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Dating Daycare
Welcome to "Dating Daycare," the ultimate safe space for women navigating the unpredictable world of modern dating. Join hosts Melissa Firpo and Allison Waterman as they dish out candid advice, share hilarious anecdotes, and tackle the toughest dating dilemmas faced by women today.
In a dating landscape filled with frogs disguised as princes and a jungle of jerks, Melissa and Allison offer a nurturing haven where women can laugh, learn, and empower each other to find love on their own terms. From ghosting to breadcrumbing, from disastrous first dates to navigating online profiles, "Dating Daycare" covers it all with wit, wisdom, and plenty of wine.
With Melissa's no-nonsense approach and Allison's comedic charm, each episode feels like a heart-to-heart chat with your best girlfriends over brunch. Whether you're swiping left or swiping right, "Dating Daycare" is your go-to guide for surviving and thriving in the wild world of modern romance.
So grab your favorite beverage, kick back, and join Melissa and Allison as they navigate the highs, lows, and hilarities of dating life. Because when it comes to matters of the heart, everyone could use a little TLC from "Dating Daycare.
Dating Daycare
PART 2 - Why Abuse Victims Stay: The Psychology Behind Domestic Violence w/ Jennifer Capezza
Why do victims stay in abusive relationships? It's a question that perplexes many, often leading to judgment rather than understanding. In this powerful follow-up conversation with domestic violence expert Jennifer Capezza, we pull back the curtain on the complex web of emotional, financial, and safety factors that trap victims in dangerous situations.
Jennifer reveals how abusers operate as master manipulators who employ a "slow burn" approach to control. They don't show their true colors immediately but instead identify vulnerabilities, gradually establishing dominance through subtle criticism, gaslighting, and emotional manipulation. By the time red flags become obvious, victims are often deeply entangled in a distorted reality where their confidence and independence have been systematically dismantled.
The conversation takes us through the psychological journey of abuse victims, using compelling analogies like the "frog in boiling water" to illustrate how even the strongest, most intelligent individuals can become trapped. We explore practical strategies for recognizing patterns of abuse, including Melissa's powerful personal experience of documenting concerning behaviors to finally break free from her own abusive relationship.
What's particularly eye-opening is learning that domestic violence affects people from all walks of life – successful professionals, CEOs, even clinicians themselves. Jennifer emphasizes that no one is immune to manipulation and that understanding this reality is crucial for developing empathy rather than judgment toward those caught in these situations.
Whether you're personally experiencing abuse, supporting someone who is, or simply want to better understand this pervasive issue, this episode provides crucial insights that could save lives. Remember, help is available 24/7 through confidential hotlines, and you don't need to have all the answers before reaching out – trained counselors are ready to guide you through each step of the journey.
Have you witnessed these manipulation tactics in your own relationships or those of people you care about? What red flags do you wish you'd recognized sooner?
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Welcome to Dating. Daycare where we help you navigate through the jungle of jerks. Today we have part two. We have Jennifer Capizza back on Pronouncing that right, right, no, help me.
Speaker 2:Help me Capizza.
Speaker 1:I always say it's like the candy, but I am not nearly as sweet. Such a bad host, that's fine, just don't call me late. Help me, capezza. I always say it's like the candy, but I am not nearly as sweet. Such a bad host, it's fine, just don't call me late for dinner. And you're from Long Island. Domestic Against Domestic Violence yes, so our domestic violence shelter person is here.
Speaker 2:We're not just a shelter. I know we're going to get into that later, but as a reminder, so I'm the associate director, not later, but as a reminder. So I'm the associate director. I oversee a number of programs. We have our safe harbor shelter, which was the first and still is the most comprehensive shelter on the island because we also take pets. We have that's huge, yeah. So we got more into that in our very first episode.
Speaker 2:But we have the largest advocacy program here on the island that assists with court proceedings, custody et cetera. We were actually the first in the country to use that model where we partner with police in the police precincts. Any day of the week you can get an advocate until like 9 or 11 o'clock at night. We work alongside with police. We have a counseling program adult and children group and individual counseling program adult and children group and individual. We have a return to work financial like a vocational financial literacy program. So it's like resume writing and interview prep, but it's also credit repair, budgeting, all of that kind of stuff. Everything. You have everything there.
Speaker 1:Everything that one would need if you wanted to get out of your domestic violence situation. This is where you need to contact, and today we're doing part two of why they stay. You know a lot of everybody.
Speaker 1:I would think most people know somebody that is in an abusive relationship, whether it's mentally or physically or all of the above Right and a lot of people, or all of the above Right and a lot of people are like but we don't understand, why did they stay Like you remember when that Marilyn Manson thing came out, did you ever see that it wasn't my crowd? But I vaguely remember.
Speaker 1:I mean, I didn't listen to his music either, but it was all over the internet when it's like the women came out and he like severely abused them. Oh, this I did not, yes, yes. And so many people were like you're fit, like they were famous women. These weren't just women off the street that needed money or needed. They didn't have a home and they were like, why would you ever stay with that maniac?
Speaker 2:I mean, it looks like I mean he definitely just by looking at that guy I would say, yeah, he's a lunatic, but anyway but also don't why today this is the why, but also, on that note, even before that, though, don't forget, the first national landmark domestic violence case was the oj simpson trial yeah, and the murder of nicole brown simpson and ron howard.
Speaker 3:Ron howard ron no was it howard Simpson and Ron Howard? Ron Howard, ron, no, was it Howard? No Poor guy, I know, yeah, ron, yeah, poor guy, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's Google it because I want to get that right, because he deserves it. That was a huge conversation and I've actually heard, if you listen to, even their Ron Goldman, ron Goldman, ron Goldman.
Speaker 3:Thank you, allison, you're welcome.
