Carl (00:14)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We wanna keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I am Carl. Thanks for joining us on the next instalment of Rugby Through the Leagues. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch with us on our social media platforms. As you've probably seen recently, we're on the road out and about.

We've obviously managed to make it to a few games. We've tried to do a few other little bits on the social media platforms by sharing games and where to watch them. So if you're enjoying that, please drop us a message on our socials just to let us know that's something you want to see in the future as well.

So some bits in these pre -recorded interviews.

may have played out as I mentioned with Joe's podcast last week which hopefully everyone really enjoyed. So we've still got all the questions that were thrown around but we also get the raw opinions that were of that time so some of the stuff might be outdated and results have played out however we still get to see exactly what they they thought at the time so this week we have managed to get on James Shanahan who's the director of rugby over at Blackheath Rugby Club.

who just before this pod goes out, I've just seen they've managed to secure their ground as well, which is brilliant. So they can now actually hopefully develop that club even further. So that'd be great to see in the coming years, because if you're following them on socials, they're racking some signings up this year. And that was why I reached out to James to sort of get him on and see what was going on.

really doing some good things over there. So this is going to be another belter. Shanners is also the Cambridge University coach for the varsity games, which I didn't know until I actually obviously went through with him and we managed to understand what happens there. And that's, that's another eye opener as well for them to have to throw things together such short notice as well. So that's brilliant to, to actually talk to him about there.

Shanners also had a great

in the championship level back in the And also managed to go over and play in Italy, which was great to hear and understand and see where that door opens eventually as well for him because that was apparently quite an eye -opener to the game over there as well and got to play with some great players.

I ain't gonna mess around anymore. the interview. Hope you enjoy

Carl (02:38)
Right, this time around we've got James Shanahan on director of rugby at Blackheath Rugby Club. I messaged James on LinkedIn because I kept seeing the amount of signings kept coming through so I thought we'd get a bit of an update of what's going on over there. James, you've got a pretty decent rugby journey to throw around from what I've looked into as well, mate. So for...

for them that are not enlightened. Do you fancy sharing where you've been, what you've done, what you've seen before you obviously jumped on the coaching and up to the DOR level?

Shanners (03:08)
Yep.

Yeah, I'll go from the beginning. Started from about the age of eight.

My dad took me up to Norwich Rugby Club, mini and junior section. Did my first session, didn't enjoy it. So following week, we went up to North Walsham about six miles up the road. And yeah, loved it. And then basically, yeah, that was my junior club. Yeah, throughout my career. And yeah, kind of influenced me massively.

as a player and as a coach. Probably one of my favourite times as a player when I started off my senior career. And I was lucky enough from there, I got recognised and picked up by Bedford Blues via a friend from Walsham who was best mates with Ben Whetstone at Bedford and managed to go to Bedford. Great time there. Probably one of my best rugby memories, probably the two seasons I spent at Bedford.

Just a proper rugby club. I just, yeah, I loved it.

Carl (04:15)
Was that when they were in the sort of the top division? Was that around that time period?

Shanners (04:18)
 it went actually when they were just got relegated, they're looking to rebuild in the championship or as it was called then National One. So I was there and then did two years at Bedford and then got an option to go down to Plymouth. They just got promoted kind of back to back promotions, under Graham Dawe and had some very really good players and they wanted to push on and that they were kind of hoping to.

Carl (04:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shanners (04:47)
you know, go beyond the championship, had a good financial backing, were looking to build a new ground. So I took up the offer to go to Plymouth. Unfortunately, it didn't really work out. Didn't see, I'd say my philosophy compared to Graham's and my philosophy were completely different. And it kind of wasn't really suited me as a rugby player, but you know, some great players there and I did enjoy it off the field. It was just the struggle on the field.

So we decided to part company, kind of went to Exeter under Ian Bremner at the time when they were kind of pushing in the top two with Worcester and Rotherham and did like 11 games there. And I kind of came in as a injury cover. They'd had two wingers that had got seasoned injuries, but they were on two year deals. So it was only ever going to be like a, yeah, basically a three month contract because they didn't have the finances the following year. But yeah, loved it.

It was a lot of fun. It was a strange one really. I played at 13, played quite a bit on the wing and I'm not known as a winger, that's for sure. I'm a fly half center, but I really enjoyed it. And then went down to Cornish Pirates. But yeah, kind of felt a bit isolated down there. Look, it is an isolated place, but just kind of, yeah, really struggled with it. But look, it's a great club, great people.

Carl (05:46)
Yeah.

I'll send it nowhere in it.

Shanners (06:05)
good bunch of players again, you know, but I had an option to go to Italy, which is, you know, I went over for a week to have a look at the Parma loved it. Just, yeah, so I spent the two seasons in Italy. And then basically, I was always thinking about player coaching. I was only 28 and I was probably thinking around about when I got to about 32 to look into the coaching aspect. I've always been...

very analytical and obviously as a 10, so you kind of have to be. So I was always that is something I wanted to do. I was looking at maybe doing another year or two in Italy. There was, I was having chats with Treviso and Calvisano but then a friend of mine called me who I played for at Bedford and said, look, I'm Cambridge are looking for a player coach. Do you know I mentioned you, would you be interested?

And I was like, okay, I'm not sure yet. I don't think it's quite right for me. But then the guy involved then, Jerry Otter gave me a call and said, look, when are you next back in England? And I said, well, I'm back in actually this weekend. So I met up with him, had lunch with him. He kind of sold me his plan, his dream, what he wants to do with Cambridge. And I knew about seven or eight of the players I played with at Bedford. So I kind of knew that I would have a good squad. It'd be a...

good bunch of players, good bunch of boys I'd get on with on and off the field. And kind of was like, actually, I'm going to go into player coaching early and give it a crack and did that and loved it. Had five years at Cambridge, got a couple of promotions, we just missed out, unfortunately, getting into the championship on points difference. Then the money man, Jerry, kind of moved on.

more to do with politics around the club than anything else. And I felt it was probably, yeah, I felt it was probably my time to probably move on as well. So I went to OAs. Again, another kind of challenge, always try and go to clubs where I feel I can improve the club and it's a bit of a challenge. It's something, you know, it's not just, not all about money, et cetera, but it's about kind of trying to build a squad, build a club and...

Carl (07:49)
Classic rugby.

Shanners (08:12)
hopefully leave it in a better place and kind of did that with Cambridge went to OAs kind of said, well, look, you know, they were currently in level five. And I said, well, I think we could get to level three. They kind of laughed and just didn't think of that. And I was like, look, you know, it's not going to cost any more money. We can keep the same budget. I just think we can get the best players around the local area. We can play the style of rugby. We can have a quality coaching that will attract players. And it's a, I know OAs a great club, you know, so.

you know, brilliant facilities. Obviously, Saracens use it as a training base, you know, it's a lovely pitch, great facilities and, you know, went there and, yeah, had some good times there, managed to get a couple of promotions again, which was brilliant. And then got the call from Plymouth about going into as a director rugby in the championship, which I always wanted to kind of get into the championship full -time rugby. I knew Plymouth would be a real challenge because it had the smallest budget in the league.

Carl (08:59)
Okay.

Shanners (09:07)
and it had been struggling for a couple of years. But I had good meetings with some good people there and felt it was worth a go. And had two seasons there. The first season really went really well. I managed to bring a lot of quality players from national leagues, and that's the league one and two, and bring them into the championship. And we managed to finish eighth, which is the highest position they ever finished in the championship, and got to the quarter -finals of the BNI Cup, which they'd never achieved before.

Carl (09:07)
Yeah.

Shanners (09:34)
But unfortunately, because our budget was so small that our better players that kind of had developed and started getting picked off. So, you know, I'm going to apply and offering him a new contract, say, for example, paying him 15 ,000 and he's got an offer from another club for 30. And there's like no way I compete. And I think, you know, we lost a couple of boys retired, but then we lost eight players to other clubs. And so it was another rebuild and I just...

