Cycles, Trust, And Showing Up with Gary Cornelius

In this episode of On the Move, Jen sits down with Gary Cornelius, VP of Business Development at TCW, Inc. and longtime board member of the Transportation Marketing & Sales Association (TMSA). With more than 35 years in the freight industry and a distinguished tenure on TMSA’s board and committees, Gary reflects on his professional journey, the evolution of sales and marketing in transportation, and the role industry associations play in shaping individual careers and the broader ecosystem. Together, they explore what’s next for commercial teams, how to drive meaningful connection and growth in logistics sales/marketing, and how to leave a lasting legacy. 

Check out the Transportation Sales and Marketing Association (TMSA) website or engage with us on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Welcome And Gary’s Legacy

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 0:23

Hello everyone, and welcome to On the Move, a show where we share transportation sales and marketing success stories. I am Jennifer Karpus Romain, Executive Director of the Transportation Marketing and Sales Association, which is a trade nonprofit educating and connecting marketing and sales professionals in the industry. And today on the show, I'm very excited to have Gary Cornelius, who is VP of Business Development at TCW. And also, this is his last month as a TMSA board member. So before we let him go off the board, but not out of TMSA or out of one call away to be one of my advisors, I wanted to get him on the show, talk about his legacy at the association in the industry and just all things. Gary, so how you doing today?

Gary Cornelius 1:08

I'm doing great, Jen. How about you?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 1:10

I'm very good. Happy to have you

Why A Cyclical Industry Keeps You Hooked

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 1:13

here. Um, you've had nearly a four-decade career in transportation. So I'm curious what has kept you engaged over time in an industry for that long, especially one that's known for its, you know, ups and downs and craziness and back and forth and never knowing what's happening next, which might be it. But what's kept you engaged this long?

Gary Cornelius 1:36

You know, I think I found out pretty early that um this is a great industry for those of us who bore easily, um, because there's nothing boring about what we do. All those changes that you just mentioned happen sometimes annually, sometimes monthly, sometimes weekly, sometimes hourly. Um, you know, and I've said for many years we could move the same exact book of business every day, and something would be different. And that's what's always kept me intrigued with this industry um over the years, through the ups and downs, certainly been some tough times. Um, but uh, you know, it's it's um it's never been boring. That's the thing I could say about it.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 2:22

Yes, and it is the thing that you say about it, and you talk about how there is ups and downs and it will come back. Um, I remember as when I kind of took on more of a sales function at TMSA. You are one of the people who get to listen to me ramble on all the time and ask advice. And you're like, oh yeah, it will come back one day. It will be okay. It's gonna be okay. And I was like, Oh, wow, okay, yeah, I think I needed to hear that.

Gary Cornelius 2:46

You know, I I remember the first manager I had that looked at me and said, This is cyclical. I thought the world was ending. I mean, I I thought we were about to go out of business, I thought the entire economy was crashing. And, you know, he it's proven to me time and time again over the 39 years in the industry that we truly are in a cyclical industry.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 3:11

Um, so you mentioned that first manager.

From Local Buyers To Centralized Decisions

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 3:14

So, kind of where you started your career back then to today, how do you feel the roles of sales and marketing in logistics have shifted?

Gary Cornelius 3:24

Oh wow. Um, which time I would say. When I first got into business, it was more about the local traffic manager. Um, there, you know, there weren't a lot of shippers who had corporate decision making centralized. It was more about the local relationship. And that was good and bad. Um, and the good and bad was you know that as those local managers made job changes, you your business was at risk. Um, there were also those that saw the benefit of their authority uh to gain themselves personally. Um, you know, and then so I would I was kind of relieved to see it come into more of a corporate decision-making role with our major shippers. Um then, most recently, I think one of the biggest changes we've had is that for years in sales, you sold to get the first appointment. And then the sales cycle started there. And this transition was already happening pre-COVID, but I think pre-COVID just fast-forwarded it to where our decision makers realized they didn't have to see 10 salespeople to decide what two or three they wanted to move forward with to decide who they wanted to vet to eventually find one partner. They realized I can do all this electronically, I can do it with video call, I don't have to lose an entire

