Rugby TTL Ep 36 - Josh Navidi_Audio
Speaker: [00:00:00] "Well, you better get your passport. You need to be in Exeter for 7:00 o'clock in the morning." Packed my stuff, obviously grab your boots and all that. Couldn't find my passport for the love nor money
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast. As you can see, this is probably the first one in our new studio. Finally got it sorted, and we've finally got this podcast episode sorted as well. It's taken nearly a whole year to get this finally run in the diary. Josh, we obviously met at the Heart of Wales Sevens last year.
Speaker 2: We are now, what, a month short of Heart of Wales Sevens this year. You were guest coach for the, the game against the Shane Williams Invitational. We won't discuss the score line, 'cause I'm pretty sure he had many more ringers in it than most of the guys that were pissed from the Flaming Unicorns. How did that all come about?
Speaker 2: Obviously, the Flaming Unicorns shirt in the back there, how did, how did that all [00:01:00] come around, and your involvement within, within the game and within the, the charity? 'Cause that's not the only one that you've been involved in, is it?
Speaker: Yeah. So, um, how we started really was, um, getting invited to, Heart of Wales to DJ- Mm
Speaker: um, with Jordan. And then he was like, "Oh, do you wanna be, um, guest coach?" Not knowing anything about it. And then all of a sudden the first year was a bit like, "Oh, what's going on here?" How, how much of a good craic it was, and I was back there last year. But like, meeting guys like Stu, and all the work they put in is amazing.
Speaker: And it is tough, it is hard. You're back to back with charity stuff and, um, like the graft that people have to put in for it. So much goes on behind the scenes that you don't notice, and then when it actually comes to fruition, you know, they get everyone together, getting players there. And at the end of the day, they're there for a c- a good craic, a bit of rugby and, uh, on the booze, and-
Speaker 2: You hung up your boots, uh, due to...
Speaker 2: It was a n- it was a neck injury, [00:02:00] and concussion, and stuff like that. It all sort of accumulated. And the Flaming Unicorns are a s- a men's mental health charity. Obvious- When you kinda finally had to make that decision, it was not quite on your terms, but you kind of had to do it. Was there some dark times there, or did you, had you already come, come to terms with it, and-
Speaker: It, uh...
Speaker: 'Cause it was my, it was my neck that I finished on. It happened out in South Africa, um, on the summer tour- Came back, obviously let it settle and before preseason had, had injections in, um, done my physio. Wasn't getting better, like probably two months down the line and they were like, "Oh, we need to look to operate you."
Speaker: I w- I was like dead against it, but speaking to the surgeons, they're like, "Right, you need it operated." So I had the operation. Felt good after it, um, 'cause I was like driving to training for 45 minutes just holding the steering wheel and I was getting like tingling down my arm. Um, so I had the [00:03:00] operation.
Speaker: That kind of went, but like it was like co- something always constant. So I used to bench press like 130, 140 kilos comfortably for a good amount of reps, and I was struggling. I remember when it was coming to the end and I kind of knew this was like doing it four months down the line. I was like, I had like 100 kilos on the bench.
Speaker: I'd get like two or three reps out and then come off it, and then like my ne- like my arm would start, like, just start hurting. My neck would stiffen up and I kind of knew then like this isn't, is not completely right. Went through the same cycle, eased back, tried to go again, and then it was kind of the same thing, getting back to 100 kilos and then it was still the same.
Speaker: And then sat down with the surgeon, and the surgeon told me. And I was kind of like, "I'm never gonna step on a rugby pitch ever again." Like, I'm not gonna have that feeling of doing, going out match day, crowd, doing the competitive nature of the [00:04:00] game. And it was kind of like, I had 30 seconds to myself and I was like, "Right, onto the next thing," 'cause that's how I always used to do with my rehab.
Speaker: I was always, you get injured, like you, yeah, you can moan about it for an hour or two, but then you, you gotta look at the next step forward where obviously getting your shoulder right or yeah, go, is kind of like, well, you can't do anything about it now. You just control the controllables as, as you would say.
Speaker 2: That's, that's quite a swift turnaround as well, though. 30 seconds to- ... end, end a career on- Yeah ... from being a li- o- on the Lions tour, summer tour to South Africa, to 30 seconds of like- Yeah, yeah ... "I'm onto the next one." Like...
Speaker: Yeah. I, I... It, it's 'cause pr- probably it was such a long period. I had basically Christmas off and then we came back in and they literally went, "Right, go on on the field you go."
Speaker: And someone just bumped me, and I was like, "Yeah, my neck again," like, like just- Wow ... touch rugby we were doing. And I was like, "Yeah, something's not right here." [00:05:00] So, um- It k- I like, it kind of probably that helped 'cause I knew at the back of my mind, but I've always... My dad's always said to me, "Every game can be your last."
Speaker: So it's kinda how I played and I knew I gave everything to it. Like when I was younger, I never used to drink. Um, obviously the boys used to call me the human mattress 'cause I slept so much just getting my naps in. Okay. Um, you miss like social eve- events at times. Like say you got a game on Saturday and something's going on Friday.
Speaker: Sometimes you'd be like, "Oh no, I can't go because-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: you got a game." So like even if it's for dinner and little things like that, um- So, like you do sacrifice a lot and kind of like, if probably I did end up on one cap, um, 'cause I had a big spell with that, what, four years without get- well, till I got my second.
Speaker: If I did probably have one cap, it probably would've sat with me a bit different. But I was lucky enough to obviously get, what, 30-odd caps, win [00:06:00] championships, Grand Slams, go on a Lions tour, which was kind of like the s- the cherry on the cake for me.
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of English fans that are probably quite glad you retired, to be fair, mate.
Speaker 2: 'Cause, uh, that, that seemed to be the one game that you, you come alive. Not that you were an exceptional player from, from what e- everyone, what used to be able to watch, but those English games. Did you... Did that reignite just a whole new different level in you? Because you seemed to be over every ball as an English fan.
Speaker 2: I was thinking, "For fuck's sake." Like, it was, it was so hard. Oh. It was just like-
Speaker: It was a weird one, 'cause every time we played England and Six Nations when I was... Obviously, 2017 I kicked on. Yeah. It was kind of always fell, like, around that fallow week time. So we would play, like, two games. Wales are always known for being a slow starter.
