Super Rugby Americas Explained: The Unseen Gem ft. Joe Santamaria | Rugby TTL

A deep dive into Super Rugby Americas with Joe Santamaria — the competition feeding Argentina, Chile, Uruguay and Brazil.

In this episode: what Super Rugby Americas is; the South American pipeline; Pumas/Cóndores/Teros; where to watch.

Subscribe on YouTube (youtube.com/@RugbyTTL) · Spotify · Apple Podcasts · rugbyttl.com. ⏱ Add chapters from 00:00.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:24 Overview of Super Rugby Americas
01:36 New Season Excitement and Team Preparations
01:58 League Expansion and Team Dynamics
02:21 Last Season Highlights and Player Movements
03:08 Challenges and Growth of the League
07:51 Team Strategies and Rivalries
21:22 Commercial and Logistical Aspects
33:45 Fan Engagement and Community Support
39:35 Predictions for the Upcoming Season
40:30 Chile's Rugby Journey and Key Players
42:27 Chile's Playing Style and Key Figures
44:32 Challenges and Injuries in Chilean Rugby
45:29 Penarol's Player Exodus and Impact
46:10 Uruguayan Players and National Team Perspective
49:45 Penarol's New Additions and Key Players
53:50 Pampas' Performance and Key Losses
59:17 Rugby in Uruguay and Argentina
01:02:16 Capybaras: The New Franchise
01:08:17 Season Predictions and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Rugby Through the Leagues podcast. This week we are going to South America, not physically unfortunately, but. Through the powers of Zoom and the internet, we are joined by Joe Santa Maria, who is based in Buenos Aires at the minute. We've managed to get the time zones working.

Carl: Joe and I really appreciate your time. It's taken us a little while to tie this together. We are gonna be talking about super Rugby America's, potentially the best league that people don't know about in the world currently. Is that a fair comment? 

Joe: Well, it's, I mean, I've got a vested interest, but yeah, I'd certainly say so.

Joe: It's the best league you've never heard of. Well, thanks for having me on, Carl. Yeah, we're about to chat Super America. It's gonna be fantastic. There's not many English speaking people having this conversation, which is a shame. Hopefully there'll be more because it's an unbelievable league. So for anyone who doesn't know Clue in the name Clue in me being in Buenos Aires, this is a franchise tournament based outta South America.

Joe: It's now going into its sixth year, launched in 2020. Terrible time to launch an international sports [00:01:00] league. Only got a couple of games in before it was canceled, but it's survived and it's actually thriving. It's in a really, really good spot at the moment. Uh, we'll get into the details of, of, you know, the trials and tribulations, the players, the coaches, uh.

Joe: Uh, listeners might be surprised by how many names come up that they might already know 'cause they might already be playing for their clubs in Europe, but it feels as though the league is just on the cusp of really kind of breaking into the, the rugby consciousness in Europe and beyond because the players are already going over.

Joe: The quality is improving every year and it's a fantastic spectacle. So I'm really looking forward to chatting it over for the next, however long this lasts, 

Carl: and we are literally on the cusp of a new season as well. So this is why we've timed this Ready? Ready for this? We are what, literally just coming towards the end of January.

Carl: So we're a few weeks ahead of the new season. A few games are coming up. Fred Lee's teams are sort of testing them. They're all in camp now. What is your quick reaction to how this new season's gonna explode onto the scene? 

Joe: Yeah, I think. First thing to mention is there's a new [00:02:00] franchise for the first time, so Argentina have now got a fourth team, the CAPI boroughs.

Joe: And yes, that is for anyone who's surprised to see that that is the adorable animal, although it'll be less adorable. Yeah. When it's, you know, being worn on the jersey of 15 blood thirsty Argentines. Yeah, so the league's expanded to eight teams now. So obviously year on year growth, uh, and the quality on the pitch is also improving.

Joe: So, I mean, I can't wait for it, honestly. Last season was one of the, the most pleasurable experiences I've had covering the league professionally, but also just as a fan following a League of Rugby in a very, very long time. Uh, anyone who hasn't gone back and checked out last season, you can go and see the highlights from all the rounds, including the, the latter rounds in particular.

Joe: Uh, the final was won by the Uruguayan franchise Penole. They won 35, 34, uh, and Doggos their opponents, their Argentine opponents almost came back from kind of 20, 25 points down, 

Carl: left it dead 

Joe: late. If that game was two minutes longer, the Doggos would've been champions. I mean, I was at that game live. It was unbelievable.

Joe: Wow. Not only. As a spectacle, but also just the quality of the rugby and we'll, we'll [00:03:00] talk, but a load of those guys on the do off side, the losing side got straight on a plane and a load of them. Were playing against the lions for Argentina just a couple of weeks later. Yeah, so the quality of the league is, is improving every year.

Joe: The kind of growth of the infrastructure of the league really feels this season as though. It's, it's growing. I'm based in Buenos Aires, as you mentioned. So the local team here is Pampa. I've definitely seen more Pampa jerseys out and about than I did this time a year ago. Um, you know, the, uh, the clubs are releasing their memberships and it looks like shirt sales are up.

Joe: Attendance are likely to be up, uh, as they were last year compared to 2024. So kind of on all levels, the league feels as though it's ready to take a next step forwards. And maybe we'll get into the, you know, the storylines to come, but I cannot wait. As you mentioned, it kicks off, I think February the 20th is the first round.

Joe: Yeah. And Friday 

Carl: night. 

Joe: Yeah, 

Carl: Friday the 20th isn't, it's 

Joe: gonna be an unbelievable year. 

Carl: Yeah. I can't wait. Uh, obviously as you mentioned, a few of the players jumped on that plane from that final or from their other, other games as well. Obviously, Paraguay [00:04:00] had their, they got their own side in there. They had to go off to, to play in the, was it the American Nations Cup?

Carl: Mm-hmm. And the qualifiers and all the, the well cup qualifiers that they had subsequently. So a lot of these players. Fully blooded international sites. Some of the Argentinians haven't come back though 'cause they've stayed in England or stayed on their continent. Uh, many have gone across to the super rugby over down in the, 

Joe: the other super 

Carl: they, the other super Yeah, the rubbish one.

Carl: Yeah. There, 

Joe: yeah. There's, there's three of the lads over at the war tiles now. Um. So it, it's all, remember Lion Ero, the hooker from Dagos? Yeah. Ti Majano the Scrum half and of course, yeah, 

Carl: they've gone to West Western, 

Joe: Western Force. Western Force, not the, yeah. And uh, of course, uh, Frank Molina, Molina, you know, who's gonna be back in the uk.

Joe: He's 

Carl: just, 

Joe: uh, come into the, in Newcastle, 

Carl: forgot he signed a two year deal to go to Western Force and then, uh, obviously the, the Red Bull money come running. So he is, uh, yeah, his plane [00:05:00] ticket got reversed and obviously you obviously don't blame him. He 

Joe: missed, he missed the UK a few weeks down in the ex or season down in next two and he couldn't wait to go back.

Joe: I wonder if he'll find the weather any different up in Newcastle, but that's for him to work out. 

Carl: I'm sure the money will make it a little bit easier for him. So we've obviously touched on the additional franchise with the Capy Baras joining. So we've got the Capy Bar as the Doggos. We've got Pampa and 

Joe: Aus.

Carl: Is it Aus? That's it. So that's the four Argentinian teams. We've then got Cobras in. Yata in Paraguay. 

Joe: Yeah, we got, yeah, Yarra in Paraguay. Yeah. 

Carl: And in Sn in Chile. 

Joe: Snam in Chile. 

Carl: Fuck me. The last one to, 

Joe: oh, should I quiz you or shall I shall Pen 

Carl: Roll 

Joe: pen top 

Carl: mate. No, no, no. Penole. So yeah, Penole is the, obviously the three times champions from Uruguay.

Carl: There's been a bit of movement around, obviously with the new franchise coming in. Just a quick one on that. Do you think that's actually gonna strengthen the league or weaken it? [00:06:00] Because Somet obviously there's been a bit of, a bit of a movement from Doggos across to, across to the Capy bars. 'cause a lot of 'em were regional based LA players originally from the little old region have gone back to obviously that that region now to play for the Capybaras do seem to have taken a bit of a batter in.

Carl: But I don't think from looking at the socials and looking at the the squad, I don't think they're gonna be as weakened as most people would be worried. 

Joe: I think that's definitely. Yeah, I think, I think you're, you're onto something really. I mean there has always been an intention with the, the regional franchises in Argentina to have a local representation.

Joe: So the attempt, you know, because Argentina has such a strong club heritage, you know, obviously rugby is a big sport in Argentina, uh, much bigger than it is in lots of other South American countries. There is really good local player talent available. So the majority of each of the four franchises is made up of local players.

Joe: But obviously there is also kind of a national, um. Outlook, I suppose, because you don't want a particular franchise [00:07:00] to be under strength. And I think actually last season is probably the, the way to look at, at how Cabos are gonna get on, because Tarus joined the league for the first time last season and again, there were doubts about, you know, can you get up to speed that quickly?

Joe: Uh, they were in the race of the playoffs right until the final round of regular action. So I think the Argentine Union, looking at the players that have gone to CAPI boroughs, I think it's been pretty smart. Not only have they got some really experienced Super America's players and Doggos, they've also got a couple from Pampa that have gone over.

Joe: Uh, and crucially the head coach from Doggos, the title winning head coach from a couple of years ago, uh, Ola Tro has also gone across to CAPI boroughs, so they're gonna be, you know, they've got some now about them as well as some players that are getting that experience for the first time. In terms of whether it makes a league stronger, I think definitely because it adds that level of unpredictability.

Joe: And as a fan, as a spectator, what you want is that sense of, you know, who's gonna form, who's coming into the season stronger, and we can get onto that. I think Doggos on paper look as though they've lost quite a few and they've lost players, I guess, in two directions. On the one hand, as you mentioned, they've lost players at the top [00:08:00] end over to Europe, so they've lost their whole front row from last season.

Joe: Boris Vanger, Leon Vido, Pedro Delgado, two of those props are over in Harlequins, the Hooker now over in, um, Western Forces. You mentioned. Of course. Yeah. A lot of that doggos success in recent years. I mean, they, they've made the last three finals and won. One of them has been based on real dominance upfront, you know, traditional Argentine rugby.

