Growth - What It Takes to Build a Business That Lasts with Matthew Wigham

In this episode of the Stay Hungry Podcast, Joel sat down with Matthew Wigham, an entrepreneur who transformed a £5,000 loft boarding business into a seven-figure powerhouse, but his story didn’t start there. Matthew’s journey is a masterclass in spotting opportunities, taking calculated risks, and scaling a business the right way.

From cleaning windows to managing multiple teams, Matthew shares how he transitioned from working in his business to working on it. He reveals the key decisions that set him apart, including how he challenged industry norms, restructured pricing models, and built a rock-solid management team that allows him to step back without the business falling apart.

But success isn’t just about strategy, it’s about mindset. Matthew opens up about the importance of financial intelligence, the concept of “fast money vs. slow money,” and why he ensures that his investments fund his lifestyle, not just his day job. He also talks about his biggest lessons in leadership, delegation, and why hiring the right people is the key to long-term growth.

We dive into:

• How a £5,000 business purchase turned into a multi-million-pound operation.

• Why spotting opportunities where others see limitations is the key to growth.

• The mindset shift that helped Matthew step away from hands-on work and become a true CEO.

• The power of delegation, trust, and building a strong management team.

• Fast money vs. slow money - and how Matthew ensures his investments pay for his lifestyle.

Packed with insights, real-life lessons, and a no-nonsense approach to business, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

Listen now!

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
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Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

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Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Right, Matthew Wiggum on the Stay Hungry podcast. How are you doing? Alright, welcome to the show. Good stuff. So, what brings you here? Spend a day with you, a day at your company, a game of pool, Nando's. Oh, you're a bit of a pool shark, I noticed. Yeah, well, yeah, I like a game of pool. Yeah, just really here for some marketing advice and action. Wicked. Which we've done today, really, really happy about it. Just trying to really be the best I can be with Lofty Solution. Nice, and what's Lofty Solution for the uninitiated? Loft storage. So, we do board lofts out for storage, create storage space in people's houses, fit loft ladders, loft hatches, insulate lofts. Basically, any problem you've got with your loft. It's unutilised, wasted space in most people's houses. And we sort that out normally in a day. So, yeah, we've never had a day without a booking for over 10 years. But as us entrepreneurs do, we're always trying to be better for our customers and make the business as good as it can be. So, how did this come about? How did you end up? Oh, yeah, I go through spells where I fancy a change. I've got a window cleaning, commercial window cleaning business. And my mate was moving to Australia. And at the time, I bought and sold window cleaning businesses. And because my mate Mark knew about that, he was like, I've got a little loft storage business, me and the wife do. Would you help us sell it? And I was like, yeah, no bother, Mark. Let's have a pint, we'll sort it out, we'll sell it. So, he told me the details of what he did, boarding lofts out and everything. And he said, it's got all these tools. It's got a website. It's got a Land Rover Discovery comes with it that I use to put the boards. I was like, yeah, great. I was expecting him to say it'll be like 300 grand or something like that. I said, how much do you want for it, Mark? He said, I think about 5,000 pound. I was like, all right, yeah. I was like, hi. I said, you sure you're not underselling yourself? No, he said, it's done me well, I'm happy. I said, would you consider selling it to me for 5,000 pound? He was like, if you want it, yeah. I said, well, you show us how to go on. So, he's like, Mark's a good mate, quality lad, him and his missus. So, he's like, yeah, I'll show you how to go on. My brother-in-law who works for me on the cleaning business is a really good joiner. So, I said, it depends if Johnny will come. Because, obviously, I'm an accountant by trade and accounting technician. So, I said, I've got no chance of doing this. Johnny was like, yeah, I'd love to do it. I'd love a change. So, me and Johnny started off. And it came with, we called it the Land Crab. The Land Rover was an old Mark one, with a bent chassis. Because Mark used to take it off-roading in the woods and just rag it to death. And the thing, as you were driving to work, you were going along the road like this. Oh, my God. Yeah, but it did us for the first six months, anyway, and got the gait of the job. And then, I spotted, being brand new to the business, everybody did a package for 400 quid. You buy a ladder, a hatch, a light, and have seven boards and you're off for 400 quid. I was like, yeah, you're making 100 quid profit on it, but surely you can do more. And people were saying, why do I have to buy this package? Can I not have all my loft boarded out? I was like, yeah, you can. And it just wasn't the done thing. Everybody seemed to have decided there was this formula. You would do a ladder, a loft hatch, a light, and put seven boards in a loft. I was like, why? Why can't you tell the person that you make a home office in the loft, a hobby room, have as much storage as they wanted? So I think because I'd never done... I was brand new to the business. I was just good to see opportunities with it. So we've just grown from strength to strength from there. And I've just looked at it, not through a joiner's set of eyes. I've looked at it through the customer's set of eyes from day one, which I think has been kind of a magic ingredient, really. Not being a joiner by trade has actually helped me with building the business up. So let's rewind a bit then, because you mentioned you're an accounting technician. And then prior to that, so what's your story? Where have you come from? So I came from college. I got a job for, you know, Duncan Ballantyne. Yeah. He had a company called Quality Care Homes. You did, yeah. A big nursing group. Yeah, I worked as a payroll administrator. People probably don't know he did care homes and ice cream vans to start with. Big ice cream vans to start with. Then he got into the nursing homes in the end. I worked for him. Learned a lot about accounts, and I started doing a thing called AAT, which is an accounting technician course. Yeah, you do it before you do ACCA. Yeah, and yeah, I worked. I enjoyed doing that. And then there was an advert came up, got sent round for a company called Enron. Yep. You heard of them as well? Yeah. It wasn't me that made them bankrupt. Yeah, you're the scandal. No, so I went for that, and I was doing the treasury for them, looking after about 80 million quid and just putting it on different deposits and making sure all the bills got paid, which I think was actually a good grounding in time and... Cash flow....time and cash flow. Yeah, and it also was... I used to like to get it early on a morning and get the work done, which I also think was a good habit. But then the rest is history, because obviously that company was the biggest, I think biggest ever bankruptcy in