Speaker 2:So the murder of Nicole and Ron. And I've heard 911 tapes where because back then nobody really knew what this was about and OJ Simpson was revered and didn't look like a lunatic right Everybody loved him. And I remember on the the recording hearing the 9-1-1 operator say um oh, you made him mad, oh gosh what happened. And she goes yeah, I made him mad.
Speaker 2:And you hear him in the background screaming and yelling and banging like and she turns around and goes oh, jj, please, the kids are sleeping and the 911 operator's like wait, who is that? And she goes. You know him. It's OJ Simpson. And the only reason I'll keep saying his name is the offender and naming him is because I believe that you have to call it, you have to say it. And he was an evil. Can we curse on the microphone? Yeah, okay, of course he was an evil son of a bitch. You know what I mean, but he didn't look it Right and Nicole stayed for a million reasons.
Speaker 2:Right so that I always draw attention to that because a lot of people saw that as media fodder and tabloid stuff and whatever. But no Clinically.
Speaker 1:Or puffy getting. Yeah, right, oh, getting to like 2025.
Speaker 2:26 right, yeah, right, so, and there's. So. Has things changed? Things changed?
Speaker 1:no, things have not changed no, fortunately he's getting off with murder. I don't get literally literally getting again.
Speaker 2:So here we are in that situation. So one of the reasons why this is such an important conversation is because there's a million reasons why they don't leave, why people don't leave A million and I'm going to go out on a limb and say you won't understand any of them.
Speaker 1:Ever, unless you're in it. It's very hard for our audience that this particular show is not pertaining to. That isn't healthy, non-toxic relationships. I will admit to you that sometimes it is hard to understand. If I'm gonna come from the opposite end of the spectrum, totally respect that it is hard to um to understand why, somebody in such a horrific like we all understand, like our regular dating woes and problems and issues and what we call, you know, toxic People use that all the time they throw that around.
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, like your average jerk face, the average jerk face Right, Like there's so many men you know the average man that puts in the time, you know, three months.
Speaker 1:Love bombs you, breadcrumbs you.
Speaker 2:And then disappears, or just annoys you Right, or?
Speaker 1:doesn't want to put in the effort, but I want love. I want love, but they don't want to work at the relationship.
Speaker 2:They don't want to put in the effort. No, this is not that.
Speaker 2:This is not that, this is not that Right, but I will say that you, that you know there are circumstances that I think are more relatable than others, for sure you know. But let me also sort of point out that one of the reasons it's so challenging, um, and frankly, even, even and here's I'm gonna look, even if you've been through it um, sometimes it's difficult to talk to a friend or a colleague and say but I don't understand, like you, literally the instinct is.
Speaker 2:You know, you take for granted that we're in a world we were just talking. This weekend actually, I was with some family and we were sort of reminiscing about our grandparents who were married together for 66 years and, on one hand and they were amazing couple and we still tell stories they're gone 15, um, 15 and 20 years now, but sorry, 15 and 10 years now. But you know, my cousin and I were saying, like you know, we'd like to think that it was 100 because they were amazing together. But let's not forget it's our lifetime that women were not allowed to have credit cards on their own bank account they couldn't have their own bank account.
Speaker 2:It was illegal for us to divorce, like you know it was just we take part of why marriages lasted right like we take for granted, like you, if you decide that you want to get divorced, nowadays for the most part you can just go fill out some paperwork and you have every right to get. So you know. The thing about it, too, is that you know we're human beings and by nature we're logical, we're problem solvers, right Like that's in our survival nature. So we want to see a thing that we can put a pin on and say this is the reason, or I need to understand, right, but that's going to be different for everybody and that's why this conversation is so important is that it's not, first of all, it's not the same for everybody and, by the way, sometimes any individual person, sometimes it's not the same on any given day, do you know what I'm saying and I think that's why, at least for me, I wanted to start this podcast for women, because I think that, given nature of women to want the, why is the?
Speaker 2:reason why we always want the why Right?
Speaker 1:And don't get me wrong, I want the why too, just as much as everybody else. But I'm healed enough, mature enough emotionally tactful enough to know that sometimes you're not going to get the why. Yeah, and that's why I'm here for you, ladies. And let me just go to the beginning here of the relationship, before all of this stuff that you're going to discuss even happens. Sometimes you are never going to get the why, and you know what the why turns into. Here's what the why turns into, because I tell you this all, all the time, and I say this over and over and over again Sometimes the why just has to be. It's not for me, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not. For me, that's like a no is a complete sentence, and that's the case, by the way, whether you're in a long-term relationship or you're just dating, or you're just chatting with somebody on an app and, all of a sudden, they disappear. The answer is they're just a jerk face or it's gone, like nobody cares, like whatever.
Speaker 1:And that's the easy, that's the very easy example of something. Let me give another example. You're dating somebody for four or five months and it's all going great and you think, oh my God, in this world of shit, I think I found somebody. This is like heaven, as the angels from fucking heaven just fell and this is a normal, whatever it is that you're looking for, and you found it. And then all of a sudden, I don't know, they disappear, or they say they got back with their ex, or they just say you're not for them. After six months of consistency.
Speaker 3:It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter, they're just not with you, right?
Speaker 1:And then you're like, oh, but why?
Speaker 2:Or maybe you don't even get that. Why? Maybe they?
Speaker 1:just pull back and you have absolutely no idea why You're not going to get the why You're not going to get it. You just got to sit there and say you know what I didn't like this behavior. It's emotionally immature, it's not for me, it's not what I'm looking for. They're red flags.
Speaker 2:And they did you a favor. Bye, Felicia.
Speaker 1:And you got to you don't keep going for the why and then get into the situation that we're going to talk about today. Okay, so the topic today?
Speaker 2:Yes. So the topic today, yes, the topic today so there you go is why do they stay right? Because, if I had a dime for every time, because I do speaking engagements all over the place, I do presentations, I do trainings for clinical service providers, and if I had a dime for every time, somebody said but I don't understand, why don't they just leave, like, just go, just leave, like you know, and they get all judgy-wudgy about it. And I get it. I get why it looks like that, but here's how. So here's also what I say about.
