Rugby TTL - Series 2 - Episode 33 - Whats All the Ruckus

Tier 2 & Tier 3 Rugby’s Future: Rugby Europe, MLR, World Cup 2031/2035 & Growing the Game | w/ What’s All the Ruckus

Rugby TTL hosts Charlie from the What’s All the Ruckus podcast to discuss why they focus on tier two and tier three rugby, the lack of mainstream coverage, and how journalism and podcasting can spotlight overlooked nations and stories. They talk about guest interviews (including Finnley Harrison) and the balance between exposure and “clickbait” via outlets like The Ruck. The conversation explores where tier two/three rugby could be in 2, 5, and 10 years, the limits of the Nations Cup, the importance of Tier 1 ‘A’ sides, and the need for better calendars, promotion/relegation clarity, and marketing. They cover MLR stability, Super Rugby Americas growth and broadcast access, Rugby Europe Super Cup funding, potential competition restructuring, and the potential impact of USA 2031 and Spain 2035 World Cups.

00:00 Podcast Collaboration Intro
00:44 Why Cover Tier Two
01:56 Grassroots Sports Magic
03:12 Guests And Ruck Debate
06:26 Interviewing Finnley Harrison
08:18 Future Of Tier Two Rugby
09:27 Nations Cup And B Teams
13:21 USA Rugby And MLR Reset
15:48 Super Rugby Americas Growth
19:26 2035 Spain World Cup Dream
21:37 Rugby Europe Super Cup Funding
24:31 Restructuring Rugby Europe
26:08 Fixing Tier Two Calendar
27:10 League Model Proposal
28:28 Travel And Notice Boost
29:27 Showcase Friendlies Examples
32:21 Marketing Beyond Rugby Bubble
37:14 Changing Rugby Perception
40:55 Atmosphere Pricing Lessons
43:59 Favorite Guests Stories
47:52 Ultimate Guest Dreams
49:56 Where To Find The Pod
51:47 Final Thanks And Signoff

Transcript

Carl: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of a Rugby through the Links podcast. This one is actually a collaboration with another amazing podcast that's also trying to spread the word of tier two, tier three rugby, and just every hidden gem that we all love about the game that the mainstream media don't seem to fancy.

Carl: We are joined by Charlie today, one half of What's All the Ruckus podcast. How you doing mate? You alright? 

Charlie: I'm very well, thank you. Thank you for having me on it. 

Carl: So for, for those that haven't sort of, 'cause you guys are predominantly more, a bit more on sort of X or Twitter or whatever the world wants to call it, you're predominantly more on that.

Carl: You've, you've had some amazing guests on mates, so really, really massive kudos for that. But a lot of people are starting to find the love for the tier two, tier three. What made you sort of dive into it? Similar to us. 

Charlie: I started getting into journalism about year and a half ago now, and I realized there's not much coverage at all about rugby beyond, you know, six Nations rugby championship.

Charlie: And you know, you are [00:01:00] one of the few people alongside us now who actually. Give it the spotlight that you know, it, it definitely deserves. So to me it was a real eye opener going into journalism and realizing actually there's not, there's not much about rugby. 'cause it is. 'cause it is super interesting.

Charlie: All these, all these stories and all these people from across the globe. It, it was interesting enough in football and obviously everyone plays football. Rugby is a niche sport. With niche country. So it's just niche on niche, which I mean is right up mine and Josh's street. But yeah, there's just, just so many stories that just haven't been, haven't been covered as I'm, as you've certainly found and we have as well.

Charlie: So yeah, it's sort of got in, we've been into niche stuff for a while, but rugby just provided a vehicle for that. But. Arguably more interested vehicle for that as well, I would say. 

Carl: Yeah. I, I love that. I, um, before I moved to Spain, I, I, [00:02:00] I used to, I followed football as well. PO Pom Pompy fan always been. Um, but I sort of, me and my mates was up.

Carl: I was like the amount, the, the amount of non-league clubs that were like local to me that I had never been to, like literally lived around the corner from one, never been to. So before I moved here, I just said to the LA, I was like, right, I want go and do like a non-league tour. Let's just go and pick random games.

Carl: Just go like, I went and watch gospel on a Tuesday night against fair and town. And like you stand that close, you were able to just shout abuse at a lino wind, just having a laugh of 'em. And then they could actually hear what was going. It was just. Those are the bits that people, you don't get in the big stadium.

Carl: And there there's so many grassroots rugby's that you can, everyone can go and have a laugh and you sort of get absorbed into the family, the atmosphere, and that it's just on just such a grand scale. And then when you get wrapped into Rugby Europe, and the top is obviously Spanish. Spanish rugby, Portuguese rugby, the amount of people that love the game [00:03:00] under the top tier.

Carl: It's, it's, it's just a gem upon gem. And we've got, we've got an open fountain of. Enthusiasm to be able to, to tap into. So it's an exciting time ahead. And obviously you guys have got, you've had some banging guests on, obviously you had, uh, David Ni Ash Phil. Yeah. Did, is that, where did you borrow, did you borrow, borrow the Tash from him or was that, did you see his Tash than decided?

Charlie: I think it is a bit better of a mind, to be fair, but, you know, I'll take, I'll take that. 

Carl: Amazing. So obviously you, you managed to chat with Davit. You, you had, um, was it Fabian Holland on the other day? You obviously went to the All Blacks was originally from Netherlands. You are also part of Ruck as well, aren't you?

Carl: So Ruck is obviously a a, a rugby paper, but some people love it or hate it. They, they obviously people think it's more of a clickbait vessel rather than, uh, quality journalism comment. Obviously no judgment on you Charlie comment. So, but obviously. Did that, has that helped you being able [00:04:00] to bridge the gap with some of those, or have you literally had to do like, like ourselves just.

Carl: Dig in the trenches, message as many people and just see if somebody responds or how's, how's that sort of helped? Yes, 

Charlie: I'd say it's a bit of both to be fair. 'cause you do, you, you can use the, the ruck sort of as a, as a vehicle to give it a bit more weight. 'cause I mean, like you say, obviously I'm not gonna talk about people's opinions on rocking.

