Episode 4.1 - The Dream Engine (Dream Engine) (Dreams) (Engines)

Chat out of Hell is back to go where other podcasts won't - in this case, to Jim Steinman's very first musical creation.

This episode we dive into the Dream Engine - produced at Amherst College in 1969, burning a trail through rock and roll history for the rest of time. Our interepid duo dive deep into this murky sea, providing the answers to questions like:

- What sort of socially aware theatre would a bunch of naive teens in Scarborough produce?

- How much does Emma know about Arnaud's theatre of cruelty?

- Are there any actually good songs in this one?

PLUS all the good sundry nonsense including hefty amounts of excitement about going to see the Bat musical and a good bit about anniversary presents.

Keep your comments, reviews and arguments flying in to chatoutofhell@gmail.com, find us on Facebook or Instagram by searching Chat out of Hell and don't forget to use the hashtag #DearA1saucewedontneedyoursaucenowwevegotourown

Chat out of Hell is a is a review podcast: all music extracts are used for review/illustrative purposes. To hear the songs in full please buy them from your local record shop or streaming platform. Don't do a piracy.

Music extracts on this episode taken from the Dream Engine, performed at Mount Holyoke College in 1969. Available from jimsteinman.com

Transcript

Sam 0:00

What is This

Emma 0:01

This Is Chat Out Of Hell. The only podcast that dares to dive deep into the back catalogues of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman and see if there are pearls at the bottom of that horrible ocean.

Sam 0:14

Who is Meat Loaf?

Emma 0:15

Meat Loaf was an actor, singer, and musician who doesn't feature in any of today's ramblings. Who's Jim Steinman?

Sam 0:23

Jim Steinman was a musician, writer, and producer who thought of himself and Meat Loaf as a duo, like Hall and Oates.

Emma 0:31

Who are we?

Sam 0:32

We are Sam Wilkinson and Emma Crossland, the Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf of Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf Analysis podcasts.

Emma 0:39

Let's never discuss who is who.

Sam 0:41

Welcome to Chat Out of Hell Bow. Now. Now, now Bing.

Emma 0:46

Bing.

Sam 0:47

I've realized in the edits that every time I sing the theme, I sing it either much too slow or much too fast compared to the actual bit of theme. And then when I overlay them, it doesn't work.

Emma 1:00

Does it matter though?

Sam 1:01

it Yeah. I think we're losing thousands of listeners

Emma 1:06

they just tune in, they hear that bit. Yeah. And then it's like, nah, I'm not,

Sam 1:09

not for me. Not for

Emma 1:11

it's just not good enough.

Sam 1:14

Alright, good. I'm gonna clip that bit out and play it to myself when I'm feeling down,

Emma 1:19

Oh God. Do I need to do like an opposite now and say, Sam, you are the best. So that you, can

Sam 1:25

Could you sound less sarcastic when

Emma 1:27

No, no, I can't. It's just my voice. Sorry. I suffer from what's known as insincere voice.

Sam 1:35

I think you are the Jim Steinman

Emma 1:36

I am not sure whether to take that as a

Sam 1:43

compliment No, Neither of them are compliments. So here we go. Series four Chat out of Hell. We've now, started more Chats out of Hell than there are Bat out of hell albums. Wow. in your

Emma 1:57

Yeah, in face Meat Loaf

Sam 1:59

Lazy, old, so and so. We're starting series four. As weary as we were at the end of series three, which is maybe a bad sign, but there you go. But I'm quite excited to get back to listening to Good Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman works

Emma 2:15

I'm really looking forward to listening to the bangers and some of the, fun daft awful

Sam 2:19

Speaking of fun things, we're looking forward to. We are going to see the Bat out of Hell musical

Emma 2:23

week. I'm so excited.

Sam 2:25

Yeah. Listeners, if you are listening to this on the day it comes out, we'll be going to see it in just a couple of days. So last call. If you do have any thoughts on the musical or things that we should look out for, drop us a line, chatoutofhell@gmail.com. so normally, Emma on this podcast, the deal is that we both bring a song by Meat Loaf or Jim Steinman to our analysis machine. Yes. And calculate whether or not it's a good or bad song. To celebrate us going to see the final Jim Steinman musical

Emma 2:54

mm-hmm.

Sam 2:54

We have decided to review instead the very first Jim Steinman musical theatre show. which is a piece called The Dream Engine

Emma 3:04

Dream

Sam 3:06

Engine Dream

Emma 3:07

Engine..

