Mindset - Rewiring Your Life with Imthiaz Ghulam

In this powerful episode, we sit down with Imthiaz Ghulam, an entrepreneur who has truly walked through fire and come out the other side. He introduces himself as someone who has made every mistake imaginable and failed at nearly everything he's tried. This isn't a story of defeat, but one of incredible resilience and the profound mindset shifts required to rebuild and succeed on your own terms.

We dive deep into the nature of failure and why embracing it is the only true path to success. The conversation explores the difference between tangible achievements the world can see, like business and physique, and the continuous, often more difficult, work of improving our personal lives.

From being convicted of drug offences and spending time in prison, to a complete transformation, finding purpose and helping people better themselves. It's a raw and honest look at what it truly means to turn your life around, one decision at a time.

In this episode, you will learn:
🔥 Why leading with your failures can be a source of strength.
🧭 How to navigate the feeling that you don't fit into the "system."
🌱 The difference between tangible success and personal growth.
🚀 That failure isn't just a part of the journey - it IS the journey.

Listen now to start rewiring your life!

Links:

Website: https://www.codebreak.co.uk
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codebreakcrew/
Facebook: https://facebook.com/codebreakcrew/

Joel's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joelstoneofficial/
Joel's Facebook: https://facebook.com/joelstoneofficial/

Free Marketing Budget Calculator: https://codebreak.outgrow.us/knowyournumbers

Arrange a call with Codebreak: https://form.jotform.com/241272835208051

Transcript

0:13

Empty, welcome to the Stay Hungry Podcast. Nice to be here, mate. Oh, I knew that. Nice. So, I guess this is gonna be an interesting one. We're gonna talk about rewiring your life, which is a bold statement. But just to start with, who are you? Who am I now? Who are you? Who is Empty? I'm somebody who made every single mistake you could think of under the sun. Failed at pretty much everything he's ever tried and then managed to come back and succeed. Interesting. I'm gonna pick on something you've said already, because there's no one that's succeeded that hasn't failed at those things first. So what makes you say, what makes you lead with I've failed at everything I've tried? It feels to me, I've known you a short time, that you've succeeded at everything you've tried. Not everything, not everything. I'm in the process of succeeding in certain, for example, my personal life. I've not been the best son over the years. I've not been the best brother over the years, that sort of thing. So those are things that you're gonna have to work on continuously. Yeah, yeah. But I've definitely failed. Yeah, yeah. I've definitely failed. So that's why I said, that's why I led with failure. Yeah, yeah. There's certain areas that you can, that are tangible things that you can see, business-wise, actually turning your life around, your physique, so on and so forth. Cool. But there are things that people probably don't know about in terms of what I feel about. See, because I'm like a big believer that failure is the path to success. Yes, a million percent. But most people avoid failure, so they never have the success. Yeah. Talk me through some of your failures then. How's this story come about? So, failed at school. Yeah. I was, academically, I was pretty gifted. Yeah. I did well up until a certain point when I thought, I don't believe in this. I can't get behind it. I don't believe in the system. I don't believe how somebody can live a life that they truly want within this system. So I failed at that. So rebellious, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Telling teachers that they haven't got a clue what they're doing. Being outspoken, questioning what I was being taught, being punished for that. Always questioning the status quo. Playing devil's advocate. And that isn't rewarded within the school system or any system, as a matter of fact. So I failed there. I failed as a drug dealer before I succeeded as a drug dealer and then I failed again. Okay. Went to prison. And didn't speak to my old man for five years because of the differences. Failed there as a son. Like I said, always in trouble as a, well, up until I went to prison, so up until the age of 26. I think I've got 13 charges in my name, nine convictions. So yeah, I think I fucked up my fair share. And those failures, because some of those are significant, you know, there'll be people listening to this that won't have any experience of that kind of thing. What were you striving for to cause those failures? On the surface of it, it was financial gain. We grew up in a area where we weren't affluent. It was a poor area. Majority Asian, Muslim sort of area. On the outskirts of city centre. So it was always a case of, we'd see things, you know, we grew up on essentially what was a state. We'd see things on the TV, on music videos, and we're like, we want a piece of that. And the only way for me that I could see that I was gonna be able to achieve that and get that sort of lifestyle and that level of success and that level of accolade was doing the fairest thing, you know, getting involved with the wrong sort of stuff. Yeah. So that was, I couldn't put the two dots together in terms of legit work, work as we know it, and living that sort of lifestyle. That made sense to me early on. What I did know was that business was the way forward. However, I didn't know what business to get into. And the only business that I could see in front of me was the one on the streets. So that's what I put my hand to. And what went wrong? That sounds like a bizarre question. At one point, towards the end. So in the beginning, I can remember I started selling, like most kids do get into that, I started selling a bit of weed. I was about 15. Yeah. Started selling a bit of weed, sold a bit of money, fucked up, owed some dangerous people some significant amount of money at the time. It was when I was like 17, 18. Learned my lesson, then I started dabbling in Class A's, cocaine, started to build up, build up, build up, kind of climbed the ladder as it were. And then I was doing well, I was doing, I was comfy, man. So I think like some of our listeners and certainly people I've had conversations with, so I grew up on a council house terrace. I'm from the block as such. Yeah, yeah. And I talked to people, I'm like, well, drugs were just there. It's not like, they're like, they act like it's something that's only at parties or something. I'm like, I could knock next door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it wasn't. And so the people around me, I would say, when I was growing up who had stuff was because of that. Yeah. And adults too, not just teenagers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I could see that that was perhaps a fast track to nice things. I wouldn't say those people look particularly fulfilled. They probably, a lot of those people. For me, it seemed like they were. It seemed like they were loving life. And when you haven't got something and the next person has, that's all you focus on. It's only when I started to get into it and I realized that the guys I was looking up to, I eventually started to work with at some point. Their heads are fucked. Their life's a mess, you know? There's a lot of looking over your shoulder. Yeah, yeah. Even in terms of relationships, you know, they're always afraid. You're always falling out with one party and then making friends with another one. And it's all, it was too chaotic in the end. Yeah. It was way too chaotic, but that's what comes along with that sort of lifestyle. That's what I wasn't banking on. But once I was in it, I was in it. Yeah. So you're in it, you're successful in that space. How did the law catch up with you? So we got, we got complacent really. I was 26. I was changing car every month. I had, you know, 30, 40 grand rolled up someone's wrist. That's like, I thought, I fucking made it here. Yeah. You know? You're also like a walking billboard for someone. But, you know, I know you're heavy on marketing, but that was my marketing. That was my marketing. I understood the game. I'd go into a rave with a chain on and a watch on, young lad, designer gear. I need people to look at me and think, I want a piece of what he's got. That's marketing. That's marketing. That's personal brand. Yeah. So I relied on that heavily. You know, I needed people to pay attention. And yes, you are. poking billboard that everyone's watching. In regards to how things caught up with me in the end, somebody owed some money and he got a bit of a kick in. He had his car taken off him. He's then gone and told someone. They've told the police. We then were under surveillance and before you know it. Yeah, so. The doors come off and we're in a bandwagon. Just a thread got pulled. Yeah, yeah, basically. That's really it. So what does that look like? So for like people listening here, I've actually had lots of encounters with the police as well. Yeah. Not for stuff I've done, but my dad spent a lot of time in prison. Not