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Welcome to the neuro nurture podcast, dedicated to equipping and supporting families, navigating the world of autism and neurodiversity. I am your host, Kirsten Sullivan, who is on a mission to help autism families go from surviving to thriving. Welcome to the show. Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode. I am so excited for today because I am bringing on a guest speaker. Her name is Elsie and she is the founder and creative force behind a happy place counseling. And she counsels children, teenagers, and adults. She has a special interest in working with neurodivergent individuals. She obtained her bachelor of fine arts and bachelor of social science honors in psychology from the university of Pretoria, and her research focused on inclusion, empathy, pro social communities, and Standing perspectives. She also has extensive training and qualifications in the wellness counseling space. And she has achieved various qualifications in social, emotional assessments and trauma incident reduction. She is currently developing her skills as a registered social worker student, and she really believes in a radical acceptance. And making sure that everybody is supported and understood in a transparent, safe, and judgment free environment. Elsie is neurodivergent herself, and she also has extensive qualifications and experience in play therapy courses, Gestalt language processing courses, and also neurodiversity friendly AAC device courses. She also owns a happy space and Coke Etsy shop where she provides and sells therapeutic, affordable resources, worksheets, and tools to really assist all neurodivergent individuals. And today we will be diving into how to create a safe and supportive environment for neurodivergent clients. How supportive relationships play a role in the mental health of neurodivergent individuals. How do we really help clients communicate their needs and why self advocacy is so crucial. We also go into how neurodivergent individuals can self advocate for themselves and also what are some strategies in helping clients unmask and really embracing their authentic selves. So let's dive right in. I just wanted to start off by saying thank you so much for being willing to speak to me and it's such a privilege having you on my podcast so I know I did an intro, but could you tell the audience just a bit more Yourself and just your, why and how this all started and what has got you to where you are today? So basically I started studying fine arts. I've always actually wanted to be an artist in high school and, and before that, so I decided, you know, what if we did art therapy or something like that? Cause I've always wanted to be a helper. And all those, you know Test you do to see what your IQ is and interest and what professions would fit you. I always got social worker or psychologist or counselor, things like that. So that's where I started. And then very, very quickly psychology took over when I started studying, you know, the psychology subjects and the, the bug bit me, I guess afterwards did my honors in psychology at the university of Victoria as well, and started working with children on the autism spectrum. And that's where I really, really, so, okay, this is what I love doing. I love working with children. I love being able to support them. And yeah, so that's where it basically started. I am very much. Always learning, always trying to look at new research and new ways to do things and new ways to connect with my clients. So yes, I'm, I'm very excited to be able to support my clients for just, just celebrate the uniqueness and, and embrace who they are and work that way. And yes, I found a little community in that as well. Amazing. As professionals working in this space, you have to sort of carve your own way. You know, especially with neurodivergent phase, there's no, degree or, this sort of qualified like thing that you can do. And okay, now you're qualified. It's, it's really is about paving your own way. So I mean, like all your qualifications, you know, in play therapy and trauma, and it's just counseling and, I mean, even fine art creates this very, amazing foundation for even like autistic expression, you know, that I know that you bring into your, your counseling. It's incredible. And the work that you do is really incredible and much needed, much needed in South Africa. And when we, we get into, your counseling space, we know obviously creating a supportive environment is so crucial, particularly for neurodivergent individuals and, you being on the spectrum yourself, I would love to get your opinion on, what are some of the strategies that you use to just create this really inclusive and safe and almost a sort of radical accepting environment for, for your Basically, what I do is Is keep in mind what I would want. And of course, I don't represent everyone that's neurodivergent. It's, it's a wide, wide thing. And the spectrum itself is massive. Everyone's different. We all know that. So where I started with seeing what would work for me, I'm a person who struggles immensely with phone calls. I struggle so much picking up the phone and speaking to people and what to say and how much more. All talk you now make before you make the appointments and all of that. So what I really started doing was setting up different ways to even book for a session. I like to have, and WhatsApp available, just send a message, even send a voice note. And I kind of keep that open channel of communication too. So if something happens in your week and you're dysregulated or you need to talk, I have that open line where you shoot me a message or we schedule something quickly over WhatsApp and we check in. That's something I focus on. But then in, in terms of the actual environment as well, I have so many clients who come in and we automatically go and sit on the carpet instead of sitting on chairs, for, for my older clients, the children and teenagers don't always even go for the couch. We just go straight to whatever we're doing today. And then I have my sentry tools and suitors and fidgets and all of that anywhere actually have a lot of clients bring things with so clients who bring their own fidgets to the sessions, clients who bring the, the wool and yarn and crocheting tools and we'll sit and crochet while we speak, or like you said, even with the artistic background that's there. Something I still love. And I've had clients where we just communicate through writing letters to each other or creating