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Welcome to the neuro nurture podcast, dedicated to equipping and supporting families, navigating the world of autism and neurodiversity. I am your host, Kirsten Sullivan, who is on a mission to help autism families go from surviving to thriving. Welcome to the show. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the neuro nurture podcast. Today. We have a really exciting episode featuring a special guest Tanika and she's the owner and practitioner at kind connect. A pediatric biokinetics practice in Jo'burg. So just to give you a bit more background, she obtained her bachelor's in biokinetics from the university of Jo'burg, and she's currently pursuing a master's of science in medicine, and she brings a wealth of knowledge and experience. Having worked with children in sports for nearly a decade, she draws from her background as a provincial hockey player and her experience with various sports throughout her childhood. Passionate about the benefits of early movement and muscle development, she aims to help neurodivergent children inspired by her own experience with ADHD by using movement as a fun and effective way to heal. So welcome. Thank you so much for being here. And just before we get into it to kick things off, could you share just how you got into biokinetics and specifically working with children? Thank you so much for having me. So funnily enough, I actually went into biokinetics, more from the direction of being an athlete. My final two choices were actually biokinetics and fine art. So they were very like, like world apart. But inevitably I went into biokinetics from the intention of kind of going into sport, going to sports teams and yeah, very quickly really love the chronic side of the degree. And then yeah, kind of with my history, having worked with kids and just really it being such a passion project. I effectively through the work we did at uni, as well as just my experience coaching, I kind of met the two in the middle and wanted to focus in a pediatric space. So yeah,. Amazing. And for those of the listeners who might not be familiar. So, what exactly is Biokinetics in a pediatric context. So biokinetics as a profession is effectively, I mean, we break it down, I think in our first ever lecture, bio meaning life and kinetics being movement. So it's effectively life through movement. And the whole approach is using exercise as the, A therapeutic modality to heal, whether that be working in supporting chronic conditions, or whether it be rehabilitation post op or injury, or whether it's yeah, specifically working with developmental, Working with children developmentally. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a very broad spectrum and quite a big scope. And the pediatric component is we actually do a section called pre motor behavior and we go into the details of childhood development and milestones and how we kind of get to that point of movements. Through our years. And as well as obviously by nature of the degree, we have quite a big focus on biomechanics. And so as a kind of biokineticist that's focusing in a pediatric area again, the range is quite large, but we can help with developments, movements supporting neurodivergence through exercise, supporting chronic conditions through exercise. Muscle strength, posture, and get correction. And yeah, again, supporting your chronic neurological and developmental conditions. So it is, it's quite a big, quite a broad area, but yeah, particularly a pediatric focus in biokinetics is quite uncommon. So Yeah, it's a bit new and it's a bit different to maybe what people might instinctively know or really know is by kinetics. But yeah, that's what I do. That's kind of my approach. And I find it especially fascinating, you know, you mentioned even working with neurodivergent kids and how it can be particularly beneficial for kids with autism. With ADHD, autistic kids, and especially when it comes to neuroplasticity and what we spoke about last time, when we had a little chat and how these activities can really strengthen neural connections and improve coordination and even when it comes to motor planning, you know, and I think that a lot of people, a lot of parents, they're not really educated or don't have a lot of knowledge on the specific work that You do, so when it comes to the difference between what you do, and let's say, for example, an OT, so we know that there is a lot of overlap with what you do and what OTs do, but could you provide a bit more info on. What it is specifically that. You do and and how biokinetics and pediatric biokinetics, how can that help? If a parent is. Sort of searching for answers or searching for what professional they should take the child to. Absolutely. So, I mean, kind of touching on what you said about the support for neurodivergent children. One of the areas that we do kind of I mean, I wouldn't say forget about, but we don't focus on as much as kind of the body's impact or neurodivergence impact on the body. And how that can really affect a child at a young age, but also in the future. I mean, we know there are quite a few comorbidities that are associated with Neurodivergence that do affect connective tissue that affects like you said, motor planning proprioception, which is understanding where your body is in space. And, and so kind of working in those areas and, and focusing in on them, what most like reverse engineer and support those issues that are there. And While doing that, we're also able to sort of help that mental development take place and, and kind of, like you said, the neuroplasticity and connect those dots kind of from the body side, rather