Find Your Lilt
Step into the world of Irish fiddling with "Find Your Lilt," the podcast where your fellow fiddler, Hannah Harris, guides you through the ebbs and flows of mastering the real feel of Irish music.
Find Your Lilt
Practicing with Purpose: How Jack Hughes Builds Musical Confidence
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Jack Hughes didn't grow up playing fiddle – he started as a trumpet player, picking up the violin at 21 years old. Yet his thoughtful approach to practicing and performing Irish traditional music offers tremendous insights for musicians at any stage in their journey.
In this illuminating conversation, Jack reveals how his trumpet background shaped his distinctive fiddle methodology. He explains his practice of beginning every session by focusing on what Suzuki called "natural tone" – allowing the instrument to speak with ease rather than forcing sound production. This foundation of relaxation and clarity becomes the bedrock upon which everything else is built.
The discussion delves deep into the art of deliberate practice. Jack shares a transformative insight from his teacher Brendan Mulvihill: "Play it 500 times as is and then you can vary it." This patient approach – giving every note its due time rather than rushing to performance speed – creates playing that feels effortless even at high tempos. Jack articulates how slowing down recordings of master musicians reveals their relaxed technique beneath seemingly blazing speeds.
Perhaps most valuably, Jack outlines his performance preparation process. Rather than practicing isolated sections, he advocates for contextual practice – playing entire sets without stopping, just as in performance. This builds the confidence to maintain rhythm and flow regardless of small technical mistakes. His approach to recording practice sessions also separates creative playing from critical evaluation, allowing both to happen more effectively.
Throughout the conversation, Jack's philosophy emerges: "There's no point in playing this music if you're not enjoying it." His approach prioritizes finding joy in the process, believing the most compelling performances come from musicians truly invested in the emotional heart of the music rather than technical showmanship alone.
Whether you're a seasoned musician or just beginning your journey, Jack's thoughtful perspective offers practical wisdom to transform your relationship with practice and performance. How might focusing on ease and natural tone change your own approach to music-making?
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And we're back with another episode for the Find your Little Podcast. So today I am so excited to welcome on my friend, jack Hughes. So you've heard from Jim Lendroth, one of my first guests on the podcast, and Jim, jack and I have a trio which we call the Talbot Trio. We're kind of sticking with that name because we all roomed together in Wexford this past August for the Flock Yule and we were staying at the Talbot Suites there and decided that we were going to be the Talbot Trio. We just kind of came up with that name as we were hanging out and getting to go to all the sessions and meet some great folks over participating in the floss.
Speaker 1:One of the big reasons why I wanted to have Jack on the show is just from being around him and knowing his tendencies and the way that he practices and prepares for challenges.
Speaker 1:I really just admire his approach and I think that there's a lot that I can learn from him, a lot that you all can learn from the way that he practices and the way that he again prepares for something that he like, whether this is a performance or if you're getting ready for competition like the floccule. I just love his approach in general, and I think that I just wanted to have him on the show so that I could ask him about it and have him share his process and hopefully this is inspiring for you all. So I had a great chat with Jack I, of course, have recorded these towards the end of the the episode, so I already know what we talked about, but I'll check back in at the end here and we just had a really, really great chat about all things fiddling all things with his approach, with performing, with practicing, and I hope that you enjoy the episode. Here's Jack Hughes. Well, jack Hughes, welcome to the Find your Little Podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Well, we've had one half or one third of the Talbot Trio on already, so nice to have the other member. So Jim Linder is our mutual friend and we're, I guess, unofficially calling ourselves the Talbot Trio. But I like it and I'm just going to keep voting for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a feeling it's going to stick just due to momentum alone, because we've just been calling it that until another name comes along. But it's so connected to our founding of when we were staying at the Talbot Suites in Wexford, so it's a nice memory.
Speaker 1:So I have a feeling it 'll stick around for a little bit until we get a cease and desist letter from them yeah, exactly yeah, maybe we'll have our opening house concert at the talbot suite that's a good idea I love that, um, so the main thing I wanted to chat with you about today is, um, just from knowing you and spending time with you and knowing your, your, your practice or some of your practice routine. Like, I want to dig more into that, because I'm kind of focusing a lot of these episodes around the way that you can practice and the way that you approach learning new tunes or learning style or technique, and I think for you, especially because you were originally a trumpet player- so you're coming into fiddle and I'd love to hear just kind of your approach, because one I love listening to your fiddle playing.
Speaker 1:I think it's. You've got a great style with what you've developed already and I think that other people could benefit from your strategies potentially, or get some ideas of what they want to try out for themselves. So let's hear all about your approach to practicing.
Speaker 2:Great Well, thank you, I appreciate the kind words and I'm someone who thinks a lot about practice and warming up in routine and things, mainly because, as you mentioned, I didn't grow up playing fiddle. I am originally a trumpet player. I started on piano first and trumpet and played those through my teens and I started violin when I was about, I'd say, 21. I had a really great classical violin teacher for about one year who just set me up with the basics and then from there it was kind of figuring things out on my own. But I think, because I have studied a couple different instruments, a couple different styles of music, a lot of how I approach fiddle comes from things I've learned from other teachers.
Speaker 2:For example, my first trumpet teacher actually my only trumpet teacher who I had from the age of eight to 18, ed Cooper, a wonderful musician who actually recently passed away. So I've been thinking a lot about him and his teaching approach. And so for those 10 years every single lesson started with what we called long tones, which was just sustaining notes, the full duration of the breath with the most beautiful sound possible. We would play in unison, unison. I do not know how he did not get bored of playing every single lesson. You know that he did. Started with probably a good 15 minutes of long tones.
Speaker 2:And then we would do them at the end of the lesson as well, and I remember being so bored at the time.