Charlie: I think it's slightly fair enough. Slightly harsh what you said. I can see, I can see your opinion. Um, but I would say 

Carl: I don't have, I, I don't have anything that brings exposure to rugby. I don't, I just don't see it because I don't really, uh, it's not, it's more top. That's more the tier one stuff. They don't really focus on the other bits.

Carl: But some people, I see some of the comments and some people get so angry by it. It's so funny. 

Charlie: Yeah. 

Carl: But you gotta bring, you gotta bring people to rugby for people to. C rugby. So if that works and they click bait it [00:05:00] crack on. Yeah. But obviously as long as they don't come in our lane, we're happy. 

Charlie: Yeah. No, and I think that's, I think that's what it's all about really.

Charlie: It's about getting eyes on, eyes on rugby and eyes on the sport. And like you say, some people would call it click bait and that's probably probably fair enough in the grand scheme of things. For, for a sport like rugby, you do need people to take an interest in it. You do need people to see it. But yeah, so I mean, that's my, that's my day job and obviously I'm, I'm a new journalist as I mentioned early on, so I'm a bit, I guess naive.

Charlie: So I always try and avoid that sort of clickbait stuff and try and stick to it, it sounds cliche, but try and stick to, you know, quality journalism. So I guess that's hopefully helped, helped ForSight sort of move away from that. Uh, clickbait, clickbait tag. I'd like, I'd like to think it has, whether it has or not is a, is a different, is a different story.

Charlie: But yeah, so a few, a few stories end up on there. 'cause I mean, they're interviews at the end of the day, so I can use [00:06:00] quotes from speaking to various people and put, put articles on Ruck. So hopefully that gives tier two a bit more exposure as well. And that's what I'm trying to do as well through the podcast, but also through Rook, because R'S got a much bigger audience than.

Charlie: Than, than our, our podcasts really. So trying to avoid the click bait as much as possible, but well aware that it is potentially part of, you know, the organization that I work for. 

Carl: So obviously we, we, we've both interviewed, uh, Finn Finley Harrison, what, what are Top Blokey is as well for, for where he come from to where he is now.

Carl: And he's also trying to pave the way for future players and coaches that are. At 21 and being a DOR of an international side is, is a testament to, to him and himself and obviously both, both of our chats are with him with two separate sort of paths as well, and you get two sides of it and just such an articulate young man for, [00:07:00] for his passion for rugby and the development as well.

Carl: When you'd spoke to him, did you sort of sit back and think? Wow. Like this. He, he is, he is as impressive as it sounds. 

Charlie: Yeah. No, a hundred percent. I mean 21 years old in a DOR for an international rugby team, that is absolutely insane. And I believe it's the only person we've ever had on the podcast that is younger than both me and Josh.

Charlie: 'cause we're both, he's just turned 23. I'm 22. So. Like he's just slightly younger, slightly younger than both of us. But yeah, really had to sit back and think, how on earth do you do? You do that at such a young age and Yeah, unbelievably impressive. And I echo exactly what you said about him being a top bloke in all of that.

Charlie: 'cause Yeah, it was, it was definitely one of my favorite chats that I've had. 

Carl: Oh yeah. I'll come away. And I was like, yeah, this is, this is a banger. And obviously for people that haven't watched it go and just go and just. Sit and just listen to his, his enthusiasm just poured out. Yeah, I was like, I was, I've always taken aback by it.

Carl: I've, I've, [00:08:00] I've managed to interview quite a few and you think, yeah, this, this, this lad's going somewhere, but, uh, yeah. Well, I'm 36 in about three weeks time, mate, so Yeah. I, most, most of 'em are either younger than me or sort of of my same age, so Yeah. Not, not quite on the same, same level as you guys.

Carl: Right. Should we get into it? Tier two, tier three rugby, where, what do you see it. Two years, five years, 10 years time? 

Charlie: Good question. I would say in two years I don't think loads and loads will change. I think you're starting to see in Europe especially the levels getting better and better with the likes of, you know, I'm thinking in the trophy, 'cause that's this weekend, the sort of final day.

Charlie: You've got checker who have had Bohemian warriors and started professionalizing. You've got Poland with the semi-pro league, but then they've also got. Quite a large number of players outside of Poland of Polish heritage that they can call upon if need be. So I would say, I mean [00:09:00] obviously Sweden as well, with Arle Loman who's now, um, playing in the prem for Tigers.

Charlie: So you, you're seeing bits and bobs of players and organizations and stuff getting better and better. Um, so I'd say in two years you might see a, a few more players sort of moving into the, the top levels of European rugby from nations like that globally. It's hard to say really in terms of two years. Um, probably a 

Carl: similar, you think the, the nations, the nations Cup or whatever they've called, it's gonna make much of a difference, or do you think it's just.

Carl: More of a climate change situation. It's gonna, yeah. I, it's that piss more people off than 

Charlie: Yeah. I don't, I don't think it'll make a massive, massive difference. It'll be, it is good to see that, thereby, thereby games played between tier two nations, but obviously they're all the top, top level, tier two nations who usually don't struggle.

Charlie: Massively, I would say, in terms of [00:10:00] getting, getting matches and getting decent opposition. You see like Chile played Italy in the summer stuff, uh in the autumn, stuff like that. Yeah. So I don't see it massively helping. It'll be a decent experience, I think, ahead of the World Cup for them, 'cause that's really the purpose.

Charlie: But it probably would've been better and more advantageous if they had some tests against. Like tier one, tier one nations like, like Spain had against England A I think stuff like that is massively beneficial 'cause they gave them a good game and I'd imagine they took a lot of a lot from playing them 'cause it was a team full of prem prem starters.

Charlie: So I would say stuff like that's probably more beneficial to be honest. 

Carl: I tend to agree. I think the short term, we've gotta probably look at those Scotland fifteens, island Day, all of these sort of Italy, 15. That's the next bridge. Not just having to get teams to travel across the world like Spain, having go to Canada and America.