Speaker 2:It is okay, and I always address the group and I say how many of you guys have ever stayed in a job? You hate it. And everybody, I said, just because you needed to pay the rent or because of any reason, any reason, you stay in a job you hate. How many of you have done that? And they all, like every person. 90% of them are always like this, where they start to look away from me because they know they're busted right. So I say, okay, how many of you have maintained a relationship with a family member a cousin, crazy, aunt Sue, how many of you have maintained a relationship with a family member a cousin crazy and sue like because you have to, or it's the right thing to do, like I'm italian, I was raised by an italian family circus.
Speaker 2:If I had, I also, if I, on a daily basis, I get told but, jennifer, it's the right thing to do, you know, and it's like, well, screw that, screw that. It's the right thing to do. Because if I'm exactly, I have no, I owe you nothing. I don't care who you are, where you come from, how long, I owe you nothing, right? So, and because if it affects, I mean, listen, it's different if you're talking about a family member who's loving and whatever, and it's just uncomfortable. Maybe they're ill or whatever, that's it. But if this is detrimental to you, I mean I've sat by family members' bedsides and it's the last place that I want to be, but that's the right thing to do and that's love. Yeah, if you're a jerk face, you know I'm not. You're not invited to my table, you're not. Oh, and they know that, because I host all the holidays, because none of my sisters can cook, so so you're not, you're not invited.
Speaker 1:Well, that's my table, and that should be the thing. This is my table, but now how do we get to? They're invited to the table and now they can't get out of it and they're being abused. It's a long road.
Speaker 2:And the disclaimer here, before we go down this road, is, like I always say, we could sit here from now until next Christmas describing specific individual scenarios.
Speaker 2:That's not the goal. The goal is for you to listen to this conversation and train your mind and your ear a little bit to overlay some of the scenarios and the sentiment and the red flags and all of that stuff into a situation, because don't say to yourself, well, that specific thing never happened to me, so I'm OK, it's not abusive. Do you see what I'm saying? Because every situation is different and we always say, if you have met one survivor of domestic violence, you have only met one survivor of domestic violence, because every single situation is different. But in this conversation, for argument's sake, because we are human and we do like things in neat little boxes and sections, we're going to talk about three specific areas of the most common reasons Not the only, for the record, not the only, but the most common. So we're going to go through first the emotional situation, then we're going to go through the financial situation which frankly, especially in our area, is a huge problem right.
Speaker 2:And then the safety, the physical safety issues and we were chatting before we started recording. There is going to be a content warning. This is my due diligence as a service provider. Some of this stuff in particular when you get into the safety stuff, you know it could be very activating of trauma. It could be activating to you. I don't like the word trigger because it gets overused, but we say this could activate some feelings in you that you're gonna have to maybe deal with.
Speaker 2:If you're in the same situation or in you know for whatever yeah. So just a content warning there.
Speaker 1:If you're in healthy relationships, like for me, it's not activating anything Correct and I'm fortunate in that it doesn't activate much in me either. However just have to do my due diligence.
Speaker 2:So the emotional aspect, and you know this is something that's super challenging because, you know, going back to the why, going back to needing hardcore proof or reasons, right, like, like, I'm a very logical person, I am very into logistics, I you know physicality of things and okay, you know, let's build a thing here, like emotion's not logical.
Speaker 1:Right, that's nothing to do with logic. It's literally the opposite.
Speaker 2:It's literally the opposite, which, frankly, in my opinion, is one of the reasons why it's so challenging for the strongest and most intelligent of individuals. Do you know what I'm saying? And I'm going to say words like individuals, people, persons, clients, whatever, because this is not just men, right, like this. Domestic violence, as a reminder, does not discriminate. It is an indiscriminate predator. It's like a cancer. It doesn't care who you are, where you come from, how much you make, whether you know where you live, what kind of car is in your driveway or where if you go to church on Sundays. So I also challenge folks, when we're having these conversations, to sort of wipe your mind of that too. Do you know what I'm saying? Like there's anybody can be a victim and anybody can be a predator, and that's a huge sort of message that I like to get out there.
Speaker 2:So one of the things that you see is on the emotional aspect is so the effects of the, so the actions of the abusive party, with the yelling and the name calling and the gaslighting. And let me tell you something I would never fall for. That, says every female ever right, says everybody. I would never fall for that. Oh, but you will, because it's sort of like that Stockholm syndrome kind of a thing. It's like the brainwashing. If you can imagine what it's like, how people get into cults which, fun fact, the majority of cult members are actually highly intelligent, well-educated, well-resourced individuals You'd be amazed.
Speaker 1:But I find that the people that enter the cults even someone like Leah Remy that was in Scientology, there's something broken.
Speaker 3:She was groomed from childhood.
Speaker 2:There's something broken. Well, I don't like the word broken. Melissa, don't you roll your eyes at me? It's broken it's not broken, it's a vulnerability it's a vulnerability and show me a human being that doesn't have some vulnerabilities absolutely. We all have vulnerabilities and then the predators go in and prey on it, on the low vulnerability, because anybody with a high standard.
Speaker 1:I mean I, it's just you. You would. I'm not that vulnerable. You would never get that far with me. The minute you turned around and you were like go fuck yourself. Blah, blah, blah, blah and it has happened to me. Listen, my ex was like that. No, I know my ex was like that. He we're done.
Speaker 2:No, I know.
Speaker 1:My ex was like that we're done when it got to that.
Speaker 2:I made the plan. Well, everybody has their breaking point. I've discussed this.
Speaker 1:I made the plan, I saved my money and then that was that and I had a plan and I got out of it, but everybody's breaking point is different too. It's like when you talk about people who, if you're a part of that world at all, um everybody's um um rock bottom, absolutely, but it depends how vulnerable you are and how alone you are have vulnerabilities absolutely, and abusive parties will prey on it.
