7.2 - The Future Ain't What it Used to Be | If It Ain't Broke, Break It

Chat out of Hell dives into the soundtrack of the awful Jim Steinman / MTV Wuthering Heights movie this episode, and surfaces with something wonderful. But also a lot of dismay. The wonderful probably does outstrip the dismay but it is a close run thing. Oh, Jim.

PLUS we finally find a decent link between Meat Loaf and Star Trek, Sam tries to remember how a Bajoran space pope died, and a considered chat about what happens when you're creatively tied forever to someone you resent. It's good stuff!

Chat out of Hell is a is a review podcast: all music extracts are used for review/illustrative purposes. To hear the songs in full please buy them from your local record shop or streaming platform. Don't do a piracy. Music extracts on this episode:

The Future Ain't What it Used to Be by Pandora's Box from the album Original Sin (1989)
The Future Ain't What it Used to Be demo by Patti Russo (2001)
The Future Ain't What it Used to Be by Erika Christensen from the MTV Wuthering Heights sountrack (2003)
The Future Ain't What it Used to Be by Meat Loaf from Bat out of Hell III (2006)
The Future Ain't What it Used to Be by Jennifer Jones, live at the World AIDS Day Concert in Durban (2000)
If it Ain't Broke, Break It by Meat Loaf from the album Bat out of Hell III (2006)

Transcript

Sam 0:00

What is this?

Emma 0:01

This. Chat Out Hell, the jukebox podcast mostly about the works of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman, although sometimes it's about sausages, sauces for meat products, and or the presenters' various emotional breakdowns relating to the works of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman, who is Meat Loaf.

Sam 0:20

Well, this is gonna seem frivolous after you've said that, but Meat Loaf was an and singer who in 2001 sold a house to Greg Kinnear. Who's Jim Steinman?

Emma 0:30

Jim Steinman was a writer, musician, and singer of sorts. He loved musical theatre and wanted to bring rock and roll to it, but at the time he was looking at doing that the only place with enough money to fund his theatrical ambitions would be Broadway. Of Broadway at the time, Jim said "the audiences are fairly old. I mean, they're very old. In fact, they're the kind of people who go home at night and take off their jewels and sleep in formaldehyde until the morning."

Sam 1:00

That's what I picture him doing

Emma 1:01

though. Who are we?

Sam 1:03

We are Sam Wilkinson and Emma Crossland, and we are the leading Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf experts in this room.

Emma 1:11

I dunno, I think Maisie might know more

Sam 1:12

Yeah, my dog, Maisie probably is. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, welcome to Chat out of Hell Bow. Now. Now, Now. Hello. Hi Emma. This is Chat Out of Hell.

Emma 1:26

It is.

Sam 1:26

It's a Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman podcast where we both go away on a mission. And that mission is to listen to a Meat Meat Loaf or Jim Steinman song.

Emma 1:36

As missions go, it's quite easy.

Sam 1:37

it's fair. Yeah. We're not the SAS, we're not Bear Grylls drinking his own piss, but we are going away listening to songs by Meat Loaf or Jim Steinman.

Emma 1:47

And sometimes it can feel worse than drinking your own piss.

Sam 1:51

we're in for a lovely show today. we go away, we listen to those songs, we learn a little bit about them, depending on how busy the rest of our week was. And then we come back to rate those songs on our Meat Loaf and or Jim Steinman song rating scales. Sometimes we have a bit of a chat about our personal lives, not today. We're going straight in. Bosh. This episode because we studied Jim Steinman's adaptation of Wuthering Heights for MTV. A couple of episodes ago, we've decided to pick the two Steinman songs that were on that soundtrack. So Emma, what have you brought?

Emma 2:24

I've got, if It Ain't Broke, Break It from Bat Out of Hell Three.

Sam 2:28

And I've got the Future Ain't What it Used to Be, which Jim Steinman wrote for his girl band, Pandora's Box back in 1989. And we're gonna start with that one. 'cause it's lengthy. very long. And the amount of time we've got left after it will determine how long we've got to talk about the song. But it is a banger. So listeners go away. There's so many versions of this. Start with the Pandora's Box one, like we are gonna, go find it on YouTube, or well find it on YouTube before the under sixteens curfew kicks in. Hashtag satire. Is that gonna work, do you think? Will that still be relevant in two weeks time? Oh, Okay.

Emma 3:09

Okay. That one's gonna be around for a

Sam 3:10

a while Oh. But which of our listeners do you think are gonna be covered by this curfew?

Emma 3:17

Absolutely none of them.

Sam 3:19

Find the Future Ain't What it Used to Be on any of your musical platforms of choice. Listen to it now like we're about to, and we'll see you all in oh, 10 minutes. The future ain't what it used to be. Pandora's Box 1989. Do you like it, Emma?