Speaker: And then- Yeah ... we'd have the fallow week, get beasted, and then we'd play England in that game. And it'd always be one of them that we had such a build-up for it. Yeah. Gats would be saying, "Oh, the English boys ain't [00:07:00] doing this. You're the fittest t- you're, you're fitter than them," and all that. "You're working harder."
Speaker: And it'd kind of be, like, a mentality thing. It's the rivalry, isn't it? But it's- Yeah ... so good. Like, on the Lions tour, like, I'd met loads of boys that had played previously, like Sarries and stuff. And, uh, you know the bo- boys well, but when it comes to, like, doing your country, it's a completely different ball game.
Speaker: And, uh- Yeah ... yeah. It, it's special. It's such a good atmosphere. So close, like, travel, do you know
Speaker 2: what I mean? Yeah. We pro- we probably need to touch on the current situation in Welsh rugby then, 'cause it's, it's not, it's not the glory days, but it's... there's glimmers. There's glimmers of that, it being reignited.
Speaker 2: In my opinion, I don't think it's on the pitch that's the issue. It's behind the scenes that's causing more of the, more of the problems. You know, I think you've... It's just a, it's a confidence situation. What's, what's your viewpoint from being within Wales? Obviously not having to be selected, you can probably be a bit more honest now.
Speaker: Well, to, to be honest, I I'm, I'm glad I'm out of the... I'm not, I [00:08:00] wouldn't put that in. 'Cause, like, the year that the boys have gone through, I think, like, it would've been so tough. Going from four regions, talk of three, then down to two. Do you know what I mean? Is it, is... It was so much noise. But some players, say you thought, or your region was safe, you might vote, oh, yeah- We, we'd happily go down to two and then when your region's on the line or your club, it's a bit different then.
Speaker: But it's had a huge effect on what's happening on the field as well, 'cause you... It's, it's a constant thing, 'cause every week something new is coming out. There's rumors, this is going on, that's going on, and it's obviously been put on the back foot now, which they're sticking with for. I don't know if they still got plans.
Speaker: I saw something in the press yesterday that s- s- an ex-player leaked something. I genuinely don't know. It's, it's, it's kinda... I feel like it's just the boys you've, you've... And even backroom staff as well-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: is, is massive 'cause you got your physios, you got your coaches, you [00:09:00] got kit guys, you got everyone there.
Speaker: And even, like, to do the commercial side, you got people there as well. So there's so many people that, well, are on the line with that. And, like, I, I was a Bridgend boy, so they got rid of R- um, Celtic Warriors where they merged Ponty, and it kinda sits sour to, to this day with me. But, um, it'd be the same with any region now is 2000s, it went perf- like they went to the re- um, Ospreys, Scarlets, doin'
Speaker: They went to that regional style with five clubs and then they dropped to four, but that's, I mean, it's, it's been 26 years or 25 years of that-
Speaker 2: Yes ...
Speaker: where it's a different fan base now, so it could be a 25-year-old going, "Yeah, I'm, I'm an Ospreys fan, I'm a Cardiff Blues fan, I'm an Dragons fan." Yeah. If you lose one of them, you've lost the- Core
Speaker: fan and, and you're starting again. Like, it's gonna take that time again, and at the end of the day, if the clubs are doing well, [00:10:00] it's all about mo- money when it comes down to it all, and that, that, that's the hard thing. 'Cause at the end of the day, you need, I think it was like 8-million-pound budget with 60, 70 players to be competing in, in Europe, like top flight Europe.
Speaker: So- Yeah ... it, it is, it is tough. When you look at Leinster, their, their squad's ridiculous, but you, you look at the Wales squads, they've probably got 40 players in each region, and I don't know, say 5% or f- or t- like six, seven players are academy players who are their first year with the, with the seniors. So it, it, that, like it is difficult.
Speaker: And at times with Ospreys, like, like they were having, they were, they didn't have a team to go head-to-head against, so they were asking uni boys to come in. Where when I was playing, you had Martin Williams, Xavier Rush, Mamamo Tika in the back row, and then us academy boys, if we got one, two reps in training, we'd done well.
Speaker: We'd be on the reserves, so we'd be the fif- 15 going against [00:11:00] the, the starting 15. So it's, it, it, it is changed, and I always say if, if money, like someone did come in and have loads of money and could, like, bolster the squads, like grow the squad, it would change it. But, uh, uh, times are hard. Rugby's changed since COVID.
Speaker 2: It's four regions as well that you need to try and fix. It's not just... Because there's, there's no, you can't just change one region in Wales, 'cause it will then, everyone will kind of sort of still flock a little bit towards that and weaken the other three, and then that becomes an exp- exponential issue as well, doesn't it?
Speaker: Yeah. But you look at it, like the, you want your best players starting all the time, but-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: I remember when I was coming through that when Phil Davies w- was coaching, you play three games and have one week off. Yeah. So we had, like what Ospreys used to do a lot, if you played, I think start two games, like you feel fresh, you can- You can get your niggles right, you can get your conditioning, you can get your [00:12:00] weights and what you need to work on.
Speaker: And then that goes in-into the, the Welsh team, man. So you're, you're fresh, you're fit, you're strong. But you look at, I think Alex Mann played ... I think he's probably played every Cardiff game last season.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And then he's played for Wales as well.
Speaker 2: And he's probably going on a sum-summer tour as well, and the Nations League and everything.
Speaker 2: It's-
Speaker: Yeah, so i-it's ... That's, that's probably where it, it comes to hinder. Because you can't work on your fitness, your strength, what you need to take into international rugby. And I remember we used to, always used to have a week off after Six Nations, because it's such a long campaign. You get hammered, and then you need that recovery week to get back into your, your, your Cardiff Blues and all that.
Speaker 2: So, Colin, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge you on this one. Players moving abroad and the cap limit. Do you agree, or do you, do you think that you've got to scrap it while you rebuild Welsh rugby?
Speaker: The hard thing is, like, it [00:13:00] kept me in Wales. So I nearly went abroad, and this is, like, if I didn't start playing for Wales, I didn't want to give that up.