artworks, that kind of show other things or show things we can't put into words, and then we'll kind of trade off these, these items. Like we're having a conversation. So. It's really just about the individual person as well. Everyone's needs are different. So whatever you bring, whatever you like doing, I've learned so much about so many different topics and feels just from exploring these with my clients and trying to incorporate this, into whatever we're working on, whether it's, you know, boundaries or figuring out century needs or whatever it is. I like to use those interests, and those talents. I've learned a lot actually, but that's it in a nutshell, I guess, just, just come and be whatever. There's really nothing that's inappropriate in, in my space. So, yeah, I love how you, you're so accepting and you look at the individual in front of you and you're like, what is suited, particularly for this individual, because I mean, every single person on the spectrum they just, they're so different. So, I mean, I love how you say, you learn so much. And oftentimes, professionals, they, they scare to say I don't know this, we, we, we don't, you know, and like you said earlier, that you keep on learning and, and exploring and, navigate and explore different areas that, we weren't taught, in the training that we received or you receive a very one sided or one dimension. Even when you touch on, on sensory friendly spaces, a lot of neurodivergent people are very sensitive to their physical environment. Yes. So, really even adjustments like lighting or, seating like sitting on the floor, to other people, it might sound a bit strange, but it's, it's so needed. Yeah. You know, it's, it's so needed, especially if you're trying to. Work on, on these things and trying to empower a person and teach them to advocate for the need, you know, supporting them through that process. You really need to start with the foundation of allowing it there in the counseling space already. So, I'm trying to kind of set that blueprint of. What you want and how you want to advocate and why, how you want to adjust the environment so you can function, you know, optimally. Yes. Cause at the end of the day, if you are an environment where you you're able to thrive, your possibilities and your capabilities are endless. And then that's something that I think a lot of people don't get. That just by changing the environment, what a drastic difference it can make ease and how much things that you feel like you don't know how to solve or don't know how to manage or work around. And you don't even need to worry about it. You just make these environmental changes and adjust them. And there you go. And you don't have to limit yourself. Even you can get some accommodations and then my clients are so creative. They really know what they need and I'm just there to facilitate and help them realize how to implement those things that they need already. So it's, it's amazing to see. And it's how creative they are and coming up with these accommodations that they need or things that we can do to change the environment. So it's really a collaborative approach as well. We kind of take and give and take. And I think we get the most, progress then as well in terms of seeing people really become themselves, really become authentically who they are. That's what I'm referring to. It's a really rewarding journey. I have to say. Yes. You touched on individuals becoming their authentic self and, I think that the, the concept of masking and unmasking, and, how do you become your authentic self when you are neurodivergent and you're trying to thrive in this very neurotypical world? What are some of the strategies or the tools that you employ that you help individuals? And, you know, I know you work with children, teenagers and adults. So what are some of the things that you do to, to help facilitate this unmasking process? So, where we start always is understanding and kind of unpacking, I would say, where all of these rules about things that are appropriate and what should happen and should not happen and things you should hide, where all of this comes from, basically all the social etiquette, all the rules. And if you, if I work with my clients and we start unpacking them, it's really amazing to see how these are just made up social rules. These norms are just kind of unwritten rules that everybody goes along with and someone made up. So it's not as if it's really natural. It's not as if it's truly, truly inappropriate. It's just these, constructs that have been made up by our societies, communities, cultures, and. If we understand that and I work with my clients to help them see it in all aspects of life, even I remember watching a video on Instagram about a woman who, if I remember correctly, she is also autistic and she was crocheting in a lecture hall. And someone took a video of her and shared it. And I looked at the comments and half the people were saying, you know, this is so disrespectful when someone's lecturing and you're there working on something else. And the other half of the people were like, good for her. You know, she's, she's obviously listening. She's just keeping her hands busy. She it's fine. So half the people saw. It's just a construct that we actually need to sit still and look at the lecture and that's respectful versus, you know, what she's doing is still respectful. She's still listening and she's just, doing something that helps her maintain that concentration and, stay regulated. So. When we actually explore that and we start normalizing on needs. So thinking how, and I see this a lot, this metaphor of you wouldn't tell a diabetic person not to take the medication and just change their behaviors, right? It's the same way we understand these needs, sensitivities, whatever it is. It's just biological. And so if we understand where it comes from, how it works in the body, how our nervous system works, that's really my first step to helping people unmask. I do have to add that unmasking in South Africa can be a really scary process where, people very, very easily jump to, weird assumptions and, and It's very stigmatized to, just walk into pick and pay, for example, and fidget or be stimming or whatever's the case. People really give you a looks or there's a child maybe crying and people already judge the parents whatever for that's not even related, but it's just normalizing and understanding that it is okay to mask sometimes as well, especially if I'm asking someone to contribute to feeling. Even more