Emma 3:47

I do, yes. I do like it. I like Pandora's Box. Yeah. When I first discovered them I was genuinely delighted and remained so I think they are a lot of fun, and this is a great version.

Sam 3:58

I absolutely love this song. And I, it's rare that I get to, you know, we've gone through a lot of the good stuff already. Yeah. But I've listened to a lot of versions of this and nobody can get it wrong, which is lovely. and there's one absolutely wonderful version coming up. It's about hope and hopelessness in equal measure.

Emma 4:17

Yeah. It's a, it is a good Jim.

Sam 4:20

You've got the cliche song title Uhhuh and there are cliches throughout the lyrics of

Emma 4:25

course, it goes on for far too long

Sam 4:26

Yeah. 10, 10 minutes, 35, 5 acts worth of song. About five minutes in is the bit where the piano kicks in to say song's starting now, a minute and a half of men going, ooh, at the beginning.

Emma 4:44

What more could you want?

Sam 4:47

This is track 14. It's the final track on the original release of the album. It's a really good album ender of a song. Yeah. The song dives between the two perspectives of, oh, it's not very good. Used to be good. Oh, it's not bad, it's good now! And that the gist and ends on that more hopeful tone of, no, now the future is good. Pandora's Box. What was the last thing that came out of Pandora's Box, Emma? Hope, course, he's gone and done a mythology on us.

Emma 5:17

oh. Jimmy. Jimmy. Jim. Jims.

Sam 5:20

Rim. Jim. Jim Rim. Jim. Jim

Emma 5:24

I feel like Pandora's Box was Jim let loose Yes. Without as many restrictions as Bat out of Hell when he'd got Todd Rundgren. Yeah. Trying to reign him in, make him behave a bit.

Sam 5:38

Yeah.

Emma 5:39

Pandora's Box is like full indulgent which is probably why it was not even remotely successful.

Sam 5:45

No. And just to recap the success of this album for people who didn't listen to earlier episodes on it. I think number eight or so in South Africa. Oh

Emma 5:54

yeah.

Sam 5:54

Barely noticed in Europe. No US release whatsoever. Which is a massive shame, but also it's his own fault.

Emma 6:01

It's got some absolute bangers on it. Yeah. And then there's the really weird shit as well.

Sam 6:07

Yeah.

Emma 6:08

And it makes the album slightly difficult to listen to.

Sam 6:11

Yeah. So I'm gonna turn to Mick Wall, author of Like A Bat Out of Hell, our reference book. He's got a really interesting theory about why Pandora's Box failed. Jim spent so much time bigging up this kind of cool rock chicks, they're gonna kick your ass and be good at singing, and they're better than the boys and they're so fucking cool. In fact, Jim said this was the Spice Girls six years before the Spice Girls. I sort of get what he meant by that. You know, the Spice Girls also had that marketing image of here are some fucking cool girls.

Emma 6:45

Yeah.

Sam 6:45

Slightly different target audience, but same idea. Yeah. Mick's theory is: everybody else Jim has worked with Meat Loaf, Bonnie Tyler, Barbra Streisand, ultimately they're losers.

Emma 6:58

Yeah.

Sam 6:58

Jim's songs work because they're heroic songs sung by losers. And this is cool people being cool in your face,

Emma 7:06

and

Sam 7:07

but with Jim Steinman at the back, Cool. People being cool, and Jim Steinman.

Emma 7:16

Losers singing big, powerful songs is much more interesting as well.

Sam 7:20

Yeah.

Emma 7:21

Yeah I could really agree with that perspective.

Sam 7:26

Mick's opinion of this song "the ending belong to yet another love times death, black swans, green Moons and deviant sex, done with a tender smile master ballad. The Future ain't what it used to be. Stretch like bandages across 10 blooded, but unbounded minutes of pomp and circumstance. As a show closer, it's a peach. Just when you thought Tym couldn't possibly shoot his Spangled vision any further over the horizon, he takes it one giant leap further."

Emma 7:53

Shoot his spangled vision.

Sam 7:56

He had fun writing that book, didn't he?

Emma 7:58

isn't it?

Sam 7:59

Free

Emma 8:00

grief

Sam 8:01

Steinmanian in its phrasing.

Emma 8:04

I've never heard it called a spangled vision before.

Sam 8:12

Dead. Good song. Lead vocals are Gina Taylor.