Carl: They did it last [00:11:00] season. They've already done that. It's not like it's a, something new. It's not like, and in Zimbabwe, having to use the UK as a home base. 'cause they don't, that's, they don't, people don't wanna travel to Zimbabwe. You think, hold on, this is, that's part of it. On a away day in Zimbabwe would be different gravy, I think, in my opinion, a 

Charlie: hundred percent.

Carl: It's just so diluted. I think long term, if it grows and gathers pace, I think it could be beneficial, but I think that's where you'd have to potentially include those. Italy fifteens, so South Africa, 15 or whatever, and like the, the B teams to try and increase the competition and close that gap to tier one.

Carl: 'cause as you see, Fiji are probably a, a tier 1.5, I'd say conservatively. Yeah. They're not quite a tier one, but they're too good for tier two. But 

Charlie: yeah, 

Carl: Spain had run 'em close twice now, so like they're getting the exposure. But until, and I spoke this with um. Nicola Mat [00:12:00] yesterday when I interviewed him, that one day when a tier one nation goes to Fiji and plays in Fiji, they, I, I think that's the day they become a tier one nation.

Carl: I think that's the day we know they've made it. 

Charlie: Mm-hmm. 

Carl: But I, yeah, I, I, I agree with you on the tier, the, the sort of the two year plan. I think it's, it's very conservative and a little bit too. Corporate rather than actually development model, in my opinion. Five years. Then where? Where do you see it in five?

Carl: Do you think it changing much? 

Charlie: Well, five years, that'll be sort of around the time. There's the, the 2031 World Cup won maybe. So I, I dunno about changing loads before then, but potentially 2031 and 2035, that could be. I feel like where there's the real catalyst for change, whether it's for good or bad. I'm sure you'd happily talk about Spain and the 2035 World [00:13:00] Cup potentially, and the benefits that it could have, but I think it's a real opportunity for world rugby to, to make rugby a global game, like you say, Spain World Cup.

Charlie: They're knocking on the door already. Imagine how, how much they'd be knocking on the door with the, with the sort of carrot of the home World Cup. So I think five, five years, obviously building up to the USA World Cup, the USA rugby is such a weird one, isn't it? So you can't really say either way, whether that World Cup's actually gonna benefit them or not.

Charlie: I'd err more towards it, not. Having a huge benefit in rugby, potentially not being able to crack America. I mean, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that as well. To be honest, 

Carl: if you asked me two, three months ago, I'd have said, rugby in America's dead with the teams dropping like flies down to six.

Carl: Six teams. No clear development path. No, there was nothing there. But what's been [00:14:00] done behind the scenes in the MLR in the last. Two, three months has probably changed. It's, it's not an instant result, but I think by the time we get to the World Cup, I think there will be a stronger America, there will be a stronger setup.

Carl: There will be a stronger MLR. I don't think it will ch, I, I think there'll be a maximum of eight teams in that model. I think what they're looking at doing, like listening to Will Ley and the um. The VP that comes on there on his podcast quite a bit, I think they're looking at doing like a nation's cup alongside model within the regions and stuff like that.

Carl: So they're gonna try and not just have the MLR season, but also a, a sort of a challenge cup model as well, which would be really cool. But they're obviously delving back into the Americas Cup as well, so the, you sort of South America teams are gonna be involved and. I, I wouldn't be very, I wouldn't be surprised if there's, in the [00:15:00] coming years, once MLR stabilizes and obviously the Super Rugby Americas carries on growing the way it is.

Carl: It would not surprise me if there's a return of like an America's Champions League Super Cup model that supplements the lack of MLR teams. I, I think, I think the tide is turned. I think there's enough. Of, of a sticky plaster put over it at the minute to get through this season, uh, after the shit show of a summer that they had.

Carl: I think we're starting to see where America could make it great again. 

Charlie: Yeah, no, 

Carl: I I, I dunno if, I dunno if you agree, but I, I think there is enough there now to, to restabilize what was just the wild west of a shit show to be fair. 

Charlie: I mean, to be honest, I think their best chance is, like you've mentioned, to sort of.

Charlie: Team up, if you will, with the South America, because Super Rugby Americas is an unbelievable competition. Like [00:16:00] that's probably the fastest growing competition in the world. Domestic, or, well not domestic 'cause it's across nations, but you know what I mean? Like Yeah. The fastest growing league in the world because honestly, some of the, I think they broke the attendance record either last week or the week before.

Charlie: I'm pretty sure. Um, yeah. You know, teams are doing well. Generate an interest and, and it is well, well built in the sense that plenty of nations are involved. You've got Paraguay of a team, Brazil, rg, you know, all of them. All of them have their own teams. So to me, to me, the MLR and American Rugby does need to.

Charlie: Almost, I guess piggyback off of that, if you will, to, to try and to try and generate some interest and Yeah, like, like you say, I think collaboration between those two would would be the best course of action and there's definitely potential in America, but. It is time for that potential to be realized.

Charlie: 'cause I think the clock's ticking and there needs to be a point where world rugby says, listen, it [00:17:00] ain't working in America. And I think that point will have to be after the 2031 World Cup, depending on how it goes and, and all of that. Maybe give it a couple of years after that and then. See, see where we're at.

Carl: I think the 250 million that they've sunk into it will, will not allow them to, to do that anytime before. That's for sure. It's not, they're not gonna turn the tide, so that sticky plaster's gonna be firmly placed on it to make it look like a success. Obviously I love Super Rugby America's. We had Joe Santa Maria on as well, who's there in the midst of it.

Carl: We just wax lyrical about it. Obviously they've just added the cap baras, so there's a fourth um, Argentinian side. They reckon that chili are gonna add a second one to sub subsidize nu The chili team, obviously, as you said, they come across and played Italy and done extremely well. And I think the, the biggest gap that's gonna probably be bridged between the success of Super [00:18:00] Rugby Americas is when you're able to, we're able to view it outside of.

Carl: South America. 

Charlie: Yeah, hundred 

Carl: percent. It's the, it's the rights. It's the rights issue that's, that's not being resolved. And I think once we bridge that gap, the market's gonna get bigger and bigger. Obviously the MLR is easy to get hold of, it's just on a really shit time for anyone in Europe. But I think the biggest loss for MLR this season was the Miami Sharks.

