the trip I support as well.

But yes, the excitement of just the planning and going to bed with a smile thinking like I'm going to go to sleep. Spain soon, or I'm gonna go, to Africa soon or wherever it is that you're going. It's like you start mentally going there before you leave, right? Yeah. And that's, yeah 

I don't know about you.

I'll be scrolling through Instagram, seeing pictures of where I'm gonna go and getting so excited. And it also helps you, I think for me anyway, it helps me. Cope a little bit with some of the stressors of life. If I'm like, okay, I have this vacation coming up in three weeks. I just got to get through it.

Got to get through this bulk of assignments or these like family affairs or whatever's going on that feels a little bit stressful or time consuming, having that trip on the horizon really can help you get through it. 

Oh my gosh. As a person who used be a teacher, I totally relate to that too.

It's oh, Two more weeks to win a break or whatever it is, but it's the same thing, just with traveling in general, because it's like reading a book, your mind goes somewhere else. And even though it'll be  a gloomy, rainy  day, I'm sitting on a beach in my head in Cabo, right? 

It's a different, 

exactly. I think another reason why travel is so beneficial is it can really boost your confidence. I remember being, how old was I? 21. I spent six months living in India. Living and traveling, and it was such a different environment for me and it, everything from going to the grocery store to at the time I had to top up my cell phone with minutes, right?

All these little things that you have to do during your day that you're so used to at home and feel so mundane. All of a sudden I feel exciting again because they're like little challenges or like mini challenges throughout your day. And when you accomplish them you feel like so good about yourself.

You're like, Oh, I just did that. I navigated public transportation in a city I'm unfamiliar with. And I overcame a language barrier and had to do it in different systems and processes. So I think it can really boost your confidence when can accomplish some normal things that you have to do during a trip.

Just because it does have that element of novelty and, makes these mundane things feel a little less mundane.  

Absolutely. And then when you're sitting here and someone, you're on the freeway here in the U. S. and someone cuts you off in traffic, you're like, you know what? I navigated the streets of India.

This is nothing, right?  

I know.  You hear about traffic and when you've been to a place with real real traffic, you're like, oh, this is nothing. You know what I'm saying?  

Wait, you're like, none of these people can bother me. I did this for a month in India or whatever it is. That's so cool. So  what's going on with the whole wellness travel movement and how do you think that's different than travel in the past?

I think if you talked about wellness travel, maybe 15, 20 years ago, it would have been all about the spa. And I love a spa. I could, go to a spa every day of my life and feel very happy. But I'm glad to see now that wellness travel is growing beyond that. It, it's not just about going to your treatment room, get your facial or massage, and then lounge around for a little while and then go back to whatever you were doing.

Yeah. I think now it's throughout the travel journey. We're seeing at airports now, you can get a manicure or a mini massage, or you can go into a meditation room at some airports. I saw an airport recently that had a yoga studio in it, which I thought was so cool to see. I didn't have time to take a class, but now that I know it's there, next time I'm transiting through it, it might be something I consider.

And then on the flights, we're seeing the non alcoholic cocktail options that we talked about. I know when I fly Delta, they have a partnership, I believe it's with the app Calm to do some like meditations in the sky. I love that. If you are going to a wellness resort, you're going to see so many options for activities outside the spa.

A lot of, forest bathing or cold plunges, that sort of thing that really get you into nature because we know nature is so healing. That kind of stuff. And then for me personally I think of adventurous activities as part of wellness as well, because they push me outside my comfort zone.

 Afterward, I feel so good about myself and so accomplished. And I stepped outside of my regular life to do something really cool and interesting.  I come home feeling better. better about myself and how I spend my time. I just did a new Via Ferrata at Mohonk Mountain House, which is a historic resort located not far from where I live in upstate New York. 

 I just felt invigorated for days afterward. I love, like I said, I love a massage. I feel amazing afterward, but a massage doesn't leave me feeling good for days and days, like the way these adventurous activities do. 

