A Century Of TMSA: Relationships, Regulation, And Reinvention with Denny Grim

In this special episode of On the Move, we sit down with Denny Grim, a TMSA member for more than 50 years, to reflect on the history, evolution, and future of transportation sales and marketing through the eyes of someone who has lived it, shaped it, and stayed committed to this community for half a century.

Check out the Transportation Sales and Marketing Association (TMSA) website or engage with us on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Welcome And Denny’s Introduction

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Hello, everyone, and welcome to On the Move, a show where we share transportation sales and marketing success stories. I am Jennifer Carpis Romain, Executive Director of the Transportation Marketing and Sales Association, which is a trade nonprofit in the space educating and connecting marketing and sales professionals. And today on the show, it's a very special episode for me because we have the Denny Grimm on the show. He's the executive producer at Business to Business Communications, but a lifer in the transportation industry. I was actually thinking I've known you for about seven to eight years now, but that doesn't even hit the iceberg of time that you observed at TMSA in the industry. So welcome to the show, Denny. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I'm good. Thank you so much. Um, just for having interest in uh a little bit of history about the organization, uh certainly my background, but um, and so it's appreciated that you would uh look to some of the history of a really wonderful organization.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Absolutely, and that is kind of where I want to start. So for people that don't know, um TMSA is a 100-year-old organization, and you have actually served TMSA before it was TMSA, when it was TMCA, and when it had a whole bunch of other names over the course of time. But you've been serving TMSA as a member for more than five decades now, which is just a testament to yourself and your selflessness to serve the industry and the organization. So let's

Origins In Rail And Early TMSA

SPEAKER_03 2:00

start at the beginning, I guess. How did you get involved in the industry and what has kept you here for 50 years?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

It started in 1974. You can look it up on the um internet. It it was a uh it was an exciting time for me. I joined Modern Railroads magazine when there was a print journal called Modern Railroads Magazine. It was part of Connor's Publishing Company, which at the time was one of the really big uh publishing, business publishing organizations uh stateside. Um and uh so Modern Railroads was my beginning. It was about learning a transportation industry, it was also about uh learning the uh depths of marketing, particularly back then. Uh the organization I joined was called ARAM, A-R-A-M, the Association of Railroad Advertising Managers. Um, we evolved over time to become the Association of Railroad Advertising and Marketing. We elevated ourselves uh over time. Um, but it has given me a lifetime of work. Um years and years ago, when my lifetime achievement award was presented, uh, it suggested that if you have a lifetime of achievement, you're supposed to work there for a lifetime. And so I've tried to do that. Um, it's been a glorious experience for me. Um, but Jen, I would tell you in all uh honesty, it really has been an opportunity to grow in relationships with business professionals, and the ones that seemed to be so very valuable were those where a relationship was actually built, where you would spend time with individuals. Um I tell the story. Ken Key is a past president of ARAM, and uh he was uh VP of sales or VP of corporate communications at the Canadian Pacific Railway. Well, Ken and Norma, and Laura and I, we've had a relationship that never stopped. Um Laura and and Norma are on the phone every month um talking to each other. And that this was back in the I I think it was the 90s when Ken was president. Um but uh uh certainly many of the people in our business were customers, and uh so on the one hand, you do business with customers, and that's good, and but these things turned into really human bonding, and we really and genuinely care about folks, and you follow them um literally through a lifetime, I have anyway, and um I've been blessed to continue to live, and so um uh I keep up with as many of those old relationships as is possible. Um, in terms of um your initial question, this is a relationship business. Um people talk to people, companies don't talk to companies. So the individual growth, personal and professional growth, is such a value, and uh that's certainly kept us very connected to the organization and its evolution.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