than just the mind side, if that makes sense As you said there is quite a large overlap between OT and biokinetics. And I think even pediatric physiotherapy, I think the second we kind of drop into that pediatric space, there is a lot of overlap and yeah, maybe less because of Instead of the defined clear sections, there's just so much integration happening on so many levels with children, you, you can't just focus on your little niche, your little spectrum. So there is this sort of overlap that happens and kind of as you do your CPDs and your extra courses, and you kind of integrate multiple. Knowledge bases into your practice. But the easiest way and the way I try to explain it is biokinetics is all body focused. We are focusing on how to apply the tools and, you know, sensory integration motor planning Processing through the body and the body alone. We're not stepping into the area of kind of reading, writing focusing in on what a lot of your educational psychologists or OTs would maybe focus on. We are specifically looking at the physical approach. So as much as maybe an OT and a bio might do similar activities here and there, Our focus points may be different. And that's sort of the easiest way to explain it. Does that kind of cover what you're, what you're looking for? Yes, definitely. And I think just by the information that you provided, it, I think it, it'll help so many parents make that decision between. What does my child need? And choosing the appropriate professional, because when a lot of parents and they get this diagnosis, whatever it is, or they, they go and see a lot of professionals, they're often in the dark of who to go see what their child really needs. So providing a lot more clarity on that and a lot more awareness, I think can really help a lot of professionals and even teachers. You know, if teachers pick things up in school and, it can really help and foster child's development. Even when it comes to physical activity and mental health, how regular physical activity has shown to have such a profound impact on mental health. And I mean, even reducing symptoms of anxiety and depression and stress. And we know that these. Symptoms are very prevalent in a lot of neurodivergent kids. So, when they experience heightened levels of anxiety, providing them with these skills to move their body in the appropriate way, and to, to really help them to develop these skills can help release all of these good endorphins and, natural mood lifters and yeah, it can contribute to a lot more like positive outlooks and emotional stability. Absolutely. I mean, and I mean, adding on to that a lot of the time again, not always, but it is reasonably common that Neurodivergent children, when they do go play sports, even if they are talented, they're deemed as disruptive or they deemed as problematic, or they are completely averse to exercise or sports because it does add that extra pressure. And what I'm trying to create is effectively a safe space to outlet in that way that they feel the need to really, really child led. And again, in a space where they can't fail. You know, they can't, they can't outwardly be then selected or pushed down a team or bumped up a team or whatever that is they're in kind of a safe bubble where they're able to express and they're able to kind of feel their body, get to know their body, trust their body with, the, correct support from a professional that's able to align them and make sure that what they're doing a, isn't going to hurt them further in the future and be that their activities are really focusing on what they need to develop And in the age appropriate range. So it's kind of a win win. And, and like you said, that activity creates that neural cascade of positive, like energy, mood, lifting, et cetera. And I mean, the, the aim is effectively that by the lead, by the time they leave the session, you know, they're a bit, a bit tired and physically fatigued so that they can go home and maybe You know, spend the time with mom and dad and maybe be a bit more downregulated. And again, at the end of the day, the parents, parents of some of these kids are as much as they're working and doing stuff themselves. They also need they also maybe need a break every now and a bit of time. More regulated. And so trying to, you know, send them home a bit, not burnt out. That's the wrong word, but a bit. I think you are just meeting the essential couple. Yes, exactly. And I mean, just on the topic of, of central integration, you, I know you mentioned their body awareness and balance and even like tactile senses. And I mean, all of that is incorporated in the sessions that you, you do, and especially in helping these kids navigate their environments and. By including this, they are leaving the session regulated and they can go home and just be completely regulated. Because even when it comes to to discipline and, that routine and discipline and the impact that the structure activities that you do, how that. Plays on enhancing their discipline because when we, when we, you know, when you instilling this routine and especially for neurodivergent kids, they may struggle with changes in routine. You know, these are regular sessions can really provide this predictable structure and this can really, enhanced ability and they feel more secure and focused. And while they're moving their body and they're getting all of this input. It's just a, a win win situation. Absolutely. And I mean, you know, it's also, it's also creating one of those spaces. I mean, I remember kind of growing up, I was undiagnosed until about 21 and, after school, after spending the day doing what I was doing, you, you kind of come home in