anxious, even more drained and, and possibly it could even be traumatic depending on the people situation, all of that. So helping listen to your body, do what you need to do, but also. Be safe and, and just try to protect yourself as well. Cause masking is a protective mechanism too. So understanding all of those aspects, but, it's a very complex thing, but that's where we start. And then it's just learning to listen to your needs and in your safe spaces, live out what you want to do without filtering to fit into those norms. I'm so glad that you're bringing up the fact that masking is not always wrong, not always bad, and oftentimes the narrative that is pushed on, on social media is like unmask, unmask, but sometimes it's needed in situations where, if you know, this is your coping mechanism that works for you, you've got to do what you've got to do. You know, and especially in a society that is very, I mean, even around mental health and autism and being in this new space, it's, there's a lot of stigma, a lot of these preconceived notions and, and, and it's not always pleasant, and this is something that I think. It's not spoken about enough and, there's just not enough knowledge and awareness and acceptance around it. So thank you for bringing that up and just normalizing that, it's okay to mask, just trying to unmask all the time when it actually results in like, you know, you actually worse off afterwards. Exactly. I mean, a parent messaged me the other day and she said, when you're speaking about, self advocating and, she said, no, my daughter self advocated and, and, and she was trying to unmask in school and she was wanting all these accommodations and the school literally just turned her down, or just did not. Oh no. Right. Right. Did not, really, they weren't receptive at all to her needs. And, she said like, what must I do? And I said, well, take the child out of the school. The school is not, on that level that, you want your child to, to be in. So, Do you have any other advice for, I mean, even parents or even neurodivergent individuals themselves who, who perhaps, you know, in the school environment or even in the medical landscape, like what do you think they can do to just self advocate for their own needs, especially in the, the climate that we find ourselves in? Yes. Well, one thing that I think about a lot, especially recently is how there's always someone who knows better, right? Or knows more or has more education or has a friend who went through this or a family member. And there's always advice and unsolicited advice coming from all angles. And the one thing that I've recently been thinking about is how. We just have to listen to ourselves. If we recognize, Hey, I need a, some accommodations here. I need support here. I'm trying to, you know, advocate, I'm trying to work with my body instead of against it. And there are people that are limiting you no matter who they are, what their qualifications are, what they say. You're actually the person who knows best. I always try and keep this in mind with my clients as well. One thing that works great for me might not work for them at all. There's no one size fits all. So I want to take that step back and always listen and trust that my clients will know what, you know, what I'm talking about. It's actually best for them. I said earlier, how creative they can be, and even the children, I can do this. So what if we try this? So what do you think about this? And then we'll trial and error and see how these accommodations and things go. But when somebody pushes back against that, and I almost want to use the word dismiss, you know, dismiss those needs, um, and, and say, no, you need to, you need to fix yourself. You need to adjust to the environment. We are not going to allow this instead of having that empathy. Because for me personally, that's what it comes down to just understanding where this person's coming from and understanding why these accommodations and support is needed. Self advocate or move again, change the environment. If that school's not working, if the doctor's not listening, change, And I'm not trying to, to say that to be mean, it's just listen to your body because you know, what's best. And I feel all people deserve that respect, just to be listened to and feel understood. So that's the one thing. And I've actually spoken to my partner about that. This, I think last week, very recently, and he's an engineer, so he's not, um, cleared up necessarily in all the things, but he's very interested in psychology and wellness, and he has ADHD as well. So we understand some of our needs together, I was speaking and explaining to him how even the DSM five way. Autism, is diagnosed out of, and contains all of this information to me personally feel so outdated especially with autism. I actually told him I'm looking forward to the DSM 6 and I'm hoping it would be something completely different to what we're seeing. Because there's been so much growth, so much research, so many people actually standing up and speaking about what they need, what their experiences are. And I really hope that, it's kind of the Bible of all of this, this big document really takes into account in the next edition, all these voices and needs and research. And I'm actually looking forward to see the updated version. I've actually seen a few people speak about it as autism spectrum condition and preferring that term as well. So it sounds like a strange thing to be excited about, but it makes me excited. And especially, when you, we touched on the, on the DSM five now, and the, really it's, it's quite a lot of, deficit based language that they use to describe these conditions. And, if that is what people are basing the knowledge off and they, their own experience, to build from that, if you have that foundation, it's. Really tough to, to try and incorporate a very neurodiverse affirming, um, you know, just the way forward, you know, if we, cause I mean, even looking at South African policies and, we don't have, I mean, if we don't even have policies focused on autism. And that's a problem, so we really have to prioritize policies that recognize neurodiverse affirming practices and celebrate neurodiversity, for us to make any sort of progress. And I just want to touch on. The people are listening who don't know what, neuro affirming neurodiversity affirming means, could you just explain a bit more about what does it actually mean? Because I know this term is it's thrown around a lot and I think people have different perceptions