Joe: They're based outta quarter, but they're physical, they're nasty. Very, very powerful set piece. And they kind of rebuild that or sustain that without their whole front row. We'll see. But when I look at the list of players, some of the high profile ones I agree, have gone to Europe, and as we're gonna discuss some others, some others have gone over to, um, cap Borough's, a new franchise, but there's real quality in that squad.

Joe: I mean, they've got, you know, Argentina International still, uh, especially in the presence of, uh, the Center Fassino, uh, Sanchez Ball, uh, who's unbelievably talented to play. He's already got one cap for Argentina, who's only 21. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Joe: So I wouldn't be writing Dogg US off just yet. Yes. It looks like it could be a transitional year after a real period of success.

Joe: Three [00:09:00] finals in a row. But I, I, I wouldn't be ruling them out just yet. 

Carl: No, I, I think, uh, uh, they've got a lot of hopes. They, they've always kept eyes on youth players coming through and they've got. I think they, everyone saw that, obviously Boris Ner, um, and Feather Delgado went, they were already blood and in the, the replacements at the, the end of last season, starting to get 'em through a little bit more.

Carl: I remember watching 'em against Pam Pass, I think it was, or Seum or what, and literally, I think they must have scored four or five tries on the bounce just from pick and goes under the post. They literally just, they, as you said, the forward dominance is just so critical for the Doggos and having, was it Moana, the, um, the nine, just being able to just snipe around the, the, the breakdown was critical for them.

Carl: Do you think they're gonna have to, they're gonna continue with that style of play, or do you think they're gonna have to adapt while they regenerate? Possibly. 

Joe: It's a good question. I guess the [00:10:00] answer comes from. The way they've played up to this point. I mean, it doesn't come out of nowhere. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Joe: There's a lot of KBA base players out of there, and that is the style of rugby that is being coached in quarterback. It's physical, it's aggressive, it's direct. You know, that's not gonna go away overnight just because they've lost a few props to Harlequins, you know, and whether or not they can match the intensity and the quality.

Joe: I mean, you know, the set piece gave them such field position from which you're able to sort of just grind teams down. I mean, you know, we love kind of black and white discussions in sport, don't we? It's rarely as simple as that. But you know, for anyone who's not aware, do os this big cord a base side, you know, hugely successful Pampas, the, uh, the Bueno air base side.

Joe: Huge rivalry because they're the two kind of older Argentine franchises. You know, on the one hand, Pampas are the ones who play very expansive rugby, incredible backs, doggos. Brutal, aggressive rugby up front. Of course, it's not as simple as that. Dog also got great backs, just like Pampa have great forwards.

Joe: But I'll be really interested to see how that rivalry continues this year because Pampa have finished first in the [00:11:00] regular table, the last two seasons, only to twice lose to Doggos. Uh, in the final, a couple years ago in the semifinal last year, and again, I was at that semifinal, uh, you know, Pampas were at home and Doggos just did a number on them.

Joe: They were too physical, they were too aggressive. Um, and you know, Pampas had all the ball, all the possession. Doggos seemed pretty content to let them have it because as soon as they got their opportunity to score, they were, they were clinical and you know, that again, won the big storylines going into the season as Camp Pampa, you know, finally deliver on the promise of the last couple of years.

Joe: They've been the best team the last two years in the regular seasons only to, you know, to choke in the playoffs. And that seems harsh, but you've gotta get a league title to, to prove those doubters wrong. 

Carl: It was literally down to the last game, even into the playoffs, as you were saying last season. 'cause we had.

Carl: Sn obviously managed to sneak in on the last game, didn't they? Into, into the top, but then obviously you literally had Tar Ruka in the, in the conversation. Obviously the Cobras were kind of, well adrift, weren't they? But Yaari were up there [00:12:00] as well. It, it, that the six teams out, the seven that were in there, was, was, was obviously very competitive in roll.

Carl: Were clear for a period of time as well at the top of the league. And then what I thought was gonna be the Warren Gatland effect come in, he turned up as a, as a, what was it, what was his technical name? I think it was a consultant or so, yeah. So, and then they literally lost what, two on the bounce since he turned up, didn't he?

Carl: And then they managed to turn it round in the playoffs and, um. It was close, close call for him. 'cause it could have gone badly. 

Joe: Precisely. I mean, you know, they got a lot of headlines with Warren coming in and I went over to Uruguay and I interviewed him and, and the, the guys over there spoke really, really highly of him as you'd expect, you know, someone of that kind of caliber coming in.

Joe: But, you know, what do you want as a fan if, if not parity? Right. You know, going into the final weekend, you're right, Cobrass didn't win a game last season, so they were very much adrift at the bottom. But apart from that, you've got six sides, all of whom were looking to get in the playoffs right down to the final weekends.

Joe: Them, as you say, looked down and [00:13:00] out with maybe four rounds to play. Yeah. And then kind of put this run together. I mean, you know, including some really big away victories to sneak into the playoffs. 

Carl: Big pen roll in the way, on 

Joe: the way beat pen and they beat dog from memory serves me correctly. Yeah. I mean, they sort of had to go on this incredible run to get in there.

Joe: It 

Carl: was impossible, wasn't it? It was just physically 

Joe: impossible. 

Carl: And then they somehow 

Joe: did it. They somehow got that, well again, if we know if we've learned anything about Chile and rugby every recent years as the impossible is, is a word that is not in their lexicon. But yeah, probably ran outta steam.

Joe: Having got to the semifinal, probably just didn't have anything left in the tank. I mean, they, they almost played three finals in a row just to get there. 10-year-old had enough to get past them. And then again, we spoke about that final already 10-year-old, you know, race away into this lead and it looks home and dry, you know, I'm sure Gatlin had the champagne on ice and then, you know, it, it looked as though Doggos were gonna make it.

Joe: And you know, there were some nervous 10-year-old fans in that stadium that day. But again, I mean, as a fan, what more do you want? Genuinely unpredictable outcomes, you know, multiple teams that can beat anybody on any given day. Yee as you [00:14:00] said, I mean, you know, Yee the Paraguayan franchise traditionally kind of the weakest of the nations that make up Super Americas, they beat 10-year-old, 36 8 earlier on in that season.

Joe: And again, you know, rugby, maths or any sporting maths is, you know, two plus two dozen equal four in sport, you know. But if you kind of. The Paraguayans are able to beat the Uruguayans 36 8. Yeah, the, the Uruguayans can beat the Argentine franchise and then that Argentine franchise is good enough to have players who can go and play their part in beating the lions.

Joe: I mean, it's, you know, you don't have to go too many steps before you, you know, the results really start looking kind of un unfathomable. Really, 

Carl: it's, it, it, it's just the gift on that keeps on giving, as you said, like there is no clear hose results. Pretty much like every, the, the amount of games that was probably won by a point or two or three points was quite sizable amount throughout that league.

Carl: 'cause it was so close. It was not just because the teams are rubbish, it was just because they're so competitive. [00:15:00] It was literally the amount of times that teams would get so far ahead then switch off or a yellow card. They love her eat yellow card down there as well as, as a few 

Joe: yellows got thrown around.

Carl: It's literally like a, like a confetti at times. Like they do get thrown around a fair bit, which probably brings teams back into games. But that's all about game management and like we also love that excitement that it is that jeopardy of what could go on. But I had the ple, uh, pleasure of actually chatting with Ben Donald before Christmas who played for the Cobras, and he was sort of saying that even with the Brazil side, a lot of their issue is mentality is obviously because they weren't, they, like he said, a lot of them would be, they'd get a few points behind and then there'd be like a little bit of bickering internally and it would sort of, they didn't, they were still work.

Carl: They're still working on that as a nation. And do, did you see that a lot within their performances within. Super rugby Americas last year. 'cause obviously they, they got a hide in most weekends, didn't [00:16:00] they? To be 

fair, 

Joe: yeah. As again, they're kind of the counterpoint to that conversation we're having about how there were six really competitive teams, but a lot of that was at the expense of the seventh.

Joe: And, you know, Cobrass, you know, they were on the rough end of some bad results last year and it, it felt like a step backwards. 'cause it, this, this year coming will be my third year covering the league out here. The first year I was here, they had some really good results. They beat Ardal and they looked like they were gonna take that next step and, and ultimately last year was disappointing.

Joe: You know, there was a, the head coach, Elia Ferra, who's also the head coach, national team, has since left the post. He left quite abruptly. I'm not sure anyone's quite got to the bottom of what went on there yet. The Brazilian side is always. Had a slightly different outlook to the other side. It, so for example, the, the comparisons often made is between Cobrass in Brazil and Yade.

Joe: And Paraguay because both of them are, are traditionally slightly weaker urban nations. The Paraguayans have relied quite heavily over the years on Argentine players to kind of supplement the local players. And gradually they've tried to increase their local contingent. The Brazilians went another tack and they tried to only have a handful of foreigners.

Joe: Last season, they only had [00:17:00] five non Brazilian qualified players in the squad. And, and ultimately I think last year, the gap between the quality of those Brazilian players, you know, some of whom are, are resounding in their hooker. And the, and the, um, Pinto is, is kind of a man mountain and, and often is kind of, it's huge.

Joe: Feels like he's carrying this team on his back at times. Um. This season, I think they've gone into it with a different outlook. They've doubled the number of non, uh, Brazilian qualified players to 10, including six South Africans this year. Which again, is a different flavor to add to the league, which is, you know, prior to that, largely been occupied only by South Americans with, with a few exceptions.

Joe: So, you know, cold Bross will be stronger this year. And Josh Reeves, who, who's gonna be taking over the head coaching role, having done that role with Brazil as well, you know, he knows what he's about. He's a smart guy, I think, and I'm not saying they're gonna, you know, win the title this year. That would be quite some turnaround.

Joe: They're talking about making a semifinal. But to go from from no wins last year to a semifinal this year would be pretty remarkable in of itself. But, you know, they're gonna be a tough side to beat this year. And I, you know, I think perhaps last year you might think if they weren't a gimmick, they were [00:18:00] at least likely to, to yield four or five points.

Joe: I think this season's gonna be quite different 

Carl: because they've, they signed that, uh, Roscoe spec. Yeah, the South African sevens. He's come also in as a technical advisor. As long as, as long side being a player. Do you, do you think they're gonna try and adapt that, that sort of seven style of you a rugby just go balls deep and if we, if we lose a hundred, a hundred to 99, then everyone's had laugh.