Emma 8:15

Mm-hmm. Deleria

Sam 8:16

Wilde. The non-existent fourth member of the group is credited as featured vocals. We think that's actually Holly Sherwood. Roy Bitten on piano for this one. And of course we've got all the usual gang, Steve Buslowe's on bass Eric Troyer and Rory Dodd are one backing vocals. It's just all the classic crew. It's a shame that it was buried on an album that didn't sell. And I understand why Meat Loaf later picked it up for Bat out of Hell Three, which listen to in a minute. A lot of other people have covered it too though. We've got covers by Danielle Steers. We've talked about Danielle Steers before. West End singer. She was in the original run of the bat

Emma 8:56

Oh, yeah. Yeah. She's

Sam 8:57

released an album of Jim covers. Yeah. Named The Future Ain't What it Used to Be. Her version's good.

Emma 9:04

Good.

Sam 9:04

Her version's good. We're not even gonna listen to it though, 'cause we've got so much to get through. But it's

9:08

very good, Danielle, well done. That's so

Emma 9:10

patronizing.

Sam 9:11

Well done. You

Emma 9:12

Well done. Love. What a clever girl

Sam 9:14

What a clever girl. What a clever girl. Patti Russo recorded a demo in the early two thousands. Uhhuh have a bang on this. Patti Russo with Mark Alexander on piano recording a demo in Mark Alexander's apartment in one take. Show off. So that was considered for the soundtrack to the MTV Wuthering Heights. but they didn't use it. No. They didn't use Patti's version. Madness. I really like that. Mm-hmm.

Emma 9:44

Mm-hmm.

Sam 9:44

So this is recorded, I think, before Patti starts working with Meat Loaf. I get my timeline quite right, It's just a really good song for showing off female vocalists in particular. Yeah. We'll have a listen to the version off Wuthering Heights. So this was by Erika Christensen.

Emma 10:04

Later on when we cover my song, I've also got the version from the Weathering Heights soundtrack. And having just heard that I feel similar to the version for my song. Really nice vocal, definitely aimed at a trendier MTV crowd. Yes,

Sam 10:20

absolutely.

Emma 10:21

so more of an indie girl.

Sam 10:22

Indie girl, Erica played Kathy or Kate as it was in the film. I'm fairly certain this song played over the closing credits. I don't intend to ever go back and check. We had Heathcliff rescued his daughter from what's his chops over the valley, and then the ghost of Kathy was looking over them.

Emma 10:41

Singing

Sam 10:41

this. So yeah, she's not a terrible vocalist by any account, but it's just a bit, as you say, MTV Generationy.

Emma 10:50

Yeah.

Sam 10:52

It's, You're too young to be singing about the future, although you are dead, So 50 50 in it. I get why they wanted the star of the film to be singing this song on the soundtrack, but... less impactful it.

Emma 11:06

Yeah. But then the more powerful versions that we've heard, yeah. Probably wouldn't have gone with the vibe of the film.

Sam 11:15

Yeah, let's make a shit film. I

Emma 11:17

it.

Sam 11:17

Yes. It's

Emma 11:18

not quite what I mean, but yeah.

Sam 11:21

Anyway, Emma Meat Loaf's gonna rescue us now. Meat Loaf picks this up in 2006 for Bat out of Hell Three, the third Bat out of Hell album, which Jim was notoriously not actually involved in. So Meat's going around, hoovering up a few spare Jim Steinman songs. This one's a duet with Jennifer Hudson. Yes.

Emma 11:38

Yes, it is.

Sam 11:40

yes it

Emma 11:40

Yes, it's, I really like that.

Sam 11:50

It's a lovely version, isn't it?

Emma 11:51

Yeah. We can be quite mean about late stage Meat Loaf. But this is great. I think he

Sam 11:57

he

Emma 11:58

does

Sam 11:58

he's

Emma 11:59

duets lovely. Yeah.

Sam 12:00

Yeah. I think he made a really good choice of duet partner on that as well. Yes. Do you know Jennifer Hudson at all?

Emma 12:05

Ah, the name rings a bell.

Sam 12:06

She was on American Idol the year before. Ah, so this is pretty much her first professional

Emma 12:12

Oh, wow. What an interesting

Sam 12:14

park, But really smashed that. Yeah. Yeah. I can picture Meat Loaf as the kind of man who would've sat down to watch American Idol every week though.

Emma 12:21

Yeah.

Sam 12:22

He would've tuned in about him He would've been at home tuning in, going, yeah, she's really good. Yeah. Somebody ring her up. She went on to be in the Dream Girls film and has had a really good career in Broadway

Emma 12:32

Fantastic.

Sam 12:33

Meat Loaf, of course, is not the only singer to turn a solo into a cross generational hit as Lou Bega would attest. In 2019, the singer of the Worldwide Smash Mambo Number Five, released the song

Emma 12:46

Scatman and Hatman,

Sam 12:47

a tribute to Scatman John sampling his song, Ski Bap Ba Da Ba Bop. I'm genuinely not making that up. And it's also a bit of a banger.

