Carl: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues Podcast. This one is the second to last in the series, so we've saved the best till last until the next big announcement that's gonna come out after this one. But we are here with two of the masterminds behind the Aegean Rugby Festival.
Carl: Sadly, we couldn't make there this year due to multiple factors in our, in my personal life, unfortunately. However, these guys managed to put on another great event, not as big as we, as, as we hoped or planned due to Trump and all those crazy things that go on around the world. However, we are here to discuss even bigger plans for next year.
Carl: So we are joined by Dave and George. Gents, for those that aren't fully aware of who you are, do you wanna do a little introduction each? Obviously, sh- probably best start with George. You are the, the-
George: Yeah ...
Carl: effectively the main man that actually spoke with me to, to get the conversation underway, and how we ended up here really, mate.
George: I am George. I've been play rugby for many [00:01:00] years. I stopped playing about 10 years ago, and since then we developed a, uh, business around sports tourism, of which in 2021, I think, we built the first Aegean Rugby Festival, uh, hosted. And then my partner and I, Mike, who can't make it today, was in retrospect building part of rugby community also, but in retrospect we were building on a vision of bringing- Rugby as an international level, um, event, with all its plus and minuses, whatever, at the time, and then start building year after year so that something can develop into Greece, and why not use Greece as the main platform, whether the beach, et cetera, et cetera, and introduce that as another event around Europe.
George: So yeah, we built this event, uh, about five years ago. Uh, last, uh, two years prior to this year, we brought in David into the equation. David is a fantastic Scotsman, [00:02:00] to keep it at that. And so we have built a really cool team between us. It's actually a big team, but the main guys that are on the operations are David, Mike, and myself.
George: Uh, two years ago, we introduced beach volleyball to the event, so that's why it became Aegean Sports Festival instead of just Rugby Festival. Uh, it's still, in essence, three different parts. Uh, as an intro, I think that's, that's all right, and then we can keep going. David?
David: As George has said, I joined about two years ago.
David: We both play at the same club. Uh, I came on, uh, to help out with the logistics, with the rugby bits, and trying to bring in, you know, try and make it a bit more international. Last year, we had a huge tournament, which went fantastically well. The idea was essentially to create rugby here in Greece so we can improve the level of rugby here and sport, as well as showcase how amazing Greece is.
David: You know, everyone knows Greece is a popular tourist destination. Now let's make it a sport [00:03:00] destination too and combine together. 100%,
Carl: and obviously I, I stumbled across the development of Greek rugby. I know there's obviously been many factors of Greek rugby being what Greek rugby's developed over, over the years, and now the re-entry into, into Rugby Europe.
Carl: Obviously, we had, um, Eleni on who discussed that level of it from a federation point of view. You guys are on the ground as well. Obviously, Eleni is, but you guys on the ground, the, the development of Greek rugby. Uh, uh, 'cause you both are, are Attica Rugby, correct? Mm-hmm. So obviously, great club. Obviously, had a really good run in the, in the tournament this season as well.
Carl: But Dave, you're also part of the development of the, the youth setup as well. How's ... How is Greek rugby thriving underneath the, the, the reinvention of Rugby Europe and that, and that sort of involvement again? I
David: would say, at least from, from my standing point as a foreigner, because as you can tell by my delightful voice, I am not Greek at all.
David: Um, it's in its early stages. It's slowly [00:04:00] developing. It's gotta take its small hurdles as a small federation, emerging nation, and working from that. It has been lucky that it has developed from clubs that were there in, under the previous regime, and that's how Attica is kept going, because it had that foreign base, it had all the expats still there, and their kids playing rugby.
David: And that's essentially how it's been going, is the academy went really well this year. Went to Monaco for the fifth year, I believe, running, and it was the first time we won games. We didn't come last in the tournament, which shows that there is development in these kids. And Greece, sporting-wise, as I've can seen, there's potential here.
David: It just needs to be a bit more nurtured, and it needs to take time. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day, and it ... Slowly getting there. It's getting better and better little by little, and that's all you can
Carl: ask for. Which obviously, events like this, it's not j- ... It's a proven model a- a- around the rugby setup as well.
Carl: [00:05:00] So a lot of, a lot of rugby nations have had events like this. How crucial is this to help the current term of rugby in Greece, and the long-term development of it as well? What ... Was that your main focus of trying to help bring that- That one focal event to, to Greek rugby and say, "Right, we can develop this out and this is how it cascades down."
George: Well, the vision, uh, the vision was, uh, was and still is to make this a, a world-renowned event and destination place for everybody. I mean, if you think about it, if the event goes well, and we've been investing, it's gonna be the sixth year, hopefully coming into 2027, this is something that local teams can benefit.
George: Uh, this is something that we're in development with introducing the, the youth division. We'll talk about that later for 2027. And this is something that can be besides ... This is why we didn't call it a tournament, or we didn't call it, uh, games, or we didn't call it... It's a festival. [00:06:00] So a festival has that aspect to it.
George: It's competitive, surely. It's also fun to be there, and it's also family-based, if that makes any sense. So you're there with your family. I mean, 15 blokes coming in to have a, a nice weekend party, yeah, that's still a family. Uh, the youth program, having kids develop into that. So I'm gonna take it a step further and go backwards, actually.
George: Our development through the Greek Federation has been excellent. I mean, we've had very good relationships with them. Uh, Eleni has been very helpful. The, the president and everybody involved of the federation have been very helpful o- on, on this. And everybody's just doing their part with a common goal, which is to promote Greek rugby and, uh, make things better.
George: Going to somebody that really screwed us over this year, I'm gonna go to his saying. You know, MAGA, M-A-G-A. Uh, we're gonna say, uh, Make Greek Rugby Great Again. That's the idea. So I think we all share that common, [00:07:00] uh, common goal. Yes, we might be members of a local club. Yes, we might be members of Greek community, et cetera, et cetera.
