Carl (00:12)
Hello and welcome to Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. We want to keep shining a light on rugby that is not shown in the mainstream media. I'm Carl and thanks for joining us on the next installment of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. Don't forget to subscribe to the pod and keep in touch on the social media platforms. We're actually lining up a really, really exciting competition to improve the background and the aesthetics of the podcast. So going to hopefully be releasing that in the next week, which will

include engagement from everyone, hopefully get some clubs, some real sort of put into the spotlight off the back of that competition. So keep an eye on that one. Everyone else that has been part of the pod, thank you so much for everything you're doing. Everyone's getting really involved and the feedback has been really good. I know we can improve as you can see. I've got some new shiny headphones to stop looking like a call center. A lot of people have obviously mentioned that so.

taking that on board. We've invested in a new camera as well, not in use at the minute, but that will be coming soon. As you can see, we're still on the road. Had a few issues with the old visas and getting back to Spain, so we are hopefully back there soon enough and we can get back into the comfort mode and be able to start putting some proper content out there for you guys. So this week though, we've got...

An absolute barnstormer. There is no revelation unturned by the likes of our guest this week. We've got Oli Curry coming on, who used to be part of London Irish. He played across the leagues, willingly put his head above the parapet even during the game as well, and probably one of the most outspoken people in rugby, which was brilliant to get him on.

an absolute eye -opener to what happens behind the scenes of the pro game and how he gets to the pro game. Oli's actually run across the border by the seems of it. So recently he's moved to Scotland. So whether he was worried about the pod coming out and the revelations, I don't know. But listening to Oli, he's moved north, seems to have got a new job up there and it's going to be tied up quite busy. So the second part of this...

pod. We'll probably have to wait a little while but when that comes out that'll be a blinder because he's got so many more stories to tell. Obviously talks about how he ended his career the third or fourth time however many times he's come out of retirement now but ended up over at Chinnor for their promotion season as well so talks about that. We also go over his times in

at London Irish. The money he was paid, the money he didn't get paid, the benefits that he received, which was able to share the affectionately known crack den with Joe Cokanasinga which was quite a funny part of the pod. So let's get into this one. We're hopefully back to normal programming from next week or the week after. So thanks everyone. Let's get on with this one.

Carl (03:22)
Right, so this week we've got Oli Curry on. Off the back of our little interview with Sean Sheps the other week, he highlighted Oli as probably one of the best players he ever played with. That piqued my interest, so I dropped Oli a message on the old Instagram, looked through his backstory, which is an amazing backstory, and thought, right, let's get him on the pod, because he literally...

epitomises what this pod's about, where he's been, what he's done, knocking down the doors and I think this one's going to be a really good conversation. Oli, thanks for your time mate. For those that aren't aware of yourself, can you share your rugby journey, where you've been and we can sort of go down memory lane hopefully, mate.

Oli Curry (04:04)
Yeah, I mean, I'll try and keep it brief. I'm a bit of a talker, so, you know, pull me back if I'm going in too long. But essentially, I grew up with football. Obviously, I live in Winchester, the kind of south of England is just like mainly football. I was playing in goal and basically I hit, I think I hit around six foot at something like 10 years, 10 years old.

I was this absolute kind of like Peter Crouch everyone used to call me. And one of my, one of my mates' dads basically said like, you're way too big to be playing football, you need to come along to rugby. So I essentially got dragged along down to Winchester. And it was kind of one of those ones, I think it was maybe the year second rows were just coming in. And the coaches were kind of like, you know, eyes light up.

I've got two older brothers as well. So for me, I, I'd kind of gone from like, you know, pretty rough and tumble household with my brothers and then gone into came to this rugby training session. And it just from then it was just kind of like, this is, this is for me. I like football and goal. You're, you're either the hero or the villain. And then all of a sudden you turn up to rugby training. Someone throws you a ball.

Carl (05:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (05:27)
and you're just running through, especially at that age, being with my height, you're running through kids, you're allowed to be physical, you're allowed to do all these things, and from that...

Carl (05:37)
It probably helps from coming from being a goalie as well, Oli at least you could catch at that age. That is probably a start for most rugby players that go to the game, they can't catch for about a year. So you've probably jumped the queue a little bit there.

Oli Curry (05:42)
Yeah.

Thank you.

Well, that like, it's quite funny. My, my, I'm the youngest, my middle brother, he pretty much puts it down to him because he would just launch tennis balls and footballs at me, like from like literally the age of like three. always like hand, I was quite good. And then, yeah, it was that funny thing at that age. You, you've kind of got kids who are like, I dunno, maybe their dad's kind of forced them into it or they're not really sure what they're doing.

Carl (06:06)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (06:20)
Maybe don't enjoy the physical side that's coming. And I was quite lucky to be one of those kids, just from literally having older brothers. I was loving it. Absolutely loving it. So I kind of started off through there. Eventually had the conversation. My mum was sick of doing Saturday and Sunday football and rugby. So she said, you need to pick. And I remember having a conversation with my middle brother being like, well,

I prefer rugby. If I make even half of what football players make playing rugby, then I'd probably be happy doing that. If I'd known now I was going to make 1 % of what, probably not even, 0 .1 % of what football players earn, I might have made a different choice. But started off at Winchester and then kind of started doing well and...

Carl (07:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (07:13)
managed to, I was really lucky at Winchester we had Mike Marchant, I'm sure you probably might have heard his name thrown around.

Carl (07:20)
Yeah, Mike's been dropped on here a few times, mate, and Joe, and there's been a few on the pod recently that Mike Marchant seems to have made a big impact in the Hampshire rugby scene. So, one day we might be able to finally get him on.

Oli Curry (07:24)
Yeah.

You lose.

That would be an interesting one. For those who don't know, he's an absolute nutter, really. Moonshine, everyone calls him. And he basically was just this absolutely insane rugby coach. But because his son Joe, who now played for England, now playing in France, insanely successful rugby player. Because his son Joe was in our age group, we ended up having Mike as a coach.

Carl (07:47)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (08:05)
who was also doing stuff with London Irish and County. So he basically kicked me into shape. Really lucky he took a good shine to me. I don't know if I thought that was a good thing at the time because he was brutal. Anyone who knows him, he was really brutal. He wasn't scared to let any kid at any age be put in their place sort of thing. So...

He managed to kind of get me into London Irish stuff. And then I, it was quite funny actually, I got dropped from London Irish because they thought I wasn't going to be tall enough. They basically thought I'd kind of peaked here and that they had this weird trial because you used to have bronze, silver, gold, and this weird trial to get into silver where basically we didn't touch a rugby ball. They just weighed us, measured us, and then we did like a, some jumps, some things like that.

And they, I think they even took our parents height. It was honestly one of the weirdest days of my life. and they, yeah, they said, you're not, I think I must've been maybe 12 or 13. It was, it was so odd. It was so odd that their thought process was, they could teach anyone to be a rugby player, but they couldn't teach height. It was, I think it was.

Carl (09:10)
Really? How old were you then? How old was that?

Really?

Oli Curry (09:34)
that trial was just forwards, maybe like London Irish silver forwards. They were basically looking for kind of like physical freaks really, which is kind of funny because I definitely at that time, height wise was that, but I think because my parents were around the same height as me, they thought I wasn't going to grow again. So I ended up getting dropped, carried on playing at London Irish and then kind of did county rugby.

Carl (09:55)
Right.

Oli Curry (10:03)
which is where I played with Sean. And it was all kind of very, that was probably my point. That's where I was at. I might be going into too much kind of detail on my career here. And then at 14, I was essentially going through this like quite a rough patch at school. Just wasn't really doing well, wasn't the place for me. And...

Carl (10:15)
No, it's amazing, mate. Keep going, keep going. Love it.

Oli Curry (10:30)
just going through this kind of weird time in my life at such a young age and then I just had this weird realization that actually I could not work or be stuck in an office for the rest of my life if I really focused on my rugby and also with my rugby it was the one time like I was probably quite an angry kid and it was the one time where if I went and was like really like angry and

kind of like threw people around and used that side of me, I'd be rewarded for it. So I kind of had this moment at 14 where I was like, look, it makes people happy when I play rugby. It makes me happy because I'm not in an office or like in a classroom at the time. So I was like, you know, I was kind of like, fuck it, I'm going to be a rugby player. And from then on, from probably like 14,

Carl (11:03)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (11:23)
At 16, I managed to get into Hartbury did a year at Hartbury, which went terribly. I basically got there, I was 16 years old and I don't know if you know much, you live in dorms at 16. So it was this block of like, I think around 20 guys in like a, in a building. And then opposite, you'd have like,

you know, a block of 20 girls and it was literally like that, this whole play. So it was just like this absolute chaos year of the rugby was so high level, like I had Ellis Genge in the year above me. Like we had Johnny Hill, Lewis Ludlow, all these guys who like went on to play England or like, like serious amounts of Prem rugby. And it was just like this.

