Chat out of Hell

Episode 2.4 - Heaven Can Wait | Rock & Roll Mercenaries

• Emma Crossland & Sam Wilkinson • Season 2 • Episode 4

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Let's get down to it and talk business, ballads and bad 80s numbers inspired by the A-Team.

This episode we'll answer questions like:

- Who robbed Kermit the Frog in 1979?

- Why did Bette Middler cuss out Jim Steinman so?

- What military experience do these rock & roll mercenaries really have?

PLUS a quick anecdote about quoting Steinman and scaring people, a perfectly-justified listener complaint and the next part of the ongoing A1 Sauce saga.

Next time! Rock and Roll Dreams Come Through meets Couldn't Have Said it Better. Who will win? Definitely the first one.

Keep your comments, reviews and arguments flying in to chatoutofhell@gmail.com, find us on Facebook or Instagram by searching Chat out of Hell and don't forget to use the hashtag #dearA1saucepleasesendsomeofyourA1saucetosamfromthereallygoodpodcastchatoutofhell

Chat out of Hell is a is a review podcast: all music extracts are used for review/illustrative purposes. To hear the songs in full please buy them from your local record shop or streaming platform. Don't do a piracy.

Music extracts on this episode:
Heaven can Wait by Meat Loaf from the album Bat out of Hell (1977)
Heaven can Wait by Karla DeVito from the album Is This a Cool World or What? (1981)
Heaven can Wait by Bette Middler from a demo tape labelled 1972
It Goes Like it Goes by Jennifer Warnes (1979) from the soundtrack to Norma Rae
Rock & Roll Mercenaries by Meat Loaf and John Parr from the album Blind Before I Stop (1986)

Send us a text

Emma:

What is this? This

Sam:

This is Chat Out of Hell, the only and best fortnightly podcast about the works of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman. But who is Meat Loaf?

Emma:

Loaf is a former parking lot attendant who's also done a bit of singing. Who's Jim Steinman?

Sam:

Jim Steinman is a songwriter, producer and musician whose home, Had green stains in the sink. There. Who are we?

Emma:

I'm Emma Crossland and you're Sam Wilkinson, and we're two comedians who live in the paradoxical state of having too much time on our hands, but never having quite enough time to get the important writing done.

Sam:

the important writing?

Emma:

This isn't the important writing.

Sam:

Welcome to Chat Out of Hell. Bow dow dow dow! Oh, I've got her joining in, listeners, I knew I'd do it.

Emma:

We

Sam:

could have discussed this before we started, but we're not gonna. We didn't. I'd like to call a Mini Pompidou and just announce that the messages section is moving to the back of the show from now on. Okay. If you are sitting on the edge of your seat waiting to find out whether I got a big case full of free A1 sauce on my doorstep, you're gonna have to wait!

Emma:

Oh, you're making us uh, really work for it.

Sam:

stay on those tenterhooks, audience! Stay on those tenterhooks! so how does this podcast work when I'm not trying to scam free sauce off the authorities?

Emma:

The original idea behind it was that we would review a couple of Meat Loaf and or Jim Steinman songs in, as we've said before, punishing detail. With a view to eventually writing our own version of a Steinman classic.

Sam:

Yeah, and at least one listener is looking forward to that. So,

Emma:

Yeah. Oh god.

Sam:

I'll, yeah, I know, we are gonna have to follow through on that promise. Shit, People have remembered, Emma. yeah, yeah, remember those lyrics I talked to you about getting heartburn after eating a big curry? Yeah. Gonna have to start using them soon. Ha

Emma:

Ha ha ha

Sam:

Write what you know! So yeah, that's the premise of this show and at the end of each of our reviews we rate our songs on our patented Meat Loaf slash Jim Steinman song rating scales. So this episode I'm continuing my quest to go through all of the Bat Out of Hell album one song at a time. So I'll be bringing Heaven Can Wait, and what will you be bringing?

Emma:

I'm continuing my wading through the sludge.

Sam:

sludge.

Emma:

and I'm bringing a song that I hadn't listened to before last week. Which is Rock and Roll Mercenaries from the Blind Before I Stop album. That album that we've all definitely listened to lots of.

Sam:

Yeah. Yeah. It's a real Song. Listeners, if you can hear chomping or metal banging noises in the background,

Emma:

It's the child that Sam keeps locked up in his basement trying to escape.

Sam:

Oh, hello!

Emma:

I thought I'd be one of those edgy comedians this

Sam:

Yeah!

Emma:

Bantz! I'm sorry.

Sam:

Yeah, those noises are star of the show, Maisie the dog, who has once again joined us for the recording,

Emma:

Maisie had any fan mail

Sam:

No, not yet. Maisie would love fan

Emma:

mail. I feel it's time that Maisie got some

Sam:

you do write in, do say hello to Maisie. But yeah, she's joined us again for the recording and she insisted on trying to play with Emma. constantly, so I've had to lock her in her little crate in the corner of the room and she's responded by chewing her toy to bits very noisily. If you can hear that is a sort of protest toy destruction by the best dog in the world. She's a good Good! Listeners, go away, find Heaven Can Wait and

Emma:

Rock and Roll Mercenaries

Sam:

on YouTube, Spotify, wherever you get your songs from. Wax Cylinder, perhaps? Yeah, gonna run out of these quickly, aren't I? We're gonna listen to Heaven Can Wait right now. So are you. We'll see you all in a very svelte five minutes.

Laptop:

I know, I know, Heaven can wait. And all the gods come down here just to wait. To sing for me And the melody's gonna make

Sam:

We've just listened to Heaven Can Wait. How do you feel about that one, Emma?

Emma:

Do you remember at the end of series one? Yeah. When we listened to the very last track that Meat Loaf would record the very last track of the last album? Yeah. And it was the ridiculous Train of love. It

Sam:

was.