Emma 12:57

How delighted were you to discover this, Sam? absolutely

Sam 12:59

excited, Emma.

Emma 13:00

I mean, I love the way that you've tenuously shoehorned it in as well,

Sam 13:04

Welcome back, Lou Bega. Lovely to see you. We don't have time now, but I'm gonna play you it when we're

Emma 13:09

Oh, wow. I cannot wait.

Sam 13:13

We've just been racing through versions, but I've got one more to play for you, which I do think is really special. Okay. This is sung by Jennifer Jones, a South African singer. It's sung for the World AIDS Day

Emma 13:33

That's really quite something, isn't it? Good grief. It's a song that's got a lot of meaning threaded through it. Yeah. And performed like that in that context. Yeah. Is genuinely staggering. Yeah. away,

Sam 13:48

I've listened to this version half a dozen times in the past couple of days. I get goosebumps

Emma 13:53

Yeah.

Sam 13:54

It's incredible.

Emma 13:55

it just goes to show that when Jim's on his game, he's really on his game. yeah. Wow.

Sam 14:03

all right though. I'm gonna bring Jim down a

Emma 14:06

peg minute.

Sam 14:08

yeah, that was Jennifer Jones singing the Feature Ain't What it Used to Be at the World Aids Day concert in the year 2000. The song itself had been chosen as the official anthem for South Africa's HIV prevention campaign, and it's really, you know, absolutely incredibly effective of that. Yeah, I can't, I've not been able to find out exactly why they chose this song or what the link is with Jim. But. Well, we've been too nice to Jim so far, so,

Emma 14:40

Oh God.

Sam 14:41

about the album itself. I don't have the quote to hand, so I'm gonna have to paraphrase slightly. Jim sees the album, or he wrote the album as a response to the HIV crisis and the fact that, yeah, that's the right face that sex is now much more of a mysterious and dangerous thing than it used to be, which... read the room, perhaps Yeah. I mean, sure, that's a legit response, but also it's not really your thing to Oh, yeah. Yep.

Emma 15:15

Okay.

Sam 15:16

Yeah.

Emma 15:17

I don't have any words words to say about that.

Sam 15:20

Another song on this album is No Such Thing as Safe Sex When it Comes to Loving You. It's very much a an album written from a position of

Emma 15:30

it comes from a place of privilege, doesn't it?

Sam 15:31

Thank you. That's the word I was looking for. Privilege. Yes. But on the other hand, that song was taken put into a much more effective and made into something powerful and hope inspiring.

Emma 15:43

we say it comes from a place of privilege. This is the

Sam 15:47

89.

Emma 15:48

So yeah. It's, the eighties opinions are very different.

Sam 15:52

Yeah. Yeah.

Emma 15:53

I'm, oh God. I'm trying to

Sam 15:55

so this Yeah, I know. And I think it is important to, for us to bear in mind we have the knowledge of hindsight that Jim might not have had access to. Yeah. So, you know, there is that, but at the same time it's a bit theme parky when you think about it from that perspective. Good song though innit? bang, of. Oh, Would you like a quiz to take the taste away. Yeah.

Emma 16:22

Yeah. Let's have a palate cleansing quiz.

Sam 16:24

Okay, so there's two real Jim quotes and one fake one about this album. Is it A: "I really wanted to do a girl group very badly. Either that or I just wanted girls." Is it B: "It's not crude or rude with bad language. The men and the women are both enjoying the vibrancy of youth." Is it C? "When I was seven years old, I had this fortune teller who turned out to be a hooker, disguised as a fortune teller, so I dunno how valid it was, tell my fortune in Times Square." One of those is fake.

Emma 17:00

Oh the most, oh, I'm, fuck it. I'm gonna say C is fake. That's the fortune teller.

Sam 17:09

Okay, but you think I made that up?

Emma 17:10

I don't think you made it up. I think you've plucked it from somewhere else.

Sam 17:13

that's a legit concern

Emma 17:14

Yeah.

Sam 17:15

I often do

Emma 17:15

But now you've said it, it's obviously true.

Sam 17:17

yeah, it's who else would that detail about it being a hooker? So it wasn't c.

Emma 17:26

No. Fine.

Sam 17:29

B, "it's not crude or rude with bad language. The men and the women are both enjoying the vibrancy vibrancy of youth." Of course, that wasn't J, that's Lou Bega on Mambo Number Five.

Emma 17:40

Of course it is.

Sam 17:41

"A cute little song, not crude or rude with bad language. The men and women are both enjoying the vibrancy of youth. I was no predator." That's oh God. that is in the, that's because he said this in response to a question about why are you singing about all these women in bikinis.

Emma 18:01

God.