Carl (12:16)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (12:19)
probably the closest to like, you know, you you these American films of like how the American football players are treated in the college. That was lit literally Hartbury rugby. So, again, not doing very well in school. And I remember like, they were like, right, you're not going to be allowed to play rugby. I walked down to rugby, tell the coach, Alan Martinovich at the time, and he'd be like, leave it with me. He'd make one phone call and he'd be like,

Carl (12:27)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (12:45)
Yeah, don't worry about it. You're still fine to play. So it was this environment of kind of like sink or swim. You're either going to be the best rugby player ever or you're going to have no A levels, anything like that. So for me, it was probably, it ended up becoming carnage. I didn't really have any structure. I'd gone from being at home with my family where they kind of gave me a bit of structure.

I had Mike Marchant kind of keeping an eye on me as well. And then I ended up at Hartbury and it was just chaos. It was just me and Joe Batley and my good mate, Daley. Like we were just 16 year olds just doing whatever the hell we wanted. So I had a pretty rough year then and then got really lucky that Billy Clark at London Irish basically phoned me up and got me back into the academy.

which was an absolute blessing because at the end of my first year of Hartbury, I finished my A levels. I got three U's. I got three U's and a B in PE. So basically they were like, right, you're out. Like you can't come back to this college. Which was really funny because in the end, Martinowicz at Hartbury did what he always does. And he actually invited me to come back to Hartbury with three U's and do my second year.

Carl (13:58)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (14:10)
And it was so funny. I was like, if I do, if I got free a stars, I'd still have, I wouldn't be able to get to like a C, but all you care about is just rugby. So ended up at London Irish. They like really luckily bought me in for my second year. again, I moved in with a great kind of family, how they do it in London Irish. You literally live with a family, which is odd.

Carl (14:20)
Yeah.

Okay.

Oli Curry (14:40)
The family I was with had a guy in the year below me in rugby, so they were kind of rugby family again. I had a great coach in Giselle Marver, who now coaches like the Ealing Women's. And kind of got me back on track and then really like from there, I was still in this mindset, like really pushing, like knew I wanted to be a rugby player, signed at London Irish. And...

Yeah, that that's kind of where like my career, I guess, kind of started, which is this funny for now, like, in my head, like, my most people would see my rugby career starting at like 18 from when like a normal, like when you're being paid, most people would see that as career. But the only thing about rugby, the biggest grind I would definitely say is from 14 to 18. When you're competing with like,

Carl (15:26)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (15:35)
every other kid in the country who wants to make it and the thing like

Carl (15:42)
especially if they're measuring you and doing stupid things like that rather than seeing your ability on the field. I still can't get over that. I think somebody else mentioned that the other day on one of the previous pods that they had come up to pre -season, even pros, I think it was at Wasps back in the day, and they'd be weighed. So if they didn't hit a certain level, they had to get to a certain level. They were deemed that they weren't ready for rugby. So that was it. They had to be 100 kilos or something like that.

And if he weren't there, you had to go away and put more weight on. And then just that was apparently the only way that you could play rugby. It's just, that's crazy. So how long ago was that, Oli? So you've...

Oli Curry (16:23)
that's 10 years 10 years yeah

Carl (16:26)
So the game's hopefully changed since then. That's not the only metric that they judge these kids on, I hope. But I wouldn't surprise them if it's not.

Oli Curry (16:33)
Yeah, I do hope. I definitely think like, you look at now, like the diversity of the UK as well, it's still one of the things they definitely need to work on though, is the fact that like, you've got, I think they should go to how they have it in New Zealand where everything's done by weight. You look at the players coming out of there, because one of the problems was like,

you've got some massive kids, like, you know, we all hit like, different stages. and if you're someone like me was big, you're probably not going to get as good at tackling and carrying and footwork and stuff because you just get away with being big. so it definitely, but I mean, talk like the weight thing for some coaches is still massive. Like absolutely like way. I would say high.

Carl (17:24)
Really.

Oli Curry (17:28)
is quite, I mean, being a second row, that was obviously massively important. You kind of needed to be like six, six. I was tall. Nowadays, the size of kids, I don't even know if I'd be tall for a second row anymore. Like through my years, I remember seeing like kids coming in at 18 and they were like six, eight, six, nine. Like kids were just getting bigger and bigger. So height was obviously the big thing, but.

Carl (17:45)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (17:56)
I would say, especially in the forward pack, weight, weight, some coaches obsess. Like, as you said, I had, when I signed at London Irish, I think I was around 104 kilos. And they would only ever play me in the back row until I got, I think maybe up to like 112, 114, because they just, they were like, you cannot play in the second row. Rotherham

Carl (18:18)
Ready.

Did they rationale why? What was the reason that they think that sort of extra 10 kegs is going to make a difference? Apart from making it harder for a prop to lift you, that's about it, really.

Oli Curry (18:33)
It was old.

Yeah, it's, I know it's so funny and it's, it was all about scrum time and I always thought, yeah, cause I always found that a tough one because I was never a naturally heavy kid. like, so like that's one four was like actually like a really good weight for me. and that was like really pushing. Like when I was at Irish, I used to drive a,

Carl (18:44)
Right, so pack, pack weight.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (19:05)
2001 Honda Civic and in my boot was mass gainer. I had a massive thing, massive like five kilo tub of mass gainer, some shredded like oats. And then in the colder months, I literally used to have like gold tub milk, which I used to keep in the back of my car. Sounds disgusting now. And I used to finish sessions and just make this like, you know, two and a half thousand calories shake, just trying to get to like a hundred and four.

so that was just like so tough, but I always was very like, I loved the gym. That was always my thing. So I used to say to coaches like, he might be heavier than me, but I know I'm stronger than it. Like I can out squat him. So logically you think a scrum, me being stronger is more important than being heavy. But I think even if you have modern coaches,

Carl (19:36)
Jesus.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (20:03)
the time they played rugby and what they've learned is normally pretty savage but outdated so these coaches would be like no no it's about weight you'd be about weight and I even remember doing like one -on -ones against second rows like older guys who are heavier than me and then absolutely like dishing them up and but the coach would still be like but no he's more important because he's stronger so those sort of old school things like Rotherham you had Justin Bonnell

Carl (20:24)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (20:33)
from Wales, he wouldn't play players similar to what I think the other person you're talking to he wouldn't play players until they hit certain weights. So I was there in my third year of rugby, 21. He made, he only get to, I think he would only play me in the second row above 118. You think 14 kilos of growth. And I think at one point I was like 122.

Carl (20:44)
Really?

Yeah.

Really?

Oli Curry (21:01)
and my rugby went downhill so fast like you're

Carl (21:06)
Yeah, I can imagine, because you've got to be carrying those extra kegs. You've practiced for years, you know your body, and then you've got to put another 10 kilos on top, which, as you said, is really difficult. And how old were you? What, roughly 21, did you say?

Oli Curry (21:12)
Yeah.

yeah i was like 21 and literally exactly as you said they made me like insanely heavy and my big thing used to be like my carrying and like i just lost all acceleration and speed and also i was absolutely blowing so your your kind of carrying got so much worse but and i remember having

Carl (21:40)
Yeah.

So with your minutes then, did that reduce your minutes or were you still having to play 80 but hitting maybe 55, 60 minutes blowing out your hoop?

Oli Curry (21:56)
80, yeah, 80 minutes and honestly after like 20 minutes, because at that point for me, it was literally like wearing like a 15 kilo vest. You kind of think, I've got a 15 kilo vest on you and then ask you to go play rugby. Like you're, what are you running? Like maybe four or 5K in a game and you're doing, I don't know, like 30, 40 down ups essentially.

Carl (22:08)
Yeah. Right. Okay, yeah.

Oli Curry (22:24)
like you got push in a scrum, you got more. And it just like, I remember having a conversation with a guy, Tom Fowley, who played for London Irish and he was a year above me and he was a massive guy known for center, known for bumping people. And he basically had this realization that when you get into like the pro level, everyone can tackle. So even if you're massive, like,

Obviously you kind of, you have those, well it's hard, even if you're massive, most people are just gonna chop you. Like everyone's kind of good enough to do that. So it's more about like the acceleration, like the speed, the power and the footwork and like handing off those sort of skills. Like, actually the things that like when you look at the really good carriers in like professional rugby.

It's normally an absolute combination of both. Like it's sort of the only one I'd say who really you might say breaks that. Like you look at Ellis Genge when he carries. You might say, well, he's massive and he's using it. But actually his thing is like he's insanely explosive. He uses his footwork so well, but he uses his footwork not to beat people how most people when they think of footwork.

Carl (23:24)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (23:48)
but to off balance them and then he just absolutely sends them flying. So that was like quite a funny patch of my career. I had all this weight kind of like thrown on top of me and you're still trying to do the same job. But yeah.