Speaker: I wouldn't go in now I'm unhappy, having a couple of caps and moving abroad. So I always, like, I always wanted to put the red jersey on and play in a World Cup. That was always my dream. And some players do make that decision and then regret it, um, which we've seen happen with that 60-cap rule. But it-it's been dropped right down because the num- obviously the, the bigger cap boys have left, and they have to try and get everyone and every- not everyone and everyone, but to even get- Yeah
Speaker: the players that ha-have moved away, um, like, uh, Jarrod Evans in Harlequins. Doing ... He's, he's ... He didn't have that, that many caps at the time, so they need to reduce that to ha- to keep those players. And it's one of them. It, it's difficult, because you want to keep control of your players in the Welsh regions, because then you get looked after physio-wise and stuff.
Speaker: I know for a fact [00:14:00] I had problems, like, with my hamstring and stuff. If I went to play in England or France, I was getting flogged every week. So doesn't matter where you go, it's always gonna be that case. But in Wales, you get looked after. If you've got a bit of a niggle, they might go, "Actually, yeah, we'll hold you back this week.
Speaker: Don't... We won't play you." And then it means you're not getting injured for longer. And obviously, Wales is obviously the, the ambition.
Speaker 2: But that must be quite hard, as you said, though. The squads have depleted, and Alex Mann's having to play every... Like, that, that idea and process has completely changed because there isn't the player depth, there isn't the player pool available for those Welsh clubs to safeguard the asset for the, the international team.
Speaker 2: So you're kind of in a catch 22 situation now, aren't it? Like
Speaker: Yeah. It's, it's, it's a difficult one, and there's never a right or wrong answer, but- You see, I know, um, isn't ... Well, South Africa used to do it. You have to be playing in South Africa, which [00:15:00] lets the country control what the boys do and, like, how many minutes they get in a week or how many games.
Speaker: You can ... You know when it's coming into Wales cap. You can see, like, boys getting pulled off here- Going out ... and stuff. Yeah, so, like, just not playing as many minutes. Which is the right thing at the end- Yeah ... like, doing. That's what, what you want. And if we can keep every Welsh playing Wales and being competitive in the league, that's, that's a massive thing.
Speaker: It's like Cardiff now. Like, I would've loved to be in the position in the playoffs where they are now to, to try and move forward with it.
Speaker 2: Rugby just needs a c- a good Wales side back. Like, that's ... It, it's kind of integral to how world rugby runs, is a good Wales side is always there to upset teams.
Speaker: Results haven't gone our way. If you- Mm ... if you watched Wales, you can see, like, uh, in the autumn, you could see we were getting better. We played- Yeah. I can't remember the last game we played and, like, doing ... I think it was New [00:16:00] Zealand, and we, we got battered. But, like, all the boys who played in England have gone back.
Speaker: That's South
Speaker 2: A- South Africa, wasn't it? It was like the
Speaker: 70-pointer-
Speaker 2: Yeah ... they put on you, yeah.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, 'cause yeah, the All Blacks who played really well and played- Did done really well, yeah ... a fantastic game. And, um, y- you could see, like, glimmers. And if we finished on that All Blacks game, you'd been like, "Oh, yeah."
Speaker: Yeah. Like, looking good to go in the Six Nations. Then we played South Africa. Didn't l- obviously it didn't go the best. And then coming into the Six Nations, I was like, "Right, if we just picked, like, two, two wins up and there's performance there." And it showed at the start. We played, like, England, Fr- uh, France.
Speaker: We were miles off it. And then just too many penalties, like, little things like that, which you never ... I think it was, like, 20 penalties and, like, you always say keep it below 10 penalties.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: You know, internationally, you can't do it. But then that Irish game, just the performance the boys done defensively.
Speaker: Ah. And then l- leading into the other games, it's just you saw glimmers. And I think going into [00:17:00] this Nations series now, um, do you know what I mean, hopefully we see more of that and the boys develop and growing. 'Cause it's a new coaching squad. They haven't had loads of time with the boys, and you think, like, how many games internationally you play.
Speaker: Like, the, the goal is World Cup. So it's having these games now, finding the combinations. And I know the last three games, it was the same team picked for the first time since Tandy's been in, and it, it shows that he's getting to know his players. And I think coming into this summer part now, um, and leading into Nations, uh, series, I think that is massive for Wales, and hopefully we see a bit more of what we sh- We have seen in the Six Nations.
Speaker: 'Cause that, that's... I know the boys are like, like, "This is our benchmark. We wanna go above that now." So-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: they'll always be thinking, "Oh, what can we do better?" Like, "Where can we improve?" And I know th- the, the great coaches there, and I've worked with Danny and Jockey, [00:18:00] um, at Cardiff, and the level of detail is outstanding.
Speaker: Worked with Tandy in the Lions. Um, and Dan Lydiate now, and he's a top bloke, and he... You'll fit, like, you'll fit right in. So-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: he's a really good people person, but, like, just he's always a good bloke, like, being around the changing room. So I think you'll, you'll give that energy off. And defensively, he's one of the best in the world.
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, he's... Yeah, he's another absolute menace as well. Warren Gatland then. You were under him for quite a period of time, obviously, with the Lions, the f- with, with Wales. Did he need to come back?
Speaker: I think at the time it was the right decision, um, 'cause anyone who came in wouldn't, wouldn't have known majority of players, how the players worked and all that.
Speaker: That would've been a hard thing on, like, how, how Welsh people are. 'Cause, like, do you know, the boys will work. Like, you go out, tell a, tell them to run for an hour, they'll run an hour solid, do you know what I mean? And run into brick wall. So he, he understood that, but I think at the [00:19:00] ti- like, before World Cup, he was probably the right man to come in, and I think it was difficult, like, after, because there were so many people.
Speaker: Like, you had Dan Biggar retiring, finishing. Like, George has finished. Alun Wyn. Like, Ken Owens. Like, Jonathan Davies. Like, the... These are players who have been there since probably, what, 2011? Even longer than that. So, um, it, it's so hard, because you've got a new squad coming through. Do you know, we had some tough games, and then it, it, it...