Sam 3:08

Dreams Which he wrote in college in 1969. So, listeners, normally I tell you to go away and find YouTube or Spotify and listen to the piece we're about to discuss. Don't, don't, don't, don't do it now. it's over two hours long. It is Student

Emma 3:30

It's all available on Jim's

Sam 3:31

website. It's all available on Jim's website in the form of a recording of a performance. From tape recorder at the back of the room somewhere. it's low quality in lots of ways, is what we're saying. We are gonna dive in now. So listeners don't go away to YouTube or Spotify. Instead, close your eyes, even if you're driving. Close your eyes. Wavy

Emma 3:53

lines appear

Sam 3:54

lines. Appear, bling, bling bling. Imagine it's April the 25th, 1969. You're in the sleepy backwoods of Western Massachusetts. extensive woodlands are interspersed with wooden clapboard churches, weird antique shops and tourist attractions with names like Basketville it's a real place. Is it? Yeah, it closed a few years ago. Um, I think it might actually be in New Hampshire, but it's all the same there. What, what, sorry. Are you about to ask me what the deal with Basketville is? Basket

Emma 4:23

Yeah. Basketville

Sam 4:25

yeah. A big shop that's sold baskets.

Emma 4:28

Of course it was. Yeah. Oh, America has

Sam 4:31

everything. America has everything. Amherst is one of the few towns around there. In the 1970 census, it will record a population of 26,000, It's a sleepy college town exactly like the ones you've seen in films. It's all grassy quadrangles and brick halls with a white clock tower on top and a boy playing hacky sack on the lawn. This is a hotbed of the liberal arts, in this time means anti-Vietnam sentiment and long-haired weirdos with electric guitars. In Amherst College's Kirby Theatre, a three night run of a brand new work by one of these angry young folk is about to begin. The auditorium is crowded, the run has already sold out. If we extend the artistic license far enough, we can imagine the future parents-in-law of one of the future's greatest Steinmanologists in in the crowd. The lights go down, the band strikes up, and history is about to be made. Anyway, that's nine. Minutes long. We're not listening to all of that. Good. Okay, Emma. we're not gonna Film Club this and give it a blow by blow, but what is the Dream Engine about?

Emma 5:55

what's it about? Yeah.

Sam 5:58

Do you want me to say what it's about? Yeah.

Emma 6:00

because I, I've

Sam 6:01

I'm

Emma 6:01

not bit of

Sam 6:02

synopsis yet. it's a rock opera. This is a big balls out electric guitars everywhere. Half the cast turns out naked at the end of it. 1970s Rock opera. Emma looks so unhappy.

Emma 6:21

I mean, we had Hair. That was good.

Sam 6:24

this was a, an angrier version of Hair. Jim talks about Hair, I think in an article he wrote for the student paper about this, where basically the, hippie flower child era of Hair is already over. Yeah. And we need this dark, angry youth uprising Broadly speaking, it's about a, dystopian future type world where a young, charismatic man called Baal takes a tribe of

Emma 6:51

That's it?

Sam 6:53

Into a, a weird, wouldn't you know it? A Peter Pan style existence away from the horrible adults. But the adults keep trying to bring him back and interrogating him and trying to draft him into the army. So he leads a teenage uprising, which destroys the city and leaves everybody dead. Now,

Emma 7:13

Somewhere in my readings around this, there was mention of it being quite a similar tale to the Manson family.

Sam 7:21

The events, the events of the Manson family, the crimes of

Emma 7:25

of Charles man events,

Sam 7:26

Yes., the crimes of Charles Manson were not committed until after this was performed. Yes. So he very much predicted the zeitgeist, Emma.

Emma 7:34

Does this mean that Steinman is, if anything, an inspiration?

Sam 7:39

Oh God, was Charles Manson next to my mother-in-law in that auditorium? That is a synopsis of the plot, but it's, something you have to work hard to pick out. There are two. Actors who play the roles called Max and Emily, who themselves then play all the authority figures which is very confusing for a long time, so Max is intermittently a kid trying to infiltrate the tribe and then he's the chief of police and then he's a psychiatrist

Emma 8:06

I wonder if we saw this in the visual medium that it was meant to be seen in, instead of just listening to a bad recording of it. I wonder if we'd have picked

Sam 8:13

on that Yeah, we probably would've done. Yeah. We do have to address that now. We listened to a bad recording of this show. The show is introduced by an historian,

Emma 8:24

oh God. Blood or ketchup, ketchup or

Sam 8:28

our blood. ketchup of

Emma 8:29

Or Blood.

Sam 8:29

kick catch our blood. The historian, introduces the key concepts of the show. Yeah. In a 15 minute monologue.

Emma 8:38

style was influenced by elements of Brecht. Yes. Which brings us to our first, of what will probably be several, theatre wanker moments.

Sam 8:48

theatre wanker.

Emma 8:50

You and I have both studied, studied.

Sam 8:54

we have studied the

Emma 8:54

theatre, we've studied, the theatre and the styles of Brecht, at A Level which for our American listeners means that we were pretentious 18 year olds.

Sam 9:06

high. Oh no, I don't like doing the accent. Sorry. America, that was unwarranted.

Emma 9:11

which of Brecht's plays did you

Sam 9:13

Emma, I studied, the Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui. Ah,

Emma 9:17

Ah.'cause I studied the Caucasian Chalk Circle. Okay. So we have

Sam 9:22

right. Do you know, I don't know yours at all. No, because why would you read another Brecht when

Emma 9:27

Jesus

Sam 9:28

which Christ. Quick summary. Bertolt Brecht was a, theatre. Writer, director, practitioner, practitioner, yes. That's what he would've called himself. He was a practitioner who insisted that the audience should never forget that they are watching a play.