Speaker 2:But now I'm really thankful that he did that, because it's something that I really transferred to my fiddle playing, which is the idea of I spend the first couple of minutes of every time I pick up the instrument thinking just about tone and about just kind of like ease of tone production.
Speaker 2:I'm not necessarily trying to play something very complex or impressive, I'm just feeling how the bow feels on the string and just feeling that ease, and I'm aiming for, I'd say, just the clearest possible tone. And I try to start with that. I think of that as like the ground or like the foundation, and then I kind of build, I start adding pieces on top of that. So once I do that, then maybe I'll play, you know, some scales or some things to kind of get my fingers moving. I'll practice some ornaments and then sort of I kind of build up my practice bit by bit. But I think the most important thing for me and I've been thinking a lot about this lately I've been really nerding out a lot about the Suzuki method. I don't know, did you grow up doing Suzuki at?
Speaker 1:all I did yeah.
Speaker 2:So I recently just got his book, suzuki's book on tonalizations. He has an entire book on tone where all of his ideas on tone are put together in one book and he talks a lot about this, this term, what he calls natural tone, this idea that every instrument has sort of its natural kind of default ringing tone. So he has you pluck the string and listen to that ringing sound and aim for that. And yeah, that term natural tone has just been sitting in my head kind of nonstop as I've been playing lately, because I think sometimes again when I was playing, I was sort of clenched or I was aiming, I was trying to get a sound out of the instrument and that ended.
Speaker 2:I would sometimes would kind of push too hard or push the bow into the string. And I think that term natural tone it's not something you're doing to the instrument, you're sort of getting out of the way and letting the instrument speak on its own, and this idea that every violin sort of has its own natural voice and the more that you can get that resonance and that voice to come out, and it has sort of an ease, an ease to it. And I think that that's sort of been my theme for the past few weeks is working with that idea of that natural tone and I, every time I pick up my instrument, I start with that and then I move on. I'll start very slow and then I'll move. Maybe I'll start playing a tune very slowly, but I really try to focus on that, I would say that ease and that feeling of relaxation and that feeling of natural tone, and then I sort of let the music flow out of that.
Speaker 1:I think it's really good that it's almost like the opposite approach to what a lot of fiddle players will do when they sit down to practice tunes. Is they want to play through the tune, and that's just. They want to get the notes. Is they want to play through the tune and that's just they want to get the notes. They want to play it all all the way up to tempo and rhythm and with good tone of course, but like that slowing down mentality and really like, even when you're playing fast, you need that easy motion in order to play fast, in order to have that momentum. So I think that, more of a part of your practice, I think is a really smart idea to be used to that feeling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it was when I first started fiddle. I played a tune for someone once and I thought I was very impressive, playing very fast, and I remember cause they they described my playing as manic. I thought, oh, that's not good, because when I I'm someone who slows down recordings a lot, I think YouTube, having the feature to slow down recordings, has been the best, is the best thing for anyone learning Irish traditional music and fiddle in general. Whenever I find a recording, I, like I just love to slow it down. And what's interesting, what I found is that someone can be playing so fast and it can have this intensity like this, this fiery speed to it, but when you slow it down it it comes across as incredibly relaxed. So they're playing very relaxed, but it happens to be very fast. Is that Kitty?
Speaker 1:crossing.
Speaker 2:There's our guest on third mic.
Speaker 2:There Was that a quote like a meme from Two set violin if you can play it slow, you can play it fast, which, honestly, that is so true.
Speaker 2:And so I think that once that once I realized, like I didn't want, I felt like when I was trying to play fast it would come across as someone trying to play fast. I think I really, just when I focus on tone and not just tone but ease, like I focus on that feeling in my body where you have more than enough time for every note, every note just comes out, there's an effortlessness, you're not nervous, you're relaxed. And I start with that and then I move up the tempo just the tiniest, tiniest bit. But I always try to keep that kind of baseline feeling of relaxation and ease. And what I've found is that, like, as I've been playing maybe tunes for a couple years, or if there's a tune I've been playing for many years, I don't feel like I'm playing it fast, but maybe someone in a session will say oh, that's really fast or I'll record it back and I'll check the tempo.
Speaker 2:And it actually was much faster than I thought and I think that is sort of I'm finally able to reach that feeling where it doesn't feel fast to me because I played it so many times and it's almost like it's mentally slow because you know where every note is, every note has its place, the it's coming across as fast because you just know the tune so well. You've been playing it um in in the preface to um. So my first fiddle teacher was a great fiddler named brendan mulvihill, who also who just recently passed away in december. I've been playing a lot of his tunes and just revisiting a lot of my recordings from lessons with him. He was just a wonderful person, wonderful fiddler, a huge inspiration to me as a musician. He put out two books of tunes and in the preface to his first book the overall advice he gives when learning a tune. He says to give every note its due time and don't take away time from any note. And I think I just think there's so much wisdom in that.
Speaker 2:I find when I record myself and I don't always like how I sound if I'll slow it down I find that I'm jumping off notes a little bit too quickly and again, that's something that if you really slow down and you hear every single note, almost like it's a slow air, but maybe not really, but almost as though you were to kind of sing it and you hear every single note and just give it its due time, then the speed will come.
Speaker 2:The speed is the last piece and it comes again sort of effortlessly. But if you sort of try to jump ahead which I myself was guilty of doing for a long time I've tried to skip these steps and just jump straight into playing fast and it just never had that good relaxed feeling. What I love about Irish music it's so invigorating and it puts that lift in your heart, but at the same time it almost lulls you into a trance. It's sort of like an upper and a downer at the same time, and I think it's the good musicians who are able to achieve that affect. Are it's because of that relaxation and the way that they create that rhythm and that that transverses. If you're just trying to play fast, it kind of puts the listener on edge. You get the upper part, but you don't get that feeling of sort of sinking into the tune.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you kind of hear the frenzy and some of it it feels like it's spiraling out of control there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I definitely have had a couple of runaway train moments in my fiddle playing career, so I'm trying definitely to minimize those.