Yeah. Okay, two questions. First question, which airport has yoga? 

That's awesome. I knew you were going to ask me that. I'm trying to remember where I was flying through. It was recently. I can Google it. You know what? It might have been Salt Lake City.  That would because I flew through there recently and I think it was Salt Lake City. I'll have to get back to you.

I wish I looked it up before our call. I'm sorry about 

that. I'm selfishly asking because I'm about to fly into Austin. I think I'm going to Dallas, Fort Worth. And I was like, that's such a big airport. They've got to have something cool. They might 

have one. You never know. I, you see randomly like gyms pop up at airports sometimes, and I wish more of them had it because how often have you been stuck in an airport on a really long layover, either?

by your own making or by a flight delay, right? Where you're like, okay, I guess I'm stuck here for the next six or eight hours. How great would it be to go squeeze in a workout and take a quick shower?  I would get on that next flight feeling so much better than if I had just sat on my butt and got some fast food and, nothing wrong with that.

When you're stuck at the airport, you have limited options. To entertain and sustain yourself. But I would love to see more options like that pop up. 

The only one I've done so far is Minneapolis St. Paul airport has a  quiet space on the second floor. And I just happened to find it.

Cause I had about six hours to sit there and it's like food, bars, shopping. That's pretty much an airport.  For me, I don't need to spend more money. That could become an addiction. I don't want to drink anymore because that is an addiction. And I don't want to eat a bunch of crap because then it'll lead to, I'll swell on the plane and all these things.

So I was like, okay, so I went to the bookstore, I bought a beautiful book and I went up to the quiet area and I read the book. And it was so nice. It was actually  part of the, my favorite part of the trip, which wow.  So bizarre, but I didn't have to work at that time. Like everything was done. So I didn't have pressure of work.

I didn't have anybody with me. I was by myself. So there was no social. Yeah. And so I actually got to stop and sit in a quiet space with a nice book and a comfy chair. And I'm like this. is wellness. And I don't have to spend money for a massage and all that. And so I totally think you're spot on with wellness being a kind of like a mindset shift for a lot of these locations and for the traveler.

Because I could have just sat at McDonald's at the food cart, for six hours on my phone.  But then what am I doing? I'm not getting anything positive out of that really, other than killing time. So I love that we get to invest in our own  wellness and our own sense of peace.

Yeah, I think that's a perfect way of putting it. I think you can ask yourself if you're wondering is this activity part of wellness, ask yourself,  am I going to feel better after doing it than I did before. And it clearly just reading your book in a nice quiet space did and I think that can all be part of it.

Wellness travel doesn't have to be super expensive. You don't have to go to a super fancy resort to have it. You can find little pockets of wellness travel everywhere. 

That being said, since you've traveled a lot, I should ask, if you were someone like me, who has some time sober, and was looking for some places, where would be your top choices of places to go and activities?

I'm having a love affair right now with the resort I was just telling you about Mohawk Mountain House in New Paltz, New York. It's been around for over 100 years, maybe 150. It's a very historic resort owned by the same family for, I think, five generations now. And it's just amazing. They call it a castle resort because it looks like a castle on this beautiful, glassy lake in the Hudson Valley,  right next to the Shawanga Mountains, which is like a rock climber's paradise. 

They have acres and acres of historic hiking trails you can do. They have a lake where you can do cold plunges in the spring, fall, and winter, and then swimming in the summer, and these gorgeous rowboats you can just borrow and take out on the lake their spa is phenomenal in terms of it's an all inclusive resort, which there aren't that many all  inclusives in the U.

S. You mostly find them in Mexico or the Caribbean, So it's cool to have that option where, your food's going to be covered. Most of your activities are included. So the meals there are amazing. They use a lot of fresh local ingredients and I will say their bar menu is fantastic.

They have, if you want to drink, they have the traditional cocktails, but they also have put so much thought into their non alcoholic options as well. It's actually divided into two sections. They have, their spirit alternative. Drinks where they're putting the non alcoholic spirits like seed lip and similar options into their cocktails.