Sam 18:02

have absolutely done Lou Bega over with the context of that quote.

Emma 18:08

I'm sure he'll write in and complain.

Sam 18:11

On why he formed Pandora's Box. I really wanted to do a girl group very badly. Either that or I just wanted girls. I'm not sure which it was, but I was trying to combine professional and personal concerns." Ugh. Ugh. That's

Emma 18:24

so creepy, so

Sam 18:25

horrible.

Emma 18:27

Oh, Jim,

Sam 18:29

How did such a lovely album. Not a lovely, but a great album. Come from that.

Emma 18:35

Oh, what a creep.

Sam 18:36

When I was seven years old, I had this fortune teller, who turned out to be a hooker disguised as a fortune teller, so I don't know how valid this was, tell my fortune in Times Square. And she said I would spend my whole life in an ultimately self-destructive drive to astonish people. So every ambition I have is to keep astonishing and amplifying normal life." Do you know what that makes me think of? Macbeth. The witches come along and say you are gonna be the Thane of Cawdor. You are gonna be the king. And that's all he can think of now. Yeah, that fortune teller slash sex worker could said, "you're gonna spend the rest of your life just sitting quietly reading." And that would've been it. There you go. The Future ain't What it Used to Be. Do you wanna hear what the people of the internet have to say?

Emma 19:20

I do.

Sam 19:20

I'm afraid I couldn't find anything. All these different versions of the song, no weirdos, no idiots, all just universal praise with nobody having anything stupid to say.

Emma 19:32

boring, isn't it?

Sam 19:34

It's boring, but I think it leads us neatly into our rating of this song. Yes. The scale for Jim Steinman for his finest songs to Jim Fineman for some all right songs all the way down to Jim Declineman for the sort of songs that he was probably thinking about when he said things like, I really wanted girls. But Emma. What rating is this?

Emma 19:54

obviously a Jim Steinman.

Sam 19:56

It's such a Jim

Emma 19:57

Mm-hmm. It's exactly what you want. All the various

Sam 20:00

All the various versions are brilliant. And yeah, the Jennifer Jones version just shows the heights to which a Steinman in the hands of the right artist Mm. is a Jim Steinman, solid

Emma 20:13

Gold Jim Steinman.

Sam 20:14

Ding ding, ding, ding, ding.

Emma 20:17

Is that the sound of the gold. Gold, yeah.

Sam 20:18

of gold. Yeah. Emma, what song have you

Emma 20:22

Oh, well, it's time to bring us back down to Earth a little bit with If It Ain't Broke, Break It, which is also from Bat Out of Hell Three and MTV's Wuthering Heights soundtrack. So we're gonna go with Meat Loaf first of all. Go away and have a listen. There's no video for this one, so just have a listen on whatever device you like to listen to things on.

Sam 20:45

Okay. But before, I'm just gonna put the lasagne your. in the oven.

Emma 20:51

Hope you

Sam 20:52

away. Put a lasagna in the oven. Listen to if it ain't break, broke it.

Emma 20:56

it ain't break, broke it. If It Ain't Broke, Break it from Bat out of Hell Three. Sam, what do you think?

Sam 21:15

It's backwards baseball cap time, Emma.

Emma 21:18

It's time to rawwwwk,

Sam 21:20

but in a very specific early two thousands way. In spite of myself, I like it.

Emma 21:25

It's quite daft, isn't it

Sam 21:26

I mean it's nice as a little palette, cleanser after we've just had some serious chat, but yeah, it's fun.

Emma 21:32

So this is written by Jim Steinman Uhhuh. It doesn't feel like it.

Sam 21:36

No. So was it written for...?

Emma 21:40

it was written for Wuthering Heights.

Sam 21:41

Okay. I was wondering about that. Cause the versions we saw in the film were a bit rubbish.

Emma 21:46

I have sent a

Sam 21:47

link Yeah.

Emma 21:47

soundtrack. So we'll have a listen to that in a little bit.

Sam 21:49

Yeah. Turns out what it needed was a lot more oomph.

Emma 21:52

I think my favourite bit of it is all the horns.

Sam 21:55

There's some good horns.

Emma 21:56

I'm a bit of a slut for horns. I

Sam 21:59

I

Emma 21:59

say. genuinely couldn't think of another way of phrasing it. How awful is that? I like horns. There, that's better, isn't it? I quite enjoyed that. I was quite surprised Yeah. When they kicked in. I think a bit of horns in a heavy rock song a lovely layer of camp. And I'm here for that.

Sam 22:20

Were you big into ska?

Emma 22:22

No, not really. But I know a lot of,

Sam 22:25

there's a lot of

Emma 22:26

A lot of that going on, but no, this was, oh, it's such a strange track.