Speaker 1:I think that's also a good tip that you mentioned about recording yourself and listening back, because I think a lot of times too and I know I've done this is you listen to a tune and you know all the notes of the tune in your head and you think that you're playing them all on the fiddle, but maybe you cut a note short, like you say, and you can't really hear that in the moment because you're so busy listening to the tune rather than what you're actually producing, because it's kind of like your brain's playing the tune in your head and you're playing along to what's in your brain and then actually listening back to a recording and be like there's a note missing that should be there yep, yeah, I'm a huge proponent of listening and I think, um, I think sort of as an artist, as a musician, being able to wear these different hats and know sort of when to be critical and then when to just play.
Speaker 2:And I think recording is great because you can't critique yourself while you're playing. There's too much going on, it'll lead to being in a bad head space. So I think you can separate the two and you can just play and play your heart out and just record yourself playing and enjoy the performance. But then I do go back and then I put my critical hat on and I listen and I say, ok, that role didn't really come out, that intonation was wonky there, I sort of lost the rhythm there. But I think it's very important to not do that while you're playing, evaluating something that happens later, and I think, the more that you can separate the two, you can just be in the moment and enjoy performing.
Speaker 2:And this is actually something I learned from studying composition. I'm also was also a composer. Well, still am a composer, but originally I studied music composition. And it's something I learned from one of my teachers. Because, again, when you're feeling creative, when you're in the flow state, the flow state is not about judging and nitpicking and correcting. The flow state is just about creating. So that is step one.
Speaker 2:When you compose or when you play, you want to get into that flow state and you just want to get something out there onto the page. You want to get something out as a recording. But then you have to be I don't want to say harsh, but you know you then you have to be detail oriented. And then there's the next step and my teacher would always say you know, compose, put your piece down and then maybe the next day come back and look at it coldly, objectively, as though you didn't write it.
Speaker 2:And I do the same with with my fiddle playing, all you know, play my heart out or record something, give a little bit of time and then I'll come back and I'll listen as though it was just a recording I found online on Spotify. Whatever, I'll just listen to it as though it wasn't me playing, because getting that distance, I think, is important. And again, you can't do the two at the same time because you won't really deliver an enjoyable performance. So I'm a big proponent of recording, because you're able to really focus in on those details but not let it get in the way of your performance.
Speaker 1:Definitely. I agree with all that of your performance, definitely.
Speaker 1:I agree with all that. So one thing that you were mentioning too that I wanted to briefly touch back on was just, you know, getting really, really comfortable with the tune, and so you get to a state where it feels really relaxed and easy. I know you're not going to be able to put a hard, fast number on this, but do you have like a ballpark of how many times you played that tune before it got really comfortable, or does it change for different tunes for you?
Speaker 2:500. Actually that number is specific. It's sort of a funny story with in one of my lessons with Brendan Mulvihill I was he's famous for putting all these variations into tunes and really moving around the tune in very creative ways and so I was doing that in a fairly new tune Maybe. I learned it a couple of lessons prior. I was playing and he did something he almost never did, which he stopped in the middle of playing. He stopped and he said you're varying it too much. And I just said like well, I'm just trying to put in variations like you, or I'm just I was trying to. Maybe I was learning the variations that he did when he recorded, but I think I said something about I'm just trying to vary it. And I remember very clearly he said play it 500 times as is and then you can vary it, and that number just stuck in my head.
Speaker 2:I don't count, but again, I think I almost not in terms of the amount of times I play it, but I also think in terms of just time duration, like I think I had to live with a tune for probably a couple of months, at least a couple of weeks, and so I really like doing it in a couple stages I'll learn a tune and I'll learn the basic notes and I'll play it. But then sometimes I'll just put it aside for a little bit, I'll go do something else and I really like revisiting a tune. Then I'll kind of pick it up, put it down, pick it up. But I think you have to live with the tune for a little bit before it really becomes part of you and it can come out and I think, a lot of that. Again, you know you could play a tune 500 times in one day. I don't think you would sort of tick off that feeling of really learning the tune as opposed to, let's say, if you played it, you know, twice a day for 150 days, I think.
Speaker 2:I think you just sometimes you need to sleep on it and you need to live with it. You need to get it stuck with your head, stuck in your head, and hum it while you're doing the dishes and while you're doing things and and get in that you know, just get the, the flow of the tune down. So yeah, for me it's a lot. Um, you know, I play through the tune again and again, but I I've have sort of accepted that it's just going to take time.
Speaker 2:So I don't try to rush it and I I learn a couple tunes at a time. I have different tunes sort of in different states, like a tune that maybe I'm just learning, a tune that I'm polishing, so and it's. I know this is such a cliche, but it really is true that to just enjoy the process and enjoy where you are with the tune, because these tunes are wonderful and they sound really good, slow too. So I really try to not be in a rush to speed it up and just the more that I can enjoy a tune slow and sort of just revel in its twists and turns and then just trust that it'll kind of speed up almost on its own.
Speaker 1:You know I'm thinking about jack speed for reels over here.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, jack, speed for reels Reels never played faster than 90 BPM.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh Well. So what does your polishing process look like? What's the difference between a tune that you're just starting and one that's polished to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm thinking about this a lot now because I'm gearing up for the flaw, the Midwest flaw, which is happening at the end of April. So I'm working on my tunes for that and again I like I start very, very early because I want to do sort of lay the groundwork early and then just feel like I can enjoy the tune and not feel like I'm, um, what's the word? Trying to cram, like you're cramming for a test or something like that. So yeah, so I'd say I learned the basics of a tune, I put it aside and then, yeah, what does the polishing look like?