the slump because you've been masking the whole day or you've been, Just like kind of so much inputs and kind of working your way through the day. And especially for neurodivergent children, my aim is almost to create a space where they don't have to mask and they can just entry seek run around like and burn off some of that frenetic energy that might be held in while they're sitting all day at school. And that again, it, it fills that sensory cup and I mean, from a perspective of children that are vestibularly seeking, they might not have those facilities at home where they're able to kind of get that amount of energy out without potentially causing a bit of friction in the home or friction in their space. And on the other side, children that are vestibularly sensitive, I mean, that is something that's. Especially with early intervention, we do want to work on a little bit because movement is a part of life. They're never going to be able to, you know, we can put on noise canceling headphones and we can try and manage, you know, sound or taste or texture, but movement is kind of Uncontrollable. It's going to happen. And so kind of create a little bit of, of tolerance built into that space is also really important. That simple daily activities isn't becoming this overwhelming stressor. It's it's just understood, you know, if that makes sense. Yes. And when you incorporate movement daily, it can even reduce unwanted behaviors. You know, and we often make that, that sort of correlation between movement and the behavior of a child. And it's so important because quite often, you know, if there are, if you're providing them with all of these. Like even heavy work and, if they do have a central profile where they crave this, you know, where they crave squeezes or they crave that input or it's, it really, really helps them just. In the real world. And essentially what you're doing is you're providing them with these tools that they can take and they can use it throughout their life. Where they know if they are feeling a bit dysregulated can maybe I need to engage in some sort of movement to just central my nervous system again, and I can, you know, I can actually deal with the daily demands because it's tough, you know, like, Going out there and, and especially if you're neurodivergent going out there in a neurotypical world, it's, you know, you, you're going to be hit with a lot of challenges and it, it takes a lot more effort to engage and remain regulated. And you mentioned just your own experience with A DHD, and I wanna just unpack that a bit more. So, you know, you mentioned, so you, you have a very special place in your heart for neurodivergent kids, and this is. Due to your own experience with ADHD. Now, I know you touched on it a bit, but could you just share a bit more about how your personal experience. Influences your work. Absolutely. I mean for me, you know, I kind of grew up and I think as far as a lot of neurodivergent children had it, I inadvertently was raised in a way to support me, I mean, subsequently we found out that my dad and my mom are both neurodivergent Diagnosed neurodivergent. So it's also been fantastic from that perspective is, you know, they inadvertently sort of did what worked for them or advised for what worked for them. On the other hand, you know, kind of growing up, although I did well at school, I was one of your, you know, as your poster child for unidentified ADHD in girls I did really well at school. Was super sporty, super involved. But while all that was happening, there was this internal monologue of, there is something wrong with me. There's something wrong with me. I don't know what it is. I'm different. People don't get what I'm saying. They don't understand me. And I mean, not, Not just from your sort of teenage perspective of like, nobody knows me and I'm completely isolated sort of thing, but really on a, on an intrinsic level of like, what is wrong with me? You know? And yeah, sort of getting that diagnosis was, was like a weight was lifted. It was like, Oh, I can give myself grace. I have, I have a moment to breathe and understand where it comes from. For me, it wasn't like a excuse now for, you know, What if, and I think very seldom it actually is for children. But yeah, kind of understanding, you know, when we, when you work with a child, that's maybe noise sensitive. I understand that because I am, and it's, it's really on a intrinsic level, being able to connect with the child, knowing that. What they're feeling beyond just trying to empathize and it, and it does, it does really help because you're not the different person. You're the person that's the same as them. You're a part of that same tribe of people that struggles with similar things. And it really does allow some of that insights. And I mean, what you, what you said about the craving depression, I mean, that was totally me as a child. I sat, I am sat, I W sat any position I could be that I was like deep in my hips, feeling that pressure. I sucked my thumb until I was eight years old, which kind of aligns self soothing, self regulating. I mean, it's, it's such an interesting thing because intrinsically as young, young children, we know how to regulate ourselves using our body. And yet, as we kind of grow up in this world that isn't designed to allow us to do that We step away from that and we start to use other tools which are fantastic and, and are more socially acceptable. But there are so many ways in which physically we can, we can really help that self-soothing and management in a way that's not gonna exacerbate other issues. I mean, you did touch on the looking for heavy work or pressure. Children often will which