Carl (09:42)
Yeah.

Shanners (10:02)
felt I'd be able to do the same again, get some good players in from student teams, National League teams, and unfortunately just didn't really work and left there at the end of the season. Under a bit of a cloud, me personally, but I felt I learned a lot as a coach and definitely developed a lot as a coach. Probably having more variety in my style of the game and how you could win games. Went back to OAs.

which was great and at the same time I was coaching Cambridge University as well. So I kind of have a double row, which I still coach Cambridge University now, but in my 11th year, yeah 11th Varsity coming up. Went to OAs, they just got relegated, got back into national one and then got a call from Blackheath and again felt like, yeah, a bit of a challenge. Kind of they wanted me to come in and kind of bring a culture.

Carl (10:33)
Okay.

Nice.

What?

Shanners (10:57)
into the club and into the squad. And, you know, our goal was to try and push for the championship. And we kind of had a five year plan. And we kind of got to year four and COVID hit. And I think we had, I think we got the squad finally that I think was good enough that would have been, I think, pushing for promotion. COVID hit and unfortunately, once COVID finished, we had lost 23 players. Just through basic retirement, relocation.

Carl (11:15)
Yeah.

Wow.

Shanners (11:27)
all of a sudden, their weekends, they kind of didn't want to do rugby anymore. And to get through COVID, the club also reduced the budget by about 50%. So we had less money, didn't have the players, we got a squad together, but it was very late. It was...

Carl (11:33)
NUH

 you in Nat one at that point? So you were...

Shanners (11:49)
Yes, that one and we were still kind of signing players in July, which is never, never ideal. You know, he went into that season where, you know, I felt we'd be okay. I thought it'd be a struggle, but I felt we were okay. Unfortunately, it was a real struggle and we got relegated. But the following season, we kind of discussed with the exec and stuff and kind of sold them that, you know, we'd call it the Renaissance, you know, the rebirth and.

We signed some good players. A few boys actually came back that had left. And we had a great year, got promoted back into national one last year, finished eighth, which I was a bit frustrated with. I think we, yeah, win three or four more games, you win that top five, which I think would have been a fair reflection, but I don't think we were consistent enough over the year. So yeah, so that's kind of, yeah, my journey.

to where I kind of am now. Yes, that's kind of, yeah, quite a few rugby, quite a few clubs, bit of a mixture as a player. And then I've been basically a player coach from the age of 28. And then obviously, I'm kind of just focused on the coaching for the last six, seven years. Yeah, so it's, yeah, that's kind of, yeah, my journey in rugby so far.

Carl (13:00)
That's amazing. So with Blackheath at the minute then, the target is the championship. Is that still the goal or is it a solid nat one now after the reassessment of the Renaissance, as you said?

Shanners (13:05)
Bye.

Well, the club's very ambitious on and off the field, which is good. The club's just currently buying the ground. So even though Blackheath's the oldest rugby club in the world, it's never kind of owned its ground. So they're in the process of doing that with Greenwich Council, Greenwich University, and that's going through and that should be hopefully all done and dusted this season.

Carl (13:23)
Okay.

Shanners (13:39)
which will be great and the club's got ambition to build on that site. A bit like a doncaster or a Coventry kind of a nice big corporate stand where you can have hospitality, big events and offices and other stuff. So it's ambitious. Maybe a bit like Rams have got that indoor little facility in the gym area, something like that as well. So the club's ambitious off the field. On the field, it's a difficult one really, in the championship.

What is the championship at the moment? No one really knows. Obviously, yesterday the championship clubs came out with a statement basically saying they're not going to agree the deal that's been put on the table to them.

Carl (14:21)
 they basically had the shotgun stuck to the head and they basically said sign it or you ain't getting nothing effectively.

Shanners (14:27)
Yeah, yeah, and that's, and the clubs at the moment are saying they're not going to sign anything and the RFU are saying, well, then they were moving from the league. So I don't, you know, it's not going to end well. You know.

Carl (14:34)
Hmm.

because they've basically got four million to share between all 12 teams. So I don't know how that adds up. It's 300, 300 grand and it's up for something like that.

Shanners (14:43)
Yeah, so about 300 ,000, yeah, still around your ground, which is obviously more than they get now, but it's a lot less than they used to get. But I think it's more than, that 300, I don't think is, I think it will be put into blocks of how you spend it and where you spend it. And I think the clubs are worried that they just financially won't be able to cope. Now, you know, one thing below the premiership, every club manages itself, you know, you know,

Blackheath, we have a budget, you know, and that's sustainable. And, you know, we won't go over that budget and let every other club obviously, Premiership is completely different. You know, it's they're making three or four million losses a year, each club. You know, so it's difficult because they don't want to push it. So if. The RFU put a proposal together that looks like a worthwhile effort to go to the championship, then Blackheath would be very keen.

would like to do it. If it's current proposal, then no, the club is not gonna financially risk itself for the RFU. So basically, we would then like to be a top four, Nat one club, that hopefully finishes top four regularly, good national one club. If, for example, I had a really good year and you finished top, then that's a different matter. You kind of see where you're at. I mean, it's...

Carl (15:39)
Okay.

not sustainable yet.

Shanners (16:07)
Maybe a bit like Cambridge a couple of years ago, I don't think they probably planned to get promoted in National one, but they did and fair play to them and they were outstanding that year. And they've gone into the championship this year and they've struggled to start with, but they got better and better. Now, if that happened, that happens, but ideally it would be going into the championship in a very financial, solid base and sustainable in a league that is vibrant and is supported by the RFU. I'm just not sure.

Carl (16:11)
Mm.

Shanners (16:36)
that league's ever going to happen. So, yeah, at the moment we want to be a top four club every year really and be a good national one club. And if the championship door is open and looks good prospect, then yeah, we'd like to be part of that.

Carl (16:38)
No.

So obviously if the prospect doesn't, so doesn't sort of appear like I don't think it will, I don't think the RFU want the championship. There's, this pod, this interview, we're a few weeks ahead of the release of this one anyway, so by the time this one comes out, there's potentially a bit of movement on the landscape potentially. However, the current landscape is they're offering 30 million to be shared between the 10 teams in the Premiership.

roughly 30, 35 plus TV money, et cetera, et cetera. Four million to be shared between 12 clubs in the championship. They've sort of teetered on the return of a promotion relegation model with a playoff, which isn't really gonna be sustainable because of the gap between most championship clubs at the minute and the premiership. However,

Shanners (17:21)
is 34 years from now. Yeah.

Yeah.

Carl (17:45)
There is obviously there's also rumours that the PIF are looking at investing into Premiership clubs, which is obviously the public investment fund in Saudi. And two of those four clubs that they're supposed to be putting money into are Gloucester and Newcastle. So the whole landscape stinks. Obviously, if you guys did say finish top next year, the deal has been forced through however they force it through, the RFU.

Shanners (17:54)
Yeah.

Carl (18:14)
whatever they decide to do to force it through because I don't think they're going to sit down and negotiate. If you guys say finish top next season, put yourself in the window. So in Spain, they've got the Division de honor A and the Division de honor B. So in the Division de honor B is their basically their championship version. Their federation, the federation over here is basically saying,

They've been told by 13 of the 16 clubs in Division de honor B that we don't want to be promoted. Even if they finish top and get promotion, they're not. Is that something that clubs below the championship are going to have to potentially review to ensure that they don't go pop at the sacrifice of this lunacy that's being run around at the top of the rugby?

Shanners (19:03)
I mean, yeah, potentially. I mean, I think it's, you know, I think it's a discussion you have as a club once you kind of, it's a possibility of being promoted. You know, you kind of go up and you enjoy your time there and you don't change anything. And, you know, it could be a season where you struggle on the field because obviously the gap and if you're not gonna make bigger signings and.

Carl (19:08)
Hmm.