The Sales Cycle Goes Virtual

Gary Cornelius 4:55

day of seeing salespeople uh to do this. So I still believe that the the personal visit and that on-site meeting is important. However, what we're seeing is that it's later in the sales cycle now, it's more about affirmation for that decision maker that yes, this is the right partner than it is to start the sales process. I remember talking to a longtime industry friend when COVID posted, and I asked him, I said, I said, So, you know, what are you gonna do? I mean, we can't get in the market. What do you, you know, what's your focus? He goes, Oh man, that's easy. He said, I'm just gonna hire nothing but sales managers who bring a book of business in context. I said, Well, what are you gonna do when that once they run through all their friends and family? And he just sat silently, you know, that we truly had to change how we go to market to meet our decision makers where they are.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 5:52

And when you did that, when you made that shift to meet them where they are, did you find that there were skills or approaches that you had to shift with that change?

Gary Cornelius 6:03

Absolutely. Um, you know, selling virtually is tremendously different than selling in person. Um, so you know, to be able to make that same connection in a virtual environment via email, via phone, via video call, and to be able to build that same trust and credibility, because in the sales cycle, the sales manager is establishing personal trust and credibility, and then that personal trust and credibility gets parlayed to the company. Um, and to be able to do that virtually is tremendously different than being able to do it in person or over lunch or over dinner or things of that nature. So, yes, uh, we had to partner with some with some industry friends um and TMSA friends to really help us hone our skills and being able to go to market virtually when that in-person meeting comes so late in the sales cycle now.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 7:06

Yeah, and I was thinking too, as you were talking, there's when you meet someone, and if you're grabbing a coffee, if you're going to lunch, whatever that looks like, you have

Building Trust Without The Office Clues

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 7:16

time to like ease into past the awkwardness of when you first meet someone or you first are talking to someone to get to the end of that. But like if you're virtual with an email or even a Zoom call, like you don't have time to get past the awkwardness, you have to just like create the comfort there right away. That would be really different for sure.

Gary Cornelius 7:38

I think we've lost two things. First is that time, you know, of just of just getting to know each other. The second is something I was trained to do many, many years ago was the landscape you're in will give you clues as to what's important to this individual personally, and use that to find common ground. It may be a picture on a credenza of a golf foresome or their family, their kids, their grandkids, and you find that that personal connection, that common ground. Well, what we found when you started going virtually, first you didn't have that time. Second, most people are blurred out in their background or or in an environment like me right now, just with a painted wall behind you, um, to where you don't have that ability to do that. So, how do you do that? You know, and I think one of the things we had to learn was you do a lot of that before you ever get on the call. You do a lot of that in doing your research not only on the company, but on the individual. I remember in our first shipper's panel at Elevate, uh, we had Tony Budas, and Tony talked about doing your research on on not only the company, but on the person. And he talked about a particular sales manager who reached out to him and said, you know, and in that reach out, said, Hey, I see that you're an Ohio State fan, go bucks, you know, and just you know, doing that research behind the scenes to find that personal opportunity to connect with the prospect.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 9:18

I do, I think that's so important because it is like you build, you don't build relationships with the logo, you build it with the person, and so understanding the person, and then of course, doing your best

Researching People Without Getting Creepy

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 9:30

to put that information into your CRM so that you keep that information because then you help build that knowledge over time so that every time you meet the person virtually or through email, it's not the first time. And I always tell people to like even simple things like this person is not a morning person, don't call them before 9:30. Like I just had someone ask me if they could meet me at 8:30, and I was like, fine, but I know that I will have to like be functional a little bit earlier than I am used to because I'm terrible in the morning. Don't really try to talk to people before at least one and a half cups of coffee because I don't make sense. So I but that's like that that should be on if anyone is putting their notes on me, like write that down because it's just true. Or like, yes, if you greet me with a coffee or ask me if I want to go for a virtual coffee or in person, I'm going to say yes. There's never I will show up for coffee. It's just true. Um, but I feel like stuff like that's really important uh because you're building that. And so we live in this world now where there's data, there's digital tools, there's automation growing that can help field some of that information. But where do you see that human element, the relationship building, building that trust, building your network? How does that still matter the most in freight sales and marketing? Because it really does. And is there ever going to be a real evolution on that?