many people know what it's like when the police come knocking. What's that like? So we've got caught bang to rights. We're in this gaff now. Some food's got dropped off. There's two kilos of coke on the table right in front of me. I'm sending a message to one of your mates and the doors come clean off. I'm thinking I'm getting robbed. I'm thinking I'm getting robbed. But I was like backed up against the wall. Nowhere to go. There's a couple of other people in the house with me. There's one more person in the house with me. The other guy was stopped outside. I thought, what the fuck? I just froze. I was like, are we being robbed? Who the fuck is it? As soon as like I saw the truncheons and the rest of the gear, I was like, yeah, we're fucked here. We're proper fucked. Yeah. So no resistance, just like. Where was I gonna go? It's interesting because I think like TV, for example, paints a picture of like everyone fights, but the footage they're only ever gonna show is dramatic. But I know pretty much every time the doors come off at my house or next door or whatever I've witnessed, it's not as dramatic as it. They catch you off guard. Yeah, yeah. It's their job to catch you off guard. Like our next door got raided when I was growing up and 5 a.m. Yeah. Because that's when they're in bed. Yeah. So. You don't have a chance. I mean, I've had my door taken off numerous amount of times and you don't get a chance. Yeah. You don't get a chance. Whatever contingency plan you got at the time goes out the fucking window. Yeah, you need hell of a compound. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so roll forward from there. Obviously court didn't go too well for you. No. Did you plead guilty? Yeah, so I got remanded straight away. Okay. So, got nicked on the Friday. I was in prison by Monday. You just said like, yeah, I've done it. Not there and then. I pleaded guilty on my first hearing in court. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. We banged it right. It was right there, wasn't it? And what did the sentence look like? So they started me on a nine and a half, knocked 25% off for the guilty plea, which left me with seven year, one month. Yeah. Served half of that in custody, served half of that in the community. And it's only just finished. Yeah, in April. What does that feel like? I've been on three fucking holidays. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. It feels good. It feels, I've always been the most scared. Like for example, when I left prison, those few days before I actually left, were the scariest of my life. Mm-hmm. I actually remember crying. Yeah. Because I was going into the unfamiliar. It was a world I didn't know. I made this intention of, I'm changed now. I'm gonna do positive things instead of doing negative things. Yeah. But then I was like, who the fuck do you think you are, bro? Who the fuck's gonna wanna work with a convicted drug dealer? Who the fuck do you think you're kidding? And it was just, for those few nights before I got out of prison, it was this internal battle of the old self and the new self, the ego and the alter ego, going to war every single night. That was the scariest part. Yeah. Which I think most people will relate to. Yeah. So, sort of going all over the place here, you got remanded in custody. What prison was that? That was in Dovegate. And what was that like? So, on remand, you get let out in the morning on the yard, 30 minutes, let out for lunch, let out for dinner. And on the weekends, you've got probably half the day where you're out. But you're padded up. Yeah. And you're on an induction wing where- There's all sorts because it's people waiting for- Yeah, it's people who've just landed in the jail. So, that's the sort of vibe. Wasn't too bad, to be honest with you. For me, it was, there was an adaptation period that took place over probably two weeks. And it was the same every time I moved to South. It took me two weeks to adapt to any sort of climate. But I realised, like, this isn't road anymore. You aren't out anymore. Yeah. Because at the beginning, I was still going on like I was fucking normal, having normal conversations, not understanding where the fuck I was. Yeah. And then that kind of dawned on me. I was like, okay, this is home for a while, bro. So, you need to- Settle in. Settle the fuck in. And then, when you got sentenced, where did you get sent then? So, got sentenced, put on the meat wagon, went back to Dovegate. I think within five or 10 days, we were in HMP Oakwood. Okay. Which is, I don't know if there's mega jails in the UK, but it's- It's a serious one. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's 2,000 people in that prison. Yeah, yeah. And with that kind of sentence, you're put in with some pretty serious- Yeah, so, luckily, depending on the length of time that you might be serving, they put you in different categories. So, for example, if you're coming in on a murder charge, you're getting put in an ACAT, or on the dispersal unit, which is where you hop from prison to prison, you know, for a certain amount of time. Yeah. So, you can't really settle. Then you've got BCATs, which are typically remand jails, which are a step down. You're getting all the people who are being remanded in there, but then you also get the people who are just coming from the ACATs. I landed in a CCAT. So, after I got sentenced, because it was under 10 years, I landed in a CCAT, which is kind of the step before you get, you know, day release and that sort of stuff. So, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a mad prison where everyone's on violence. Yeah. But, of course, there's prison, there is violence, you know? So, yeah, I kind of got lucky in terms of the sentence that I got, that the prison that I landed in was ideal and primed for rehabilitation, if you made use of it. Yes. I was lucky in that sense, because if I went to another prison that wasn't Oakwood, I couldn't say that I'd be how I am today. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, I've visited a few, and some better than others, definitely. Yeah. So, what, where does the point come where life as you know it, you've decided can't stay the same? Yeah. And you've just mentioned rehabilitation. Some people never rehabilitate. Where did you go, something's got to change here? It was on basic. I got put on basic regime when I got to Oakwood pretty much straight away. And I stayed on basic regime for about two months. Did you do something wrong to get put on basic? Yeah, so the first instance was... I wanted a single pad. I was with my co-defendant. He moved cell. He moved to a different wing because on that wing, you get extra visits because you've got kids and so on and so forth. Obviously, I didn't have kids at the time. He did. So understandable, but I don't want to pad it with anyone else. I don't want to be smelling next man's farts. Yeah, man. Fuck that. So I've gone to, I was on a course. I was on the level two gym instructor course, actually. I was on that course. I've come back from work and there's somebody in my pad. Now this guy had been in prison for like eight or nine years. So you can imagine the amount of stuff he's got and the pads are small and awkward. So I've kicked off. I've kicked off. They moved me on to the basic wing. Whilst I'm on there, they gave me my single pad. I was happy. I had no TV, no radio. Fuck all. Happy as Larry. Yeah, I couldn't give a fuck. Come off basic after 28 days because I was on the basic wing. There was weed available. That's how people are passing the time. Yeah. I just split for two as you do. Got drug tested. Got put back on basic. I thought to myself, I cannot do my sentence like this. Yeah. MT, you've got fucking, you've got another three years, bro. Is this how you want to be living? Really? So at that point I thought, nah, something's got to change. In terms of actually changing my viewpoint on how I was going to operate once I got outside. That happened after a conversation with an importer. Martin, older guy in his fifties. Got put in for importation 24 years ago. I was just finishing off that stretch. And he's just talking to me because he's got life experience. Oh boy, he used to look after me. I used to go into his pad. He used to have a box with old boxing matches on there. I used to watch that. And just chatting to him. And I realized that it's a revolving door. And I think the stats is like 60% of people re-offend within the first year. And for me at the time, I was like, I'm 26. They've taken the best fucking years of my life. You know? I was pissed off. And I was like, nah, you can't do this again. Fuck that. Which is wild because from the people I know, so many of them re-offend. Not because crime is what they know, but because of the stability prison brought them. They're actually hungry to get back in. I understand that. I understand that. Because there were smack heads who'd come in off the streets and fix up. To get clean, yeah. Get in jail. Why? Because they've got their community. They've got stability. They've got a routine. They've got a bit of a purpose. Yeah, yeah. And even in the city I'm in now, I was going past, I was driving through Stoke, Stoke, which is, Stoke is made up of six towns. One of the towns is