of what it is. So could you just explain just a bit more about what does it mean to be a neurodiversity affirming counselor? What does it mean to have a neurodiversity affirming space? It just comes down to seeing these neurodivergent conditions like ADHD, dyslexia, dyscalculia and autism, all of these brain differences, I would say, as different and normal variations of the human brain, the human body, instead of something, like you said, that's That's just deficits. That's just all of these problems and challenges because it very much has strings, all of these conditions have strings embedded in them and things that might be amazing in certain situations and environments that could actually be helpful. It's not necessarily just deficits. So neurodiversity affirming support in any capacity doesn't look at how any of these conditions are. These things that need to be fixed or cured, and it acknowledges that you. Don't cure or fix these conditions, but you learn how to work with it, how to listen to them, learn to look at what your strengths are and accept that you are in your brain is just a variation of the neurotypical brain, you know, the brain that we see in the majority of people, even though it's interesting to look at research and see how many of us. Are actually neurodivergent. and we're not such a small population after all, but yeah. So not trying to normalize in my support and other neurodiversity affirming support professionals. We don't normalize. We don't try and hide things or fix things. we look at understanding self acceptance, self compassion, and how we can actually use our strengths, even our experiences to just live an amazing life, a fulfilling life, instead of focusing on how some of these traits are problems or focusing on the pathology behind some of these traits. So it's really, about empowering the neurodivergent individual. I think so often for so long autism has been, or, any sort of related condition has always been viewed through such a narrow lens, as a disorder or this disease, it's not something to be cured, and sometimes I hear the most I ridiculous things people reaching out to me and, it's all these myths and, I'm like, no, this is not true. I don't know where you got this information from, but, but also just to say that neurodiversity and, this is something that is not often spoken about, especially in the, in the space is that. A lot of, of parents and neurodivergent individuals, they struggle, I read this quote the other day and it said, autism is not a gift. My child is the gift. And that made me just take a step back. And I was like, wow, you know, for some, it can be a gift, and it is, and it comes with these incredible, ways of thinking. But, but then it also, it does come with debilitating characteristics, you know, and, and I think that is not spoken about enough, where we, people are scared to, to speak out about that because, it's the, the gift is, you know, your capabilities and embracing that it's not discounting that. It's tough. there are challenges. Definitely. And it affects every person differently. I almost want to say people with neurotypical brains, face certain difficulties as well, but with these, of course, they are people with higher support needs than I have. And, I can't speak for them and how it is. Of course, my lived experience is very different. But there are things that make it very difficult, to do things that are supposed to not even cause a second thought, just, automatically do things. And what's so funny is it took me a very long time, even though I've always worked with, in my professional life with individuals on the, on the autism spectrum, for example, to recognize it in myself, just because it's so difficult to see something so close to home and to recognize the pattern in difficulties that you're facing until you take that step back. And actually what happened is my brother started, speaking about certain things and pointing out certain things that he was experiencing. And then I realized, Oh my goodness. So. I've been struggling with this and I just thought it was normal. I just, I described to my husband the other day, how conversations are like chess games where I'm thinking, what's the other person thinking? How are they reacting? What's the right thing to say? What's the right move to make? And obviously it leads to sometimes inauthentic conversations, even though I have amazing intentions. I love. Working with people, I love meeting people and learning about things, but you come across as a bit strange when you're trying to play this chess game and you don't know what to say. And then you say a strange thing out of the blue three times in a row or whatever happens. So. It really comes with challenges and taking that step back to see what they are, I think helps as well. Cause if you see what they are, you can use those that you said, strings to improve on that, um, and learn to manage those things that are difficult. But yes, there are definitely difficult things that come with and. I don't think there's anything that's just a hundred percent good or a hundred percent bad. If I can put it that way, these life was always in the gray area. And like you said, I've also heard such extreme and such. I honestly want to say funny things from parents and clients before that I have no idea where certain things come from. But it's just, once you get to talk to people and share your experience and I listened to their experiences, It really starts to make sense. I think it's just, it's a good to keep that open mind and see how everyone's Brent and how it's a give and take thing. Just to see it for what it is instead of automatically assuming it's a gift to automatically assuming this is horrible. There's something's wrong with my child. Just take it as it comes and yeah, get to know yourself or get to know your family member and learn about the needs. When, did you start having these thoughts? I mean, has this been a long journey? Could you just explain your process and a lot of the times, especially girls, grow up and these traits are often just characterized as normal, and then with boys it's, Oh no, no, you know, it's autism immediately. So what, what has been your experience? And yeah, you're just your own lived, experience of how. You've come to realizations and how long it's taken and even, the diagnostic process, how, how has that whole journey been? I've always been a very weird child. I've always been the very, autistic in high school. I remember thinking, I know I'm the weird