Speaker 2:A lot of recording, a lot of going back, a lot of playing things in context. So one thing that I almost never do is I'll never, almost never, just practice one part of a tune. Maybe once in a while I will, or maybe when I'm warming up I'll play each part. But I'm really a firm believer, I think so. Irish music is so much about that flow and there's such a big difference between being able to do, let's say, a variation or an ornament, you know, isolated, versus doing it the third time through a tune when you've gone through all these other notes coming to it. So I'm a big proponent of practicing everything sort of in context, and I broaden that out even to my entire set list.
Speaker 2:So, as I'm getting closer to the flaw, something I did last year is I would warm up and then I would just hit record on my iPhone and I would sit down and I would play my four tunes air hornpipe, jig reel without stopping, with you know, maybe 20 seconds between each one, as though it were the performance, and then I would go back. So I wouldn't even record the tunes individually, I would record them all because again, it's that context, you know, playing the reel at the end after you played everything, no matter what happened with the tunes before. I felt like when I went into the flaw last year, I just felt prepared, in that I knew where every note was in the context of my entire performance. So overall, I'd say my advice is to put things in context as early as possible.
Speaker 2:I almost never stop and will practice a specific spot, maybe once in a while to get it, but then I'll go all the way back to the beginning of the tune and play up to that point. And if I can't do the variation or the ornament you know, 10 times in a row, let's say, if it's the final strain of a tune, you know, the third time, if I can't start at the very first note and and nail it um 10 times, I I'll take it out Um, even if I can play it 10 times in a row on its own. So I'm a big proponent of putting things in context, where they belong, very early on in the process.
Speaker 1:And you added a layer to that too when, uh, you played for me and Jim. So we kind of practiced, um, when we were in Wexfordford so this was before the big, the big floss or the Midwest, and then we had the big one. But, yeah, we did kind of that same thing where you ran through your entire set and to add that layer of maybe like anticipation, you're playing for other people and even though you know we're we're not big judges or anything, we, we were, we loved everything that you played. So but just having that, you know, practice of playing in front of somebody else, and then same thing with jim playing for you too.
Speaker 2:So practicing performance is is just so, so important, and my, my first tip to anyone learning anything in music is to um to get a teacher and get regular, regular lessons. That is the absolute first step, and we have a lovely teacher here, if you're looking for one Because that's before you can do anything.
Speaker 2:You just need to have that regular benchmark Because it essentially is a weekly performance. If you play something that you're working on for your teacher and actually I'm thinking back to Ed Cooper, my trumpet teacher, that was also something I almost he almost never let me play anything twice, like whatever piece I was working on, I would, I would play it through and he would give me some comments and things like that. We would maybe go and fix something, but again it wasn't. You know, now do it again. Now do it again. Now do it again. And I think, looking back, like there was a reason he did that because he was really focusing on you know where are you with this piece. You know if you sit down and if you play it right away.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of friends in the world of classical music and some of them are in the process of either auditioning for orchestras or maybe playing orchestras, and the orchestra audition process is infamously brutal and rigorous because you're playing behind a screen and you're trying to perfect these very difficult excerpts. And I remember one person's teacher told them I think this was sort of as a joke, but I think it's true where he basically said that you should sleep with your violin next to you and be able to roll out of bed at three in the morning and roll off your Don Juan excerpt or whatever it is, but I think that that was fiddle. You know it's a little extreme, but what he's saying with that is that, again, it might not be perfect, but to be able to pick up your instrument at any time and be able to give a performance and then sort of accept the results. I just think that gives you a much more accurate view of going into any performance, as to where you stand with it. And then again, just for me, because I didn't grow up playing violin, it's all about building consistency. Because I and grow up playing violin, it's all about building consistency. And the consistency is there so that I can stay in a good headspace while performing.
Speaker 2:Because for me, let's say, if I miss something, we all make mistakes, but if there's something that really surprises me, that doesn't come out right, then I can sort of lose my headspace in the performance.
Speaker 2:So all this stuff, it's not necessarily to sound perfect, because actually my goal is to not sound perfect. My goal is to stay in the flow and enjoy the performance. So that's what I personally need to stay in the flow and to enjoy the performance is that feeling of confidence of you know, I know where every note is, I have confidence that things will come out and, beyond that, I have confidence that if I make a mistake, I'll make it in time with my, with my repertoire, for the flaw. You know, even if I made a mistake, I was at the point where I would not lose the rhythm, no matter what, and that that led to the confidence going in where I knew it wouldn't be perfect, but I knew that, no matter what happened, even if I fudged a roll or messed up something, that I could make a mistake in time and keep going and sort of move on. And that really helped a lot with the, with the nerves.
Speaker 1:Yeah, You've put in the time to really just be consistent with all these practice hours and that. That just kind of builds that foundation for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you can just go and enjoy, just go and enjoy the performance and know that you, you did your best and you can just, you know, present the tunes. I also just really pick tunes that I love. I don't I never try to perform tunes, you know, because I think they're impressive or because I think whoever will like them. I just pick tunes that mean something to me. Personally, I'm working on a lot of um brend Brendan's tunes, or settings of his tunes, or tunes I learned from him for the flogs, because you know, I don't want to pay homage to him and you know there are tunes that really have a deep meaning to me and I love. So, again, it's, it's um, it's not about, oh, look how amazing I am. It's more about, I think, presenting the tune and keeping the focus on the tune and on the music. And again, if you just come at it like that, I try to stay humble about it. It's, it's um.
Speaker 1:Not hard for me to stay humble when I hear all these good fiddlers out there, it's pretty easy well, you're also pressing on brendan's legacy too.
Speaker 2:So it's yeah, exactly yeah, and it's you know, if, if I can do and that's what I love about irish music is you're, when you play a tune or when you go to a session, you're kind of joining in in this, this long history of this, this thing that's been going on long before any of us were here and we'll keep going after any of us are gone, and you become part of something that is so much bigger than just yourself, and that is what is so special about about Irish music. You know, one of the many things that I love about it.