George: The people that are gonna get going further are the guys that are gonna wanna make Greek rugby great again in every different level, right? Ours might be that tournament. Somebody else might be their local team. Somebody else might be the national team. So everybody's trying to do their thing, but collectively it's gonna be something bigger, you know, that we should be looking at.
George: And that's the idea and the vision of the event, too. So we might be going back to the event, uh, stating that things are Getting better, et cetera. We might had a hiccup last year, but the year before we had 21 teams, and then 18 of them were internationals, right? Coming in from North America, Middle East, uh, all over Europe, et cetera, et cetera.
George: This year we already have a couple of teams signed up, and that's because every year you have something wrong or something not happening the way you wanted it, but at the end of the day, collectively, the outcome is gonna happen. And yes, it is bringing [00:08:00] youth into the program, bringing seniors into the program, bringing all types of groups into this, uh, festival, of which will be a benefit for Greek rugby as a whole.
George: What can we control? Just our event. So we're gonna try and do the best that we can do for our event on that scale.
Carl: Yeah, 100%. So w- we obviously, we, we had the Heart of Wales 7s organizer, Jordan, on, and he, he ... They've been going, I think it's nearly 16 years, I think he said. It's, it ... And obviously they had the COVID situation in the middle of, of their
Carl: And they've naturally grown and progressively grown each year, and added bits organically rather than overstretching himself and just trying to chuck money at a situation. They've, 16 years for an event that's grown bigger and bigger. They've added netball, they've added s- football, they've added hockey, they've added all these other bits and created that festival situation, like you've said.
Carl: Those, those events are able to sort of gather pace and his, his one crucial takeaway [00:09:00] from what he, he was saying was retention, was keeping the teams coming back. And that's what you managed to find this year, was your core group of clubs and teams that attended was still that, that retention. And keeping that retention high is how you're able to grow it organically.
Carl: When obviously the world shut down, effectively you kind of had your COVID situation this time with the, with the whole travel situation going into the Middle East and everyone not wanting to
George: travel and- Well, Carl- Carl, it was, it was crazy Yeah We got, you know, all these contacts, "Yes, let's go. Let's do it."
George: You know, we've been, we've been on this from last year in September. We're excited and we even got a couple of bookings early. We're like, wow, 2026 is gonna be, yes, granted the last time in Chania, but it's gonna be huge again. You know, we got this vibe, and then suddenly Trump decides to do what he's gonna do.
George: And we're like, "Buddy, no." It's, it's not cool, man. Don't do that. We got in touch with Mike Mulroy from Sevens Referee, who's awesome. We're, like, in love with [00:10:00] this guy, and he's like, "Guys, you don't understand what's going on in the world. Teams are canceling left and right." And we're like, "Yeah, don't worry, Greece is gonna be fine.
George: They're... Nobody, nobody's bombing Greece. You know, everybody's in love with Greece. They all wanna, uh, come to Greece. You know, they don't wanna ruin what we have, the islands, you know?" So we're thinking, "No worries." And then suddenly cancellation, cancellation, cancellation, cancellation, delays, cancellation.
George: We'll let you know, blah, blah, and this and that. And we're like, "Oh my God. Carl, help. Mu- uh, Mike, help. Uh, David, everybody, let's get on this." You know, and at the end of the day If we are losing 40% of the teams, and we only have just starting other events, the Milano Sevens, for example, that, uh, Mike told us, or other, uh, Algarve, uh, uh, events, et cetera, that lost an equivalent, yeah, because they have a bigger pool of teams that are
George: have been going on. We're only on the s- on the fifth year, so we're like, "Oh my God, what's gonna happen?" You know? And then, [00:11:00] yeah, so that was ... That was a tough year. Like, '26 was ... We, we pulled it off. Four men's teams, four women's. Yeah. Uh, a lot of local help. The Cretan Gunners, fantastic club to work with. Um, we had a lot of work with the Youth of Dope, which is the local production team, uh, and a co-organizer from
George: It was a mix of co-organizing with, uh, Youth of Dope and Cretan Gunners, and Dimitris Katsafrakis, who's actually an ex, uh, teammate of mine from the national team in the past. So we have a really cool setup there, you know. So, uh, but yeah, we all had to, uh, excuse my French, but haul ass to, to, to keep pushing.
Carl: Yeah.
George: You know? Is get on it, you know, try and get some hope.
Carl: Massive c- do- doff of the cap to you guys just to put, just to get the event on, 'cause there's a lot of events that have, have been pulled this year as well. It's not like there's ... It's not just you guys. It's a lot of events have just had to be pulled 'cause people canceled flights, and there was the costs that was just ri- like, there are a lot [00:12:00] of, a lot of sevens, as we know, within rugby.
Carl: A lot of tours are last-minute decisions. People get pissed in a pub on a Friday night after a game, or a Saturday night, or they, they ... One big idea, "Oh, let's go and do this." Nobody was in that situation this year, 'cause the costs are rising. Nobody knew where- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... it was gonna get bombed. And I was speaking to people, as you know, and I was just
Carl: They were like, "We don't know what's going on. Like, we, we can't book nothing." And it's, it is sometime ... And
Carl: they ... Well, at what point did you sit back and say, "Right, w- we've gotta do what we gotta do, but 2027's now gonna be the year"?
George: David, I would say about two months prior to the event, I think we, we kinda clarified-
David: Yeah. We, we, we, we had a call from- Uh, correct
George: me if I'm wrong.
David: Yeah ... yeah, so one of the teams that came, who won in the end, uh, who are the Gummy Bears in Italian, and hopefully I don't butcher the name, but Ulte- Ulceti, uh, Gomma Se.
David: They came, but they sent us a very nice message saying, "Look, if, if we can't come, can we [00:13:00] have refund because of the situation happening in the Middle East?" And both, when I was contacting George at this period, we realized, "Okay, we've got to make this smaller. We've got to finish it. We've got to make it the best we can do with as little as possible, but let's focus on for next year."