is wset as I said, which is actually. A problem in terms of musculature development, and we know it leads to a weak core and weak group medias. We know that it causes these issues. So we're able to almost replace one behavior with another body focused behavior, I mean, if it is going to affect the child long term. As much as self soothing is important, we don't want them to do it in a way that's going to. Mess with their physiology or their functioning. And I mean, for me again, tying it back to myself is growing up. I was a student athlete. I was a young athlete and I mean, I had massive injuries consistently in my kind of adolescent years because I had very weak glutes and a very weak core and I mean, that's classic of your neurodivergent kid that hangs on their joints for deep pressure. Maybe a correlation there. I mean, we can't kind of go back and say for sure, but I do believe that there really was. Yeah. Yeah. And you just, you having that lived experience of, even when you mentioned the, the auditory processing, that you know what it is like to experience noise levels, maybe a level 10 that other people experience on a level two and don't have that experience. It's really tough to try and relate. Even empathize, especially in the school environment, you know, I, I often see it where kids really struggle they can't really understand why the child is perhaps acting out or running out the classroom and it's just an auditory processing thing. A lot more awareness is needed but just that little example, that you have that experience. So you're able to perhaps approach your therapy from a different angle compared to someone who doesn't have that, that experience. And you touched the importance of early movement and muscle development. Thank you for your time. And, you know, specifically when, when you were younger, you obviously, you noticed that can you elaborate a bit more on why is that so crucial for a child's future and their wellbeing and their overall development? Why is this early movement and muscle development so important? So, I mean, from a, I mean, from a education or bonding or attachment perspective, we always speak about those first two years and how vital they are. And, and which is absolutely true. But I mean, you know, we do, we have all those markers for those first years. Like when did my baby roll over? When did they lift the head? Can they sit by themselves? Those sort of markers or points of, is my child strong enough to. Be their age effectively continue on well on into the, you know, kind of toddler years through to the Childhood years and I mean the main Reason why it's such an important thing is at the end of the day children Especially from a childhood perspective, children are humans are social, and you are inevitably going to be spending time with other children and doing activities and being active. And if you are not, if you're suffering from kind of a low muscle tone, or if you are inevitably weaker or haven't hit those milestones, you're going to drag behind, you're going to be left out. You're not going to be associated in that group. Group that's moving. And I mean, that has huge psychological effects of a child that maybe is already not fitting in exactly because of the mental or the kind of neurodivergency or whatever that might be, but now physically they can't fit in either. I mean, that could be an end, right? That could be a way in which they kind of connect with their peers. Like I said, for me, sport was, it allowed me to not be, you know the strange kid, it, it gave me a space, a space in school. And I mean, from that, that future development, we can set those, those muscle groups and, and build that strength so that the child is actually able to grow up functional from a physical point of view. I mean, you know, we, we know from a from a biomechanical point of view, that skeletal muscle is the muscle of longevity. I mean, it's, it's the way that we live in this world, move in this world, the way our metabolism functions, it's such an important aspect of existence. And yet it is, it really is overlooked. And You know, we sometimes focus so much on, you know, all the peripheral stuff that the body allows us this, this beautiful space to give a child a one up on the world, you know and, and it really gives a child the space to be able to. Be strong, be capable, play with their friends grow up in a space where maybe, you know, they might not be the best sportsman, but they can at least keep up with the group. They don't shy away from those opportunities. They don't hide away from activity. It becomes a point at which they can find connection. And I mean, Yeah, that's a really big point above and beyond, you know, just the baseline needs for muscle strength and functionality and mobility and all those sorts of things that people generally know, understand. I think it's, it's so much more than that. I love how you touched on, you said word connection, especially, especially group physical activities, it offers such an excellent opportunity for, for kids to develop social skills. And, through a lot of team based activities and exercises, this is also often overlooked. A lot of neurodivergent kids, they, they do prefer to do activities by themselves. And obviously, you know, that has to be fostered. But when it comes to, to group activities, and really navigating the social dynamics, I think, These experiences are invaluable for, for teaching kids, social skills and understanding social cues and building friendships. And when they have that skill of being able to move their body and they feel confident and, they're able to, to navigate and they're able to run correctly, or they're