Speaker 1:I feel like this is probably part of your answer to this, but what? What motivates you to keep practicing and keep coming back to your instrument, week after week, day after day?
Speaker 2:yeah, just because I feel like I'm making progress and I always feel like there's the next step that I'm aiming for. But I just love playing tunes, I love the music. It's such a and I work hard when I practice but I have to admit it doesn't always feel like work Sometimes it does, but it's work that I'm happy to do because I love the music, I love the results and I would say anything I've done in music whether it was composition or trumpet or fiddle if it was a project I always really believed in and put my whole heart into it, always would naturally lead to something else. For example, practicing so much for the Flaw and going to Wexford. And then I met you and Jim and we have our trio and you know more opportunities are coming out of that.
Speaker 2:I just feel like everything I've done that I really cared about led to either a connection or forming a bond with another musician or another opportunity. And so it's not about, I would say you know I'm not the type of person that is seeking out every possible opportunity. I just find things that I really care about, tunes that I really care about and love, and what I found is that if you just really put everything into it and, you know, perform with humility and love and do the absolute best you can, it will lead to maybe one other thing and then that thing will lead to another thing and you kind of build this chain and things sort of just develop sort of in their own time. There's kind of this natural unfolding.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. How did you first get into Irish music?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I always, I always loved it and I used to listen to it a lot, but I never had the chops to play it. I never felt like I could play fast enough, so it was almost like my brain was moving faster than my fingers. So I sort of forgot, I kind of put aside irish music for a little while and I was playing actually viola. Um, I switched over from violin to viola and I was playing in um orchestras and string quartets and just playing for fun. And then it was actually the early days, those early days of lockdown, when really nothing was happening. I was living in Chicago at the time and they even closed the lakefront. I still remember the police sign across the lakefront and Chicago is not a very green city. There wasn't a lot of places to go. I lived near a cemetery, which was my solace and my refuge was going to the cemetery. It was so peaceful. But I remember just sitting at home. I didn't have much going on, I didn't have a job and I thought, well, I'm not going to sit in my apartment and play viola etudes on my own. That's not very exciting. And suddenly I just picked up and I started playing some tunes. I knew maybe 10 tunes from when I was a teenager, um, or yeah, whenever. So I started violin first. I maybe played for a year when I was a teenager and then put it aside and then when I was 21 I got my teacher sort of started in earnest. So when I first started I went to my first session when I was maybe 15. I knew, knew a couple of tunes but you know, really couldn't play, couldn't keep up. But I picked up some of those tunes during COVID and suddenly realized, hang on, like I actually kind of have the basic chops for this. You know I wasn't really doing the tunes justice or I wasn't really getting into the nuances of the music, but I just had the basic mechanics of the instrument down and then from there it just clicked, the stars aligned, I didn't have much else going on and there I just went really deep into it.
Speaker 2:I moved back home into my parents' basement. As I said, I was unemployed, I was looking for jobs, but it was there where I got connected with Brendan Mulvihill, who was living in Fairfax Virginia at the time. But it was there where I got connected with Brendan Mulvihill, who was living in Fairfax Virginia at the time and he didn't have any other students. We would sit outside on his porch because it was COVID, and play tunes and we would have these. It turned into these three hour long lessons Once I started bringing the Guinness over. Then the lessons really took flight and I think it was just what we both needed at the time, because I was his only student and it was.
Speaker 2:If you remember, those times there was not a lot of social interaction going on and it just felt like it was the right thing, that came along at the right time, whereas before, maybe when I was a teenager, I loved the music. It was the right thing, but it wasn't quite the right time for me. Where I was with violin or it was, you know, in my education, I was doing lots of other things, but this felt like it was the right thing at the right time and when that happened it just clicked. And then obsession is the only way I can describe it. It just became an obsession where you know the, the tradition, as we all know all these folk traditions.
Speaker 2:They just each one runs so deep. Each one is like a well or something that just goes deeper and deeper. The more and the more you put into it, the more it gives back, which I think is true of of all art in general. It just it kind of has endless returns and, um, there's sort of no limit to how deep you can go with it. I think it just kept again.
Speaker 1:It just kept building sort of on its own momentum I was actually I was just chatting with claire shirey last night, um, for another one of these podcast interviews and she was saying, just she has this love for, you know, being able to continue learning and it's just so exciting that there's more out there to learn within irish music and it's I mean, there's not gonna be a point where you know all the tunes or you know all the history and just. It's's not going to be a point where you know all the tunes or you know all the history, and just it's really, really cool to be able to find new things and yeah it was.
Speaker 2:it is a Rachmaninoff quote where he said like a life is music is enough for one life, but one life is not enough for music. And it's definitely true, and I think it's also the great cellist Pablo Casals. People asked him why he was practicing at the age of 89 or something and he said because I'm getting better. And those two quotes.
Speaker 1:One of the many textbooks of college and post-grad.
Speaker 2:It's college and post-grad.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so speaking of composing we were talking about this earlier you have written a set of slip polkas which I've played recently and actually, by the time this interview goes out, they'll be on my YouTube channel, the live performance with Randy Klepper and Andy Crespi. Andy had reached out to me before Tune Junkie Weekend. He's like do you have any tunes that are in like odd meters or not your typical trad tune type? And I was like, well, I've got some slip polkas. So that my friend wrote and yeah, I would love to hear more about just how you came around to writing these. I mean, we had a lot of fun messing around with them back in January and, yeah, they definitely stuck with me. So I have them memorized now that I had to learn them for a concert.
Speaker 2:So that's great and it's yeah, I had. I had a lot of fun playing them with you and Jim and and the performance with with Randy and and who was the other musician that you were playing, Andy.