article, the weird autistic, Yeah, I just, just don't, I've never really fit in any way people weren't as aware, let's say 20 years ago, I'm turning 28 now, 28 years ago about looking for these signs as I feel like they are now. It's not where it needs to be, but it's, it's come a long way already. And like I said, people look at these very, very external. Overt signs and behaviors and say, okay, that's a problem. This little boy. Is doing this or crying or they're having tantrums or, you know, when it's actually a meltdown or whatever, but they're seeing all of these bigger expressions and recognizing, okay, something must be wrong. Yeah. And that's when in my just experience, the boys and the younger boys have gotten diagnosed or identified as maybe there's something going on that we need to look and support it's been identified quicker and easier. I do have to say, I've always had social difficulties. So even if I had a friend, I would completely take on the personality to be the person they want to be right. And I am a very empathetic person. And that's why I always ruled out autism because I could identify with so many things, but then I would look at that criteria and the DSM on my phone in the middle of the night. And it would always kind of say, you know, okay, there's always this assumption that an autistic person doesn't feel empathy and they don't understand your mind and they can't read emotions. And I've always been extremely interested in social psychology and people. And since a young age, my grandmother and parents, people watch with me. And we go somewhere and I've watched documentaries and high school, I did a, it's kind of like a finishing school class where they teach you how to speak, how to walk, to look confident, all these body language things. And I loved it because I felt powerful being able to understand this, but it never clicked because I have. There's intense, intense empathy. So I thought, no, no way. Then what's so funny is, like I said, it started with my brother, figuring out weights. He has so many of these, ADHD traits and. It's, it's really debilitating for me. It's, it was his first time living by himself that it really started making sense and it became really overwhelming for him, what was going on and his traits. And at first I told him, no, there's no way, even though I see these things so easily and other people and their needs, I couldn't see his because it was too close up. And then when I started paying attention, after he pointed it out, I was like, Oh, how did I never see this? It's so obvious. And yeah, we went on, I started realizing. All of the traits of myself. And I started doing more research, reading more about masking and about how autism presents in lower needs females specifically, and how there are so many of these other women with late diagnoses who described exactly the same feeling, all of this empathy, but having all of the other traits, but feeling. Feeling dismissed, like, no, this I can't, and then discovering this part about themselves. And, I was actually extremely scared to go look for, a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist who could diagnose, because I think it's maybe just that part of the autistic brain as well. I feel like this is how it's done. I should do this. I should go get the official paperwork done. but I was so scared to get that official diagnosis because I was scared of. Sitting there and having a person who hadn't read all of this, who's just looking at the DSM five criteria and then dismisses me and then feeling even more alone and feeling even more. You know, unheard and again, the word dismissed. So, I really looked for people who are clearly aware of the new research and how it presents how autism specifically presents in females, especially if you are extremely high masking, like I am. And I found amazing people. I sent them. I'm so thankful. They have a WhatsApp line. So I didn't have to call and I sent them questions on WhatsApp about, you know, are you aware of this? Do you look at high masking? Do you look at this and this? Because it is expensive as well. So you don't want to go into there and feel embarrassed and like you wasted money. And all of these things are sometimes a lot to think about. And I got. To the right people. So, they actually sent me a little, kind of like a screening to just fill in and see whether it could be autism and so on, and I got the results back and they said, okay, no, we're glad you made an appointment because you scored quite very high on autistic traits. I was like, okay, at least I'm not crazy because you begin to sometimes feel so gaslit, so it, been amazing to learn all of this and. You know how the universe works where you learn about something and all of a sudden you see it everywhere. And so, so many of my clients have started talking about it as well, of similar experiences that I went through in my journey. To start seeing it and seeing them feel so relieved that they're not just a weird person, but now it makes sense. And you know, how to, like we've said, how to advocate and how to help yourself deal with sensory sensitivities and deal with things and understand, for example, with me, Oh, why I've struggled maintaining relationships. Instead of just feeling like a bad person or a bad friend, or like, nobody likes you if that makes sense. So it's been a up and down journey full of education, but I have to say social media in itself opened so many doors to amazing resources and people speaking about their experiences. And, I'm so happy. That's so many teenagers as well on some strange or on social media, but are learning about these things in such an accessible way and that they actually understand what's going on.. I would like to get your, Opinion on now that you have a diagnosis, is, self, diagnosis is self identification valid, especially among girls. Cause I know that is a whole nother topic that get into, do you need a diagnosis and, and even for, I mean, a lot of parents ask me, should I tell my child that they are neurodivergent? Should I tell my child that they're autistic? What advice do you have for, them? I mean, you have that experience. So what would you say to, them? So firstly, to so many of my clients specifically, and I'm thinking about them, I can see their faces in my mind while I'm talking, they don't need. And a lot of them have told me they're not interested in ever getting an official diagnosis. They don't need any other person. Just confirm what they already know. And especially with, I just