Carl: The Miami Sharks was that perfect middle ground between America and South America. 'cause it was a predominantly South American team that was a, it was the perfect mix. So I, I had heard a lot of rumblings that they were gonna sort of look at joining Super Rugby Americas. There was conversations, 'cause there's previously been American side, I, I think a year or two's time, there'll be another bigger push again for how they try to resolve and save, um.

Carl: The [00:19:00] region, because obviously you still gotta look at, including Canada. Obviously Canada have got to sort of be involved. I think the perfect mix has started, but it'll be, it'd be exciting to see. And then you've got obviously the Africa Nations Cup system that plays every year. Zimbabwe, getting out of that and sort of getting themself into the World Cup, does that bring the other nations along?

Carl: The whole mix is exciting to see. The World Cup 2035 in Spain. Obviously I'd love to see it. I just, I think it's time. It should go to South America, but I think because America got the 2031 World Cup, it's probably gonna come towards Europe. I don't think we did. I don't think we need to go back to Japan.

Carl: Like Japan would be the easy option because it's already been there. It's not like it's a, it's not like an. A way of progressing the game. I think 2035 in Spain, [00:20:00] whether it's a joint bid with Portugal, I think that sort, that, that would, that would strengthen the bid, in my opinion. I don't think that Spain would probably want to look at it.

Carl: Or you could also include sort of the, the BAS region and like up into sort of s and you could do stadiums. Imagine. Imagine a World Cup game. A Spanish World Cup game in bis, uh, or against France or something like that as well. Imagine if they get the same group and they've got that game. Imagine that. Ah, it'd be absolutely to see.

Carl: And there, there's so many plot plot lines that we could all follow and just sort of get so excited about. I've, I've actually got goosebumps on, on me arms there. 'cause I just imagine that just that atmosphere, like, what was it, Beit? Had the game against by on the, the other weekend, it was absolutely stacked.

Carl: Like people couldn't even hear themselves think, let alone just that. Ah, it'd be unreal to see and on a World Cup [00:21:00] stage and showcase exactly what the game. Has to offer, but that's also now, well, world rugby, we've gotta look at supporting the Rugby Europe now, not just using it as an afterthought while they've got the sticky plaster over America.

Charlie: Yeah, a hundred percent. And I don't really know too much about how, how much influence and stuff world rugby has on Rugby Europe. I'd sort of think of it as, oh, 

Carl: bloats. 

Charlie: Yeah. Loads. Yeah, I never really, I never really hear or I guess consider it, I always hear of Rugby Europe decisions, but I never consider how much, you know, world rugby plays into it.

Charlie: But yeah, I'd imagine, like you say, it's, it's, it's huge. 

Carl: So Rugby Europe Super Cup is actually fully funded by World Rugby. So World Rugby funded the Super Cup. Yeah. Yeah. So that's fully funded by World Rugby. So. There's a lot of questions around how successful that may be. I think this has probably been the best super cut we've seen.

Carl: I think it was, it was great to see nations being able to centralize contracts teams and [00:22:00] bring, like, obviously the Iberians took it full to full, full strength. It's worked wonders for Netherlands. I know the results didn't sort of showcase that probably in the Rugby Europe, but when I was speaking to Brian Eason, he was like, this is a long-term project.

Carl: This is a 2031 project. We're safe, we can keep moving. We'll grow this, we'll get, it's only gonna get bigger. I think it was 19 detent during the, during the, the Rugby Europe championships, which for a side that was aging in, in, in Netherlands was, was exceptional. See, you, obviously, Germany have dropped down.

Carl: They're in a rebuild mode. They're, they're not gonna just roll over. They'll be looking to come back. Uh, so yeah, it is really exciting to see. How that will grow. I think the Rugby Europe Super Cup is crucial though for world rugby to support. I don't think it needs potentially the Iberians, maybe not the Anos as well.

Carl: Maybe that needs another pocket. 'cause obviously the black lines pulled away because they wanted to go and try and get [00:23:00] better rugby elsewhere. They were saying turned away by the URC. They looked at the MLR. They also looked at South America. They also looked at putting a team in Australia. There was all these other leagues that they were trying to look at.

Carl: There's a lot going on in Georgia as well as we know with the, with the doping scandal and funding and the whole tide is changing. So before Georgia slide away, rugby Europe need to find a way of being able to maybe pull the two separately. Maybe a super cut model that is like you've got a top tier and then you've got the Bohemian rugby warriors, and then go to like the likes of Hungary, go to all these other nations that have got players that.

Carl: Let's try and centralize contractor, subsidize it in some format, but let them put a close to a top tier model in place for professionalism and let them play alongside the trophy. It's only gonna support like Sweden, Denmark, Poland, all these other nations will need that development model. Obviously [00:24:00] I've been speaking with the Greek rugby, as you know, gi imagine if they were able to put.

Carl: A team together that they're also allowed to run alongside Rugby Europe. The trophy or the conference and stuff. Yeah. That was able to get those players together more often and put 'em on a pedestal. Not a pedestal, but in the limelight and showcase. This is what we can do when we actually put these, these professionals together.

Carl: A 

Charlie: hundred percent. But I guess the main issue with that is the main issue with a lot of things and money. Yeah, exactly. So it is, it is such a tough one. Um, and as well, one of the main things about rugby Europe is the fact that there's rumors that are pretty substantiated that they might be going. From the championship, from eight to six teams, which would obviously have two extra, two extra people relegated and potentially a restructuring in terms of, I dunno, maybe, maybe the trophy would then go into like dip.

Charlie: Split into two. And, but yeah, but effectively that could, that could also happen, [00:25:00] which could mean that could, could even it out in terms of like having, you know, the championship is just the best of the best. You know, it'd be like Georgia, Spain, Portugal. Um, so it, it'd be quality and, and a couple of others obviously.