Stoke. And I seen this guy I was locked up with, getting arrested. He's a smack head. But in prison, he was amazing at badminton. He was absolutely amazing. Yeah. No one could beat him. And in prison, he was a somebody. Out here, he's a nobody. Yeah. And you don't realise, a lot of these people, their life's so chaotic outside of prison. Their family are a bad influence. Their friends are a bad influence. They've got nothing. Like, they feel unemployable for whatever reason. And the stability that provides is actually epic for a lot of people. It did for me as well. It did for me. Because without that stability, I wouldn't have been able to do what I've done. I wouldn't have been able to put myself in a position where I'd educate myself. Yeah. That would've never happened if I was outside. I would've never picked up books. I would've never looked into anything. So what changed? My viewpoint on what success looked like. Because all those things, those thoughts, in regards to where I failed before, my personal life, who I'd let down, they come to the forefront of your mind when you're sat in a prison cell on your own. You really regret some of the shit that you've done. The way that you let people down. The way that you spoke to people. The way that you made people feel. The violence that you put into the world. You sit on that and you ponder that. And then the question I used to ask myself is, is the world a better place because I'm in it or a worse place? And the answer was, it's a worse place for me being here. That's what made me think, you can't really go through life just giving a shit about yourself. You can't. Life, just giving a shit about yourself and not being able to help anyone. Not being able to impact anyone positively. Where did that come from? Because not everyone has that. I believe that come from regret more than anything. Because I did some bad shit. I did some bad shit to people that were close to me. And then when you sit back and you actually feel that guilt, that regret. And it's there, night after night. I don't want to feel that again. So what were the sort of key things that you had to confront in yourself? To know that you were going to make changes? My thought process in regards to, I had to realise how much of a piece of shit I was. Interesting. I had to call myself out on that. Like you think you're sick empty. You think you got money or jewellery or clothes or cars or whatever. You're actually a piece of shit. If you list the stuff that you've done in your life that's positive compared to the things that are negative. You're a piece of shit. Okay, cool. How can we change that? And that's where it started. Yeah. That's where it started. And what was the first change you wanted to make? My connection with God. Interesting. Had you had a connection with God prior? I've grown up in a Muslim family, okay? And when we were younger, we'd go to the mosque, so on and so forth, but then life happens, okay? Typically what happens to a lot of guys who are Muslim, who are Asian. Got involved in fuckery and lost that connection with God. And that was, for me, the further you move away from God, the more open you are to making poor decisions. And when I said to you before about being a piece of shit, if I had been aware of God in those scenarios, I probably wouldn't have made the decision that I made. I don't know how someone knows they're a piece of shit. of shit without knowing what good looks like yeah yeah so that was the first thing that i kind of rectified and then everything else kind of fell into place because even islam obviously i'm muslim islam is the religion of personal development i know it gets a bad rap in the press press for one reason or another um but if you really look at it is the religion of personal development of self-improvement i think there's a lot of confusion in the press between cultural references to various cultures around the world yeah and what's actually religion yeah and it gets blended into a melting pot of a bit of a mess yeah when actually pull back and look at the text and the religion yeah it's a it's as is christianity to an extent it's about self-development and being a good person yeah yeah and and that happens within religions itself so for example i come from an asian background um even like our elders they would mix culture with religion uh which isn't we shouldn't be done yeah but but these are things these are things that happen but going back to the text a lot of people that have these preconceptions about islam or any other religion go and look at the text go and look what they actually teach not what you're seeing on your social media feed yeah what you're seeing on the on the news and i think i think like society has to accept that of course there is bad bad eggs in religion yeah that doesn't mean the religion is bad yeah you might not agree with the religion but i find that a really like i'm very naive to pretty much all religion but i've met lots of religious people and it wasn't the religion that made them do bad things yeah it was their them going against the religion yeah they're following their own desires yeah yeah and it's the same throughout my life any any point where i've completely fucked up my life which has been numerous times by the way yeah it's been exactly that me contradicting what my religion teaches me so what did reconnecting with god look like it it allowed me to humble myself okay i put my ego to the side almost killed my ego um well the ego i had previously so something i fucking hate at the moment that a lot of ceo guru types say and i think it's really dangerous is main character energy yeah because you're not i think there's such an ego-led statement yeah i'm like you're not the main if like if you're a coach in your case you're not the main character you're the guide yeah and and if you're religious you're not the main character because god is yeah so yeah it's i think that's a status thing and i think status is you can't call yourself something and assume that status status is given to you by everybody else so you can be the main character only if everyone else decides you're the main character yeah and that's rare very rare most people are their own main character yeah and the only way you can actually become that character is by having a positive effect on the group the consensus their life so the status actually comes as the main character from the prestige that you bring to other people's lives it's a by-product as a by-product yeah that's the only way to achieve it and i think that's how money flows as well yeah money is there's energy in it so it's the same with um you know if you even if you look at religious leaders um or leaders in general in the past the empires that did the best it was done in that manner they bought value and a reward to other people's lives which allowed them to prosper for as long as possible because i could be domineering as fuck and be like i have the status of i'm a leader gives you fucking lunch money if you look at nature those sorts of alpha males they get killed they don't last very long yeah interested so i've just been to borneo yeah and uh was under british rule got invaded by the japanese um and then when the japanese left the british came back yeah and i was chatting to people quite carefully because i was kind of like i don't really want to live by the reputation of 200 years ago yeah yeah and they oh we were so glad when the british came back because they led through building infrastructure and making this a nicer place and the japanese were here they were marching us through the jungle and killing us yeah and i was like i never thought of it like that now i'm not saying british empirical rule wasn't fucking horrendous of course it was but just that perspective of like there's a there's a there's different ways to lead yeah for sure and that that's the better way that's the better way um you can't be domineering you can't be domineering of course it's not gonna go in your favor um but in regards to um you know being the main character that's done through proxy that's done through other people deciding it's not your choice it's not your fucking choice you can't say i'm a high value male the market the marketplace decides you're a high value male so what happens when you start to reconnect with god to the rest of your mindset everything because because islam is a religion of personal development it teaches you to look after your body it teaches you to educate it teaches you to have wealth you know um it teaches you to strive in every area of your life as long as it doesn't contradict your relationship with god so things kind of fell into place like in terms of praying five times a day it gives you structure to your day you plan your meals around that you know um staying away from all the vices that you've got in prison at the time you know you've got drugs you've got uh whatever essentially whatever you want staying away from that so it gives you a playbook on how to live your life and how to suffer less essentially and people think it's all the way around you know you're not permitted to do x y z you're not permitted to drink you're not permitted to have sex before marriage you're not so on and so forth we've seen how that