Emma:

This should have been that song.

Sam:

Oh my God, if he'd re covered it with his In Jim Steinman's delicate words, ravaged voice. Oh,

Emma:

This should have been the last

Sam:

last song. You're absolutely right. As we discussed in that episode, although it was the last album either of the two of them made, neither of them was willing to acknowledge that. fact. so the whole album is full of crap that Jim dug out of his basement and songs about doing it with girls. But yeah, absolutely.

Emma:

Because it's one of the few Steinman songs that isn't full of that. Pompous, bombast of,

Sam:

Yes, no, it's very real, it's very God, it's very real, listen to that twat. But it is, it's genuinely touching it's I don't Somebody is going to write in and correct me now. I don't know of any other Steinman ballads. I'm sure he probably did write a few others in his career, but of the big stuff that people know of, this is the only ballad. Let me just go to my notes. So I, obviously we are gonna trash this song a little in a minute. It's what we do. But I'll just tell you last night I listened to this song while I was, Just finishing the washing up just before bed, and Maisie was laying on the sofa snoring away. I was making a cup of Yorkshire tea bedtime blend. Hashtag Dear Yorkshire Tea Bed Time Blend. Please can you send some of Yorkshire Tea Bed Time Blend to Sam from the Really Good Podcast. Chats

Emma:

an even longer

Sam:

The heart wants what it wants, Emma. But yeah. And it was just this lovely, beautiful moment of stillness. And it was very sweet and I just thought, yeah, this is lovely. All I've got is time until the end of time. What a nice lyric.

Emma:

There's nothing in it about banging girls. Nothing in it about motorbikes or anything like that really.

Sam:

This is the shortest song, checking in at a very slender 4 minutes

Emma:

Oh right, so the motorbike stuff came in a later verse that had to be cut.

Sam:

Almost certainly. So it's track three.. the Bat Out of Hell album, so this comes straight after you took the words right out of my mouth. Brackets, Hot Summer Night. It's

Emma:

handbrake turn, isn't it?

Sam:

turn, isn't have handbrakes on motorbikes? I'm not sure.

Emma:

Very

Sam:

Very different tone. Yes, This was the B side to the single Bat Out of Hell. Yeah. In that narrative, Bat Out of Hell ends with him crashing and dying, and floating off to heaven, and then you immediately go, Hang on though, heaven

Emma:

heaven can

Sam:

I've got shit to to do. Like

Emma:

Thanks for

Sam:

up. I'm listening to my dog snore. Sounds Magazine called this a fetching string slash ballad piece. Record Mirror, Jim's proved himself on Heaven Can Wait and 2 Out Of 3 Aren't Bad. Sophisticated sentimentalism. Washington Times called it surprisingly calm. And Jay Williams in his book History of Rock called this hushed melodrama, which, should tell you that not a lot of people write much about this song. Yeah. Yeah, move on to the loud stuff with the crashing guitars and the motorbikes.

Emma:

That is what you expect from Steinman and Meat Loaf

Sam:

It is what you expect. Contentment doesn't inspire a lot of songs, and I think for obvious reasons. I suppose the only exception is when John Paul Larkin, being content to sing with a stutter, was inspired to sing the song Scatman's skibba bop ba dubba bop. There you go, got it out of the way

Emma:

early Glad glad we got it out of the way earlier. I had a feeling it was coming

Sam:

Yeah? The pianist on this recording is Roy Bittan who, like a lot of musicians on this album, was a member of Bruce Springsteen's E Street Band. The E Street Band collectively did a lot of the guitars and bass and bits on that. Bittan's nickname in the E Street Band was The

Emma:

The Professor!

Sam:

Because he had a college

Emma:

LAUGHS

Sam:

I'd love to be nicknamed The Professor.

Emma:

With your degree? With yeah. But

Sam:

in

Emma:

case I could also be

Sam:

Professor. But that's the problem, Emma. If I did have to go to jail I'd like to be the guy they call the professor, because he works in the library and teaches people to read. But

Emma:

But somehow you've gained their respect so you're not having your head kicked in

Sam:

daily. No, because I'm the Professor! People leave the Professor alone.

Emma:

Presumably because the professor has a really dark secret.

Sam:

secret. Oh! I just thought it was because I was nice. That's not

Emma:

not going to make for a very interesting TV series though.

Sam:

All right.

Emma:

you've definitely done some really fucked up shit in order to get there.

Sam:

Oh. Oh is that what, okay. But I do like that 1970s idea of nicknaming somebody the professor because they can read.

Emma:

All right, Professor.

Sam:

Yeah, so this isn't the only recording of Heaven Can Wait. Karla DeVito recorded a version of it on her album Is This a Cool World or What? in 1981.

Emma:

1981.

Sam:

played you the title song of that before and you landed on the or what side.

Emma:

I did, didn't I?

Sam:

let me play you a little bit of Karla's version.

Laptop:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

Sam:

What do you think?

Emma:

I prefer the meat Loaf version. Okay. I think his voice suits it better.

Sam:

Okay.

Emma:

Do you think otherwise?

Sam:

I do like the um,

Emma:

The sort of rocked up bit. The

Sam:

and Ted esque guitar

Emma:

Yeah. in

Sam:

middle. That's

Emma:

pleasing, but I think I still prefer the Meat Loaf

Sam:

Karla said of her version,"I had sung the song on the road with Meat and it was the only quiet moment in the set. I wanted my version to rock out a little bit more." And I do have to say it rocks out a little bit

Emma:

Just a little bit,

Sam:

a Just a little bit. Un petit peu de rocking out more. Ellen Foley also had some things to say. So Ellen Foley, as we know, recorded the female vocals on this album, and then Karla did the touring with Meat loaf, Ellen wasn't available anymore. Ellen says,"what strikes you first about Heaven Can Wait is the melody. It just flows, and it's so smooth. It builds up to a crescendo. That's why I fell in love with it. But then you hear those lyrics." it. That's

Emma:

Okay. Yeah. No, no follow up, but then you hear those lyrics and

Sam:

it's all crashing down. And It's shit I hate it. it Yeah, it's great. I like the way it flows and builds up. It's a lovely number. What else is in my

Emma:

Have you got any trash to talk about it? Because I really haven't. This is most unlike us.