Carl (24:03)
Did you feel that you just had to do it because that was how rugby was or is and that if you didn't follow along, you wouldn't make it in that sense? Did you just kind of have to just nod and agree? And obviously thinking you read this is absolute bollocks, but I want to make this a career.

Oli Curry (24:12)
Thank you.

Yeah. You have to.

You have to like it's quite funny and like I've had some real controversial conversations with like a lot of women about this in that they've had a lot of like times in the women's game. I've seen like S &C coaches like really digged out for like weighing players and like they then have this thing, I had this coach telling me about my weight and stuff like that and I...

have spoken to them before and said that's really tough because it's exactly the same for them for men. Like if men were being told like, you know, you like, yeah, it doesn't matter, be the way. And then they were doing it for women, I would say really tough, but it's tough because the S &C, he is at the end of the day trying to give you the best chance at being your best player. And he is also doing it for the coach as well. So if you know that coach, like,

as you said, that coach in his head, there's no argument, you've got to be this way. Then the S and C is going to be like, right, we're going to do everything we can to get you through that way. And you've just, you've in a way, you've just got to go with it. and don't get me wrong. Like I could never have played second, second row at like 104. I did need to gain. I did need to gain like my best playing weight was around 112, 114.

Carl (25:36)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (25:51)
But I just.

Carl (25:52)
And did you adapt and feel comfortable with that? Did you have to sort of adapt and do a lot more work, as you said, like running around with a weight vest on or something to get to that point? Or did that just sort of naturally come?

Oli Curry (26:02)
Yeah.

it takes time. It definitely takes like two or three years to kind of adjust to that because as well at the start when you hit those weights, it's normally pretty rubbish weight. You're just carrying fat like nobody can like, you know, we're not in South Africa. Like nobody can put muscle on it in one off season. Like you're essentially just putting on fat and then hopefully after like, you know, one to two years, then that fat you eventually like, you can turn that into muscle and then.

Carl (26:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Oli Curry (26:34)
like your weight really grows and then you drop the fat and feel fresh again. Like that's definitely what happened to me. Like once I got the muscle on my frame and I could like lose the fat, my rugby like definitely improved my back. Like my back used to be in agony. I was getting like needles every day. and then once you hit that again, you kind of have that like second bump. and rugby, they normally call it like Dad strength as well. Once you get like a little bit older,

Carl (27:00)
Yeah, I say the same sort of thing. You get to a certain, you get a dad strength, you get to a natural age and your body changes. But those two years, as you said, that it took you to get to that point, were probably quite critical. If you're 20, 21, 22, 24, trying to get into the game, that two or three year period, that could have put you out the shop window. Is that fair to say?

Oli Curry (27:06)
Yeah.

Hmm.

yeah, like I mean it was...

Carl (27:26)
Even though you're being told to do that, you know naturally it's not right for your body to be there. The coach has put you in that position, but you could easily be dropped and everything goes crumbling down.

Oli Curry (27:36)
It's the brutal thing though, and it's probably the thing I hated most about rugby is unlike a lot of jobs, it's opinionated. So you're relying on one coach's opinion. So like at the same time, it would have dragged me down because I definitely knew I like, I wasn't playing rugby how I like could have been playing. I definitely felt I'd have been better if I kept the weight down, but it's probably.

actually did keep me being a better rugby player because then other rugby coaches when they were looking to sign me when you have your highlight reel you know they want your height and your weight on your on your highlight reel so i'll know like rugby's not one of these things really like you obviously again you've got outliers who do kind of break the barriers down but if i'd had a highlight reel going around at like 106 kilos second row

Carl (28:20)
Right, okay.

Oli Curry (28:35)
Because I'm dealing with coaches who are just like, they've just got that mindset of weight is so important. No one would have signed me. So it is honestly, it is so tough. It is like you're battling with all of these things. You're trying to play the best rugby you can, but then you have got to be a certain way to.

Carl (28:44)
Bye.

on paper you've got to back the weight up because that's literally a shop window. If they don't, as you see here, if it doesn't say on there, that's bonkers. That's the first thing they look at in that set. That's...

Oli Curry (29:02)
Yeah, right.

Amen.

Yeah, you turn up for your medical. You turn up for your medical. And the main thing of a medical, like they are kind of seeing if you're injured. They probably know, like, if you have had a bad injury, things like that. But the main thing I always felt was kind of like checking your height and weight. Like we kind of go back to it. It was like checking your weight. Like I remember downing, like when I got to Ealing, like they, again, another club, like all big on weight.

and just downing water before the medical to make sure I show it.

Carl (29:43)
I was going to say is that there's the ways that you've got to fudge the system just to get through it.

Oli Curry (29:47)
Yeah, I mean, like healing was every day after that. Every day you started your morning with a weigh in. And it was quite funny.

Carl (29:56)
Are they still the same now? Are they still weight driven now, do you know?

Oli Curry (30:00)
I don't know, but I honestly assume they will because of how they're S &C. It's still the same guy. And it's, I know with rugby, you used to start most days to be like with a weigh in, you'd fill in like an RPE sheet, which was like, how have you slept? How are you feeling? How sore are you? All of this stuff, which I was used to laugh.

Carl (30:06)
Bye.

Was that a welfare thing, Oli, or was that just a case of that was just a tick box exercise to make sure they knew what was going on?

Oli Curry (30:28)
It was a... The amount of clubs I know who did that and you could put, you've not slept, you feel horrific, you feel horrendous, all of this stuff. Like, unless you were one of the big dog players, like, you know, like maybe the captain or absolute star player, they did not care. Like, we used to joke about it, like...

you would literally, I've been at clubs where like it very quickly becomes a joke, like you put your sore, the coach is like, well, obviously you're sore. Do you know what I mean? Like nobody cares. It's...

Carl (31:11)
glad to start putting like random ailments and stuff on there just to see if anyone read it just like random random things

Oli Curry (31:14)
Well, that's random things. And then as well, I can talk about the weighing. I used to even like start taking the piss with the weighing at Ealing, because I used to feel so horrific down in this water to make sure I hit weight. I literally used to like comically try and stuff different like weights on my body to see if the S &C noticed.

Carl (31:30)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (31:38)
And like, it would literally be like you'd weigh in like six kilos heavy. You've been away like Sunday, you weigh in six kilos heavier on Monday. And the coach, the S and C would be like, like brilliant. Your weight is finally starting to come on. And you'd literally be like, mate, are you serious? Like I've got like weight stuffed in my pockets. I do like it.

Carl (31:56)
just got a pocket full of fishing weights. Just...

Oli Curry (31:58)
Yeah, honestly, like so much of that stuff was such a joke. I know at Bristol though, like, I don't know if they still do it now. I know at one point in Bristol, they used to have an RPE scale. Players used to have to do on a Sunday for how much they drunk after a game. So it was like, it was like, how many drinks did you have? Like how hungover, like, did you go out? Like all of this stuff, like trying to measure every element of

the team's lives, do you know what I mean? So, like stuff like that, I absolutely hated, because I was probably, it probably hindered me in my career. I was always someone to ask why, like why are we doing this? And like, that's the sort of thing, as I said, there's so much tick -boxing going on, you start questioning why, like coaches hate that, S &Cs hate that.

They just want people who are just gonna go, yes, yes, like military, do you know what I mean? And just go on with it. But, because I probably had a bit of an interest in the S &C side of things as well, you start asking people why. And they haven't got the reasoning behind it. That's when you can get yourself in trouble.

Carl (33:14)
Yeah. So it was Irish, Rotherham you've done Ealing Where did the journey go on from them?

Oli Curry (33:19)
Yeah.

Well, I mean once I once I got to Bedford like Bedford, there you go. That's the Bedford one up there as well. they, they are just so different. Like they are an absolute different kind of, it's hard to put into words. There's so many players who will come out saying so many positive things about Bedford because they have none of the bullshit like,

Carl (33:33)
Yeah.

Right, okay.

Oli Curry (33:54)
It is literally the, I'd say they're the top, what we used to joke in the league, pub team in England, I would say, in the way of like, there's no mad training facility. Like they've got an S and C, but like he's, he's not, you're not having to fill out an RPE every morning. They don't really care about your weight. Like they just have none of this, like so many clubs.

Carl (34:05)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (34:23)
They just looked at what the best were doing and then tried to copy it, but didn't actually like copy the reasons behind like Saracens were probably taking RPEs, but they would look at the data and then adjust people's running. but like, I mean, I'm pretty sure at Rotherham we didn't even have GPS's so they would take all the data, but then they couldn't like adjust you anyway.

Carl (34:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, so there was no impact of what any of that was. It was just, I've heard somebody can do this and this is being done by the top team. If we do it, we're going to win the league. That sort of lunacy within rugby seems fairly ingrained, to be honest.