plays out in society you know and you can't really argue with the data if you uh let's look at let's look at alcohol for example it's um you're not allowed to drink in islam what god does alcohol do for society i'll wait oh well you'd like preaching to the converted here i do drink but i uh i don't drink very often yeah and my feelings on it are i think anything in moderation can can have its benefits but i would say alcohol in particular the negatives far outweigh the benefits so there's no there's no real benefit as such the maths don't stack yeah And I often find, because alcohol is synthetic essentially, there's a lot, it's a processed food. You're creating a situation where you're poisoning yourself to be able to cope with the situation you're in. It's mad, isn't it? It's absolutely absurd. And I was at a party on Friday, it was a business event, and some of the people on my table were drinking somewhere. And it was one of those where, it was my table, so I wasn't gonna drink so much so I made a fool of myself. And then I find the people that did drink a lot were annoying. They were having a great time because they didn't know. But I was like, I wonder if nobody had drank at this event if we'd have all had a better time. What do you state as a better time? Well, it depends. Enjoyed each other's company, had deeper conversations. Actually connected with someone. Yeah. And I don't trust people who drink. Like in terms of, if you're drinking around me, there's something that makes me wary of you. I don't know, probably from my own antics when I was younger. Yeah, yeah. Where I'm erratic. I'm like, I'll sit with my back to the wall. Yeah, and I guess like, we know some characters. Like, you know, in the business space, you're gonna meet characters. And a lot of business people are all or nothing. So they know that if they drink, it's the gateway to other bad behavior. I'm the same. I'm the same. It'll just open up everything else because that inhibition's gone, that self-awareness is out the fucking window. So in your case, is that then severing your connection with God? What's that? If you were to get drunk. Yeah. Your ability to tune into your center. Yeah, because you're no longer self-aware. Yeah, that's really interesting. You're no longer self-aware. In order for you to be aware of God, and God aware, you gotta be self-aware. Yeah. And any sort of intoxication takes away from that. And if you look at it from a neurological standpoint, what takes over is the animal brain that takes over when you're drunk. And we know in terms of the logical part of your brain, the part of the brain which is responsible for self-awareness, that's switched off. And in order for you to connect with a higher being or another energy, whatever your faith is, whatever you believe in, you've gotta be operating from the logical brain. Yeah, it's really, I mean, people have heard on this podcast, and you've heard the story, but I've never really been a drug taker. I have drank, but never to excess. And then I made a cock up last year and accidentally took 100 milligrams of THC. I've seen the picture. Yeah. The picture, that picture. It was a video. Yeah, that's. And it was a positive thing for me because I'll never do that again. Okay. I learned such a lesson, like I was gone. Yeah. I thought I wasn't coming back. And the people with me thought I wasn't coming back. They thought I'd turned myself into a vegetable. And the insight that gave me into who I wanna be as a person. Yeah. Versus just literally, I wanted to take five milligrams of THC to get a good night's sleep the night before, I accidentally took 100 milligrams. And in a place where it's legal, but nearly ruined myself. Yeah. And there's people doing that every day of the week. Yeah. What are they escaping from? That's the question. Why are people? Well, jet lag in my case. So not to be bad. No, obviously you want to get sleep, don't you? But these people who are doing drugs, say they're drinking more than what they would like. Why are they involving themselves in these sorts of behaviours? What they're trying to escape from? What's really going on below the surface? Because I think if you really, I don't wanna use the word happy, with happiness is fleeting, but if you're. Oh, can we touch on that? Yeah, we can touch on that. That's really interesting what you just said. And I don't wanna pass it by. Yeah. You wanna dig into that now? I'm not digging you out. I was gonna say, do you wanna dig into that now? Yeah. Yeah. So like, let's roll forward. You're now a coach. Yeah. And you're coaching some high flying men. Yeah. Basically, I had to be better. Yeah. And you've just said happiness is fleeting. Yeah. And I talk about that a lot on this podcast and a lot of people call me out on it. So I think being content should be the goal. Yeah. And that happiness is just the opposite of sadness. And if you're content, happiness and sadness don't have the same effect on you anyway. They don't. They don't. Content as well, I think, can be dangerous as well because that can lead to complacency. Yeah, I don't mean comfortable. Yeah. And I know that it's like semantics. Yeah. But content means that you can, in my mind, you can be content and very uncomfortable. Yeah. But you're still happy with your lot. Yeah. Comfortable, I think, is the road to nowhere. Yeah. And I lose purpose when I'm comfortable and get into all sorts of dark places. Yeah. So talk about this, happiness is a fleeting thing. So everyone's chasing that. Yeah, because any emotion that you're feeling comes and goes, whether you're sad, whether you're happy, whether you're angry, okay? So we can accept that it's impossible for us to be a permanent state. Yeah. Okay, cool. So why the fuck is everyone vying to be happy all the time when you know every single emotion that you feel is not, doesn't work like that. How shit would it be if you were happy all the time? It'd be awful. You wouldn't know what it was anymore. Yeah, it'd be awful. It'd be absolutely awful. Being content is one. Being useful. Yeah. Aim to be useful. Yeah, feeling like you have purpose. Yeah, that's the main thing because I think when you give a man purpose and he feels he belongs somewhere, he will do the hard things. He will do the hard things. He will, you know, do what is required instead of what makes him feel good. So given what you're now setting up and growing, what's your purpose? My purpose is to create a society where men are capable, useful for themselves and their families. So society can benefit as a whole because the deterioration of society in the West, I'm going deep here, has been, is paired with the deterioration of men and their capability. So men have become softer over time, we know this. They are lazier than they have ever been. They are making excuses more than they have ever done. And they're not stepping up, okay? They're not being what they should be. And that's led to, in regards to like relationships breaking down, women having to step up and become more masculine, children then suffering, then it leads to things like crime rates, so on and so forth. Yeah. So what's really happened, and people are gonna, you know, have conspiracy theories or whatever, you know, men have been made soft. on purpose by the governments and media and so on and so forth. Okay, cool, but at the end of the day, they still had a fucking choice. So there's a lot to unpack there, a lot. I feel like a lot of people have strived for comfort and comfort creates softness. Yeah. And I think someone like yourself, maybe me, I strive for purpose, which is a bit different. Purpose sharpens the blade, comfort dulls the blade. Yeah. What in particular do you think, because you made that differentiation between men and women, what do you think's going on? I mean, it depends how far back you wanna go. So if you look at it in terms of what's happened in the UK, when women came into, with a lot of work and that sort of thing, after the Second World War, they kind of rebuilt the country, so on and so forth, the government found another taxable population. Yes. Great, fantastic. We've got a shitload more money to spend on whatever our agenda is. Cool. They then made it difficult for you to live on a single salary. Yeah. Okay? Yeah, so only two generations ago, most households, there's only one breadwinner. Yeah. Okay. So what went from, so what started off as a luxury where both people could go work, it then became a compulsion. Both people in the relationship had to go and work. And what happened over time is women figured out, we don't need men anymore to support us, we can support ourselves financially. Cool. Then there was a subset of men that left thinking, where the fuck do I fit in here? Purpose, gone. Yeah. Then in terms of mental health, drug use, drink, so on and so forth, that increase was led to everything else. Now, we can't go and change what governments are going to do. We can't go change that, okay? But what we can do is change the way that we operate as men and making sure that we aren't looking for the easy way out or looking for the excuse and making ourselves useful again and become capable again, okay? And that doesn't mean being financially successful. That doesn't mean being physically fit. That