Speaker: Do you know what I mean? You... It's an uphill battle then.
Speaker 2: Is he still, still revered as much as he is in Wales? It's not tarnished his reputation?
Speaker: Yeah. I... No, it's like, there's a massive board in, um, the s- um, the barn, we call it. Um, it's got the gym, indoor, um, like, kind of indoor training facility. Yeah. Um, and, uh, is a massive red, red board with all the, the championships you won, [00:20:00] Grand Slams.
Speaker: And it... Like, you look at it and- I don't know how many of them he's got. There's probably majority, but, like him coming in and what he's done for Wales is this is what we expect, and I think what people expect as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: So that's why probably it's been so hard to go through the times we have recently because we expect it as a Welsh person.
Speaker: Yeah. That, hang on, if you look at a couple of teams previous, you, you do have lulls. I mean, South Africa had
Speaker 2: it.
Speaker: Exactly. Um, you do, you do have- New
Speaker 2: Zealand had it. They've all had it. Yeah. Everyone's been there. England are constantly on one at times at the minute.
Speaker: Yeah, so, like you do have it, so you need to like...
Speaker: You, you, you kind of do take a step back to move forward, and I'm hoping. I'm, like this is... Like I've always, always been positive about, about the boys on the Welsh team. It's like we have got the players there, it's just doing the perform... Like not the performance, like just getting results over the line.
Speaker: 'Cause y- if you win by a point, that's what [00:21:00] you look at. Oh yeah, we won that game. No one remembers it. I remember when we beat France out there for the 2019, uh, Grand Slam, and Gats came in the changing room after and he's like, "Mate, boys, I know we didn't play well, but we won," and that's all that people look at.
Speaker: And it shows that from that first game, we played terribly, started really bad, to the last game against Ireland for the, um, Grand Slam decider, it was like another level. And I always say that's the best game I've ever played in. It was like one of those games that everything went our way. Like Ireland didn't have an answer for anything we were doing.
Speaker: Like looked at the Irish pack like 20 minutes in, and normally when you look at teams, you kind of know when they're deflated, and they were just deflated. So, uh, yeah, and if you go from that first game to our last game, it's completely different side.
Speaker 2: How does that feel winning a Grand Slate, Grand Slam?
Speaker 2: So I was there when England managed it, uh, in Paris as well. They obviously done it. Dylan Hartley had a, [00:22:00] a nap for 20 odd minutes on the pitch, and obviously England come out. But actually being on the pitch, being part of that, what, what goes, what, that, the amount of emotion and just, is it relief? Is it exci- does it kind of go, is it a roller co- how does it, how does it go?
Speaker: For, uh, for that game, I think it was weird because I've never played in a game that's gone one-sided, but it was a lot of chat in the week of how difficult it is to get a Grand Slam. And I didn't realize that until we lost i- in COVID to France out there in the last couple of minutes, and how close you come to doing something special.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker: And that's what- I remember Alan went banging on about all the time, like how close you can come to doing something special, and it, it is such a hard thing to do to win every game. And like that, the way we'd done it in 2019 was, wa- was special 'cause like we didn't play [00:23:00] well against France. Led into Italy, got through that.
Speaker: That England game, the roof blew off the stadium when Josh Adams scored that That try in the corner. I just remember, I was like, "I can't hear a thing." You're, like, running back and, like, there's, like, a couple of minutes left and we're running back, and he was like, "All right, boys. Next job," and all this. And you couldn't, like, you couldn't hear each other talk 'cause it was so loud.
Speaker: And then played Scotland, weirdly enough. I got food poisoning, like, early on in the week, so I didn't- Wow ... I, I wasn't in training that much, and I played, and I was, like, deflated and on nothing, like, energy. But we got through that game. And then played Ireland at, at home, and there's all this chat in the week about having the roof open, they're gonna come here, dominate us.
Speaker: Like, do their proper I- like, the old-school Irish game. And literally, we... It was completely the opposite. Yeah, it, it was just... It was amazing. Like, it's always something I'll look back on. Like, how lucky I was to be in that position, doing... I've got two championships, [00:24:00] a Grand Slam, and was close to getting another Grand Slam.
Speaker: But it's like being a, a sport.
Speaker 2: It's, it's
Speaker: re- You win some, you lose some.
Speaker 2: Exactly that. And how crucial was to have a leader like Alun Wyn throughout that period? He must have been, like, the glue. I know you, you, you had exceptional talent across the pitch, but to have one leader try and bring all of that together.
Speaker 2: It's easy for talent to sort of split, but to bring, to gather everyone. Obviously, I know the Welsh mentality, et cetera, but he's probably one of the ultimate captains. If you're gonna select a captain in your, in a dream, a dream 15- Yeah ... he's, he's probably gotta be up there. Even from an English man, that really hurts me to say.
Speaker 2: But, like
Speaker: It, it's, it's kind of like when, um, like, like, you hear stories and I didn't realize. I, I used to mess around with him. So, like, he would always be, like, the first to every drill. You'd sprint, like, you'd finish one drill, he's, he's sprinted into the next. Really? So I used to just, like, try and, like, egg him on and beat [00:25:00] him there and stuff.
Speaker: And that, he used to be my... Like, if we'd done fitness, so we had this bag drill. I would always go on with him, um, 'cause no one else would, because he'd be flat out from the start. I remember my first home game. It was 2017. I remember it was 75 minutes gone. I'm, I'm gone. Like, legs are shot, trying to chase this kick down.
Speaker: And then Alun Wyn comes tearing past me, and I'm like, "How is he doing this still, 75 minutes?" And, like, it kind of, like, always, like, sat in the back of my head. I was like, "I should be doing that." And, um, he's just, like, very good talker. Um, knows how to, like, motivate the boys. Knows the game very well. And, um- He just led by example.
Speaker: He, like, you wouldn't have to do too much. He was a stalwart once even before I got to, like, 2017 when I started playing a lot more, and it was one of them that you respected him anyway. And he, he was one of them that, I remember, you, [00:26:00] you've... it's a clip flying around where Jake Ball and him had a little tussle in a unit session, and, uh, he was on the bench.