history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. American company. So at that time, a lot of redundancies, and I just... I was sat playing Fiverside football, which we were just talking about before, and one of the lads who played Fiverside was wanting to sell a window cleaning business to go back to be a photocopier salesman. And I remember thinking, like, you've got your own business. You can go on holiday when you want. You can basically write your own wages by... Why on earth would you want to go back to be a salesman? But he said, I just like doing it, so it's just fair enough. So I was like, how much do you want for your business? He said, oh, I want five grand for it. So I bought the window cleaning business for £5,000 as well. That was how I started. And I knew that you could... I'd heard the lads talking down Fiverside. You know when you hear your lads saying, oh, yeah, I work by myself and make £30 an hour, and you're like, really? Because I only get 12 for being an accountant technician. But you actually knew it was real because you knew the lads. And I'd also worked a bit for my brother-in-law who was in the same business. I'd been kind of looking for the opportunity to get into it and just took the plunge. I've always been quite good with that, just taking the plunge with stuff, yeah. So bought the window cleaning round and then just instantly saw the potential with that as well and built that up to a good business. Moved out of London, set up a cleaning business down there. Which was amazing. What do you think's given you this spark to want to be in business and set up businesses? Because it's unusual. Like people listening to this have, I have. But like we discussed before, my wife thinks I'm insane. Yeah, it is. I think it's just seeing how limited the opportunities are. When I moved out of London, the two lads who were great friends that I moved down with were very much career orientated. Good job in the council, good job in Royal Mail. And they both did very well in their respective fields at it. But I also saw that they had to devote their life to it. So I'll be down there cleaning some windows. Half two in the afternoon, I'm finished, I'm back home. looking for something to do and they're not getting back in the house till 10 o'clock at night because they've been to meetings and they're on there. They're in that rat race aren't they, like that career rat race that people are in. And I always remember looking thinking yeah you're doing well and I respect that but I don't want your life. I want to be a free spirit and a free soul. I want to be able to do, if you ring me up for a game of golf tomorrow, I don't care whether I'm a millionaire, as long as I can say yes to you. As long as my bills are paid and I can say yes to you for a game of paddle or something. That's how I want to live my life on my terms and the only way I can see of doing that really, I don't know if you know a better way is to have your own business. And with that obviously comes different responsibilities, different things and different problems to solve. So obviously the window cleaning business in London was going well. This is your round at this time? Yeah just working by myself down there. And how many properties on your round? Oh I had over 400 customers. I literally built them up. How this happened, Jimmy who's got a business in London now, a real quality friend of mine, he always knew I was a good canvasser, so like you know just not being bothered knocking on a door. So as we were stuck on the North Circular in traffic, Jimmy's always got an eye for a business. He says look, he says Christopher, that's my nickname, Christopher. Those windows are filthy, they're gobbling over there. Why's your nickname Christopher? I don't know, I could not tell you. It came about from somewhere. Oh wait a second, there was a reason. Was there a celebrity called Christopher Biggins? There is a celebrity. Yeah, it came from that and then my nickname obviously, my surname being Wiggum, I used to get Wiggins at football. So it went from Christopher Wiggins, it went from Wiggins to Biggins, then to Christopher Biggins. Internally here, because you're a client, we call you Wiggo. Wiggo, yeah. And then at football I get Lofty, Lofty Stuck as well, yeah. Then I went to our business mentorship that we're both in and they call you Lofty. Yeah. And I was like, who the fuck's Lofty? Yeah, I've got a few names like, but Christopher ended up sticking anyway, so he said go and knock on them houses there. So I jumped out the car in the traffic jam and by the time I'd knocked 20, I already had two customers signed up for like triple the price what we would get in the North East. Yeah, yeah. So at the time for a front you'd charge five quid to clean them and I was knocking on them saying 15 and they were saying, oh yeah, as if it was cheap. So me and Jimmy just set up a round, just canvassed it from scratch and we would just travel down. Once a month go and blitz it for three days. Making back in 2002 this was, making 500 quid to a grand a day in 2002, which up here was just not possible. Yeah, yeah. With the air prices, so saw that there was just like proper opportunity to make big money, which there still is, like London with trades you can make an absolute fortune. Yeah, yeah, like you look at companies like Pimlico Plumbers and stuff and how they did it. Amazing results. Multi, multi millions, yeah. So, but that's very different right, like with your mate doing round the windows, 400 people, it rotates every couple of weeks or whatever it might be, to building out a business, having a team, buying and selling window cleaning businesses. So yeah, how did you go from loving the freedom and obviously having really good disposable income for your age as well, to having the discipline and the curiosity to actually turn it into, I'm hesitant to say a proper business, because it is a proper business. Yeah, the window cleaning was and still is a proper business, but I think it was being ready for a change and I think what's made the difference is, with the window cleaning and the gutter cleaning, I'm hands-on and I always was hands-on, but I think because I took on a joinery business and I'm not a joiner, it forced me to be hands-off. So you had to kind of be a CEO straight away. I had no choice but to be a CEO from day one. I think, although most people will be a plumber and start plumbing business up, I think if you've just got a reasonable, I'm not clever and I'm not particularly, I haven't got any particular gifts apart from, I'd say I'm strong with people skills, that's probably my main gift. You should be alright at numbers. And reasonable, yeah I'd say, again I'd say I was never going to make an amazing accountant, but I've got a solid grasp, solid grasp of how a business's accounts work. I'm pretty good with mental arithmetic, especially like quick. Good in a pub quiz. Yeah, reasonable, yeah, good enough, 7 out of 10, 8 out of 10 type of thing. But I think being forced to think, right, who can help me with this? How am I going to board this loft out? Who can board this loft out for me from day one? And having to just recruit joiners and then I thought, I was like holding a sack of the ark and then I had two joiners on board. All I needed to do was go and know how to price the jobs and I can pass them on to these people and then just from then growing on, like Duncan Ballantyne, I remember saying in his book, I had one ice cream van and he couldn't see why