Oli Curry (34:56)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, literally. So you got to Bedford and it was just like, yeah, we used to have this real old chef called Noz and you'd be getting these questionable dinners. Like one of my favorite stories of Bedford is he, Noz the chef, he's one of the best blokes. He used to absolutely scream from the touch judge. He'd been at the club for like...

some mad amount of time, like over 25 years. And he used to just always wear sandals, like open -toed shoes. He was just one of those guys, like just absolute legend. But he had this day, we were about to play London Scottish at home. It was like a really big game. And like we got fed on a Tuesday and a Thursday night. And he'd been playing with his grandson who had turned out to have like norovirus on Monday.

So we'd play with his grandson on one day and then he'd come and like cooked us all food on Tuesday. By like Wednesday, I remember like one of the lads is like, guys not gonna be out training not well. And it was like, okay, no big deal. Thursday, it was like five lads. And then Friday, it was like 10 lads and you were like coming towards the game and we were literally not gonna be able to field a team. We...

I think we just about managed to field a team. I remember our winger, like Dean Adams, doing quarter ball, ran the length, caught an intercept, ran the length of the field in the first five minutes, scored, threw up, threw up like on the side of the pitch. Like you've got at Bedford like three, 4 ,000 fans and he's just throwing up, pretty much had to be taken off. He was at home by halftime.

Carl (36:49)
Ugh.

Oli Curry (36:54)
Like, I think we ended up losing the game. Like, the guys were like, why? It's probably the worst I felt in a rugby game. But in a funny way, we actually still, we actually came close to winning. And that is one of the most bedford stories. And like, you've, you're, you've got so much less than like the other teams, but you've just got such a good culture. Like, because none of the rubbish, you've got great culture, like,

Carl (37:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (37:23)
They spent their money on taking us to go away like halfway through the year. Like we did Bordeaux my first year, Barcelona the second year. So they essentially, rather than spending their money on like GPS's or like all of this nonsense, which as I said, most of the time isn't even used anyway. It's just like, they would like spend their time on like getting the squad together, building the culture.

Carl (37:42)
No, it's not used properly, yeah.

Oli Curry (37:50)
And they were like insanely successful from that. Like we finished third in my first year, which we used to joke is like winning the championship because you would have the Premiership team has just been relegated, which was London Irish at the time. And then Ealing was finished second with their one and a half million a year like budget. So whoever got third place, we always used to say was like the genuine winners. Like we just did so well.

Carl (37:59)
Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (38:19)
And like as a player, it was so enjoyable because like, you know, we always used to like, they had such a culture and like, you know, enjoying yourself off the games, like spending time together, like all of this stuff. and that's why we did well compared to the other clubs who were like, are you recovering? Like, are you training? Like, are you eating? Like literally they were just peppering you with like control, control, control. Like what's your weight? What's your heart? Like.

what's your gym stats, like all of the stuff they just wanted to literally control. Whereas when I got to Bedford, it was just brilliant. It was like, just be you sort of thing.

Carl (38:58)
Yeah, and that's... The thing is, a lot of players would probably stomach it if the money was there as well, but I'm guessing the money was nowhere near to have your whole life controlled to that nth degree either.

Oli Curry (39:14)
Well, it's like, I can, don't even get me started on it. It's one of those funny things. I definitely got into rugby for the right and the wrong reasons in that like, it did keep me, as I said, it kept me like out of an office and I did enjoy the fact that it made other people happy when I played it and did well.

But I think if you've got to do rugby, and I know it's this classic thing they say, you've got to do it because you enjoy it. But I can honestly say I never actually enjoyed rugby at all. Like, I'm not one of those people, I don't really watch it. I never knew names of players, like all of that side of things. Like, I won't even really watch like that much sport in general.

Carl (39:56)
Right, okay.

Mm.

Okay.

Oli Curry (40:11)
I was probably definitely in it for like the wrong reasons, but that's why the money side for me became so tough. Like I'm on my first year, my first year of like professional rugby signed at London Irish. I was on eight grand a year. So like you talk about grind, like 14 to 18, I've been grinding. Like I'm not friends with anyone. I'm not drinking. Like.

Carl (40:34)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (40:39)
I move away from all of my mates, like so many relationships, like kind of thrown away. Here 18, I'm not going away on like, you know, people go away that time, I enjoy themselves, I'm doing none of that.

Carl (40:40)
Yeah.

and lad solid days and stuff and you're all there making eight grand a year.

Oli Curry (40:56)
I was on 8 grand a year, like, you know, you're not even being taxed. Like, it works out at so little money. And then you're...

Carl (41:06)
I had Charlie Beech on from before and he was at Northampton Saints as well, he was in the academy. So he was training against the likes of the 2003 World Cup winning squad and stuff like that. They were all in the... And he said, at an academy level, he was on six grand a year when he started. That's just... And he said, I then got offered... He had a house paid for, all of that sort of stuff. So he had somewhere to stay.

Oli Curry (41:12)
Yeah.

Carl (41:36)
meals, all that. He said, I then got an offer to go to Wasps for 18 grand a year. He goes, right, that's it, I'm off. He's got there and then he's realized he's had to pay his rent. He said, literally that soon disappeared in about three seconds in London. He said, I completely fucked that one up. It was the season that Northampton got relegated. So he said, I could have stayed there, probably got a pay rise to maybe seven and a half grand a year or something. But.

Oli Curry (41:53)
Thank you.

Carl (42:02)
He said everything else was paid for. He said, I thought I'd gone there. He said he hit 40, 35, 40 was the top end of his game. And then coming down into the championship, it's just his petants. It's not even... That's mad.

Oli Curry (42:19)
Yeah. But you like, you talk about like, and that's a great thing, like rugby houses, like Academy houses or rugby houses. That's the funniest thing, right? So you could say, to be fair, like I did have that at Irish. So I'd eight grand and what you could possibly call a house, right? Like that place was an absolute den. Like to, so.

Carl (42:29)
Yeah.

Is it?

Oli Curry (42:48)
I think it was a two bed house, right? Two bed house. I think we had four of us living in it, right? So how it used to be and it's kind of mad now, like, there'd a guy, Ross Neil, Curtis Langdon, they were in the top two rooms. Now, I made a mistake. I basically claimed the downstairs room because I had a missus at the time.

Carl (42:54)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (43:16)
and if I had the downstairs room, it meant I got my own bathroom. So I took the downstairs room. What I didn't realize, this downstairs room was a, essentially, it was kind of added onto the house as a like, utility room. So it had no insulation. I've gone in, like moving in, and it is just like mold. It is mold, right? You've got like, you've, I had this.

Carl (43:21)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (43:43)
Broken single bed. So in the end I was like I can't sleep on it So I've just got a mattress on the floor. Like I remember my missus was to visit the first time I've got this tiny alley of a room single bed mold I ended up buying a house plant because I heard it was like Stop the mold pretty much killing me. But like that's what like I was in eventually I got a double bed and the double bed

Carl (44:08)
There's her thinking she's pulled a pro rugby player and she turns up to your little crack den with mould on the walls.

Oli Curry (44:11)
what a mistake.

We literally used to call it the crack then, like it was known at London Irish. I got this double bed and it literally put it in. You couldn't close the door. You couldn't open the door because of the... So like I'd hit the door, like wiggle in and then I'd have to like fall forward and that was my room, right? But the funniest part about this is a great story. One probably London Irish would definitely not want told, but like the fourth person...

So we had this young academy player who basically was coming in late in the year. Turned out to be Joe Cokanasiga right? So they were looking for a place for him to live and they just couldn't find anywhere for him to live. So Ross Neal, I remember, we had these horrific old mattresses in our lounge which we used to sleep on in between training if we could. Like...

Carl (44:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (45:14)
Springs, sweaty, no one would use them. They were so bad. We had them in the corner of this crack den. And he took a picture and like real cheeky at the time, sent like tweeted back London Irish was like, he can come and stay here. Like as a joke, like as an absolute joke. Next minute, I remember like getting the phone call being like, yeah, he's moving in with you. So.

Carl (45:36)
Yeah, he's at the door.

Oli Curry (45:43)
This house again, it's a two bed house. It's designed just for two. Next minute, there's four of us in this house. Like Joe, bless him. He was just sleeping in the lounge. Like it took so so for us all to get used to because you would go and you'd wake up and you'd go and sit on the sofa. And then all of a sudden this like six, four, like, for Fijian he used to love doing it, would just like pounce out on you. And he'd absolutely like.

Carl (45:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Hahaha!

Oli Curry (46:13)
Yeah, scare the life out of you. So it's that funny thing like they'll be like and it's how rugby clubs get around it. They're like, yeah, but they got housing. So your eight grand is like just like for money, like just all of this. But the housing, like as you said, my God, it was horrific. Like you could not, you couldn't put anyone in that state of housing like nowadays. Like to think that Joe is like played for England.

Carl (46:27)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (46:42)
And at one point London Irish had him like not even in a bedroom. Do you know what I mean? He didn't have curtains. He had like massive French windows next to his bed. Like, and that was professional. That was professional rugby. That was like, you know what I mean? That it honestly blew, like blew my mind. So like from there, like I then like signed my second year at Irish. Again, it was like 12 grand.