If you want something more traditional or if you're just happy with a mocktail made with really fresh ingredients. Some of them are grown on site in the greenhouse. They have that option too. So at dinner, you can have something just as fun and best of it as everybody else and feel, Just so welcomed by the hospitality.

It really, it's a special place that is built with magic in my opinion.  

I love it. Is it one of those places? I'm envisioning one of these resorts that we have here in Oregon near Crater Lake National Park. And it's it's an older one. It's not all inclusive, but anyways, there's certain times of the year that are definitely better to go there.

Is there a certain time of year that you think would be best? 

I think summer and fall are going to be your best options at Mohawk Mountain House. There's truly no bad time to visit, but in the summer that's when you're really going to be able to make the most of the outdoor activities, and there are so many.

There's archery last time I was there I did tomahawk throwing, that was really fun. They have all kinds of hiking, they have e bikes there that you can borrow, the rowboating.  So if you love the like outdoors, summer is where it's at. Fall is also lovely because this area is really known for the foliage.

People come from around the world to try and catch the leaves at their perfect peak fall foliage color. So if you can time it you can get some absolutely amazing views of the foliage from Mohonk. They have a great easy trail that anyone can do that leads you to an old fire tower and from there you get an expansive view of the trees and the mountains and it's just gorgeous and truly the best time to capture that view is in the fall in my opinion.

Okay, I'm adding it to my list. It's on my list now, Johnny. I'm 

going. You should definitely go. I've gone a few times. I'm actually going back on Wednesday. I'm treating myself to a little spa day and some hiking. Taking the day off for a little self care and wellness. So I go on my own. I've gone as a writer on assignment.

But it's a place that's really close to my heart and I love it. 

I love that idea. I'm excited. Okay. And I love that you brought up things like archery and tomahawk throwing too, because I used to run this outdoor school program at one of my old jobs. And too, we used to try and get the kids to throw the tomahawk and hit, and there's such a technique to it.

And there was this whole competition. If you could do it for as many times as you are old and kids could get a prize and all this. And to me, that's wellness too. Because you get that sense of accomplishment and I'm trying something new. And this is a traditional activity.

That's really neat. So that's wellness too, in my mind. 

I would totally agree. I was terrible at tomahawk throwing for the first 40 minutes of the class. And then toward the end I finally got the technique. The instructor kept coaching me about how to do it. And I finally was hitting the bullseye with that tomahawk and it made me feel amazing.

I didn't even think I would like this activity, but after trying it, I'm like, Oh, that was so fun. I feel great. I feel a sense of accomplishment. Cause I hit that bullseye at least a couple of times. I did get two in the two in a row. Once that was my claim to fame that day. 

That was hard.

That's good.    As far as back to sober travel, do you have any tips or strategies that you think would help our viewers when they're planning trips or going on trips to just maintain their sobriety and eliminate some fear around it? 

Yeah, I think there's a few things you can do. I think you can be really selective about where you go. One of the experts I interviewed for my story and fromers  said, maybe don't go to Ibiza, because it is like all about that. alcohol party scene, set yourself up for success by going somewhere, will support your your needs.

A lot of things my experts have told me they all agree that you should try and fill your day with other activities. Don't leave the door open to just sitting by the pool wherever everyone at the resort is drinking. And it's not really the vibe. You're better off like planning those activities.

Like we were just talking about it at Mohawk, for example okay, in the morning, I'm going to take a rowboat ride and then I'm going to do the tomahawk throwing class. And then I'm going to go on a hike or whatever is interesting to you. It doesn't all have to be active. I've been to resorts where they have painting classes and things like that. 

Even cooking classes. So I would say try and fill your day with a few different activities that are really fun and interesting to you. And then surround yourself with people who are supportive of your choices and lifestyle as well. There's nothing wrong with going on vacation with a mixed group, some who drink, some who don't, right.