Emma 9:45

which meant watching the plays was genuinely quite a punishing ordeal, there was a lot of narration.

Sam 9:51

There's a lot of narration. There's a lot of reminding you that you are watching a thing that we are putting on for you and Ooh, the cast are in the audience and they're gonna

Emma 9:58

There was also quite a lot of telling you what was going to happen before it

Sam 10:01

happened. Yes. Yeah. Lots of that sort of stuff. just for info, the Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui is an analogue for the rise of Hitler, which takes place in a market town that trades cabbages.

Emma 10:14

Oh, that's nice.

Sam 10:15

Mm-hmm.

Emma 10:15

The Caucasian Chalk Circle, is a play about a peasant woman who saves a baby from the governor's family during a political upheaval. When the old regime returns, the governor's widow claims the baby as her own, having not raised the child. So it's about themes to do with motherhood and the judicial system, and the struggle between the privilege and the oppressed

Sam 10:37

worthy stuff,

Emma 10:39

Very worthy

Sam 10:39

stuff. That 18 year olds in small town, sixth form colleges are definitely equipped to handle, anyway, That's the sort of thing that is influencing young Jim Steinman Young, Jim Steinman writes this piece as part of his degree. it's a piece of independent study and he puts it on local college auditorium. And it's so good that it's gonna transfer to another local college and then to the New York Shakespeare Festival. This show is really well received. Look at your face. It's big. It's electric. It's Brechtian, but it's also rock and roll. And it's operatic'cause of course it is,'cause it's Jim and it's far too long because of course it is, it's Jim. And everything gets repeated 50 times because of course it is. It's Jim. It's There's lists. All the classic elements of Jim are already there. I

Emma 11:35

know there are speeches that we've already talked

Sam 11:37

about. There are speeches we've already talked about. There's some others that are yet to come up in, in our coverage of the songs, but there's a few other forward references. I know you hate this, Emma.

Emma 11:45

I hate it so much

Sam 11:46

You hate this so much. I won't say I'm a fan, but I can really see where this is coming from. The historian is the narrator who is going and mucking about with the crowd and being a twat. you've got actors playing Max and Emily, who themselves are playing various authority figure roles. Yes. And then you've got Jim Steinman himself playing the role of Baal, the charismatic cult leader. I guess if you write the show, you can cast who you like, right? Yeah. And then you've got an assortment of other people who are in the cast. Yeah. when I opened the cast list, I was really desperate to see my parents in law on there, but sadly, not really. Don't think it would've been their thing.

Emma 12:30

it all could have been so different,

Sam 12:31

could have been so different. We're talking about it because it's the first step on Jim's road to success.

Emma 12:40

think if this had've been my introduction to Jim, we might not have been doing this.

Sam 12:49

It's, it's a really good job. We've not done this show in chronological order. We

Emma 12:53

My first introduction to Jim was in the nineties Bat Out of Hell Two. which is incredible and so much fun. 10-year-old Emma would not have appreciated.

Sam 13:05

10-year-old. Emma would not have loved, uh,

Emma 13:07

even the music in this.

Sam 13:09

Do you not like the music

Emma 13:10

in it? I hate the

Sam 13:11

music in it. All of it. of it. Okay. This is where we might have to, I would like to reiterate, I don't think this is a good show, but, okay. I didn't enjoy listening to a muffled tape recording of a mostly visual show which contains a lot of references to contemporary politics. Yeah. Which went obviously right over my head. Some bits of it were quite funny. Some, some of the songs I quite enjoyed. Okay. The song that I've used as the intro to our podcast Come in the Night Invocation of the Tribe. my note here says, I think it's a genuinely decent song. It's got a good hook and it's full of youthful rage, but it's just too long, even for a musical theatre number. it is actually quite catchy and I think it probably has a good dance that accompanies it. You know, just like the Macarena.

Emma 14:01

can we talk about the dance

Sam 14:02

No. We want to talk about the Macarena.

Emma 14:04

There's a preface to this, which is exerpted from Jim's draft manuscript. I am not going to read it all because as with all Jim stuff, it's too long."I can't help thinking that Artaud would've adored rock and found its sources and textures. A true example of theatre, of cruelty." And did you do any theatre of cruelty stuff? Uh, we did touch on Artaud and theatre of Cruelty.

Sam 14:29

what's the general gist of theatre of cruelty?

Emma 14:31

Oh God. I mean it's really going back a bit, but it's, involving the audience Okay. In uncomfortable

Sam 14:39

involving the audience in this show truly is cruelty.