Carl: If we win 101 to a hundred, then job done. 

Joe: Yeah. Well, well I think again, you know, when we, we think about these nations, we've gotta think about kind of the, the, at the attitude of the nation to another sport. I mean, you know, Brazil is a nation that likes to entertain when it comes to sport. Um, you know, when I've spoken to the, the current Uruguay head coach, uh, Ru Ambrosio, who used to be involved with Brazil, likewise spoke to Josh, uh, Josh Reeves, as I mentioned.

Joe: You know, the thing they talk about is how these guys wanna express themselves. You know, it's, it's not a part of the world [00:19:00] where, uh, they want to play boring rugby or boring any sport. Now, sometimes you wonder whether, sometimes the ambition, uh, is slightly ahead of where. The team skillset is, I wouldn't say, I mean, on on the individual level, they've got some unbelievably good athletes.

Joe: I mean, someone like Roberto Tenorio in the Back Line center come wing, you know, six foot, two three rapid steps off both feet. They've got star power in the back line and they've got some, some top fours I mentioned. You know, Andy Pinero, you know, they leaked a lot of points last year and as you said, maybe, maybe they're gonna get into a tit for tat.

Joe: But, you know, uh, rugby is not traditionally the kind of sport where you get away with that for long. You know, someone like Rosco Spetman coming in is really interesting because. He's in his late thirties. He's obviously a huge name, you know, in, in terms of the league. He's a two time Olympic medalist. Uh, he's got a single cap for the spring box in fifteens as well.

Joe: You know, clearly he's gonna add quality and rugby knowledge that is on a different level to a lot of their playing staff. The question how much he still has left to contribute on the pitch. I mean, this is not an easy league, [00:20:00] uh, to come and just, you know, he, he's certainly not just gonna be here to mess around on the beach, you know, what he can deliver on the pitch remains to be seen.

Joe: But, you know, certainly his kind of rugby IQ will be massive for them. And you know, I'd love to see 'em chuck the ball around 'cause they've got the players who can do real damage if they're given front football. 

Carl: And when I was speaking to Ben as well, he sort of said, uh, there, there is probably that because rugby, a lot of the lads that take on rugby usually take it on a lot later, sort of in their 16, 17 80 after they've sort of come out of their football beach, football area and stuff like that.

Carl: So they, they've probably got a lot of kickers in the team that have probably been able to slight it from many distance. But as you said, the rugby IQ from, from. Players that are gonna come over and sort of adapt that that way will probably help him massively. One other thing he also highlighted was the travel was a killer.

Carl: Mm-hmm. And obviously not all of the clubs are cash rich. There's limitations with travel and. He, he did mention the Brazilians with the cobras and [00:21:00] stuff. A lot of it was bus travel. A lot of it was long journeys. There wasn't many stops. There was maybe there. Do you, do you think they're gonna be stronger at home than they are away from home?

Joe: Yeah, I think '

Carl: cause there are teams the same as France, like top 14. Some teams are, you can't beat 'em at home, go away from home. They look like they've never played rugby before in their life. 'cause they've got a. 94 hour bus journey that somehow they've not got a private jet. Don't get, 

Joe: yeah. Cer certainly, I think it's, it's worth remembering the kind of distances we're talking about here, right?

Joe: I mean, this is a big continent, you know, you're crossing mountain ranges, you're crossing massive, massive stretches of land. I mean, Argentina alone, you know, you're getting, you know, multi-hour flights just, and you, you look, you barely moved on the map. You know, it's, it's been easier in the last couple of years.

Joe: So prior to that, there was, uh, a USA based team, the Colorado Raptors. Um, and obviously that was an absolutely brutal, you know, bit of travel when they were involved. They had, they weren't in the league last year and they're not in the league this year, and it doesn't look like, as far as I'm aware, they're gonna be making a return.

Joe: So that obviously makes the travel easier. But, you know, the Sao Paulo journey to Santiago, for example, is [00:22:00] not an easy one. And it, you know, it does take its toll. South American rugby has been pretty good, as far as I'm aware. Of course. You know, I, I don't, you know, when I travel, I travel sort of. Solo. I'm not on these long bus journeys with them.

Joe: So South Mac Grubbs pretty good. You know, they organize a lot of the hotels and as much as travel as they can. I mean, it's one of the interesting things moving forward and one of the reasons that the league does need to grow commercially is that it, you know, when you have an international franchise tournament like this, I mean, anyone who's follows the USC will know this.

Joe: You know, those costs add up very, very quickly. You know, it's not like the premiership where you can get anywhere in the UK in a certain number of hours by bus or on a flight if it's one of the longer journeys. You know, these are long haul flights in some cases. And, you know, there is a financial cost to that.

Joe: And, uh, that's certainly one of the, the interesting questions over the next couple of years. I mean, the league is obviously happening this year and it's fully funded. I know that, um, there is, there are cuts at world rugby, uh, across the world. It's not only in South America, but. You know, it remains to [00:23:00] be seen about how the league, or whether or not the league can attain true kind of commercial sustainability on the pitch.

Joe: I mean, the product is, is improving every year. And, you know, there are some really promising, uh, stats around the growth of the sport commercially, I mean, viewership, uh, the league is broadcast here on ESPN and a lot of people get it with their Disney Plus subscription. The league's, uh, viewer numbers went up 20% in 2025 compared to 2024, which is really promising.

Joe: Uh, every, the average attendance last year was over 4,000 in Tarka over in two command. They got over 9,000 a couple of times in the stadium, you know, so you, there is potential for that, but those flights do add up. 

Carl: Uh, yeah, uh, we sort of touched on this briefly beforehand as well, and that the, the commercial element there, obviously with the, the MLR in the state that it is ESPN and Disney.

Carl: I've got, they've got the bubble around Super rugby Americas. But as we sort of said, it hasn't broken out towards the European regions and, uh, there's a lot of [00:24:00] demand elsewhere. And I think there's, there's, there's a lot more of a demand than they potentially are aware of at the minute that it could expand that league.

Carl: Because a lot of people are looking in thinking, how have they managed to go from a league that nearly died before it even started 'cause of COVID to now add, basically add in a franchise basically every season we're now up to, to eight. There's been one added or one change. There's been, there's enough people queuing up ready to join in the leagues.

Carl: How do you, how do you vision that commercial element? 'cause obviously. South American countries, as we know, are not well renowned for being affluent with different sports and sports. It's a lot, it's a lot harder. Obviously, there's a lot of financial struggles across the world as well, just between governments, et cetera.

Joe: Well, it's, it's a really, really complicated question. I'm gonna get my excuse in earlier there. 

Carl: Yeah. 

Joe: You are right to say there are franchises that want to join that are kind of being, you know, talked about. So there's, there's a lot of discussions about whether or not next year. [00:25:00] Uh, Chile will double the number of franchisees, whether they'll get a second franchise, probably in co conception, which is a city further south than Santiago.

Joe: There's been longstanding conversations about whether or not Uruguay will get a second franchise. Obviously in Europe have had great success in the tournament. So this, you know, maybe there's enough of a play pool there. 

Carl: We had Columbia before. 

Joe: There was a Columbia side. Yeah. Which, which, which fell out.

Joe: Um, and again, you know, there's massive instability financially, there's massive instability in terms of, uh, national funding. So obviously Chile have been one of the great success stories of recent years. Um, and they've had a lot more central government funding because the national team has done really well.

Joe: But even so, you know, there was a presidential election very recently in Chile, and I know there was uncertainty about the result of that and what that might mean for the sporting priorities of, of the, of the government. And when you are trying to build a professional league. From scratch across five countries.

Joe: I mean, it's really, really hard to predict what I would say. And you know, the, to your point about it, feeling a [00:26:00] sense of disbelief outside of South America because it feels like we're in a rugby landscape where clubs are contracting all the time. I mean, the, the situation in Wales, the situation in the MLR, the idea that there's a region of the world where it seems like every year there's a new team and that, that sense of excitement that comes with that.

Joe: You know, I don't want to wash that excitement because we should be excited by that. It's a great thing. Yeah. And it's, it's really, you know, on a personal note, it's been a really a kind of invigorating place to be covering the sport because it, it feels fresh, it feels exciting, you know, it's also worth pointing out that this is not professional in the same way as your, your, you know, Welsh Club side, our professional, or you know, the Ospreys and Cardiff, et cetera.

Joe: You know, the contracts here tend to run six months of the year. So these guys are not being paid professionals all year round, you know, we'll, we'll get onto this when we get through, um, you know, some of the other clubs, but certain players this year have decided not to take part in the league because, you know.

Joe: Rugby B is a short career. And unlike, you know, being an international in other parts of the world, you haven't got a long career of high level coaching or punditry ahead of you [00:27:00] necessarily. And people have to make sacrifices to, to play the sport that they love. And it's so hard to predict commercially how the league will fair.

Joe: What I can say is it, you know, the league generated more revenue last year than the year before. Not only accounting for the extra team, but also kind of, uh, even, even notwithstanding the addition of Tar Rukus, and I imagine it will do the same this year. The health of the, uh, the, the rugby financial landscape is as much a mystery, uh, in this part of the world as it is in many others, I'm afraid.

Carl: There was a few jungle drums around when obviously the Miami Sharks pulled out of the MLR. They were obviously predominantly an Hispanic team set up. Obviously there was jungle drums that they would potentially try and add themself into Super Rugby Americas. There's also mumblings of a Mexican franchise and the, I think they're gonna be called a or something like that.

Carl: Do you think a lot of this is people are getting ahead of themself, like obviously seeing it's growing or it, there is a long-term plan [00:28:00] that this will carry on growing. This will add more and this will open up doors ahead of that 20 th uh, 30, 20, 31 World Cup in America and potentially put the MLR in the shadow that it already is.

Carl: 'cause obviously the way it's grown, I still think the ML R's got a potential to be a great product. It's just they didn't build it the right way around. Whereas you look at super Rugby Americas, especially the Argentinians. You look at the model underneath, you've got the top 12, you've got all the other regional teams.

Carl: You've got a full development squad of all these regions, we, we like one, uh, Lucho is part of the channel as well. He had the opportunity to speak to Aine P Show, who said the way that Argentinian rugby is built from the bottom upwards. Obviously they've, they've tried to stretch themselves a little bit at the top sometimes, and they've, they've had to fall back a little bit, but.