Sam:

Isn't it just?

Emma:

It's definitely a departure from the usual Steinman stuff.

Sam:

It is.

Emma:

It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's not one of the rock out epic classics,

Sam:

Lyrically, in Steinman terms, it's very boring.

Emma:

Yeah!

Sam:

Heaven can wait and all the gods come down here just to sing for me and the melody's gonna make me fly without pain, without fear. It's nice. You idiot, Jim Steinman. Give us something stupid.

Emma:

you do something stupid. Can't you tell us how sexy the angels are or something?

Sam:

or something? let's go into the quiz. It's an early quiz this time because there will be some more discussion off the back of the quiz. Okay, which of these three songs doesn't have a special link to this song.

Emma:

Ooh,

Sam:

Wind Beneath My Wings, Rainbow Connection, or Scatman bracket skee ba bop ba dop bop.

Emma:

I'm hoping that it's Scatman that doesn't have the connection. But does it somehow have a connection? Have you found a connection?

Sam:

Trick question.

Emma:

Do all of them have a connection? Yes, Fuck me. Go

Sam:

on. Okay, the connection with Scatman Ski, Bap Bop Bada

Emma:

Batbot, Barabot,

Sam:

is that they both feature on this podcast. But, Oh, come on! I could

Emma:

a connection.

Sam:

That's a card I could only play once, but I've

Emma:

done it. Oh, eugh.

Sam:

talk Wind Beneath My Wings then,

Emma:

yeah. which was

Sam:

by Bette Midler. the New York Public Library holds a 1972 demo recording of this song. By Bette Midler. Yeah! It's listed as being a demo reel of The Dream Engine. Steinman wrote in college. Do we need a jingle for engine? The Dream Engine. Dream Engine.

Emma:

Dream.

Sam:

Dreams.

Emma:

What twats?

Sam:

Unearthing more about the Dream Engine as we go, it's the musical Jim Steinman wrote it in college. It was so weird and crazy out there, man, that it attracted the attention of Joe Papp, the theatre impresario from New York, who was responsible for the New York Shakespeare Festival, and he wanted to put on the production of The Dream The dream Engine.

Emma:

Dream engine.

Sam:

Dreams. At the New York Shakespeare Festival which never ended up happening, but there was a bit of a rewriting of the show and some recordings and demos and stuff. This was recorded by Bette Midler for her second album and then wasn't ever used because, according to Louder Sound,"the story goes that Bette Midler, who sang on the demo, asked Steinman, What the fuck is this about?"

Laptop:

all your dreams and Let me go along on my way give me all your prayers to sing And I'll turn the night into the sky And today I got a taste of paradise I'm never gonna let it slip away I got a taste of paradise and it's all I really need to make me stay. Like a child again,

Sam:

What the fuck

Emma:

was

Sam:

about?

Emma:

That's got a real, the sound to it is really of its time, kind of

Sam:

very, yeah,

Emma:

it's late 60s early 70s. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine that being sung round a campfire.

Sam:

Yeah, you absolutely can. You could hear this just accompanied by an

Emma:

Yeah.

Sam:

a flower child

Emma:

hippie. Absolutely. I kinda like that vibe, so. you Yeah, a little bit towards the end it got a bit much I think I could get into

Sam:

Carla DeVito and Meat Loaf, you thought Meat Loaf's voice suited it more. I, based off my limited research, I do think this was written for female soloist. And by limited research, I mean I listened to all of these songs and then went, yeah, probably that. But I, yeah, I like it as well. It's very different tone to it though, isn't it?

Emma:

Yeah. the whole arrangement with Meat Loaf brings much more drama to it. it's still subdued compared to the usual drama. It's very different. Different kind of drama. The version that we've just listened to the yeah hippie flower child.

Sam:

yeah, So, this is what I find quite interesting. As I say, this recording is from 1972. It's the earliest one we have. Jim wrote that at 72 at the latest. He's still in his early 20s. Yeah. And he's writing this song about, finding contentment and, that happy

Emma:

do you think jim steinman aged backwards?

Sam:

Was he a Benjamin Button He may well have been, Emma. alternative proposal was, know all of his other songs about motorbikes and going fast yeah. Trying to make it with girls. Did he write this song for the brief period when he was successfully making it Ah, One

Emma:

One of those,

Sam:

of those.

Emma:

we may never know because Jim Steinman's private life is a mystery, isn't it?

Sam:

It is quite mysterious and when he does talk about it you always have to bear in mind that he is a liar. Yes. He is a full fat

Emma:

liar.

Sam:

Rainbow Connection link to this song. Rainbow Connection was co written by Ken Asher, who arranged the strings on Meat Loaf's version

Emma:

okay, that's

Sam:

Ken Asher got an Oscar nomination for Rainbow Connection, and rightly so, but he didn't win the Oscar.

Emma:

Who

Sam:

Imagine, Emma, a song being better than Rainbow Connection. It was a song called It Goes Like It Goes, from the film Norma Rae, which is about a woman who gets involved in trade union activity in the North Carolina cotton industry. I'll play you a bit of it. I think it's quite nice, but no way is it beating Rainbow

Laptop:

Goes, like it goes, like the river flows And time, it rolls right on. maybe what's good bit maybe bad gone. Bless the child of a working man.