Speaker 2:They they zero in well, they would never get away with it too much with the other people.
Speaker 1:If you have a big, huge family and you're, you know, rather than somebody that doesn't have a family and not a lot of friends, it's easier to prey on the person that doesn't have the family and not a lot of friends.
Speaker 2:I don't think so. That's actually not true Than the other. It's actually not true at all, Melissa.
Speaker 1:I'll be honest with you and I understand where you're coming fly with my father, like my father would be over the house.
Speaker 2:I got a big italian family circus too but, we're not on top of each other every day. We yes, we are in each other's business. We are in each other's business. My mother's over the house three, four days a week with my kids.
Speaker 1:I get it my dad's over two times a week you live with your dad like. Would that guy ever be able to come into your house and be like allison?
Speaker 2:let me grab your hair, but they don't come in. Okay, so let's talk about that, so they don't come in and start like that. That's the difference, don't forget. They start with. There's a reason why everybody knows the phrase breadcrumbing right, of course. And I say this in presentations all the time?
Speaker 1:Well, not day one, but day, you know, 800.
Speaker 2:Not necessarily so Necessarily. So here's why. But what happens between day one and day 800? A lot. They are literally grooming you. Everybody understands now the term grooming, right, that is what they do. Okay, so the emotional aspect here, because by the time it gets to the point, it's dangerous from day one to day 800. Let's talk about day two to day 799. Let's talk about that, right. Okay, because what if I said to you so like Allison, you walked in this morning, I'm like she looks fabulous.
Speaker 2:I said to myself and I love the glasses, and I think you're welcome and and I love and I kind of want you to take me shopping. But the point is, is that you know you, you present you, but I mean you both present, don't get me wrong like very, and as do I very, forward facing, very grounded. There's a strength about us, right.
Speaker 2:But what happened the minute I complimented you, which I'm going to say for the record- was 100% sincere, by the way, because I do love your glasses and I wish I could get away with something like that. Thank you, but you immediately, you smiled, you giggled, and that's just a colleague saying and complimenting. So now add to the fact that maybe one of your vulnerabilities if you, I'm sorry, I'm picking on you, but I haven't recorded with you yet, so I'm totally picking on you.
Speaker 3:No, I'm into this.
Speaker 2:So, like now, say perhaps one of your vulnerabilities is your quirky style that maybe other folks have maybe put you down for or not appreciated.
Speaker 3:Let's go that far.
Speaker 2:Not appreciated. Maybe your parents aren't a huge fan of quirky glasses and they think that you should look like an accountant. I don't know. Do you see what I'm saying? Okay, so now, as a potential love interest, I have complimented something and I have noticed, by the way, because these individuals are master manipulators, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to roll back the tape to Dirty John, because listen to that podcast, don't watch the Netflix thing. It's horrible because it makes her look like pathetic and I hated it. The podcast on Wondery, though, that was produced by Wondery is fantastic, because it makes a very clear picture about how successful she was, or is.
Speaker 2:But when he came along so now here I have noticed, because I'm a master manipulator, that you smiled and giggled, right. So now I'm going to love Bob, you know, and now you're going to think it's cute because you're caught up in it. Now, what happens if, a week from now, or a month from now, or whenever I see an opening? Now I'm going to say but don't you think those frames would be? They would be so much prettier with your brown eyes if they were in like a blue instead of the black. And on one hand, you're like, maybe because that's very gray area right, and you've been dating for a couple of weeks and he's he or she's been so complimentary, so I don't mean to assume yeah um, he or she's been so complimentary and what have you?
Speaker 2:and then you're like all all right, maybe. And then the next thing now cuts you day 47, day 102. And now you're in an argument about something, and now he or she turns around and says and what is with these stupid glasses? I told you I don't like the blank, the black frames. Now, this is arguably a superficial and sort of very simplistic example. But that's what's so gradual, and it is so gradual and insidious.
Speaker 2:Now, that's one thing, that out of a hundred in the last days that you know the one, the one or two things that like hit you the wrong way and like give you that feeling in your gut. But he's done like a here, she's done like a hundred cool things and like it's fine and it's so what? It's just my glasses, what's the big deal? But you know, exit glasses and put in any thousands of things, whether they be about your physical appearance, whether they be about, um, the work, family that you do the family.
Speaker 2:I mean because I got news for you my big fat italian family is a, is a target sometimes because I get told I've been told by guys, so I want nothing to do with that. Okay, bye, felicia. Good luck to you, because we're a package deal, so, like you would think, yes on one hand, but like I've had conversations where they're like I would never put up with your family, I'm like, well then, godspeed, dude because you're out of here.
Speaker 1:Well, that's my point. So you're not that vulnerable, but that's if they say it in the beginning.
Speaker 2:Don't say I'm not vulnerable, Melissa, because I got news for you. Do you know? We get phone calls from clinicians.
Speaker 3:We get phone calls to our hotline from social work.
Speaker 2:No but the minute, I think that I'm screwed. Yeah, but you just said If they said that in the beginning, now what happens in the example with Allison?
Speaker 1:So if they said it, six months later you'd be like oh okay, forget my family. Of course not, Right?
Speaker 2:But not necessarily because they're not going to come right out and say it at first.
Speaker 3:That's the emotional manipulation, Because you don't even realize by the time you're in that form. You don't even realize it.
Speaker 2:No matter how.
Speaker 1:Yes, you are correct on that but my ex tried that with me and I and I completely ignored it.
Speaker 2:So he found 700 other things to torture you on 100. But you see what I'm saying. So that's the other reason they're smart. Don't say I'm not vulnerable because of any given reason, well, I'm saying with the family because, absolutely, my family is off limits 100.