David: And that's as soon as we went to talk to Mike Maroy, who, as George said, fantastic guy, lovely chap. Absolutely a wealth of knowledge, but he, he could be a classicist, let's put it this way, with the amount of he can talk.
George: So on our event, Mike- David and I, the three of us decided last year that we need refs to ref and focus on that.
George: Because an event, you know, besides the timetable, besides the quality of the field, besides the setup, besides, besides, besides, you're actually playing a game. So you need to find pros that are gonna do that. So last year we had six or seven referees, pretty good, pretty good level, you know, pretty, very happy.
George: One guy I have to give a shout-out to is Obed. He's one of the guys we met. So I'll tell [00:14:00] you a story about the event in a bit, how we started, a quick story about Ebra and how it progressed in meeting these guys, et cetera, et cetera. So all I just wanted to say what David's saying is that we met Mike because he run the Seventh Referee team.
George: Yeah. And they come to your event, and you Uh, hire them to be part of your committee, and they did a fantastic job, all four of them that came in, plus, uh, we had Obed, so that was five. It was just fantastic. Anyway, David, sorry.
David: And, and this is, this is seven referees, so they do international reffing all over the world.
David: You know, he's b- he was working at, uh, Safari 7s, he's now working at East. He does various... There, there's the logo there. And a wealth of knowledge, been fantastic help for us in actually tournament planning, 'cause every year we learn something new, and we're open-minded enough to have that flexibility to listen to new ideas, and he's been a wealth of knowledge.
David: The referees that they brought this year were amazing, professional, but kept it friendly and [00:15:00] what more can you ask from a, a team of refereeing? 'Cause as, as George says, you can have all the teams in the world, but if your referee's rubbish, and he's not consistent, that, that makes the game not worthwhile.
David: I'm sure you had the same back in, unfortunately, the low levels in English rugby. If you have a bad referee, it's not a fun game to have. And, you know, the feedback we got from everyone was the referees were pretty good. They, they kept the game flowing. It was enjoyable. And what more can you ask for? You know, seeing everyone's smiling faces from this year's...
David: Even though it was a small tournament, everyone was really happy, everyone was enjoying it. And, you know, three of the, three of the international teams that came said they wanna come back next year. They wanna come back bigger, better, they wanna invite other teams. They said, "This is a fantastic opportunity.
David: We love it." You know, "Can we come and do more?" And, and I said, "Yeah, of course." That's, that's what we're here for, to see you guys smiling at the end of the day. It makes all the stress, all the all the anxiety of the tournament go out the window.
George: Let me just add here, [00:16:00] Carl, sorry to, to, to interrupt, but our business is sports tourism.
George: Yeah. So that means that our business is different sports, and how can we develop those sports. So we collaborate usually with other people that do sports. Rugby, under our business, is the first and only sport that we will be running as an event. So we'll usually go to a George and a David and a Mike to work with them so they can develop their own event on a particular sport, like CrossFit, weightlifting, running, uh, rowing, uh, golfing.
George: You know, we do all these sports, but this is the only direction that we have because out of the love of the sport, and we w- you know, we really wanna make this happen.
Carl: Obviously we're... That's why we're all here. We love the game, and it, it does suck you in to, to make sure that you try and spread the message with, with so many people.
Carl: But from the learnings of this, this year's tournament, the successes of the previous ones as well, so 2027, is there any little bits that we wanna drop now to make sure people start get a [00:17:00] time period or a destination in their diaries?
George: I like the way you think, Carl. We do not have a set date. We have a destination.
George: It's gonna be in Athens. It's gonna be an all-inclusive option. There's gonna be a two-part event, rugby sevens and beach rugby again, so we're gonna be unique on that, on that note, and there's gonna be a huge party with a local DJ on the evening, on the closing night. So we're gonna invest a lot on the, around of the thing.
George: Now, date-wise, I feel that beginning of June is gonna be a good proposition for us to, uh, pitch. And, uh, I was speaking with Mike for several, uh, collaborations that we might have, and already have some teams. Like, we have a team from Texas, we have a team from Ohio, and then we have, uh, the Irish, uh, academies or, or Irish rugby academy that are interested, and then we just got a contact from Wales.
George: So 2027 is already [00:18:00] starting to cook.
Carl: Yeah.
George: We're gonna have to meet with the federation in Greece and clarify the dates- Yeah ... you know, to make sure that we're in line with them, and we're both, uh, working together as to make this happen because they've been super supportive on every level. Um, so I cannot an- we cannot announce a date, but we could definitely announce early summer after Beginning of June-ish
Carl: Yeah
George: Uh, and a- and Athens, so yeah
Carl: Awesome.
Carl: Yeah, no, that, that was, as I said, time period is gonna be ear- early summer, and what, what a place and what an event to get to as well. Is it ... I, I've already got multiple, multiple teams ready for once we get that sort of s- save the date ready. It's, it's gonna be, it's gonna be massive. So we're looking to add in sort of more international teams.
Carl: Uh, uh, you said about the youth setup coming through as well. What's the, what's the plan with that as well? 'Cause that must be a real hard balance- But- ... to find a way ... So I was, when I spoke to the Heart of Wales [00:19:00] 7s lads, like, they get the kids there for free during the day for, not for a lot of players, but, like, for a family event feel.
Carl: But then af- after 9:00, get your kids out the way, 'cause it's, uh, it's a 7s festival, and they ... That's when the, that's when the fun for the adults begins, shall we say?
George: Carl, I'll be honest with you, it's, it's, that, that's the dilemma.
Carl: Yeah.
George: Is that where do you situate the youth, and where do you situate the party?
Carl: Yeah.
George: So do you have a party for the y- so that's, that's the logistics part and the operational that we're gonna have to find. It all depends on the location that this is gonna happen. You know, can you have an independent area where you do each ... But the whole idea with youth is just to get four or five teams to start off.