Carl: The way they're building. There is a clear conveyor belt and a long sustaining ability today to probably add another two, two [00:29:00] franchises quite easily with the amount of players that are available down through the leagues and q and ready to come and play rugby at that level. I, I think the future's exceptionally bright.

Carl: It's just, you've gotta make the numbers balance as well and advertise it to a larger audience that's like four to four to 9,000 bands in a stadium each, each week. Brilliant. MLR most clubs had gone bust 'cause they couldn't even get 5,000 a, a, a week. I think their average attendance, when I did a, I did some work for a TR was, they're averaging three and a half thousand fans in a stadium every other week.

Carl: And like now they've got the California Legion that's gonna have five separate stadiums. So you get season ticket and you've gotta travel to five different regions. Like some of these are like getting, like, as you said, they're starting to get onto planes because obviously America's funny enough, not small either.

Carl: It's uh, who's a bit of travel there, who, yeah. Imagine that, that that little globe bit is a light. [00:30:00] Do you think it's, we've got, there's the right structure above Super Rugby Americas that it doesn't run away and it gets into the state of MLR where it's got 12 franchises and then it's gotta get to a point actually we've gotta hold back and everyone starts pulling out.

Carl: Or do you think the right structure at the top is there to protect the product that's moving forward? 

Joe: Yeah, so all the conversations I have with people involved in the league, you know, these are guys who are. Really, really passionate about seeing the sport grow. Not only this team grow or the league grow, the relationship between Super of Americas and, you know, south American rugby, the unions is much, much closer than the MLR, which is much more of a private enterprise.

Joe: Um, you know, for, for better or worse, there are, there are benefits to both systems, of course. So caution is, is the thing that I'm hearing a lot from these guys. I mean, you know, there are fans are the ones who want to, you know, bring in the sharks or let's go for another, another franchise in Chile or Uruguay now.

Joe: And the league itself, I think has been pretty wise in kind of urging caution, build the product, build the competitiveness because you know, you, you, you [00:31:00] have to have. Not only the sporting infrastructure ready, you have to have the, the right number of players, the right caliber of player in order to make a new team worthwhile.

Joe: But you also need the infrastructure in terms of flights and hotels and all the, all the stuff that we're, we don't want to think about, but is necessary when you're building what is an international league. And we shouldn't, you know, lose sight of that. This is, you know, border crossings and passports and things that, you know, most domestic leagues don't have to worry about.

Joe: There's nothing from the organizer's point of view that I see as kind of reckless or, or ahead of getting ahead of themselves. I mean, as a fan, we're always impatient, aren't we? We always want, you know, can't we get the second Chilean franchise? I, I wonder whether there is apprehension about. Too much, uh, close engagement with USA based teams.

Joe: Like I said, the Raptors were in the league. The, I mean, the travel is brutal. Let's not get around it really, I mean, it's a, you know, nine hour flight up to Colorado from here. You don't wanna be doing that, you know, multiple times a season. If you are, if you're an Argentinian franchise or a Chilean or whatever.

Joe: There was talk this year about maybe [00:32:00] having kind of a, an intercontinental, um, you know, finalist plays, finalist or winner, plays winner to, to work out who is the king of the Western Hemisphere. But those conversations are very, very early. Um, and, and likewise, you know, the, uh, I've also heard whisperings of, you know, the Mexican franchise, the Colombians making a return.

Joe: Those things are very, very early. Um, I'm sure that, you know, the infrastructure is being put in place for those things to perhaps come to fruition one day. But the one that looks the most likely at this stage is that Chile might add another franchise next year. Uh, and there's longstanding talk about whether or not Argentina will go up to five.

Joe: I think the, the long-term ambition is perhaps to get the league up to. 10 or 12 teams, but you don't want to expand in perpetuity because you end up having to get your, your wings clipped later on down the road. But to to be short's point, one of the reasons that. The, the league has had, has enjoyed more success here perhaps, or more sustainability than, than the MLR.

Joe: Aside from the fact that the USA is a more expensive country to house and pay athletes and, and fly around, [00:33:00] is the fact that in South America, particularly in Argentina, you do have a groundwork, a system of clubs in Buenos Aires, but also throughout the interior of Argentina with history, with passion, with high quality coaching.

Joe: And you know that it's worth its weight in goal when you have an existing fan base who, who know the sport, who already like the sport, who are willing to watch the sport grow. I mean, like I said, the, the team with the greatest attendance last year was Tarus, who were based out in two command. So, you know, I'd be surprised how many, you know, people in the UK or you know, wherever the listeners are, you know, could find two command on the map.

Joe: And yet there was a real rugby. Hub there already, you know, waiting for a professional team to, to take up, 

Carl: I saw it a few times on the, on the old X or Twitter or whatever we call it these days. There's a lot of American fans as well that kind of got completely disillusioned with the MLR because they were bringing in players from overseas for their potential, their last payday rather than recruiting American talent.[00:34:00] 

Carl: Do you think there's a lot more buy-in for these South American sides as well? Because they do, they probably went to school with some of the lads or they knew 'em 'cause their, their brothers mate, or they know where they grew up. They know their backstory, they know where they've been. So they're fully invested in making sure that they are 100% behind their region.

Carl: As, as we know, Argentinians just, they, they, they're the easiest people to get on with as well. They're so accommodating, but they live and die for their club. They're badge, they're country, they are fully invested. They all like it, it does seem to, they, they seem to know someone that knows someone that's knows someone that's done this.

Carl: Like everyone seems to know every, it's very much like they've got a cousin for a cousin for a cousin is, do you know what I mean? It's, 

Joe: yeah. Look, we, I mean, it's, it's human nature, isn't it? It's much easier to buy into a local team and if that team feels connected to the place it's in, you know, fantastic.

Joe: And, and I guess, I mean, look, you know, people who run the MLR are smart people, you know, they're, they're, they're not saying I've never made mistakes, but I, I, I [00:35:00] sometimes wonder about. Does an American, by which I mean a US rugby audience, are they gonna have the kind of brand buy-in If you bring in a big foreign star, are they gonna know that guy's career?

Joe: Are they gonna understand why that's a big deal? In the same way that, you know, when, I dunno, a New Zealander joins a prem side, you know, that prem side existing fan base is going to have an awareness of what it means to bring in all black or, or whatever. Maybe I'm being patronizing to MLR fans, but I'm not sure.

Joe: But no, I, I bet you're, I think, I think, you know, certainly I spent the first four months of, uh, of 2024 out in, in Santiago and Chile, and went to a lot of SEL games when I was out there. You know, massive, massive buy-in from local people, local, you know, and, and a real family affair. Which is the other thing.

Joe: One of the reasons that, you know, Kappa boroughs, they've got, you know, a lot of 'em are named after sort of slightly, um, or, you know, named after animals, is there is a, a desire to, to make the league a really attractive prospect of families. Uh, and, and obviously, you know, whether a families, there are kids and whether are kids there are future stars.

Joe: So there, there has been a, an awful lot of buy-in, I mean the Pam Pass games, you know, [00:36:00] normally afterwards, obviously they're the games I attend most often 'cause I'm based in Buenos Aires, you know, almost always there's a, you know, the kids and the parents run on afterwards and there's half an hour on the pitch afterwards with all of the fans, you know, mingling with the players and as you say, having photos with them.

Joe: And it's kind of hard to work out who knows who at that point. 

Carl: I love that though. There's the, like they do that over here in Spain. You can get the kids get on the pitch like that is, that for me is probably the best way to get. It's involved in the game, it's by them to, to meet, meet the players, meet the fans.

Carl: And it's, it's different because like, uh, my, my boys, they dab, they're dabbling in between rugby and boxing and football and like, they always still talk about, we went to, we went to watch, um, Spain against Brazil and Canada, Canada, Brazil, and uh, USA and we were able to get on the pitch afterwards. They were able to meet, meet the players and my, my boys still got graphs that he still tells everyone about that he managed to meet all these international rugby players.

Carl: And [00:37:00] like, even if he never goes to play rugby, like they're the sort of memories that you, that you remember as a kid, you get to get that, I'm sure you probably did as, as a kid. You got a, you had a book full of autographs. You couldn't remember who they are now because like it just looked squiggles. But you remember the memory.

Carl: And that's, that's the bit we've gotta try and not do with the, because obviously all the fans were able to get on the pit, uh, to together. We all sit together, we all have a laugh. Everyone's, there's a bit of banter and stuff. There's no malice. Like there's, there's a lot of, a lot of players that seem to be sort of shielded away.

Carl: I know obviously the safety side of it, but to let the kids on, let 'em run riot and then let 'em go and meet the players and they like have a kick around and they talk about that story for, for it. And do you think that also helps a lot of the clubs there to keep the families engaged? It's easy to, to let the kids get involved and see their faces at the end of it makes every penny worth it.

Joe: Definitely. I think, I mean, there's, there's a massive culture as, I mean as there is in Spain where you are of kind of. [00:38:00] You know, life is pretty intergenerational. There isn't that sense of kids don't go to that grandparents, you know, in Argentina and Spain and, you know, a lot of, uh, Latin countries, you know, if parents are going well, why wouldn't kids go?

Joe: So quite often the, the, you know, at the Pampa games for example, you know, the big sand on the far side, I'm obviously over there with the, with the press on the, in the cheap seats. Uh, the paying client clientele rightly are in the good seats. Uh, you know, and, and there's a football pitch behind where there's 50 kids who as soon as it's halftime, they run off there, play 10 minutes of football, they're straight back over to the stands in time for the second half.

Joe: And, you know, again, you know, one doesn't wanna over romanticize these things because, you know, these are people trying to make a living. And in Argentina's case, I mean, you know, this is a project that's designed to try and make Argentina a team that's gonna win the World Cup. I mean, no one's here for a charity, but you know, from my perspective, sometimes you're sat there and you do sort of think this is much more reminiscent of my, of the moments.

Joe: I fell in love with the sport when I was very young than it is something, you know, rugby that I've watched in the last 10 years. You know, it does feel. Kind of [00:39:00] more akin to those earlier memories. I mean, it's a fantastic league to follow if, if, if anyone's not getting through the enthusiasm through this episode, you know, it is such a privilege to be out here following the league.