But it's about that level of respect and support that you can expect from those around you. So travel with people who you feel like. You're getting that from and if you have to go on a trip with somebody who isn't going to do that for you, then we try and maintain a little bit of distance here and there and take time for yourself regardless, that time for self care, at least for me, it's really important for me to come home feeling better than when I left.

So I sometimes will opt out of group activities or if dinner's dragging on a little too long, I'll try and say, okay, time, it's my Cinderella hour. I got to get back back to the room and, try and relax and take care of yourself first.  

I love that tip.

Absolutely. And as somebody who's traveled with people who are both supportive, and then Travel to people who are not supportive. These supportive people are the key to success. And what I found too, going along with what you said is like, when I'm booking a room, if I'm going on a business trip or if I'm going to whatever, I always book my own room unless I'm going with somebody who I know really well, or who doesn't drink and needs that, we can be together, but sometimes if I'm going with a drink, drinking crew,  I don't want to see the hangover in the morning. 

I don't want to see the late night stumble into bed as much. And so I always book my own room as well, just so that I have that level of protection in case things get dicey and I can be like, Oh, I have to do something really quick. I'll be seeing you in two hours. What am I doing? I might be reading a book on recovery, or I might be reading an article about the city I'm in, taking that.

Personal time. 

 I love a sneaky bath myself. If the hotel I'm at has a really great bathtub, like I gotta go for an hour, just go lounge in the tub, bring a little bit of bubble bath or a bath bomb with you. And for me, it's so restorative, especially after a long flight, to soak the muscles and just being like a quiet space with dim lighting.

And I just love that.  I love that too. I call it luxuriating. Yes. That's a great word 

for it.  I tell my family, I'm going to go luxuriate for a while,  but I'm going to go luxuriate by myself. 

Yeah. That solo time is so important. When I travel on assignment, I'm often traveling with a group of other journalists and for me, I'm self employed.

I work from home. I spend a lot of time by myself. So to go from that to all of a sudden a group of eight people and we're talking and laughing all day, it can be exhausting. Same goes when you're traveling with your family, you're all of a sudden in close quarters and you're doing everything together.

I think sneaking in some solo time is really important. 

And then you get to come back together and talk about what you did, which is exactly, 

yeah. Exactly. Even when my partner and I travel together sometimes we'll do different activities because we have sometimes different interests. We have a lot of shared interests, but sometimes there's something I really want to do that he's not into.

And so we'll split up and do different things. And it's really fun to talk about our own unique experiences afterward at dinner. 

Absolutely. And sometimes we're disinterested 

in taking 

a nap.  

Seriously.  I am not a good sleeper, so that nap can be a lifesaver on nights where I haven't slept well.  

Yeah, either I'm not a good sleeper either, especially when I'm jet lagged and things are weird.

I'm just like, okay, honey, you go explore. I'll be right here. 

And they've done studies on the brain that show like your first night in a hotel. You, you're actually like on alert kind of all night, even if you can sleep half your brains on alert. Making sure that you're safe because it's a foreign environment to you.

So it's very common not to sleep well in hotels, especially on that first night.  

Makes me feel so much better that I'm not alone in that because yeah, you are not alone.  Okay. Night two is better for you? Yeah. Yeah.  Yeah. Night one is wait, where's the door again? Is it locked? You know what I mean? I just have these, and most of them are completely irrational as I'm usually in a safe space, but it's or even just waking 

up and be like, where the heck am I?

Oh yeah.  Your brain knows that you're not at home. Your brain knows I'm not in my home sanctuary. I need to be on alert. Even if you rationally know oh, I'm fine. This is a safe hotel. I'm fine. But your brain is no I need to make sure. So yeah, you don't get a great night's sleep.

Another thing I've noticed in hotels that drives me crazy is all the little LED lights, like on the, sometimes the phone will have it or the TV or the thermostat. Those are very bad for your sleep. I'm especially sensitive to them. So now I travel with a little roll of black electrical tape and I just rip off tiny little pieces, block out the lights.