Shanners (19:28)
put more money into it because you don't want to go financially bust then you could be just going up having a year of struggling and then coming back down. Is that fun? I'm not sure that you know it's tough you know you win what two or three games all season is that enjoyable after coming off a promotion high but you know will those players you know will they want to deserve kind of the ability to have a crack and have a look at it and you know.

That's the other things. I think it'd be an open discussion, but I think a lot of clubs would have to think hard about it unless they had the ability, they had a bit of money in the bank or they had something where they felt, well, actually we can invest another couple hundred thousand. It's not gonna break us as a club. We've got that nest egg. But I don't know how many clubs have got that, unless you've got an individual backer. We don't have Blackheath, which...

Carl (20:20)
Yeah.

Shanners (20:24)
good and bad because obviously you know if you had somebody put a two or three hundred thousand in you've got more money but if they disappear then you're in a lot of trouble so you know

Carl (20:29)
disappears off, yeah.

And there's probably not many players that will want to come over for a 12 -month contract to see if it's going to get extended if you stay as well. That's probably the landscape.

Shanners (20:41)
 the thing. I mean, you can have clauses, obviously, where you know, if it was a two year deal, first year, second year, if you get relegated, you know, and it goes back to this. So, you know, there's ways around it. I mean, at the moment, to be honest, most teams, most players in the championship only sign one year contracts anyway. You know, there's not many that are signing two year deals, you know, unless you're an Ealing of the world. And I know know Doncaster well looked after. I mean,

Carl (21:07)
Yeah.

Shanners (21:10)
Pirates at the moment are offering kind of contracts to basically the end of the year, not even the season, and backing that they will find more money in investment, and they're very confident of it, but what they don't wanna do is not, if that doesn't happen, that the club disappears in January. So I mean...

Carl (21:27)
 a statement the other day, didn't he? He basically said, I've got investments out here, I'm on my exit plan. However, until the RFU enlighten us and the investors of how this is going to move forward, I can't pour any more money in and nobody's willing to invest into something that might not go anywhere. So...

Shanners (21:47)
No, and I think the problem is the RFU kind of showed their cards, haven't they, with Premiership Rugby? This is it, this is what you're getting. Take it or leave it, and it won't change. And yeah, it'd be interesting to see how many of those 12 clubs stay, you know, don't take the RFU offer. Yeah, how many of them will actually just, you know, yeah, have to cave in that, because, yeah, but hopefully it doesn't come to that, I don't know. I mean, I...

Carl (22:05)
in the championship. Yeah.

cave and roll over.

Shanners (22:17)
I don't know what the championship clubs do want. I don't think that's been open or discussed really. But yeah, obviously what they're being offered at 300 ,000 isn't what they feel is enough, which you kind of understand. I suppose it's also difficult for the RFU that they kind of feel that the model doesn't work, but a number of championship players have gone on to play Premiership or play for...

play for the international team. I mean, there's lots, but then the RFU could think, they could be saying it doesn't work, but in there, but they actually know it does work and, but they'd have to invest anything into it. Cause it's happening. It's working currently without being invested into. They asked for prep. They were still making premiership players in the championship. There's still Academy players that are doing really well in the championship. You look at, well, you look at your Ampthill who've got a lot of Saracens players. Okay. You look at London, Scottish with your Quins boys, obviously Pirates have got Exeter boys, you know, it.

Carl (22:54)
Yeah.

Shanners (23:10)
it's working without anyone having to spend any extra money. So if you're sitting there going, well, why should we? And that's the difficult thing, isn't it? If it really wasn't working, then I suppose the championship clubs wouldn't have a leg to stand on and the RFU could say this is the best offer we can do, but it kind of is working. Unfortunately, the Chambers.

Carl (23:15)
Yeah.

As you say, are the championship clubs just basically extended development squads? Are they having to pay for the loans? Are the loans being subsidised by the clubs in the premiership?

Shanners (23:35)
Pretty much, yeah.

 think it all depends on the different clubs. I think there'll be very good deals. For example, when I was at Plymouth, we had some boys from Exeter and Rob Baxter from Exeter were really good and they didn't want huge amounts of money for those players. They wanted those players playing Championship. They wanted them experiencing that level and trying to be the best they can be in the Championship, knowing that if they do that and they do really well, they've got every opportunity to be a Premiership player. So...

Carl (23:44)
the player and the agreements and stuff.

Tom. Yeah.

Shanners (24:09)
I'd imagine most clubs, premiership clubs, aren't asking for a fortune. I think it's a, look, developing, knowing how beneficial it is to develop their players for a season, say in the championship or two, that they then can kick on and be premiership rugby players. Because obviously with budgets being so tight in the premiership, with restrictions and salary caps and with the money and stuff, they need to be developing within and spending less money that way than them.

bringing players in from elsewhere and spending six -figure contracts and stuff. So, yeah, I think the Premiership Clubs are probably pretty good with what they're doing for the Championship Clubs. Northampton as well with Bedford. So there's a lot of examples. Yeah.

Carl (24:53)
Yeah, but is that the club, do you think that's the clubs doing it off their own back or is that the clubs being forced into that with the RFU behind the scenes that send these players out or is it just agreements that they've got in place?

Shanners (25:02)
I think that's championship clubs and championships are having good relationships and you know knowing that it's going to be beneficial both ways. You know and a lot of those championship clubs if they didn't have that influx of players would probably struggle you know they because they would have to find players from elsewhere and would have to pay them probably more. I would say they'll probably pay players more than their own players and they will be having to play for these lone players so I think it's a two -way street and I think you know...

Carl (25:20)
talent from nowhere. Yeah.

Shanners (25:31)
it works pretty well at the moment, which probably again makes the RFU sit there and just sit there and go, well, it's working. Why should we invest anything?

Carl (25:41)
It's working, they're getting games, but there's no growth model, is there? There's no progression past that being a development vessel for the Premier League and whether they think that's the golden goose. But even in that, you can't be running Premiership clubs at a £4 million a year loss. Maybe that's where, or £3 million a year, or whatever it is at the minute, maybe that's where that additional funding is just to plug that gap, to make them all look like they're breaking even, just to sort of cover the gaps at the minute. So...

It's quite a disappointing state of affairs for growth, but we've had a recent, recently had a couple of lads on that played at Worthing. So obviously they were Nat Two so Matt McLean and Liam Perkins have both been on and they obviously had a link with Quins So most of their introductory, like their first year Academy lads have come through and they, they're obviously, there's a, there is a path that they obviously come through, but.

Have you guys got a link with a direct club or?

Shanners (26:39)
 really. I mean, we're kind of a little bit in isolation now. Yeah, because we're, you know, our closest really is probably Saracens, but that's still, you know, an hour, hour and a half. And also, you know, Sarries got a great link with Ampthill You've got OAs on their doorstep. So it's pretty got Bishop Stortford just down the road. So, you know, we have had, you know, a couple of players from Sarries, you know, to be honest, it's usually Ealing is kind of.

Carl (26:41)
in the arson, yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (27:07)
where we've had some lone players before. Yeah, getting pretty well with Wardy. Obviously known him since he's been at Ealing, which is a long time. So yeah, we get players occasionally from there. Last year, we didn't really work out. There wasn't any room in our squad and they needed some boys. But yeah, previous years we've had boys, you know, that...

Carl (27:09)
Okay.

Shanners (27:33)
three or four players a year that have come from Ealing on loan So, but yeah, there isn't really a loan club for us. Obviously it was Wasps back in the day when they were, you know, in London. But yeah, we're kind of just on that edge of, yeah, no one really around or near us. But, you know, I'm not massively stressed about it. It'd be great to maybe have a loan club, but also, you know, it's a lot easier managing your own players than trying to manage your loan players and your own players.

as well.

Carl (28:01)
I was going to say, do you have obligations that they've got to play a certain amount like in football? Have they got to play a certain amount of games or?

