Business - How to Let Clients Feel In Control (While You Stay In Charge)

In this episode of the Stay Hungry Podcast, Joel and Martha are back in the saddle and diving deep into a crucial, yet often misunderstood, aspect of business: the power of choice. They explore how strategically giving your clients options can make them feel empowered and in control, all while you remain the trusted guide steering towards a positive outcome.

Forget the old-school "railroading" tactics that make clients tetchy. Joel and Martha break down the fine line between sounding certain and confident versus being pushy. They share practical insights applicable to sales, delivery, and negotiation, emphasising the importance of structure to avoid getting stuck in "the chase." Hear their take on why offering two good choices is far more effective than a simple yes/no, and when you absolutely shouldn't give options (like when a client already knows exactly what they want!).

They also touch on the shift to shorter, more impactful discovery calls, the art of listening more than you speak, and how clear service packages can simplify decision-making. Plus, they reveal a major red flag to watch out for in potential clients and share the powerful question they now use to uncover what 'world-class result' truly looks like for the customer.

Key moments include:

• Why giving clients choice empowers them and keeps you in control.
• The difference between guiding clients and dictating to them.
• How to structure follow-ups to avoid the dreaded "chase."
• The strategic advantage of offering two good options.
• When not to give choices, especially when a client is certain.
• The importance of emotionally detaching from the sales result.
• Identifying red flags in potential clients who expect you to be the sole expert.
• Asking powerful questions to understand a client's desired outcome.

Packed with candid conversation and actionable advice, this episode will help you refine your client interactions and close deals with greater confidence and integrity.

Tune in to master the power of choice in your business!

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codebreakcrew/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

Joel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelstoneofficial/
Joel's Facebook: https://facebook.com/joelstoneofficial/

Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Martha, we're back in the saddle. Back in the saddle, it's cooler in here now, but it's actually really sunny outside, so everyone should really appreciate us. It's a Friday, it's sunny, and we are here. There's ice cream in the freezer. Did it not melt? Oh, you don't know about that. I do, but I only know half a story. Okay, well, I would eventually. For the listeners, every time I leave the office, something bad happens, and when I come back, I only get told half a story. Yeah, because we're protecting your peace. You don't need to know about things that- I like that. That's good framing, Martha. I'll take that. Protecting my peace into the weekend. Yeah, because if it's fixed, what do you, what- It's not fixed. There might be melted ice creams, and now I can't have an ice cream. Right, yeah, that is a disaster. But everything in the fridge was fine, so I'm sure they'll be fine. It might be a bit wet. I feel like I've got no choice. But- As a segue into what we're talking about. Oh, yeah. And how would you feel if you did have a choice? Like, I'd have more control. So, yeah, the point of what we're talking about is the power of choice and making your clients feel like they have control while still remaining in charge. As soon as you start railroading people in a set direction, they get a bit tetchy. And sales conversations, it can be the same. Like, you need to sound certain and confident, but not pushy. It's a fine line, isn't it? Yeah, and that's not just sales. That's delivery, negotiation. And to the point now where, like, sometimes I worry I seem a bit blasé, like I don't want their business. But I'm like, actually, this is probably serving me better because we've got lots of clients. If you don't want to wear it with us, it's kind of your loss. What's your psychology? So, like, now, I would, because of the experience that I've had here over the last four or five years, if I was, like, inquiring to go somewhere and they were constantly chasing me up, I'd be like, oh, maybe they've got a bit too much time on their hands. Yeah. If there was no set, okay, when are we talking next? I'd be like, oh. Yeah, I think structure's important. Structure's important. I think if it's like, I say to people on a call, I'm not letting you off this call unless we've got a follow-up call booked in because neither of us want to be stuck in the chase and we're both busy people. And that's not just because it's the right thing to do to try and close someone. It's also because I don't want to have to send a text message every day or make a call every day on a whim, on the off chance. Be in the DMs. Yeah, let's agree to chat next Monday at three o'clock and we'll both be there. Happy days. Three or four, give them a choice. Yeah, like, yeah, that's the thing. So, like, what do you mean by that? By? The three or four thing. Which suits you best? Well, if you, well, I don't know. Is this the right analogy when, if you back a rat into a corner, it's going to go for your nuts? But if you give it a left and a right, it'll pick one. That's a weird analogy. Is that a dream I've had? Have I made that quote up? I don't know. But I think what you mean is to say, like, if you just give someone something that they can definitively say no to, chances are they might say no. If you say, oh, we can speak Monday at three or Tuesday at four, they then say, I'm not available either at those times. And then you say, okay, how about Wednesday at eight or Thursday at four? And they say, I'm not available at those times either. Then you can be like, okay, this person's not interested. Whereas if you say, let's speak Monday at four and they come back and say, oh, I'm in a meeting then, then you've got to reply and say, oh, how about Tuesday at five? And then they're like, oh, I'm with my kids at five. And you're immediately in the chase. All of the momentum's gone. All the work you did with your marketing, videos, your podcast, out the window, and now they just see you as Chasey McChaserson. Like, is that what, this is totally off topic, but you were telling me earlier about two beavers that have been released. Marfa, what's wrong with you? Into the wild. Well, because that reminded me of the snowplough that was called- Boaty McBoatface. That'd be the one. No, that was the boat, but that was- Larry McPlyface. Something like that. Boaty McBoatface ended up being called HMS Sir David Attenborough, didn't it? Did it? Boaty McBoatface. And then they called the submarine on it, or the rescue boat on it, Boaty McBoatface, because obviously the public voted Boaty McBoatface. But what have they done for the beavers? They've- So in Shropshire, there's a beaver project, and they've released two beavers into the wild within a contained area, and heaven knows why that they decided to do a naming competition for two beavers. And you can imagine the comments on- I mean, it's almost genius, because the amount of attention it would have got. But they're a local wildlife trust with loads of children looking at their content, and there's some horrendous names for these beavers. I imagine. Hairy beaver. Yeah, and worse. Stop. So, yeah. What they've then done is said, oh, we've narrowed it down to three choices, and they've said, well, you can't pick from these, because they've had to. Because, sadly, people didn't go for, like- Boaty McBoatface. Yeah. Beaver Mc- Barry and Bill. Yeah. You can't have Beaver McBeaverson. So, yeah. But that's where choice is- Beaver McBeaverface. It's very different when you're giving choice to a single person, as opposed to when you're giving choice to the masses. Yeah. Giving choice to the masses is like- Insane. Well, yeah. I've talked about this on the podcast before, but the best way to get what you want out of your partner is to give them two choices and be happy with either result. So, it's like, do you fancy a takeaway tonight? They say yes, or no, but they probably say yes. Indian or Chinese? Because you know you're happy with Indian or Chinese. And they feel like they've got to decide. It's annoying when they then reply pizza, but it's like, that's- Better than what you want for tea, I don't know. Yeah, so, and I think like, this sounds manipulative and salesy, but if you apply that from a different angle of, I'm trying harder to be positive in all areas of my life, and when I give people options, I'm going to give them two good choices. So, it's like, do you want the good news or the better news? Yeah. Do you want to go to Spain or Italy? Not, like, do you want shit on toast or a funeral? But it really does help, and like, I find that when I've got difficult things going on or choices to make, listing out the positives that can come from each choice is a better way to approach it than