able to, develop their throwing skills or anything like that. They feel part of something, and this fosters that social development and, and, and friendships. And, it all has this knock on effect. So, so I see the point of when you start early and you can intervene at an early age, you're really able to close those, those gaps. Yeah. I mean, I mean, one of the things that constantly come up is, oh, you know, my child's so clumsy. Yeah. They're so clumsy, they're so clumsy, you know, like, you know, they can't do this and they can't do that. And I mean, is your child clumsy or do they not understand their body in space? Is your child clumsy or are they struggling with kind of a depth perception issue and, and managing, Always your child just, you know struggling through a growth spurt and you know, not managing to, to understand that their body's a little bit longer or a bit bigger or whatever that is. And you know, we, We look at these sort of things in the child's labeled as clumsy and that's it. So they are now a clumsy kid and they will grow up a clumsy kid and they'll never be sporty. And they'll just go, Oh, I'm so clumsy. And it's like a self prophesizing problem. If we notice a child, and I don't mean like your generic sort of. You know, bump into something here and there, like young children who are developing would do. I mean, that is totally normal. If a child is consistently incapable of doing things that again, among their peers, other children are really managing. You know, you start to go, okay, maybe we have a deficit here. Maybe there is an issue that needs to be addressed that, as you said, if corrected at a young age can actually be dealt with. entirely, something like prop perception or balance. We work with that. With a young child, that's not a problem. That's gonna follow them, Yes. It, it's gonna be able to be managed from a young age. And as they grow, they will now have the, you know, neuroplasticity and, and, and skillset to be able to know better and, it's one of the things that we actually can control lifelong. You know, it's not like pure neurodivergence. It's not a thing. It's in any way, why would we want to, but aspects we can help and, and really which is fantastic. I know another one on that is postural issues. We see it a lot postural issues in children are really, they do have lifelong effects. If we're not walking properly or running properly at six years old, you're not going to ever run properly. Yeah, I always, I always joke that you know, if my child's not sporty, they're just not going to be sporty, but they're going to at least be able to run properly. You know, cause that's just the bare minimum and they should be able to, they might never be a phenomenal sports person and that's totally okay. But to be able to give them the best opportunity to do so, that's what it's about. And like you said, the connection of life lessons that come out of sports. I mean, I cannot tell you how often I say that for me, in my experience, sports has been a microcosm for the macrocosm that I lived. And those little life lessons, those little failures that we have to overcome the dealing with a conflict situation Growing through disappointment it's just such an important part of life. Even if your child's not the top sports person, this can be trying to make the D team when you're in the seat in the, this doesn't have to be at the top tier, but giving them that opportunity to be a part of that, rather than shying away from it is again, it's going to teach them life lessons that are going to stand them in a great step for the rest of their life. So. And that's also what it's about. You know, it's not about being the best. We're not trying to foster children that are going to be Olympic athletes at six years old. That's not what we're focusing on here. And then again, I mean, from a, from a sort of connected perspective, we do have this push of professionalizing children really, really young Which personally, I don't really align with but if you are trying to send your child for extra coaching et cetera, maybe looking into, you know, someone like me, who's going to work with them from a physiological point of view and a biomechanical point of view that will improve their sports, but not necessarily make the growth and development one dimensional a Kind of full body growth is, is also a thing worth considering you know, That's a topic that's spoken about, you know, that, that pushing, pushing kids at a young age. And even if, even if a child is super talented in a certain sport and they have a really bright future, I think when it comes to navigating that, there's quite a fine line between how much you push and how much freedom you give the child. And where do you draw that line? Yeah, huge. I mean, it, it is, it's a very tricky, it's a very tricky space because some would say that that's what it takes to be, a top notch athlete. And, and some would argue that, you know, by the time the child's old enough to choose, they won't choose the sport, which is a real thing. Yeah. But. You know, I do believe that, that starting kids early is important, but again, it's not about being the best. It's about, I mean, the more sports you do at a young age, the more integrated muscle strength you're going to have. And that's where we say, you know, you don't want the child to do one sport and kind of professionalize in inverted commas tomorrow you want them to have the best base to go off from. And that's where maybe if you do see a potential pushing a child to do something like biokinetics or kind of support their physical development from a holistic point of view, is that. Really important because that'll prevent injury