Sam:

That was Jennifer Warnes singing It Goes Like It Goes from the film Norma Rae, which robbed Kermit the Frog at the 1979 Oscars.

Emma:

Yeah, it's no Rainbow Connection.

Sam:

not, no. But the reason I brought all of this up was because by finding that link, I can now submit the Muppet movie for when we play Film Club. And then when we get onto Tenuous Film Club, we can also watch Norma Rae, because it does look

Emma:

quite good. The Muppet movie's pretty tenuous. Ha ha Ha! We could just If you want to watch the Muppet movie sometime, Sam, I'm okay with that.

Sam:

It's a good movie.

Emma:

It's a great movie.

Sam:

Just saying, when we get bored of Meat Loaf pretending to be in fight Club, we can

Emma:

we can watch

Sam:

the Frog as a nice It's

Emma:

the Muppet movie gonna be a palate cleanser?

Sam:

A palate cleanser. exactly. That's all I have on this

Emma:

song, before

Sam:

The people of the internet have this to say, most of YouTube is, as you might expect, a lot of comments about, playing this at loved ones funerals, and it makes us think of And it's certainly, of all the songs we've covered so far, it is the one with the most emotional, uh It's a

Emma:

It's a lot more suitable for a funeral than Everything Louder Than everything Else. ha!

Sam:

Depends where you're being buried. At Williams Martin 16, simply the greatest album ever recorded. End of story. like the finality of that end of story. Allen 2424. It does not feel like 47 years since Meat Loaf landed on our record and tape players. But unlike record and tape players, which are history, Meat Loaf continues to be a legend of rock. Rock on in heaven!

Emma:

Aww.

Sam:

Yeah! Yeah!

Emma:

on all of the songs that we've looked at, and all of the Meat

Sam:

Yeah, there's a lot of R. I. P.

Emma:

R. I. P. Meat

Sam:

Yes, Yeah. Gotta quite a lot You do. This is a call out to everybody on the internet really, if you could stop commenting R. I. P. Meat Loaf

Emma:

want your actual insights, please,

Sam:

Yeah. we don't have to form our own opinions. And And finally, at lostintime8651, Did you all hear me singing just then? It was awesome. ha! Yeah, I week find idiots in the comments, Emma

Emma:

dad comment, ha!

Sam:

this song is not getting a lot of people's dander up. No, so it's time for us to rate it on our patented Jim Steinman songwriting scale, and Emma is pulling the face that I've been pulling all week because this is going to be a tricky one. Because is this a Jim Steinman at the top? A Jim Fineman or a Jim Declineman It's not a Jim

Emma:

Declineman Jim Fineman. It's a good song, but it's not what I want from a Jim Steinman song.

Sam:

This is, that's absolutely right. He's accidentally written a nice, stirring ballad. I think because he maybe forgot what a motorbike sounds like this week. But it's not the most stirring of ballads. Jim Steinman writes the best songs about motorbikes and explosions. When ballads come in, he's somewhere in the middle. So we're gonna call this one a Jim

Emma:

Jim I'm joining

Sam:

in! Yeah, I'm enjoying it! So that was Heaven Can Wait. Emma, just remind us what your song is this time.

Emma:

I'm bringing Rock and Roll

Sam:

I

Emma:

you watch the video as well.

Sam:

Rock and Roll Mercenaries. Find that on YouTube. Find it on Spotify.

Emma:

And I apologise

Sam:

You don't have to listen to all of it, honestly.

Laptop:

Talkin about Rock and roll mercenaries soldiers of fortune by some other name I'm talking about Rock and roll missionaries Money is power And power is fame Talking, talking

Sam:

That was Rock and Roll Mercenaries.

Emma:

it was.

Sam:

If you asked ChatGPT to write. you a generic 80s rock song

Emma:

That's what it would write.

Sam:

That's what it would write

Emma:

here's the details then. Rock and Roll Mercenaries released in August 1986. it charted at number 31 in the UK singles charts and number 16 in the Finnish singles chart. And then there's no more information about other charting, so I assume the rest of the world's charts were untroubled by it. It's from the album Blind Before I Stop. And it's written by Al Hodge and Mike Dan Ehrmig. And it's sung by Meat Loaf and John Parr. John Parr is a rock singer that did a few bits and pieces over the years best known for his 1985 single St. Elmo's Fire. I don't know a lot about him to

Sam:

be honest with

Emma:

but I did try and find some bits and pieces out. and I found, an interview with him from 2011, on getreadytorock. com. Ooh, lovely. and I found something really interesting out about him. So one of the questions that Mark Taylor from that website asked was,"You're originally from Doncaster. Tell us all about your early days playing the working men's club scene." And John replied to this with, Actually, I was born just outside Sherwood Forest. Hang on a

Sam:

minute

Emma:

I only moved to Doncaster in the late 70s, me coming from Worksop, and my wife coming from Castleford, Donny seemed like the bright light to us."

Sam:

OMG!

Emma:

from Worksop! Your hometown! He's from my hometown! That's incredible! I know! most of the inhabitants of Worksop are aware that Doncaster is, a shithole know, you can diss Worksop as much as you like, but Doncaster's just as horrible. and I will die on that hill.

Sam:

Hang on, Worksop is a, it's a fairly small town.

Emma:

Small ex mining town in North Nottinghamshire.

Sam:

Small enough that his family are still there. What I'm saying is, have you got an in with John Parr Can we get him on the podcast?

Emma:

Oh my god, I don't think I have, but we could find out.

Sam:

Something like that.

Emma:

Okay, if any of my family are to this, and it's obvious that you're not. Although, Mum, you might have downloaded this one to take on holiday, in which case, Hi, I hope you're having a lovely time.