Speaker: I'm pretty sure he was either on the bench or not playing that game.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And he was, uh, he was causing absolute murder in the session. Like, he's, he was like... But basically that's why the fight broke out. And, uh- Yeah ... if you watch, watch the clip, like, the only good punch that lands on me 'cause, uh, me and Ken are trying to break him up, and I get whacked in the face.
Speaker: Um, but i-i-it's just, that's how... He was always competitive and I, like you look at, like, a lot of the boys at Dan Biggar, they've got that competitive edge, and it's in training, and they always demand the standards. It's so high, like, internationally, like, everything's on the money. Like, yeah, you do have the odd bad session, and then it'd be like, "That's right.
Speaker: Off the field. We're done here. We're not... No more. That's enough." And then I've been, I've had, like, the worst session we've ever had, and we've beaten, like, Toulon for Cardiff. Like, it, it- Yeah ... it works weird. [00:27:00] So there's no one when to call it a day. But you had so many boys who have been there, done that for a number of years, and well respected in the squad that they all kinda like, it was a- Like, you'd say your senior playing group, it was- Yeah, it was like a unit, yeah
Speaker: it was big. There's many... It was, it was a lot of m- there was, like, many captains in that one squad when I was doing it. So, we- Yeah ... you'd, you'd bounce off each other. Like, even when I used to captain for Cardiff, like, I, I w- I wasn't a big talker, so... But then you got your 10s, your nines, and stuff who'd do- They don't
Speaker 2: shut
Speaker: up
Speaker: talk a lot. But that, that's it. You've got, you've got the right people to obviously drive your attack, drive your defense. So, it's kinda led that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that's... As you said, Justin Tipuric, and obviously Biggs, and the- there was enough around, like as you say, become like a leadership unit. It just goes through
Speaker: the whole squad, do you mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. George,
Speaker: like, he's been there for so lo- like, doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh, probably the greatest [00:28:00] Lions try ever, probably from George, George North as well. Yeah. So lo- obviously, Gats... I, I, I caught one little bit there that you said when Gats said you were having a bad session and he, he, and he pulled, just said, "Right, well, that's not the first time I've heard it from a few, few players."
Speaker 2: Is that, is that quite common for certain coaches to say, "Right, we're just not gonna keep training dog shit. We'll just get off the pitch and go again later on," or?
Speaker: Yeah. I, I don't know why, but Gats knew-
Speaker 2: When it wasn't
Speaker: right ... how to get it right. How to get it right. So, like, I knew we would start six... Like, you'd start the Six Nations.
Speaker: You'd look, like, you always, we always used to have a session plan put up before training, so you always see, you used to look at it, at how long it'd be, and it'd be like 55 minutes, 60 minutes. And you'd be like... Like, they, they, they, they intense, and we wouldn't stop. We wouldn't- Yeah ... stop and talk. We'd do the chat after.
Speaker: It'd be like bang, bang, bang, go, go, go. And then as it came later on, and at times you'd just pick weird times, right? It'd be like, you'd put something [00:29:00] up and it'd be like 25-minute session. And like, you'd have five minutes, 10 minutes before, and you're like, "Oh my God, we're training for a half hour here, and we're done for the day."
Speaker: And like, it would change your energy. It was weird, 'cause you- Wow ... I always used to look at it and go like, "Oh, we've only got a 30-minute session. Let's go." Like, boy, it would change the boys' energy levels.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And he got that so right so many times. But then he knew at times when to, like- Switch it ... train.
Speaker: Yeah, so you have your fallow week leading into England. Normally I'd, I'd have a niggle 'cause, um, during those times, 'cause the boys would get flogged. And, uh, you, like, his sessions where you've got probably most half the starters- Who have played the first two games, like, on the sideline doing off-feet conditioning and then the boys who were in the squad getting flogged doing runways, um, and like triangles and stuff, and you're like just watching this and you're like, "This is horrific."
Speaker: And there was one drill that Gats done. He had six def- it was like something like six or five [00:30:00] defenders be like 12 players, and if you dropped the ball you'd go into coat hangers. Um, or Heinie Mullers they call them, but it's like coat hangers. Literally the boys would... Like that's the thing, the boys would be scared to drop the ball.
Speaker: Yeah. And if it was like poor, if it was like a poor attack he would like, "Right on the line," off you'd go. And you just, you knew you have to do it, 'cause like that week you'd get hammered and then the following week- You're ready ... you'd, you're ready to beat England. So he, he, he was very good at that.
Speaker 2: That Lions call-up then, how does that go for a mere mortal like, like myself?
Speaker 2: How does it, how does it go? Do you, do you kind of get a bit of a, a bit of a nudge and somebody says in the corridor, "You're, you're gonna get a, a letter," or do you get a phone c- Yeah ... how, how does that all go? And-
Speaker: So,
Speaker 2: um- Does it, does it seem real? 'Cause a lot of players have also turned around and said they thought their mates were ringing them up to take the piss.
Speaker 2: Does it... Did, did you think, "This ain't, this ain't fucking real." Um, so, so- "Somebody's trying to pretend to be Gats."
Speaker: Yeah. So you, you get a, a letter and I think it's like- [00:31:00] Yeah ... 72 players selected. Right. So only like maybe say 35 end up going on tour or what have you. Yeah. So I obviously didn't get selected to the initial squad, 'cause they obviously went to Jersey and done a camp there and then played, um, Japan up in Scotland before flying to South Africa.
Speaker: And the weird thing is I was coming back from a, a shoulder injury. I had an operation and then I was doing, you go up, up the bar and they got this machine where you test how strong you were. So I was, I'd just done that. I was walking back to my car and then- As I was walking past, I seen Gats, and he's like, "Oh, just make sure you keep that shoulder all right, 'cause there's a long tour."
Speaker: 'Cause, like, at the end of the day, I was like, I didn't have the op 'cause I knew there was a chance going on- Yeah ... the Lions tour, and it was enough there, like, to get it strong to be able to go on tour. And then it could, it could've been all right to, like, two, three years, but [00:32:00] the first game for Cardiff, I dislocated it , so, uh, it went straight away.