in the future. We also have to, I mean, we have to take in the consideration of that cognitive and emotional health and the needs of a child, not just looking at the physical side. And I think when it comes to, you know, I'm a huge advocate for holistic approach, you know, I don't believe there's this one size fits all. Specifically when it comes to neurodivergent kids and, and I think what you do is you offer this holistic approach, so you address the physical, the cognitive and the emotional needs of, of a child. And I think integrating movement with these therapeutic practices. You can really enhance your child's brain development, their social skills, their emotional needs, and just an overall, like, balanced, balanced development. instead of focusing on one single aspect, and this is also the problem that I see a lot these days is, just focusing on, on one deficit inverted commas that the child has, or one of their vulnerabilities. And even if they strengths do lie, like you said earlier, you know, you were a start academics, but what was actually going on internally, so a lot of times people just push that by the way. Oh no, she's fine. Academics. There's nothing to, to really intervene, but actually perhaps those areas should really be considered when working with a child, I don't want to know how that, how young children start to learn to mask. I mean, how to play the role and whatever that role is for, for your mom, for your dad, for your friends, for your coach, for your, you know, whatever that is, you play whatever role you need to play. Yeah, to foster that connection and feel accepted. And, and I mean, that is, it's just so hard. And you become a master masker and you step out of that. And then all of a sudden you realize that you're spending so much executive function being this person rather than doing what you need to do in a day. And it's a, it's a lot to unlearn, you know, it's a lot to kind of go back and unravel. I mean, just to go back is that we sort of touched on was that body regulation and, and body management. I mean, one of the things, even for your, your listeners is, the choice of movement, depending on what you need is actually really important. If you are feeling overwhelmed and upregulated. We actually looking for deep pressure. So maybe a cycle on a, on a watt bike with a really high resistance will actually help bring you back down rather than run that's going to keep elevating you. And on the other side, you have that feeling of, I just don't want to get out of bed and I'm struggling and you know, you're really unregulated feeling really low. That's exactly when you need to get up and go do something and kind of use Body as the tool to move, you know, go for a walk, go for the run, go for get the body moving, get the blood flowing. Cause that's going to upregulate you. That's just like a little, a little touch that the viewers can apply to their own life, but also, kind of look at their kids and identify what they struggling with or what they need and support them. we, as practitioners spend however much time A week with the kids. And I mean, I'm a very big believer that educating the parents and teachers to be able to apply some of the same stuff you do again for that, that sense of repetition firstly, and secondly, the routine is that's what we do at our session. And that's also what we do at home. And that's also what my teacher tries to do at school. And, and so we're actually able to foster that. Kind of discipline and understanding and, and kind of deep, intrinsic knowledge base in, in the child. And even following through with that consistency, you know, I love how you will bring the parents in and educate them and provide them with the tools to go home and their child with what you've been doing in the session. To really promote that consistency and it's, it's really a integral part of their development. when you work with them for a few hours a week, it's the rest of the time at home, you know, what do they do then that really makes that difference. And when we, when we think about just advice for parents and educators, what is one piece of advice that you would like to give to the, the listeners and whether it's parents or educators or caregivers, professionals working with kids, sure. I think a few things spring to mind, but for me, the first one is like movement. Movement is King, like, you know, a child growing up with the space to move and to do. And I mean, you know, again, I say this often. It's not always. An option, not everyone has the, the, the sort of luxury of being able to live in a house with a garden. Not everybody has necessarily the extra room as a playroom. Not everybody has those sort of luxuries. Not everybody can have, you know, a stay at home parent. Lots of the time, parents are both not available, but being able to create a space where a child is able to move and, and, and, and, and, and, and, You know, even if that is putting a few activities together where they're able to run around and jump and crawl and climb and, you know, creating that space, creating games that are not necessarily just kind of phone or board or whatever focus, but like, okay, cool. Let's play tigers and like crawl around the house and climb over things and create that make believe fun space that involves movement is just, it's just such a vital thing for, your teachers that can integrate as much movement into the class get them up, get them, get them involved because. It just firstly, it helps them grow. It helps them be, be stronger as individuals. But like you said, from that regulation perspective, from that energy burning manageable child perspective, it really just does help so