Sam:

But aren't they going on holiday tomorrow?

Emma:

oh shit, yeah. Yeah, this one comes out. This one comes out in the future, doesn't Okay, never mind

Sam:

that Emma's mum you might have downloaded this one because she really enjoyed the

Emma:

Yeah. Yeah. That seems likely. do you know, first of all, hi, how are you doing? I hope everything's okay. Love you. but also have you heard of a bloke called John Parr? And did you like know him or anything? Or his family?

Sam:

If you're from Worksop and you know John Parr, drop us

Emma:

an

Sam:

email. chatoutofhell@gmail.com

Emma:

would love to hear from you. Yeah. John Parr actually wrote on the previous album Bad Attitude.

Sam:

Okay?

Emma:

he wrote some of the songs for that and then, Meat Loaf decided that they were a good partnership and so they ended up duetting on this, despite not, either of them not writing the song. from Meat Loaf's autobiography, Things were beginning to look brighter. I had a new manager and I'd finally found someone I could write with. John Parr! There was no point in waiting for Steinman."Work was going really well on the new album, Blind Before I Stop. John and I had just finished recording this duet called Rock and Roll Mercenaries. were doing a sold out show at Wembley Arena in London. John came on to do our duet. I never introduce people in the middle of a show. It breaks the continuity. I don't introduce the songs. You don't stop in the middle of a play and say, And now, ladies and gentlemen, Entering the stage is Robert De Niro. But John got so mad because I didn't introduce him, that he walked off the stage, walked out of the building, and I've never heard from him since."No matter how many phone calls we made to him, he never called back. It destroyed our friendship. I tried like crazy to get in touch with him. I left messages apologizing. John, I'm sorry. Please come home." So would you like John's take on

Sam:

but just before you do that, I'd like to interrupt with a quote from Steinman. Meat Loaf was talking about you never interrupt the show, etc. Yeah. Steinman complained about Meat Loaf doing exactly that.

Emma:

ha! Of course he did!,

Sam:

in their first tour this is a quote from Steinman. didn't have him speak, and he wore a black tuxedo, and he stalked the stage like an animal, and it was thrilling."But I think it got to him after a while that he couldn't talk, so in Pittsburgh, he started. All of a sudden, I hear, YOU MOTHERFUCKERS hAVING a gOOD pARTY?! And I thought, holy shit, what happened to that mythic character? And the audience saw it too, suddenly he was just this fat kid who works at the gas station."

Emma:

Oh Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim. so John's take on this Again, from the getreadytorock. com interview, John was asked, Did you feel you were stepping into big shoes, considering Meat Loaf's principal songwriter before was Jim Steinman? And John says, Meat Loaf used to introduce me"as Jim's successor, the new Steinman."I had studied Jim's work very closely and have to say he's very original in his song construction."

Sam:

Oh wow.

Emma:

When I wrote Specifically for Meat Loaf I would never be afraid to go over the top. For instance, most writers will repeat a line once or twice. Jim will sometimes go three or four," as if it was just three or four."And then just when you think it's too much, it somehow feels just right. The same goes for some of the musical sections of his classics. That's not to say I was ripping him. I just wanted to keep the tone. Meat is like Wagner. Beethoven, Shakespeare, and Seeger all rolled into one. He needs something to get his teeth into. And then the next question is, Your relationship with Meat Loaf did continue as you both had a hit record, with the single Rock and Roll Mercenaries from his album Blind Before I Stop." And John replies, I suppose it's not really a question, it's a statement. but John replies, I loved our time together making Mercenaries, from recording out in Germany with Frank Farrin, to shooting the video with Terry Donovan. We promoted that tune all over the world, just him and me, picking up TV bands along the way. Our friendship deepened, and we just loved it. I loved it. You'll have to ask Meat for his take on it."

Sam:

Phew!, what really sticks with me is that very first thing about"Jim Steinman's a very original songwriter." Yeah. Original is such a non compliment, isn't it? Oh, well done, it was very

Emma:

when Ed and I got married. our wedding day was magnificent and bizarre and full of, fun bits and pieces. And one of my aunties, when asked if she was having a nice time, apparently replied with,"it's very colourful." And it's that.

Sam:

She's off the Christmas card list. Talking about rock'n'roll mercenaries, Soldiers of Fortune by another name. Talking about rock'n'roll mercenaries, Money is power, and power is fame. That equation is so weird. Isn't it? Nobody's... some people's end goal is fame, but that's so that you can manipulate the fame for power or money.

Emma:

if we apply this to the modern world, money has given Elon Musk power and that power has definitely given Elon Musk fame. therefore it is a bad thing.

Sam:

Influences worldwide who are just in it to be known but I don't think that's what mercenaries are in it for. The other way round, if anything, fame is power is money. Yes, please, I'd like some money, I'm shooting at things for you.

Emma:

I'll go out on a limb here and say, I don't think this is a very good song.

Sam:

say that, Emma, but we were both singing joyously

Emma:

along This has been stuck in my head! it's terrible, but it is weirdly catchy. I hate this but can't stop humming it. It's ruining my life.

Sam:

what is a rock and roll mercenary? It's

Emma:

of fortune by some other name, Sam. Certainly,

Sam:

I, is that a a session musician?

Emma:

is it supposed to be a jibe at, the big rock stars who are perceived as being sellouts? Because I

Sam:

suspect that like It probably is a jibe at those other rock stars who, kept their really good writer performer partnerships going, and as a result did well in the ones.

Emma:

it's just shit, isn't it?

Sam:

it? Tsssssss.