you wouldn't want two. If you had one successful ice cream van, why wouldn't you have two successful ice cream vans? Same with the loft business. I've got one successful loft fitting team, why not have two? Why not have three? As long as you can fill them and you can fill the diary and keep the custom and keep the standards. Yeah. And then I guess, I'm still working to this day, putting processes in place and- As every business owner. Managers, a strong management team. So that, you were saying, how does it become successful? Having a good management team is absolutely the case. I've got a real three person strong management team with me, self in charge of that. And those, my sales manager, my office manager and my installations manager, they were all either family or very, very close lifelong friends that I can trust. And being able to trust and delegate things is the key to it growing and being successful. And getting good people on board, like yourself, a good marketing team. I think a lot of people just try and do everything themselves and burn out, whereas I just, I think I'm good at delegating as well. Yeah, and knowing what to delegate, I guess. And spotting talent, like knowing good people. So being able to suss out who's going to add value in my business. How'd you do that? I think a bit of gut instinct and a bit of looking at what they've done. Like, I look, like, really, like, I think about people, like, you know, like, a person who tells me a lie or tells me about a lie they've told somebody else while we're down the pub or after a game of football, I'd ever forget that. Yeah. I kind of, without trying, make a mental note of it and I think I would rather take somebody who doesn't really know what they're doing but is willing and keen but who is loyal, loyalty and trustworthiness. Yeah. And doing what you say you're going to do, which is obviously our, one of our being. Yeah. I find, like. I'd rather get them and train them than have a person who's meant the job really clever and devious, he'll stab you in the back. Yeah, I think we meet a lot of people in our game who are either really bigging themselves up and a little bit devious. Yeah. Or quite self-deprecating but secretly quite successful. Yes, I see that. And I always warm to the self-deprecating type, the ones that are a bit more humble. Yeah. And it's not that there's anything wrong with being proud of what you've done or anything, but you know when someone's really keen to tell you they've had a record month, that always worries me a bit. Yeah, I know what you mean. So you've got this incredible loft boarding business going, you've also still got a window cleaning business going. How are you managing all of that? I'll just say by having people you can trust to run it. Yeah. I don't breathe down people's neck at all. I just, I give a set of people, this is what job needs doing. Johnny, can you manage these three loft fitting teams? Simon, can you look after these 30 customers this week? Sharon, can you invoice and send a thank you letter to all these people and just let them get on with it? It's pointless giving them the job and then breathing down the neck and basically doing the job again yourself. Yeah, there's two people doing the job, yeah. I just keep an eye on, I keep a close check on a couple of things which I guess some people wouldn't. Probably with being in an accountancy background, I keep a check on the bank account. So I like to be, one of the one jobs I won't give up is paying the wages out. I like to control the money and control who gets it. I'm the same, it's interesting that. Yeah, I think, for me I don't get it because one of my real sort of, not like heroes sort of people I look up to is James Sinclair. And he always says give that away straight away. He'll say like get an accountant or a bookkeeper to do it. But what happens if I get a bent accountant? What happens if somebody's fiddling me? The only way I know that for me is to look at my bank account every day and know where my money's going. If I stop that, to me I've lost control of my business if I'm not, in the old fashioned term, signing the checks. Yeah. These days it's a fast transfer, yeah. Yeah, you know, bills need paying and we can't always be the people to pay them and stuff. But you do need to have some oversight. Yeah, I get this. Me and Jimmy always have a bit of banter and crack about this because he has this rubbish system where he has to ring his accountant for a code and the payroll takes him like three hours to do. And I'm like, I'm paying 20 people's wages and it takes me 10 minutes. Yeah, just on your phone. Yeah, literally ping, ping, ping, it's gone, it's done. And like, I've just got a tick list at the back of my journal with everybody who needs paid. I send Johnny a message, has anyone been off this week? Yeah, Tom's been off one day. So he's only getting paid for five days. And bang, the wages are done. But I know exactly what's happening and that gives me a sense of, it just gives me an overview of what's happening with the business. I keep that job. I can't even remember what question I'm answering. By the way, I'm just- How do you balance it all? Yeah, I work on a morning early. So what I need to do, I get done. I have a little morning routine. I just get on and do what I need to do. How does that, what does that look like? Responding to customers' questions, checking out, I like to go out and do some quotes because that's a part of the job I enjoy. So I still like closing deals with people. More, I would say, rather than closing deals, it's making friends and connections and giving people the right advice and then the deal closes itself. So I still enjoy that feeling and I enjoy a bit of crack with the fitters and I enjoy taking a personal interest. I think anyone who's worked for me will know that they're not just the number in the company. I actually care about them personally. So I'll spend a bit of time each week showing some appreciation with people, doing something practical for people. Yeah, goes a long way. Yeah, and I think that breeds a bit of loyalty. But fitters and my team have been with me for years, most of them, and I hope they'll be with me for years to come. So that saves you having to constantly recruit new staff, which is another- There's something you mentioned there about sales and that it's about building relationships. Yeah. Where did you learn that? Because that's unusual. I think it's a few things. I think not being afraid of rejection comes from being brought up as a Jehovah's Witness. Okay. So, you know, going out knocking on doors to people, talking about religion, you get a lot of rejection. Yeah, I bet. So I was used to having doors slammed on my face, buckets of water chucked out the window, and people just generally don't want you there a lot of the time. You're out consistently every Saturday and Sunday knocking on hundreds of doors. Rejection just means nothing to you. And how- So if somebody says to me, no, I don't want that, I don't take it to heart, it doesn't spoil my mood or anything. So when you first had to do that as a kid, and was this because of your parents? Yeah, my parents are Jehovah's Witnesses, yeah. How did they teach you to deal with rejection? Just that it wasn't you that was getting rejected, it was the message. So if the person wasn't interested in the Bible, that that was their choice, that's their free will completely, it's up to them if they say yes, but you might meet somebody who was interested, which