Speaker: But my call-up was, I was watching, uh, the Japan game in the house. Um, my, my wife was out at an all-day brunch. Mm-hmm. I'm sat in the house on my own, um, just watching the game, and Alun Wyn goes down with a dislocated shoulder, and I thought, "He's out." Like, he looks like- Yeah ... he's proper dislocated. He's out, the way he's holding it.
Speaker: Tiprick goes off, and can't see much about it, and he look... I thought he's maybe had a, a head knock, and he's just... they've pulled him off. Um, but later on, like literally an hour later, the boys had, I think, obviously finished the game. They've had food, and I got Alan Phillips, Thumper ring me, who I worked a lot with.
Speaker: Uh, he was team manager of the Lions, and he was team manager of Wales. I answer the phone. Signal in my house is terrible, and, uh, I moved to, like... I kinda knew what was coming, but I, I didn't wanna anticipate it. So I was like, [00:33:00] went to my front door where I knew I'd have good signal, and I answered, and I was like, "All right, mate."
Speaker: He goes, "Yeah, I'm good, mate, but not as good as you're gonna be." Mm-hmm. I was like, "Oh, why's that?" And he's like, uh, "Well, you better get your passport. You need to be in Exeter for, like, 7:00 o'clock in the morning." I was like, "All right. Okay." Danny's in mad panic now. I've rung the wife, rung my family. Um, so I'd gone to pick my wife up from Cardiff, came back.
Speaker: She's steaming.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Had a f- all, all day on it with the girls. Um- Yeah ... so I get back, pack my stuff. Obviously, grab your boots and all that. Couldn't find my passport for love nor money. Oh, no. Couldn't find it anywhere. And I always keep it in one drawer, and it lives there. Every time I come back, straight away, in one drawer and I, I forget about it.
Speaker: We played that France game, uh, in that co- the COVID game that we lost. Yeah. And obviously we've... That was our last game. We've obviously gone the beers after. We were- [00:34:00] Yeah ... gonna... I saw back, I was like, "That's the last time I've had my passport. Where would it be?" And this is two, three hours later. I've turned the house upside down.
Speaker 2: Jesus.
Speaker: Anyway, went and just put, put my hand in my jacket I was wearing. It was the first pocket I tried. Pulled it out, and I've had my passport. I was like, oh my... This is, like, 1:00 in the morning. I've, I gotta be at the Vale for think it was like half five, 6:00. Meet Adam Beard, 'cause he got called up for- Yeah
Speaker: for Alun Wyn. And then Richie, we had, uh, a taxi down to Exeter, got on a private jet up to Scotland, and then met all the boys. Met the- And I'm still, like- Wow ... all over the shop. Like, not even, it hasn't even sunk in. 'Cause you see the boys, "Oh, yeah. How's it going? Are you all right?" You know, and all this. And then, anyway, straight on the bus.
Speaker: Straight away to, um, South Africa. And then until I get, like, in the hotel in Jo'burg, put my bags down, like, sit down, go, "I'm bloody on a Lions tour here now." Like, it, it, it kind of just didn't really [00:35:00] sink in. And for me, like, Lions wasn't, like, for... I always wanted to win a World Cup. That was my dream, and I never thought about Lions in the same way maybe some other players did.
Speaker: But, like, it was kind of like, for me, it was, like, something special in my career, 'cause I never thought about it. But it was like the, the cherry on the top kind of thing. And-
Speaker 2: Mm ...
Speaker: to be out there, I know it was COVID, but watching it, like, the last tour was amazing. To see all the fans, the sea of red. But to be around the boys that were all on that tour, they're all top blokes.
Speaker: And- it was a bit different. Like all we could do was play golf and drink. So it was, it was, it was kind of a, like an old school kinda, kinda tour, which is, that's all, that's what The Lions is about, is keeping that tradition alive. And if you're not playing on the Tuesday or Wednesday game, you can have a couple of beers and vice versa.
Speaker: If you're- If you play on that Saturday, you, you have beers after the game 'cause you're not, know you're not playing the next. And [00:36:00] when it comes into test time then, you kinda obviously try and ease off it. And then when you kinda know you're not in that playing squad, you just go, you get to do whatever you want really.
Speaker: But yeah, it was special and it was amazing. Like, the first, the game that I was meant to play nearly didn't go ahead 'cause a couple of boys had COVID. Um, so we were like... I was like, "Just get... All I wanna do is run on that pitch. Doesn't matter if it's five minutes and they call the game off. I, I'll be happy to get on- Yeah
Speaker: that pitch." And, and ended up getting on the pitch, and it, it, it was just, yeah, something special and it's, it's hard to write, really.
Speaker 2: Do you still have the shirt? Did you manage to keep, like, the Lions shirt that you wore?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, I- Wow ... I still, I, yeah, I still got all, uh, all my shirts. The, the mad thing is, like, 'cause you collect shirts, you swap shirts and all that.
Speaker: I got- Yeah ... an attic full of jerseys. I got, like, Cardiff jerseys- Yeah ... all out at my attic. I've never had them framed, and I'm like, "Yeah, I need to get them framed at some point." Yeah. [00:37:00] But it's coming around. I don't know where to put them.
Speaker 2: Well, you've, you've obviously, uh, we'll get onto this now. You've obviously, your, your job role's changed slightly.
Speaker 2: You've now a DJ, you've got a bright pink bar and stuff like that. Yeah. Maybe that's the perfect place for them to, to go- ... at the back, back, back of the bar. 'Cause I'm sure the missus won't, like my wife, won't let you put them round the front room and stuff like that. They're probably an allocated spot in the garage or summat.
Speaker 2: So you need to find somewhere that you can put them on show.
Speaker: Yeah, I thought about putting them on the bar, but I was like, "How can I fix these down so they just don't get stolen?" 'Cause it's, the upstairs is open and all that. I thought- Yeah ... like, I, I have thought about it. Um, but yeah, it's, it's different. I mean, I, I was lucky enough with DJing, like, around, like, 2016, '17.
Speaker: I was like, "I need to get something a little bit more out of sitting on my PlayStation for six hours playing Call of Duty." So I ended up buying my DJ decks. My, one of my best mates now, he used to DJ in Cardiff, and 'cause I was going out all the time- [00:38:00] Yeah ... when I played my, generally I played my best rugby going out all the time.