Charlie: Um, and the trophy might be a bit better balanced, but that could have an impact as well Internationally, 

Carl: there there was a lot, there's a lot of rumors that it sort, that people had jumped the gun. It was discussed at the, at the a GM the other day, like I spoke to a few people within Rugby Europe. It was discussed, and I think a lot of it was also dependent on how the Nation's Cup or whatever they call it now, is it was sort of planned alongside.

Carl: They would, they, they, 'cause they obviously there's all this World League model that they're trying to come together to reduce playing time and try to improve player quality, et cetera, et cetera. So the the one one calendar that they're trying to work towards, there's still this big gap though obviously with [00:26:00] the Auman International Summer Internationals, six nations in the middle, those nations in between.

Carl: They're never gonna get into the six nations. They're not allowed. Simple as that, as safe. A spring fence. You can't have tier two nations trying to improve and only playing in November and in July. There's gotta be something in the middle. I, I think this was, again, I'll speak to a lot of people. There's also a big argument that this, some people saw this as the worst wreck.

Carl: I disagree. I thought this was probably one of the better ones where anyone could beat anyone. I know there was a bit of a rebuild mode going on with a lot, but I think this showcased exactly what the, the, the championship should be. I just don't agree with how the, the model's been set. It last, last year was, was absolutely rigged.

Carl: There was no, there was no heirs or grace around it that they wanted those four teams into [00:27:00] the, into the World Cup. The fixtures were fixed. Job done. That was them. The rest of it was kind of diluted. It was all, it was really saturated. We should start with a draw. We should start with, I think there should be one league, not two separate leagues that then come back together.

Carl: I think we should try and do it as an A team or a 10 team and then. There's a progression. There's a clear progression. You can't look how many to what? There's that six leagues in the conference. You've got six leagues in the conference, you think? Yeah. So you, you've then got the trophy, but the trophy doesn't, like you can get promoted and relegated from the trophy each year, but you can't get promoted.

Carl: So you can get relegated though from the trophy, but then the championship's under a two year model. But then that's also based on points. Do it as a, do it as a, do it as a league. And then we can break off, or you get more games. So you don't need to do a final, you do the [00:28:00] finals day every two years. The first year, the league then carries across to the second year.

Carl: So everyone knows who's gonna get promoted, who's gonna get relegated, right? That's, that's how you get people interested. That's how you keep people retained, right? The first year, that's these fixtures, right? They're gonna play these games. Home away, home away, home away. Next year, you know, right in advance.

Carl: We're gonna be playing. In Netherlands, in Amsterdam, on this date. Right? Perfect. Same as what the Six Nations does. People can start playing in a year ahead and say, right, I'm gonna book those tickets. I'm gonna book that and I'm gonna make sure I'm gonna, that's how we turn tier two and tier three rugby.

Carl: Into the same level as tier one. That's how you get people traveling to different places, watching different games, watching different cultures, watching diff. All of these bits that we love about the game and the world, you get to see on a cheaper budget because you get to see what a standard of rugby as well.

Carl: [00:29:00] It's not like it's cheaper 'cause it's, it's just because it's not that commercial yet. Yeah, but that's, that, that's more red. 

Charlie: No, I, I agree with you. If you give people notice, then they're much more likely to come than if you, if there's a game, you know, two weeks in advance. No one's, no one's gonna go outside of that.

Charlie: Even fans of the people from the nation are gonna struggle to go, let alone neutrals from, from tier one nations. No, I'm, I'm completely with you and. Another thing that's a sort of, it's, it is a different, but it's a similar example is the recent game between Cche here and Mexico. 'cause that was, that was really sort of built up, you know, big celebration of Czech rugby.

Charlie: There was plenty of notice. Um, and it was a game between two nations who wouldn't normally play each other from completely different parts of the world. And I think stuff like that as well. Obviously money plays into it. Of course it does. Yeah. But stuff like that as well is massive in terms of growing the game.

Charlie: 'cause I think that. Czech Mexico game will have done absolute [00:30:00] wonders for Czech rugby in particular, but also I'd imagine would've generated some interest in Mexico because it'd have been like, wow, we're playing, you know, we're playing a team we hardly ever play. 

Carl: Yeah. Ex exactly that. And I think there's, there's a lot more of those.

Carl: Like you got Columbia. You've got all of these other South American nations that can also come and Gibraltar are doing exceptionally well at getting these, these games on. Um, they're obviously, they've already managed to to, to get Sweden in a couple of weeks ago, which, which is a massive game as well.

Carl: Sweden obviously managed to use it as a, as a bit of a model as well to bring debits in and stuff like that. But that. That's the ambition that Jabal have already shown. Bris obviously trying to coordinate stuff. They managed to get a double header at home. It was very short notice that they were able to announce it 'cause they had to deal with all the regulations and try to get all through all the paperwork and stuff.

Carl: But they managed to get their first international double header in Athens in 12, 13 years or however long [00:31:00] Stupidly it was. The women's obviously played a conference game and then obviously Kosovo turned up to play the men's. It's another case of. These countries want to play rugby, but we'd need to try and get that global calendar or a calendar ahead for people to be able to go and enjoy it.

Carl: Like last season we had. I, I was, I covered a lot of the wreck. There was a, we, there was a Welsh geezer called, uh, David. He, he come along, he turned up to the, uh, the Spain, Georgia game. 'cause there was obviously a gap week in the, in the, in the Six nations. And then he turned up to the Spain, Portugal game and I bumped into him both times and I spent good time with him as well.

Carl: It was good laugh. And that was when Wales were terribly, shit like horrendous. And he goes, I, I said, why have you come here? He goes, well, can't go and sit and watch that. But he like, he, he made a purpose. He come to the first game. Madrid to watch Spain, Spain, Georgia. And he literally left, went to the pub and booked for the Spain, [00:32:00] Portugal game.

Carl: 'cause he, he literally fell in love with how good it was. And that's the thing. You get, you get that bug. You, you, you ain't going from it. 

Charlie: Yeah, a hundred percent. It just shows that it's clearly a good quality, is clearly a good product. And the main issue is getting people to, getting people to see that product and getting people to view it and consume it in, in whatever way possible really.