Joe: It's, it's the players are, you know, really open. The coaches are open. They want to talk, they want to, they want to tell you about what they're doing in a way that, you know, inevitably in, uh, in bigger, more established leagues, you know, press officers and people are a little bit more cautious around the media.

Joe: You know, here people want to throw open the doors and they want to talk to you, and they want to explain what they're doing because they're really proud of it, and they should be because it's a, it's a hell of a league. 

Carl: Super impressive. So back to back to actually the league and the league ahead. So we got eight teams in.

Carl: Right. So we, we obviously saw P roll, won it, won it last year. Doggos nearly, nearly robbed it at a death. Cobra is at the, at the bottom end of the table. A few teams moving around at the bit, as you said. What's your, what's your vision of the, of the league table before we get to the playoffs? How do you do, do you see it much different?

Carl: [00:40:00] Do you see, are you gonna nail your, nail your balls to the wall on anything? Well, or is there, is there teams to watch, shall we say? 

Joe: It's, it's the guaranteed way of bring the journalist on and make him look stupid, isn't it? Right. In six weeks people will be saying, ah, you were wrong about this. Of course, uh, would be wrong about all kinds of things.

Joe: That's the beauty of it. Wouldn't it be boring if I knew what was gonna happen? The team, if, you know, if I was to make kind of a, a, a bolder prediction, the one I'd be really encouraging people to pay attention to would be sel them. I think sel them, and again, I'll just. Remind everyone, it's the Chilean franchise.

Joe: And anyone who's not aware, and I'm sure you know, your listeners will know all this already because they know their stuff. You know, Chile obviously qualified for the World Cup last year. They beat Samo over two legs. It was unbelievable. I couldn't get there. And it, it, it still haunts me that I didn't get over there to Val Paso for the, uh, the second win.

Joe: But, you know, Chile Chilean rugby is, has never been here before. It's never been in this position. It's on a high. And their squad, they've had a couple of players leave. Javier Iceman, uh, the second row went over to Europe. Uh, likewise in Yaki Guru Chaga. [00:41:00] The kind of larger than life, tight head proper was really important for them.

Joe: He's gone over to, to the D two in France. Two players leaving. It's not the worst thing in the world. And they've got some massive stars back. I mean, you know, to bring back Yo-yo Fernandez, Rodrigo Fernandez, and anyone who's not aware of this guy, he's like Chilean rugby royalty. He scored world rugby. Try the year back when they qualify for their first ever World Cup.

Joe: Uh, when they beat the USA to qualify for 2023. He's this incredibly important figure. When, when I, last time I was at a Chile International, he wasn't even playing and yet it was still a load of people wearing cutouts of his face. So, you know, he's a big star. He's back, he's been in Italy for a couple of years.

Joe: Uh, they've brought in Lucas Butti, uh, international Scrum half. You know, they look strong. They've got virtually the entire Chilean national team available. They've got a settled coaching staff. Jake Mangan, this is his third season as head coach. I think there is a feeling that if not now, when for, for Chile to, for, for seldom, sorry, uh, to possibly go and win the title.

Joe: So, you know, they would be my. [00:42:00] I don't wanna call 'em an outside bet because they were semifinalists last year and they're, they're a really good side, but you know, they've never won the title before. And this could be it. And as I mentioned next year, there's every possibility that that player pool will be split in half with the creation of a second Chilean franchise.

Joe: So there will never be this much Chilean talent concentrated in the capital again. So, you know, they would be a real, a real, um, dark horse for the title for me. Of course. Having, having never won the title before, they have to be dark horses, I suppose. 

Carl: Those that obviously don't watch 'em. What's, what do you think their best style is?

Carl: 'cause obviously we, we talk about, for me, I think they're probably the perfect mix of both. They'd love to get physical, but they also, they don't ask get it, get it wide where they want to. 

Joe: Yeah. I mean, I, I, I agree. So Jake's a new Zealander by trade, uh, the head coach and he's also the attack coach of Chile.

Joe: And again, anyone who watched, uh, those chili winds over Samoa know that. You know, they like to chuck the ball around. They, they play a really expansive offloading game. You know, it's very intense, high pace. Uh, but there's a real [00:43:00] abrasiveness tied to that, as you mentioned. I mean, you know, uh, anyone who's, you know what, so one of my favorite rugby players just period is this guy Raimundo Martinez, plays hookup, plays openside.

Joe: I thought he was very unlucky not to be the league's, uh, most valuable player last year. Ended up going to Simon Mon Beez Cruz. So shout out to all the Newcastle fans. But this guy is like, you know, he had his wier bit every morning before game day. He's like a live, why he put 50 P in him and he just goes, unbelievable over the ball, you know, kind of a diminutive guy.

Joe: Great jacker, but he carries for days, seems to find himself in the right part of the pitch all the time. And there's a kind of manic energy to the way they play. I mean, they've got, you know, obviously this is gonna be added to with, with Rodriguez and Andes. Yo-yo, coming back, as I mentioned, he's a fly half.

Joe: But you know, often they play with two Playmakers, whether it was Thomas Sal at Fullback or Juan Cruz at 10. So they can play that expansive game because they've got a playmaker either side of the ruck. Uh, they've got great strike runners. And again, Nicholas Nicholas Saab, who's this 20-year-old who came out of nowhere last year, scored, scored against Samo, [00:44:00] scored against Italy and the autumn, you know, he's this kind of electric live wire winger.

Joe: They've got threats all over the park. I mean, they're, they can, they can beat you up front. They can, uh, you know, go around you out wide. They can move the ball. They can win ugly, I think, I think they're a, they're a real threat this year. 

Carl: I, I remember seeing Nicholas Sa. Sort of blast onto the scene with that sort of super band diving, try into the corner and thinking how is that physically possible for any human, but to not drop the ball as well.

Carl: It was, it was something else. And I agree. I agree. I think they, they timed everything perfect last season, but obviously they basically played three finals in the lead up to that, their, the se their semi against Penner role. It was probably a step too far for it. 

Joe: But, and, and they, and they had injuries. I mean, you know, they lost, um, mark.

Joe: Yeah, they did. Martin Egrin, who's, you know, the, uh, the Chi national team captain, you know, really abrasive back rower. He ca he rejoined the side last season having been away for a few years abroad. And he looked, you know, a million dollars in [00:45:00] those first few rounds. His loss. He had an ACL injury. That was a huge loss for them and it looked like it was gonna be a big loss of Chile as well.

Joe: But they, they've still managed to get over the line and he's back this year. Uh, Domingo, SVE another center also got out and he's an experienced player. He's back, you know, and, and again, the addition of those players, I mean, they've got the biggest squad by a mile of all the teams this year. So you, you'd imagine that they have the depth this season, perhaps they didn't have in previous years to sustain a title challenge.

Joe: Even if they do get one or two knocks, 

Carl: it'd be a be a fun one. So the defending champions pen roll, probably a few question marks around the amount of players that they've let leave of such ilk as well. There's been quite an exodus from, from 'em. Do you think that's gonna seriously affect them? There's a lot of uruguayans quite concerned by the, the transfer activity, um, over there.

Joe: Yeah. I mean, let's, let's discuss some of the, the players who are not involved first and then we'll get onto it because there was a couple of good additions as [00:46:00] well, but. You know, obviously again, it's worth remembering that there is. Unlike a lot of club leagues over the world, around the world, there is also a national team perspective that plays into this.

Joe: And last season it was crucial that Uruguay had all their best players available. 'cause it was a qualification year, they did qualify. So next year, of course it's a big year because it's the World Cup year this year doesn't mean it's not important year, but of course if you're going to take a year off to recover from injuries or, you know, to, uh, to study, a lot of these guys are finishing university degrees, whether, so a lot of 'em have started businesses, they need to dedicate more time to, this is a year to do it.

Joe: Uh, so in terms of some of the high profile players that are not available, um, Philippe Vedi is the one that really stands out to me, the fly half. Um, not only is he a lovely guy, but he's a, he's a really, really top player. You know, he's been dealing with sort of niggling shoulder injury. He wants to give that some time to recover.

Joe: And, and also as I mentioned, you know, he's looking at 30 and he's probably gotta think about his career post rugby. I know he is, you know, um, exploring kind of what he's gonna do and, you know. We have to remember that these [00:47:00] guys are not earning the kind of money that a premiership player, a URC player is earning.

Joe: Uh, other important players they might be missing. Uh, so the Scrum Half Alvarez, who's a, again, again, a really top player, Carlos de uh, he is a really abrasive back rower. He's another one. 

Carl: Where's, where's Alva? He was absolutely. Dynamite during the November Internationals when he was, um, he was electric for him and probably the man of the match for most of their games during that November internationals.

Carl: So, 

Joe: so if memory serves he and Carlos de for finishing off degrees, uh, which obviously, you know, when, when you're playing rugby, you're constantly putting that module on hold or that assignment on hold. Yeah. And you know, they want to be back. Obviously for the July internationals, the plan is that they'll be playing for Uruguay.

Joe: 'cause obviously, you know, this new tier two competition, there's a lot of opportunity, um, to get kind of international recognition later in the year. But for the first half of the year, a lot of those guys are prioritizing life away from rugby. I know Felipe h very, so he is gonna be playing with some of his brothers at their old club.

Joe: So it's kind of a, again, it's one of those strange reminders of. You know, the, the quality that these guys have to compete with [00:48:00] really, really top players for their country. And sometimes in the latter stage of super America's rounds, but how close some of the rugby here still feels to an amateur world.

Joe: You know, a lot of the, there was no professional rugby in most of these countries five years ago, six years ago. So it's, you know, the idea that someone like him can go from playing with his brothers at his local club to then going and playing for Uruguay in the summer is, is, uh, something that still takes him getting used to, I think 

Carl: when you're, that talent it, like he is a, he is a talent.

Carl: He, his boot is, it is like a metronome for him. It's perfectly timed. Last season just kept the ball ticking and that probably kept pen a role in most games as well. Yeah. Was just his, his boot. And when it, when it wasn't going, they were out of most, most games, weren't they? Yeah. When he, we, he'd forgot to bring his boots along.

Carl: There was, they knew that. Yeah, it's probably not our day today. 

Joe: Yeah. And again, for, for, you know, for him, I mean, you know, he didn't, he probably didn't know how important those conversions were gonna be in the final 'cause they were racing into a lead. But he, I think he hit. Five [00:49:00] or seven from seven, I thought.