Speaker 2:Actually, the running joke in my family is that if you don't make it through, because you're not truly accepted until you make it through christmas eve because it is such a circus and then, if you're lucky, you'll get included in the group chat, and by lucky I mean god help you right because it is with the family chat right exactly yeah so, but my point is is that, no, that is not a vulnerability for me, because that's a deal breaker, um, but I have others and I would be foolish, that's I would be foolish to think that you're
Speaker 2:but too foolish to think that I don't. So there's, you know. And then let's also not forget that this world is lonely. So there's factors like so I'm just going through, I have a slide, um, here I'm gonna actually send to the producer, send to you guys, um, after this conversation, a handful of sort of illustrations of what we're talking about super helpful so, um, I have to adjust them a little bit because this is, um, an animated powerpoint, so I have to just go in and mess with it.
Speaker 2:But, like the, the visual here is overlapping concentric circles of all of these things. There's loneliness, there's depression, because what happens is there's the offender's actions right towards you as an individual, and then there's the mental health consequences of that in this world, because, look, I do have a big Italian family, but you know what? We're all professionals, there's kids, we all work, and I can go weeks without. I mean, okay, maybe not big Italian family, but you know what? We're all professionals, there's kids, we all work, and I can go weeks without. I mean, okay, maybe not in the family chat, because we're not that lucky, but I could go weeks from not seeing them. I can go weeks with not hearing them. I mean, if it's October Domestic Violence Awareness Month I don't see them.
Speaker 1:In October I'm running around Long Island like a gypsy like a gypsy, like you know what I'm saying, like I you know.
Speaker 2:So, um, I think women have to be, then, um, aware of these slow roll, the slow bone, that's the slow burn.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the goal of this conversation, so that they don't get engulfed by it and end up six months down, eight months, two years, three years down ten years down the road and wasting their lives with somebody. But you know what? Also? You know, I always say this on the podcast Men are, you know, and it goes for women too they're supposed to treat you well 100% they are supposed to treat you well. I love this conversation Anybody that's not treating you well Anybody who's not treating you well.
Speaker 1:Anybody who's not treating you well, anybody that's critiquing your outfits, your glasses, your family, your this, your that. They're not for you.
Speaker 2:Your interests your job, your hair.
Speaker 1:My ex used to be like your hair has to be so long your nails have to yes it does.
Speaker 2:The answer is yes, and I love that. The answer is yes, and I love that the answer is yes, and flutter off.
Speaker 1:Go to the girl who wears her hair in a bun every day. It's not for me. You will never see me with a hair in a bun like Allison, but that's okay. That doesn't make it right, wrong or indifferent. You have to ask yourself why.
Speaker 2:Especially in the beginning. Why should they like my long hair Right? Especially in the beginning? Because I owe you nothing, but not even in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Let's say, you're dating somebody for a year.
Speaker 1:And after that year they start saying you know what? I don't like navy blue on you and I hate your necklaces and I think your hair is ugly and I don't like blue eyes anymore. Can you wear contacts? I don't care what it is, you're too fat, you're too thin, you're too this. Fucking. Leave bye, felicia, bye, like. Don't try to change from navy blue to stripes if you don't want I mean, if you don't want. Once in a blue moon, I don't like a stripe. Wear the polka dots. It looks better on you, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Let's not go crazy but there's also but that's a great conversation because part of what we talk about a lot, too, is the balance, because I've had partners say look, I'm with my partner, I value their opinion To a point To a point. Is this dress better or is that dress?
Speaker 3:I mean I say this all the time with women who you know they defer to their guys about the perfume they wear. Absolutely and that's okay, yeah but you know, I guess the point is at what point do you feel uncomfortable? Does it not sit right with you? So, and that's the that's a great point.
Speaker 2:So here's the end. Well, here's our answer, and I'm not going to say that answer. But one of the answers is when it feels wrong. So like if I said to you you know what those stripes look great, but I really do love those, and you're like I'm wearing the stripes, okay, let's go, that's fine. That's fine Because like no is a complete sentence. Well, so is yes, are you really wearing that? Yes, yes, I am. Are you really doing that?
Speaker 2:Yes, right that, that, yes, right, that's I mean I'm famous for that too, because I, I'm, I'm big, I'm big, right of course, within that's the also thing, like, is it about the partner and we go. We got into this a little bit more in the very first episode, so I'm going to defer to that. Go back and listen to our very first episode, because we talk about the intricacies of the balance between what is um, a healthy disagreement right and a healthy disagreement right and a healthy recovery from a disagreement or even an argument, because, listen, we're New Yorkers, we're firing.
Speaker 3:There's gonna be arguments.
Speaker 2:I think that's so important to be able to differentiate between the two and that can go back to our first conversation and healthy communication too.
Speaker 1:Here's another thing that I'm going to assume that these men or women that are predators like this do not have a healthy way of communicating, and I think you can see that right off the bat Listen, your gut goes immediately.
Speaker 1:And not only that, but ladies, you know, once again, we always talk about this there are red flags. Okay, if you start dating a guy and you say, hey, listen, you know what. I need this from you to feel secure, I need, you know, a few texts during the day, maybe at the end of the day. You're busy, I'm busy, you know it's, we're in three months touch base touch base. It's a call at the end of the night and that man completely ignores that. And the next day.
Speaker 2:You don't get it, you don't get that's not an unreasonable request, right?
Speaker 1:and you don't get a, you don't get. That's not an unreasonable request, right? And you don't get a text. Or I need to see you. You know, two days a week.
Speaker 2:We're headed towards a relationship right, right, you know, we make time.
Speaker 1:Two days time, two days, reasonable request reasonable request and the man just ignores it.
Speaker 2:Right, ladies, that's a red flag, that's a red flag you should not chase anybody.