Sam 22:33

It is. Do you wanna know my favourite bit?

Emma 22:34

Yeah, go

Sam 22:35

Is the fact that it opens with a sample of a man saying, "damn, you crazy, man."

Emma 22:39

Hit it. So, so stupid. So what do we say about this? There isn't much about it. It was never a single or anything like that. I think the Meat Loaf version is the more fun version. There's a few different backing vocalists in there. But one of them is a woman called Camille Saviola. Who was an actress and singer. She did lots of sort of theatre and supporting roles on TV. And the most interesting thing I could find out was that she played a Bajoran religious leader in four episodes of Star Trek Deep Space Nine.

Sam 23:17

Was, it was, it Kai Winn?

Emma 23:19

Hang on a second because I had this earlier. Let me check. You fucking nerd.

Sam 23:24

Yeah. fucked. Kai? Oh, was Kai Winn the baddie

Emma 23:30

Let me bring up her Wikipedia.

Sam 23:32

was one early on who was a goodie and she was,

Emma 23:35

this was Kai Opaka?

Sam 23:37

Kai Opaka. That goodie one. Yes. Yeah. So, her story arc was that she was a real she was real goodie I mean, all the Bajorans are goodies, but one of 'em is a prick. Fine, I'll explain it all. She was a lovely space pope to make make peace and then she crashed on a planet where people keep dying and coming back to life. And she had also died and come back to life. So none of them could ever leave the planet. They were just having an infinite war.

Emma 24:01

Oh God.

Sam 24:02

She was just stuck on that planet, helping

Emma 24:05

See, I did used to watch DS9 'cause it was on at tea time. But I can't remember anything about it. And I sometimes toy with the idea of going back and watching all of the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Sam 24:15

You should, Emma, 'cause Star Trek's good, but you have to subscribe to fucking Paramount Plus

Emma 24:20

Oh what?

Sam 24:21

Or buy it on DVD.

Emma 24:23

Then I'd have to find something to play it on DVD.

Sam 24:28

Anyway. Yeah. I thought that was Kai Opaka.

Emma 24:29

a nice little

Sam 24:30

That smashes my extra out of Star Wars from into a cocked hat. I can't picture Kai O- listeners, if you can picture Kai Opaka singing backing vocals on a rock song, do let me know. chatoutofhell@gmail.com.

Emma 24:42

I mean, she did a lot of other backing vocals over the years and did a lot of support roles in various shows. And there's a whole, you know, if you wanna know more, wikipedia's your friend

Sam 24:53

In the show, she's like a motherly space pope but

Emma 24:56

In the Meat Loaf universe, it

Sam 24:58

universe turns out she was acting all along.

Emma 25:00

If it ain't real fake it. speaking of technically it's the chorus.

Sam 25:06

Yeah,

Emma 25:07

chanty bit. Yeah. Can't help but think that, Jim just got his rhyming dictionary out for this. So got fake it, take it, forsake it, make it wake it, break it. And then I've added, remember we should have had like bake it cake it, undertake it, shake it, rake it. That would've made for a more interesting song. Bake It. Particularly

Sam 25:30

if it ain't cake, bake it.

Emma 25:32

Which would be more fun than some of the versions. I sent you the link to the Mike Vogel version. Do you wanna have a listen to that

Sam 25:42

Wuthering Heights one?

Emma 25:43

This is the Wuthering Heights one. It is mercifully short That was the Mike Vogel version, which did come first. That was released with the film in 2003. Mike Vogel, of course, played Heathcliff or Heath as we have to call him in this version. It is so, late nineties early naughties rock.

Sam 26:11

It is,

Emma 26:12

it's sort of a bit grungy, but not grungy enough.

Sam 26:15

I've got it down as being quite a Sisters of Mercy arrangement. And maybe that's just 'cause I've seen him sing More as as well on that film. Yeah. But it may, you know how we often slam Meat Loaf for singing songs that aren't suitable for his age. This is a song about, oh, let's all be angry. It's not funny if it's actually a angry young man doing it. But if it's a 50-year-old idiot, then that's great. So.

Emma 26:39

So this was written for the movie.

Sam 26:42

Yeah.

Emma 26:42

With the intent that Heath would sing it, and it kind of works in that context because the character of Heathcliff in proper Wuthering Heights is this bitter, vengeful character. And this song feels very like that. He's obviously,

Sam 27:00

he just wants to come along and smash up the system.

Emma 27:02

He wants to smash up the system. He's been wronged because of his love for Kate. So I can see how it works, but I do feel like, you know, Jim rattled this off in half an hour.

Sam 27:16

Yeah.

Emma 27:17

It's supposed to be a grungy, modern MTV TV movie kind of a thing. And it certainly has the same quality of the film. The Meat Loaf version is at least fun.