Joe: No. Five from five he hit. Yeah. Um, and obviously they ended up winning by a point. So, you know, he, he certainly brought his boots that day. But someone like him, I mean, you know, when Uruguay played Scotland a couple of years ago, you know, he missed some kicks and ultimately that game is one that maybe got away from Uruguay.

Joe: They, they were in it until the last 10 minutes and he missed a few, you know, so for him to come back from that disappointment and to go and, you know, nail five and five in the final to beat Doggos was, was a big moment for him. But, you know, they, they've got some players, you know, who aren't competing this year, but they're, they've kind of populated the ranks largely with guys from the under twenties, which I understand why people are thinking, well, maybe there's gonna be a drop off in performance.

Joe: But, you know, if you're thinking with your kind of medium ha term Uruguay hat on, you know, these guys have gotta, yeah, they've gotta get this experience and this is the highest level of rugby in the region for them to play. The big signing they've made is the return of Manuel au from Miami Sharks, the now defunct MLR team, as you mentioned.

Joe: I mean, he was the league's best player when he was here in 2023, uh, when Penny role won the league. He was, you know, one of the best tier two [00:50:00] players of any nation at the W Rugby World Cup in France. Could well be, you know, the best Jackee you've never heard of. I mean, he's so, so good over the ball. 

Carl: It's Phil.

Joe: Yeah, Phil, the guy is, the guy is, uh, you know, um, it might end up being that come the end of his career. It's a travesty. We never got to see him in a top, top, you know, European League or in Super Rugby Pacific, perhaps, because, you know, he really is, he's a tive guy. He is not a massive guy, but he is a top, top player.

Joe: And him coming back, you know, they, they might have the best back row in the competition. Even with all those people leaving. I mean, Lucas Bianchi. Manuel Auw and, uh, Manuel Deanna is a, is a phenomenally good back row for this level. I mean, all three of those guys, uh, you know, 

Carl: uh, start for Uruguay pretty much well and apart from De Dee Deuce probably normally gets in most of 

Joe: the time, but yeah.

Joe: But they're, they're really blessed in that area, so Auw, you know, yeah, he's a really big player and about, they've also done, you know, some smart other recruitment and brought in a winger, uh, whose name is Mardo from Newman, who's an Argentine winger. He was brilliant for Newman last year when they won, uh, the Buenos Aires championship.

Joe: And he looks, [00:51:00] I think he's got eight and 12 last year for them. He looks ready to make that step up. So, you know, a lot of unknowns about pen. I think that's certainly the case. You know, how, how strong a time for defense are they gonna be able to put together without those players. But, you know, write 'em off at your peril because there are some, you know, like I said, man, Ardell was the league's best player when he left and he's come back at a time when everyone's saying up and you all are gonna struggle this year.

Joe: Let's wait and see. 

Carl: I think the fans are just been fans. Well, of course, yeah. Bit pissed. Slide. Hold on this. This doesn't look like the normal side because to Thomas Vedi is the fallback for him still as well. He's the brother of Felipe, is that right? I 

Joe: think he, I'm, is he in the league this year? I'd have to check the, the roster.

Joe: I'm not sure. 

Carl: Yeah, I'm not sure. I thought he was, I know he was still around last season, unless he's obviously disappeared off. It wasn't on the the list, the exit list that I saw. So whether he is just. Refusing to leave. I don't know. But, 

Joe: but, but again, well, again, I mean, 

Carl: good players. 

Joe: Well, yeah, I mean there are some really good lads [00:52:00] out there who aren't, you know, yeah.

Joe: Who aren't the kind of names we've mentioned. But again, you know, do you want those Uruguayan fans who are also pen oil fans? It's that classic thing about what do you want now versus what do you want Na Nata, I mean, there'll be guys in, you know, this season who get minutes, who wouldn't have otherwise got minutes that might well be playing for Uruguay at the 2027 World Cup and they're gonna be better for the, for the minutes they get in this tournament.

Carl: It's obviously, they're obviously cover the Rugby Europe championships as well. I know we've strayed a little bit, but the Georgians have obviously had a bit of a management change and they're looking for this season in between for a lot of rotation for players to make sure that they've got that strength in depth.

Carl: 'cause you dunno what's gonna happen this season slash into next who picks up an injury. So e through the, through the pessimism of being a fan, there's probably the optimism of. The management of the national side, that actually the eye is on the World Cup in 27 rather than Super Rugby America. America's 

Joe: 26.

Joe: Yeah, I I quite possibly for the [00:53:00] Uruguayans, but again, I mean it's one of the things that when I talk to people who aren't familiar with the league and you tell them the countries that are involved, the assumption I think people have is that the Argentine teams win all the time. Like I said, pen year old, the most successful team in the competition's history, they've won three titles and Times.

Joe: Times, yeah, we should be, we should love the fact that Uruguayan fans are kind of slightly annoyed that their team isn't at full strength because they expect to win the tournament. You know, they think it's their tournament and that's, you know, that's fantastic because you've got Argentina, you know, beating the Lions last year, beating the All Blacks, you know, beating Australia, you know, won the, you know, the very best international sides.

Joe: And yet you have these Uruguayan guys a pen role, and when it comes to Super Americas, they think it's their tournament. And, you know, I think that's brilliant. 

Carl: Oh, it's, it, it just, just, they. The way it is it's played is I fell in love with it. And obviously you are amongst it. So there's, there's a reason to last te the team, team that finished top last season during the league format was Pampas.

Carl: How do you [00:54:00] envision their season? Obviously you don't wanna piss too many people off 'cause you go there quite often on their doorstep. So don't things being thrown as you walk down the street? Oh, no, 

Joe: no. I mean, I'm, I'm more than happy to speak my mind on that. I mean, look that, like I said, you know, I've, I've spoken to the head coach, Kwaman one Lagman a few times.

Joe: You, they're brilliant to watch. I mean, you know, it's, it's great having them as a local side because, you know, get on the train to go up to the games. Normally on a of an evening, they're fantastic to watch. They put on a great spread, great food available. The rugby beat's fantastic. They throw the ball around, they often score, you know, 5, 6, 7 tries.

Joe: They've gotta win the title. Ultimately, I think there is that feeling that they are. You know, the team of the capital, city of the biggest rugby nation in the competition, and they've, they've failed to win the title despite being the best team in the regular season the past two years. I think there is, they need to get that monkey off their back.

Joe: You know, they've, they've had some big player losses as well. I mean, again, another example of some of that. I, I think the thing that surprises people is quality of player coming out of this league and what they're able to do really quickly. I mean, [00:55:00] you know, I know people like Pollock rightly, you know, got headlines last year for being breakthrough players.

Joe: But, you know, for me, someone like Sto Piata though the Argentina Center, literally, you know, I, I've watched him for the last couple of years of Pam Pass and always thought he was a top player, I thought in the England Argentina game at the end of the autumn. He might have been the best player on the pitch last year.

Joe: I mean, he was phenomenally good physical abrasive, you know, played it, beat the lions, as I've said, played almost every game for Argentina last year, straight out of a super rub America season. He's now a, a Montpelier and he, you know, he'll be a loss, he'll be difficult to replace quacking model. He is also a Lester now.

Joe: For me, the, the big loss that I look at, not that picardo isn't, you know, the, the headline loss, but for me the big loss when I look at depth is probably Thomas Ti the tight head who's now gone. Tolus. Yeah. And he is a supremely talented player, 20 years old, tight head, you know, passes like a fly, half moves like a center, but you know, he is 20 stone or whatever he is.

Joe: Where Campas came unstuck the last two seasons was against Dagos, the grunt physicality. It was the physicality, it was a [00:56:00] set piece. So to lose him again, he's obviously been capped by Argentina as well, Rupe last year to lose a, a tight head of that caliber, I think, you know, are those same doubts, those same questions gonna rear their ugly head again.

Joe: A few other players, they've gone, Manuel Bernstein, who's captain them, he's gone. Two Kapp boroughs. Uh, Nicola DAMing, who's a, you know, really abrasive back rower of theirs. He's not in the squad 'cause he's got a long-term injury this year. So they look slightly lighter up front in the back line. They look as as impressive as ever.

Joe: I mean, they've also probably made 

Carl: Tobias, Tobias Wade, their 

Joe: Tobias Wade, a few guys are come in from the Argentina seven circuit who just look ready to hit the ground running. They've still got Santiago pnas. I'm amazed that he hasn't been picked up by somebody in Europe yet. Cap Argentina last year and, and, and scored I think against Munster and the Argentina 15 tour as well.

Joe: You know, someone like him, he's probably looking at this season as. This is the one where trans, you know, if I have another good year. Exactly. Another, another, you know, big European side will come for me. But the, [00:57:00] the big signing that Pampa have made is kind of at the other end. They've brought in, uh, Sant, Diego Cordero, you know, 56 Cap Argentina International.

Joe: And it's kind of one of the first times the league has looked to those really experienced. I mean, the guys, like I said, 12 months ago, or not even seven months ago, he was scoring the winning try against Alliance for Argentina. He's only 32 and he's now, you know, playing in Super Rugby Americas. So, you know, his experience maybe will help 'em get over the line in, in, you know, they're gonna be there, what they're about.

Joe: Again, they've, they've never been far away from the playoffs or the title, but until they get that first star, people are gonna continue to, to question whether they've got it in them 

Carl: and to bring Bat Stu Fae over from Penole as well. And they, they've added a few players. Do, do you really think, do you think.

Carl: It's gonna be down to their design of play that could potentially, it is gonna be their Achilles heel again, the, the EY rugby that against some of these dogged teams that are a willing to front 'em up, is that where they're gonna potentially gonna come [00:58:00] unstuck? 

Joe: Yeah, it's, I mean, it's a good question. I dunno, it's hard to predict whether or not it's a, a mental thing.

Joe: I mean, it's only been doggos really that have managed to, to do that. And it's not, 'cause other teams haven't tried. I mean, when they're in full flight, they, they look like the best team in the competition. They look, you know, pretty irrepressible at times. Like I said, the semifinal last year, I probably, you know, I'm not a betting man, but I probably would've stuck something on Pampa to get it done because they, you know, they, they just looked like they had, they were ready to step up to that, you know.