Speaker 1:You should not have to chase anybody they're not interested, interested in what's making you uncomfortable, what easily can make you happy, your wants, your needs. They're not putting enough time. These are all red flags to see that the person is either not that interested, not a good communicator. If you say, hey, I feel like something's bothering you, what's bothering you, and they're like I'm not talking about this, these are all signs of unhealthy, immature communication. A person should be able to turn around to you and be like, hey, listen, you know what I got back with my ex. Or hey, listen, just healthy communication and even hard communication and all of these things Don't go forward.
Speaker 2:Move back Is the foundation for what happens, right? So what happens when you do go forward? What happens when you are in the relationship Just to bring it back to the clinical, the behavioral, health side of this from a domestic violence standpoint is when you ignore all of this and when you experience what Melissa is describing Not the good guy, yeah, um. So you know when, when you go through, um, when you ignore all of that. And we also talk a little bit more about red flags. We could do a whole, we could do 75 episodes on red flags, but the it's itags, but there's loneliness, there's fear. All of this is so layered and there's an intersectionality in between those types of abuse and there's also a bit of a sunk cost fallacy. Like, look, none of us are getting any younger, like let's face it we're not in our 20s.
Speaker 2:I've devoted all this time yeah, and by the way, that could be a week for some people, because, again, everybody's baseline, everybody's vulnerabilities, everybody's standards are different it could be Like two months in is huge for me when I haven't had something in a long time.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly, and everybody and right no-transcript peace, or would you rather be miserable with you continuing to tell this person you know what, whatever it is that you?
Speaker 2:need the devil, you know, melissa, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.
Speaker 1:And here's why, see, I can't live like that.
Speaker 2:Because we also don't want a victim shame here?
Speaker 1:No, I'm not. But I'm just saying, ladies, if you tell them I need Hint water, because I love Hint water and I just need to hydrate every day, or I get a migraine and they're out at the supermarket and they don't bring you any hint water and they're like fuck you, I hate hint water. You'll drink I don't know coffee and you don't drink. You'd rather live with this son of a bitch because you spent a year. Do you know what I'm trying?
Speaker 3:to say the pain, the daily pain, melissa what you're describing now, and I get it.
Speaker 2:I appreciate your passion and I appreciate it, but that is the point. You need a man that's going to bring you hemp water. That's all well and good.
Speaker 1:That's all well and good.
Speaker 3:I agree with you.
Speaker 2:Here's what also has happened at this point you've normalized it. Okay, now also I'm gonna remind you, but we're here to tell them it's not normal.
Speaker 1:I understand that this is what?
Speaker 2:what we're talking about is why they stay, yeah, why they don't leave. Okay, so what you're describing is what all of us see on the outside, on the, and you're, frankly, a perfect.
Speaker 2:This is a perfect example back and forth, especially that's why I do it especially because you, having been, you having been through it, which you're very open about, and I so appreciate that. But you gotta understand again, everybody's baseline is different, right, everybody's rock bottom is different and let me tell you, the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. Whether it's two months, two days, two weeks, two years or 25 years, we have had clients come into the shelter 30 years apart, same marriage. We have had clients call us after because here's what and this is a rare, because I don't want to scare anybody, but it does happen which is why you have to be real careful on the apps. We've had clients come in. They've only been dating a week or they only met a couple times. Now, those guys, those individuals, that's like some criminal minds type stuff, like it does happen, but you got to be careful because it does happen.
Speaker 1:Watch out Allison.
Speaker 2:I've you know, I've identified some scary things, yeah so let's so now also the guilt right, because part of the gaslighting and part of the emotional manipulation is that you are. It's your fault, it's my fault. I've because because, geez, allison, I don't really think it was such a big deal that you could have gotten. I mean, you could have gone on any number of websites and gotten blue frames, why, you know, I told you that I don't you that you're such a beautiful woman, but I just don't think the black frames are. They don't fit you real well. I really would rather love to see those brown eyes framed by blue. I mean, why wouldn't you just do that for me? Is that too much to ask? Boom yeah.
Speaker 3:I could see it really easily, so easy yeah.
Speaker 2:So easy, right. And then they minimize it, and then I'm like go fuck yourself, Melissa James. Melissa focus. All right, I'm focusing.
Speaker 3:I'm going to have someone, I mean I.
Speaker 1:No but you might say here's what though Let me also say but that's like perfect, like it's great for us both to be here because she's the yin I'm the yang she's like. I can see how I would want to go get the blue and I'm like I can see how I'd tell you to fuck yourself.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to say Allison she was much better behaved when you weren't here.
Speaker 3:I'm just saying If you go back to our very first episode she was much better behaved.
Speaker 2:Listen you gotta bring the y. I said screw you on X. Right Again, though, these individuals are master. Okay, they're going to leave that alone then.
Speaker 3:And that's going to be another thing, and then they're going to find something else.
Speaker 2:And then your guard is down right. Because, you think you're a big tough guy and I totally put this guy in his place.
Speaker 1:Oh, you think you're a big tough guy and I totally put this guy in his place. Oh, you think so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, they keep coming at you, and then they come at you with something else.
Speaker 3:And there is shame, so annoying. There is shame.
Speaker 2:And then you start to blame yourself. And then, by the way, what happens when a friend of yours says I don't, so what's the big deal? I'll send, get blue frames.
Speaker 3:They.
Speaker 2:They're like $10 on like three sites right, and that is again, and that's accidental. When we talk about safe interventions and we talk about how to support friends and family that are going through this, we do a whole section on victim blaming. Well, hold on, because, on one hand, we would never what were you wearing? We would never do that. Obviously, however, there are accidental, um, um, subtle forms of victim blaming that we accidentally invert like we don't realize.
Speaker 2:Like because again, hey, allison, that partner of yours that you just started dating a couple months ago, yeah, but they were so funny, like, so what?
Speaker 3:get the blue frames who.
Speaker 2:Because, we don't realize either, because it's that subtle.