Carl (46:43)
Yeah.

Really?

Wow.

Oli Curry (47:12)
So, you know, you're kind of arguing, you're like, you know, you're getting there, like, it just, right, so now you're like 19, 20 on 12. I then think I signed, like, I had like a real funny time at London Irish. I like was lucky to kind of like be like almost breaking through. Like I made my debut in the, in the premiership at 18 actually in my first year.

Carl (47:36)
Mm.

Oli Curry (47:41)
which was, you know, even for me who doesn't really like rugby was just an amazing moment. Like to see your family like so proud to run out, like, you know, it was just absolutely amazing feeling. And for me, because I'd set that goal of becoming a rugby player, like that's one of your kind of milestones you've like grafted towards. And then my second year had a couple more appearances. Like I played like all like the LV cup.

Carl (47:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (48:11)
and then got into the Challenge Cup. So you would get like little bits of money for doing those, but my London Irish career to kind of like finish on that kind of part of it. I know we're darting around, but I'd basically had this mad opportunity to play in the Challenge Cup and the coach, it's when London Irish were like close to relegation.

Carl (48:35)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (48:37)
I'm in my second year, I'm starting to get a bit more confident. I've had a couple of caps, I'm feeling good. And basically they're like, right, over the challenge cup period, if you play really well in that, if you guys do well, you'll get your spot in the premiership. So for me, I'm like, right, this is probably my biggest shot to get that premiership start.

And every young player knows that once you get that Premiership start and if you can get a couple of those, you know, your career just like, you could just change in that moment. So, comes about, I'm in the second row and I'm calling the line out like at 19, 20. We had like a really good run. I think we needed to, we had Agen away. We needed to get like full points and then it meant we got to the quarters of the Challenge Cup.

Carl (49:14)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (49:32)
It's come, we're away, like I had like this insane game, like could not have gone better. Like as a line -out caller, we won like pretty much every ball. We had like two driving ball tries. I'd like had like really good impacts. I can remember one of the old boys who kind of represented the directors was like, you were like my man at the match, had like this mad high like out in France. Like we won the best games I've ever played.

get back, get back to London Irish. We had this coach called Tom Coventry who no one will have heard of anymore. He did one year at London Irish. And basically...

In my head I'm like, this is it. I'm going to get my Prem start. All this hard work will like pay off. And then like get called into the office and he goes, so, no, sorry. So I turn up to training and there's these two random, and you know when players are second rows, cause they're always tall there's these two random second rows just in the changing room. And I'm like, what the hell is this? So.

Carl (50:33)
Yeah.

Bye.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (50:41)
I'm probably at a point of too much confidence at this bit now, but also a little bit of anger, which I was never that great at kind of channeling. So I've kind of gone in, you know, head coach's office, I'm 20, I think. And I'm like, who the hell are these, like those two guys in there? And he's like, I was just about to come and find you. Like, we're sending you like back on loan to the national one team I've been at, Esher

Carl (50:48)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (51:08)
And I just remember being like, what? Like, just absolutely like caught so off guard. And he was like, we've brought in this guy, Ian Nagel, who's been playing for Cambridge. And like, I was like, Cambridge just lost to Esher twos last week. Like, he was a Kiwi guy who obviously knew nothing about like English rugby.

Carl (51:08)
Bye.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (51:37)
And he was like, yes, we've got Ian Nagel coming in, like plays for Cambridge. And I think it was maybe that thing with like Oxford Cambridge uni around the world has seemed to be such a big thing. He thought this guy was going to be insane. So I was like, I literally said to him, I was like, that's not like, that's not good. Like he was saying it to me to be like, he thought I was going to go, great. Like that's a great decision coach. And then the, like, Shane Sexton.

Carl (51:49)
Bye.

Yeah, brilliant.

Oli Curry (52:07)
Like, to be fair to him, he's a very good player, but like, he was at Exeter and he was like, we brought him in from Exeter who were like doing really well in the league. But he was on loan at Cinderford who were like at the bottom of national One like below Esher So again, I've said that to him. Like this is one of my problems. You'll probably realize he's like, I've said this stuff to a head coach at 20. We've kind of like from that.

Carl (52:21)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (52:36)
All I've seen in his head is like, he knows he's fucked up. Like I've basically just kind of like, he's done something thinking like, how good this younger player is going to understand. And I was like, I've basically told him he's made this mad fuck up and he's gone. I've said to him, look, this is my childhood club. Like I had been in and out of there in the academy. And I was like, you're going to let me watch my childhood club get relegated. And he was like,

Carl (53:00)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (53:06)
well, he did not say that well. And he basically was like, well, if that happens, you can say I told you so. And, you know, lo and behold, London Irish got relegated. They told me, they told my agent, they were like, Oli's going to sign like a first team deal. Like, because I'd now, like even by 20, I'd had like three prem appearances, like seven first team appearances and other things like.

Carl (53:33)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (53:36)
For a guy that young in like the second row, I'd done really well. So it kind of got to the end of like the signing thing and all the other Academy players had been signed on like extended Academy contracts. And then they all were like, I remember it so clearly. It was, they were all in the Academy house and I got the phone call asking to come in and I went in and they were all like, you're going to get a first team contract. That's why they've been waiting.

And then I remember going in, it was Nick Kennedy, the academy coach. And he was like, kind of like quite teary eyed. And he just said to me, he was like, Tom Coventry has told me if I sign you next year, he's not going to play you. So he was like, I cannot sign you. And I just remember like having this moment of just like, fuck. Like this was in like maybe May.

Like everyone's been signed to other clubs and stuff like that. It was so, yeah.

Carl (54:32)
All the salary caps been sort of filled. Everyone knows exactly where they are, what they're doing and you're getting that news there, Christ.

Oli Curry (54:37)
Yeah, so yeah, so I remember going back to the house and I was like, lads, I've been let go. And they were like, no, they were like, yo, you're taking the piss, like all of this stuff, I couldn't believe it. And I was like, no, like genuinely, I've been let go. And then that's how I ended up at Rotherham was kind of like, you know, because I'd gone from like premiership to like, not just like champ, like the bottom of the champ, like at Robrum.

And it was just like this mad like blow to my career like you talk about rugby and it just shows how it's not really the player that you are and like my biggest advice to like younger guys is you have to play the game. Like I was always pretty arrogant to the fact that I always felt rugby. People would pick off of rugby. I was like we're playing rugby.

Carl (55:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (55:34)
You know what I mean? Not to sound like Allen Iverson, but you're playing rugby. If you're good at rugby, you should be the guys who make it. And that was just the first moment of like, you need, you've got to play the game. You've got to get coaches on your side. You've got to just say what people want to hear. I wish I'd realised that that early though, because still.

Carl (55:54)
Do you think that's what stifles the game though, Oli? Because players aren't allowed to be themselves and create a brand and create a way of advertising to the masses. I think are we too much like Porridge? The coach is basically, if you don't agree with the coach, you're fucked. And that's it, nobody's allowed to be himself, nobody's allowed to create a brand.

Oli Curry (56:20)
Yeah, I think it all stems from the RFU to be honest. Like they're, they just, they don't want you to do or be anything out of the ordinary. Like I remember my first taste of that was like England under 16s. Like I remember kind of getting trials for that and very quickly, like, cause I went to a state school who didn't really play rugby. We were like,

I got, I remember the under 16 trials, it was basically all the private school coaches were the under England coaches. So they just picked like pretty much all England players. Like the only person I know to really make it through that was Joe Batley. And like, you know, how like fair play to him. Like he was next level rugby player. But if.

Carl (57:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Joe's been on the pod a few weeks before you, mate, as well. So he's what a bloke, what a top bloke. But again, one of them, he's had so many challenges, but he leant on the pod as well, saying that his relationship with coaches helped put him back in the right spot at the right time after his diagnosis and stuff. So as you say, if you've got coaches on the side, they'll open doors, but they don't like the Maverick, do they? And...

Oli Curry (57:20)
Yeah.

And that like I really I quickly kind of blocked that was the first time like this County London Irish It never really came into it too much. That was the first time I was like, like they don't really want me to be here Do you know I mean I was like I was a real gobby like I was known for like swearing on the pitch like, you know Like I was raised to be a real old -school second row by Mike like I would look after my nine and ten by pretty much

Carl (58:00)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (58:15)
doing my best like Bakkies Botha impression, like rubbing people's faces in the dirt, like all of that. And you got to like that, like those private school coaches hated that. You know, they wanted, they wanted those like, yes sir, players. And then I like, even when under 18s came, like I think, I remember under 18s, I might have had a sniff in there, but then under 19s I got a camp.