Carl: Yeah. Do, do you think there's, do you think the sort of the live, obviously the, the Rugby Europe do brilliant on getting as many games streamed across the whole, the whole model? There's, there's obviously, there's plenty of things that they can probably do. Slightly differently to sort of engage more fans.

Carl: Do you think some of them have gotta potentially look a little bit different and think outside the box? Do you find that some people would probably like to see a little bit more of a different way of reporting on these, on these ones just to see what sticks? Like this is probably the perfect testing ground.

Charlie: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And an example that I just thought of while you were talking about that was, [00:33:00] do you remember a few years ago when the Spain Sevens team went absolutely viral? 'cause everyone was saying how, like, how fit they were, basically? Yeah. Like that was just, that was just from a TikTok basically of, of the team being shown.

Charlie: And, you know, it, it would've got millions of views, if not hundreds of thousands. But you know, it went absolutely viral and that. That isn't the sort of content you traditionally see, like tiktoks of players, you know, BA basically just training really was all they were doing. But, but tiktoks of players, short form content, that sort of thing.

Charlie: So yeah, there's definitely, I, I dunno about missed opportunity 'cause I think it probably is out there but a missed opportunity in terms of marketing maybe because I don't, I don't tend to see much content unless I go out and look for it from any, from any tier two, tier three nation really. Um, 

Carl: yeah, 

Charlie: so it, it might, it might be there, but yeah, it's just about getting it out to people in, like you mentioned in the question in different and unique [00:34:00] ways.

Charlie: Maybe tiktoks, maybe shorter form content, maybe engage with a different audience. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking out loud, but yeah, just trying to, trying to get different, different people involved in the sport then. Than traditional rugby fans because for years the average rugby fan, let's say in England won't, won't really have had much of an interest in, let's say, Spanish rugby.

Charlie: So maybe you. Sparking down the wrong sort of tree to to try and get that English rugby fan who's never been interested in Spanish rugby, maybe. Maybe it will be more difficult to get him interested than a non rugby fan who's potentially open to the idea. So. Yeah, it is, it's an interesting, it's an interesting point, and I do, I do think there's, there's room for improvement, but unfortunately off the top of my head, I can't think of too many, too many amazing ways to, to have that improvement.

Carl: I, I, I think you've hit the nail on the head though. I think we've [00:35:00] got target people outside of the rugby bubble. Rugby fans are very. Very much stuck in their own ways to a certain extent. A lot of them will only do what they like and they, they don't, most of them don't like watching rugby. Most of them only go there 'cause they're on the beers and stuff like that.

Carl: It's, a lot of them aren't rugby NAS that want to know different, different leagues and stuff. But they're, I think being able to target the people outside of it and say, well actually it's not just rugby. You can come here for. You go to Madrid, like you could go to gans, you could go to Via Village, you can go all of these different countries and cities and Yeah.

Carl: Experiences while substituting it with a game of rugby, which is a, a whole nother experience that some people have never once usually, once you've sort of tried it, you get stuck into the bubble, don't you? It's just we've gotta get people from outside in and showcase that there is a little bit more to rugby than just people drinking piss.

Carl: Just being generally [00:36:00] stupid at times and then being boring, wearing Gilles and brown shoes. Do you know what I mean? Like there is a little bit more to rugby than what the, the, the media sort of portrays. I think. I think we've gotta look outside the box rather than trying to convert fans. The fans that will want to convert have already converted those that based outside the bubble.

Carl: We've gotta try and break new audiences and try and reach. Kids to a certain extent, but it's also the, the, the, the ones that haven't played the game. I think schools is crucial. A a lot of pe every time you speak to somebody, how do we change the way that Rugby's accessed and it's gotta be in schools, but they're trying this new TT one.

Carl: Is it, have you, have you sort of seen much of it where it's sort of a hybrid? Touch game, but no tackles. And it is like a watered down version of the game to try and make it easier in schools because you don't really need to be taught much. It's like too anti touch sort of thing. So [00:37:00] they're, they're trying.

Carl: It's just, I don't, how long do we want to carry on water in the game down before people then actually try the game and realize you, you are gonna get tackled. 

Charlie: Yeah. 

Carl: And it is gonna work. If you're not ready for it. 

Charlie: And to be honest, I think in the UK particularly, or in England, I would say the issue isn't people liking the game.

Charlie: I think a lot of people, once they start playing rugby, you either, you either love it or you hate it effectively. You know, getting tackled the physical aspect, you're not gonna change, right? You're not. Someone who doesn't like playing rugby isn't gonna play rugby. I think where you can change it. Is the perception of the sport.

Charlie: Because think about it, in the UK there's a lot of very, very hard men who are in counselor states in working class areas across the country who would never dream of playing rugby. Even though they might do boxing, they might do other physical sports. They'd obviously love the physical aspect of it.

Charlie: They'd probably play football. So there's clearly a bit of a technical element. They're obviously different, [00:38:00] different technically, but football's a technical sport so they could get. Get used to the technical aspect of rugby, but the physical base is there and they would never, ever play rugby just because of the perception of it.

Charlie: You'd get taken the piss out of by your mates because, you know, it's a, it's a posh person sport. So I really think that's for, that's for Bridge for Rugby needs to gap. The fact that the, the stereotype and the perception of the sport is just it, it. It's just not where, not where it should be and not reflective of the actual sport itself.

Charlie: It's really, really missing, missing a trick, I think. 

Carl: How do you reckon we bridge that then without removing all the blazers and all the, because we still, we, we, we still wanna try and stand by our, the sort of the values and the traditions, but we've gotta find a way of saying that is, that is what it is, but also like we are just general blokes.

Carl: They're usually too fat to play play football. Like we've, we've all probably come from a football background, [00:39:00] but we're either too, just too fat. I've literally got, I've gotta turn in circle of the art royal, to be fair. So there's, there's a reason that I can't carry on playing football, but I still love it.

Carl: But I, I, I do love rugby more because it's, it's more inclusive and I think in the current climate as well and the way that everyone wants to. Preach about inclusion and inclu inclusivity across different bits. That's what the game, I think needs to also grab onto more is that we are that sport that can include everyone.