Joe: But again, we don't have, the question marks about is are they gonna face the same doggos as years gone by? You know, can Doggos do that to teams now having lost that front row that we discussed earlier on. So again, unknowns, which is what you want going into a season. Pampas, I have very little doubt will be.

Joe: Involved at the latter end of this tournament. They always seem to be a hundred percent. And, you know, unlike some of the other teams, they, they've got a really settled coaching staff, Lusiman's entering his third year. Um, you know, the players love him. They play a really expansive brand when they, when it when it works, they blow teams away when it doesn't dogar [00:59:00] seem to get it won over them.

Joe: But again, that's a, a game in round two. It's the first home game for Pampa. I'll be there on the 28th. I cannot wait for that one. And we'll know a lot more then. I mean, after those first two rounds, we'll have a much clearer sense of where the power lies in Argentine Super Rub America's franchises this year, 

Carl: we've obviously got Roku as well.

Carl: Obviously they've, they've lost a few. They've gained a few. Um, they've obviously lost Bonita's Cruise, um, to the. The, the cash cow that is Newcastle at the minute, Thomas Medina's gone as well. Nicola Roger was a good player again last season for him. They've managed to keep Vivas though, as well, which is I think is probably a bigger coup for them than actually potentially some of the players they've lost.

Carl: Where do you think they, they, they stand? Do you think they're stronger or they're weaker, or do you think they're gonna be there or thereabouts having a sniff at the, the playoffs? 

Joe: Yeah. 

Carl: Not quite there yet. 

Joe: Well, it's, it's, again, it's a good question. I think when you enter a team as a, a league, as a new team, there's, you know, all bets are off [01:00:00] really.

Joe: And I think they, they certainly overperform my expectations, the idea they could come together that quickly and perform as well as they did. And, and Simon Benita Cruz is probably a good example of the way this league works. I mean, I interviewed him a few months ago and he was telling me that. He didn't, he, he was his first professional contract he'd ever signed.

Joe: He's, he played a few games as kind of an invitational player. The season before for Pam Pass this offer came to go to, to Rukus, to command, to move upticks and, and go off to a different city. And he sort of thought, well, why not? And he only signed the contract, I think five weeks before the season began.

Joe: And last season he was the most valuable player and, you know, has, has since played seven or eight games for Argentina and gone off to Newcastle. So, you know, this league has the potential to springboard guys from, from, you know, complete obscurity right up to the, uh, top league. So, you know, they, they're gonna struggle to, to replace that duo in particular halfback, I think, you know, beneath Cruz and Rugger, they were just, they, they just seemed like they'd been playing together all their lives last year.

Joe: Benito Cruz Rapid, loves a snipe, Raje, cool, calm, collected. And actually we saw that combination [01:01:00] at the end of the year. Uh, rip whales to pieces. I mean, those are the two starting halfbacks for Argentina against Wales. So again, the ability to bridge that gap of quality to international rugby, uh, it was on display for me.

Joe: They've got real quality, uh, out wide as Sweeney's an unbelievably talented winger. They've also brought in an experience international Mattias Orlando, again, multi, you know, 40, 50 caps for Argentina. So he, you know, he'll come in and I'm sure will replace Medina in the center kind of guys at opposite ends of their career, but still got tons of quality.

Joe: The bit of business I think looks really smart from them is to bring in Nicholas Ada height, who's this big. Abrasive back rower. He was at Yaday last year, but he is Argentine. He looks a really good bit of business because he's so abrasive, so physical, guarantees you front football, you know, 17, 18 stone.

Joe: I think he's a really, really smart addition play six or eight normally hard to predict where they'll be exactly, but with a settled squad mostly if they can replace the balance provided by those two halfbacks, I think they've added [01:02:00] really nicely in other areas to, to perhaps go one step further and make the semifinal.

Joe: But as we mentioned, last season's, performers won't be enough to get into the semifinal this year. The quality has increased across the board and you know, everyone's gonna have to be better. If you've got fourth place last year, you need to be better to get fourth place this year. 

Carl: Agreed. We've obviously, pretty much, we co, we've pretty much covered the dog or some, we've co covered Cosal already as well, leaves us the Capybaras, the new franchise in town.

Carl: Nobody's left 'cause obviously there was nobody to leave. They've not technically got. A core backbone of players. They've gathered some very shrewd sign ins, though they've obviously managed to acquire a few OGs. But the ones that stand out for me was Laro Ani and Juan Ba Baroni, uh, Baro, just his, him at Ted Baro was just for dos, was critical when he was just, same as when Veri had his kicking boots, it was just [01:03:00] keep that board ticking.

Carl: And that's, that I think that also kept dos in. Do you, do you see them being a dark horse for anything this season, do you think? 

Joe: Yeah, I think so. Se seven of the KA squad have actually won this competition despite it being their debut season. So it's, it's not a bad, uh, kind of start in life to get seven former winners with Dagos and a former head coach who's won the competition with GTO as well.

Joe: Cipriani, as you mentioned, is a, is a top, top player. I think he's 21, 22 plays on the wing. Rapid, you know, steps off both feet. Another guy who I think, you know, cons was looking at pretty closely last year, uh, didn't end up getting capped, but went with the Argentina 15 on tour and he's another one a bit like per NAS that might be looking if I, if I have a good run of games and I can score a few tries this year, you know, the world's my oyster, I could be capped by the end of the year.

Joe: I could be getting a contract abroad, you know, so if he has a year like last year where he was, you know, unplayable at times, he could be in the mix. Baroni, you're right, is a really interesting one. Um, you know, probably slightly, [01:04:00] slightly less mercurial than actually very, very, I think when he takes the ball to the line, kind of has, has a lovely balance to his game.

Joe: Baroni a little bit, little bit more conservative in his son of play, but unbelievable Boots physical. And again, he's one of those players that when you watch him live, you hear him, you know, he's barking orders constantly. Probably didn't have his best game in the final last year. And so for someone like him, I suspect unfinished business.

Joe: You know, he, he didn't. He struggled a little bit. Time made a few mistakes against penal, and like I said, I mean there were a lot of Doggos players from last season with, with access to grind because that one, they'll feel like they could have got that win if they hadn't got off to such a poor start.

Joe: He's obviously not with Dagos anymore, but he's got an opportunity to, to really be a senior figure at this new club. So it's very, very hard to predict with a new site how they're gonna do. If the example of Tarus is anything to go by. The people in charge of assigning where these players go, the Argentine National Union who obviously have a lot of oversight in where some of these players are.

Joe: You know, if LAR didn't anything to go by, they know what they're doing because they managed to get Tar Rukus from never having played a game of [01:05:00] rugby to being within, you know, a few points of the playoffs on the final weekend. So, you know, I wouldn't rule them out at this stage. It'd be an amazing ask for any new team to, to go and win the competition.

Joe: So I wouldn't be betting on that either. But, you know, they, they, they've, they've got some top players and Bernstein as well. A guy back rower in from Pampa, you know, he was Captain Pampa in the past. He's a senior player. You know, they'll be tough to beat from the off I expect. But again, like Tar Ruku, they'll probably also get better as the season goes on and the more time they spend together.

Carl: So they've got heightened as well from uh, Pam Pass as well, aren't they? They've 

Joe: got some, yeah. Bru height at the center again. Yeah, they've got plenty of league experience. It's just a case of how quickly you mentioned all the teams were in pre-season. I mean they, most of the teams started about 10 days ago.

Joe: You've got about four, five weeks to get these guys together, which is not nothing, but it's a, it's very different if you're bringing a load of guys who've played together for the last couple of years back compared to guys who might not have played together before. 

Carl: Do you think with the, with the CAPI MA as set, set up, getting the right coaching that is, has been crucial there.

Carl: That could, that will build it [01:06:00] from the ground up rather than trying to worry about star sign-ins if you get the right management model in with that experience to build that. Franchise properly, that, that will make them serve themselves better within the league rather than just humming in and just be the whipping boys as most starting sides do.

Joe: I, I think, definitely, I think Ro is someone, uh, you know, really, really respected within Argentina, within the kind of coaching fraternity. He's got a lot of admirers. Uh, he's, he's a, he's a pretty intimidating guy. When you see him up close, he's a big guy. Uh, you sort of get the sense he's probably quite a hard taskmaster.

Joe: But I think one thing that we shouldn't underestimate is, you know, yes, they've got these guys in who've, who've experienced this league before. There is a lot of local players, a lot of players from the Lital region who are gonna be playing for Kapo for the first time. I'm not saying they haven't had great coaching at their clubs, but you know, they're gonna be exposed to a new level of, of professionalism of, of, not only from gala, but also from these other pros that they're dealing with for the first time.

Joe: You know, some of these guys have been involved in [01:07:00] Argentina camps. They've worked with omi, they've worked with, you know, gala at, at Doggos. So it's not only that you kind of, you know, if you think about a normal professional league, if you will, where you get a load of guys together and you hope they become more than the sum of their parts, a lot of these guys are gonna be getting better week by week, month by month, because they're being exposed to a level of professionalism, a caliber of coaching, a quality of teammate that they've never experienced before with their local clubs.

Joe: So that's one of the great things about this league. I, I know I'm repeating myself here, but it, it's, it is just so unpredictable. You know, there will be guys from the Lital region who've been watching as quarterback, get their team, Buenos Aires, get their team to command, get their team, you know, desperate for this opportunity and they're not gonna want to give up without a fight.

Joe: And, you know, Argentina is a, a fiercely proud nation and its provinces are fiercely proud. And you know, anybody who thinks that, you know, when you go to these Doggos Pampas games or you know, Tarus Pampa or any of these, Darby, I mean they get on fine when they're with Argentina, but there's plenty of spite in plenty of bad blood.

Joe: So they'll be wanting to get one over their opponents as much as they [01:08:00] can. 

Carl: Mate, I just. Just the passion from you being part of it and just I fell in love with the league. It's for those that haven't obviously had the opportunity, it's, it's definitely one of them. It's the time to, to get into it. 'cause the hard yards have been done and now they're probably gonna see the, the better bit.

Carl: We're coming towards the end now I think, mate, but I think it's time to put you on the spot. Finals contenders, who's, who's gonna be in the final 

Joe: Oh right gun to my head. I think Sel 'em are gonna get over the line. I think Sel 'em are gonna win the competition. And again, I'm, I look forward to hearing everyone tell me I'm wrong when, when they finish fifth, I think Sel 'em can go over the line and I think, I think it'll be a selt and Pampa final.