Emma:

in a 1986 interview with Record Mirror, Meat Loaf said of the song's message,"It's about the music business. It's about the people who do it, but they aren't true to themselves. the perfect example is Deep Purple last year. That's the perfect example of a rock and roll mercenary. Let's take the money and run". I don't know what Deep Purple had done to, uh Was

Sam:

the tour where one of them said,"Can I have everything louder than everything else?" Yeah? You're not so big

Emma:

now, are

Sam:

Meat Loaf Yeah! Naming your song after them.

Emma:

Meat Loaf wasn't happy with the whole album,

Sam:

Mm.

Emma:

which is understandable because having listened to snippets of it, it's fucking awful. the running order of The songs wasn't what he'd agreed. and the final production also wasn't what he wanted. He was working with German producer, Frank Ferian who apparently spoke very little English. and this is another excerpt from his biography. first I hear execution day, and it's fine. The next song was Blind Before I Stop, and I hear underneath dance beat sounds, I think. What the hell is that? And then I listen to the next song, and there's a dance beat underneath it too. And on every song, oh my god, was all I could say. I was sputtering". Spottering. Spottering.'I called Bob Ellis, who I think he's involved in his management at the time I've got to stop this record, the order's wrong, the cover is wrong, and the music is wrong, They're trying to make me into Gloria gaynor!" Gaynor Now you mention the cover, I am now looking it up. Oh, it's not a, it's not a good

Sam:

cover. Oh, it's a photo

Emma:

fix. Yeah.

Sam:

of Meat Loaf as a This is very 80s, this whole business of rock and roll mercenaries, soldiers of fortune, very A team. You The whole thing. And then, yeah, the front cover of the album is a photo fit montage of Meat Loaf as though Interpol were chasing him around the world. I would just like to note that use of rock and roll mercenaries is contrary to rule 108 of the Geneva Conventions. Sorry, of the rock and roll Geneva Conventions.

Emma:

so the video was directed by a guy called Terrence Donovan. not to be confused with Jason Donovan's dad, who's also called Terrence. and Terrence Donovan directed the video for Robert Palmer's Addicted to love.

Sam:

was about to say!

Emma:

The girls that feature

Sam:

the same girls? They're the same girls. Are they really?

Emma:

the same girls.

Sam:

That is in my notes as a ha ha. Yep. What a funny thing, this is a rehearsal for that video. But it just is. Wow.

Emma:

Same girls.

Sam:

So, for people who've not watched the video,

Emma:

why? Why wouldn't you watch this amazing

Sam:

Meat Loaf and John Parr in

Emma:

first off we open with black and white footage of generic protests and

Sam:

and riots. Yes, we talked briefly about this when it came up on Hulk Hogan's non Steinman theme song. But it's very Yes, it's not.

Emma:

When horrible acts of violence are used on pop songs. Yeah. Bit

Sam:

Bit odd.

Emma:

And then we cut to a closeup of Meat Loaf striking a few weird poses. And at one point his mouth is oddly open and I think he's attempting to look rebellious, but he just looks really gormless.

Sam:

you

Emma:

Don't you think? It

Sam:

quite gormless, yeah. The whole cast of this video are dressed in

Emma:

it's also army surplus

Sam:

down The army surplus shop, Yeah, they've been down the army and navy stores, cleaned the place out, and they're wearing some ill fitting pseudo military fatigues

Emma:

Yep. did you notice that Meat Loaf has a Union Jack

Sam:

has

Emma:

Parr has the US flag guitar? I did that, yeah.

Sam:

Evidence of their transatlantic cooperation. NATO

Emma:

NATO in guitar form.They're in a really dingy sort of military looking room. and everyone in the background looks bored shitless.

Sam:

do!

Emma:

The blokes look rough as hell but the women are all very heavily made up with scraped back hair and sexy ish versions of the military outfits.

Sam:

And again, if you've seen the Addicted to Love video, with the sexy ladies playing the guitar, it is 100 percent identical, the makeup. it just goes to show what a little bit of backdrop will do because that's so It's sordid, but in a pre Watershed way.

Emma:

Yes, yeah, it's, oh. the faces that Meat Loaf pulls throughout this are hilarious. the difference in physical, attractiveness, for want of a better word, between John Parr and Meat Loaf. Not that I'm saying that John Parr's a hottie, because he isn't, but the difference between them is so noticeable. and I think John Parr really knows that, so he's understating it,

Sam:

Yeah, oh, do you know what? You're absolutely right.

Emma:

Meat Loaf's trying

Sam:

to strut. really trying to strut and be the cock of the walk. He doesn't know how to do it.

Emma:

Yeah,

Sam:

because this is so far out of Meat Loaf's comfort zone.

Emma:

yeah.

Sam:

There's no black anywhere in this video. At no point

Emma:

point is anybody pretending to be a

Sam:

Yeah, nothing

Emma:

No. in a

Sam:

video about mercenaries. What a waste.

Emma:

of our favourite bits is when one of the overly made up girls gets up to do a weird dance. Lots of arm movements.

Sam:

she does

Emma:

a really bad version of the robot. And it's so awkward because nobody else reacts to fact fact that she's suddenly doing this dance. so that's painful to sit through. there's, The bit where the blokes join in in the chorus and they all look like they're dead inside. Do

Sam:

Do you have any leads on who those blokes were?

Emma:

I do not.

Sam:

Because they appear for just a few seconds, and they are, they look like real mercenaries. They look tired and

Emma:

old. Yes. Like

Sam:

they just want to go home, but they can't anymore because of what they did.

Emma:

They want the war to be over.

Sam:

No, they don't want the

Emma:

war to be over,

Sam:

That's where they're getting paid.

Emma:

I suppose so. war

Sam:

to go in their favor, but only just,

Emma:

So there's a shot where all the women are standing together and they do a bit of the singing and all except for one of them is wearing the army surplus kit.

Sam:

of them's wearing a

Emma:

a red dress! Red dress? Why?