Speaker: Um, he, I kinda met him and then, um, literally he taught me, like, just the basics. And then from there it's kind of got me, like, to mean, I've been all over with work. Obviously- Yeah ... part of Wales, like, meeting some amazing people. And, uh, it's given me, instead of, like, the general Q&A, like, people ask me, "Oh, can you DJ event?"
Speaker: I done the, the k- launch for the, um, Commonwealth Games for the, um, for Wales, uh- I saw that the other day ... the other day. Yeah. Yeah. So in John Lewis. That was really, really good. It's, like, little gigs like that that- I, like, yeah, you had Ken Wal- Ken Owens doing, uh, the aisle walk. But, uh, it's kind of special to actually be able to do that, provide the music.
Speaker: And, um, yeah, I've done some cool events. And then the bar was, like, one of them that got offered to me on a night out. I was like, "Well, how much do they want for it?" They're back and forth, and it ended up in my garden, like, [00:39:00] a week later. So lived there for about... it got delivered about August, and then lived there till, like, June, and then I got into S- Sapphire Gardens for the, um- Cricket
Speaker 2: and that
Speaker: yeah, the cricket. So it was England at the National, um, was the first gig. And, uh, we only had half the bar running because the cooler packed up. So, uh, yeah, it, well, it froze up, so it went down to, like, minus, I don't know, 20. Oof. But yeah, so, uh, it wasn't the be- like, you learn and you move forward. So, uh, nah, it's, it's, it's gone well.
Speaker: Yeah, like I'm, I've been fortunate enough to, to, like, just kind of step out of rugby and, and move forward. 'Cause it, you, you do find, like, "Oh, where do I find myself?" kind of thing. And I, I've always been active off the field, but, you know, I used to buy and sell cars, and I, like... they'd go wrong, and it's kind of like, one of those things, like, "No, I can't.
Speaker: I can't do this." Yeah. Like, it, it, it's hard, like, 'cause people obviously spend [00:40:00] money. Something goes wrong with a car, you don't expect it. Like, if you've got a brand-new car- Yeah ... it's all right. But I've been in a car that's done 50 miles, and it's gone wrong, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: It was kind of one of them. I was like, "This is too much of a headache."
Speaker: And then luckily the bar took off at a- around about the same time. So, uh I'm, I'm lucky enough and then the wife's caught me doing DIY around the house 'cause, uh, the bar's on events. So, uh, yeah, it's kinda not an everyday thing, but looking to g- like, got another unit now, so looking to have one that's more mobile than four shipping containers.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I saw, I saw the other day that you were picking up another one. So how does that... And obviously why, why the pink? Where did that sort of- Um- ... the 'cause they're brigh- they're bright pink. For those that haven't seen them, they are bright pink shipping containers with you and your DJ decks and- Yeah
Speaker 2: there's, there's like a brand piece there. Where did that, how did that come around?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, it wasn't even about brand piece. So pretty little thing had them before me. Um- Oh, okay ... so, so a [00:41:00] guy I knew used to, um, be in AV Asia, Cardiff, and he, like, we were out, like, just having a couple of drinks, food, and he showed me and I just saw value in them.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker: So I was like, "Oh, yeah." I knew I could probably sell them for a little bit more than I paid, so I was like, "Oh, I'll, I'll, it'll be easy. I'll get into Winter Wonderland. I'll do this, do that." Yeah. And it wasn't as easy as that, and I kinda learned that quite ki- kind of fast. So that's why they lived in my garden so long.
Speaker: I didn't touch them. So three weeks before the first event in June, it was, um, had the meeting with Sophia Gardens, and were like, "Oh yeah, we want it." So I had... There was no bar fitted, so it was set up as a cocktail bar, so it was just like ice buckets. The flooring was rotted and re- needed to be repainted and stuff like that.
Speaker: So in, within three weeks I had to get all that done, and by the time, like, the first week goes, like obviously waiting for materials, stuff like that, and then the painter didn't turn up to paint the bar and it was [00:42:00] moving probably... I was like, "I'll give myself a week just in case," 'cause I've never set them up, put things together.
Speaker: Mm. So he didn't turn up on the, like, Saturday, so I had a quote from someone else and, uh, I rang him and I go, "Mate, I'm, I'm desperate here." And luckily he was doing a job down the road and so-
Speaker 2: He was like happy days, painting like that.
Speaker: Oh, no, he's, he's actually done more work in the house. Yeah. I've done a walk-in wardrobe.
Speaker: Yeah. But he sprayed them all, so, uh, uh, yeah, luckily enough he was like, "Oh, mate, I'm working down the road. I'll, I'll come down there, spray that, and then I'll, uh, I'll go do that and keep doing that vice versa every day." So within two days it's all painted.
Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Painted up. Got delivered and then, like, I had to put, like...
Speaker: It's like decking around. Never put a deck and it took about an hour and a half, like, me and my mate lifting it up, and he's a big bloke now, but he's terrible on the tools. And I was like, "Mate, I'm never gonna have you back again." Like, my best mate from growing up.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker: And, uh, he's, like, picking, like, the pallets up, like the [00:43:00] decking's like us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: They pr- they're probably like three meters wide. Like, they're, like, really heavy and, um, he's, like, picking it up from the corner and I was like, "My bi- my back's gonna break now." So it's kinda learning, like, how everything went together and, like- Yeah The full, when you pull the full thing up is a bit more tricky than just stacking the, the bar.
Speaker: So it's kind of like f- I was figuring it out as I was going along.
Speaker 2: So, like, a lot of people have just assumed that you got somebody in, and then you just turn up, turn the DJ decks on, make the music happen, and-
Speaker: Yeah. Best- The DJ is the easy bit. You just press play.
Speaker 2: So was, w- was that always a passion, music, or did you just literally fall into DJing as well?
Speaker 2: Like, did that just come- I- ... as a by-product of being out in the clubs all the time on the piss?
Speaker: No. So, like, obviously I never used to drink. I used to go out sober and stuff. I'd only drink off-season. But, um, it kinda, like, stemmed from when I was younger. I had my iPad, I had, like, DJ software on it. Oh, wow.