I would agree. I mean, I think even my time at TMSA, so I was a member, I think it was either end of 2017, 2018 is when I came in as a member. And then I took this role in 2021. And if you ask me, the people that I talk to on a regular and daily basis, like half of them I met through the association because they do like and you've gone through all this stuff, like we went through COVID together and being on calls, and like we watch you watch each other's kids grow up over the internet, and like like I always laugh, like Monroe, my son, he calls Holly Loboda Miss Holly, who lives in the computer because he that's when he sees her

Relationships As The Real Advantage

SPEAKER_03 6:45

is on the computer. So I'm like, she doesn't, she has a home, but like that's you know, and so it's just funny. You you make these connections and these bonds, and you really do travel through that. And I think it's such an impact and a legacy. I know from my experience, and so I can only imagine what it would be like through all that time. Um, you've watched this industry evolve in ways that most people will then never experience because you've seen all of the ebbs and all of the flows. Like so many of us are like, will this market ever stop? And you're probably like, eventually, yes, it will, and then it'll happen again. But um, in terms of sales and marketing, I'm curious over that evolution for you, what are some of the biggest changes you've seen and been surprised by in transportation?

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Well, the the big thing is um I came into this industry when it was a regulated industry, and so um it was not what we see today. I say that. It's always been about getting a product from point A to point B. Um, but what we've learned over time is the supply chain uh is much more than when I started, railroads and railroading, and it was uh, and it is more than trucks and trains and boats and planes. The technology that's come in and all of those kinds of things are very real and they are great for um moving the marketplace, the the industry forward. Um but uh few within our network uh of our audience today um understand what it was like back in the day. Um if you if you will, um over the previous hundred plus years we were regulated, and regulation that um pricing was regulated, operations controlled, and labor was negotiated, and you didn't go outside of those boundaries. Uh the uh Interstate Commerce Commission kept you in check, and so uh the cost of moving a product, any given product, uh, was different um than it is today. Today the rates are negotiated, etc., etc. But back then, uh, if you were moving chickens, um there was a rate. If you were moving dead chickens, there was a different rate. And so um uh knowing how to move and work within the regulated industry was what people knew back then. Marketing was marketing was strange. Um uh um in the railroad, think about that, in the railroad industry pre-deregulation, um railroad marketers were they're gonna they're gonna contest my my thought here, but uh by and large, they were designers of posters, great posters. So when you went through a railroad station, you saw a poster um that was encouraging you to ride the rails to the west. I mean, passenger transportation advertising was about selling tickets and um and and very, very different than um than what it is today. Uh passengers never paid for themselves to use the railroad. Um freight was what it was that made the railroad successful back then. And if you think about it, I joined in 74, but uh in 24 when all this started, um trucks, I mean, trucks

From Regulation To Deregulation

SPEAKER_00 11:00

weren't trucks, trucks were dray horses that were pulling wagons. Um, and and so um it was an industry yet to evolve. The railroads believed that they were important, they were in the railroading business, they didn't even know they were in the transportation business. So um marketers had it had a challenge to say the least, but um it's a very different business today than it than it was then. Um go back to your question. I um uh in terms of watching Lucian, um we watched uh the Association of Railroad Advertising Marketing move from an industry that had 71 class one railroads when I joined in 74. Today we have six basically railroads currently in North America, and soon to be fewer if they have their way. Uh it's all been under the guise of doing business better for the shipper. Well, less competition is a question. Is that better or not? Um, but when you think you're in the business of railroading, as opposed to focused on uh the customer, the shipper, um you may have a different outlook. All that to say, as ARAM grew into TMCA, the Transportation Marketing and Communications Association, um, we uh evolved at least enough to know that we had to get beyond an association of six people. Um you can't run an association with six. Uh I think you would agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