George: The thing we like about youth is that there's a bigger umbrella of people that are involved. For example, you have kids. I just, I have a two-year-old, so he can't really play rugby yet. Maybe in a couple of months. But your kids, for example, you would come as a family, and besides the fact that you are four [00:20:00] people instead of two coming to the event.
George: You know what I'm saying? So it's not just your kids, which, if they were 18, it's just the two of them. Suddenly it's four people, which is great, but then you get a different approach to the whole event. Yeah. You know, you get a different feeling of, oh wow, there's more families involved. There's more people.
George: That's what we wanna invest more in, into that. Of course, we wanna also introduce the whole, uh, big party, uh, make it happen for the older boys and girls, and make sure that they have a good time. So, uh, yeah, we're trying to make sure that it's fair but also safe for both sides. You know, we don't want any hiccups on that end.
Carl: They do their, they do the invitational game on the Friday night with, um, Shane Williams and stuff, like they do a charity game, 15 a, 15, 15 a side. Shane Williams then, like, I'm, I've been invited to play in that again this year, get to play against Shane Williams, Andy Powell, James Hook, all of these, like, international lion superstars and stuff, and- Yeah, there's that bit, and then the kids are there from
Carl: They do the ... They, they come [00:21:00] and watch that. Then the after party, the kids are out of the way, but they get to get the autograph of all the players, and there's, like, you, you're walking round. And then the, the ... It's, they're the memories that kids will remember of the game that we all love, and that's, that's the perfect feed a bit.
Carl: But if you can also get that niche point of getting game time for them as well, and then people watching- Yeah ... and just sort of putting them on that platform, it's ... And then what, what an event as well, and what a place to do it, in Athens as well, with, with such a growing love of the game. It's, it- it's been bubbling underneath, and it's getting bigger and bigger.
Carl: I- I'm just buzzing to be involved with it as well, and hopefully we can agree that I'm gonna be still part of this, this process and this journey for 2027 and, uh, and onwards, 'cause I ca- I can't wait to be part of it. I was gutted I couldn't get there this year.
George: Maybe it was better that you weren't there this year, because you might not have gotten the taste.
George: So, so the universe kind of, uh, works its way to make it happen so that everybody at the end of the day is happy, right? Yes, it was disappointing for us. Yeah, David and I were [00:22:00] like, "What are we doing?" You know, like, "We gotta figure it out." But at the end of the day, Carl didn't make it, Mike didn't make it, this guy didn't make it, the other guy didn't make it.
George: Nicola Matawalu from Wales didn't make it. All for the same reason. Everybody had something. And at the end of the day, maybe that's to make '27 even bigger, you know? Again, you're part of it. The only reason you would be part of it is because of your character and what you've shown, without knowing each other.
George: Like, me and you, we've talked, what? Five times? Yeah. Four times. Once on the phone, and now it's the second time. I didn't even know really what you looked like. Yeah, you look like a Viking, but yeah, you look like this big rugby player, and this forward, you know. And, and, and yet your, your wedding anniversary might've been on the same day, so that's coincidence, which, which is unreal.
George: You know? Like, all this ... And in Chania. So, so the universe definitely played a huge role on the, the how positive we wanna be. And, and, and the more you do things that you love, the more people like Carl, and I'll be [00:23:00] honest, like David for sure, and like everybody else, and my business partner Mike. And, and, and everything of
George: It all ties in, you know? Kinda like team passion. So yeah, Carl, if you would have us-
Carl: 100% ...
George: we'd like to have you.
Carl: 100%, and there, there's, there's a massive opportunity for this event to get bigger and bigger, especially with Greek rugby growing how it is. And obviously we've got, uh, with- within the channel, we do a lot for grassroots rugby, a lot within Rugby Europe, a lot within other nations in the tier three, ti- tier two.
Carl: From, from a Greek point of view as well, from ... When I spoke to Eleni, there's- Well, rugby's probably about the fifth sport like most other nations in, in Europe, sort of maybe even, even lower potentially as well, because that one moment that, that puts it into the spotlight, that I think we're all waiting for that one moment, and all of these little moments sort of slowly bring it back together.
Carl: [00:24:00] Rugby Europe obviously re-entering into, into the sevens, and now obviously the, the, the success that they had the other weekend of being able to get to the first event, going to that. Does that add a little bit more ... Not to say that the event isn't legitimate, but does it add a little bit more of legit- legitimacy that some of these nations are putting teams together that are then growing and attracting other teams to come and say, "Right, actually this is a, this is, this is how it's set up.
Carl: This is how we're moving forward. This is one nation that is gonna be..." 'Cause the, the likes of Gibraltar have obviously managed to get events against Sweden. Greece have obviously managed to get, um, Albania. Obviously, we've got other events going on, planned, scheduled, going up. They're getting into the sevens tournaments.
Carl: That's, that validity then allows you guys to use that to your strength to grow this event even further. Once that 15s model, the sevens is obviously the, is, is, is an easy target to grow. [00:25:00] But do you think there's a potential appetite at some point for a 15s tournament to be developed? Or do you add something like a 10s?
Carl: Or do you... I'm, I'm talking longer term here, but there's, there's gotta be another way of us f- bridging the gap, rather than people just making events of it's a festival for sevens because it's a shorter format, 'cause it's got more chance of people getting pissed up in between. But there, there's got to be a wider model for a 15s, because that is technically the flagship product of, of rugby, correct?
David: Yeah. So, uh, not to jump on George there, we also run rugby tours. So we had-
Carl: Mm ...
David: actually, the year before, when I joined up, we had two tours. We had a tour from, uh, a London-based club that came, and then we have veterans tournaments coming as well that we help organize with our local club. This year we had, Deloitte's came for a mixture of sevens, tens, and then just running around.
David: So we do facilitate these [00:26:00] rugby tours and, you know, that's the idea is, tournament-wise it'd be fantastic if we could hold our own little Rugby World Cup here in Greece would be amazing. You know, four weeks having clubs over. That would be, that would be fantastic. Very, very, very long-term away. I-
Carl: if anyone ever's watched the, the, the podcast from the, from the first ever episode, that is one of the first things I ever said, is I would love to create a grassroots Rugby World Cup.