Sam 27:31

Yeah, that's it. It's too po faced.

Emma 27:32

the Meat Loaf version feels a little bit like it's trying to do an I Want My Money Back.

Sam 27:38

Yeah,

Emma 27:38

I've sent you another link, to a live version which is actually called, It Hurts. And the beginning of it is very different. Okay. So we'll have a listen and I'll tell you a little bit about that. So that's called, It Hurts, brackets, Only When I Feel and that was being performed live in the years running up to the release of Bat out of Hell Three. Obviously that's like a recording on some sort of camcorder or whatever in the audience. Yeah. So the sound's never gonna be great, but it feels like pub rock.

Sam 28:24

It does. I swear I've at least heard that melody of the intro before. Yeah. Possibly on something like Batman the Musical. It feels like one of the ideas that Jim had for something that wasn't very good and Meat tried it out perhaps,

Emma 28:36

Yeah. Well, Jim didn't produce Bat out of Hell Three. That's

Sam 28:41

That was Desmond Child, wasn't it?

Emma 28:43

Yes. And there are fans that have been critical of Desmond Child's arrangement but bearing in mind how awful Meat Loaf's voice sounds on that. he's obviously going through a difficult patch with his voice at that point. That's from 2005. The album came out a year later. And it sounds good. It Coming into a Bat out of Hell album And not being Jim Steinman Is a big ask. Yeah. And Jim had refused to participate, he provided some songs, but there was some thought that he wasn't Well, that's it enough. But as with everything in the legal world of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman,

Sam 29:21

the Legal World of Meat Loaf and Jim Steinman,

Emma 29:24

it's so fucking tedious to read.

Sam 29:25

Yes. I, believe both of them at one point said, Jim was just too ill. And then both of them have later retracted that. at later points.

Emma 29:32

Jim had trademarked the Bat out of Hell title in 95, and he did let Meat Loaf use it regularly. So on all the tours and on like the Greatest Hits album but not long before Bat Three was due to be released, Jim's lawyers got in touch with Meat Loaf's to say, no, not this time. So Meat Loaf was left for the choice of binning the album or suing Jim. So he sued. There's loads of the

Sam 29:58

option of, give it a different name.

Emma 30:00

Well, I guess it was already

Sam 30:04

all of

Emma 30:04

printed, all the printed the labels. You know how pigheaded both of them are true.

Sam 30:09

Yes.

Emma 30:10

And I think Meat Loaf was determined to release this Bat album because they were the most successful ones, weren't they? And this Bat album was gonna be a bit different 'cause it was gonna be rockier and more guitar led than piano led. Yeah. There's like loads of bullshit and messy stuff here. I'm not gonna go into all of it because it went on for pages and pages. In Mick Wall's book. It's unclear what the truth is about Jim's decision to decline to produce Bat out of Hell Three. It was originally stated to do with his health 'cause he'd had a heart attack and a stroke by this point." Which I think does give you quite a good excuse note from your mum. But he was also rumoured to be working on another project called Bat Out of Hell, A New Generation. There was another rumour that Meat's lawyers had submitted claims that Meat himself had written the songs on both previous bat albums. What I know, but Mick Wall says in the book, "no one really believed that Meat Loaf was that delusional. It was all just press politicking, the kind of bullshit you find yourself wading through when opposing lawyers begin chewing over $50 million lawsuits." So this whole mess of bullshit was happening. And there's so much of it in Meat's career. His battles with Jim are, I would say, lengthy and tedious. And yet they still claim to be friends in different ways at different times. So Jim will often describe it as almost like a business arrangement. Meat Loaf will say he was his best mate. Yeah. Oh, It's so horrible. Meat Loaf was full of praise for Desmond Child. Which I guess you would be when you're promoting an album. He said Jim told him he didn't think you could make a song out of If It Ain't Broke, but Desmond did. He went way past it. Bat out of Hell Three is such a troubled album.

Sam 31:52

So I, one of the reasons I can see that he would've wanted to get this album out no matter what we know, we know- in our opinion, this is the last point that his voice is still...

Emma 32:05

yeah. Everything after this is hard work.

Sam 32:08

Yeah, exactly. And I think he perhaps knew that himself. This is the last good thing I'm gonna release.

Emma 32:14

I think the last time I saw him live was in 2004. 'cause I went to see him when I was 10, 15, and 20. Not deliberately, it's just how it worked out. And I went with both my parents for that one. So that must have been 2004. And his voice really wasn't good on that tour. To the extent that my dad was quite angry about how awful it sounded, it wasn't a pleasant experience. Yeah. I found the whole thing quite tense. it Is no wonder that he wanted to try and claw back a bit of past glory.