Shanners (28:05)
Not really, no. I mean, look, if you get a lone player in and you agree to it, there is probably an expectation they're going to be playing rugby. So there's no point getting a lone player in and then not playing him. Because the premiership clubs, what they want, you understand it, they want to develop those players. There's no point coming to Black Keith and not playing because they could send them to the level below. They have, at the moment, I think you could be lined up to four clubs. So, you know.

Carl (28:17)
a bit of squad boat booster sort of thing.

Shanners (28:34)
For example, Sarsens would have a player that could be at level five and then they've got an option for level four club if he's doing really well or a level three club and they just move up that pyramid. You know, there's and if he's not getting game time at level four, then maybe level five is a level four options. Yeah. Yeah. So there's no obligation. You're never told, look, well, I've never been. I wouldn't agree to it. But I've never been told you have to play this guy. But if I ever get a lone player and it's because we need him, it's not because.

Carl (28:47)
dropping back, yeah.

Shanners (29:02)
I'm just doing it for fun and having an extra body because that's, there's no point for me.

Carl (29:04)
Yeah.

No, that's fair enough. So obviously, by the sounds of it, it's a big challenge for recruiting in and around, probably Nat one, Nat two. As you said, a diverse player pool that you've either got to put your hand in your pocket or you reach on players from loan. You guys have managed to get quite a few over the line so far. How many got through the door now? I lost track, to be honest, mate. It's...

Shanners (29:31)
So, so, so, so,

Every player wants to play first team, you know, and you understand that. And our model as well with how we pay people is you get paid to play in the first team. You know, you get rewarded for being playing in the first team and winning in the first team. OK, so again, and there's a lot of clubs around the area in Kent that are in and around National League rugby. So you can have TJs or Canterbury, you know, pick up or Westcombe Park now.

pick up a couple of players that say are just on the fringes of the first team, but not playing every week and then being paid a couple hundred quid a game. And that player knowing that he can go and pick up a couple hundred quid a game, or he could sit in our squad and play a handful of first games for a couple hundred quid, but then be playing the second team all year. So it's a real difficult balance. So last year we had, obviously like I said, the second team, but we kind of, we probably ran a second team when it was about a squad of about 40.

And that's really difficult because obviously you've got 20 players involved in the first team. If you then have another 20 for the second team, that's your 40. Now, at any time, there's gonna be about 20 % of your squads not gonna be available for injury or other factors in life. So straight away, you've lost eight players. So all of a sudden, the second team is struggling and we've got a social team, Black Heath the Bandits that play in like level 10, I think. And we were like,

Carl (31:14)
Mm -hmm.

Yep. Yep.

Shanners (31:25)
having borrowing players from them if they were, you know, if they didn't have a game, which was obviously a struggle. Yeah, not for the fantasy, but for the second team, which was a struggle because then you've got probably a handful of second team boys want to be in the first team. And then you've got these bandits boys that are great lads, brilliant, brilliant people, brilliant club people that just want to play a bit of rugby. And they're probably going, my God, I'm now playing at this level. And so the key was to try and this season was recruit.

Carl (31:28)
What, not for the first team are they? They're getting razz on each other.

Shanners (31:52)
as many players we could regarding the whole first team and second team. So, yeah, we've signed a lot of players. I mean, I think we're currently in about, in around about 50 odd players, 55 player mark, like currently in, but that's gonna be running two squads. And like I said, you're gonna have, realistically, you're gonna have a first team squad probably of say 30 key players. Then you've probably got another eight or nine boys that could play in the first team and help you.

And then we've probably got a good 15, 20 boys that just want to play a good second team boys and happy to play second team. So it's getting that balance. So yeah, we've made a lot of signings. But yeah, it's kind of was needed so we could bolster our squad and have more depth from competition. It will be tough managing that because obviously having 50 odd players, you know, and only having two teams will be a challenge. And that's one that myself and the other coaches are going to have to

Carl (32:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (32:48)
work really hard to make sure we could please everyone, so to speak, and keep everybody. But that's not going to happen. But we've got to work as hard as we possibly can for that because that just, I think, the bigger squad you have and the more competition just boosts the ability to hopefully perform in the first team in national one.

Carl (33:06)
So what divisions year two's knocking around in?

Shanners (33:09)
 we're not in a RFU league, we're in the raging ball league. So play the other kind of second teams in national one. So you've got Richmond, Rams, Bishop's Stortford, Chinnor Ampthill Wimbledon last year, Dorking Yes, all those second teams.

Carl (33:15)
Okay.

well, okay.

They're actually getting a run out of players that are in or around the same level, so it's not like they're having to drop down to level five or six just to get game time.

Shanners (33:36)
 other problem. The highest level you could would have been level seven. And that's just not a good enough level. That's plain and simple. Whereas if, say, you play against Ampthill and you're at your strongest and they're at their strongest, it'll be a level four game. Ampthill were putting out boys that had played, were playing championship rugby.

Carl (33:46)
Nah.

Shanners (34:04)
And if you look at Rams as well, Rams and Bishop Storford always got good second teams. And again, you know, there'd be, I think when we played against Rams, our second team, I mean, Rams had three or four players that the week before were playing in the first team and they were like long -term first team players, not just, you know, a hundred or games each for the first team. So it's very competitive, but then you do get days where obviously there is a lot of injuries, unavailability, and then the level isn't as good, but that's second team rugby. So...

Carl (34:30)
Yeah.

Shanners (34:33)
But I think, hopefully with the squad we've got, we'll be stronger than we were both teams, which means we can be more competitive in national one and in the raging bull.

Carl (34:44)
So as you said, you bring players in on sort of pay as you play in the first team model. So some of the lads that you've probably brought across or some of the lads you've got there currently, does the club sort of support them with jobs outside of the club to sort of as part of the deal? Okay.

Shanners (34:58)
 there's only so many jobs around and that's, yeah, we're kind of, obviously we've got a couple of profiler players. We've got guys that are kind of coming out of university that want to still play at good levels. We've got a couple of boys that have come out like the Ealing Academy, Brunel, highly recommended, highly, you know, got a lot of talent and still only 21.

They want to see where they can go or they want to work and then play rugby. Then you've got someone like Jordan Burns, who's obviously played six years at Ealing, I think it is, and Bedford and a few other clubs. And, you know, he he wants to start a career. So, you know, it's him to get him get him a career and then play rugby still at a good level. And that's kind of the mix we're trying to get. Obviously, there's a lot of players already based around London anyway, so you don't have to work with jobs and stuff.

Carl (35:24)
Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Shanners (35:54)
and then you'll see a lot of players we've already got at the club that have been there for a number of years. So we're kind of a, yeah, we try and help with employment and stuff and help them with career paths and where they want to go. So we've probably got seven or eight players like that in the squad that we've helped with. So yeah, we're kind of a bit of a mixture.

Carl (36:14)
Okay, so the lads that you said obviously that have come out of the university sort of Ealing Academies and stuff, and they've still got ambitions to probably make it, to back up the league, are they actually still in the shop window? Are they thinking they're in the best position possible available? Or have they had to sort of step out of the shadow, rebuild and then go back into an academy? Or?

Shanners (36:37)
and

Carl (36:44)
Are they at the point that they're lost to the cause?

Shanners (36:47)
I mean, you probably have to ask them in the sense of where they feel they are, but I feel, for example, the two boys I've got from Ealing, they live in Essex, so they're only half an hour away from Blackheath. So it's kind of, they knew obviously Will Davis, he was coaching at, plays and coaches at Blackheath, but he was also coaching at Ealing as well. So they knew him, so that was the link basically. Yeah, I think they still want to play a good level. Now,

Carl (36:51)
Hmm.

Shanners (37:14)
I think in their heads, they feel obviously playing national one is a good level, which is, I don't think they are worried about trying to play in the championship and, you know, earning not a lot of money. And I don't think they probably feel they're going to be in that Premship window. So I don't think they're worried about that. I think they're kind of focusing on getting a career, getting work and it's still playing a good level. And then if, for example, a Blackheath gets promoted into the championship, then they get the opportunity to play in that professional league. But I don't think they are.