Carl: And I'm still- And you're working. Yeah ... I, I'm still hanging my hat on finding a way of making that happen in some format for the 15s model 'Cause like, we've got... We don't need the massive stadiums, you just need teams. We could put it as a tour, you can put it as a week. We don't have to be four weeks.
Carl: People don't have to move out and leave. But if we could find a way of finding that format for grassroots clubs to go and do-
George: Earl, how m- how m- how many teams, [00:27:00] how many, how many games and how long would the 15s t- games play? Let, let... I mean, I, I'm, I'm, I hear what you, what you're saying, and I agree, but how long would this tour be for?
Carl: I reckon it could be- Three
George: weeks?
Carl: I reckon it could be... No, I reckon it'd be c- condensed into a week. Like, if you... I think if you ta- if you scheduled it correctly, if you had two or four, two or four pitches available, it, you'd, it'd have to be a proper complex, but- I think, I think there's traction in it
George: Like, play on a Saturday, play on a Wednesday, and play Saturday on the final?
Carl: Yeah, yeah
George: Something like
Carl: that ... exactly. You could stagger it out. It doesn't ... We don't have to have 48 teams to start with like the, like the World Cup, but we could ... I think there's gotta be a way. There's g- I think, imagine that, that one flagship bit. The 7s is brilliant. I love 7s for what 7s is, but my love is, it's the 15s.
Carl: And if you can find a for- if we can find a format to replicate that and get that on the map, I think that's, that's the bridge. I think that's the bridge. If we can stream, stream it, [00:28:00] platform it, get the right ... I just, that, I'm still hanging my hat on it. I'm, I'm not fucking giving up on it. There's, there, there's got, there's gotta be traction in it somehow.
Carl: I
David: mean, it is possible, and I've ... Thinking through the math and the numbers, I think if you had an 18, 18 tournament, you could do it all in a week with the top two going to the semifinal, or the top teams of that group going straight into a final. You could start, let's say, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and then the last game Sunday.
David: So you could theoretically do it.
George: Four game, four fifteens games in a week?
David: Yeah.
George: Three is, I think, like, pushing it.
David: Possibly.
George: So a 10 day, let's say 10 days, 10 days.
David: Yeah.
George: 10 days to make it fair, you know, injuries and all that. Yeah. That's not a bad idea. I mean, you could always tie that around an event also, right?
Carl: Exactly.
George: That could be the pinnacle of the event, and the party's on Saturday when the 7s finishes and the beach rugby finishes. And then week prior to this, or 10 days prior to this, you could have that. Carl, we're, uh, [00:29:00] we're all about these, uh, awesome ideas that you have. As a forward, I'm very well impress- well, you're exceptional.
Carl: Well, I can read and write is probably the, is, is the amazing bit.
George: Like, full sentences and everything?
Carl: Yes. Yeah, rather than shouting and pointing and stuff, yeah. Oh, look.
George: Wow.
Carl: I'll sometimes use a full stop as well, but ...
George: I'll tell you a story. Uh, you said something about Andy Powell earlier.
Carl: Yeah.
George: So I used to play for the national team, right?
George: And we, our, our, our peak was coming in fourth in Europe, but back then, it was just one group. Like, everybody was playing everybody. So little old Greece was playing against, uh, Russia, Ukraine, Spain, Italy, uh, all these nations, right? And they were just like, you know, first year fumbled, second year rolled up.
George: At some point, we got good, right? We got, we got really good, and competitive, so we came in fourth, right? So we're in, prior to that year, we're in Georgia, and uh, Wales are there. And we're kinda like, "All right, cool." You know, everybody, we're like normal [00:30:00] sized, right? We, we might have been a lot more muscular than we are now, but nothing compared to these guys on other teams.
George: And suddenly Wales shows up, and we're like, "You know, who is that guy?" This monster of a man walks by me, and I'm like Dude, who is this guy? Like, why is he even on the field? His, his, his shoulders were, like, coming out of his, like, neck. I, I never seen anybody... And I'm like, "Yeah, it's just a typical," you know, 'cause, 'cause when we played against Ukraine, for example, they were like Uh, 185 all of them, about 100 kilos each one of them.
George: But they weren't technical, you know, they were just powerhouses, you know? So we, we, we had that. And then this guy comes in and, and at the time I grabbed this guy from, uh, George actually, and I go, uh, I forget his name, and I go, "Dude, who's that guy?" And he goes, "That's Andy Powell. He's on suspension from the Wales team for driving the golf cart on this event that they went, and he got really drunk, and they, and they punished him, and now he's gonna have to play sevens."
George: I was like, "Oh my God, please, let's not play against him." [00:31:00] That's just my only ... I don't wanna play, you know, this guy's... So watching him play sevens was the funniest thing, 'cause he's, like, gigantic. As a person, you've seen him probably.
David: Yeah.
George: And you could, uh, l- uh, confirm on what I'm saying. And he's grabbing the ball with one hand, and it looks like a real, a tennis ball, right?
George: And he's just going like this, and just kinda like launching it left and right while people are trying to tackle him and, and this is, like, top level, right? So this is completely ... I was like, "Oh my God. Thank God. Thank Greece you do your cross. Thank God we didn't play against him."
Carl: Yeah. He's, um, yeah, he's still, he's still got it as well when he was running round and
Carl: They, they're the, they're the ones as well that you make a, you make names, and you make, you get those guests to, to events, and people. Like, where George, Jordan from the Hartwell Sevens, he said I th- I think it was about maybe year seven or something like that of their events that they managed to get the first celebrities or lo- local sp- like, legends effectively.