mentioned those sort of anxious feelings about feeling unheard again. With me specifically, what, what I do and what I'm already working on letting go of is masking so much and saying so much what the person wants to hear in the actual assessment or session or whatever it is that, uh, I could have just stayed at home because I'm not trying to say that I lie, but I'm trying to do, I'm trying to give the right answers. So if you can see those things, recognize them and start advocating for yourself and you don't need that official diagnosis and you don't need it to feel at peace. That's amazing. Besides all of this accessibility is such an issue as well, expressing yourself. Getting a person who's affordable enough, getting the person who has availability. All of this is really difficult in South Africa, especially but if you understand and you know yourself and you recognize these traits, you, identify them and you can start working on empowering yourself. I feel that's, that's it. You don't need anything else. And if these accommodations that you're implementing are working great. So, so that's it. And then. Speaking to a child about autism, I think is something you should do. Always. I don't think it's anything to be hidden. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Like we said, through the neurodiversity affirming lanes, autism in itself, ADHD, whatever the case is, is something you're going to have forever. It's a part of you. It's how your brain works. It's not something you need to be ashamed of. You just need to learn about it. So. Doing that and talking about things openly with your child is perfect. You're normalizing it for them. You're teaching and modeling all of these skills about setting boundaries, about expressing needs, all of these things you can, you know, Teaching from a young age. And because this is quite difficult for parents who don't necessarily have all the words to put everything into it, or don't know how to explain it in an age appropriate way, even, and, you know, even just thinking about something like the, the words executive functioning sounds so intense and large, and now you as a parent have to figure out how to explain this, I've actually looked at some resources and created one as well about. What autism is and the end. Investigating your own support needs. So it's for children, specifically young children to go through their scripts that the parents read. And you can bit by bit, page by page completed and kind of create your own autism wheel where you map out your specific support needs, because. It's really needed to just have a guide like that. It's such an overwhelming experience. And everyone says, you know, tell your child and do this and say this and don't say that. And we really, I feel needed a guy to just do everything in a, in a one stop shop sort of guide and you can read it. It's easy and it's to the point. So I'm always about that openness and normalization. These resources, so I know that you have a happy space at C Shop, but could you just tell the listeners, can they find resources like this and, what, where can they go to, to find these much needed tools? So on my website, I have a little link to my Etsy shop. Research is one of the things I'm also super interested in when I come across a new term on social media, on the internet, I always go and research what it's about, especially if it's related to psychology, social psychology, and so on. And. It was so difficult when I started working to get things that said what I wanted to say, to be very jam packed full of quality information and quality worksheets, not just the basic questions and how do you feel, but really go into it. And so I started creating these resources based on different things that I'm researching. So it's on my Etsy store, A Happy Space Co. And it's a happy space co because originally I started it with my mother as well, who's a remedial teacher. So there are some of her things that pop up there as well sometimes. But Etsy is my best friend. So I have things on my store, but they are also amazing things out there on Etsy, on, on Google, like I've said, high quality things. I feel people are really investing in creating these tools that are actually making a difference. So they're great. I use some of the things I've created. I always include them when I'm working with children. I'll send them a set of cars or we'll make one or whatever the case is. There's so many different things. I think there's around 145 things on my store at the moment. So yes, there's really something you can use anytime. And. I wanted to create fun things, colorful things, easy language, metaphors that kids. Understand Amazing. And, especially for autistic learners, you know, they are very visual learner. So using these tools, can really help with those, just that like brain body connection and processing concepts, a lot easier, than just auditory input the whole time. So, yeah, exactly. And when you, you know, earlier on when we were speaking about how you support clients. And I want to ask you some questions on how do you challenge and explore internalized ableism? So just for the listeners who don't know what this is, it's where individuals, they really internalize negative societal belief, about their disabilities or conditions and. You know, this can really be such a huge barrier to, to wellbeing. How do you explore this with your clients and, from kids to adults, what do you do, to help them process. Okay. I always start again with, with shame, that feeling, even if we don't know what's causing it, we, we can't identify the ableism or the things that we're doing or other people are doing or the situations that are ableist. So coming down and recognizing that feeling first of shame or how you self doubt or when, or how you feel inadequate or who makes you feel inadequate. So again, I start with those emotions and we explore that in whatever way. Client wants to, like I've said, writing, try to associate these feelings with, like I said, situations, people, rules, etiquette, whatever's happening. And that's how I start to, with my clients, identifying them. So internalized ableism is so complex actually, because a lot of it, I feel we're not entirely Of that. It is actually ableist because it's been done. It's, it's just how it is for so long. You know, it's just how the world works or, you know, I've heard so many times as child, the world's not fee, you know, life's not fee. It becomes invisible. So when we start actually paying attention to these feelings