much. I mean, one of my favorite little tips for teachers is if a child's being disruptive and they are frustrating, and, and starting to create that. Distraction in the class, ask them to run with their hands against the wall, run as fast as you can against the wall for like two minutes. Give them two minutes, just put their hands against the wall and run as hard as they can. Please make sure their hands are actually firmly on the wall. Just as a aspect of that. But. It creates deep pressure. It allows a lot of that energy out. It's, it's, you know, let them sprint against the wall. And I promise you the child will be just so much more manageable. The after they'll also be a bit tired. That's, and again, I mean, that's not just for teachers. That's anyone, anyone can do that or ask their child to do that. And it becomes a fun thing. I mean, the kids start to ask for it. Ooh, can I push the wall? And it, and it kind of just feeds that need, especially children who are, who are showing a need for pushing, maybe pushing on the children, pushing furniture around. It feeds the need, it feeds the need for the inputs, it helps us with deep pressure. And it also, I mean, to an extent it is a bit pro perceptive as well. So it really is a fantastic little tool. It'd be my, my best little tip. And even for kids who perhaps are more, they go into that shutdown mode, they feel, but sort of either sad or tired. I mean, that could also be, you know, not just the disruptive side, but sometimes we see kids, you know, if they're sitting there and they just go into the shutdown mode as a way of coping, doing something like that can really alert their senses and get them to, to a much more regulated stage. And if they're feeling frustrated, I mean, if I'm dysregulated, if I'm having like a sensory overwhelming day or there's a lot going on, I mean, as an adult, I find it so difficult not to outburst. I'm an adult. I should be able to, wouldn't be able to, you know, and, and I find it difficult to sometimes bring myself back to baseline and regulate. I can't imagine how a younger child might be struggling with that in that moment, And so it, it, it works a fantastic way. I mean, we, you know, sometimes you just want to, sometimes you just want to like exploded the world when you're frustrated or angry or shutting down. So yeah, being able to push a wall and really get that. it's, it's a kind of like a physical version of screaming into a pillow. It's to save space to express that need. So that's a fantastic, yeah, I totally agree with you on that. And in what you mentioned earlier with the, that snippet of advice that you gave, I absolutely love how you say that you don't need These fancy toys, you don't need fancy equipment. You don't need a lot of money. You don't have to put a lot of money into helping your child. You can do things. You can do activities with minimal equipment or no equipment at all. And that is very powerful. You know, it doesn't take a lot of time. It doesn't take a lot of initiative. It's just allowing your child that space. To do what they have to do and to move in ways that make them feel good. you touch on, you've picked something your kid likes and, you know, whether it be dinosaurs or trucks or whatever, and, and just, you know, run with it and yeah, I mean, you know, it is, it's expensive to have children. It's expensive to, to live as a normal person in today's world. And yeah, I think, I think there's just such a, there's such a, maybe a, this is maybe a bit off topic, but we do have this. Tendency to over consume and buy everything. And I mean, I have a, I have a cat and, you know, it's that stereotypical thing of, I buy you a toy and you want to play in the box, you know? So really, really using what you have instead of spending that excess. And if you're going to spend and buy things, you know, be specific and be really strategic in what you're doing. And Yeah. Like if you're going to buy a tool, a toy, I know you suggest so many fantastic items that like, you know, really do serve a purpose beyond just being fun for five minutes, they're actually going to be really valuable. And I think that's, that's also an aspect, you know, like if you're going to spend the money on something, let it be something really valuable. The availability of many practitioners in many different spaces and choosing what's right for your kid. I think a huge aspect of that, again, especially with neurodivergent children is that the, that the child connects and that they're able to really, really gel with them to be able to get those. Positive outcomes is so important you know, cause you can have a great practitioner and a fantastic kid and you can just kind of butt heads and not really be able to be in that point, whereas you can, and, and struggle through, whereas you can find others that, you know, instantly click easy peasy and really start to see positive. Impact. So that's another thing that needs to be considered. It's not just about who's close by and who's supposedly fits what you think. It's also about, does your kid connect with that practitioner? That is so important. I know I've had a lot of parents who message me and ask me for help. And they, they say, well, I don't think my child is really jelling with This professional and, you know, it's like, what do I do? You know, I'm spending this money, but my child is not enjoying it. No matter what the practitioner is, is implementing. And I've also had cases personally like that with myself in the past. And there comes a point where perhaps you're not that best fit for your child. Perhaps your child needs something else. Perhaps they need a different environment. Perhaps they