And the consequences, and we had suppliers and the like, but um, but it became a very small organization over time. And um uh and so the invitation of all modes was really the appropriate thing to do, and we opened our arms and invited in um the other associations, some of which um wanted to join, tried a couple of times to join. There used to be a railroad public relations association. Um, in in fact, in the railroad industry, uh PR was sat right outside of the president's office. And the reason, of course, was because if something falls off the track, you you need a public relations program real quick. Real quick, yeah. And um, and and so um there there was this evolution. We we engaged with them a few years uh of meet of our meetings. Um, and uh so uh that along with the old ATA Sales and Marketing Council. Um we have a number of people that are members today and past presidents today who have participated in that. Um and um and so bringing the organizations together uh was really beneficial. I'd love to see a an even greater amount of multi-modes join us. Uh but uh certainly with intermodal, we we play better um today than than we used to. And uh uh in in the days of ARAM, we had in the bylaws um a requirement that said you must be a steel wheel organization. And so so what they were trying to say politely was truckers stay out. Uh we don't we don't like you, we don't care about you. And what we've learned is the best customers, don't tell anybody, but the best customers of the railroad industry are truckers. Welcome, UPS. Um, and so um uh we we do an awful lot of truck train business today, and it is a um uh a huge network that has grown markedly. So um I'll uh I'm I'm rambling, so forgive me for that, but uh but the fact is is that we've done well to grow into TMSA today, and uh and we've grown with folks just like yourself. Um, Brian Everett, who preceded you and the mind share people, uh, were was an organization that I had an opportunity to work with for many of those years. Before that, there was a fellow by the name of Len Hall, who had been at the Santa Fe Railway and um in their marketing department, and he took over uh

Consolidation And Modal Expansion

SPEAKER_00 16:30

for a period of time the the files of before him. Um Joe Joe Joe. I'll I'll get Joe's last name here in just a second. Um Joe Singer. Joe was the he was the executive director, if that's what we called him, uh back in the old days. And um our communication was a newsletter that was mimeographed and mailed um to the members. And um, but it but Joe was our connection um uh in certainly in the 70s and 80s, but he was there before that, um before I came in. Uh he was uh formerly with the Chessy system. And so um, for those of you that don't know, the Chessie was a railroad back in the day, um, and became part of CSX. At any rate, um uh there were lots of really great people who gave a lot um during those years, and uh and so um just a little more history of your uh uh uh uh area of expertise within the group. We've had some great leaders.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

I um I love hearing about the leaders that come before, and it sounds like I know this is true for myself and Brian, and it sounds like from what you just said, too, that like almost every executive director, every CEO leader, whatever came as like a member and then dedicated themselves into the role, which to me is such a special thing for this group. Like you have to know the power of an organization when people fall in love with it as just a member and then dedicate their careers to helping it um be a sellish and grow it, which I think is really special.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

If we had some bumps in the road, um, I think they were more, I don't know if it's philosophical, but we we have had some um uh association management. We had an association management company that did uh was involved in helping to lead the the organization, um, particularly when it was tough to find somebody that was as dedicated as you are or Brian and the like. Um there were many people who loved the organization who worked before it, but didn't have all the skills that an association management company might have. Um, I know Brian invested in that, and and um and you do. It's um so it's important to know the business of your business, which is association management. Um what a typical association management company doesn't have is they don't have the industry knowledge, um, nor necessarily, in our case, the professional skills that are that our members demand. And um, so it's hard to grow membership when you don't really know who the players are, um, and it's tough to deliver on the profession of marketing and or of sales that we have in need today, and so um I I think that we've found the sweet spot in you and Brian and and as you mentioned, in those who um really have been uh dedicated to the industry that you serve.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

I agree, and um, it's fun having you on the podcast because I actually didn't prep you for this question, so we'll see. But um many, many times you've told me that you were like the original podcaster because back in the day you would send out clips of you, like tapes to your customers of you talking about stuff. And I would love to hear more about that process because to me that's a huge step into what marketing is today. So many of us have podcasts, and this is what we listen to, and this is how we get our information. And you had that concept early on that people liked to listen instead of reading sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

It's so fun to tell the story. Um, and I didn't realize it until much later. Um, but in the day um when I was at I spent 10 years in the print business publishing uh focused on transportation. Um, and during that time, I'm a bit dyslexic. So um uh it's it was a challenge for me to read all the journals that were being presented in the industry and have a coherent understanding from each of their perspectives of their angle, if you will, on transportation or logistics, um, let alone the supply chain. And so um in 1984, I had done, I left Connor's Publishing Company and did uh research with thousands of shippers and carriers, um uh intermodal specialists. Um we we the third party was hardly um an ingredient within our industry at that time. But um when I sent uh research to General Motors, they responded.