Carl (58:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (58:43)
And I just remember it was like all these under 16s players were kind of like being pushed under 16s England squad to then under 18s. They already knew each other. Most of them like were like from like that background. They all kind of had connections. Like don't get me wrong. There were guys who like broke the fold, but the best example of how hard it was to do is definitely like Ellis Gange. I remember the first time watching him play at Hartford. He would genuinely sit down.

Carl (58:56)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (59:12)
around 10 players in one run. Like he would wait for guys to catch up with him and sit them down again. Like he was that dominant because he was almost built how he is now playing like under under 18s rugby. And still England like didn't really pick him. Like he he was literally tearing up like the under 18s league and coaches just like they just didn't want him in.

Carl (59:16)
Yeah.

Wow.

Oli Curry (59:42)
And so when I did under 18s and then I did under 19s, cause I'm with that weird age, under 20s, like I just could always tell like I didn't fit in that mold of like rugby player that they kind of wanted. but so, and I just feel like that has just always trickled down from like when you then go into professional rugby, like the rugby club, we always used to get stuck into the media people because.

Carl (59:57)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:00:11)
rugby player it was so boring answering the same questions every week. It was like, how do you feel about playing theme? Like, like what have you been doing to get prepared? It was so boring, like it was so so boring. Like I even remember London Irish that they had a during the World Cup they had an offer from Alan Carr chatty man right? Like one of the

Carl (1:00:26)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:00:41)
massive show, like massive show, not my sort of thing. And the club manager comes up to the academy table and he's like, lads, like, we need you to do this. And we were like, what? They were like, you need to go on Alan Carr Chatty Man, like you're getting picked up like in a cab, like will you do it, but pretty much telling us to do it. And we were like, do none of the fancy players like want to do that? They were like, no, right, that is again, like my...

Carl (1:00:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:01:11)
Memories of rugby I was on Alan cut like it was bonkers. I think it was Nicole Scherzinger like all of this stuff like Mad experience like you can YouTube it like London Irish like chatty man. It's so funny It's like all these really it's like me Joe fucking a scene is there I Don't think Curtis Langdon's there but like it's a young group of like guys

Carl (1:01:21)
Yeah.

Haha.

Oli Curry (1:01:40)
but it just showed that like that would have been a massive thing to do. But the rugby club, because of that wasn't their brand. Do you know what I mean? That wasn't sport.

Carl (1:01:49)
Yeah. Send the... Just send the kids on from the crack den. Just...

Oli Curry (1:01:54)
Yeah, literally, we're gonna do that. Like, you know, at one point, we had a similar thing with, like, KSI now. Like, you see what KSI now is like, if you couldn't ask a kid in the green, like, if you say KSI, he would know who it was. He came and did a video, and again, it was like an afterthought. Like, the rugby clubs were honestly that arrogant. Like, he turned up. I remember he turned up in a Lamborghini to the training ground.

Carl (1:02:04)
Right, yeah.

Massive. Yeah.

Alright.

Oli Curry (1:02:24)
And you had all these old boy rugby players being like, how the hell are you driving that? He must've been 20 at the time or something, 21. And the club again did this like half -arsed effort to do a thing with him. And you could just tell the whole time, it was like they were just so against any other form of media. So when you look now at why they've fallen so far behind.

Carl (1:02:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:02:52)
in the social media world and things like that. It comes down from the RFU into the rugby clubs and being like, we are a rugby team, we do rugby. But at the end of the day, rugby's dying. I think if anyone argued rugby died, you'd have to be living on another planet. I remember after COVID, I know we were talking about money.

Carl (1:02:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:03:21)
My money never really got much better than like 30 grand. And then COVID hit. I remember getting a phone call being like, yeah, so your contract's halved. You know, we're going part time. Like, it just like blows your mind. I built myself up year on year. Like you think like in a normal working world, you go up, you don't get demoted really.

You get promoted, promoted, promoted. You get better at your job. I was doing that with Woodley. And then thanks to the RFU doing an absolutely terrible job of like improving the game, making money, all like marketing, making it decent to watch all of that side of things. I just got a phone call from you know, they'd cut their funding to the championship. We went from I think around 500 grand a year per club to a hundred grand.

Carl (1:03:53)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:04:18)
and then COVID.

Carl (1:04:19)
but they didn't even tell them, did they? They literally just dropped a message and said, by the way, this is the case. And they had to start ripping up contracts and renegotiating with people to try and keep them around, didn't they?

Oli Curry (1:04:29)
It was literally like I was really lucky. I had started my own gym at that time. So that was actually when I had my first retirement. Because I was just like, there's no way. Rugby for me is it doesn't matter how long you're training or what you're doing. The thing that you're essentially being paid for is the brutality on the weekend. Like you're being paid.

Carl (1:04:36)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:04:59)
X amount of money to essentially be in a car crash is how I would put it to people. Like what it does to it.

Carl (1:05:04)
Yeah, on multiple occasions as well, throughout that Saturday or Sunday. It's not like just one, some of them you're probably picking up 10 or 15 car crashes a game.

Oli Curry (1:05:07)
Yeah.

Yeah, and so then it's like, right, I'm going to pay you half amount of money to go through that. You're just like, for me, that's the first time I was like, you know, and I was lucky because I had other things outside. I could say no. I was at Bedford and it was like, you know, the rest of the league, it was, you just look how much it's changed the championship. Like, I feel so, so bad for younger players going.

Carl (1:05:28)
Where were you at the time? Were you at Bedford?

Oli Curry (1:05:45)
trying to make it now because premiership is your only option really but then there's not even as many premiership clubs like you've got three less premiership clubs which means three less academies which also means you've got all these guys with unbelievable CVs who are looking for contracts like and then if you don't make it like at least when I got let go to Rotherham I have Rotherham Ealing Bedford where I could be a

full -time rugby player. Yes, I was making not a lot of money, but I could do full -time rugby, which would give me the best opportunity to make it back to the Premiership. Whereas now, like, you've basically, you've just got to find a club, you've got to find a job, which, in my opinion, is a positive for the players in terms of their life. Like, I think it's good. I've...

Carl (1:06:41)
Yeah, they're long term, yeah.

Oli Curry (1:06:43)
their guys are building careers as well as rugby, but for those guys who genuinely are dreaming and it means everything to them to play professional rugby, the fact that they'll probably never get to experience it and also it will be 10 times tougher for them to become good enough to make that jump. It...

Carl (1:07:03)
Yeah.

Do you think the gulf in class between the championship and the Premiership due to no promotion relegation has got too wide now?

Oli Curry (1:07:15)
I think it's brutal to say because in a weird way I would say there are guys in the championship who could easily play in the Premiership but if you went Premiership teams versus championship teams I'd say that gulf like you look at Newcastle yeah you look at Newcastle like if they can't

Carl (1:07:33)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:07:42)
keep half I remember playing against Newcastle when they were in the championship and they were still dominating the championship like I just think you might have a couple occasional lucky wins by a champ team like even Ealing I think they'd go up I probably think they'd be a bit like Newcastle they but the

Carl (1:08:03)
Yeah. But do you think that takes time for that to develop? Because they've obviously got to get whatever money is floating around because they've obviously released a statement that they want to sort of force the championship teams to only separate what, £4 million between the 12 teams. And then there's 30 or 35 million going to be split between all the remaining Prem clubs.

It's a case of like it or lump it, you ain't getting nothing else. I was speaking with James Shanahan the other day and he was a case of the prem using the championship for loans works. So there's not as much money that has to go there because they don't charge as much. He said, probably the RFU are  thinking, well, they can't be that much we've got to fund. So do you think that archaic way of we're just going to protect that investment and fuck the rest of it is.

just going to be the death of English rugby.

Oli Curry (1:09:01)
Well, I think it's almost like the funniest way because there's two ways of kind of looking at rugby. There's like the product, right? There's the quality you're delivering. Now, underfunding the championship and making, as I said, these guys, like if you're, I'm from Bedford. If you've got guys working as a landscaper all day and then training, like, yeah, like he's never going to play as good a rugby.

he could play as if he was just doing rugby. So the players coming through, which you look at a lot of the England squad and top -prem guys, are guys who have played in the champ and gone up. That's just gonna stop happening. I even remember my last year at Bedford, no players were really managing to break through anymore. And I just think, so you think then,

If you've not got as big a pool to pick from of great players, the level of rugby England are playing, like I think we got very lucky in the World Cup. Like, I mean, as I said, I don't really watch rugby, I didn't watch a game, but all I know is it doesn't take someone to know rugby very well, to know the pool that we got put in. Like I was in Australia at the time, like we just got very lucky in the pool that we were in. And if we'd been in like...

any decent pool, we would have never have made it out. Like, so you think about the product, like the players to pick from, I think is just gonna get worse and worse from not having as competitive a championship. But also, the people who watch rugby aren't all professional rugby players or to do with like the professional game. Like, it would be, that would probably be like the pyramid. And the rest of it is like,

championships, the national leagues and then grassroots. Like your biggest rugby fans are your dads of rugby playing sons who you know they buy

Carl (1:10:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, are playing on Saturdays. You've got no product to view of them unless they completely reshake up and have midweek games and stuff. It's just bonkers. It's not marketable to the actual demographic that are going to watch it over in England. It's mental. Whereas in France, you've got four pro leagues. And basically, if you live in that region, you support that team. And they structure their...

their whole weekends around their local region playing. So all the club game is all played on the Sunday or in the evening so the lads can go and play the game and then get over and watch the local sort of professional team out there. For the home of rugby we're so backward, it's painful.