would be great. And I never resented it, I actually used to enjoy going and knocking on doors, just like quite, with nice people, with a nice group of people. Some days you'd meet some really interesting people and you got used to talking to older people, like, and I can get on well with old age pensioners, and get on well with children, but I think I had, I'd just been exposed. Good with dogs, I've seen that. Good with dogs, yeah, you get dogs coming to the door, and you've just got to be used to being exposed to everything and not being worried, and just being, obviously a bit of training as well about being really friendly to people. Really try to help people, show a personal interest in people, and all that stuff, and like, being brought up as a Jehovah's Witness was great, because if you look at what we get taught with Paul Morton Alliance, like, do what you say you're gonna do for people. I got taught from being a kid, make a yes being yes, and you no mean no. It's the same, same lesson. Yeah, same things, a lot of what's in the Bible is just rock solid, good values, like, and I think that helps with treating people to do unto your neighbour as you do to yourself. So when I do a quote for a loft, I treat the person like, if it's an older person, I treat them the way I want somebody to treat my mother. If it's a person, a woman the same age, the way I want my sister to be treat. If it's somebody like you, the way I want my brother to be treat. Yeah, yeah. And I just have that approach to every customer. I don't do what's best for me, I do what's best for them. So I give them the advice, this is gonna be what works best for your property. It's what I would do in my mom and dad's house. Yeah, and then let them make the decision. And let them, yeah, and I never try and close a deal, ever. I just give them the best advice, give them a fair price, and just, and then I'm there for anything they need. Yeah, it's interesting. And ironically, you then end up closing deals, but you don't have to make any effort to make anyone awkward or get stressed. If it doesn't close, it might not be the right thing for them. Well, and something you've mentioned to me before, is people might not go with you to start with, because you've not been the pushiest. Yeah. But they end up coming back anyway. Yeah, that happens quite a lot as well. Yeah. And sometimes, I mean, this is something we learnt off Paul as well. That follow-up I did before Christmas was mental. I got some great results off that. You think, because people haven't shook your hand and bought off you on the day, that it's dead. But sometimes, it's just not the right time. The boiler might break, the car might break down, and the people you've done quotes for, even a year or two afterwards, just drop them a message, say, are you still interested in off-storage space? You could do that again at the moment. Are you still interested in window clean? Are you still interested in your boiler service? And whatever it is, just ask them the question, are you... still interested in this, any questions, any help you need give me a shout, simple question like that, nobody can take offence to that, but following up I think, and just before Christmas I think I closed over about 20, 20 deals just off old people who had already done. And what's that like worth to your business? Well it can vary, it could just be a loft hatching ladder for 400 quid, it could be a garage, one of them was a garage conversion for 22 grand, so it could be like. So those 20 conversations roughly? Well I'd have to check Brownie, I'd have to keep you right, I think December sales figures might have been about 200 grand, and a big chunk of that would have been. And how many text messages did you have to send? A few! I think I sent over 500 in December. So let's say it was 100 grand you did off that. Yeah. People listening to this, if I said you've got to send 500 text messages but the result is you'll have 100 grand in your bank, most people are going to say yes to that. You can send 500 text messages in 5 days. Exactly, I can't take any credit for it, it was 100% Paul Mort's advice. And a little bit of mine, just saying. It was just off that training he did, just said, people who've already held their hand up or you've done work for before, why aren't you contacting them? Why are you still spending money on contacting people who don't know you? I'm still doing it. Well we're in spring cleaning season right now aren't we, so people are putting stuff away, changing the decor in the house, changing their ornaments around and all that, and it's time to go again. That's the beauty of the loft business. Same with window cleaning really, it's like you're getting into the period now where people want their windows cleaned regularly because otherwise they look smeared. That's it, the first time the sun starts coming through at an angle in March. Everyone realises how dirty their windows are. The only trouble is if you are window cleaning it also shows up the streaks you've left as well, so if you're going to get a complaint it'll be in March as well. And then on the window cleaning business, because that's such a transactional business, it's like I need my windows cleaned, I need them cleaned every other Tuesday and I'm going to leave you the key to the back gate and trust you to just sort it. How does knocking on someone's door to getting them to trust you with the back key to their gate go? People have always done it. People have always trusted me I think because they can. Because if you left me with a million quid and you're kidding your dog and you said I need to go away for two days, I wouldn't ask you to do that, but if you did everything would be there when you returned, just because that's my, being honest your core value isn't it. So I think people can. But like in trades of all kinds, loft boarding, window cleaning, plumbing, electricians, it's a stereotype to be very unreliable. I've lived in my house for three and a half years, I've had six window cleaners because they just stopped coming. This must be the easiest industry. It is, it's a great industry and if I wasn't so tied up in the lot, in how hard I've had to work over the last 13-14 years with the lofts, I'm sure I would have built my window cleaning business to a massive scale. It's a good business just as it is but I haven't been able to devote the time to both, it's difficult. But yeah, it's an amazing business and the ones that take it professionally, that just turn up. But I think because it's a me-too business, because all you really need is a ladder and a squeegee and a bucket to start off with, people do it and then when they're, what happens quite often is somebody will get laid off for company and they'll sit around for three weeks and think, I'm not doing this, I'll start up a window cleaning round. They start it up and six months later they get the job opportunity they really want and they just walk away from it. Which actually, if you're in the business in the long haul, you'll find that over 10-15 years you'll pick up all them jobs by just being the most consistent person. Yeah, and I think it's understanding your craft isn't it and actually, there is a skill to it because you have to be able to get it done in a certain amount of time to make it viable and to make it the right price for the customer. And also it's come rain or shine isn't it, you're out in all weathers and if the weather's too bad you can't do your job and all this kind of stuff. And