Yeah, they're kind of worried about being a for not being in a shop window, so to speak. I mean, they just want to play some good rugby in a good club and enjoy what they're doing while working on this working as full time.

Carl (37:46)
Okay.

Are there many sort of scouts that float around in your sort of game to see if there are any gems that have fell out of, that were missed? We had Matt McLean on the other week who saw Joe Launchbury hunched over the team bar, signing the registration papers and not thinking he was too much. And then 20 minutes into his first game said he was going to get capped for England. So, but obviously he...

Shanners (38:07)
No. Yeah.

Carl (38:25)
fell out of the system, ended up at Christ College, managed to get to Worthing, got sent off to Wasps due to a call from, I think it was Will Green the coach at the time, so he had linked back to Wasps. Is that pretty much the only way that lads may get re -put back in the model, or is there a player pathway for players that might have taken a bit longer to hit their prime?

Shanners (38:37)
definitely is.

Good.

I mean, maybe not in national one, so to speak, but I think obviously in the championship there is, there's a lot of players that have maybe been missed or, but then they're getting picked up three or four years later. I wouldn't say we have scouts or anything like that coming along. If there's any young players that are going well for us and they ask me, they would like to play at a higher level, then I've got links and networks that I would happily make those kind of phone calls and say, look at this guy, or are you looking for any?

Carl (38:54)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Shanners (39:16)
winger or a fullback or he's worth looking at and then it's up to them and the player to sort things out. I'm always happy to do that, which I've done before at previous clubs. When I was at Cambridge and when I was at OAs as well, Bedford usually being the team that they were kind of getting sent to, we're looking at and I had told them about that player. So, obviously it was close by.

Yeah, so I don't think they're scouts or I don't think they'd be missed if they are, say, tearing up trees and I think they'd get picked up then by a championship club. For example, I don't know, was it the Rams winger, Charlie Robson, who had an outstanding season at Rams was carving teams apart and he's been picked up by Coventry now. And I'm sure the way Coventry play in their style of rugby, I'd imagine he's going to

Carl (40:08)
okay.

Shanners (40:12)
do pretty well there. And I know there was a couple other clubs were looking at him and I Bedford phoned me about him. And I said, yeah, he's definitely worth a, worth a punt and worth a look at because he is raw, but he's very talented. So I do think there is, if you're doing well, that you won't, you won't be ignored. You'd be seen by someone and you'll, you'll get picked up.

Carl (40:33)
So that's usually down to sort of connections and people dropping a message and stuff like that. There's no active scouting program going back up and down the leagues.

Shanners (40:38)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as you know, like I said, I've got to Ben Whetstone, who's kind of the recruitment guy for Bedford Blues, who I'm friends with. He will phone me up, probably speak two or three times a year, maybe a bit more. And he just like, is there anyone, you know, we're looking for, say, a second row, anyone you've seen in national one you reckons worth it. And I'll be like, right, let me have a think. I'll get back to you. And I might send him a couple of play it and say, look, look at these boys.

And then who can go and watch, you know, you can watch the games on the elite hubs. You can go and go and watch them live or whatever. You know, or they're looking for a 13 or something like that. So I'm sure there's other directors of rugby that have been called by other clubs and have similar, yeah, kind of similar deals really or similar conversations.

Carl (41:24)
Do you think the boom in Veo being used within clubs has helped put people in the window in that sense? It's easy to get the access and send it across, as long as the club they played for have got that set up, it's easy to send any detail over.

Shanners (41:41)
 elite hub anyway with the RFU has been going on a while. So every club's had to video their games anyway for, I don't know, good 10 years or so now. So I'm not sure Veos made a huge difference. I mean, Veos made a difference and it's convenient and easy. You know, you just stick it up and away it goes. I'm not a huge fan of it, to be honest. Yeah, it doesn't cover the action enough for me. So we have our own...

Carl (41:47)
Bye. Bye.

Okay.

Shanners (42:07)
person who does the video work and stuff. But I think it's a really good tool, especially for training, it's a good training tool and I think it's very good also for the team, just it's simple, you stick it up and off it goes. So yeah, I think that is beneficial. But all the games have pretty much, yeah, they've been online on the Elite Hub for the last, I think 10 years, if not longer actually, I think since about, might be since 2010, I think. So good, nearly 15 years where you...

Carl (42:10)
Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Shanners (42:36)
Yeah, everyone's pretty much had access to be able to watch games anyway.

Carl (42:39)
So now you've been coaching a little while. From looking from how you coach and stuff, what was the biggest issue when coaches previously? Do you think coaching has progressed or do you think there's some that are still stuck in their ways? Do you think rugby's progressed and obviously the younger coaches come through have brought certain different methods?

Shanners (43:06)
Yeah, I definitely think, I mean, I mean, the games moved on for every, every facet on and off the field, coaching wise, playing how you play players physique, you know, and I mean, it has moved on massively how professional it is across the board. You know, and I include that in national leagues, you know, more analysis and, and the ability to analyze and...

and more coaches and yeah, so I think it's definitely the games improved overall. Are the coaches still setting their ways? I don't think so. I think most coaches I know are trying to evolve and try to improve, want to be better. You're gonna get different, you know, I come from, you know, so to speak, I started in the amateur era into the professional era. So a little bit of a mixture and.

I've evolved in how I coach as well. When I was a player coach, it was probably because I was a fly half in the player coach, it was just basically, this is what we're doing, this is how we're doing it, follow me because I could run it all. Obviously, when you come out as a player coach and then you've got someone else to do it, then you need to have more buy -in from the players. You probably need more input from the players. And I think I have a bit of a mixture of that. I will tell.

Carl (44:07)
Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (44:21)
what I want happened, but I will also ask players for their opinions and develop it with the players. But it also depends on what path of that squad, where it is on its journey. Because there's no point in having say, like when I first went into Blackheath for example, if I first went into Blackheath, you've got 35 players, 35 opinions. If I sat there and let the players run it, it's gonna be chaos. So there is a time when you go in there and go, right, this is what we're doing, this is how we're doing it, bang.

Carl (44:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

listen to.

Shanners (44:49)
and you keep pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing to the point where you're like, here we go, we can pull now. We can let the players start to take over and you just guide them. But if you, I don't believe you go straight into a club and you just let the players do what they want to do and how they, I just, yeah, I don't believe in that. And I think we do, there is a stigma about certain things with coaching and that if you tell people what they should be doing and.

Carl (44:56)
Yeah.

Shanners (45:19)
this day and age, people don't like to be told what to do. Well, I disagree, you sometimes have to tell them. And it's, like I said to the players, never ever personal, this is what I feel would be better for the individual, better for the team, and overall, you know, which is better for the squad. So I think it's getting that balance. By defending, yeah, it depends what journey, where you are in your journey. So for example, like when I do Cambridge University, so like last season,

We had Jamie Benson, really talented fly half, but Quins, he was on his last year and he had a couple of years of varsity and we evolved and we changed a few things, but I tried to get more of his input because I wanted him to run the team. I wanted him to be the leader, he's gonna be the fly half, so I kind of wanted to push him into doing that. So he would do more in the meetings, he would have an input in how we played and what we wanna do.

and I just guide him. Whereas next year, we've got a new fly half coming into Cambridge University. So that would be more, I'll be developing him and pushing him, okay, to the point when then he can hopefully eventually take over. But that might take a year or two years. In the university season with Cambridge, obviously it's based on one game, but it's a 10 week block and then it's a six week block into a varsity and a one off game. So you've only got a very limited time. It's not like you've got,

whole season and 26 games, you've got 10 weeks with six games and then six weeks with four games. But at the the of the day, those games don't count for anything unless you perform on the day in the Varsity game So yeah, that'd be, so that's a different journey for that player, for that team. So then I will manage it differently. Basically, depending on where we are in that, with that team in that journey and where we're looking to go.