Emma 14:45

Jim does go on to talk about the dances."All the songs are sung out of the action, eg by soloists, like rock arias on the platforms while simultaneously on the disc," which is the stage area that he's prescribed"these strongly choreographed or directed dancers and rituals are performed. These rituals cannot be loose or ragged or have anything to do with pop dance steps."Neither can they be dancey, ie completely part of the world of calculated, deliberate modern dance. they must convey a ceremonial quality and epic texture, strenuous, strong, muscular, sensual, and extreme. Never cute." It's gonna be a tough watch that

Sam 15:33

in

Emma 15:33

isn't it it Strictly it ain't

Sam 15:37

So you're saying it's not gonna be like the Macarena,

Emma 15:40

it's not gonna be like the Macarena you know, the dances that we've seen in some of Jim's other music videos,

Sam 15:46

Yes, yes. From his solo album around the early eighties. It's that, it's it's definitely that. Yeah. this is Jim at his most pretentious and

Emma 15:55

Yeah.

Sam 15:56

but I would, it's astonishing. But this is the age to be at pretentious and wanky.

Emma 16:01

Its, it is. If I'd have had the confidence and if I'd have been doing the right kind of course, yeah. I'd have written some dog shit like

Sam 16:10

this. Agreed. See, play is horse shit. Yes. Yes. It's, but it's the sort of horse shit that we both would've come out with at the time. this show is a response to Vietnam. It's full of teenage youth and anger. And it does some sort of interesting things with the old characters and stuff, it is exactly what you want people who go to a prestigious liberal arts college in the middle of Massachusetts to be coming out with. Yes. if they're not doing that, my tax dollars have gone to waste. Please don't write in and tell me that Amherst College is a private institution. I already know that.

Emma 16:47

Oh yeah. is what you want from the youth.

Sam 16:50

The youth can either be writing tedious three hour rock operas mm-hmm. Or hang out under the bush shelter smoking smoking fags. And you and me were definitely, tedious. Three hour rock

Emma 17:02

opera. Yeah. Yeah. I was definitely a rock opera kid. Oh God. So as much as I dislike this, it is also, I am in this picture and I don't like what I see holding

Sam 17:13

up a mirror to you, Emma. some of our favorite bits of later Jim work appear in this. So we've already talked when we talked about, Total Eclipse of the Heart. That does, you know, the, the, the turnaround refrain comes in on Come in the

Emma 17:28

There's God speeding in here as

Sam 17:30

There's some God speeding. There is,"there are no lies on my body", which is a constant coda in the first act of this show and is one of the nice lines in Left in the Dark, which is a really lovely song. Yes. it's used a really weird way in this show, let me tell you Who Needs the Young, and a couple of other songs from this show are on Meat Loaf's final album. Yes. Braver Than We Are. Okay. I would like to talk about how much I quite like Who Needs The Young in this. Okay. get the gist. it's this dark, twisted cabaret type thing is very Brechtian like Brecht 1 0 1. He has it performed by the characters of Max and Emily who are young people playing, old people, singing about how young people are rubbish. And I think there is something really great in that, which is then utterly ruined when Meat Loaf, an old man, sings it on his final album.

Emma 18:41

Yeah. It's not got the same, uh,

Sam 18:43

there, there is something quite knowing in this show about how he's acknowledging that he's a young person, raging about old people, not understanding young people, but also that's a stupid idea and everybody ends up dead at the end we're all quite angry at each other and I don't really know why, but a America's fucked, anyway. the Mirrors monologue. appears in this, The Want Ad. So the Mirrors monologue, is given to Baal and it makes sense coming out of his mouth'cause he's a cult lunatic. Yes. The Want Ad sort of makes sense in the context of where it was. Mm. It comes in in a bit that is called the Voices of Civilization, where it's a cacophony of the whole tribe of young people reading out different stupid personal ads all overlapping and shouting over one another. Liberation through Pain brackets, Firebird. Have a listen to this. Act one has two things happen in it, right? We learn about the tribe and then, Baal gets interrogated by the police. And then I would say 45 minutes is spent initiating a new member into the tribe. Yeah. And this comes at the very end of that. In a minute, this will get good. I think I, mean, it may be that I was listening to this while driving through the beautiful Lake District

Emma 20:42

Was the screaming particularly, uh, accentuating Your Drive. So I think a lot of what's killed it for me is I know we're listening to a recording that's stood from the back of a room but I found that quite hard to pay attention to. Fair enough. and also. I think the singing's dreadful. Yeah. And the plinky plonky piano, it's like fucking school assemblies.

Sam 21:09

It is the plinky plonky piano. And some of this is ambitious and massive and incredible and some of it is working with what you've got.

Emma 21:17

and I appreciate working with what you've got.'cause that's what we're all about.

Sam 21:22

There is a full band with electric instruments who accompany some of the songs and They sound pretty damn good. They blow out the mic completely, so you can't really tell, you can't tell on our recording, but they do sound really quite competent and a cool new sound in musical theatre. then I, I will grant you some of the more traditional solos are accompanied by a plinky plonky piano. And Jim Steinman is playing the lead.

Emma 21:48

and all I, can see is I'm back at school. it's school assembly. We're singing a hymn. We're being told off for not singing it well enough.