Oli Curry (1:11:49)
Yeah, well it's again like you look at Twickenham the thing is they just want they just want that like classic elitist they want the big businesses to like buy up like you even hear like a lot i've seen some of the England players like complaining because they had like empty Twickenham like I remember getting taken to a game when I was a kid and that was one of the things that taught me into becoming a rugby player was like going to Twickenham it was

It was such a good experience. I know like you've got games at Twickenham which aren't even sellouts like

Carl (1:12:27)
I think it was like they've obviously they managed to sell out the Prem final but I think it was still 90 quid as an entry ticket. Like how can a dad and a lad afford to take that in the current economic situation unless you're from a certain...

Oli Curry (1:12:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Carl (1:12:44)
class of society in their eyes. And that's where it like, when I started the pod office, the Hooray Henrys, I've got a mate that's in finance that's got a box at Twickenham, he's got a ticket, I'm going to go there and eat some prawn sarnies. It's a whole different way of, the love of the game's gone, it's more we market into people that think they've got money that can pay 10 pound for a pint of Guinness at Twickenham and then tell their mates I went to Twickenham. But...

wouldn't have a fucking clue who half the players are.

Oli Curry (1:13:15)
Yeah, well, I saw like, I laughed, they, the marketing was being targeted at me, but like, for the, what is it, you have like, you're like a Twickenham, almost like a season ticket, you have a seat or something.

Carl (1:13:28)
Yeah, the debenature or something like that, yeah. So you basically have your seat.

Oli Curry (1:13:31)
And I was like, yeah, you just think like, you got, it just blew my mind when I saw that. I was like, most other sports, you look at America, like the waiting list is, you know, you'd have to be put on it as a kid. And then you might, you might get in like when you're older. And I was like, like Twickenham, as you said, the home of England rugby is now having to market those.

Carl (1:13:50)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:13:58)
because obviously people just don't want them and like it's almost like again it's what I talk about being in that downward downward spiral like it's you're just like where is it all going I just think they've like you I do think the defunding the championship I think a lot of the change in the laws and stuff like that like all of that side of things I think how poorly they've dealt with

the whole head injury issues and stuff like that. Like they've allowed that to be like almost really blown out of scale. Like it is a very like real thing, but I noticed in my career doing a lot of coaching, like if I went and coach now, there'd be a lot of parents wouldn't want their kids to play rugby. Like cause the grass root has been like so defunded, so like left behind. The only thing rugby,

Carl (1:14:29)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:14:55)
that people really know about it anymore is that people think it's gonna give their kids long -term brain damage. That's the only thing these parents think when they hear about rugby. They don't think about any of the positives of working in a team, like giving, from someone like me, the amount of confidence and kind of guidance it gave me being in that environment in like...

Carl (1:15:10)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:15:23)
Developing as a person as a character like having good morals all of those brilliant side to rugby that are kind of ingrained in you are just completely forgotten and All people think is it's dangerous Which I think is

Carl (1:15:34)
Yeah.

There's nobody from the RFU out there trying to promote the positives. They're just, I think it's a case of they make out that rugby is all inclusive. We accept anyone and everything. But there's nobody out there actually just trying to break those barriers of what the public have seen. Nobody's out there pushing that. It's down to the grassroot clubs to try and get hold of whoever, whatever they can. Do you know what I mean? It's just, there's no leading from the front. There's no leadership within the RFU that that's our bubble.

Oli Curry (1:16:00)
Yeah.

Carl (1:16:08)
If you don't like it, you can fuck off basically. That's kind of the attitude that I see from outside in. I don't know how it's ever going to change. Unless they completely pull the rug from them and change the whole process. But most of them are protecting their jobs, so that's not going to change.

Oli Curry (1:16:21)
Yeah, I think...

I think yeah, you'd have to get rid of most of the people at the top to be honest and You know, it's that it's that classic like old boys club, isn't it? Like they're just trying to keep everything the same Let's keep everything the same fight anything new. I even laughed I saw Was it an article recently about this influencer who plays in like lower levels rugby and it's like influencer makes more

Carl (1:16:35)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:16:59)
from his influencing than professional rugby players make. And you're just like, again though, rugby kind of similar to what I said at London Irish, they kind of look down on it and they're like, that's just nonsense, that's just nonsense. And you just think how mad that they can't get their head around. I see clubs like Bristol, they're great with their social media.

Carl (1:17:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:17:29)
they've kind of led the way. Other teams have tried to copy, but it's slowly getting there. But I think that for them, it's something that would be like a change that all clubs can do. I definitely think the social media side of things they should work on, because it's free. They've got the kind of things that people want to half watch, like have some interest in. I definitely think Robben's club needs to start pushing that.

Carl (1:17:56)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:17:58)
They need to start getting back out into their grassroot rugby clubs and linking up with that more. It's those sort of things that I think you've got to kind of like almost reroute it, reroute rugby from like the ground up and then it will start to be successful again. But I'd hate to.

Carl (1:18:17)
Do you think because of how widely spread the Premiership clubs are and because there's like, as you said, obviously I'm down for Portsmouth, you're sort of Winchester way. London Irish was the closest, but that was still what, an hour and a bit for us. You've got Quins other side. You've then got, that's pretty much it for Prem clubs. Then you go over to obviously you got Exeter. You had Worcester obviously covered that off, but you had Worcester, Bristol, Gloucester.

Oli Curry (1:18:32)
Yeah.

Carl (1:18:45)
all in sort of a close proximity. You had Wasps when they were in Cov, then obviously originally over sort of the London side, you got Sarries on the north. Then you got randomly nowhere, you got Newcastle, and then you got Sale thrown in the mix. There's no way of the Prem clubs being able to sort of have a fixed pot of this is our feeder circle, and this is we're gonna go out and try and support them. I know that's just how it's naturally the...

they've got promoted, but how does that, how can that be used to support grassroots when you've pretty much got maybe, well, three or four counties of all those club rugby trying to fight to get the attention of one Prem club? And there's not enough players to be able to get through a Prem club from that sort of player pool. It's just crazy. At least with football, you've got four, five,

pro divisions. Everyone's pretty much within probably 30 mile of a fairly professional club. So they've got a way of targeting something, but British rugby, English rugby is just, I think it's too.

disjointed as you said you can't go and be part of a bigger club and a bigger process unless your face fits you know a mate that's got a mate at a private school or something stupid like that do you know what it's I feel kind of lost in it.

Oli Curry (1:20:17)
It's all like, yeah, it's all that like, kind of right, like, I mean, I just think elitist is like the perfect word for rugby. Like, they, and they, that's how they kind of, they just want to fund just that top level. That's all they want to care about is that top level. But I do think you're right. Like you look at football, like all levels are like so successful. People are so close to it.

Carl (1:20:28)
Mmm.

Oli Curry (1:20:45)
at like wherever they are. Like, and I'm always, I think if you want to look at anything, you always got to look at America for how successful their sports are. Right. And it's like, they've got, yeah, like, you know, that you could, they've got all their, their big teams in like all their different sports. But the thing is there, they've got such a well funded college system, which is arguably more popular, than like a lot of the NFL teams, like,

Carl (1:20:54)
Great

Oli Curry (1:21:13)
You think about how many people they have turned up to a college game. Like, I just think that's what, that's what spreads. Like they've got that. Everyone's got something close to them. They can be a part of, and then they'll get into it at that level, support them, and then get an NFL team on top of that. And I think that's the thing rugby, most people in the rugby community, they'll have their local team and then they'll support.

Carl (1:21:35)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:21:43)
then they'll get into it, support a Premiership team and go from there. But because the local teams are dying so much and like the leagues below, like because they are just so like massively underfunded, like not like rugby's poorly supported in schools and things like that. Like it then means someone doesn't get into it at that lower level, which means they're never just gonna.

Carl (1:21:48)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:22:08)
you know, you you get lucky, but they're never going to randomly start supporting, as you said, a club which is an hour and a half, two hours away, like, like just off of a random thought. So yeah, it's a, as I said, I wouldn't want to be getting in rugby. Like the last bit of rugby I just played at Chinnor it was mad seeing the young guys.

Carl (1:22:33)
Because they just got promoted, didn't they? So were you part of them getting promoted or were you there just before?