Carl: It doesn't matter how tall you are, short, you are fat, you are thin, you are, how quick you run, whether you've got. Feet for hands, it doesn't matter. You're still welcome at a rugby club. 

Charlie: Yeah, no, a hundred, a hundred percent. And it's the million dollar question in terms of bridging that gap because like you say, you want to keep the traditional rugby values and everything.

Charlie: I would say where it's, where it's probably most. Pertinent, and where you could probably take the most from is the difference in crowds. People make a lot of rugby crowds, obviously, [00:40:00] but you'll get some of the same people. Let's say I'm, I'm from Lester, so let's say from in Leicester, you'll have a lot of people who go to both Leicester City and Leicester targets.

Charlie: But they'll, yeah, because of the environment they're in, they'll act completely different at Leicester City compared to at Leicester Tigers. They're obviously the exact same person, exact same background and everything, but they'll be completely different because of the environment they're in. So in terms of getting more and more people into the sport, I've got, I'd like to say that I don't think it would be hugely difficult because I think you are always gonna have that environment of rugby.

Charlie: And people will sort of act, act accordingly, at least, at least somewhat. Maybe they'll be a bit more boisterous or whatever than your average rugby fan or rugby player or whatever. But generally, you'd probably tone it down more compared to if you were at a football match, for example. I, I, I would say from my experience.

Carl: So what, what's your opinion on these away ends that they're trying to generate? Obviously the [00:41:00] Northampton Saints had it the other day, or they've got it coming up. Are you trying to make something outta nothing? I dunno. It's hard. You, you can't sell your soul and expect everyone to sort of flood money into the game without something, something dipping.

Carl: And hopefully it's not that because I think rugby tries to be a bit more family friendly, but you go to trick and tricking them. Sorry. And it's full of just two Ray Henry's that nobody can afford to go. You got. People that have got corporate tickets and their mate does it is it's not. But then you go for a red Roses game and it's a completely different atmosphere.

Carl: 'cause the price point's correct. It's not been priced out of the, the actual fat. And I think that's the bit that piece pisses people off. There is no middle ground between. Going, watching women's rugby or going to watch England, that's sort of the top tier men. Like there's, it's hard to find that middle ground without being priced out of the game or going to watch women's game, uh, which the women's Rugby's brilliant.

Carl: It's just [00:42:00] people either wanna go and see the Six Nations, or they want to go and see. The women's it's, it is kind of no middle ground because of the price point's been nailed. 

Charlie: I tell you what as well, just going back to the point about sort of trying new things and developing different audiences and stuff, I would say the Red Roses have got it spot on 'cause they've tapped into a non-traditional rugby audience, really galvanized them.

Charlie: Obviously the success has helped but really galvanized a non rugby audience. Got them interested in, in the sport, but also got them interested in the personalities in, yeah, in the Red Roses themselves. So I think they're an example that tier two could potentially take stuff from, obviously not exactly copy or exactly do what they're doing, but.

Charlie: But there's definitely something you can take from that because they've really tapped into a non-traditional rugby audience very, very well. 

Carl: I think they've obviously nailed the family orientated side of it as well. 'cause it makes, it's more accessible, the cost isn't as bad. Like you get the see top tier [00:43:00] rugby and as you say, people can relate like the, the, the rugby media, sort of the, the whole media training I think sort of stops.

Carl: A lot of access to it. And I think that's what, while we able to enjoy such great times with the tier two, tier three, 'cause people want the exposure, they're not worried about the media training. They, they, they've obviously got an element of it, but they're also, their focus is to try and grow the game and make their vision longer.

Carl: So, yeah, I think I, I, I completely agree. I think the Red Roses have done an amazing job. I just hope they don't turn them into a cash cow and make it unaccessible for the fan base that's made them become what they are. 

Charlie: Yeah. And you'd like to, you'd like to think that wouldn't happen and I can't see that happening in the near future.

Charlie: Certainly. But yeah, you never, you never know with those kinds of things. But yeah, I think, I think they've got it spot on as I've said. 

Carl: What else have we gotta [00:44:00] cover, Charlie? I think we've pretty much nailed most of tier two, tier three rugby mate. It's been. It's been a great chat. What's your, what's the best guest you've had on, I know you're probably gonna piss some of your, piss your other guests off, but who was, who was the one that you, apart from Finn, obviously when, when you come away, what was you thought?

Carl: Yeah, I've, I've had a bang at it. 

Charlie: Do you know? Do you know what I'll, I'll say, I'll say two and they're both actually from the same nation, so, so it would be unfair to say one and not the other, but I would say it's probably Alex Labour and Carl Samaki who are both sw, well, Carl's left Sweden now to go to Australia.

Charlie: Yeah, but they were both coaches in Sweden. They're absolutely from, from day one. They were in touch with us. Helping us out with stuff, chatting to us, and they're absolutely great. But I mean, Alex, today, for example, I completely forgot the trophy final was on, uh, on Saturday or like the last, the last day of it.

Charlie: So, and I'm, I'm away tomorrow with work and Friday [00:45:00] I've got the day off. So I messaged Alex this morning and was like, listen, mate, can you give me a couple of lines about, about the trophy and the final day? And literally within about 20 minutes he was calling me and, you know, giving me loads of time a day.

Charlie: So he, yeah, he's a top bloke. 

Carl: Awesome. 

Charlie: Carl's an absolute top bloke. He, he'd do the same as well. I'm sure if he was still at Sweden, I'd have messaged him as well. But yeah, those two, those two specifically, I, I still chat to him like. Very, very regularly. So, yeah, no, those two I would say are my favorite guests.

Charlie: What, what about yourself? Because, you know, you've had some interesting guests. 

Carl: Wow. Um, oh yeah, I've had some. We've been, we've been really, really lucky. The, probably, probably the one that always sticks out for the, a similar sort of situation as you said to yourself was the, the late great Warren Abrahams.