Carl: And he said the amount of messages [00:32:00] he gets from parents or from kids that have said, "Oh, I managed to get my, my shirt signed by Shane Williams," or, "I managed to get this done," and stuff like that. He said that also added legitimacy to the youth level coming through as well, 'cause that, that's the hard balance of just it being b- just their, their being there because of the parents or them there being b- able to meet sort of legends and stuff like that.
Carl: And Greece has obviously got its own group of legends. Obviously I managed to call out Adonis when I managed to find his, uh, his, his photograph in the first ever, the first ever post I did about Greek rugby. And, uh, Eleni said there are messages that I, I, I, she got after, after I called him Adonis. I can't remember his name, and I'll probably badly butcher his name as it is, 'cause I know he-
George: Who's this?
George: He,
Carl: he, he was a prop. Uh, black long hair. He ... Uh, Dave probably saw the first ever picture. It was, it was from, like, 2012. There was a, like, a random photograph I [00:33:00] found of Rugby U- Union Greece before, obviously before it went into the sort of the dark ages for a little bit, then it sort of got put in a back burner.
Carl: But there was this geezer with black, long black hair, a big black beard. Proper, proper, proper prop. Um, but yeah. Greek rugby has got i- its own legends within its game and stuff like that. And, uh, do they still have much of an impact being able to get to, to these events and stuff? Is that, is that something that would help- Support Greek rugby within
Carl: 'Cause we've spoke about this, Dave, as well, is having Greek rugby put on the map with a Greek content creator, somebody that sort of ... Obviously, I, I, I love flying the flag for it and help trying to grow it. But does somebody on the ground being able to speak Greek, is that, do you think that that's a way of turning what is a light interest into something that's a- able to be more accessible to, to, to the public?
George: So I've been playing rugby in Greece since 2004. [00:34:00] Back then, there was no federation. 2005 was what? The beginning of the federation. 2005, we went to Austria. We lost to Austria. We were the first ever national team. Um, since then, it was just building and building and building. 2012, I think, whatever it was, uh, there was a big, let's call it a misunderstanding, to be honest.
George: Uh, in general in Greece, what has happened is there's a lot of love for the sport There's a lack of proper leadership at every level. There's a lack of leadership going forward, what's the direction? What's the u- And that doesn't bring the unity that's required for long-term progress, right? So yeah, we might be progressing together, but there's just little bits and pieces of a, of a broken puzzle and a 10-year break from a relationship that you're trying to get back together with again.
George: So, you know, Carl 10 years ago wasn't the Carl that he is today, right? So if I knew Carl 10 years ago, knowing him today, he might be a complete [00:35:00] different person. Yes, the core might be there, but he's improved. He's become better. He's, you know ... And, and in Greece, a lot of people just dropped rugby for 10 years, or a lot of people were fully on rugby 2011, '12, and then suddenly just dropped, right?
George: So you got this, like, 10-year gap of some people that were still trying to make it happen, but under something official and under something at the amateur level, what's your first goal? To have a championship, and your second goal is to have a national team, right? So in 10 years' time, you're losing players from that, and you're losing the connection of rugby.
George: In addition, there's a very small number, let's say there's 350, 400 people in total involved with the rugby in Greece. You know, in a country of 5 million, uh, 10 million or a little less, it's, it's a very small number, right? And, and these 500 people are, like, maybe 400, b- maybe 300, let's say. Amongst them, they dispersed for a long period of time, so getting back into this [00:36:00] might take some time, you know?
George: Yes, it's helpful that the national team is around. Yes, it's helpful that the, the, the championship is happening. Yes, it's helpful that we have this event. Yes, it's helpful that we go to different events around Europe, different local clubs, so we're spreading the word, you know? I feel that there needs to be more of a unified action towards how big everybody's, uh, efforts are to make this happen.
George: We need to support each other more at the level where the brotherhood is, is, is united completely. Every team, every event, everything in general is just- Something that I feel is getting there, and I feel will get there, but it's just gonna take some time to clarify. You know, every club has it, has its problems, so that means that every other club with each other is gonna have their problem, which means that the federation might have their problems.
George: So it trickles down, but it's kinda like, the way I see it, because I'm, I'm not so [00:37:00] involved with the playing side of it, I see it as a puzzle slowly coming in together like, you know, g- like, like you mentioned, and this puzzle is coming in different areas- Yeah ... and from different directions, but the main goal is there, right?
George: So I think, yeah, definitely we're gonna get there. There's no doubt about it. Yeah, there's a, there's a lot of traction. There's a lot of discussion about rugby. Of course, like you mentioned before, does it help our event that the national team is present? Yeah, of course. Does that reflect the level of rugby in Greece?
George: I don't know. It's the beginning. Because like I said before, 2005 we went to Austria, we lost for like, I don't know, 30, 40 points, I don't even remember. Which today, not today, but after a couple of years if we played Austria again, we would've beat them by 40, 50 points. So is that a reflection of being present, or is that a reflection of the quality of rugby in Greece?
George: It's a reflection of being present for now. Yeah. And we're building on that, you know? That's what Eleni, Yannis, uh, the, the president, and all these people are doing to help, [00:38:00] is just start being present and slowly progress into the competitive side of it. Yeah. You know, you're, you can't win your first game.
George: I mean, if you did, wow, that's fantastic. Yeah. It's lucky too. I was in Azerbaijan for the national team, and that's when we played fifteens to come up to, I think, conference... I don't even think there was conferences there. My mind's a little blurry. I might've been a forward in the past, so my mind's a little, you know, screwed up.
George: So we're in Azerbaijan, and this guy comes old guy, and he's like, "I used to play for the English national team." I forget his name. I even have his autograph somewhere. And I said, "Wow, you know, that's amazing." And he heard, he came to our conversation because he heard that we're complaining that we were in Azerbaijan playing rugby and the living conditions that we had at the time and blah, blah, blah.
George: And he goes, "What year is it?" And I go, "I don't know, 2010, 2009?" I, I don't even remember. Eight, seven, six. And he goes, "Do you know 15 years ago, 15 years ago, we drove with a bus for the Six [00:39:00] Nations from London to Italy to play one fucking game and then drive back on a bus?" You know, a- and this is the national team of England, and this was 15 years ago from the date that we were in Azerbaijan.