actually that's an amazing grounding for anyone going into any business because you're having to learn to accommodate the situation, learn to be flexible, learn that things aren't always going to go your way. And I guess that probably explains why a lot of window cleaners are unreliable because they figure out all the basic skills they need for any other business. Yeah, and then move on to something else quite often. But the ones who stay, if you want to, I might one day go back to it and really take it seriously, I'm not sure, but it's such a good business, not an underrated business, especially since the water fed pools came along. Because once over there was the hardship of having to climb up and down the ladder and the risk of it, now with a good water fed pool system, anybody, not saying this in a sexist way, but it's opened the industry up to women for me. I think some women do really well at it, because you can get a Gardner 18ft carbon fibre pool and your 10 year old kid can use it. To be realistic, a woman living on her own is going to prefer a woman coming round to clean her windows than a bloke. I mean couples, a husband and wife team is a very successful combination. I think a couple of young lasses, you tend to find people, if more young lasses knew what it could do for them, you would have a lot more women window cleaners I think, because it's just such a good flex. Well you were doing a grand a day 20 years ago. Yeah, back in 2002. Depends where you are in the country, but you can easily, people who don't believe it, you can make £500 a day on your own. If you price your work right, you get your round organised, there'll be people out here who'll happily testify, and lads that I know that make over £500 a day just on their own. That's in the North East. And if you're knocking off your costs of that, what's left in the pot? The thing is, if it's you doing the work. Just fuel and water. Yeah, and your vehicle, you might use as your day to day, you might have a little bilingo van which you use as you run about anyway to go to football in. It's basically your equipment and your water purification gear, but I'd say your profit margin in window cleaning, there can't be much out there to touch it. If you had a ladder and you did it the old fashioned way, and you already had a car anyway, it's like maybe your tenner a month for your QuickBooks if you're really organised. You could just have a book with your customer's details in. Your public liability insurance everyone should have, so you can get that as a one man band for £60 a year, and you're away. A website, as you know, you could go and make your own website. You can't make your own website. And just your free listings on stuff, and you're away. I always find it so funny when people come to me like, how do you go about setting up your own business? It's as if it's something mysterious. and there's something difficult about it you just literally start go out wash your house's windows and say it'll be 10 quid off 20 quid and send me to this account you even you there's nothing wrong with using your personal bank account you've obviously got a register a self-employed yeah and which is it which is a five-minute job online you can do it all online register and then just keep a record where your bank accounts keeping a record of who's paid you so and then just if you want to you can do your own accounts for the first few years no but if you if you get a bit bigger pay chart accounting 200 quid a year that's another cost but probably well worth yeah to check your claim and the allowances you're allowed to claim and you're away and like there's no barrier to entry which which is bad in a way because anyone you get constantly get people starting up doing it but a lot of businesses there's no barrier to entry well not marketing yeah you know yeah yeah 100% and well you've seen the same in the loft boarding game the amount of people that have gone I can ship this in from China and install it myself no that's that's probably the worst thing about the loft boarding game is that a little bit of a me too business as well yeah so you'll just get people doing it and saying well I don't need to do all them other things I'll just wire the light in myself I'll just board onto the joists. So what does that mean wire the light in yourself? You should have an electrician to extend the circuit in in the loft so you really need to use an electrician to do it but a lot of people will just do their own and stuff and then then you'll get people putting the framework in the way they think but using the lot you know the plastic loft legs and then people you don't know if people are just gonna pop a suitcase or now they're gonna go and start doing yoga up there so there's a lot of things you can do wrong people say it's only loft boarding but there's a hell of a lot of things you can do wrong with it and so I think that's what gives it a bit of a bad rep is because there's not much barrier to entry and people think they know what they're doing but they don't. Yeah I mean I've seen on Amazon people buying their own kits with plastic stilts but then it's actually only rated up to 100 kilos some of them 25 kilos right yeah there's not many 25 kilo people or suitcases. Have you seen my wife's suitcase. Pulls your arm out of it's socket. Can you carry mine? Yeah there is that about it but I guess unless you've got a real like regulated industry industry yeah it's difficult. So what's like a typical thing someone has a light installed and extends the circuit in their loft yeah and then they go to sell their house and they haven't had that signed off they'd have to so what you get is the solicitor just asks them for a Part P certificate for it and then they haven't got it so then you have to buy a little insurance policy you have to buy an indemnity policy what it tends to do is cause panic at the last minute you know people are trying to get the deal done and all of a sudden it stalls because the solicitor hasn't got the electrical certificate with our case it's not an issue because we just go back and reissue it for them yeah because we've got a copy of the certificate on file but if people don't we quite often get people on the phone in a panic saying we've had our loft done by such and such but we haven't got a now they're not answering the phone can you get us one so we'll I'll charge them obviously but yeah we can do it but yeah like a doctor's note. It's one of them things it should just be done from the start so but yeah there's a lot there's a lot of cowboy techniques going in the industry because people don't it's one of them things a bit like gutter cleaning whereas we when we do our gutter cleans we always provide digital photographs and evidence of the cleaning once people's lofts been boarded out nobody knows what's under that floor yeah and whether the framework's been done properly or whether it's sagging or choices have been cut. So you actually provide the photos? Yeah we provide photographs of how the cleanings been done we can provide photographs of the framework quite often we'll frame it out show the customer take a photograph of it also to cover our backs as well and it's all insulated properly. And then if they ever need a surveyor or anything they can show? Yeah and also screw everything down so if anything ever needs to be removed to access anything it's a five minute job and it can all be put back without damaging things. A lot of companies it's so much quicker to use a nail gun