Speaker 1:I think it's helpful. What I did was I wrote it down. No, really, I'm trying to help you, ladies out. I wrote it down. When I tried to get back with my ex right, I thought for my kids, my whatever Sure you have thoughts. Anyway, I love the smirk on your face Disaster.
Speaker 1:No, but listen, this is what I did, because he did that what you're describing my ex did to me. So I took a piece of paper and it lasted, I think, two months, maybe three months at most, and every time he did something like that it was why do you have to go to the gym at 3.30? You can't go at 6 am like the rest of the population, like every other normal mom whose kids get off the-.
Speaker 2:Wait, why is that a problem for you? But I wrote it down. Yeah, gym.
Speaker 1:Right, 3.30. Why do your nails have to be shaped like that? Do they really have to be pointy? And listen, I'm just going to tell you what he said to me Puerto Rican, like black, like that's what you, oh my God what a racist thing.
Speaker 2:So I wrote down what is that? So I wrote down nails.
Speaker 1:He wrote why does your hair have? Why?
Speaker 2:do your extensions have to be? You should have wrote down the race of a bitch.
Speaker 1:Well, wait, why does your hair have to be so long. Melissa, you got to get the 22 inch extensions. You can't get the 18. Like it really has to be all the way down. I wrote down here by the time the three months was over. I still have that. I had 35 things. I bet you missed a bunch too, and I still have that piece of paper in my nightstand I'll never get rid of it.
Speaker 2:Good for you, I love that, but what I'm trying to say, ladies, if you're saying they come small, you know you're right. I'm busy with my kids, I'm busy with my friends, I'm busy with life. I'm busy with my kids Because then all together it adds up. I'm busy with my friends.
Speaker 1:I'm busy with life, I'm busy with my job. You're right, I would forget a lot of them. Yeah, ladies, take a piece of paper like I did.
Speaker 2:That's really smart. I love that.
Speaker 1:Take a pen.
Speaker 2:And every time he says something to you like you say, I just want to disclaim here because I'm a service provider. I think that's a fantastic exercise. Disclaimer make sure he can't find it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, oh, he wasn't living with me. He wasn't. No, in your situation, that's fine.
Speaker 2:But, if he or she found that it could be very, very dangerous.
Speaker 1:I read it to him so just as a.
Speaker 2:Melissa At the end of the three months.
Speaker 1:I'm just saying. I read it to him and told him why I didn't want to be with him Come on.
Speaker 2:Focus Focus, all right, so I Write it down. Write it down or in some way, shape or form, but keep it safe because that's a very dangerous thing, Hide it in a sock or something. So you know, and here's, let's also not forget this with the cycle of, and because they're not, you know, all the time is hope, don't forget. Hope is horrible, hope is challenging, hope can be dangerous.
Speaker 1:Very dangerous.
Speaker 2:So, like we, I don't really like the word hope. I don't like it because hope also insinuates that it is out of your control, which, by the way it is. You cannot control. Hope is big. You cannot control how anybody else acts. No, you cannot control if he or she will change. You can only control yourself.
Speaker 1:And here's another thing, and they say this all the time on TikTok.
Speaker 2:Here she goes, the big mouth.
Speaker 1:No wait, you love me, she loves me. Here's another thing, ladies, she loves me. Here's another thing, ladies, and this happens. You see this all over tiktok old.
Speaker 3:I see this instagram reels everything.
Speaker 1:So this is related. Relatable women hope the man is going to be the man they met.
Speaker 2:That's a hundred percent.
Speaker 1:True, not the man that is presenting himself today and ladies, you see it all over the place. You cannot be going on the the mastermind, yes, manipulator, or who knows if mercury was in retrograde or what the hell was going on. I thank the lord it killed me um, you can't go on that man, but you have to go on what is current. So hope, forget about hope.
Speaker 2:Current Current as it. What is true I?
Speaker 3:always say to people.
Speaker 2:What is true today and one of my bosses, one of our bosses' favorite sayings is when someone shows you who they are, believe it, believe them the first time, and that is key, because that hope is.
Speaker 2:so. And, by the way, and I want you to put a pin in your, I want you to for a second, what makes you think that the victim in this situation is not in love with this partner? Because, don't kid yourself, because they're the partner. The abusive party isn't abusive 24 7. So part of that hope aspect is a they're hoping they go back to that first person, like. I saw an article recently that said something to the effect of um, um, the person you married is not the person you're divorcing.
Speaker 2:And I was like, what a perfect way to say that, because it's the truth and you spend so much time hoping, and part of the reason that you have that hope, by the way, is because that's what they're telling you. Because when you say to them, babe, like you, come on, we used to X, y and Z, or we used to be like this and we used to be like that. Well, guess what? You just handed them Right. I'm not blaming you, because that's a common conversation in a, in what you would think.
Speaker 3:But this is how easy it is for them to find ways. But that's find ways to like I'll.
Speaker 2:So I'll convince him or her that I'll go back to I don't know the romantic gestures like, and they'll do it for a minute. Or I'll go back to doing the housework and they'll do it for a minute, or I'll go back to being nice to your mother or something right. All of the things I'll go back to.
Speaker 2:Um, I'll go back to cooking dinner, whatever it is it doesn't matter, just a little taste of the hope and, again, as as as people, as I really look, it's a screwed up world out there, but I really believe that people are good, like meaning, like they meet, like so, like when you're with somebody like that, like you and the part, the uh sort of uh client, the potential client, the victim I don't like the word victim, but the the, if it's happening, it's you're technically the potential client, the victim I don't like the word victim, but if it's happening, you're technically being victimized. So the victim in that situation, like most people, like they want to see the good, they want to believe and, again, they want to believe that they didn't get manipulated into.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but you did Right and that's okay.