Speaker 1:Andy Crespi.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah. Yeah, it was a great performance and I loved hearing the recording and it was very honored that you performed those. So, yeah, I had a lot of fun writing those. I have to say, I did not even know what a slip polka was when I wrote them. I think maybe I called them mazurkas originally, well, but I was thinking of them as polkas, as a polka in three-four. So I was just happy to know that there actually is a thing called a slip polka. I'm trying to think back.
Speaker 2:So I wrote those not this summer but the summer before, and what I do remember is that I basically wrote them in a very short time frame. They were sort of written as a set, like once the first tune came out, the others sort of came out. So it was almost like the set was written as a composition. It wasn't like a lot of sets. You know, we take these pre-existing tunes and we put them together. But I'd say these three tunes were written meant to be performed together in the way one sort of leads to the next and they build, and I think, if I remember correctly, the first one came out of just messing around and kind of improvisation. So what I'll do so that, speaking of the Suzuki tonalizations, I remember what I was doing two summers ago is I was trying to write like sort of fiddle tonalizations of these certain licks, especially that I was hearing in airs or in other slower tunes, and I would just try to practice those licks in different keys. Um, just again, just to focus on on sound, like I'm building the building blocks of of of you know my performance, so that I can just play a tune. So, and I think so I would pick a key and I warm up and so that key the first tune is in D minor and I was playing in D minor and then essentially I would just sort of start in essentially like improvising an air or just improvising some type of tune in that key, and I was doing a different key each day and it was mostly actually for my fiddle chops to work on intonation and sound.
Speaker 2:Um, but I think the opening lick of that tune came out once and I'm pretty sure again I got excited, I hit record on my phone and messed around with it a little bit and then, um, from there I think I got the a part and then I sat down with some paper and I worked out the b part and then from there again. Like, the second tune naturally came out of that, the third tune naturally came out of that, the third tune naturally came out of that, and I actually wrote them out originally as a trio for fiddle, fiddle and viola, so for two, fiddles and viola. But and I was actually very specific I wrote out bowings and things because my idea was that it was going to be a piece um that classical musicians could play, but that sort of translates a lot of the um fiddle, bowing and fiddle rhythm. So I was very specific, for example, about putting the pulse sort of on the offbeat that often that you aim for in a polka things like that.
Speaker 2:But then you play it with someone like you, like we played it and you know it sounded 10 times better than I get whatever sound with classical musicians trying to play it, because there is just something that you sort of have to understand about the rhythm in order for it to really click. But it was. I wrote out this very detailed score with bowings and everything, and then I scrapped all that and I just wrote out the bare bones of the tune and gave it to you and Jim and just, and we messed around with it for an hour and recorded it. I.
Speaker 1:I'm really curious to see the version with the bowing, to see if I would bow it that way or if that is how it would be done, and then I was also.
Speaker 2:I was very particular. I was putting in different bowings for the three musicians because you know, classical bowing is all about being very synced and fiddle bowing. You know two fiddlers, you pick two fiddlers and they'll never bow this tune the same way and often you'll see bows going in different directions and things and I think that also adds to the sound. It kind of gives it sort of a smoothness and it's not too choppy or there aren't breaks between the notes where everyone is doing a certain bowing. Yeah, so I was breaking up doing all these bowings and being very specific, but again, it's funny. I mean, what I've learned from traditional music is that, um, because, as especially in modern composition, we tend to try to put as much as we can on the page, classical music, classical scores, are famous for being extremely detailed. You know it's not only the note that's written down, but it's the dinette, it's how loud to play, the note, the articulation, maybe a character marking, um, very, very, very specific.
Speaker 2:And I found with contemporary classical music that gets even more like these very intricate things that are written. And I find there's often sort of a more is more approach. People think the more they put down on the page, the more they'll get back, and I think folk music is such a testament against that that more is not always more, less is more. And actually I found that every time you put something down on a page, something else gets taken away, something else that can't really be put into words, and I think what traditional musicians understand is that they only capture what is essential, they're sort of the skeleton of the melody, but so much of what.
Speaker 2:Really what makes the music music is not written down. Really what makes the music music is not written down and what makes the music music can't be written down. And so I think, just learning to sort of pare down and write down less and to, I'd say, to trust the musicians, just work with musicians that you, that you trust and respect, and trust that they'll bring something to the music, that you don't have to put in every single thing, that you can kind of sort of give the tune as a gift, you know, to musicians and and you know kind of bequeath it to them and they take ownership of it and they do something with it. Someone else might do something else with it and the tune sort of takes on a life of its own kind of apart from you, and there's something really beautiful about that.
Speaker 1:I wonder how much of like I remember that fiddle just clicked a lot better with me than classical music. So I wonder how much of that was just visual overwhelm from what's on the page versus not. I'm like one of those people that I go into a secondhand store and I'm just like instantly overwhelmed and it just like we were in the secondhand bookshop and I was in Milwaukee last week and, um, like I love books but there was just like so many very, very little organized, just so much to look at and it's like I can't be able to focus on one thing.
Speaker 2:It's very clear yeah, yeah, when I was in Columbus last week I went to there's a bookstore that is 32 rooms I think it's the book loft or something and it was um, but every room is extremely small so it feels very big but also like a labyrinth. I felt a little bit like a lab rat in it because I got lost and was um, I had my fiddle on my back and was like bumping into everyone and um I was. I was about to run out of an emergency exit alarm. But, um, I, I love books. I I also I love sheet music, like I one of my favorite things.
Speaker 2:As a kid I loved going to music scores and music stores and just picking up books of sheet music and looking through them. Um, and I grew up, I love, um, the dover brand scores. I got all the you know, the beethoven symphonies, all the tchaikovsky symphonies, and there's something I love about music score. That was actually how I got into composition. I was playing in a high school band and I remember seeing the conductor's score. I just catched a glimpse of the piece we were playing, the conductor's score, and I remember like getting chills by seeing how every instrument was listed and it was like a bird's eye view of the music and I never really thought that was possible. And I just I remember going home and I downloaded a little notation software and was trying to write my own pieces. So I think the composer in me has always been attracted to that.