so just go in bang bang bang bang bang it's down in half the time it takes us but if ever they need to access a lighting circuit or there's a problem or there's a leak you're screwed you can't get the nails back out without damaging the ceilings. What's the worst things you've seen in people's lofts? Oh some mental things like I'd say the worst when we come across every week is engineered roof trusses being chopped through so that's a weekly occurrence that most of our competitors just chop straight they calculate to support the weight of the roof and the weight of the plasterboard underneath them but for convenience companies just chop through them once you've chopped through them and the way the load spreads it passes on to the other trusses so we'll see ceilings sagging and we'll see customers whose roofs sagging and the companies that do it you never hear from them again like. And to repair that is a much bigger job. It's a bigger undertaking yeah it's it's obviously a nightmare for the customer because they've already paid once to have the job done and they shouldn't have to pay again. Yeah so they've potentially paid a grand, had a bad job done, you've come in similar sort of price but then it's like oh but the bad news is you've got to repair this as well yeah so yeah there's a lot of that goes on. Unsafe loft ladders, people like boarding straight onto the ceiling joists or when you're stepping on them the ceilings are cracking underneath. The other one that's really bad is just people taking the insulation out and boarding onto the joists so the house is freezing cold so it's kind of good. Where are they putting the insulation? They'll stuff it down the eaves around the corners and that which then blocks the air flow and the ventilation out so then the customers, you go and the customer's got bad condensation and the house is freezing cold and it's good for us in a way because we know how to put it right. We take the floor up, put the correct level of insulation in, put the correct joists in, refit a proper tongue and groove flooring system and make sure that the eaves are clear yeah and then if need be we can put ventilation along the rafters and along the ridge as well to make sure they don't get condensation. So that's kind of a lot of our work is putting stuff right putting stuff right yeah. Is that like a consideration if you're putting your suitcase in the loft don't stuff it down the eaves sort of thing? Well you shouldn't have it touching the membrane okay so you should always have it if whatever you're storing in the loft whatever membrane you've got whether it be an old felt membrane or like a new membrane the membrane works by being able to sit off the tiles yeah and if you push it up against the tiles you will get moisture coming through and rain coming through or you could also be blocking off ventilation by stuff and things so I'd say always have things off not touching the membrane yeah good policy. Right I think we've covered a lot there yeah but something we haven't covered that I know you've got quite a bit of knowledge on and I think it's useful for business owners you are a successful bloke you've got your own investments now yeah and you talked me through earlier how you pay for your family fun holidays and yes time away and that the family fun goes in the diary first before anything else and the concept of slow money and fast money. I wish I'd learned this years ago but unfortunately I only learned it in 2020 but it was partly off Rich Dad Poor Dad that system but really the credit goes to James Sinclair's Entrepreneurs Masterclass which I went down to Essex for, he just explained that stop buying flash cars stop going on expensive holidays until you've got an investment company that's paying for them so his concept is which is now my concept as well is to get 50% of your money at least if you can do 50 but if you can only do 20 do 20 because not everyone can afford to give away 50% fast money is your income off your job if you're employed or your net profit of your company is your job would be lofty yeah and yeah but say if you had like if you had a good job as a salesperson or a job like that if you could put 20% of that into investments so investments could be properties that you went out it could be gold it could be silver it could be cryptocurrencies and it could be like bonds government bonds anything or stocks and shares put your money that you earn quickly into that and as that matures and pays you dividends or rent the money that comes off that pays for your phone and for your cars so any material things you buy like treats luxuries yeah your vehicle that you run your pet not your business vehicle you van obviously you put through your business in company but your personal vehicles paid for with that and your holidays and luxuries come out of that slow money so if the first time you do it you think well I've only been able to put this away and all it's made me this year's 100 quid that means that you get a weekend camp in the Lake District but it's come it's essentially come there for free yeah and then retain the original you've retained all and all your original money's locked away and James used to describe them a great little description as slaves remember back in the bad old days of the slave trade when you put your slaves to work for you he calls pound coins slaves so all your pound coins that go from your fast money to your slow money and now your slaves and once you put them to work in captivity for you making your money you never let them escape the state they stay in there all the life so all you ever keep doing is adding to your investment pot and then the rents and the dividends you collect off that is what pays for your life yeah and you keep that loop going using your income to go into your assets and the income that comes off your assets funds your life and whereas most people earn their income and pay for the life it's just a straight through transaction yeah it's putting that extra transaction yeah exchange in time for money which is what majority of the country majority of most countries people just swap the time for money because even if you swap in time for your money and that covers all of your bills to me the thing to do is get a little side hustle that makes you so many use your side hustle as your slow money and invest that that part of your money because there could be people say well I make two grand a month and I need every penny of that to live and some people make would make say that and go to my sister's charity in Shildon my sister's got like teachers and nurses that have to go there to get food from the food bank and I believe it's not it's not bollocks it's true so if you've got that situation then I think you've got no choice at that time but to create a little side hustle a way to make yourself some income you've got to use your imagination about that as well it could be way you had a window clean around on a Saturday morning yeah do the customers in your street do custom car washing as long as you're making 50 100 pound a week and you're investing that it's mad within within a few years the all of a sudden then you might have 10 grand in that account or a grand you might be a buy yourself a little business I bought businesses for five grand I've been given businesses by asking them for free you can do that if you've got a little bit of money as if you always got zero in your bank you can't do anything you've got no flexibility so that that little loop that