Sam 21:57

being projected by an OHP onto the

Emma 21:59

being projected onto the back wall. A teacher who can play the piano is accompanying us. It is a joyless experience for all involved.

Sam 22:08

Take me down to the Firebird.

Emma 22:13

Yeah. that's the vibe, again, I know it's because they're working with what they've got. Yeah. And I fully expect our experience, this week in Jim's latest musical to be somewhat different to this.

Sam 22:25

this I should hope so. But again, this was so good that Joe Papp of the New York Shakespeare Festival went, I want that show on at my massive New York theatre festival. And as it happened, it never got performed several times. For various reasons, the, staging at the New York Shakespeare Festival didn't really happen. I think that was due to the nudity in the show. Yeah. And then they tried to stage it at the Arena theatre in Washington DC and had an incredible cast lined up for that. More on that later. But that didn't happen either. because Jim fell out with the producer or possibly the director. Either way, bloody Jim ruined it for himself. Yeah. But then this show, he rewrote into Neverland.

Emma 23:18

Yes. It's been his constant work.

Sam 23:22

This is his constant work in progress. isn't it? Indeed. So when we go see the Bat out of Hell, musical final, it is this, it is the final edit of this

Emma 23:31

with some banging songs in it

Sam 23:32

some better songs in it, and actors who can act because you messaged me about this the other day. All of the lines in this show are delivered at

Emma 23:44

such This is, so when I was listening to the first, section of it, the, bloods or ketchup it's delivered at such a pace and again, it smacks of students trying to be actors. Yes. when they're not really quite ready yet.

Sam 24:01

I think it, it is fair that I play the listeners a little bit of the historian's introduction.

Emma 24:05

do.

Sam 24:15

pause for laughter that didn't come. He continues in that tone for 15 more minutes. And I don't wanna cast any shade on Barry Keating, who was just trying his best to fit Jim Steinman monologue into a show, these are all student actors. Yeah. Having a great time. I dare say they're better than I was at,

Emma 25:11

I reckon Had I been there, you would've been in this, I would've been desperate to be in this. I'd have been all over it. Did you know that in 2019 at Amherst College,

Sam 25:27

was this performed again? This performed again.

Emma 25:28

again.

Sam 25:29

Oh, okay. Right. One of my notes is to offer you a choice of either seeing this performed with a big budget West End cast, or we go back in time to 1969 and watch Jim perform it.

Emma 25:48

Mm.

Sam 25:50

Listeners, while Emma's thinking about that, if you know anybody at Amherst College or was involved in that performance at Amherst College, please do let us know. chatoutofhell@gmail.com. I would love to speak to somebody who,

Emma 26:01

The historian was still played by Barry Keating. Nope,

Sam 26:06

he's not been busy then, has he? But that ruins the whole thing.'cause again, the historian is an old man and the joke of the show, ISN isn't, a young man, is that young men are playing old men, playing young men. Can I talk about a bit that I thought was really good? Baal is interrogated by the draft board. after he's spoken to the, psychiatrist, he basically announces the revolution is coming and the revolution kicks off. The historian comes on and does his narration. he describes the tribe attacking the city and his line, this is from the script."Ideally for these terrifying scenes of violence and chaos, we should be able to provide mammoth forces of police units and National Guard platoons."Unfortunately, these costumes are impossible to abstain, therefore, we've done the next best thing. Yeah. Ball and his tribe will confront a fierce squadron of killer nuns.

Emma 26:56

I did laugh at that.

Sam 26:57

"Why nuns you ask. Well, don't ask." I did laugh quite a lot That That was very funny. the play ends in the final battle between the nuns and the tribe. And everybody ends up dead in a big pile naked with Baal as the only survivor, delivering a stultifying monologue about the death of America. I really don't wanna talk about modern American politics, but some of it's quite prescient of that, to be honest. And we'll just leave that I think. Yeah.

Emma 27:30

So, did, this prompt some theatrical memories for you?

Sam 27:33

I do want to talk about student theatre creations'cause I, I do have a tale to tell. Excellent.

Emma 27:38

Let's talk about student theatre.

Sam 27:40

Hey guys. Hey

Emma 27:41

Hey guys. Let's talk about student theatre.

Sam 27:44

Talk to your kids about student theatre. We had to write our own play. Mm-hmm. Or a, a short piece, I guess a piece of theatre. I cannot quite remember exactly what the brief was, but ultimately it was a play that had to be about, prejudice, I think. Something along those lines. Yeah. Okay. So you, you're picturing, a group of 16 to 18 year olds? Yeah. have been handed one of the most difficult topics in society to deal with. We've been told sort this out. Write a half hour theatre piece. That'll really tell everybody to think. Yeah. Yeah. and let me just provide some context here I'm from a town called Scarborough, on the, coast of England, which is one of the whitest parts of England. In many places, England is, is a very, cosmopolitan nation in the big cities, in Scarborough. I could have counted on one hand the number of non-white faces I saw growing up.