Sam 32:43

My other thought was about them suing each other and going away and coming back together is: it must be so infuriating to know that this one person gets the best out of you. And when you work with anybody else, it's always second rate.

Emma 33:01

Yeah.

Sam 33:02

That happened right at the very beginning of their

Emma 33:04

Yep.

Sam 33:05

you cannot ever escape that relationship.

Emma 33:08

I guess it's what happens with a lot of double acts.

Sam 33:11

Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

Emma 33:12

Resentment builds, but you still find yourself having to do a fucking podcast with them every fortnight

Sam 33:17

fucking weeks. Yeah, No, Emma, what I said was they had massive success

Emma 33:31

tied to their

Sam 33:31

double act partners.

Emma 33:33

yeah. That bit. Oh God.

Sam 33:36

But they're both such headstrong men as well, though, that they couldn't bear the idea that somebody else was necessary for their success. Yeah.

Emma 33:44

they are toxic masculinity.

Sam 33:46

are both. Yeah. But but they are also a, I'm gonna put a B in front of it, but it could well be a regular. romance bromance romance. They're Kathy and Heathcliff.

Emma 33:57

Oh, they are. It's probably time to rate it, isn't

Sam 34:01

internet,

Emma 34:01

people of the internet had fuck all to say about this one as well. There were a few people going on about how different versions were better, but nothing genuinely

Sam 34:10

Yeah. And I think that's because the people of the internet are oiks

Emma 34:13

Yeah.

Sam 34:15

don't read Wuthering Heights.

Emma 34:17

The people with the internet, they they don't care.

Sam 34:20

Well, Emma, let's stick this bad boy on the table and rate

Emma 34:25

if it ain't broke, rate it

Sam 34:26

Yeah. For the listeners' benefit, I did an aggressive point when I said rate it. So Emma, Jim Steinman for very good. Jim Fineman for acceptable Jim Declineman for, oh no, Jim, please shut up.

Emma 34:38

It's just a Jim Fineman, isn't

Sam 34:40

There's nothing, know,

Emma 34:42

with it,

Sam 34:43

with the right arrangement. It's a bit of fun. With the wrong arrangement, I'm bored now.

Emma 34:48

But that was the whole vibe of the film. It was such a long, 90 minutes. And that's uh, That's our songs, isn't it?

Sam 34:58

That is our songs. Is you've

Emma 35:00

that is our songs.

Sam 35:01

yeah. You've never done that bit before.

Emma 35:04

I probably won't do it again.

Sam 35:05

Okay. Well that is our songs. I still feel the need to say it again. That's fine. No, I don't want to. No, so

Emma 35:11

It's okay. I know that you are that man.

Sam 35:18

If you have opinions on our songs, you can drop a- Do you wanna do this bit as well? No. That was quite passive aggressive, wasn't it? Do you wanna do this bit?

Emma 35:26

No, don't wanna do any of it, you can bring both songs next time.

Sam 35:32

Fine. So if you have opinions on those songs, you can drop us an email chat out of, you can drop us an E

Emma 35:40

If you have an opinion on those songs or wanna get in touch with us about anything we've talked about today or anything to do with the Steinman universe, really, or the Meatyverse as I hate calling it. Then why not get in touch with us at our email address, chat out of hell@gmail.com. Yeah, I did that bit.

Sam 35:56

Or I'm gonna do this bit. You could use that email to let us know your opinions on our songs for next time. Emma, what are we gonna be doing next time?

Emma 36:04

I'm gonna bring Bad Attitude from 1984,

Sam 36:07

I'm gonna bring Blind before I Stop from Blind Before I Stop, 1986.

Emma 36:12

Oh Em Gee.

Sam 36:13

It's a title track special. So do let us know your thoughts on those. Or if you wanna recommend any other songs for us do Drop Us an email. Chat out of help@gmail.com. Keep your Meat Loaf thoughts and anecdotes flying in. Perhaps you saw Meat Loaf playing Scrabble and arguing that kwyjibo is definitely a word now

Emma 36:31

it's a perfectly cromulent word

Sam 36:33

indeed. Let us know. chatoutofhell@gmail.com. Show your support for the podcast by giving us five stars on your podcast listening app of choice. That does help the algorithm do stuff it's maths, innit. Recommended us in the family WhatsApp group. See how you get kicked out. That's it. That sort of crashed. Oh, it's 'cause I did those in the wrong order. I think that's it, Emma. Any other business?

Emma 36:56

No other business from me.

Sam 36:57

Oh, lovely. Well, we'll see you all again then in another two weeks time for another rip roaring edition of the only Chat out of Hell. Except for that one that was a video that was released in the 90s. Bye Bow. Now now now.