Opening The Tent Beyond Steel Wheels

SPEAKER_00 22:30

They in fact were the first respondent that I received, uh, response that I received uh in a mailed-out cassette and questionnaire about our industry and marketing. Would you listen to a transportation journal? Well, we called it transportation digest. Um the the initial idea was we'll go out and read all the magazines and then, kind of like books on tape, we'll read it to the industry. Thought that was a wonderful idea. We produce 40,000 of these things and send it out to everybody. Um I thought it was a good idea. Um uh and and so we did the mailing, and um at that time, at the same time, there was an ARAM meeting, uh, the annual conference. It was in Miami, Florida at the Durral Country Club. Woo! Uh it was a very special deal and place. I remember it like it was yesterday. I guess that was the first one. That was 74. I'm sorry. In 84, we were at Hilton Head, and um, a fellow by the name of Woody Woodburn was the president of the association, ARAM, but he was also president of an in-house agency at the Santa Fe Railway. And so I came and presented this wonderful idea about 40,000 tapes going to the industry. And wouldn't that be wonderful? He said, um uh I I've got I'd like to talk to you. Can we when we get back to Chicago on Monday, would you come to my office? Would I come to your office? Yes. So um so I did, and um he wanted to reinvent everything that I had as a wonderful idea about talking to the industry with 45-day old news. Um, because if you're reading publications which take particularly monthly publications, which take time to produce, and then you're producing that material later. Well, it as much as I thought it was a wonderful idea, it probably wasn't, because Woody had a better idea, and that was um they had their super C list. Um, and don't ask me why the C, but a customer, I guess, super customer list. And so they wanted to send a cassette tape that we would produce with them as the sponsor, and we'd send it to their list, but it needed to be an exclusive list. Well, we did have personal computers in those days, so I was able to sort lists uh back then, but we didn't have an internet and we didn't have cell phones. Um, eventually bag phones came in and people rode around in their car with a uh with them. Um but um so there were no there was no competition in the automobile when people were commuting to work. By the way, the average commute was 21 minutes. That was then, this is now, it's way longer than that now because of congestion. But um, so we had research that told us what we could expect. And um, and so what we did do was to produce actual interviews with industry leaders, certainly in transportation. I mentioned General Motors, they were some of the first people on the on the program. So Santa Fe wanted to go to Jerry Baudry at General Motors, and because he was a multi-million dollar, he was a billion-dollar customer. So, anyway, um the all of that to say um we were going to utilize a very specific customer-focused interest um to get to their key clients. Um, it was interesting. The program was sent, uh, the first program we did was sent out on December 15th of 84. And on December 17th of 84, I got a phone call uh from a fellow by the name of Jack Edwards. I didn't know Jack Edwards, but he identified himself as VP of sales and marketing at Southern Pacific Railroad. When there was a Southern Pacific Railroad, if you looked at a map from Southern California to Chicago, ran the Santa Fe and the Southern Pacific. They paralleled each other pretty much to Chicago. Um Jack said, Hey, I'd like to do that program. I said, How did you even know about it? And uh he said, Well, my brother works for the Santa Fe.