system of fast money into slow money and you're slow money paying for your life I think that's a game-changer for anyone. There is real simple ways to do it as well my wife quite recently had an operation so for four months at home never had that in her life before and so she found charity shops online yeah and just went on eBay to see what some of this stuff was selling for on eBay saw the stuff that was a good opportunity and we were getting all like and she was looking on vintage and other places to all this stuff showing up at the house and parcels she was flipping it and making like 10x genius yeah because she'd be like oh that's a Gucci belt for sale at that charity shop for a tenner and what she's done there she's just used her financial intelligence she knows that's worth more yeah you know she can get it for that yeah you won't take if anyone puts their mind to it it won't take them long to find a little niche there'll be a little window or there'll be something that they can buy and add value to it and I'll make it better than it is to create that little window of profit to sell it I think that what you said your missus doing the vintage eBay is a great thing there's little small businesses you could set up and to do that there's there is there's a lot of different ways I know a few but because I know a few I've then not looked yeah for others but there's so many ways to skin a cat you just have to have a bit of initiative like the key ways you've added value in the businesses that you've got involved in and so give us another question like put another way cuz I'm trying to think there's a few ways I can think of so you've just taken on a five grand loft boarding business yeah and it's obviously doing all right yeah because you wouldn't have given him five grand for it but what did you do to take it from being a five grand loft boarding business to what is a seven figure business now yes and looked at what else I could sell so this not selling the package I thought straight within a couple of months I thought we're not doing these packages anymore and then I also just tried I was like I want this customers over the moon here well I'm looking at how much value this is worth more than 400 quid so I just said the first customer yeah we've got this package we'll do it for you but it's 650 quid fantastic and I thought myself straightaway mark there was leaving 250 quid on the dining table over and over again and so were all the other loft companies so I think I think this would be fair to say some of the other loft companies might disagree with me but it's been a great thing for the Northeast loft boarding business me coming on board because everybody now makes more money than they did when I started without a shadow I remember there was one guy who'd made two grand a week and he thought it was like unbelievable that he made two grand in a week and I was like within a year we were making five grand a week on it and I was like and now I think because people learn all my competitors are all better off financially all our things yeah they wouldn't have had if I hadn't just challenged the norm the status quo in the norm was you charge 400 quid why who decided that why did you know to challenge that just because I always have them so for instance when I started window cleaning the lad I bought the right Every house you charge three quid for and I was like why do you charge three quid for that? That's ridiculously cheap. I remember just a new customer came up and said can you do mine as well? I was like yeah, it'll be ten pound. Yeah great, thank you mate. And instantly I'd gone up from three quid to ten quid. And then over time I'd just put my prices up each year a pound until I think ten quid's a great, what was a great deal back then for a three bedroom detached house. So you don't have to charge what other people charge to be good value for money. So I'll run you through a story. So we, pre-Covid we designed a local schools website. Yeah. We did a price that we were happy with, didn't think anything of it, didn't know what other people quoted. We've looked after that website for seven years. I think they've had a good service. Yeah, yeah. They came back to me in January and said oh we like it refreshing, you know seven years is a long lifespan on a website. Yeah, yeah, of course we'd love to. Yeah, just let us know what costs are involved. I said well you've been loyal to us. I appreciate you've been with us from when we were a tiny business to what we are now. So I'm not going to have your hats down. Also he's a headmaster so he's quite scary. And just gave him three prices. I'll let you know bells and whistles, I'll let you know budget and I'll let you know in the middle. Great. Messages me back. I'm going to have to think about it. I was like oh bollocks. Jumped on a call with him yesterday. He's like I'm actually really interested in your bells and whistles package. Yeah. Right. Yeah. He says we had to go out for quotes after we received your proposal because part of our education trust we need to get three quotes. I was like well you didn't say that to start with. He was like well I hadn't seen your prices then. Because you don't have to get three quotes. Anyway he's like we're coming back to you and I'd like your premium package. That's an odd conclusion. We were a third of the price of the next nearest quote. Mental. I don't know whether I feel sick or not. Are you happy with what you were getting? I've realised that perhaps not. No. I was happy when I quoted it. I think the reality of business is that when a shock like that happens to you take a step back and go well they can't just be ripping people off because two separate businesses have quoted three times more than us. And that I then started thinking about all the things that are involved that are away from actually being on the tools. Like the admin, the telephone calls, the meetings, dealing with the hosting companies. That you're essentially doing for free. So we're probably not ever going to be as expensive as those two companies. But it was a harsh lesson to learn yesterday. I don't know if it would be any help to you but I have a roughish guideline that if over 50% of people that I'm quoting for are booking in and going for it, if it's much over 50% I've got the opportunity to raise the prices a little bit. If it ever drops to 50% or below I'm probably where I should be. It's a rough tool but I think if you're getting it, if every customer is saying yes straight away and not even thinking about it, you probably need to look at your pricing. And I'd say, not on our marketing packages but on our websites, we've probably not had a no for two years. Yes, there could be a clue in there. Okay, so I've got two questions I ask every guest on this podcast. The first question's for me and the second question's for the listeners. What's your favourite film and why? American History X. It's a good film. I just love how it challenges. It got banned for being a violent racist film but if you actually think about the film, it's the exact opposite of a racist film. And I just loved the way that it went from extreme far-right, neo-Nazi racist to being best friends with a black man in prison who actually saved his bacon. Then coming out but seeing to try and resurrect that, wrong thinking. But it already had its consequences. I just thought it was a real deep It had a much deeper meaning than the surface of the film. I've always been very anti-racist so I like the fact that anyone