Speaker 2:But also, as I started composing more and more, I always struggled with getting what was in my head onto the page and I would try to write more, I would try to be so detailed, try to capture everything, and it just never really sounded like how I thought it would.
Speaker 2:And what's funny is is these slip polkas, I think more than any piece I've written. They're the least detailed in terms of the notes on the score, but it's the closest in terms of what was in my head getting out on the page. And I think that's the testament. You know, uh, traditional music, it is very highly defined, but because it's so highly defined you can have so much freedom and you can actually bring so much to the music. It sounds like a bit of a contradiction, but I think it's true. It's almost like the more you restrict yourself, the more free you are within that, if that makes sense. So I I feel like this piece. I've sort of found that sweet spot between, um you know, not having to micromanage everything but still writing music that has, you know um different things in it for different performers to, to explore yeah, I think it's very similar to like um.
Speaker 1:So matt grant definitely like he has boeing's written in some of his tunes like it hit the orange method book. But then at the end of that book there's the section where there's the tunes but they don't have any bowings. So you've learned some good bowing patterns in the first part of the book and then you can apply those or you can mix and match or come up with new bowings. And again, the same concept is to really free it, free up the space. So when I'm teaching my own students, I mean a lot of people come to me for bowing and they want very specific like, especially coming from the classical world.
Speaker 1:It's like I want this bow pattern, this bow pattern like what what bow pattern do I need to make it sound like a jig and it's like, well, you could do this one, or you could do this one or this one. You just got to mix and match and be able to, you know, make it all flow and just keep along with the rhythm, and you basically shape your phrasing with the bow and so yeah, it's just like a lot of mixing and matching and, again, that freedom of being able to apply whatever bowing you want.
Speaker 1:So I will give students specific bowings, because sometimes you just need a place to start and you need a pattern that's going to sound good if you follow it. It's going to get you kind of more like the dips with the slurs and all that, but then from there, it's like that's not the end goal, though. The end goal is for you to be able to do this bowing, but then also do another bowing and be able to make it still sound.
Speaker 2:Quote-unquote irish yeah, can you give me those bowing patterns, because I don't feel like I need them they're.
Speaker 2:Bowing is such a struggle for me it's and again, I think, because I didn't grow up playing violin, I I feel like I always had to think about which direction my, my bow is going and it sounds a little little. I will admit, I haven't gotten to the point where I you know, bowing is not automatic for me I still I'm sort of thinking down and up, down and up. I have certain patterns that I use, but again, I try to almost abstract them like certain patterns that can kind of be put in different combinations or can go anywhere. You don't need a lot it's. I have, you know, my couple of things I do in reels, a couple things I do in jigs, but even those I'm sort of trying to change up.
Speaker 2:I will say, sessions are a great place to just explore and play and have a play around with them.
Speaker 2:You know, playing a session is very different from performance. So when I perform I try to be very specific and have my bowing worked out, because there's nothing worse than that feeling where you feel like you're suddenly backwards and you're trying to get your bowing back in order, but in a session, I actually think a session is a good place to sort of almost push yourself to do bowings that feel backwards or wrong. And one of the things I teach a little fiddle class here and I have a couple of students even in a jig like the, the, the one of the simplest things I do is I just tell my students to just start a jig, up bow, um, you don't even need to do slurs, but just like one, two, three, four, five, six, cause I found that a lot of jigs have that natural, um, natural accent halfway through the bar instead of on the downbeat. And it doesn't work for every jig, but even that one thing, it feels a little counterintuitive to start up bow.
Speaker 2:But if you can start up bow and down bow and alternate something like that, things like that are great to do in a session and to play around and little things like that that just get you a great to do in a session and to play around, and little things like that that just get you a little bit out of your comfort zone. And then maybe I'll add in one slur you know I'll do one slur across the bar or something like that but I try to just add in little pieces here or there. But yeah, bowing is an eternal mystery to me, so I might not have a lot of a lot of bowing. Sage wisdom.
Speaker 1:Or maybe we'll go back to do 500 times with one bowing and then you can vary it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly, and I think, yeah, starting with a lot. All of my teachers started with a lot of single bows and then and then just maybe adding in like one slur here or there. One thing I did for myself, let's say for jigs, is, yeah, I would just basically play, you know, down and an up and down and and up, and that I would play that until it was easy, and then one specific spot I would put in one slur so I would switch like down and up and up and down and up and down, and I would. Then I would stay in that bowing for maybe an entire phrase until it was comfortable, and then I put in one slur which would sort of get me back to the down and up and and then down and then up. But I was always very deliberate about when I was sort of changing, kind of reversing the direction. That was something I did for a long time, especially in sessions with jigs. But I would stay in one bowing pattern for a long time until I really felt settled.
Speaker 2:I think sometimes the tendency is to try to change a lot, and now I do change a lot, but I remember I'd put a lot of time I actually haven't thought about this in a long time, but there was a long time and there was a decent amount of time for in sessions. I was doing that just to try to build in that consistency. But then, you know, try to play around with bowings at the same time. It's always like that tightrope that you have to walk where you want to play around with bowings. But also, you know, the most important thing is the tune and the rhythm, and the bowing is, should always be, in service of the tune and the rhythm. If the bowing is getting in your way, then sort of take it out, go back to the drawing board and put in something simpler.
Speaker 1:Yeah, change something up there. Yeah, I think one of the most fun things for me these days is actually I don't think a whole lot about my bowing so being able to actually slow down and reverse engineer it to explain it to somebody. It's actually a lot of fun to be like oh okay, so this pattern actually does really well. Like I just learned that I like to slur across the bar for thirds when you're going up, so like a third finger and a first finger, and I was wondering where that came from. And then I'm like well, I used to do a lot of double stop practices where I would play on the A string and then the E string and then I play A and E together for the double stop, but I would slur into that. So I'm like is that why I slur all these thirds when I'm crossing?