Carl: I had the pleasure of having him on. Obviously, sadly, we, we lost him earlier in the earlier sort of. A few months ago. Um, but he was one of the, one of the first guests and [00:46:00] just the time and everything, I, he'd still messaged me sort of every month just reach out, check out. I was doing, like he, I had him, he was gonna come over and do some coaching stuff over here in Spain with me.

Carl: And yeah, like when I sit there and I, I, I look back that I've some, every, pretty much every guest has been phenomenal. Some have been harder than others. Like some of them, you, you come off and I think. Wow. Jesus Christ. Like that, that was hard work. But we, we've obviously got, Lucho does a lot of the stuff down in Argentina, obviously re recently had escrow on and obviously Santa Rees.

Carl: He's, he, he's just interviewed with Nacho Brex that comes out later today. And like we, we've, we've been blessed with some, exceptionally good with, it's even chatting with players on the side of the pitch as well. So some of them have been exceptional, like Bimba. La Laura de Delgado, she's been exceptionally brilliant.

Carl: I, I chatted with her briefly after the Brazil Friendly before the World Cup. And then like [00:47:00] we've kept in touch re uh, regularly. OO obviously bumped into Claudia Pena the other day. She, she was, she gave us the time of day during and after the same game, and she's been brilliant. It's, sometimes it's not, it's not the full length interview like.

Carl: It's, it's the bits after I was, I was speaking to James Kent. He was obviously part of the Spain Women's as well, saw him Saturday. It's, it's getting to. Interview these people and then going to see 'em at games and ka Yeah, it's like spending time with them. It's, it, it's, it's great to see the networking, like the people that put you in touch, but the, the one that always sort of, obviously with the situation as well, Warren Abraham's was, was a, it was an absolute honor to, to interview him and yeah, he was a, he was a great one.

Carl: But with ev nearly every single guest has been, been brilliant and got some great ones lined up coming up in the future as well. What's, um. What's your ultimate guest? What's the one that when you, you interview them, you, you, you think, tick, I'm done. 

Charlie: Oh, [00:48:00] that is a, that is a great question. 'cause I, I would say in terms, well, I mean in terms of, oh, tier, tier two, who's the.

Charlie: It's gotta be, it is gotta be some sort of, one of the, one of the great Fijians, maybe like Revy or some, some like just an absolute great Fijian, because obviously we're specifically tier two, tier three, I know Fiji or, or maybe a Geor, maybe like Go Godsey or some like a Georgian. Um, like, yeah, I dunno, but, we'll, we'll see.

Charlie: I'm, I'm sure the best stories, like you've mentioned will be the, the stories from absolutely random people who no one's ever heard of, but they're absolute top, top people. But yeah, I would say probably a, a really big name for Gian or a really big name Georgian would probably be at the top of the list.

Carl: There. There there's some, there's some bangers out there. Like we've, as I said, I interviewed Mattu yesterday. We got. Matti Cotti [00:49:00] lined up as well. What, what an absolute monster that bloke is as well from where he grew. Josh nti, uh, mate, some of the, some of the experiences that I've been through as well with this channel in the last two years is crazy.

Carl: Yeah. I play, I played for the Flaming Unicorns in the charity game at the Heart of Wales. Sevens against Shane Williams. Like I've played against Shane Williams and Shane Williams has tackled me as I've sort of run over him and I was. Again, he, another, another bloke that's on my WhatsApp, I text him the other day, happy Birthday and we're chatting and stuff.

Carl: It's some of these, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, who, how the fuck have I got Shane Williams's me, like number in me, in me phone and like he actually replies and Andy p but oh mate, I can't wait for us to probably catch up in a, a year or two's time when we figure out whether what we've actually discussed is, is true and the, the state of tier two rugby is actually over watched what we've done, mate.

Carl: Yeah, Charlie, for those, for those again that have made it all the way [00:50:00] through this amazing chat with yourself mate, where can they find your channel podcast? Who have you got lined up? If you can tell us, and obviously what you do obviously with Rock and what you what, where they can find the rest of your amazing work mate.

Charlie: Yeah, no. So, um, basically on Twitter at all, the Ruckers pods get us on, get us on there. Like I said earlier, we don't post massively regularly, but it's always good to keep updated on the channel. Um, Spotify and Apple Podcasts. What's all the Ruckers? Just search valve and I'm sure it'll come up. We've got already recorded.

Charlie: This was from a few weeks ago to be fair, but it's not come out. We've got Jamie Comore, Canadian, Canadian legend, top 14 winner. He was an absolute top bloke 'cause he had a bit of a. Controversial exit from Canada. I dunno if you remember that, but yeah, he spoke, he spoke pretty openly about that. So that was a.

Charlie: An interesting chat with him. Um, a couple of other Rugby Europe Guest squad, I think was Sian head coach. I've, I've recorded with him, [00:51:00] uh, Peter cgi, and then a few, a few others here and there. But yeah, we've had the likes of Ni Ash Village, Fabian Holland. Uh, so, you know, we, we try and get a good mix of, I would say top, top level tier two players slash all blacks, I guess.

Charlie: Um, and, you know, lower level we've had all the way down to. I dunno, like let's say Kosovo or Lazu, two people from there before. So yeah, pretty much love it. Every level is is covered like, like you do as well. So, yeah, no, thank you very much for the chat. I really appreciate it and hopefully in a year or two we're proven right with what we've been said and not been made out to be total idiots, but I'm sure it'll probably be the latter.

Carl: I'm, I'm sure if, uh, if, if we have been proven. Proven idiots, like ruck could use it as clickbait. Anyway, so on that note, for everyone that's joined us, I really appreciate your time. Make sure you go and check out Charlie and what all the Ruckus is all about. Another amazing vessel to try and [00:52:00] understand tier two, tier three.

Carl: It's not just about us. We want to promote every one that is trying to lead the charge and bring the game into the the eyes that we want everyone to see. Obviously, make sure you follow, like, subscribe all the bits that we do. We've got plenty going on, and if not, go and check them out as well. They've got just as much, if not better than what we do.

Carl: So thank you for joining us. We'll catch you on the next one.