Carl: Biggest surprise 

Joe: I think, I think Cobrass, I think purely because I don't think they're gonna, you know, trouble the semifinal sports. I, I love the ambition that that's what they're going for. But I think to go from a team last year where, you know, there were some tighter games, but for the most part, teams were pretty confident of getting four or five points when they played them.

Joe: I think they're now gonna be much more of a player in the rest [01:09:00] of the league because they might not make the semifinals themselves. But if you slip up against them, as I suspect teams will this year, they might be the reason you don't get in the semifinals. So I think cobrass are gonna be a big surprise.

Joe: I think the addition of these South Africans is something we've never seen in the league six South Africans, including Roscoe Beckman, as you mentioned. So I think, I think Cobrass are gonna upset a couple of teams. 

Carl: Biggest disappointment, 

Joe: I think only relative to where they've been. I think Doggos. Uh, uh, are gonna struggle initially to replace the caliber of, of Front five player.

Joe: I mean, it's not just that front row I've mentioned in the last two or three years, they've also seen FRA Elias go to to Lose. And Franco Molina, I mean, it's a pretty impressive front five to lose over the course of a couple of years, and you can't, you know, replace those guys straight away. It will take time for the replacements to really, you mentioned they played last year, but to really step up to be those first choice.

Joe: So I, you know, I think if I was a Dogg or fan, you know, maybe you'll look back at the last three years. Like I said, they made three finals in a row. They only won one of them. Maybe you'll look back and think we should have won two titles or maybe even three, because, you know, this [01:10:00] season they're not quite where they were.

Joe: But look, I look forward to seeing them prove me wrong. 

Carl: I think Elias's Brothers in the, in the setup as well. Yeah, he's coming through. 

Joe: It's another great thing about the league is his brothers all over the place. 

Carl: Just, he's actually looks, looks a half tidy player. So maybe he'll be following his brother across the, across the continents in a couple of years time.

Carl: Apart from yoursel prediction. One other bowl prediction that might look crazy. Right now, 

Joe: I think, again, this isn't kind of strictly for the league, but I, I, I, I feel as though this might be the year that we finally see non Argentine players begin to make that transfer over to Europe. Because I think there has been, I dunno whether this is solely because, I dunno whether it's a Visa thing or, I dunno whether it's because, you know, when you sign an Argentine player, there's a kind of expectation that we know Argentina produces top players.

Joe: But when I look at some of the Chileans, some of the Uruguayans that are, you know, getting to the latter stages of these tournaments, winning these tournaments, and I look at. You know, teams in Europe who might need a winger, need a fly [01:11:00] half, need a back rower. I would be, you know, my, my bold prediction is that this is a year that we start to see more of those tier two nations sending players abroad, guys getting signed up in France, uh, and, and, and the premier as well.

Joe: I mean, there are, there are a few, but there're very few and far between. Diego Escobar, the Rasing Hooker is probably the, the highest profile Chilean currently playing outside of Chile. And, uh, and he's done, he's done really, really well. I mean, he's, you know, alternates first or second choice for Rasing at Hooker, you know, in a, in a tough league to be a hooker.

Joe: And he does a grand old job. And there, there were others here. And when I spoke to him, it was one of the things that he was really keen to stress is that there were a lot of Chileans who are good enough to go and play in those leagues. And I wonder whether this is the year that the rest of the rugby kind of eco sphere, if there is such word 

Carl: Yeah.

Joe: Begins to pick up on that and looked at it as a new, uh, a new opportunity to sign some, some fresh talent. 

Carl: I hope so too. It does seem to be like there's, there's only one recruiter that stays in Argentina. It doesn't seem to get past. Chili, Euro choir or anything, all of those sort of clubs. So hopefully [01:12:00] it, I agree, I'm, I'm fully on board with that prediction.

Carl: For someone tuning into Super Rugby America's first time, which of the early games in the season that are the ones that you want to try and click and save as, as getting on the on the record button? On your, on your YouTube to watch the highlights at the minute. 'cause it's not available in Europe, is it?

Joe: So, yeah. So yeah, that's a good point worth pointing out that uh, there is no current, you know, broadcaster outside of South America, but all of the games highlights are on YouTube. Um, I also do a weekly roundup for the rugby paper. Maybe we'll talk about that before the end. Uh, you know, so it's, it, there are easier leagues to follow.

Joe: I grant you, but I trust, believe me, you won't regret it if you do start following it. I think the two that stand out to me in the early weeks are pen year old Snam, which I think is week three. Um, it's the oldest kind of fixture in the tournament's history that Ill-fated 2020 season kicked off with pen year old snam.

Joe: And it's kind of affectionately referred to as the kind of the old classico of, of superb Americas, uh, you know, the, the Chileans and new wines, obviously the two leading tier two, [01:13:00] uh, nations that participate. So that would be a really interesting one because we'll know a lot more after that game of, you know, how much have 10-year-old dipped.

Joe: You know, after those player, uh, absentees and, you know, ask SEL the real deal, you know, can you go and do a number on the defending champions? You know, SEL won't care who's on the euro, on the pen euro roster as far as they're concerned, right? These guys are defending champions. They're the most successful team in the league's history.

Joe: We want to go and put a marker down in week three and get one over them. So that one, I think would be a key one. And the other one, the Doggos Pampas, uh, or Pampas Doggos. It's, uh, in bonus res week two. Bad blood, plenty of rivalry. They were the finalists, uh, in 2024. Dagos knocked out Pampa in 2025. It, it, you know, the rematch is on.

Carl: For those that obviously aren't aware as well. We've got Friday, the 20th of February is the start of the season. Got doggos against Ros and then taas against Selan. Uh, Saturday obviously we've got the, the other fixtures. We've got your CAR A against [01:14:00] Pampas and then the CAPI bar start their life in Super Rugby Americas at home to the raiding champions PIN role.

Carl: It's. That's, that's a proper baptism or welcome to fire, isn't it? Like ego? Yeah. 

Joe: It doesn't 

Carl: your first fixture. 

Joe: Yeah. There's no, there's no uh, there's no stabilizers. They're been thrown at the deep end. Right. 

Carl: Imagine that though. If they get that opening day victory, like I'm sure there's gonna be enough fans up for it, and that's probably if they, they, they can't get up for a, for a game like that.

Joe: Well, 

Carl: yeah. 

Joe: Absolute there much hope for 

Carl: the rest 

Joe: of the season. I mean, but the first round of the first season I covered in South America's 2024 season, uh, cobras Beat Penole, who were also defending champions that day on week one. So, you know, it, it can happen and you know, if Kappa Boroughs go and get the jump on pen oil that early, then they'll put the rest of the league on notice.

Joe: I mean, like I said, you don't have that many people who've won the tournament and you know, they'll believe they can win the whole thing 

Carl: because we, so we, it basically runs from the end of Feb till the start of June on the normal season, doesn't it? Yeah. And then we've got the semi-finals and [01:15:00] then the final, yeah.

Carl: So by, by the 20th of June, we, we will be all wrapped up roughly. Um. And then most of these players will be probably jumping on planes going to international camp. 

Joe: Yeah. 

Carl: Like they did last season. Like some of them literally got out of the, out of the final, out the changing rooms were on a plane to the, to the summer tour, weren't 

Joe: they?

Joe: Yeah. No. And I think maybe, again, maybe listeners don't quite realize the numbers that we're talking about here. I mean, the Argentina squad that faced the Lion, obviously there was, you know, like the, it always is with the Lions, there's still club seasons ongoing in Europe, so they didn't have everybody available, but there was 13 super Rugby America's players in that squad.

Joe: So it's a, you know, a, a third of that squad that faced the lion. Um, the wider squad, not the match day squad were made up of super rugby America's players. As I mentioned. I saw a load of them, you know, in tears after losing to pen role. And then I saw them in tears beating the lines a couple of weeks later.

Joe: I mean, it's a, it's a crazy thing. And when it comes to the other nations, you know, we're talking. You know, the whole 23 will be in the squad for, you know, penny roll or Uruguay [01:16:00] Orsham Chile, uh, who will be going off to try and compete in this, uh, this new tier two competition. So no rest of the wicked, but I mean more rugby for the rest of us.

Carl: Perfect. And obviously you can keep abreast of what they're doing all the way through the season and then catch 'em in the bent and nationals. Joe, just wanna say thank you so much for jumping on, mate. For those that want to find out more from yourself, obviously rather than listen to me Rabbit on about it, they can also find a, a man in the know that's in the place.

Carl: Where can they find you? What, what work do you do and where can they, uh. Reach out and dabble and get it, pick your brains if they, they wanna try and find more about Super Rugby Americas, 

Joe: so easiest place to find me is on X Twitter, whatever we're calling it, whatever, whatever that site that is these days.

Joe: So if you wanna message me on there or follow me on there. My name is obviously the same as my name. You can see on the screen Joe Santa Maria. Most of my super rugby Americas reporting is in the rugby paper. So I do a weekly roundup. I've done a pre-season, uh, kind of preview of all the teams and I'll do, like I said, a weekly roundup.

Joe: It normally goes out Monday or Tuesday after the fixtures. I also do work [01:17:00] in, uh, rugby Pass and a few other publications. But the best way to follow up up to is on x if you're on there. 

Carl: It took us a little while to get this one in the diary mate, but it's been a hundred percent worthwhile. Um, thank you so much for your time mate.

Carl: Um, we know where we've gotta look. Watch out for it's sel. We're gonna win the win the Super Rugby Americas basically. 

Joe: So I'll be, see if they thank me for that prediction or not. 

Carl: For everyone else that's been watching us. I really appreciate your time. Hope you've enjoyed this one and found a new league to watch rugby.

Carl: At stupid o'clock in the morning. If you're in Europe or anywhere else in the world, it's on a, a city time. If you manage to get a a stream or you manage to watch the highlights because it is well worth every moment in your life. And yeah, we've got plenty more coming up, not just super Rugby Americas, we're approaching the Rugby Europe championships that's on the horizon.

Carl: Oh, it's just the perfect time for rugby. And the rugby TTL podcast is back. We are back on stream. We're back everywhere. Just make sure you subscribe, like, and follow and just really appreciate your time. Thank you. And [01:18:00] goodbye.