Sam:

Because she's about to walk over to the next sound stage to do the Robert Palmer video.

Emma:

Did they just not have enough costumes? Because this feels quite low budget. I've written here, the whole video is what I imagine the edgy boys of comedy get up to in the green room after an evening of being all edgy and controversial. Meat Loaf and John Parr look like a couple of smug crowing twats. do.

Sam:

They do. And when I'm in an all male green room, which thankfully is quite rare nowadays because I don't bother applying for gigs, that's what it's like.

Emma:

yeah?

Sam:

Yeah, I am talking about you, from yeah! Yeah! I

Emma:

I wouldn't know, I've never been, but I don't think my sort is welcome there.

Sam:

The Bebosomed. The

Emma:

The Bebosomed. Is that what I am? The Bebosomed? That's what we

Sam:

you, yes.

Emma:

You, the men? Referred to us as The Bebosomed. It's quite difficult to say, isn't it? It is,

Sam:

that's why we don't let you in.

Emma:

So I've got a couple of reviews.

Sam:

Hit me.

Emma:

Lucy O'Brien from the NME said, she found rock and roll mercenaries to be a"run of the mill guitar befuddled manifestation of the American dream." And Chris Roberts of Sounds Magazine said,"What a pair of paunches. Loser meets loser, result dead loss." So don't think it was critically acclaimed. and I've only taken one comment from YouTube James Mitchell 8922 said this song stinks. I don't like John Parr at all, but I do think Meat Loaf is great. It wasn't until 1993 that the godfather of goth rock came back from The dead

Sam:

Godfather of Gothrock. Is it Gothrock?

Emma:

I don't think

Sam:

is. I don't think

Emma:

is. I think it has

Sam:

gothic I Exactly, goth, we are going to have to talk at some point about the Sisters of Mercy, with whom Jim Steinman worked in the late 80s, early 90s. That's goth, this is gothic, it's

Emma:

Yeah.

Sam:

back to genre school,

Emma:

was. It's goth adjacent, I would say. But you're not going to hear any Meat Loaf stuff at your average goth night, are you?

Sam:

No, because there's no time for other songs if

Emma:

do that.

Sam:

I wouldn't know! No, I don't think you would.

Emma:

No, I've been to a fair few goth nights, but not for a long

Sam:

a long time. Me too! If you're regularly going to goth nights and you hear Meat Loaf, drop us an email chatoutofhell@gmail.com We'd

Emma:

like to know.

Sam:

Emma, is it time to rate this song? I think song.

Emma:

song. On our

Sam:

patented Meat Loaf Song Scale. And I've just looked back over the spreadsheet, we've not broken out the Meat Loaf Song Rating Scale at all this series. We've been very Steinman our Meat Loaf Scale, as listeners will remember from the Dim and Distant Series 1, starts with Marvin Lee Aday at the top, to Marvin Lee OK in the middle, and ends with Marvin Lee No Way for the rubbish songs. Now, before you open your mouth, I'd just like to remind you that the only song so far that's earned a Marvin Lee No

Emma:

Way

Sam:

is Where the Rubber Meets the Road, But where does this song sit? It's

Emma:

It's so hard to decide. It's definitely not A

Sam:

not

Emma:

Marvin Lee Aday

Sam:

no

Emma:

Is it an okay or is it a no way?

Sam:

we do sing along to Where the Rubber Meets the Road.

Emma:

And this is terrible.

Sam:

on that level, isn't it?

Emma:

I think it's a no way.

Sam:

This is a Marvin Lee no wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy. No way. So that was our two songs this episode. Got some messages Emma, and I know people are dying to find the result of the A1 Sauce campaign was, but we do have some other messages to get through.

Emma:

Ah, okay then.

Sam:

And actually one of them is Quite important? you'll

Emma:

Are we being sued?

Sam:

This is from Anthony, and I'm just going to give Anthony's first name.

Emma:

Okay.

Sam:

For reasons that might become apparent. Hi folks. Thanks for the podcast. It's always great to hear opinions of the work of the legendary Meat Loaf and the genius that is Jim Steinman. I've been a very fanatical fan of both artists for 30 years. I have every single officially released track by both Meat and Jim in my collection on multiple formats. I listened to episode 1.2 and I'm afraid that there were so many factual inaccuracies that I can't continue with the podcast. Here's two examples. One: Took the Words, did get the album signed to Cleveland International Records, but it wasn't the spoken word part, it was the musical introduction to the track, which Steve loved. He was convinced to sign the album by E Street legend, little Steven Van Zant. Two. Todd Rungan did not perform the male spoken word part at the start of Took the Words on the record. It was Jim Steinman. Karla DeVito performed the opening on the official video. Carla was Meat's first featured duet partner on the Bat Out of Hell tour. I cannot continue to listen to such an ill researched channel, but I am jealous of your journey to enlightenment. It was a 30 year love affair for me. Good luck on your way. Please end forthcoming episodes with a disclaimer. We don't know the facts, this is just our version of the story. All the best, Anthony.

Emma:

How did you react to this, Sam? How furiously did you?

Sam:

particularly furious. Anthony was polite enough to drop us an email and correct us

Emma:

on

Sam:

things. Which I'm not entirely sure Anthony's correct about either. But, the central premise is quite right, that we aren't always right. Because, I replied to Anthony just to say thank you. and we cheerfully accept those corrections. What I said to him is we do both research the show, but don't have the time or means of corroborating the stuff we find. So the most entertaining version of the narrative goes in, even if the source for it is some bloke on the internet. In all fairness to us though, Jim Steinman did spend much of his life being economical with the truth, so what comes around. Anthony's disclaimer. is a bit harsh, do feel like some sort of disclaimer might be appropriate from now on. I'm gonna say, this podcast is as accurate as anything Jim Steinman says. And we'll proudly make that claim from now on. We are just as accurate as Jim Steinman's own word of mouth on anything that we say. Fair? This is from Claire Muncaster. Okay. Who's emailed again? Claire's asked if we can cover, Meat Loaf's version of More by the Sisters of Mercy at some point. I love it. And Wasted Youth off Bat out of Hell Two that's also known as Love Death and an American Guitar. I stressed the staff out in a respite care home. When a woman said her ex hit her on the head with a guitar, I asked, did it have a heart of chrome a voice like a horny angel while staff looked on horrified. Claire, we would have done the same as well.