It makes the room so much darker for me and doesn't damage anything. I peel them off before I leave and you wouldn't even know they were there. So it's a great way of sneaking in some extra darkness.  

That is so smart. That is very smart. I love it. Try it. 

Throw a roll of tape in your bag and you'll always want to have it with you. 

 I bring a nightlight with me for the bathroom so I don't stumble in the dark, but I didn't think about the tape. That's a good tip too, bringing tape. I like the nightlight 

idea. That's a great idea. 

Because if you have to turn on the light in the bathroom, then all of a sudden my brain's it's morning 

Yeah. I'll use like my flashlight on my phone, but I love the nightlight idea. 

. I will say I ended up buying a huge pack of very inexpensive ones because I have left.  Quite a few. I bet. 

You know what? And I bet they're still there. I bet like the housekeeping team didn't even notice that they're not part of the room.

Yeah. So you can feel, yeah, you can feel good. You're supporting other travelers.  

I think I left the last one at Disneyland hotel. So have a magical experience  after me.  There you go.  Oh my gosh. Okay. So we've talked about so many wonderful things. I think we've hit most topics, but as we wrap up here, is there anything else you'd like to add before we close out? 

Ooh. I think it's pretty normal to have travel anxiety,  and especially since the pandemic where travel is still a little quirky places are having a hard time staffing up and, flight delays are very normal now. So I would say just set yourself up for excess to feel for success to feel as calm and positive throughout the experience as you can.

For me, it's about limiting. The sensory overload that can come from being in an airport. So I bring really good headphones. For the flight, I buy these disposable eye masks that, that warm up on their own. So I'll pop one on as we're taking off and the soothing warmth on my eyes for an hour, like really helps me relax and often get to sleep. 

Um, dress in layers. A lot of people don't dress in layers on a flight and they're either very cold or very hot. So all of these little things you can do to calm the anxiety and at least make yourself feel physically supported can go a long way to like dealing with the hiccups of traveling, especially during the holidays when it's so busy and there's weather problems.

Like the leaves. Think about what you want to have with you and what's going to make you feel supported in a worst case scenario kind of situation and you're going to feel so much better if anything comes up along your journey.  

That eye mask is a really smart idea.

I always bring earplugs because I never know if there's going to be noisy, whatever. And then I bring allergy meds because I have some pet allergies with certain breeds of dogs. Just in case there's a fur baby as the safety, 

but. 

An eye mask sounds really lovely. Yeah, 

they even buy packs of them on Amazon.

I think they're either from, I think they might be from Korea like K beauty kind of thing. But they're great. You just open the package up and they're made out of a nice soft material and they warm up on their own. They don't get too hot, but they're called steamy eye masks. And they're just so relaxing and so great to have if you're like Just done with it, right?

Like you've been, it's your third hour of flight delays, and you're finally on the plane and everyone's sitting down, everyone's grumpy, just throw on that eye mask and it's so much better.  

 You're luxuriating, right? You got your eye mask, your headphones, you got your warmth or it's just, it makes all the difference versus being that stuffy feeling when you're, yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Some people I've even seen like travel with a little fan. I tend to overheat. So I love having my layers to mostly take off. And now those little fans have become so appealing to me. I'll probably get one before my next trip. 

Yeah, they have those that you can clip onto the seat in front of you.

That's what my husband. Yeah. He's got one. That is such a good idea. I need one of those. Yeah. I know. I need to, maybe we should invent one that's got a fan and a phone holder so you can watch something. There's some money. That's a million, that's 

a million dollar idea right there.  The luxuriating experience.

Yes. I love it. I love it.  

Oh my gosh. This has been so helpful and informative and fun.  I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to all of us today about your experiences. 

It was my pleasure. I love talking about this stuff. So thank you for having me.  

 Absolutely. My pleasure. 

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