Oli Curry (1:22:36)
Yeah, so that was after my, I think after my third retirement, I said I'm never going to play again. And then on the way back from Australia, just had a phone call from Nick Easter. Basically their second row had signed in America. So they were kind of going to be stuffed for like half a year. So I was like, go on then, let's do this. Like I think there was maybe like second of the time.

I'm obviously looking to get promoted a team. I'd actually gone on loan a couple of times during my career. so yeah, went and did, went and did that. And that was an amazing, amazing experience. And you talk about like, like what we're saying about bringing people in. Chinnor when I've been on loan there would have been maybe like 400 people at a game when they start winning and like getting towards like,

Carl (1:23:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, bye.

Oli Curry (1:23:35)
I think we had like two and a half thousand at a game, right? And Chinnor is a, they call themselves the village. Like they're just a local team who like slowly made their way up. They're the village and they're fans of the villagers, right? Like next minute, like they've been promoted. Like it's this huge thing in like we had an open top bus. It was bonkers, right? I'm really like, no one's going to turn up, right? I'm a bit of a, like you can tell about rugby, a bit of a pessimist. I was like, no one's going to turn up.

Carl (1:23:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's brilliant.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:24:04)
this. Honestly, the pubs were full, we went down the high street, people were there and it just showed that like, if you have a bit of money, I mean, this money was not from the RFU, it was from the owner of Chinnor Vickers, great bloke, put a bit of money into a local club, they've done well, they had promotion like the, you know, we said like,

Carl (1:24:11)
Well, let's see.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:24:30)
this is the highest level of promotion you can get. You can't really get promoted from the championship to the Premiership. So we're like, this is the highest promotion. And you look at like that whole area, people were getting into rugby and it grew the sport like there. But I remember talking to young guys at the club and I was kind of like, you know, like, and it was like, I was in the Wasps Academy and then that kind of like that went.

Carl (1:24:43)
Yes, Colly.

Oli Curry (1:24:58)
you know, I was at London Irish Academy and that just went, I was at Worcester Academy and that just went. And like, thank God there are clubs like Chinnor where there are people putting in their own hard earned money to create a good business model that can then give these players the support that they need. It's just like, it's that funny thing and it's a way that RFU kind of get away with what they're doing. Is there essentially...

Carl (1:25:09)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:25:27)
Doing so little that I guess then it's encouraged other people to like take control and do it But that's not right. Like that's not how it should be because in the long term, they're the one who bet the ones who benefit from it but you know, Chinnor was just such a good example of Someone putting a little bit of investment They were really good with like the social media they were doing but also how they ran the business

Carl (1:25:34)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:25:54)
doing different events, all of those like match days, getting kids in, all of that sort of stuff. And then they got promoted and they're insanely successful from that. So it can be bad.

Carl (1:25:55)
Yeah.

How do you reckon they'll go next year? How do you think they'll get on?

Oli Curry (1:26:12)
I think they do well. Nick Easter is just like, he's actually, he's an annoyingly good coach. He's a brutal, brutal bloke. He is just what you get. There's no kind of fluffiness around it, which in rugby is really tough. You get coaches who might tell you one thing and then do another. Whereas Nick Easter, like...

Carl (1:26:40)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:26:41)
he'll let you know where you stand sort of thing. And he's got all these little tricks up his sleeve and things like that. The man lives for trick plays. So I think that he'll do really well. They've got Craig Hampson, another great coach there. And they've just got a great bunch of players. Again, kind of touching back on the Bedford Point, they're a club.

Carl (1:26:50)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:27:08)
who rather than investing in all the nonsense and the GPS's, the analytics, the facilities, they've invested in culture. You invest in culture, you get players who just want to play for each other. And that's what we had. The run we had in, I think we had one loss, we had one loss, we won every other game, we were winning by like 80 points.

Carl (1:27:14)
Yeah.

Yes.

Oli Curry (1:27:37)
just because that's such a tight knit squad. But I think they'll do well, like, you know, because of the lack of funding as well, I definitely, and it might come across a bit brutal, you do see a bit of a drop. I randomly played a game for Bedford after I'd retired, because they had no second rows and I was still in that area. I had a mad week. I played for Worcester.

Carl (1:27:41)
Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:28:06)
on the Wednesday against Gloucester in the Prem Cup. I had played for six months, right, not trained for six months, like I said I'd retired. Played for Worcester in the Prem Cup on the Wednesday. I played Bedford v Pirates Away on the Saturday. And then by the Saturday after that, I played a game for Chinnor. So I kind of got to see, yeah, honestly, I was dead, like I was dead. But like,

Carl (1:28:27)
Not bad for somebody retired, I think.

Oli Curry (1:28:35)
You just I got to kind of see like all levels you could argue obviously I was cranked up like it wasn't that but like You know, you still had a top elite full -time guys and then you had this kind of champ champ new second Part -time model and then we've got this yeah, like national one like really two nights a week model And it was like in the champ there obviously they are like you got some great players there and they're all doing that doing as

Carl (1:28:46)
Yeah.

Oli Curry (1:29:04)
well as they can but that level of the teams is definitely dropped again because there's only so much you can do as a team with three nights a week or two nights a week which as I said that's the thing that then makes that gap between them and the Premiership so much bigger but in a good way of that the gap between Nat one and Champ I definitely think is is shrinking. I like to think Chinnor will be able to go in.

Carl (1:29:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Bye.

Oli Curry (1:29:34)
they'll be able to beat, you know, Ampthill , Caldy, Cambridge, like, you know, those teams who are in a similar model, similar part -time model, I think that they'll be able to beat against them, definitely. And then, yeah, you just got to be smart in that league because obviously you've got your Ealings which is always the worst week when you know you've got Ealings. But yeah.

Carl (1:29:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, it'd be brilliant to see.

Yeah.

Mate, it's been an absolute honour having you on, Oli. I think we could easily go on for hours and hours. No, no, no, far from bored me, mate, because this is exactly what this pod's about. We want to lift that rock and see where we can hopefully change the game. Even by just talking about it, hopefully it opens other people's mindsets to there is a game at...

Oli Curry (1:30:06)
Yeah, so open your ear up.

Carl (1:30:26)
below the premiership promised land, that sort of thing. So as you said, there's some great quality players, some great clubs down there. It's a shame that it's not advertised as well as it should be. And yeah, we're actively trying to do that on this pod and show hopefully move forward, mate. But Oli, I...

I think we could go on for hours. I'm sure there's probably at least a round two in this as well, mate, at some point. So I know you've got things to do. So I really appreciate everything you've done to come on in, mate, and we'll keep in touch and hopefully get a round two for everyone when we get some reactions out of this.

Oli Curry (1:30:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, no. Thank you very much mate, thanks for having me on. See you.

Carl (1:31:11)
Cheers Oli.

Carl (1:31:13)
Well, that brings this pod to an end. If you made it this far, I just want to take a moment to thank you for listening right through and express my gratitude for following yet another episode of Ruggling Through the Leagues podcast. In today's episode, we heard many tales from Oli Curry. As I said, this one could have gone on forever. More than happy to try and get a second episode lined up with Oli because I barely think we've touched the surface with.

some of the anecdotes and the stories of where he'd been and what he's done. He's an absolute character, an absolute top bloke and does not pull any punches, which is exactly what we need, those sort of characters in rugby to talk about the injustices, the bits that you don't see behind the scenes, the glamour, if you can call it glamour, of becoming pro, but not getting where you should or could have been.

He's played with some great players. He's obviously got the share of the affectionately known crack den with an England international. Absolute revelation to what actually the game can be and where it could go and where it still is. Obviously, Oli's been in and around the scene for the last decade.

Being able to get onto the European scene for Oli and then

have that rug pulled from him because he was willingly, willingly vocal with his words and his opinions. Unfortunately, that is a common theme within the game as well, that it doesn't seem to allow people to speak up and have a voice at times. If your face don't fit, you're out. So it's hard to do that.

I've absolutely loved that one. So was great to have him on and more than happy to try and line up another one if everyone else loved it. Next week we have got the amazing Lexi Chambers coming on who's already broken four world records for multiple challenges. She's now embarking on a challenge.

This is not just any challenge. This is a challenge to go from John O Groats to Lands End in an unmodified wheelchair. But whilst Lexi's on that journey, she's going to stop her for multiple rugby clubs to hand over balls and sign and just to shine a light on the game as well. So perfectly fitted for this. Managed to get Lexi lined up. So the actual...

event that she's doing starts on the 26th or 27th of August so we're going to start promoting it through that week. Obviously after after Olly's episode we'll get that promoted and then the episode with Lexi will come out on the 30th of August so right in the middle of her challenge so we can keep abreast of all the situation and obviously be able to give an insight onto why and

how it's all going to work because I received the email with the list of clubs and the journey and I was absolutely flabbergasted. So it's an amazing, amazing guest and an amazing, amazing challenge ahead to be a five -time world record holder as well will be phenomenal. So

that's our next episode. So once again, just want to say a massive thank you to you all for joining us and thank you and goodbye.