doesn't mean these things, you know? And striving for that, because over time what's happened, and you look at kids that end up in care and the crime rates and stuff like that, it all, I believe, stems from that. It's the disparity between roles in terms of men and women in this day and age. The lines are blurred. Yeah. Women are more masculine than ever and men are more feminine than ever. Do you think that's a misogynistic statement? Why would that be misogynistic? I'm asking. No. Okay. I don't think, I think women have the single most important role in society and that is to bring up children, bring them up well, you know? So, me and my wife aren't going to have kids. She's an incredibly independent woman. She's very feminine. Yeah. You know, I totally appreciate that's a subjective phrase. There's loads of different versions of femininity, one being the most feminine thing is to have a child. I totally, but we don't have a traditional relationship in that sense. We're not going to have kids. She's very motherly. Yeah. Loving woman to our niece and nephew. Amazing for our dog. I know that sounds ridiculous, but she is. She literally, part of her profession is teaching kids about nature and wildlife and stuff, but we don't fit that template that you just painted. Disgust. And your point is? My point is that we could be, in your view, we could be contributing to broken society. Possibly. What's led you guys to make that decision? Lots. So my wife was born with an inherited issue. She was born with club feet. She's normally passed down the male lineage, but she was born with, so she's had over 17 operations. Her legs reconstructed three times. There's a hereditary history of severe mental illness on my side of the family. So my dad has bipolar. I've had suicidal tendencies, and we both felt that we could help an awful lot of people in other ways without having kids. Okay, interesting. So with you guys, it was a choice made from what you think could happen. Yeah, not fear, I would say. And there is an element, I'll be honest, there's an element of selfishness too. We both have a lot of fear. And there is an element, I'll be honest, there's an element of selfishness too. We both love exploring the world, and we're both fiercely ambitious in our individual careers. And children probably don't fit that picture. Yeah. So that's interesting, because the whole, the premise that I'm kind of, the line that I'm going down is that the whole purpose of society and human as a species is to reproduce and to improve and to get better. And you're okay with not contributing to that. Yeah. That's what we're saying, and that's fine. That's your choice. And my, and I guess, well, there is an element of fear. My concern is that if I did contribute to that, I might add someone to the pool that causes more trouble than good. Does that say more about you? It could do. Yeah, because that isn't. I mean, I've worked very, very hard on my mental health. Yeah. And I have not had the problems my dad's had. Yeah. It's not, that isn't a fact. That's something that's in your own mind. Let me put it this way. I've got a friend called Abid, he's in a wheelchair. Yeah. He's had muscular dystrophy or atrophy, one of the two, for the last 35 years. Started off as a normal kid walking around, end up in a wheelchair, now he can't even feed himself, okay? Yeah. He had a daughter, she's like 12, 13 months old. She's got a condition, okay? Cool. Now, with that scenario, he knew the- Risk. Risk involved. He knew that beforehand, but he still understood that as a man, his daughter would be a contribution to society. Yeah. You know? In regards to your choices, like you said, admittedly it was selfish, and that's fine, but going back to what I said in regards to, we're here to contribute to society, and the best way of contribution we can make is the offspring that we leave behind, you've consciously opted out of that. Yeah, yeah. So your impact and the change that you want to see in the world is going to be blunted. is limited. Limited yeah yeah yeah and only through what you achieve through your business or try to work so on and so forth. Yeah yeah I mean I'm doubling down in other ways for sure but um yeah no I wanted to explore that because I. Here's a question for you, how are you going to feel when you're old and grey and you know that's the end of your lineage? Yeah. I don't have like legacy ego. Yeah. Um I'd love for like my niece and nephew to be financially okay but again I wouldn't want to give them a chunk of money. Yeah. I kind of want them to learn the value of money and um I'd love for like everyone that works for me to be financially okay. Yeah. Um I've got no desire to further the family name. I don't even have my real surname now. Yeah. My real granddad his surname was Tom. Imagine if everyone thought like you. Yeah. That's that's the dangerous thing and I think over time. Well that's only dangerous if you believe that the continuation of the human race is vitally important which is a very deep subject. I do believe it is. I do believe it is because without the human race um like I said it's going back to God. Yeah. That's the purpose for for us the purpose of our life is to worship God. Yep. You know and we can that can be done through various means. It isn't just literally praying. It could be the offering. Delivering his message. Yes. Behaving in a certain way. So on and so forth but I just think that's that strips away the purpose of life. It strips away the purpose of being alive. Which I think so that that brings a lot of identity for you that I don't have. Yeah. So well Joel one thing I do notice about you though whenever I've spoken the group I've dropped something in about it triggers something in you. You're intrigued. Yeah. You're very much intrigued and for me I I stick my neck out and say that you are looking for something. Don't know what it is. I refuse to be closed-minded. Yeah. For someone who is atheist. Yeah. I refuse to be closed. I find society I think now has a real issue with disagreeing with each other. Yeah. And I think disagreements are really healthy. Yeah. And I also think conversation and debate is really healthy. I can comfortably sit in the room with someone who values and beliefs don't align with mine and have a much better conversation than I could with someone who agrees with everything I say. Yeah. And I think that's a lost art in society. I think it's something that was really important that we're losing and I and I and I know as an atheist that my life lacks purpose in the spiritual sense. Yeah. Purpose. So I'm always looking for purpose. And like you know impact. Yeah. Because I want to positively impact people and I want to be a good person and I don't know where that comes from. Yeah. So that's that's innately in humans. Yeah. That is innately in us to do good and that can only come from well I'll let you make your mind up on that. Yeah. It's that's that's I knew we would meet that point in this conversation. Yeah. I'll let you make make your mind up on that. For me there's only one there is only one feasible answer and knowing what I know and it's it's God given that is God given you know and I think for me there is no other viable explanation because I've been down the spiritual route I've been down you know looking at um things from a scientific standpoint and they all lead to one thing that there is a greater being a higher power how obviously I'm born into a Muslim background but even then there has to be something that's in control there has to be something that's designed the universe human beings and everything as we know it there has to be the thing I find hard particularly when I've been like low or depressed is if you if you're completely scientific about everything which I usually am a very logical person um there is no meaning to anything yeah and when you're in a bad space that is not a good a good area of your mind what is more important the how or the why so I'm a why guy yeah so the science explains how yeah faith explains why yeah and I think the why is always more important than the how yeah so that I think was probably 15 minutes or so of my favorite part of any podcast I've ever recorded seriously and just for the listeners benefit what do you do now because like I I probably came into this conversation with you thinking we might butt heads on a few things and I I knew you'd be fine with that but I wanted people to to hear where you've come from here you stand up to me because I'm quite a forthright guy myself and also then tell people what you do now okay so what I do now is I work with business owners on mindset on how they're operating within their business because a lot of the time they're leaving fulfillment on the table they're leaving money on the table leaving time on the table purely because they're not operating and doing what they're meant to be doing and that is not just in the business that is with the family that is within themselves in terms of fitness so on and so forth so making sure that they're optimized to one have a fulfilled life and have that purpose but then also have the money and be able to buy the experiences for themselves and their loved ones and to create a real impact yeah what what is the reason