Speaker 2:strings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for a long time I was so scared of any slurred string crossing so I was almost like I would always change bow when I changed string.
Speaker 2:And now I'm trying to do that a little bit less because I like that feeling of slurring across the two strings.
Speaker 2:And um, and I was, I was talking with with my friend who's a wonderful classical violist and she was sort of helping me think about that sort of roundedness of a string crossing, of you play on the lower string, then you play on both and then you play on the upper, and how your arm sort of forms this kind of graceful round, whereas when you look at a string I think sometimes it can be very jerky because you think I'm on this string and now suddenly I have to go over to this string.
Speaker 2:But I think if you break down the motion it's more from what I understand, it's more of kind of like a rounded, smooth motion. The bow slowly moves to the other string. So I'm starting to kind of relish those in-between moments, those moves, the other string. So I'm starting to kind of relish those in-between moments, those little moments when it's on both, and I think that adds a lot of smoothness to your playing. If you imagine almost like a chord for a split second between where both strings are sounding, it can sort of add in a bit of a smoothness to the bowing.
Speaker 1:I think Liz Carroll does a lot of that with her style. It's just a lot of natural double stops that come in with the way that the tunes are just the note structures are written. So yeah. So final question for you this is the find your little podcast. So it's really about exploring what makes your unique style and sound within the Irish traditional sphere. So what would you say makes the Jack Hughes style? What's, what's your methodology or your influences, or anything like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say I had. I had an experience early on where I was actually like, had some tension in my hand. I was playing too hard, I was focusing in too much, trying to get the tune, and I had this feeling where I had to stop and I'd say, jack, there's no point in playing this music if you're not enjoying it, if you're not comfortable and happy while you're playing it. And once I put that at the forefront and then everything else takes a back seat. So basically, at the end of the day, all I care about is that I'm having fun playing the tune and my goal is to sort of convey that to the listener and everything else is secondary.
Speaker 2:I really believe I mean it's true of any music, but especially Irish music that there's, you know, there's no point in doing it if you're not having fun. And I think, the more that you can be excited by every moment of your playing, whatever that means to you, I think different players like me, being excited by every moment of playing is going to mean something very different than, you know, liz Carroll or someone who grew up in Ireland or someone who does this. So I maybe have to be a little bit more controlled at times, but I think that when you see a player who's just really going for it and just putting their all into a tune that's what we were joking earlier is that the Jack Hughes sound is playing extremely loud, at 90% tempo, with an aggressive kind of lilting swing in it, and I wasn't going to say a lot.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you're a powerhouse.
Speaker 2:Although I am with the Suzuki stuff I'm actually backing off a little bit. So I'm learning, I'm changing a little bit. So but I also grew up, I've been playing with all these accordion players. I'm always trying to compete with the accordion players and I love when they hit all these accordion players. I'm always trying to compete with the accordion players and I love when they hit those chords and those accents.
Speaker 2:I was I find I try to imitate the sound of an accordion a lot.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I would say, and I think what's so special, like I love a performer who really draws you in but doesn't feel like they have to do everything.
Speaker 2:So what I've learned from great performers I've listened to is that sometimes you know, changing one note can make all the difference.
Speaker 2:You don't have to put in some huge fancy variations.
Speaker 2:So I really I've lately I'm trying to do sort of a less is more approach and just present the tune with great rhythm, the best sound that I can, with that clarity where the tune sort of sings out, and put in these little details, that sort of attune the ear and they add, they add a lift and a feeling of aliveness, when when you just hear like one little note that can just change your perspective on how you hear a part of a tune.
Speaker 2:So I would just say, yeah, I just want to be one of those performers where you see them playing in the corner of a bar and they just put a lift in your heart by the way that they play and something about the performance just sort of sticks with you. So tall order, I'm not saying I do that all the time, but I say when I think of the performances that are meaningful to me, it's the performer left an impression, something about their playing just sticks with you, and especially when the tune you know you're lying in bed with your head on the pillow at night and the tune is still running through your head, then you know you've done a good job.
Speaker 1:Well, I'd say, having played with you, that you've certainly achieved that, and it's always a lot of fun getting to share tunes with you, oh thank you, likewise we'll have to do it again soon. It's hard um, I mean you're only what a couple, two hours away, I mean when we're meeting on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we have to do another um, another residency, residency sometime, or just hang out and play tunes, because nothing beats it.
Speaker 1:No, oh, and you've got my Patty O'Brien book too.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I'll get it back.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, no, you can have it, so you can go through all the tunes in there.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I will learn them for next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there you go. Well, thank you so much for being on the show, jack. This has been great.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:And that's a wrap on my chat with Jack. I had such a good time sitting down and getting to connect with him. We actually were realizing after the fact that usually the three of us me, him and Jim all hang out together and of course I've been friends with Jim for longer than we've known Jack, but we'd never actually sat down and had a conversation, jack and I together, for longer than a few minutes. So I think we did okay. I hope you enjoyed this chat and actually before I let you go, I wanted to share with you the set. Of slip.
Speaker 1:Pulp is that Jack wrote so an actual music audio clip here on the podcast and this is our take two from the day. So it's still a very rough, you know kind of considerate. You're in practice recording, so it's not polished or anything, it's just us getting together and learning some flip polkas of Jack's, and so this was our second time playing through it that we had recorded it anyway, and so I hope that you enjoy. We follow it with a tune uh, ned Kelly's. Ned Kelly is a great accordion player in Tipperary. Uh, has two Ned Kelly polkas to his name that I know of. Um, possibly more out there, but uh, we put this one on the end of it. So here are Jack's, slip polkas and Ned Kelly's to wrap up the interview here no-transcript.