Emma 28:42

Yeah.

Sam 28:43

So, you know, hand those kids this show about

Emma 28:47

prejudice. Okay.

Sam 28:50

It's not quite going where you think, but it's close. So what we came up with, Emma, uh, uh, let me reiterate. We didn't want to do this, but we had to do something for the brief. It's okay. You'll still be friends with me afterwards. it's charmingly naive, not... the show. And I, I think this was the name of a show within a show. Okay. Because we'd been doing our Brecht, it was about a game show called Society Pressures, in which the host, for some reason was just a prick to everybody who came on the game show. Yeah. You're picturing that. Yep. Why would he go on this game show? Don't know. Mad was I, I don't think we ever went into that much depth, but, the host of Society Pressures was just a prick to everybody, you know, in the ways that you shouldn't be pricks to people. But also he wasn't that much of a prick in the way that,'cause we all knew, you know, that was bad. So we, we, I I, I was about to say, we towed a very fine line. We didn't, what we did was shy very far away from that line ineffectually, vaguely implying that this guy was, all the bad stuff. But where I'm going with this, Emma, oh God. there was a, I don't know how she came into it. There was a pop starlet featured in it at one point, and then we did a news report of how she'd killed herself after being on the show.'cause the guy was so mean. Yeah. Don't ask 16 year olds to to write this. here's the bit that I've been building towards. Was I, played just some guy who's flatmate was thinking of going on the show. Okay. Okay. And we had a little scene about, wow, you're thinking about going on that show, but that guy's such a prick. And then I left the stage. Um, and she had a monologue, explaining to the audience that what you've not realized is that I'm actually Black. So, you know, that. Thank God.

Emma 31:01

So think on.

Sam 31:03

Yeah. What do you think of the Dream Engine now?

Emma 31:08

I mean, I'm so glad that nobody actually blacked

Sam 31:10

Oh God. No, no, no, no, no. We were so earnest.

Emma 31:17

so sweet.

Sam 31:17

yeah,

Emma 31:18

Um, but yeah,

Sam 31:19

that I genuinely don't know what was expected of us as a, as that age, probably the whitest cohort of drama students anywhere in the country.

Emma 31:27

Well, you say that. Oh, But welcome to small town Nottinghamshire in the late nineties, early two thousands. It turns out

Sam 31:37

It turns out Emma wrote Society Pressures

Emma 31:39

we had to produce a piece of theatre. Again, it's all from scratch. Yeah. And so we were given a selection of starting points. Yeah. They like to give starting points to see where you go with it. And so we were given a, a few options to choose from. I wanted to go in a different direction and look at something to do with, differences in society like that. But somehow we ended up on the Miners' Strike as a theme.

Sam 32:04

That's fine. That's a thing that you've got some experience of.

Emma 32:07

of, But Sam, in order to discover more about the Miners' Strike, bear in mind we're, we're from an ex-mining community Retford didn't have mines, but Worksop certainly did. as in a lot of the surrounding villages that a lot of the kids came from. And so I suppose a lot of the other kids had got secondhand experience of that time.'cause the Miners' Strike was happening around the time that a lot of us were sort of born or maybe just a little bit before. and so you'd think, you'd think that with this wealth of knowledge available to us that we would've done some kind of research. But why do research when you can just make shit up?

Sam 32:49

Oh, no.

Emma 32:51

Oh, I've blocked a lot of it out. it was terribly earnest sixth fold theatre. Yeah. and I think the, the terribly earnest nature of all the sixth fold theatre that I did put me off pursuing my dreams of theatre beyond that. After sixth form, that's when performance dropped out of my life for a really long time. my confidence was knocked by it all, I think, and I thought I'd go into a, a quieter. World. and part of me regrets not pursuing it. but also I'm quite glad that I've come back to performance as an adult with experience of things.

Sam 33:27

Uh, I'm the same. did have aspirations of being an actor at that age. Yeah. And I was gently steered away from that idea. Yeah. partly because an actor's life is very difficult and my parents came from, working class backgrounds. Yeah. And were kind of aspirational for us to have better lives. Yeah. But also because they could all see that I wasn't a very good actor back then. Probably still aren't now.

Emma 33:50

Please come and see our shows though. yeah?

Sam 33:52

Oh, you want to go to RADA, do you?

Emma 33:54

do you? right.

Sam 33:57

have You considered sitting in a library instead? Listeners, please tell us about your over earnest, excruciating, high school and college theatre experiences. chatoutofhell@gmail.com. We all know you have them.

Emma 34:12

we would

Sam 34:13

love to hear them. This is a safe space

Emma 34:17

you're in. Good company.