Carl (46:55)
Yeah.

So with the varsity stuff in Cambridge, do you coach, do they play normal uni rugby and then are you part of that system or are you in there for the varsity game? Like University of Portsmouth, they've got a team in the league that play week in, week out. Is Cambridge set up the same way? No.

Shanners (47:28)
 no, don't don't. We couldn't do that. Cambridge University is an academic university plain and simple and academia doesn't really care about sport. OK, so we would have no ability to run in a a Bucks, say, top league and players be able to disappear all day Wednesday, every Wednesday, just.

Carl (47:55)
Yeah. Bye.

Shanners (47:57)
Would it be possible? So we basically we have a like I said, we have a 10 week period in the first term and we will play on Wednesday nights 7 730 which is and always play at home. We very rarely play away because again getting availability and players available and be able to get away from lectures and Supervisions and you know, we've got medics. We've got vets, you know, and they're working at hospitals, you know, they're working from 8 till 6 and then rocking up.

Carl (48:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (48:27)
training or you've got guys are doing PhDs or in a lab from eight till six and you know trying to find cures for cancer and stuff and you know they're rocking up they yeah it's about academics but they still want to play some rugby and play a good level of rugby so no we don't we just basically have friendlies as you put it and we will have you know we'll play against like you know your Richmond, Richmond Rams, Bishop Stortford so we play like their second team stroke.

Carl (48:54)
still still a top good level.

Shanners (48:55)
bit of a stronger team if they can, depending on how their league season is. We play then the Armed Forces, so we play the RAF, the Army, Navy, British Police sometimes. Then we have Invitational sides, so we've got the Mickey Steele Bodger game, which is basically like a barbarian style game and usually it's made up of National League players. We play the Crochets, which is obviously the Invitational Welsh team. We play Durham University, we play Trinity College.

Dublin, which is always a great game. They're a great team. So that's kind of, yeah, we play a lot of good games, good quality games. We play Cambridge as well. So, and then that'll lead us into the Varsity game in March, basically.

Carl (49:41)
So how do you have to adapt that? As you said, so your first choice fly half obviously he's finished now. So do you then pick somebody that's in the first year to develop or do you try and, that must be quite hard to, as you say, once you get to the end of a three year period for a player that's probably been, you build around, do you have to restart in the middle and then every couple of years, that must be.

quite hard as a coach to do over a period of the time as well.

Shanners (50:09)
 basically, so for example, every year I will lose 50 % of my squad. And also, we don't know what's going to apply and be accepted. So, you know, for example, my first ever varsity was 2012. And when I rocked up in September, we didn't have a recognized fly half. We had three scrum halves.

Carl (50:18)
Right. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Shanners (50:39)
And I was like, okay. I was like, right, any one of you want to play 10? And they all kind of looked around at each other. I said, have any of you played 10? None of them have played 10? I was like, right, okay, well, I'm gonna pick one then. So I picked one. Rue Abraham, yeah. So basically it was a nine, but played him as a 10 and had to develop him over that period. So that happens and again,

We might be looking for a second row need a second row. For example, at Cambridge University, we're always looking for props. Never have any props. Props don't seem to apply for Cambridge University. So then it'd be a conversation. We get to September, or maybe before that, and it might be a back row player that we recognise. Say a six that's six foot two, 16 stone. Decent back row player, but he's probably never gonna play in a varsity. So you pull him aside, and you sit there and you go, do you fancy a phone?

Carl (51:35)
free stone on for me.

Shanners (51:36)
 playing prop? And he sits there and goes, no. And I'm like, do you want to play varsity? And he's like, yeah, of course I do. I went, well, you're going to have to play prop because you won't get on as a back row player. Have a think about it and then let me know. And then usually, because they're very analytical and they overthink things, I usually have a text message going yeah, okay, I'll give it a crack. So, you know, at Cambridge University, the last four or five years, I would say,

Carl (51:45)
Yeah. Wow.

Shanners (52:04)
75 % of the front row of being back row players that we've had to convert into props. So you talk about, yeah, challenges, but that's a good thing about it. It's a different squad, it's a different squad every year, there's different challenges, and it's all about one game. So you kind of have a little bit of, you have basically a long pre -season for one game, because obviously, you know, normally you get eight weeks pre -season, so then you've got 26 games, okay? And obviously those games all count.

Carl (52:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (52:32)
but you've got 26 games and you've got to build up. Whereas, yeah, at the university, like I said, you've got 10 weeks where you have six, maybe six or seven games, six games usually, and then you get six weeks where you get four games, then it's all about one game. But it's basically, you could win your 10 friendly games, so to speak, and lose the varsity, and that's all anyone cares about. Or you could win them the other way around and win the varsity. So it's all about that one game. So it's...

Carl (52:50)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Shanners (53:00)
It's basically a long pre -season. It's just little steps building up. And that's how we do it with the games as well. So we might go into our first game, usually we go into our first game, we might have had three training sessions. I've got a new squad of players, say 25 players, we've had three training sessions, we're playing Durham University, we've had a 10 week pre -season. So we're gonna be massively undercooked and we're gonna struggle, which we usually do. But.

Carl (53:00)
Yeah.

Well, okay.

So you don't give them like an easy game. You don't sort of call up a level 10 and just say, let's get a game of game against.

Shanners (53:30)
No, I mean, there's a little bit of politics to it as well, why it's a Durham or someone, because, you know, potentially Durham, obviously there are boys we've had from Durham that have finished at Durham and then came and done a course at Cambridge University and stuff. So there is that, those kinds of links as well. So yeah, we have three training sessions. So I'll implement two or three things in our attack, maybe two or three things in our defence, and then boys go out and play, like, it doesn't matter.

Carl (53:44)
Bye.

Yeah. Yeah.

Shanners (53:59)
And then the following week it'd be like, right, this is what we're gonna implement this week. And so you build it up until hopefully you get to about maybe two games out and you're pretty much there. And then you just, then hopefully everything's implemented. You've got two games of warmup to kind of go for everything. Then you've got the Varsity game So it's just like a long pre -season, but it's enjoyable. It's completely different to a club environment and the players as well. Obviously because they're highly intelligent.

Carl (54:09)
Yeah.

Shanners (54:29)
there's a lot more questions. There's a lot more, explaining why we're doing things and not in a disrespectful way. They're not sitting there. Why are we doing this? I are just, they're just intrigued and going, okay. And once you explain it and you tell them when they, and they take it very quickly and they'll be like, okay. So they might be not as skillful as say some players in national one, but they pick things up a lot quicker. So you can probably move a lot faster in their development and how you want the team to play.

Carl (54:36)
No, as you said, they're fully analytical.

Shanners (54:58)
than you can within a club side.

Carl (55:01)
Does that work for the players that you've got to retrain their position as well? Does that help that? Because obviously a lot of players that if you try to do that in certain other leagues in rugby, you're probably looking at a season before somebody can probably pick that up properly, potentially.

Shanners (55:13)
Yeah, they do. We make sure we've got quality coaching and quality coaches and they've got that environment as well, so they can. But also, they're all so geared up for the varsity, they want to put everything into it. So they pretty much more or less become a, without being a full -time rugby player, more or less full -time, they will be in the gym three, four times a week. They'll have two rugby sessions, maybe three rugby sessions, plus a game.

Carl (55:26)
Right.

Yeah.

Shanners (55:39)
they'd be doing that on the side of as well, doing all their studies and stuff and living a student life as well. But they are all geared up and very motivated. I mean, there's probably not many people that go to Cambridge or Oxford who aren't motivated because it's not exactly an easy place to get into, or either of them. So, yeah, so they develop definitely quicker and it's a challenge, but it's a really enjoyable one. And once you get over the...

Carl (55:55)
Yeah.