and start aligning them with. Certain things that are happening and exploring these beliefs and seeing when someone made this up, or this isn't actually true, you know, look at, let's look at evidence. Where you're managing these negative beliefs and challenging these negative thoughts, or even negative values, about, how you see yourself in the world. You really work from that side. I actually worked, I think it's with 2 weeks ago that I saw her. One of my clients is. Journaling about, these cards are specifically about just journaling about internalized ableism and exploring that and identifying all these ways. That, society is ableist and how we can overcome it, how we can challenge it. And a lot of internalized ableism that I found is also about the people around us, actually educating them, showing them the evidence, pushing it forward and saying, you know, I can do this just because I'm autistic doesn't mean, I don't think you're a person. That's one thing people have asked me. So you don't see me as a person. What do you see me as? And, and such strange things. So just pushing this and educating. I'm so with the individual clients, we'll work on those beliefs and challenging that, and then also validating those feelings because it comes from. You know, all of these beliefs and all of these ways that you think you should feel about yourself and, you know, for other people pushing the education and awareness and honestly, human interaction, if you are a person, getting to know another person who's neurodivergent or whatever the case is, you begin to understand you just have. Have so much more scenes. So that's, that's really spent time with a variety of people. Yes. That's such great advice. I love how you encourage that self reflection, it's such a fundamental step because oftentimes when you sow in our head, if we just self reflect a bit, and creating this greater self awareness and understanding, how other people might perceive you and how you perceive yourself and, using positive affirmations, it's so powerful. And re just reinforcing positive messages, about your client's abilities. And yeah, and that is where the whole concept of, of being neurodiverse affirming comes in, it's, it's just focusing on those strengths and, you gradually shift the self perception. There's a lot of, of weight there. And especially with kids, when you're able to, to really make that mindset shift within them and they're able to grow up and they're able to just develop knowing that, okay, I have these incredible abilities. Is incredible. Mm. I like what you said about that power of positive affirmations as well, and I, I think people always see it as a sort of strange thing that you listen to or you say and, and, but it's so amazing when you start to see how you can incorporate it. So many of us hype ourselves up to music before you need to go do something. And certain lyrics, you just remember and, and there are certain parts of the song you specifically want to hear other, otherwise you restart the song, you know. So these are forms of positive affirmations. These are ways of, I almost want to say single strings and speaking up and practicing, you know, this, this positive affirmation, strategy. So yeah, it's, it's less weird and awkward. I think that people actually see a lot of the time. Yes. And so moving forward for the future of South Africa and, the space. What, what do you wish to, see that you hope to see in the next few years a lot of changes have been happening, especially in the space, but, we still have a very long way to go, what do you hope to sort of envision in the next few years? I think the biggest thing is probably just accessibility of being able to get the support you need, being able to speak to people, being able to learn. And that's why I was so excited earlier when I was talking about social media, because I thought that's one way we can help each other. You know, the actual community can help other members of the community, whoever it And it's, it's so quick and easy to actually do. It's just reaching out to people, for example, and learning on social media, but the big things I think are still large barriers that I've seen or things that I've experienced are especially educational, institutions and. I always sound so strange because when the children complain about certain things, all the teenagers that are happening at school, I'll complain with them and I feel like you're, I might be a bad adult because I'm supposed to, understand how the school works, but there are so many things that could be so much more accommodating, so much more understanding, there are so many ways that the school system itself can be so much more. Inclusive and I don't mean, you know, just throw everyone in the same class and say it's inclusive, but just that thing of training and educators because they're amazing. They really want to learn and things are changing so fast. It's difficult to keep up with. So if we educate them and help them understand, you know, how you can implement these accommodations, how you can support a learner, for example. That's a huge thing that I've noticed that I would like to see just with regards to some of my clients. These there's no, I almost want to say good fix that, you know, the perfect system almost just want to say, be you, be your thing and sickly neurodivergent without something giving some, we either have to sacrifice something in this area or this context or it's just. That's a big barrier for me, finding, finding that place where you can still be a child or a teenager and do all the things, but just have additional support. So that's one thing. And then specifically, and the other thing is just education of the public. So just seeing more workshops, more community based events and things where people actually talk about what autism actually looks like the stereotypical carrier types is understanding what it is, how it is, and starting to recognize the nuances in there. Because there are so many kids that I've unfortunately haven't seen, just heard of from another friend who's an educator, where, you know, kids just don't, their needs don't get met. The, the families and people and other educators maybe don't understand, and a child is labeled as naughty or weird, or I've heard schizophrenic and I've heard multiple personalities. And this child is really struggling. You know, if more people just had the right words, that would make a big difference already. So that's, that's the, those are the biggest things I guess I would want to. See