Sam 34:18

Absolutely. I don't think any of you have got a worse story than Society Pressures, but if you do chatoutofhell@gmail.com it had a theme tune. Oh. And in fact, I've just remembered. I also did, I played the voiceover guy who had introduced the show. ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Society Pressures. And then I'd have a bit of a chat with the host and he would insult me and my, I think, I think we got some mother-in-law jokes in there. Oh, Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I went surfing with my mother-in-law and then he said something awful. Yeah, If any of you were in Society Pressures, um, Yeah, no wonder we all lost touch chatoutofhell@gmail.com Emma, would you like to hear the copy from the print ad that was in the student newspaper? Yes."Turned on! A new kind of rock theatre piece spans the whole range of theatre from buffoonery to boiling rage, painful, passionate streaked with a clown's humour. It churns together in a mixture of media, including a rock band with synthesizer, the stuff from which our fantasies are spun. A maelstrom of energy and ecstasy unlike anything you've ever experienced in the theatre. And a world premiere" did that in an American accent, sort of regretted it about four words in.

Emma 35:53

Well done. for committing to the bit though.

Sam 35:54

Thank you. But you couldn't hear that my accent, right? That wouldn't have

Emma 35:57

worked. No. probably would go and see that if I'd seen

Sam 36:01

Yeah. Written. do you have an answer to my question then? Would you like to see a Big West End production or would you like to go back in time and see where it all began?

Emma 36:10

I'd like to go and see where it all began, because then you've got more context to work with as well. And I think context is important for this particular piece and the atmosphere and everything. You know, the crappy recording doesn't capture,

Sam 36:26

it's never the same. It's

Emma 36:26

the same. it's, I'd go back in time and how about you?

Sam 36:31

I am really caught'cause the recording is nonsense and the script is utter horse shit. Yes. But somehow everybody loved it in the theatre and therefore I would really like to see what happens if I put Cameron Macintosh's money behind this, if you know what I mean. Fiction values. Yeah. If they weren't, if they got actors to play roles. Some thoughts from Jim himself on this piece. He calls the character of Baal. Somewhere between Che Guevara, Mick Jagger, and Billy the Kid.

Emma 37:06

Oh, Jim. Jimmy, Jimmy, Jim, Jims.

Sam 37:09

Jim Jims. This is one of bits that lets it down is Baal is this interesting, charismatic cult leader. And Jim is Jim Steinman. I'm not joining that guy's cult. No way. This is a quote from Bob Sather who is in the cast of the production in New York City. That didn't happen."Barry Keating played Ezra Pound to Steiny's TS Elliot" Steiny Steiny."He took the huge unstageable script Stein wrote, drastically edited it, and turned it into a brilliant and effective play". This is, this is the edited performable version.

Emma 37:48

I'm sorry. What? Oh, God.

Sam 37:51

you, Barry.

Emma 37:52

Can you imagine what Jim's written? Then?

Sam 37:54

See if you got that time machine, you could go into Jim's dorm room and find the script under all those mattresses es

Emma 38:04

mattress pile of rotting

Sam 38:09

Barry went on to a highly visible career on the New York stage. Where he wrote and directed a number of award-winning musicals. Barry knows what he's doing. Yeah. Emma, would you like a quiz?

Emma 38:20

Yeah.

Sam 38:21

Here's three facts about the Dream Engine. Dream Dreams,

Emma 38:26

engine.

Sam 38:28

which of these is true? Mm-hmm. Is it A David Bowie played Baal in the New York run that didn't happen. Is it B Richard Gere played Baal in the Arena Stage Washington production, which didn't happen? Or is it C a review in the Mount Holyoke Review said,"it says something about our culture, something delightfully devious. Probably that a wink wink show has become a hit. Like the story, it tells the Dream Engine is a one night stand, but you won't forget her name in the morning." One of those is true.

Emma 39:07

I'm gonna, oh, who am I gonna go with? Oh, no, because I feel like the review seems the most likely, but I know your tricksy ways. Wilkinson. Oh, let's just, let's go with a, let's go with Bowie.

Sam 39:25

Bowie didn't play Baal in the New York run, but not without both sides being interested. there were talks of recruiting him. but it just didn't quite happen. There was a piece in Billboard Magazine, you know, that little industry rumors section. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. David Bowie in serious negotiations to play the Broadway lead in Dream Engine. Wow. Yeah. That. Is a role that is written for somebody like David Bowie,. So is it B or C Richard Gere or the

Emma 39:55

I'll go with the review.

Sam 39:56

The review. Emma. That was a review of. Macarena,

Emma 40:03

I knew this was coming. I knew it, and yet I still, ah,

Sam 40:08

"it says something about our culture, something delightfully devious. Probably that a Wink wink Club song has become an all ages approved dance step and novelty hit. Like the story it tells Macarena is a one night stand, but you won't forget her name in the morning." And you'll be hearing more Macarena throughout this series. Yeah. Richard Gere Gere was playing Baal in the Washington DC production.

Emma 40:30

Wow. Yeah.

Sam 40:30

Yeah.

Emma 40:31

He must have been so disappointed for that not to have come off

Sam 40:35

it's time for us to rate this musical Emma.

Emma 40:37

Oh, is it?