Shanners (56:07)
the fact they're going to ask lots of questions, you can see their brains are just literally ticking as you're talking. You know, like robots, just computing it, all of it. But yeah, always, yeah, a good bunch of guys and yeah, it's always enjoyable. And yeah, lucky enough, I've done 10 of them and I've, you know, got another one coming up next year in March.

Carl (56:11)
Yeah, yeah.

How many won then? Out of the ten.

Shanners (56:29)
We are at 50%. Yeah, 50 -50. So, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, there's been a couple of tough losses. Probably two games I think we should have won and we didn't, but there's been three games where, yeah, I felt we were always going to struggle and we just don't know on the day. You know, this year was a great year. We got a history record win, you know, 55 -11, which I didn't see, I thought we'd win, but I didn't see that.

that outcome. But then next year, like I said, we've got 50 % of the squad have gone. So you just, yeah, you don't know, you just take every game, every season as a different season, a different challenge. But no, it's an enjoyable one, that's for sure.

Carl (57:03)
Yeah.

I know you're probably not allowed to say it out loud, but do you get to the start of the season and then you see some of them turn up and you think, we're absolutely fucked this year, we've got no hope, or do you think actually you're already lifting the trophy and you're ready at the start of some seasons?

Shanners (57:28)
No, I mean, if you saw the WhatsApp group that I've got myself, my Director Rugby and my other coaches on it, usually about mid September, there'd be some comment from me going, my God, we are. And then my Director Rugby reminds me and goes, you say this every year, but you always manage to get the team together and by the time we get there. And I'm like, I know, but yeah, can we not have a year where I've just got a really good team to start with?

Carl (57:42)
Heheheheh

Yeah, you know, get it sort of put into the Cambridge Entrance interview. Like, can you play rugby? I need this player, this player, this player.

Shanners (57:57)
side.

Yeah, no, I mean, I mean, I wish I wish we had control over who could apply who can get accepted, but we have absolutely none. No control whatsoever on that front, unfortunately. So it's basically what whatever rocks up and rocks up. So I think, yeah, I think this year, they're pretty quiet on recruitment. I'm not sure what you know, I think we've got a couple of young tens coming in like 18 year olds. We've got good pedigree from what I've heard.

I think we're keeping seven out of the eight starting pack, which is pretty good. It's just mainly the backs that were a little bit, there'd be a new set of backs kind of coming in. Don't know obviously what Oxford have got coming in or losing, but it'd probably be similar to us, 50 % less squad will go and then whatever they kind of bring in. So yeah, but it's, yeah, it's challenging. It's a lot of.

Carl (58:52)
I was going to say, it must be really rewarding, like really exciting, not knowing how it's going to end up each year, completely different.

Shanners (58:59)
Yeah, yeah, nerve wracking and exciting. You know, you kind of, like I said, you look at it and like I said, I'll look at it in September and I'll be like, my God, shit. Yeah. But then like, yeah, my wife always laughs at me as well. Cause I always, yeah, I'll be like, my God, we've got a really, we've not got a great team out this week, this Monday night or Wednesday. I think we're really going to struggle. She's like, all right. And then she looks like the game finishes. They just mess me like you just won by 40 points. I was like, yeah, but I don't know how we did that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's,

Carl (59:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

In September we were shit.

Shanners (59:27)
Yeah, it's a weird one. I think I don't know. Maybe I've I don't know. I'm a bit of a realist. Maybe I need to be an optimist and a bit of a dreamer. So but no, it's good fun. I really enjoy it. And yeah, very, very privileged and honored to kind of be able to do that for the last 10 years.

Carl (59:34)
That's it.

So how did that come about? Did you right place, right time, or did somebody you know that sort of said, do you fancy having a pop at this?

Shanners (59:52)
I was, I just, so obviously I was at Cambridge between 2005 and 2010. So I did five years there. So I had quite good links with the university because we'd play against the university and we'd do some training sessions against them. You know, so I got on pretty well, like Tony Rogers was there. I got on pretty well with him and I had some mutual like a close friend of mine had gone to Cambridge University. I'd lived with him. So I'd met Todd and a few other of the old boys as well.

Carl (1:00:00)
Yeah.

Shanners (1:00:21)
So yeah, 2012, I just got a phone call basically saying, look, we're gonna advertise for a coach for Cambridge University. Would you be interested? Would you like to apply? And I was like, Christ,

Carl (1:00:30)
Okay. Yeah.

Rugby Through The Leagues (1:00:34)
So basically applied for it and then yeah went for an interview And basically had an interview and then yeah was offered the offered the job I did one season and then I and then I went to Plymouth so I couldn't commute obviously Cambridge to Plymouth. So yeah, I basically unfortunately had to resign basically so I did one season But then when I left Plymouth and came back to the area I got a phone call and

asking if I'd like to come back. They just had a couple of, I think, record defeats and they were struggling a bit and I kind of said, yeah, I'd love to come back. And yes, I came back in 2015, changed a few things. We've worked really hard as a club, myself and Scott Anetti, director of rugby, just to develop more players within. So we have a real good, you know, the squad, for example, that played last season out of the 23, 15 of them had played through the club either.

in the third team or the second team and then into the blue squad. Whereas probably when I first came in, you would lie heavily on post grads and kind of maybe a few stars coming in, like a Jamie Roberts or whatever. But we're now kind of trying to make sure we can kind of develop within. You know, and it's... Do you see DORs walking up and down the halls trying to figure out who looks like they can text text you? Yeah, kind  doing stuff like that. So I mean, mean, last year  our best year. Like we won...

all three of the boys games, three from three which we haven't done. And the girls had a really good year as well. They won two out of three and probably should have won the third one. So it was really a clean sweep. So yeah, the club working pretty hard and doing pretty well. Yeah, so that's probably taken a good seven or eight years to get to that point. So it hasn't been just an overnight thing. We had a lot of changes through the club and the coaching and how we worked and how the S&C and it is.

Yeah, it's been really, really, really good. Yeah, sounds amazing. So as you said earlier on in the Convo as well, you went over to Italy for a couple of years. What sort of seasons, what year was that? So that was 2003 to 2005. Okay. So what was the sort of state of Italian rugby then? Very good then. So that was the Super De 'Ecce, so Super 10 league. So that's when you had like Treviso Calvisano, Viadana

They were the top three clubs and then you kind of had Padova, us, Parma would be fighting for like that fourth spot for the playoff spot basically. No, it was really good, really physical, strong. I mean, you know, in my team, we had a couple of Italian internationals like Roland Di Marini playing 10, Carlo Di Favre and we had Alesana Tualangi on the wing who was...

an absolute freak. He's only a small chap, isn't he? The following season we had Sorenny Bobo, played Fiji, sevens, won World Cups and Hong Kong sevens and stuff. So yeah, it was a really good standard. I would say when you played like a Treviso Calvisano or Viadana it would be like a top, easily top end championship, maybe just a bottom end premiership. That would kind of be the level. So yeah.

that's what it would be. So yeah, it was like, you know, it was was lot of fun, really good, great, you know, great country. You know, it's, it's nice, you know, from March until October, it's, you know, 20 odd 30 degrees. It's pretty nice, good food, good, good people, good culture. The rugby was physical, but it was good fun. Yeah, I loved, I loved the two years and yeah, I would have loved to have done another another of years, but like I said, the opportunity at Cambridge just was too good to kind of turn down.

that opportunity, do you think that would have appeared in Italy? Do you think you could have played a coach out there or? I probably didn't think about playing a coach. I think I always felt I'd come back to England and play a coach. I think it was just more the fact of doing maybe a couple more years in Italy, like I said, I was 28. Yeah, and then coming back to England to kind of settle down and get into it with the wife and probably start a family and other stuff. But yeah, kind of.