maybe have to not engage in any therapy for a few months. And stick to just one thing. So it's, it's also a case of, like you've mentioned is really, does that child connect with the professional? Because before connection, I mean, if there is no connection, no skill development can happen. Just There's definitely there's definitely no one size fits all. And I think what's, I think what is sometimes a bit hard, like from a practitioners perspective is if you don't gel with the kid or it's almost a, you know, it's. It's, you also you know, it's not about you being a bad practitioner or them, it's not about, it's not an attack on your abilities, but like no connection, it's not going to be any growth. You can be the best at what you do. And that's, I mean, that's hard, especially when you're trying or you're, or you're hoping you, you know, you really want to do the best by that child. And that's where kind of, referrals were really important. So And I know in our space, we don't always see it enough. But yeah, referrals are really important thing. If you're just not seeing that, that progress or if, you know, there is a benefit out there. I mean, you said earlier OT and bio, they have a big overlap and you know, maybe if a child isn't gelling with the school OT I know. Practitioners, if they've been working with them extensively and you're not seeing any progress, then look, look a bit broader, take a step out of that, that space. 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And it's tough when they're. Are not enough professionals, firstly, perhaps in, in your area or professionals that you think your child will gel with. It's very tough for parents to try and navigate that, where, where do I send my child, for how long. What type of therapy is even the best for them, you know, and it's all trial and error, I tell parents often it's, you have to try things even with strategies, you know, you, you have to try a lot of different tools, a lot of different coping mechanisms before you find what works for your child. But as soon as you find what works, stick with it, you know, run with it and then go all in. But to get there, it takes time. Just to, to share with the listeners, if they want to find you on social media where can they find you? How can they get into contact with you? What is your Instagram handle? Are you on any other platforms? How can, how can they contact you? They want to connect. So I am on so my practice, as you said in the beginning, it's called kind connect with two K's. It is my Instagram handles at kind underscore connect. And then on Facebook, I'm also kind of connect. Instagram Facebook is kind of connect and then I'm also on Google. My practice is situated in the North suburbs of Johannesburg. So if you do Google it, it will pop up. As well as my email is kind connect at gmail. com or lowercase. Amazing. Thank you for that. And so, so as we just wrap up and close off this episode, I would like to, to just ask you to perhaps just share any success story that you've had. Throughout your practice or prior, what has really been this really sort of impactful situation that you've been in or that you've helped a client overcome certain challenges. Can you just elaborate a little bit more on that? Sure. I mean the, the previous spot I was at I kind of found myself in the space is a part of the gym that I was working at had kind of a boxing association to it, which was really, really cool. And some of the children wanted to do kids boxing. So I'd maybe started there or the, the clients would come in and they'd train with their train and I'd have an extra slots and I'd kind of just go sort of therapeutic, you play with the children, but along the way, one of the, one of the boys And it's like, listen, can you actually can, while I'm here for my session, can you actually see him? And he was, I'd say about, yeah, he was five years old. Now he's probably six or seven almost., he would run and jump and crash and really be looking for that external feedback. And yeah, we started, we stopped really applying those, those body center, deep pressure down, regulate him, give him the space to kind of work on his proprioception and balance really give him a Yeah, also a space to run and jump and crash and play and do all that sort of thing. And there really started to be an improvement. I mean, a lot of the tools that we maybe use in terms of stretching and deep pressure in the joints, his mom started to pull into their home life before bed just to help him, you know, kind of bring it back down to zero before he goes to sleep. And I mean, we did, we saw a huge amount of progress in his, Receptiveness to discipline, his receptiveness to being able to kind of play with other children without being kind of overwhelming for them. And yeah, just sort of applying some of those tools to their home life made it a lot easier. That's amazing. And it just shows you such a testament to how these changes can make such a huge impact on his life and how this will, really enhance his understanding of his own body and his own awareness around what he needs to, and he can take this through with him for the rest of his life. And yeah, that's really, really incredible. So Yeah. for that. And that is a wrap for today's episode. Thank you for listening. I hope that you enjoyed our conversation. You have been listening to the NeuroNurture podcast. Remember to subscribe. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please leave a five star review. This will help other autism families find podcasts like this to help them navigate the world of autism and neurodiversity. Until then, take care and celebrate neurodiversity in all its forms.