Speaker 2:And it's not your fault. No, it's not your fault, because they are master manipulators. Again, I'm going to go back to, I'm going to push this until the day I dirty John the Wondery podcast. So good. So that is a huge, huge part of the emotional aspect. Now I'm also going to add in some other things here that are real important. Um things here that are real important. Um disabilities there's a high, high, high rate of um abusive situations in couples where the victim has a disability, or, frankly, the abuser, because sometimes that's the they play the victim yeah, and the other is the caretaker exactly exactly so.
Speaker 2:Like, whether you're a caretaker or your abuser is your caretaker, there's a high, so like, so, like, logistically, where are you going? Where are you going? What are you doing, right? How are you leaving that? How are you going to just leave Right? Societal pressure Do not take for granted that there is still societal pressure To be coupled, to be coupled to have the kids. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, look, I'm in a very female-dominated family. It's very funny, there's a lot of females. So you know, but you know, at the end of the day, like there's still a little bit of. You know what I'm saying? Like, gee, it's nice being, it's some nice and so, yeah, and, and, and many of us not my family, but like many of us aren't too far removed from the generation that got. I mean, I have colleagues that are first generation born here. Do not kid yourself about the societal norms that still have an underlying threat it's a lot bigger than we think it is.
Speaker 3:It's huge.
Speaker 2:It's huge, and it's not just in the immigrant population, by the way it's not just in yeah, it's not just I mean, we do. It is more challenging for them. I will tell you, I've had plenty of conversations on the hotline with individuals who are either recent immigrants or first generation born here and they're still arranged marriage.
Speaker 3:I have had conversations, I've had women in my shelter who have been physically assaulted within days of their arranged marriage.
Speaker 2:so it is a thing still, and I'm not judging anybody's, I'm not. This has nothing to do with it. No, I'm not judging, I'm merely saying the facts about, because these cultures they've been around for thousands of years and they are practiced in a healthy and celebratory and respectful way by millions of people. But do not take for granted societal norms being a pressure for any given individual in the situation. And then, of course, you know, melissa, like we talked about a little bit, is the kids Right? Right, you are constantly going to question yourself.
Speaker 2:Here's what I will tell you Even if the kids are not, I'm going to remind you guys, even if the kids are not being directly abused themselves, even if this individual is, on face value, parent of the year, on face value parent of the year right and the soccer coach and goes to every school play and does game nights with the I mean even if they are a world-class parent just being in the study show.
Speaker 2:The science shows that just being present in the home and witnessing the abuse those kids are going to have the same exact side effects if they were being directly abused themselves okay so let's, let's sort of not, um, let's not sort of take for granted what happens to kids who just yeah, living in an abusive environment, yeah just the environment and the other thing. I I think this is the third time in your show I've told this analogy but the frog in the boiling water, right? If you boil water and throw a frog in it, it bounces right out. Okay, that's this one over here with the F-bomb, fuck this, fuck that I'm out of here. Right? But if you put a frog in cold water, and slowly heat it.
Speaker 2:What happens? It stays, that's right, and the frog is cooked, and that is something that you cannot take for granted. Also, as we discussed, everybody's vulnerabilities are different. The minute you think you don't have vulnerabilities is the minute that you're going to be, and it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from. We get phone calls from high powered CEOs. We get phone calls from clinicians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't matter what you do or what color skin you are, where you come from, no, but, I think that the whole point of our podcast, too, is to show you the red flags, if you call it, so you don't end up in the situation, absolutely. But also and then we have you to tell them how to get out of the situation, absolutely.
Speaker 2:And also for the sake of for this conversation, is to also say to you if you're in this situation, it's not your fault. No, there are a million, all of these reasons why it's tough to get out.
Speaker 3:I get it. We're here for you right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. So that's like a and if you need help, call.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, we're going to oh call, call, call call.
Speaker 1:We're going to have the number, we're going to have the email. Our hotline is 631-666-8833.
Speaker 2:And it's 24-7, seven days a week. There used to be this old like in the 90s. There was this old law firm that had that. You can call us New Year's Eve at midnight. You can literally call us New Year's Eve at midnight, and it's confidential, it's free and you can remain anonymous. And while we're on the topic, real quick, because this is actually a good stopping point, because I'm going to go into the financial barriers you call that a hotline. You don't have to do anything, you don't have to know what to say, you don't have to know where to start. Our counselors are trained. I participate in training the hotline counselors and I train them to say look, if a client doesn't know where to start, you ask them. Okay, maybe you want to start with the most recent. Maybe you want to start with the most painful.
Speaker 2:Right, it's our job. It's our job to figure it out. But you don't have to do anything, just make the phone call, just have the conversation and then you can make an informed. Because I say that, like we, it is on, it is up to you, because I say to people all the time if you're going to say no to something, that's okay, but understand, know what you're saying no to, because if it might be a no right now, but it might a month from now when something else clicks and you go, wait a minute, I know my rights here. Do you see what I'm saying? And that's really important, and don't listen. You know, one of my big issues was during the COVID lockdown, which we like to think is gone and behind us, but we are still having fallout from it. Domestic violence incidences went up in severity and quantity by something like 30%.
Speaker 1:Well, because everybody was home and everybody lost their jobs, and we are still seeing those numbers.
Speaker 2:Our hotline calls have increased by 30% to 40% and they have not gone down. And one of the things that the offenders did was they lied to because other countries.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had said this in our first one, in our they lied and said that we weren't open or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, guess what? We are always. Oh wait, I don't care what's happening, we hurricane, I don't care, we are here, we believe you and you are not alone. Um, so that's actually a great opportunity to start talking about the financial aspects.
Speaker 1:Yes, and we're definitely going to talk about that and the risks, the safety risks, the safety risks in a part three. Yay, so you will be back, but thank you so much, it's been so helpful we had such helpful information today, as usual. Thank you, guys, so much for having me. You're welcome and that is dating daycare, why they don't leave and, of course, me putting the the pin in it just say go fuck yourself, all right, and move on anyway, all right, we love you, we'll see you soon. Bye.