Cambridge was too good a opportunity to kind of turn down and a bit like Italy and same as France, it's quite volatile. So, you know, you could always be waiting. Like, for example, my second year at Parma, I literally was leaving to get my flight when my contract finally got agreed. And that was like mid June. We just kind of just lost the semi -final against Treviso We drew the first game, lost the semi -final.

second game and they went to Calvisano and I went to see the owner just to say thanks for everything because I didn't think I was coming back because I did a season. I couldn't agree contracts, my agent couldn't agree with the director of sport. It was just like right I'm going to go back to England, probably go to a championship club. I went and saw the owner to say thank you for everything you've done. He'd been really nice to me and stuff like that and he was like well I'll see you next year and I was like well no, nothing's been agreed.

and he was obviously started swearing in Italian and gesturing and he said, all right, okay, wait a minute. So he phoned up the director of sport. They were talking very quickly so I could pick up bits, but not anything Italian. Then he said, can I give me your agent's number or phone your agent, phone your agent. So I phoned my agent, passed my phone to him. He spoke to my agent again. They were speaking French though, cause my agent was fluent in French. So speaking French, I didn't speak any French.

Bonjour, ça va. So they're speaking fluent da da da passed the phone back to me and I was like, agents like, yeah, like done deal, he's going to fax it through to me now. So he basically puts, writes everything down to fax it through. Yeah. And that was, that was it. And I kind of shook hands and was like, right, phone my agent up and said, like, what's happened? And he went, well, yeah, we've agreed another year, everything we wanted, you know, the deal you wanted, they've agreed everything.

The contracts are being drawn up and you were signing when you get home and basically landed got off my flight contract was in my inbox signed it and yeah and went back to early four weeks later. So that's how volatile it could be. So when Cambridge the offer was to get to this I was just worried that I would turn it away and then things in Italy could just go that way or that way and I just was like I'm not I can't do this again. I can't be about to get on a flight. Yeah no contract or sorting my contract out so.

Yeah, I just went back to England. What was the, if you don't mind me asking, what was the sort of salary difference back then? Was it a little payday out there for you to go out there? Yeah, it was well paid. I mean, look, you didn't get taxed, so it was tax free. Perfect. I had all the accommodation paid for, my bills, car. Yeah, so pretty much I would...

I would send probably half my paycheck home and the other half I would go and enjoy myself. Especially my first season because I wasn't sure how long I'd be there. My wife, she was doing a year in industry in London. She would fly out most weekends, like on a Friday night. Nearest airport to Parma, what's weird? At the time you had a few options. You had Verona, Milano, Bologna. Usually it was the one near Verona.

Yeah, it was about an hour away, but Milan was pretty good as well. Bergamo that was just over an hour away. Yeah, but that's when Ryanair wasn't Was very good. You know, you'd pick up a flight for 50 quid Yeah And you would have to pay for you train travels dirt cheap out in it Yeah, so, you know if we're for example, we're playing in Rome in the weekends My wife would fly over to Rome. Yeah on the Friday. She's down at hotel I stay with a team and then the Saturday the game we played. Yeah, it's that Rome

Nice Saturday Sunday shift fly back. I think that's a train back up for Monday morning training. So yeah Yeah, we did a lot of that. So yeah, 50 % say that my paycheck went home 50 % was spent enjoying ourselves And then when I moved back back home, that's what you know, we did basically buy a house and other bits and pieces that yeah So it was it was very good. Yeah, but I mean to be fair even the money in the championship then was very good as well Yeah, it's it

this dropped considerably from when I was in the championship. But yeah, it was good. And there were some some like I said, Alessandro Alesana would have been making a lot more money. But it was a good environment to be in and was well paid. And yeah, it was really enjoyable. Go on then. Who's the best player you ever played with then?

So, I don't know, I think there's probably a few to mention. So, I would say to start with, we've already mentioned, but Alesana, to allow you, just, yeah, look, if you needed a try or needed someone to bust, you just, there you go, Alesana here's the ball. I mean, I think that season he scored about 30, 40 tries. I mean, he then went to Leicester the following year and then obviously kicked on. Yeah, he was outstanding.

I would say when I was at Pirates, Joe Beerman, back row player, then went onto the Dragons. Just really talented, like he's a... And he was so casual about it, he was hilarious, he was like a captain and stuff, but he just, you know, he'd love a drink, he'd love a night out, loved a bit of surfing, lived in Newquay and he'd just rock up with his surfing beach body, with his chicken legs, rock up, and he'd just be like, right, let's just go out there and have fun, we're gonna put 50 of them.

And that was his team talk. I was like, OK. But he was really talented. Wow. But actually backed it up as well. So he could struggle with it, put an absolute shift in, and then disappear off with his surfboard over his shoulder. And that was him. No, but he was very good. Mark Fatiolofa, when he was at Pirates, inside center, very talented. Yeah, really good player. Trying to think who else.

Yeah, they'd probably be the pick, I would say. But yeah, I'd be pretty lucky playing, yeah, playing quite a lot of decent players, but I'd say they were the ones that kind of stand out. Sam Matavesi I coached him more than same player when he was at Plymouth and converting into hooker. Just thought he was just a really talented footballer. Adder, really good player, really a very funny guy. Mad as a box of frogs. Calm down a lot now. But yeah, he was a really talented footballer. I mean, I saw him...

which is horrendous. I saw him score a try against the RAF a few weeks ago playing for the Navy where he got it it and chased, re -garroted and scored. And I was like, my God, he's going to be dining out on that for years. But no, he was a really talented player and a good guy as well. Who was the best player you got to play against then? Yeah, I was thinking about that one. I think, yeah, Stephen Larkham

So basically played against, before England Counties, there used to be like a national divisional kind of 15. So it was like the best players championship down, it was usually the championship players, but at that time it was national one. So I basically got selected to play against Australia, the full Australian team. So I played at 12 opposite Elton Flatley. Yeah.

went on to kick Australia to 2003 win. And then you had like George Smith playing, George Griegan. But yeah, Stephen Larkham, I just thought he was just ridiculous. Like they go, they run hard at the line and usually for 10 runs hard at the line, he's going to drop a short ball in and then he runs out of the line and just throw a 15 meter pass. And you just be like, okay. Yeah. I mean, so that, that was, they would have been the best team I played against, but I think he was probably the best player I've played against. I just thought he was. Wow.

Yeah, he was ridiculous, but they had all their big hitters, you know, they all had big hits playing in that game. You know, that was the week before they were playing England. So they kind of went fairly loaded. And actually, I think we only lost 24 or 15. bad shift then. We played really well and then had a good night out in Leicester. And they all actually, to be fair to them, they were all out and leaving the walk about half five in the morning and they were basically getting their kit bags to get on the...

get the bus to get to the flight to Heathrow to fly over to Portugal. Yeah, for the England game. Yeah, that was a good weekend. So I think yeah, Stephen Larkham would be there. Yeah, James, mate, what a chat. Thank you so much for your time, mate. I really, really appreciate it. Could have gone on forever.

Hopefully we'll be able to touch base mid -season or something, get you back on, see how Blackheath are going and maybe in time just before the Varsity as well. So see how that's laying out, mate. So really, really appreciate you jumping on the pod, mate. That's all right, that's no problem. I appreciate it. Cheers, mate.

Carl (1:13:52)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. So in today's episode, we find out how Shanners is leading the charge and the reason behind so many signings at Blackheath Rugby Club and the unique challenges of getting Cambridge University ready for the varsity games and also

having the opportunity to play alongside Alessandra Tualagi when he was over in Italy and apparently he was still just destroying people for fun. So next week we delve a little bit back into my playing career where we have Sean Shepard on who was probably one of the best players I ever got the opportunity to play with. And it's also our first door open to peek through to find out about the current successes over at Havant Rugby Club. We discuss his opportunities throughout his career.

and also how a major injury at a key time can change the course of a potential career. It's another great interview with TopTopLad who, funnily enough, has actually recently got engaged. So congrats, Sean, just ahead of that. Once again, a huge thank you to you all. Thank you and goodbye.