Emma:

I like Claire.

Sam:

Yeah, can't wait for your Jim Steinman slash Meat Loaf song, Claire.

Emma:

Oh no! Yeah.

Sam:

So those two song requests. Huh. Wasted Youth slash Love, Death and an American Guitar, and I am going to keep doing that because other people call it Love, Death and an American Guitar. Anyway, I'm going to propose, just like we started series two with a special all about I'd do anything for love. I think we should start series three with A few of the monologues, because they're all very short and they're all very stupid, so we could maybe take two monologues each. Yeah, we'll kick off series three with your request, Clare. Stick around for those. That was Clare. And then, I do have an email, from consumerrelations@kraftfoods. com

Emma:

exciting!

Sam:

Long term listeners to the show will know. That I sent a cheeky email off to A1 sauce and the gist of the email, the gist of the email was horse shit, But what I wanted to know was what the prize was for their A1 Sing for Your Beef competition. And also, can I have some free source? Here's the reply from Kraft Heinz. Dear Sam Wilkinson, We are glad to hear that you love our products. Our company consists of independent operations in several other countries. Each company manufactures and markets products that appeal to the needs of the consumers in their area, so products that are sold in one country may not be available in others. While we never like to miss an opportunity to increase sales, we only sell our products through retail stores, and not directly to consumers. I'm sorry to disappoint you, and I hope you'll look out for the many other Kraft products that are available here. In addition, A1, the leading US sauce, open brackets, FORMERLY STEAK SAUCE, in all caps, close brackets, is a unique blend of 11 spices and seasonings. It can be used as a condiment or marinade. A1 was originally created by Henderson William Brand, master chef in the royal kitchens of King George IV of England, probably in the 1820s. When the king tasted the sauce, he proclaimed it was A1, hence the name. G. F. Heublein and brothers began to import the product into the U. S. in 1906. When World War I broke out, importing the product became impossible, and Heublein began manufacturing the product within the U. S. In 1983, Nabisco Inc. purchased Heublein, and today Kraft owns A1 Steak Sauce. They've said A1 Steaksauce despite saying it was formally that earlier in the email. Again, thanks for contacting us and I hope you'll continue to enjoy our products, Kraft Heinz Consumer Relations.

Emma:

that wasn't the response we were hoping for, is it?

Sam:

they didn't read my email Emma.

Emma:

they definitely didn't acknowledge the podcast or the witticisms

Sam:

No, I did say in my email, If you don't have time to deal with this, just fire off some nonsense and that's fine. And so they did. But we are now declaring war on a1Sauce. There will be no end to this podcast until I get my free A1Sauce. So the hashtag still stands, Dear A1Sauce, please send some of your A1Sauce to Sam from the really good podcast chat out of hell. But if you could all step it up a notch, that would be lovely. And I think it's time we reach out to other sauce manufacturers and tell them how much A1 has let us down. So I guess I'll have to draft an email to HP. Yep. I'd rather have no email than that.

Emma:

Yeah, that was an anti climax.

Sam:

old letdown. But do you know John Parr? Do you work for Yorkshire Tea and can I have some free bedtime blend? Do you regularly hear Meat Loaf at goth nights? chatoutofhellatgmail. com and give us your thoughts and opinions on our reviews this week. Were we right? Were we wrong? Would you like to argue with us? Would you like to correct us on a trivial point ChatOutOfHell at gmail. com Don't forget to follow us on the social media. You can search ChatOutOfHell on Facebook and ChatOutOfHell on Instagram. do Use that hashtag Dear A1 sauce Please send some of your A1 sauce to Sam from the really good podcast chat out of hell Emma what songs are we bringing next time?

Emma:

next time I'm gonna bring Couldn't Have Said It Better from 2003's album of the same name.

Sam:

And I'm gonna Rock'n'Roll Dreams Come Through, which appeared on Bat Out of Hell 2 and Jim Steinman's solo album, Bad For Good.

Emma:

And Lovely.

Sam:

We're still selling tickets to our show at the Nottingham Comedy Festival on November 10th. We are? Yeah, no idea how well they're selling. Have a look. And also, if you are enjoying this, I have another podcast Inform, Educate, Entertain, which Emma is a regular guest on. It's on hiatus now but it's still brilliant. There are more than 25 fantastic episodes If you like a stupid comedy panel show like QI or Unbelievable Truth, things like that, you'll like that I think, so give it a go. search for Inform, Educate, Entertain

Emma:

it is basically Radio 4 fan fiction and it's

Sam:

It is Radio 4 fanfiction, yes. And the crossover between Radio 4 listeners and Meat Loaf fans. Basically a circle on that Venn diagram, isn't it? As always, please keep your general Meat Loaf thoughts and anecdotes flying in. Did you go to the Natural History Museum in London and find Meat Loaf arguing with the curator about whether or not Diplodocus has existed? Let us know, chatoutofhellatgmail. com. I think that's all of it. Emma, any final words? Thanks.

Emma:

just a disclaimer that all of this might be lies.

Sam:

Alright we'll see you all again in another two weeks time. Thanks everybody, bye! Bow now, now, now. Bing!