Association Management And Growth

SPEAKER_00 28:01

We had many uh of the programs going internally as well as externally. So um Jack said, I'd I'd really like to go to General Motors and uh Jerry Baudry is who I'd put on my list. I said, Jack, we got a problem. Can't go to Jerry Baudry. Um, Jerry is already on the list. I didn't tell him who the sponsor was, but um, I only had one sponsor at that point. And uh, but I did say Jerry Baudary has five direct reports. I happen to know that because I had talked to Jerry, et cetera, et cetera. And he said, I want to go to his five direct reports, because they were obviously the people that would get the job later when Jerry retired. All of that to say we were creating as we went this programming concept. One of the things I you learned quickly is as good as the content would be about transportation, it wasn't about leadership, it wasn't about entrepreneurship, or a program that I did for uh Southern Pacific was called Intrepreneuring. There's a book uh Gifford Pinchot wrote way back when about having entrepreneurs inside your company. So, anyway, we were doing these kinds of interviews with authors and speakers and leaders, um, certainly in our industry and then beyond our industry. And that's what was piquing the listenership. It wasn't about talking necessarily just about transportation and eventually trucks before the trains and the boats and the planes. We tried that and cover it well. Um, the the business journals were doing a great job of that, of course. What we had were personalities. And so people would want to listen to the people that they were trying to sell to. And so we did have lots of subscriptions that went out to the carriers within the industry. Building business-to-business communications was really a product that the customers created. And so over time, certainly many of the railroads and the trucking companies, many of whom aren't anymore. I mean, we don't have railroads, we don't have 70 of them anymore. And the trucking companies, if you look at the top 50 trucking companies in the 70s, there aren't 50 of them there anymore. So the but mergers and acquisitions and all of that kind of thing came together. One of the companies that wanted to speak to leaders in the supply chain was a company called AT Kearney, a consulting company. They were a client of ours for 20 years, but they came to me and said, Denny, transportation digest is not the title that we need to reach CEOs of big corporations. And they created, again for us, a title called Sound Business. We did programming titled Sound Business. We had another one titled Sound Selling for the Field Sales Forces of My Clients. But the concept was there. It wasn't called a podcast, but it was a series of three and five-minute conversations with industry leaders, business leaders, who had a great message that was condensed. And then we would, on the sales side, we'd get people like uh Brian Tracy and Tony Alessandra, Dennis Whaitley, Patricia Fripp, Don Hudson, Jim Cathcart, all kinds of sales types, many of whom became, would you believe it, speakers at TMCA back then. And so

The Proto‑Podcast: Cassettes To CDs

SPEAKER_00 32:30

we had a desire on the part of people who wanted to reach the industry to use our medium to reach out to the marketplace. And so that was very good for us. And it it was content that was so valuable for the audience, but certainly for me. Today, uh Joe Pelesi, our friend in marketing, would uh suggest it was the item that was important. Uh content is king, he would tell us. And so um, as marketers, we were growing, um, the industry was growing, and without question, TMCA then was growing as well. And um, so being able to help put some of those conferences together was a real boon for me. Um, it it had it played well into what I was doing, and it was free for TMSA or TMCA then. Um so we we've really enjoyed that as the medium changed. We went from audio cassettes to CDs, and so we moved up in the world. Um, today, of course, uh communicating uh over the internet works. Look what you're doing now. So uh it's funny for me because I'm sitting on the opposite end of the chair that I normally sit in. Usually I get to do the interview.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

Yes, and I love that story just because I think it shows how things transition through time. And like you said, like it started with the cassette tapes and it went to CDs. Now we're we're digital, and now this type of audio platform is so big, and it just wasn't something that people saw all the time. So I love it. Um, so over the course of this interview, you've talked about a lot of different um people from the past, a lot of different um moments of TMSA. But I just want to ask if there's one moment, person, story that we haven't discussed yet that really stands out to you as incredibly meaningful or memorable?