George: And, and, and it comes to showing you that, guys, it's a type of sport that's so basic and so simple. Just do your job. Just stop complaining. Just show up. Just play your rugby. Just let the players be players, let the coaches be coaches, let the event manager be event manager. Let Carl do his job. Let everybody just do their job and just focus on this one goal.
George: Get rugby moving, you know? And, uh, on a side note, 'cause you said something about celebrities and whatnot, we're really lucky. So I gotta give a shout-out to Rania Koutsikou. She's the coach of the Cretan Gunners, and she has been in rugby, and she was in Wales studying, et cetera, et cetera. And now she's the coach and with my friend, Dimitri Katastratis, who have the Gunners, et cetera.
George: She gave us the contact of [00:40:00] Nicola Matawalu, who was studying in her university. Nicola has the same ... He's a Fijian. You know who he is. He's- He's been on the pod ... Olympic, uh- Been on
Carl: the pod.
George: He was on the podcast. Yeah. Yeah, correct. So we got you in contact with him, and, and, and, and, and, and just- Top
Carl: bloke
George: meeting you, it was amazing. So you're like, if you're talking about celebrity that's down to earth, it's this guy. He's just like, "Uh, George, what do you need? This, this, and that." He got us the butchers coming in the first year- Yeah ... right? And the butchers are a pro team.
Carl: Yeah.
George: He got it done. He's like, "Guys-" I'll get you the butcher.
George: They came. It might cost a little more for them to be here, and we all had to find a way to make it happen, but they were here, right? So a celebrity, yes, is a celebrity, but in rugby, a celebrity's different because he brings in a value of, to what your cause is. Exactly that. He's not looking at, "I'm Nikolai and I'm gonna showcase my stuff."
George: He even played beach rugby against some of the teams. You know, a- [00:41:00] think about it, you're like a pro, l- still a pro player playing beach rugby. Yeah In our event, in Greece, with, uh, nothing to win. Literally. No gains, nothing. Just for the love of the game, you know? So yeah, we're really lucky with that, and we also had last year, what was the name, David?
George: Um,
David: we had, so we brought in Canon Balotod, who was the GB 7s captain. He's now come back from injury and did a fantastic job in Bordeaux. Uh, we also had Anna Amory, who is a Belgium 7s and 15s player, and now currently playing with the finalists of this year's Pro Do- uh, PWR, Trailfinders, and both of them brought in people last year.
David: If it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have had Robert Gordon University, we wouldn't have female internationals, uh, coming over, and actually, we wouldn't have had two female Argonauts teams just from individuals signing up, and most of them came because they knew Anna and what she'd done. And having those kind of partnerships, celebrities do answer those doors.
David: They [00:42:00] bring in people just because of that name, and we had a fantastic partnership with ... It's a shame they couldn't come this year due to, as George said, all the other problems that happened this year. But we're working forward to do stuff with them, to then bring them back out, looking into doing training camps with them, um, you know, week-long experiences where people can learn how to play 7s or, or 15s game from these two current professionals playing it again.
David: And this opens a lot of these wider doors to then develop, not only in Greece, but the Balkan region as a whole, 'cause it would be open up to all the Balkan players, you know. Everyone around Greece plays rugby now, you know. They had their first Women's Internationals against Bulgaria. Played them twice, won one, lost one.
David: They played Albania and they played Kosovo, and it's that, as George says, it's being present, but now, we're being present, let's slowly develop there. What can we do is we can try and bring in these people to try and help out, ease the burden on the federation so they can handle the [00:43:00] day-to-day stuff while we can handle other bits, and working together for that common goal as the greater good of Greek rugby, let's say.
Carl: But that's the problem. Everyone says, everyone's got an opinion. It's those people that action those opinions and try and help support the p- uh, the cause. Everyone, everyone- Rugby's got that major issue with everyone's a sappuccino. Everyone loves to have a whinge and a moan, but until it actually comes to putting your money where your mouth is, or putting your actual effort where your mouth is, that's the difference between rugby celebrities and stuff like that.
Carl: Because a lot of people can talk a good game, but they all, all want money up front, rather than just, "Let's make sure it happens. Let's make the greater good of the game, and the rest of it will come together." 'Cause we've all got a common goal, and that was obviously when we had our conversation, George, it was the case of, "Let's make it happen.
Carl: The rest of it will all come together," 'cause we just, we're doing it to make sure this game grows. And r- rugby's at a [00:44:00] point, it's either sink or swim, and we're ... Uh, it's not, it's not just in Greece, it's not, it's just at the whole commercial element of rugby. And I think the way that we wanna package it up, the way we wanna try and make sure that it's accessible to everyone, because everyone talks about how the game is for everyone.
Carl: The game isn't for everyone. The game's open to anyone, because we will let anyone come and play it, and look after you, and you become part of the family. But some people just aren't built to play rugby, because they don't like getting the hits. But we've adapted the game. You've got touch, you've got beach rugby.
Carl: You've got all these other variations that we as a g- as a sport, for the good or the bad, however you wanna view it, we've made the game accessible to every person in some format, whether it's contact, whether it's walking rugby, where- whereas- A lot of other sports, if you're not physically able, go find another sport.
Carl: But we, we move heaven and hell to make sure that people can come and play the [00:45:00] sport in whatever format, and we've now just gotta bundle that into the package that is consumable for people outside of the game that we love. And these events, even if you don't, even if you don't wanna come and play, just come and watch the event, because the g- the rugby will be event, uh, will, will be amazing.
Carl: The atmosphere, ev- you will make friends that you don't even... Y- Like, you normally go on holiday, you make a friend f- on holiday, and then you never text them again. With rugby, you've got no choice, 'cause they'll usually text you. Like, you can't get rid of them. They're literally... Rugby, rugby family is like the unflushable turd.