someone would want to like you said experiences so I'm into that I was trying to say like why would you want to buy stuff for your loved ones but I do yeah like you always get more from giving yeah yeah than getting it for yourself yeah always always that's one thing like I had a conversation with this guy I stayed in Dubai with multi-millionaire does not give a fuck about anything materialistic but he does you're good on deployments to war-stricken countries all the time and I had him on my podcast I did a short episode in Dubai he was like you need to go I was like why he goes you get so much from it even on a selfish standpoint so that's why I kind of have a option to go on a deployment to Palestine in December yeah there's no unselfish act ever no no because I think also what that does is it lowers your floor we talk about elevating the ceiling it lowers your floor yeah because once you've seen that you're going to come back from a completely different person that's why I love travel yeah I don't travel I don't go like on an all-inclusive to Lanzarote that's not me yeah I go to like far-flung parts of the world and yeah I see some lovely things but I also see sort of like you know we always make a charitable donation and go and do a day of volunteering or whatever because I think it gives me perspective. So talk me through that, what are you doing? So obviously we know the state of affairs in the Middle East. I couldn't live my life knowing that I was alive during this time and I did fuck all. How did you get there when literally seven years ago you were just living for you? It was that same question, is the world a better place because you were here? And I want that answer to be yeah. So what does this look like then? Do you fly out to Jordan? So we go fly out to Jordan, we land in Jordan on the 22nd or the 23rd, we cross the border into Palestine. Is that dangerous? Yeah so sometimes, I'll speak to the woman, she's saying sometimes they don't let you in, so you can't refer, check this for a mad one bro, you can't refer to Palestine as Palestine. Because of the Israelis? So she made that mistake, like where are you going? She mentioned Palestine, what Palestine? What are you on about? So you've got to say Gaza? No, yeah Gaza's a place, Palestine they don't recognise it as a... Yeah I know that's what you mean. You've got to say that you're going on a tour of the mosque there? So Israel controls the border? Yeah. Okay. What were you going to say? I just find it heartless, I find it really sad. I mean it's a disputed land, it's been a disputed land for 2,000 years. I just think there's a human element there, where here's a guy stood at the border with a box of aid, or a lady stood at the border with a box of aid saying, I want to go see these refugees and feed them because they're fucking starving and dying. And you're questioning the wording I've used at the border, that's pathetic. That's what we've got to in the world right now. So we're going to go over there, we're going to hand out aid hopefully. If we don't get let into there, there's camps in Jordan with Palestinian refugees, we'll be doing work there. So just packaging up aid, handing out aid, making what difference we can. At least I've done something. Yeah. At least I've done something, at least I can At least I've done something, at least I can say I tried. Because this will be remembered in history. This will be, how people talk about the holocaust, how people talk about these other genocides that have happened. There were people who were complicit at the time. Yeah. Who didn't do nothing, and you complicit through, you know. Inactivity. Inactivity, yeah. I don't want to fall into that category. I do not want to fall into that category. Yeah. It's a scary context. I think a lot of people are happy to turn a blind eye to. Yeah. Not happy, that's wrong. Naive to turn a blind eye to, they just like carry on as normal. Yeah, because it's a case of if it doesn't affect me, fuck them. That's what it comes down to in the end. The chickens come home to roost. Yeah. Everything ends up affecting us. Yeah. At what point, and I'm a little bit older than you, and I'd say the last 20 years we've seen this like hyper capitalist attitude of like, I'm in it for me, fuck everyone else. Yeah. And I'm now seeing, and I'm enjoying seeing it, a lot of business owners coming through are saying actually I have my most success when I help more people. Yeah, it's through collaboration. I used to be of this lone wolf mentality, and it's absolute bullshit because nothing's ever done on your own. Yeah. And when you have the right people around you, and you have the right team around you, and you have people you can bounce ideas off, you get way further than you would do on your own. Yeah. But I think it's a very, very British thing as well, in terms of you keep yourself to yourself. I don't think that's the case in other parts of the world. Well, yeah, my wife's family are Italian. Yeah. And it's an open door culture. Yeah. So like, you just walk into each other's houses. If you're having dinner, and someone walks in, they have to sit at the table. I think it's a very British thing. And I grew up in rural England, and it was like that too. Open door culture. Urban England is not like that. It used to be when we were growing up, to be fair. Yeah. But I think it's disappeared. It's disappeared. Used to have street parties, like real, I know that's a real random thing, but like, any excuse really to put a few tables in the road and just like, put some party rings out. You've got to remember the conditions that we're living in economically as well. People are under the most stress that they have ever been. Yeah. They're struggling to make ends meet. Pretending they're not, I think is the... Yeah. They're struggling to make ends meet. Readily available debt has fucked people up. This whole consumerism thing that's being pushed. You know, you've got to have certain things. And I speak about this a lot. It's got people fucked up. So when you push this need of being somebody through materialistic stuff, and then you also give them debt on demand, you're creating a nation that are essentially slaves to work. They have to go to work. I think that's what the mortgage system is. Yeah, well, that is what the mortgage system is. It's this whole full sense of ownership. But people forget that they're going to die, and they never truly own anything in this world. So you're brainwashed into thinking you're a somebody if you bought your house and you're living in it. You don't own the house. The bank owns the house. You've got to go work for the bank. I've got a mortgage. Yeah. But I have it with open eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the majority of people don't see it that way and don't go into it with open eyes. And they think they're a somebody or they've achieved something by having a shitload of debt. It doesn't make sense. But then on top of it, they've got to have the two or three holidays a year. And they've also got to be living a certain way, have two cars on the drive and so on and so forth. They think that's success. That's enslavement. That's enslavement to the point where you don't know who your neighbor on this side is and you don't know who your neighbor on this side is. Yeah. And I'm gonna still want to undertake this phrase, but it's the matrix. It is the matrix. People are plugged in. We got an hour in before you... mentioned it. Yeah. You called me a brookie once. What does that mean? I didn't call you a brookie. I've never called you a brookie. He did. Yeah. When I call you a brookie said it as a joke. It was a joke. Yeah. Well, what did you say? We tell us that we're having a joke about I onboarded you as a client to do your branding. Yeah. And one of the one of the questions was like, Who are three people? Yeah, what are the people you saw Andrew Tate? And I replied to you on text message something like, Andrew Tate, we can have a long chat about that. And you said, Don't come at me. You're brookie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't mean to call you a brookie. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no context of that. So in terms of understate, so I got a lot of comparisons and stick and whatever, you know, with understate, I know exactly what he's doing. I know, I can see when when he's saying certain shit, I'm pissing myself because I'm like, he's having a giggle. He's having all of the on and you're all buying it. That's for me as a marketer. And somebody who's like, every fucker knows who he is. I think I think Trump markets markets himself the same way. Yeah. Elon is the same. Kanye is the same. I'm nervous about that style of marketing. I think you're more nuanced than that. Yeah, is is the truth. The certain things I don't agree with that take those. There's a lot of things that I don't agree with. And over time, as you've seen Tate, you will see him contradict himself and sell himself out like he's done a podcast with Bonnie blue. If you really stood by what you were about, you would not be doing giving her any sort of fucking press. You wouldn't. So it just goes to show. But for me in terms of I think he's become a parody of what he was. Yeah, that was my honest. You know, he's listened to that podcast. You know, he's always he's always been a pirate parody. He's always been it's been a character that he's played. So the host, the host of that podcast, Rob Moore. Yeah, it's been on this podcast. So when he got them on, I knew exactly what he was. Yeah, yeah. And like I said, in terms of Tate, if you really stood for what he was talking about, initially, he wants to made you change on a lot of topics, a lot of topics. And he's run a webcam agency. Well, although he might have changed since then, I want to sell drugs in that case, though. Yeah, yeah. So that was previously however, when you're when you're coming out and you're talking, you know, going against being sorry, being an advocate for gender role, so on and so forth. But then also, you got naked women around you all the fucking time. Those two things. They don't mix, bro. So you're full of shit. You're full of shit. So but on the reason why I mentioned on that form is purely because of the way that he's managed to captivate an audience. Yeah. Whoever's behind him in terms of marketing, whoever's, however, that's what I respect someone who did it probably before your time, but was very famous for doing it. Richard Branson was okay. He didn't know how to make we didn't know how to make noise. But he wanted people to see Virgin as a very different type of business. Yeah. So he flew around the world in a hot air balloon. Yeah. Everyone else thought was fucking mental. Yeah. And it is. That's personal brand marketing stuff. Yeah, exactly. Exactly that. So that's the reason why I had him on that form is views and beliefs. I don't think he believes half the things he says. He can't because it contradicts contradicts. So so there's a whole but one thing I will say is the motherfucker can talk. He can fucking talk. He can he speaks with that much conviction. And he knows he's wrong. Trump. Yeah, very, very well. Well, like he says things with such a level of conviction as a fact that if you didn't know you would believe it. Yeah. The sky's green. Yeah. You'll be able to say in a way where you think have a look. Yeah. You know, so so talk me through that you you coached men. Yeah, men who by all intents and purposes are already successful. Yeah. How do they speak with conviction? Without full of shit? How do they speak with conviction? It's really important. Anything you say? Yeah. As a man or a woman? Yeah. If you believe it, you should say it with conviction. Yeah. But when someone comes to work with you? Yeah. They they're probably going through a process of like, figuring out what they actually believe in. Yeah, to an extent, a lot of the stuff comes from like insecurity. And like they are very insecure. Yeah. Hi. So it comes out to insecurity, very insecure. So a lot of the guys don't want to get on camera. Don't want to speak. They're scared of being judged. And they don't believe or recognise how well they've actually done. The kind of know it. But they don't at the same time. Yeah, it's kind of giving them the permission to back themselves even more so unlock that next level. Like I've had guys come to me who are on paper very successful. When you really dig into the insecure about absolutely everything. I don't think insecurity is a bad thing. I think it's a signal. I think a signal in areas that you're lacking. So I used to think that the greatest way for me to build my business was to prove myself wrong. So like, I would be like, I'd have like a lack of self worth. Yeah. And so I would build it bigger. So bridge that gap, try and bridge the gap. Yeah. And, and it worked for a long time till I ran out of energy, basically. And then when I moved away from that, and became actually the best way to both build the business and give myself worth is to serve a purpose and essentially make other people feel good, be it help them feed their families, help them live the life they want to lead. Yeah. I suddenly felt much more fulfilled as a person. Interesting. When I moved away from self. Yeah. Like chip on my shoulder mentality, I think, probably from upbringing. I think both are required to be fair. Because without that chip on your shoulder, you won't have the get up and go to get started. That's the fire. Yeah, lights, the lights, the fuel. Yeah, to keep going. It's not you. Yeah, to keep going. You do have to find that. That deeper, that deeper that deeper meaning. I do agree. But these guys are at the beginning of their journey in terms of coming on social media, or building out a personal brand. They need that. They need that. That spark. They need to bridge that gap and insecurity. Yeah, it's given that essentially what I do a lot of the time is given the permission to do so. Yeah. One of the easiest ways to get them on a podcast, I'm going to talk about what they believe in what they believe in, in a conversation. What's the most controversial thing anyone's said? For me, they're not. For me, there's nothing controversial. We agree on most things. Interesting, because they're attracted to you in the first year in the first place. All right, there's nothing really controversial. Something you said is you're not for everyone. I'm not. So you must then attract people who, well, occasionally you're gonna attract someone that's not the right fit, but generally you must attract people who think like you think. What would be like three key things that would make this so obvious? That I'm not for everyone. Yeah. Sounds like I'm baiting you, and I'm not baiting you. I would want people listening to this to one, know what you stand for, and therefore reach out to you if they were right. Yeah. But also to explore what these things might be. Okay, if you want me to be nice to you, just for the sake of being nice, then I'm not the one. Are you going? I'm not the one. I'm gonna tell you how it is. Yeah. How you process that is up to you. But what I will say with that as a caveat is I have your best interests at heart. So that old guy when you were in prison. Yeah. With the box of boxing videos. He was nice to you. Yeah. If he'd have been harsh, Yeah. would he have got through? What he said was harsh. Okay. What he said was harsh. But he just delivered it in a way. Yeah, so obviously rapport was built. Yes. And then he delivered something that was harsh because at that point in time, I was like, I'm gonna come out. The motherfuckers aren't gonna catch me again. Watch, it's on. He goes, come here you little prick. Yeah, yeah. Do you really think that's gonna happen? How you're planning out? Yeah. Really? You think you're not gonna end up in here? You daft cunt. I was like, okay, he's probably got a point. Yeah. The other, on the flip side, somebody could have been like, bro, fucking go for it, man. Enablers. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not gonna sit there and wallow with, help you wallow in your own pity. My best friends and mentors in life challenge my opinion. Yeah. It has to be done because you need another perspective. For you to see your blind spots, you need another perspective and it's gonna be uncomfortable. Yeah. And the guys that I tend to work with, they've got people around them who are nice to them. Maybe you should think about it this way or have you tried this? No, you dumb ass cunt. Look at it, it's in black and white. Yeah. You've tried this before and you've got this result. Are you happy with the results? Yes or no? How about we change tact? Yeah. I think that might be a good idea. Yeah, what about the other two? So that was number one was, don't expect, Mr. Nice Guy. The second thing in regards to, are you talking about my coaching style here? Yeah, yeah, I think so. Okay. Coaching style, values. Yeah. The things that people listen to this, that would be like, bloody hell, that was a deep conversation. I wonder why this guy isn't for everyone. Okay, got you. So the second thing would definitely be the life experience that I've got. So anything that you are going through, I've experienced it. So divorce, been there. Custody battles, been there. Been out of shape, been there. Failed in business. I had business before I went to prison, been there. So anything you are going through or experiencing, I've been there nine times out of 10. So it's that life experience you're gonna get. Yeah. I'm not the most, you know, analytical sort of guy, but what you're gonna get is a shit ton of experience through life. And in terms of the emotional support of what you're experiencing, because I've been there, I'll be able to guide you a lot better than a lot of other people would be able to who've grown up very differently in probably more comfortable circumstances. Nice. What about number three? What do you butt heads with people on the most? What comes into the DMs on some of your content? It's a lack of self-belief, you know? It's a lack of self-belief. That's gotta be the biggest killer for most guys is they know that something's got to change. But even given the plethora and the magnitude of proof that they've got in the locker already, they still doubt themselves. Yeah. So for me, it's coming into their life and seeing something in them that they can't see for themselves and being able to empower them on that. Yeah. Something you said, not to