Speaker: Didn't know what I was doing. Like, I, I kinda knew how to, like, [00:44:00] match the music with beats and that. Like, I didn't even actually... Like, somehow I worked it out. Um, but I weren't any good. It was hard. Like, it was really hard to do on the iPad. And then, like, I used to play guitar growing up, but I wasn't good.
Speaker: Like-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: I, um, but I was always, like, into my, like, punk rock, um, pop rock, stuff like that, Sum 41 kinda- Yeah ... like, all that. I never used to listen to dance music. My brother's, like, full on, like, Clubland mad when we were younger. Yeah. And getting ready for school, he started playing at 7:00 in the morning.
Speaker: I was like, "Turn that, turn that noise off." But it's kinda, like, full circle. It's full circle, 'cause, like, the older stuff now, like, goes to off really well DJing. It's kind of like I probably play more dancey stuff. Like, I love hip hop and R&B, but you gotta play what the crowd wants. So it- Yeah ... I kinda play a mixture of it, like hip hop with a dancey beat behind it.
Speaker: Um, but yeah, it's kind of like I, I've always been into my music. Um, but it's one of them that I didn't realize [00:45:00] where I'd be today. Yeah. Trying to get in some of the gigs I had, like, doing, doing Principality Stadium in the middle in front of 70,000 people. I'll never get a gig bigger than that in my life ever again, I don't think.
Speaker: It was just, yeah, it was... I remembered doing a soundcheck the day before. I was like, "Right, I need to make sure my USBs work."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Obviously, they, they make sure all the lines are good. Um, like, again, sound through, like, quality and all that. And I, I stood up and I looked. I was... They put the stage in middle of pitch just to do a rehearsal.
Speaker: I look up and I'm like, "What am I doing here?"
Speaker 2: So I, I think this is probably r- the perfect time to finish up, 'cause I, I, I, we- I'm gonna be at Heart of Welsh Sevens. Hopefully we've got something big planned to, to sit down again for there anyway. If you had to relive one, one match or one moment in your, in your career, what would it be?
Speaker: I don't know, there's so many, it's hard. Like, you know, [00:46:00] Bilbao with Cardiff, um, winning the, uh, Challenge Cup, like, doing my shoulder five minutes in. Like, it'd be nice- Yeah ... to play the full game. Doing your first cap, like I had the worst first cap ever. I broken, uh, broke my nose, got knocked out. It was horrendous.
Speaker: Lost to Japan. It was the worst first cap you could ever have. Um, and then you go back to that 2019 Grand Slam game.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, and then when I got injured, uh, in the quarterfinals of the World Cup against France. Like, if I got through that game and then played against South Africa, like, I'd love to have played in that to try and...
Speaker: Like, we'd just lost.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, and it's one of those days where it's, it's one of my type, my type of game. Um, and never know, like we could've played England in the final, but it is, it's so many games that you go back to. Even I go back to when I was in school, um, we played two finals in the [00:47:00] Welsh. Um, you play, uh, year nine and year 11, and we lost both of them.
Speaker: I always since to this day and when I see my coach who coached me through school, it's like the, the team we had, we should've won both years, but we bottled it, basically. They were good team, they were a good teams, but-
Speaker 2: Yeah ...
Speaker: there are so many, but yeah, that probably 2019 Grand Slam, or I'd go back to when we played France and we lost.
Speaker: Like-
Speaker 2: Mm ...
Speaker: doing, to try and have that opportunity to win another Grand Slam again. Yeah. I still don't know. There're too many. I'm like-
Speaker 2: No, I know. So- Can you
Speaker: have a top 10?
Speaker 2: Yeah. The, my- I, I think the only common theme is you were injured quite a lot, to be fair. Like I think that was the-
Speaker: Well, that was later.
Speaker: That was later on. I was all right until 2017, then I got injured all the time.
Speaker 2: Uh, Josh, really appreciate your time, mate. And, uh, I'm glad we finally got this one in. Hopefully we can get a, another one at Heart of Welsh 7s sorted as well. But for those that, for those that haven't booked their tickets for Heart of Wales 7s, [00:48:00] what can they expect?
Speaker 2: What, what is, what is it about that tournament that keeps bringing you back every year?
Speaker: Oh, I think it's ab- absolute carnage, isn't it? Like, dude, there's so many sports going on. Like, during the, the setup, the DJs, the acts. During the bands that they have. It is, it's, it's quality. It's such a good... Like I, this is my third year now and, like, doing, like we're t- we're going up for a social with our t- touch team.
Speaker: So it- Mm ... is, is one of them. It's so m- like, it's so big. They've done such- Yeah ... a good job and yeah It was amazing.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize how big it was 'cause I, I got, "Oh, you, can you come play the sevens on the Sunday morning?" I was like, "Yeah, no worries." And they're like, "It's on the pitch." I'm, uh, I'm like, "What pitch?"
Speaker 2: They're like, "The one in the far, far field." I was like, "How many fields are there?" Yeah. They just... I was like- That's crazy ... they go through this little river, don't you? And then there's another whole pi- I'm like- Yeah ... I was lost. But-
Speaker: The ba- the, the lorry, innit? It's like-
Speaker 2: That's it ... got the lorry. The lorry tunnel over, over the river, yeah.
Speaker 2: But- Yeah ... [00:49:00] yeah, Josh, really appreciate your time. For everyone that's joined us today, make sure you go get your tickets for Hearts of Wales Sevens if you haven't already. If you haven't, haven't got tickets, just, just go. It's one hell of an event. Obviously, you get to s- get to meet Josh. DJing on the Saturday night as well?
Speaker: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I do two nights. Yeah, I do two nights. Yeah, two nights.
Speaker 2: Make sure you join us, uh, on the next episode. We are hopefully gonna have this finished, and another amazing guest lined up. But for those that wanna make sure they can follow Josh's d- uh, music is on, uh, on Instagram, everything like that as well, under your, your Instagram handle?
Speaker 2: Oh,
Speaker: yeah. It's... Yeah, I don't, I don't do any music.
Speaker 2: It's everywhere. I can
Speaker: explore it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's everywhere. Hope you enjoyed this one, and, uh, join us for the next one. Cheers.