looking at all the negatives that can come from each choice. And then that changes how you communicate with people, and then you get less afraid of giving people choice. Now, where I would avoid choice is where someone's already made their mind up. Then you're just giving them options, and it'll wind them up. So, if they come in- Give me an example, yeah. Well, someone might come to us and say- I want your gold marketing package, I want ads, funnels, landing pages, little bit of website support and an account manager. Can you do that? Have you seen our silver marketing package? And they'll be like, well it's ads only, but that might be a good place for you to start. But I said I wanted the gold one. You're just gonna piss people off and maybe do yourself out of a sale. And I see that with car dealerships all the time. People go in, people that go to car dealerships now are usually well rehearsed on the car that they want and they've looked it up before they got there. They know the spec, they know what sound system it's got, if it's got heated seats, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They walk in and the salesman comes over and goes, oh, I see you're looking at the new Ford Cougar. Could I interest you in the new Kia Sportage? No, I want a Ford Cougar. Yeah, but it's a bit bigger and it's got more features, you'll get more for your money. But I'd like a Ford Cougar. And then you see Dyped and they're like, well is the Ford Cougar not very good? Like, are they gonna get more commission on the Kia? Is the final, like what's going on? And so you shouldn't put people back into choice when they're certain, that's like anti-sales, anti-business growth. But when they're not certain, you should give them options. But guide them. Because giving someone blind options when they don't have a fucking clue what the answer is, again, surefire way to piss people off. Yeah, that's how you frame it as well, right? If you say like, do you wanna spend two grand on your ads? Or do you wanna get 10 new customers, 100 new leads? Yeah, do you want this or do you want that? This or that technique? Would you like to start next week or the week after? Like, would you like cream or ice cream? Chinese or Indian? Chinese or Indian, yeah. For me, thank you. And it keeps momentum going, so it makes the other person feel like they have a choice. And also, when you've asked a directional question that's got outcomes, you can be quiet again. And when you, like from a negotiation perspective, when you're silent, you're in control. So if I say to you, would you like a promotion or would you like to go to Disney? You'd probably say both. And then I just go quiet. You know that that's a serious thing to think about. Yeah, would you, how long would you be silent for? Or would you just totally? I think my record's 17 minutes. That was Ian. Was it? He tested me, because he knew the technique. What, just on a Zoom or phone call? Face-to-face. Stop it. Sat in here, 17 minutes. So I just looked at my watch and then let him, and he said, I just wanted to see how long you'd stay quiet for. I thought it was funny. Yeah, it is funny. He's in next week. Is he? Some guy, some guy. So, and I think by giving people choice, you're coaching them, so you're becoming the trusted guide. You're not dictating to them. And I think as a service business, that's a really good way to approach things anyway, to be like, are you more of a webinar person or would we be better off selling something pre-recorded? And they'll be like, oh, I love presenting live. Or they might be like, I hate presenting live, but I'm quite good on camera if I've got a day or two to do the filming. Right, okay. But then they feel empowered, because you've given them the choice. It's like, where there are agencies, they'll go, well, we only do webinars, and they have to be live. It's like, well, I'm shit at presenting live, and I don't have a webcam. Yeah, and I can't pitch. Yeah, and I can't pitch. And so, that's where people don't want to feel bossed. They don't come, like, people don't come to Code, they come to Code Break for us to become their boss. They come to Code Break for us to guide them to a result. And if you're guiding someone to a result, there's very often going to be forks in the road, and it's about helping them make a decision on whether they want to go left or whether they want to go right. And so, it's a bit like Donald Miller's story brand. He talks about, you should always be the guide, not the hero. You make the client the hero. But the guide helps the client make decisions on what to do. And sometimes they won't make the right decision, but they'll feel like they made an empowered decision, because you helped them. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I do love that book by Donald Miller. It was one of the first marketing books that I ever read. Oh, really? Yeah. Before you were here or when you were here? I think as I was transitioning. Careers? Yes. Just to be clear. So, how do you, like, create choice for people? Like, how do you? I struggle with this so much. I used to be such a yes woman. I used to say, I used to do what I thought the client wanted to hear, and not what I knew was the best thing for them, because I didn't want that confrontation. But inevitably, the confrontation would come further down the line when I'd be like, okay, well, now we should do this. And they'd be like, why didn't you tell me that before? Yeah, whereas now you would say, these are your two options. You'd know they were both good options. And I recommend. Which one do you want to go for? And if they say, well, which one do you recommend? It's like, well, there's pros and cons of both. I can read, I can let you know, and then you can make an informed choice. And I think that takes a lot of pressure off you as well. Like, as soon as someone becomes confused, you're losing them. As a customer, as a sale, as a friend. Well, I think I have to say something, because I'm running out. I know, sorry. I really, like, you are the sales, you did sales training recently, right, for some people? Here? Yeah. A little bit. What was the main outcome of that? What was the main point? I often find that when I do sort of sales and marketing training with people, they're massively underselling themselves, but they're massively overselling their features. And so, they don't give choice, they just fucking rabble on about all the things their widget can do, or their service can do. And actually, the best thing you can do is listen. So, I know your job is to find out as much information as you can, and see where their problems are, and where things lie, and then make them feel certain that you're the solution. How important is having clear, like, packages? So, like, gold, bronze, silver, gold, platinum? I