me, but I've seen you say, that struck a chord with me. And it's an interesting talking point from a coaching standpoint, is you don't trust fat people. Yeah. When you met me, I was pretty fat. Yeah. I'm still fat, but I'm getting thinner. You're absolutely trying to improve that. I am now, yeah. I haven't always been. So I was like, oh, I wonder if he trusted me when he met me, because obviously he chose to work with me and stuff. So the first time I met you in person and I was around you, we were at a mastermind. Was it a mastermind, the one at Alcatel? I was teaching a meta-ad today, I think, the first time. No, but I didn't meet you then. Okay. I didn't meet you. When I was around you and I experienced you. Yeah, yeah. One of your wins for that period of time, whatever it was, I've lost X amount of weight. Yeah, yeah. So at that point- Were you already working with me then? We'd already done the branding before that day. Yeah. So it's an interesting, I mean, trust is obviously a spectrum anyway. Yeah. But I was like, oh, that's interesting. He says he doesn't, I mean, I don't trust fat people. It's such a cutting statement when there's a nuance obviously around it. But I was like, oh, I wonder if he trusted me. I was like, he trusted me enough to give me enough money to do this project. Yeah. So I was like, and like, then in my brain, which is where I would like read your statement and be like, oh, maybe I won't work with him then, was there's some very fat, successful people. There's some very capable fat people. Yeah. And yet the thing that was nagging me about the statement was I kind of agreed with it. Yeah. The thing is, with that statement, you've got to think of the thought process behind that. Fat people can't trust themselves around food. Nobody wants to be overweight. I don't think anybody thinks, yeah, I'm going to be fat when I'm older. That's a modern concept though, isn't it? What's that? Not wanting to be overweight. Yeah, but what I'm saying is this day and age, nobody wants to be fat. Yeah. Nobody wants to be fat. But what led him to that point, the fact that they can't trust themselves around food. Yeah. Okay, cool. And people will always, they'll come to a certain point where people will reveal themselves in terms of their behaviours. So I've seen it many a time where I've had a doubt about someone because of the way that they acted. And then that's exactly what's- Hand out somewhere else. Yeah, down the line, down the line. So in terms of, I don't know. don't trust fat people, in a scenario where I've done something wrong and you're being interrogated for it, I'm gonna be a bit worried, because I know you've got the capability of folding. Yeah, that's such a criminal way of explaining it, but yeah. Yeah, I know you could probably snitch because you fold when there's fucking food about. Yeah. Are you with me? And a lot of the time, you can't trust yourself. In that scenario, you can't trust yourself, and then as you've lost weight and you've started to create that proof for yourself, I'm sure that's kind of spilt over into other areas of your life. I'll tell you why it hurt me, and the hurt is a strong word again, I'm not easily hurt. Why it resonated with me is my disordered eating is born out of other things, as it would be for most people. Yeah. So I was like, well, the reason I eat is because I'm usually knackered and I've been beating myself up all day because I've been serving other people. Yeah. And so actually, the reason you should trust me is the reason that I eat, but that's also a false narrative that I tell myself, because if I had looked after myself properly whilst I was doing those activities, I wouldn't have done that. That's on you. Yeah. It's on you. Which is why it hurt. Yeah. It wouldn't have hurt if it wasn't true. Yeah. And that highlights the insecurity. I had a conversation with a client about this, and he went on holiday on a stag do, and he was insecure. One, about the way that he looked, and two, he was around other successful people and he felt insecure about their success. Okay. And I go, when you're feeling insecure, let's say, for example, you had a six pack right now, Joel. It's there somewhere. Yeah. No, but you had one on display, you know? If I called you a fat cunt, it would not affect you. No. It would not affect you. But if you were to be overweight. Well, that's not true, is it? Like there are people with body dysmorphia who've got six packs. Joel, come on now. Come on. That's not really going to happen. What tends to happen a lot, a lot more is. They'll laugh. Yeah, they'll laugh. They'll laugh it off. They will laugh it off. In terms of actually crippling insecurity, you can't call somebody with six pack abs a fat cunt and then crumble. It's somebody who is overweight a lot of the time. So insecurity, when you get that pain or. Like taking it to the extreme. Yeah. My best friend had anorexia and depression. Yeah. She's not with us anymore. And you could call her fat and it would hurt. She wasn't fat. Yeah. That's where I think, deep down, that's where a statement like that could. If you called her skinny, would she have been hurt? Yes, as well. Yeah, so what the fuck you meant, do that? Well, just see the territory we're in. No, no, but what I'm saying is if you made any comment about her body, she would have been hurt. We showed she's insecure about her body. Full stop. Yes. Yeah, cool. The question is, how do you rectify that? Yeah. That's the real question. That's the thing I'm looking at is like, to work with you, you need to be in a place where you're ready to rectify. Yeah. And there are people out there that maybe through no fault of their own would see a statement like that and say, look, Imti's not your guy. Exactly, I've had clients off the back of that. I've had opportunities off the back of that. For my next event, check this for a mad one. That exact video that you're talking about, there's a guy who said the same thing that you said, Charlie Norton, if you're watching this, big up. Charlie Norton, he is in mergers and acquisitions, okay? And this guy knows from High Flyers. He commented on that video, I know loads of people who are overweight who are building theirs. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Now, if that didn't strike a chord with him, because he is- Wouldn't have commented. Yeah, yeah. But he's now speaking at my next event. So something resonated. Which is the whole, I think, discussion is healthy. Yeah. And it's okay to disagree. Yeah. And you need to bring opinions into the room. And if I kept that opinion to myself, then that opportunity wouldn't have lined up. Are you with me? So I do believe that. I do believe people, I do believe people who are overweight have an issue with trusting themselves. If you can't trust yourself, how the fuck am I meant to trust you? Yeah, yeah. If you really break it down logically, how can I trust you? Because if I'm working with you, depends to what level you're around me, I won't know you got my back. Yeah. Because when somebody's got my back, I'll break my back for them. Yeah, yeah. I will literally break my back for them. And it's characterized through, like we're picking on like one thing of 500 character traits. Yeah. And it's how you spot whether someone is reliable or not. Much like- Timekeeping, timekeeping. How do they park their car? Yeah, yeah. So all these sorts of things, they give you signals, they give you enough information for you to make a educated assumption on what someone's going to be like down the line. And you've seen it in your life, you've seen it in your life when you had red flags and you didn't pick up on them. And down the line you thought, fuck. So the problem for me, and a lot of people that listen to this podcast will be ignoring red flags because the business is struggling that month or they want to keep somebody else happy. And then those red flags come back to bite you in the ass. Yeah. It's exactly that. I read a book called What They're Doing Teaching Harvard Business School. And he talks about this exact same thing. How people show you how they're going to act down the line when the pressure's on. Just choose not to pay attention. Yeah, I mean, the mentorship you're in now, this time last year, I'd just taken over the business and they took us up Snowdon with the SAS at midnight. And it was pissing down, it was freezing. And I fell ill just before we left and didn't tell anyone. So an hour in, I was in all sorts of trouble. And there's 200 of us on the side of this mountain. And in my head, I was like, I don't fucking get up this mountain and back down again. No one in this group will ever trust me again. Yeah. And it's right. So I did it. Even though I didn't even get back till like quarter seven in the morning. Yeah. I was like, there is no way I can be the only person that comes off this mountain having not done it. Yeah. That's the great thing about group accountability, it fucking works. Imti, you have been an epic guest. I could talk to you all day. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you? Get on to me on Instagram. It's my full name, imtiaz underscore gulam. And you can also find me on the Legacy podcast on YouTube. Legend. Thanks for coming on. Thank you, Will.