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Um the the story that I had thought about was the Woody Woodburn story, but but but in fact. My affiliation with this group, it's all about people. Um we've we've had some amazing things go on in business. Um as a very small enterprise. I mean, we had a half a dozen folks on uh well uh on payroll, and then uh almost every program had about 12 to 15 people on one edition. Um and uh in the beginning we were twice monthly, we eventually became a monthly journal. Um but in terms of the who, um, it's the relationships and friendships that have been built. Um I feel like, I hope I could, but I feel like if I needed to in the middle of the night, um I've got a half a dozen people that I could pick up the phone and call if I had an issue, a problem, or a concern, and uh uh personal or business, and they would help me manage through it in a heartbeat. Um and the style doesn't go away for me. In 1987, uh I joined the Traffic Club of Chicago. Um I met the president and uh uh uh walking across a bridge at my office down in the city, who said to me, You should belong to the traffic club. And oh, by the way, um, based on what you do, because the president that year of the traffic club was at Santa Fe, so he knew very well what I did. Um, he said, Um, I think you you you'd be good if you were the education chairman. Well, I said, okay. I I thought maybe it'd be good for me. I didn't know any at the traffic club, uh, except him. And um turned out I've been the education committee chairman ever since. Uh it's it's like it didn't go away. Um everybody gets in the chairs and wants to be president of the association. I'm busy doing what I do.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

I'm good here, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

No, it's all good. Um, in fact, last week um I was at the TM, uh the Traffic Club's uh forum and um introducing some guests that we've had as customers and uh uh speakers to the industry. Um and so I I don't see stopping what I'm doing. When you love what you do, why would you stop? Uh I know I'm old and they say uh you you've you've you've spent your time. But they gave me an emeritus title to try to get rid of me, but I'm not leaving.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

That's I remember when we celebrated our 100 year anniversary last year, they were like at TMSA, you know, are we gonna give Denny a lifetime achievement award? I'm like,

Content, Personalities, And Sponsorship

SPEAKER_03 38:30

he got one in the nine. Like I don't so I that's why I was like, but let's get him a gigantic ribbon and make him wear it that says 50 so that everyone knew that you were celebrating 50 years, because I was like, we still need to recognize what I was like, he already got it in state.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Like there's nothing else we can give him on that like award situation, but um, but that was cool, and um I have been I have gifted all I could get from the organization, from the traffic club, but from the industry, it's been a wonderful ride. Um the reality for me is uh Laura and I both we kind of are pay it forward, give back um as much as we can. And uh we've been so blessed that it would be inappropriate for us to turn and walk away. That that'd be crazy. I love what I do. I get to talk to you, Jen.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

Well, we love having you and admire all the dedication that you have given to the industry, to the traffic club, to TMSA. This takes us to our last question that I ask every person who comes on the show, but I'm really excited to hear your answer. And that's if you could go back in time and advise a younger Denny, and this could be personally or professionally, you can pick any age that you want, but when would you go back to and what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Um I'm gonna look at my notes. Okay, because this is a very it's a good question. I like it. Um, my notes say, Jen, I've been blessed. Um I really have. My life has really been a true blessing. I've lived through miracles. Um beginning in 1954. I can identify significant uh miracle activity that has happened in my life. Um health. Um we have seen in our family. Um miracles happen when doctors said there is no hope. Um and so uh we've we've worked through business, financial, not just stress, tragedy. Um and in the end, all of it came out well. Um and then again, more health stuff with me personally, uh, cancer and uh open heart surgery, those kinds of things um kind of slap you about the head and shoulders, and and and it makes you wonder um uh what would I do? What would I do different? Um, and so I think that that kind of thing is important. Uh we've raised three kids, 11 grandkids, we have seven great-grandkids, and I'm proud to indicate we've we've got one due uh toward the end of this month, and uh another one um that's in the oven uh for next June. So um uh so life really has been a blessing in terms of uh if I could go back. Um there are probably five things that I think about that seem to have been important or turning points in life. Um the the and and in reverse order, um one would be uh a comment by Peter Drucker, um who was interviewed many times, uh, not by me so much, um, or as much, but Drucker wrote 32 books on managing. Um he was uh renowned, and he wrote a um a preface to one of Bob Buford's book. Um uh it was called um uh the first one he wrote was halftime. Oh, it was called the second half. And uh in that foreword, Peter Drucker wrote about what our generation would be known for. I mean, would it be the uh personal computer? Um would it be public policy? Would it be AI? Um, all very big and important things. But Drucker said, no, we will be remembered, our generation will be remembered for the choices we make. You know, that hasn't changed. Uh the first choice that we had was in a garden a long time ago, and so um I think that making good choices was