Carl: Like, you can't get rid of them. Even if you want to get rid of them, they're still there, but when you, when you need them, you drop a message, anything, they're there. And that's, that's why this game and this sport and this family worldwide is so amazing.
George: Yeah, definitely. I agree with you 100%. On a, on a side note, the whole, uh, you flush them, it doesn't get, go away.
George: I mean, I've, through [00:46:00] rugby, I've made the best friendships, and I know this sounds romantic, but, you know, people ask me, "What's your background?" I, I, I did boxing, I did, uh, I played some volleyball, I played some basketball, blah, blah, blah. Did you keep friendships from that, uh, group? Yeah, if I see them, you know, 'cause I, I, I was competitive at boxing, so yeah, if I see them, yeah, sure, why not, but that was only for a short time.
George: But would you drop whatever you're doing to go see them and help them, et cetera, et cetera, like you said perfectly? Probably not. Rugby, though, the first guy I met was in a bar for an altercation, let's call it, and I just joined. I was in the middle of it, and I kinda joined, and that's how we kind of met this guy, and this guy t- today is still the guy that I will call and say, "Hey, how are you?"
George: As, as if a day hasn't passed, and this is going back, you know, 19, uh, two, two, th- 26 years ago. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's, it's, it's g- it's, it's something that's just- I can't explain it another way to people that haven't [00:47:00] played or haven't been part of it. And then I'm gonna throw in something for the event.
George: We're aiming for touch rugby to also be part of our event. So besides youth and seniors, et cetera, touch rugby will also be in some aspect part of this, this event, and we're gonna try and focus on that also. That was just a side note of what, what you're saying.
Yeah.
Carl: I, I, I think it's a, it's a great way of getting that, that buy-in from other, other, other angles.
Carl: I, I'm not built for touch. Like, it's not physically, it's not in my forte, but there are some, b- but for some people-
George: You don't, you don't like to touch or they don't like to touch you or?
Carl: Uh, both, to be fair. No, I j- it's, it's- ... it's, it's the stopping. It's, that's the issue. Like, everyone's like, "Why have you not stopped inc-?"
Carl: I just can't. My physic- my physical ability is not to stop. I just can't stop. Like, if I've started running- Y- ... that's it. Like-
George: Diesel power. That's- Diesel power ...
Carl: that's
George: it. On- once the diesel power gets going-
Carl: That's it, I can't stop.
George: Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Keep it going, yes.
Carl: But like, there, there's so many pl- like Ben, [00:48:00] Ben John, obviously the rugby trainer, retired pro because of concussion.
Carl: Loves the game, coaching kids, coaching everyone to, to learn from the game, but he's able to get out there and still play touch because it doesn't then impact the risk of... But he's still playing the game that he loves. And for these, more, more of these events, look, touch rugby is a great way for people that still go to the event and like, "Right, I'm not feeling sevens, but I can still be part of it.
Carl: I'm not getting excluded." Yeah. We can still put a touch team together. Let's go and have fun. Those boys wanna go play sevens. If you wake up in the morning, you fancy sevens, you can go do sevens. If not, we've got a touch team. Perfect. It covers every angle and-
George: That's the idea, yeah.
Carl: Correct ... it's amazing.
Carl: Gents, this is obviously only gonna get bigger and bigger. We're gonna release more information as, as we go. Yeah. And let's make sure this event is the one that people have gotta remember because, uh,
George: I- So we're looking at early summer 2027. You gotta book your tickets. You're invited, uh, on us [00:49:00] your end.
George: We'd love to have you and your family. Uh, we're definitely gonna try and do our best to make it happen, and- Yeah ... up until then, we're gonna definitely be working together. You're part of the team now. Yeah. Like it or not.
Carl: I, I'm in.
George: You're ... We are that turd, we are that turd that you- Perfect ... uh, you can't flush now anyways.
George: Yeah. Uh, w- we'd love to also introduce you to Ella.
Carl: Yeah.
George: She's gonna be really close working with us, so that'd be great for you guys to get in contact. David can share the information.
David: 100%. And it's the same with A- Adam. So we had Adam from, who was Wolfpack, who's now part of Rugby Connect. I know. Oh, right.
David: I know Adam as well. He's been, he's been- Already dealt with ... fantastic with us. Top bloke Been really good pushing teams with us. Oh, yeah. And actually, he was also helpful in touch ideas and how to work it, and he, again, as George says, as you put, it's that... Okay, I'm gonna use a little bit more colorful language.
David: It's, it's the friend that you always know will always be there, and from the people that I've met playing rugby all over Europe, I'm still in connect with them. I'll, I'll message them, say, "Look, what, [00:50:00] you up for the something? I'm, I'm here for the weekend in Bratislava or in, uh, Den Haag. Do you wanna meet up?"
David: And they're like, "Yeah, totally." And it, and that's the beautiful thing about rugby. It is a sport of thugs played by gentlemen who just wanna do it for the love of the game, and that's the important thing, to play, enjoy, drink, eat together, and possibly wake up in a ditch together after w- a good night out.
Carl: Standard. It's the usual, it's the usual Saturday night anyway for the good old times.
George: Sounds, sounds safe,
Carl: yeah. That's it. I think on that note, we're obviously gonna call this episode. This has been an absolute blinder. Make sure you keep your eyes out for everything that's coming up. We're gonna make sure we share everything.
Carl: There's gonna be more, more announcements to come, but get that date in your diary, early summer 2027 in Athens. It's gonna be a banger. These gents are gonna be there. We'll keep you updated with everything. For everything else we do on Rugby TTL, make sure you follow us on YouTube, all the others, subscribe, like, all of those bits.
Carl: Make sure you get over to the Aegean Festival. [00:51:00] Make sure you follow and, um, subscribe to, to all their channels that you can keep abreast of everything that we're all gonna be sharing together. But thank you for everyone for joining us. Make sure you get your tickets, and we'll see you soon.