Sam 40:38

And as always, this is a Jim Steinman work. So we have to rate this on our patented Jim Steinman Rating Scale, which goes Jim Steinman at the top, Jim Fineman for his average stuff, and Jim Declineman for the rubbish that he churned out. But Emma, what's this? I know what you think it is. I'm not, I don't disagree.

Emma 41:00

So is it a,

Sam 41:00

Declineman? It is a Jim Declineman.

Emma 41:03

For a number of

Sam 41:04

reasons, for a number of reasons. It, I, I don't think this is ever gonna be an incredible, this isn't ever gonna be a Les Mis. Even if I do get Cameron Macintosh put it on, it's gonna be an interesting piece of weird where you go, oh, okay. I see where he built up from.

Emma 41:20

it's fringe. It's fringe theatre.

Sam 41:22

Oh, you are absolutely right. You could put this on at Edinburgh Fringe. Yeah. And sell out while making a colossal loss.

Emma 41:30

Let's put on a show.

Sam 41:33

I sort of am tempted now. This is good, interesting fringe theatre that I would like to see somebody perform properly,

Emma 41:42

or would like to participate in adequately.

Sam 41:48

Thanks for the review,

Emma 41:50

Talking about myself as well.

Sam 41:51

Oh yeah. Fair enough.

Emma 41:53

could play the auspicious girl.

Sam 41:55

Oh, well you can either play Girl or Emily,

Emma 42:00

who knows. Or maybe I could be the historian.

Sam 42:02

Oh, oh, that's gender. Flip the whole thing. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, Take that. We're going. Society Pressures on this

Emma 42:11

thing. and what you didn't know was I was a girl all along.

Sam 42:20

Good. grief.

Emma 42:22

Listeners, if you want to sponsor us to take the Dream Engine to Edinburgh.

Sam 42:28

If you are Cameron Macintosh and you'd like to pay us the put on a Performance of the Dream Engine brackets gender flipped version, do drop us an email chatoutofhell@gmail.com. Emma, what songs are we gonna bring next time? Ooh, because listeners, we are getting back on the road next time. Yes, we're diving deep into proper Meat

Emma 42:49

songs

Sam 42:49

songs. Yay.

Emma 42:51

I'm going back to Welcome to the Neighborhood and I'm going for running for the Red Light brackets I Got a Life

Sam 42:58

And I'll be going back to the album Dead Ringer, which it turned out is actually quite good for the song. Dead Ringer for Love, that's got Cher on it. It can be bad. So listeners, you can do your homework on those. You'll have a lovely time. Give'em a listen. Do you have any thoughts on those songs? Do you have any thoughts on the Dream Engine? Were you at Amherst College in 2019? Do you know anybody who was at Amherst College in 2019? Would you like to pay us to put on a performance of the Dream Engine? What was your earnest student theatre experience? It's okay. You are among friends. Let us know. chatoutofhell@gmail.com. Did you see Meat Loaf on a water skiing trip to the beach?

Emma 43:35

I have some other business.

Sam 43:37

Emma has some other business halfway through my traditional wrap up speech. It's okay. Let us know if you saw Loaf doing that chatoutofhell@gmail.com Emma, AOB

Emma 43:47

This comes out on Monday. that turns out to be the first anniversary of Chat out of Hell. I've bought you an anniversary present, Sam. Oh. So in, marriages there are specific,,categories for, anniversary presents. Yes. Yeah. Uh, and in podcasting there are different so the podcasting one year anniversary is a bottle of A1 Sauce Happy anniversary, Sam.

Sam 44:14

Hashtag dear a one steak sauce. We don't need your sauce. I've got a bottle now.

Emma 44:20

Thank you very

Sam 44:21

much. original Steak sauce. Next time we're recording at mine, I'll do you a bacon sandwich.

Emma 44:26

Delicious. and ruin it with some A1 sauce

Sam 44:30

with some

Emma 44:30

A1

Sam 44:30

one sauce. Great. In marinades. Marvelous. Thank you

Emma 44:35

much. You're welcome. I thought it was a timely

Sam 44:38

A lovely gift. I knew our anniversary was coming up, but I didn't

Emma 44:42

I I had a little look back in, It's, we've been doing this for a year. We

Sam 44:47

have been wasting our

Emma 44:49

Good. Could have got a job

Sam 44:53

But Emma, how are you gonna get a job without a thorough knowledge of

Emma 44:58

the Dream Engine?

Sam 44:59

So that was Chat out of Hell. Thank you so much for listening. It's gonna be a interesting edit, this one, but luckily it's a long weekend. We are gonna go hang up our headphones and by the time you're listening to this, we'll be queuing for the opening of the Bat out of Hell Musical. Even though we've got tickets, we can just, just go. We don't have to camp outside the theatre for two days, but we're gonna do it anyway. ready. Yeah. so we'll see you all after we've seen the Bat out of Hell musical. Changed people. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll see you all in another two weeks time for another episode of Chat out of Hell. Bye

Emma 45:37

Bye

Sam 45:38

Bow Now.

Emma 45:41

Bing.