think it has to be real, I think bespoke packages are a pain in the ass. I totally appreciate super high ticket work, sometimes has to be. But it's just easy if you can put people in choice straight away, here's our three main packages. We've got a super premium package if you want it, but here's the three core offerings. And then, talk them through it, and ask them questions, and find out where their issues lie. Is it copyright, and is it landing pages, is it funnels, is it ads, is it website? And then be like, oh, okay, so you've got two or three problems here, so you probably fought between this one and this one. This one will tackle all of these things, but this one also tackles this, this, and this, but you might not need this. Just give me a gauge, which camp you in. Oh, I think I'm a gold customer. Right, okay, well this is what gold costs and you've got two choices here, you can pay in full and pay this, or you can pay monthly, it costs you a little bit more, but you can split it up over the year. Which one would you like to choose? Oh, I'd like to choose this one. Okay, cool. Are we talking direct debit or credit card? I'd like to do this one. Okay, cool. When would you like to start? We can get you in for an onboarding call on Tuesday or the following Monday. Oh, Tuesday. Brilliant. You keep the momentum by giving them choice and making them feel like they're being guided towards the result, because that's what you are doing. But what most people do is they'll be like, we can't fit you in until next Tuesday, if you're coming onboard it's going to have to be gold because silver's not going to cut it for you, and I'm going to have to take a deposit right now, is that okay? No. No, that is not okay, you fucking maniac. And what's the right answer there, because I wouldn't be sure if no or yes was the right answer. Is that okay? Yeah, yes, no, no, what? I always think if someone asks you is that okay, they inherently know something's not okay. Yeah. Like if I said to Hannah, I want to go watch the football this weekend, is that okay? What I mean is, would you mind if I went and watched the football this weekend? That's a different framing. What if you'd like cooked dinner, would you say, is that okay? Yeah. I'd think someone poisoned me. Is that okay? What's in it? I've put in a lot of salt, is that okay? Yeah. So it's like you're asking for reassurance, when the last thing someone wants to need your help is to feel like they've got to reassure you. How long is your average status call now? About five minutes. Yeah, it used to be like an hour, yeah, discovery calls. What was the main shift? I'll open up with, tell me why we're having this conversation. Right, okay. And what problem is it you're looking to solve? Okay. And how's that been affecting you? Okay. And what do you know about us already? And what would you wish you knew more about? Okay. Given everything you've said, I think there's a couple of options here. Do you want me to walk you through those now? Or would you rather book another call in a few days and I can send you some information in the meantime? Oh, if you talk me through them now, that'd be great. Okay. Is there anything there I haven't covered? Is there anything that you're confused on? Is there anything you need to know to be able to let you make a decision? Okay. Well, it can go like this or it can go like this. If I'm honest with you, I cannot predict what lies ahead in the future. I've got a good idea because we've worked with hundreds of businesses. But the first three months is going to be all about testing and measuring and getting you off to a good start. Would you like to start in the next week? Or are you thinking next month? And done. Whereas before it would be, so tell me about your business. Yeah. How many children have you got? What's the biggest difficulty you're having right now? Right. Let's emphasize that pain. Let's dig a little bit deeper. If you had to make an investment today, how are you going to pay for it? It's not me. In fact, my natural way now is to just be like, we're obviously having this conversation for a reason. Talk me through how you think I can help. And I always know if someone says, well, I don't know how you can help. That's why I'm here. I always know they're not going to be a good customer. Yeah. You said that and one person sprang to mind. Yeah. Immediately. Yeah. And it gave me the heebie bejeebies. The heebie bejeebies? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how you can help. That's why I'm here. That's why you're the expert and I'm sat here. Fuck off. You should know because you should know what result you want. I'd like 10 more customers a month. Okay. Let's work back from there. Why do you want 10 more customers a month? I don't know what I want. You're the expert. Okay. Brilliant. Design, marketing, accounting, solicitor. As soon as someone says that, run a mile. Because what it means is they're indecisive or they've got mental blocks about something or they haven't achieved something in the past and they're scared of risk and they want you to take all responsibility for everything in their life. And that is not a fun place to be. So Marth, how do you pass this on? How do we get people into choice? Listen more than you speak. No. So I would go into a sales call now with or I do when I do take a sales call with the questions that I want to ask. Yeah. Already because it's not like you make it sound really easy, but it's not going to be that easy for everyone. It certainly isn't that easy for me. It isn't easy. I've practiced every day for four years. And I'm still not that good. And I'm still not the best at it. I think you need to emotionally detach yourself from the result, which is really hard. And believe me, when business has been tough for us, my sales performance has dropped to the floor because I'm so keen to get people over the line and people can smell it. And actually, when I'm like, how can I help you? What else do you need? Okay. Why is this happening? Who else have you worked with on this before? What didn't work there? What worked really well? I can give you all the information you need. I'm not sure we're quite the right fit at the moment. Normally, they start then selling themselves to you. A great one I love is what has to happen for this to be the best decision that you've ever made. Like for me as an account manager, it's like, then I know where I'm shooting for. Yeah. What would represent a world-class result? And they're like, oh, no one's ever asked me that. Well, you need to be clear on that before we get started because if you're measuring that's based on a notion of nothing. Yeah. That's a real problem. Cool. What do people need to do if they want to learn more about this? Visit Cobrake.co.uk Yeah.