who's got preconceived ideas can challenge them. And realise that they're wrong, that human beings are human beings and you get good human beings and you get idiots. And the majority of human beings I believe are good and will help you. The fact that we do our work and all of our customers pay us to me is evidence that people are mostly good. So for me for instance in the trades a lot of my competitors won't deal with Indian and Pakistani, Asian customers because they're quite open about it. Whereas for me, I just treat everybody on merit so I'm quite happy to take on African customers, Indian customers. I'm just straight as a die, honest and friendly. And I won't put any rubbish off any customer. So it doesn't matter. So I'm like, you cannot ring Mrs. Back but I'll ring her and I'll happily work for her. So I'm just very open and I think that's American History X, I go back to that, I just think it's a great movie. I think Ed Norton plays an amazing part in it. I'd recommend it but there was a scene it got banned for but that's not what the movie's about. It's a bit of just a violent scene. I don't really like gucci which is violence, I don't really watch violent movies. There is a purpose to that scene. How about me? My favourite film's called A Place Beyond the Pines. It's Bradley Cooper and Ryan Gosling. I like them both. And it's a film in two parts. So the first half of the film is about two dads and the life they live and how it intertwines. And one's got a slight criminal element to him and the other's a police officer so you can imagine how they start to cross over. And then the film sort of stops and it starts again and it's about the impact their lives had on their son's lives and then you follow their two sons and how their lives cross over and the sins of the father will visit the son type of thing. Now I've had a colourful life with my dad so you can see why I'm bought into that story. It's a beautifully shot film. You could watch it on mute and just look at it. I'm definitely going to watch that film. Or you could just listen to the music. There's a great supporting cast like Ben Mendelsohn's in it and Eva Mendes and really really good actors. I really like it. It's a bit slow. I think modern audiences like fast paced but I'm not bothered. I'm a bit of a thinker. That's mine. I like a thought provoking film. If we went mainstream probably Rocky. Yeah, so yeah, I did the Rocky step. Classic entertainment. Yeah. Yeah, I love the underdog story. Most people don't realize that Rocky loses at the end of Rocky, doesn't win, that it's a love story. It's not really about boxing and like, I remember when I met my wife, I said we've got to watch Rocky and she couldn't believe it when she was crying at the end. Yeah. So I thought it was a fighting film. I was like, some of the later ones. I've got loads of films that I need to watch. You're not going to tell me you haven't seen Rocky. I've only seen, I think, a couple of halves of them. You know, all that wind up between the 80s and 90s, our family was so strict about what TV you could watch. So I wasn't allowed to watch stuff. Which I'm sure was some of it was good that I didn't watch. Yeah. Yeah, there's certain films like, me and my Mrs. Leanne, she's like, what? You haven't seen Back to the Future 2? No, because we walked out the pictures halfway through. I haven't seen that. Went against my parents' beliefs. So yeah, there's stuff like that. But yeah, I will watch the Rocky. You've given me loads of films to watch now. Oh yeah, the original Rocky and Place Beyond the Pines are brilliant. Yeah. Okay, last question. What's the best mistake you've ever made? Ooh. Oh, that's a... Honestly, couldn't tell you. I'm sure I've got plenty of mistakes. I'm just trying to think about which one's a good one. Urgh. Nah, sorry, mate. I'm coming up with a blank on that. I've made a few mistakes. I'm just trying to think of which one's good. Well, what's the best lesson you've ever learnt? I've got a time that sticks in my mind. When I wasn't very organised with my business and I wasn't putting any effort into my business. And it was a real cold winter, 2010, when we had the big freeze. It was minus ten for days. And I had a gas meter, lived in a house in Cornwall, I had a gas meter. And I had three or four customers that owed me about ten quid each. And I had to go round in three foot of snow to try and collect the ten pounds off them to put some money... And I got one ten pound in at the last minute. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to heat the house for the night. And I remember walking round in that three foot of snow. And that was a lesson. I thought I'm not going to be half arsed and half bothered with this business again. I'm going to stop just working and I'm going to build a business. And I remember just like vowing to myself in there. Matthew, you and your children will never be in this position again where the kids are sat in the house freezing cold. And you're off to walk around in three foot of snow for a tenner. You know when you just have to have something so painful and so horrible happening to you to spark something. And from that day I worked so much harder. And I never let myself get back into that position where I was not prioritising making money for my family. It's kind of not a mistake but it was a mistake that I hadn't... You needed to make that mistake. And to feel that pain. I'll never forget that pain. I know that hasn't come across on the podcast but I've said to a lot of people. Unless you've hit a real low you don't know what a high feels like. You've got to get there. You don't know what things are worth to you until you nearly lose them. The other thing with that is as I got that ten pound and went to the shop to pay my gas meter thing. I thought about using five of it for the gas meter and buying a bottle of wine with the other five. And that was a real jolt to me about where my priorities lied. As it happened I did the right thing and paid for the gas. Bought ten quid scratch card. That was a low day that one. So if someone wants to know more about Lofty Solution what do they need to do? Just go onto our website. I've got a podcast with Paul Moore recently. Watch this podcast. Our website is where we just deal with North East businesses. If you're a loft business from another part of the country. If you've got a catchment area say in Manchester, London. I'd happily talk to you and compare notes. So I think that's a useful exercise but I've just not found a partner to do it with yet. If you've got another marketing agency that you're not in direct competition with each other. Just spending an afternoon having a coffee and comparing notes. I might be able to help you with materials prices. About different types of loft hatches you can fit. You might have something that I've missed a trick with. So it's an open invite. Contact me on the website if you've got a loft business and you'd like to have a chat. And hopefully help each other out. I think that's a good exercise for business owners to do. Or if you're in the North East of England. From Richmond to Whitley Bay, Tynemouth. Across to Barnard Castle, Hexham. We cover all that area. And we'll do you the best possible job. If you're a loft with a lifetime warranty. So as long as you own your house everything's covered. And we stand by our warranty every time. I think our website's pretty easy to use. You can get my number off that. It should be. Thank you so much for coming on. Cheers, Joe.