change first, and if I'm not mistaken, so you do offer workshops and, you do talks and you, to create awareness and training, could you, tell the listeners a bit more about that and, how you are sort of facilitating. Change. Yes. So I love, training. I love attending training. I love presenting and developing workshops. And especially when I'm very, very intrigued by something and I'm hyper focused on it, I automatically always start to think how I can explain this to someone else. I think it's because I was raised by a family was curious. So if I would live in something, my dad would always be there. And I would just tell him everything. A to Z every single possible. And he would always listen. So. It's ingrained in me to learn something. How can I explain this to another person? How can I help someone else with this? So every now and again, I do a free talk as well, just like a workshop on zoom. So as many people as possible can just jump in and we'll talk about Whatever the topic is. And it's always something from anxiety to, you know, supporting different needs and sensory sensitivities and regulating the nervous system. Amazing. But, and these are specifically for parents. So the parents can come in and ask questions and learn a bit more and identify needs. So if they see. Somewhere where they want some support from a professional, they know where to go, what to ask for. and then I've also done workshops for other professionals in how to be support clients, for educators in how to, facilitate, a neurodiversity affirming environment or how to actually do this. And yeah, so. Every now and again, it's, it's pretty much a bit random. I want to say if I feel, if I hear there's a need, I'll implement a workshop and I'm very quick at organizing it. So I always post it on my social media and so on and on groups and put out a few ads. But it's, I'm very much in love with training as well, because the more people know, like I've said, the better we can actually support, there's not one person who can help and support everyone everywhere. So the more people, you know, the more people we can reach and that's what it comes down to. Yes. Just helping other people succeed, helping other neurodivergent kids succeed in different environments because, as a therapist or a counselor or an educator, you only see the child for a certain amount of time in the day and the rest of the hours in the day, the child's at home. And, you know, perhaps the parents, they don't have the skills there. They don't know what to do. they don't know how to set up a home environment that is really suited to the child's needs, or at school, so, so if you see a child, a few hours a week, the rest of the time, you need a whole team and you need this collaborative effort where you can. Everyone is on board and there's consistency, because otherwise, our work is sort of futile where, you know, you can't be this, magician where you can change a house life in an hour. So, so that's really, really needed. And then you mentioned your social media. So if, parents or anyone wants to reach out to you, where can they find you? Where are you based? Could just tell the other listeners a bit more about how can they, how can they get in touch with you? Of course. So the best way. And the, the way that I prefer is literally just send me a WhatsApp, send me a short voice note, send me a message. And the reason I said, I prefer this as we can really talk so you can let me know what your needs are, what your worries are. And I really like. Like I've said, everything is so individual and unique. Every person is so unique that I like hearing about what your needs are, what your background, what the context is, and answering questions. Sometimes a person just has a question and I have to book a session, all of this. And you have one question, you're unsure about one thing. So I want to Advocate for that accessibility through my practice as well. So send me a WhatsApp, it's, it's on my website as well. You can also find a lot of resources there. It's www a happy place. And then it's quite confusing because the counseling services are a happy place. And then the resources, Etsy is a happy space, so it's very, uh, I should have kept it the same, but here we are years later, in any case. And then. My social medias as well. A happy place. Z A. Just cause I found this actually worldwide. A few practices with a happy place. So it's quite a popular name. It seems. So just look for the Z A, so reach out. I always love connecting with people. It's the one thing I do with my clients as well. There's There's feedback and parent guidance throughout the week between sessions. So if something happens or you're trying to do something that we talked about and it's not working, or if there's a crisis coming up, I like to keep that line of communication open because like you said, it's really the best way to support a child. I don't have a magic wand. I can do so much, but at the end of the day, it's you or it's your family and you can make the biggest impact. So, Yes, my line is always open and it works that way for me. It, it's just the best. Cause especially, people are busy, we have so many things going on that, just communicating over WhatsApp is just, it's so quick and easy, you're not filling out forms or booking appointments. It's just so accessible. Which, is, which we have been speaking about is needed so much more, just that accessibility of services and information that, everyone can get access to. So, yeah, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate it. It was such a honor and a privilege having you. Thank you for all of the info and wisdom and just your, your own perceptions and opinions that. That you brought. Thanks for, for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. I think it was such an interesting conversation just about all of these topics that have been very relevant the last, a few months and years, especially, and it's been growing so much. It's, it's always exciting to chat with someone about it. And. If you missed any of LC's, social media handles, I will leave the link down below that you can access and that you can connect with her at any time. You have been listening to the NeuroNurture podcast. Remember to subscribe. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please leave a five star review. This will help other autism families find podcasts like this to help them navigate the world of autism and neurodiversity. Until then, take care and celebrate neurodiversity in all its forms.