Legacy Leaders And Industry Mergers

SPEAKER_00 43:30

one of those five things that for me is uh important. Another thing that I focused on a lot was leadership, to lead well, um, but to be humble. Uh I know that the person saying it probably doesn't sound humble when he said lead well, but um but but I think that that's important, and so much so that I think that within leadership leaving a legacy, if you can focus on uh your legacy and to be intentional about it, uh I think that's very, very important. So I think too, as I think back when I was my younger self, what would I do, what would I do differently? Um, it would be to focus on that. Um beyond that, um to listen more than I speak. God gave us one mouth and two ears, and um it's hard for somebody like me who's in the business of speaking uh not to uh talk a lot. And so forgive me for taking up more time than I probably should. Maybe this will end up on the edit floor. That's okay. Um, I want to be a good husband, a good father, I want to be a good grandfather and great grandfather. I want to be a good friend, and that takes time and it's an investment. And um, and so for me that would be important. And then, of course, because it's in reverse order, the most important thing for me is expressing my faith. I I want to be true to my God. Um I need, I want to be able to share my relationship with Jesus to with anyone who would be interested. Um, it's not about a force, it's about a choice. And so um for me, that would to be able to share, um, and especially in business, some of the most fantastic interviews that I've been able to do have been with business guys who happen to have a faith quotient, much as I. And the consequence to that was the excitement that they would generate uh within the programming. And um, the comments that I would get were very positive. Um, people want to know purpose, they want to know why they're here. And as we seek to develop our purpose in business as well as in life, that's um where I would spend hours with anybody who wanted to talk about it. Um and I'm finding that my business today, um last week, uh, lunch with a friend who's going through huge trauma, but he's a business friend. And most times people don't stop long enough to listen to the issues that are in the heads. And and I I know there's so much work as as you guys did with the joint meeting of uh TMSA and and the traffic club. Um, and uh you gals took over that night and and uh did some great stuff. Um, one of the things that I'm finding is that guys in business, they don't talk about it. And um they have all the same issues that you gals do, uh, but guys are pretty close to the vest. They uh they don't show their cards and um sometimes suffer because of that uh with a lot of angst that they don't have to have if they just have someone that they could share it with. Um the the

Why Relationships Still Win

SPEAKER_00 47:46

all of those business relationships that go really deep for me um have a faith quotient involved in it. And uh so what would I do differently? I would share more um where I was invited to share. And uh I think that that could be a real value.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

I agree. I think too, just like what you said about basically like men also have feelings, and it's okay. Um, I think that's really important to note, and something like as a boy mom, um I try to impress in him every day, like how we respond to those feelings is different. So we you are allowed to have them, and so I think that's a really good thing um for for everyone to to process and realize. So thank you so much for coming on the show, for being a part of TMSA and spending time with me to share the legacy that you are leaving in the industry. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Thank you for your interest. Um, thank you for the legacy that you are building. Uh, I think that's very, very important. Um and I I just want to thank the the members and the membership and all the hard workers, the the people who behind the scenes are doing all kinds of stuff all the time. I could sit here and list 50 people right now that um that have given me so much. Uh and um and they've given the organization everybody in it. All we need to do is to make the right choices and then accept the um the gift that others are willing to give to them. Thank you too for what you do. Uh, I'm encouraged, and uh I think we've got uh a really great future in your leadership. So thank you for that, Jen.

SPEAKER_03 49:41

Well, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for coming on the show and have a good one. Until next time.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Bye bye.