Gary Cornelius 10:50

You know, everybody wants to talk about data, everybody wants to talk about AI, everybody wants to talk about um, you know, the analysis and all that's important. They're important tools. Um, you know, but I I coach my sales team all the time. We've used a phrase ever since the market started opening back up where I look at them, I say, showing up matters. Showing up matters, your personal investment. Um, when you make that personal investment to get to where that prospect is and to invest your personal time in them, that matters. The data is critical, it's an important tool, but it will never replace the trust and credibility that a prospect or a customer places in their representative and in their service provider. Um, I think the data is another way that the sales model has changed, is that we're delivering more data today than we ever have. And that's a good thing. And from that data, we can increase our credibility with our customers by suggesting solutions, finding ways that we can bring more value to not only them, but to ourselves and both of us gaining value out of the partnership.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 12:08

So we talked a little bit about the research and how important the research is now in virtual. I'm curious. I didn't prep this question, but I am curious on it. Is there, and because I know too, like there's automation that you could be like, here's this person's LinkedIn or here's their name, tell me everything about them. Is there anything that get with that that we then learn too much about people that's creepy if you say it to them upon meeting them for the first time? Like Ohio State fan, that seems pretty safe, but like being like this is the name of your kid, how was his the second

Data’s Role And Why Showing Up Matters

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 12:41

day of third grade? Like that would be creepy to me. How do you do you have to train your team not to utilize the creepy information? Like using too much personal information, like where that balance is like, hey, let's have a build a camaraderie and a trust, but also not like being like I was stalking you on the internet.

Gary Cornelius 12:57

Absolutely. Uh I I remember we were training our customer service team um to be more present virtually when COVID hit as well. And one of the things that I gave them, I said, Okay, okay, on our call next month, I want you to tell me something you learned about this person personally. Um, there were some great coaching moments that came out of that with 18 or 20 customer service people on the call, because some of the things they came to the table with, I was like, okay, that is way too much information. So, yes, I think you know, we we still have to look at it through a very professional lens um and and what is appropriate. Um, you know, certainly collegiate, you know, athletics, um, even where they attended college, maybe their career path, you know, if they've been somewhere else that we serve or have served in our careers, um, you know, but I think when you get beyond that, I think you start dropping in professionalism that risk being able to build that credibility. Because the thing we have to remember is in our job as sales managers, they're not looking for a best friend. They're looking for a quality service provider that can bring value to them. That's different than a best friend. And and you know, we you have to you have to maintain that certain decorum, that certain professionalism, even virtually, and in a world to where people put anything on social media today. And and you know, you can learn way too much, real quick. Yeah, so then then how do you use that in a professional setting to build credibility and trust?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 14:53

Yeah, I I think that I really like that point. Like you want to build a relationship, but it's still a professional relationship in which you're trying to gain their business, and so having that lens on that perspective on when you're going there, because I do, I think. I mean, yes, I do this podcast weekly. Anyone can listen to it. I talk about things you can learn things from, which is fine. If you're like, oh, I remember you talk about this or whatever, but there would be a point in which I felt creepy that people were really sitting in and trying to research me as a person that would make me feel uncomfortable. And so you don't want to do that either. Um, so given all of these changes, your long-term view into the industry, if a commercial team then really wanted to build a career-worthy pipeline, so not just this quarter, so not that guy that you're talking

Say No, Win Later: Credibility First

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 15:39

about that was like, I'm gonna hire the sales managers with the book, what should they be focusing on now? Is it personal branding? Is it internal processes? Is it external partnerships? Where should they be putting their focus to build long-term success?

Gary Cornelius 15:52

I think it's both personal and corporate branding. Um, is one of the most important things. And in in developing that network of contacts um that that opens the door for opportunities through that personal branding. The other thing, too, that I think is is brought us a lot of value, me personally as well as us corporately, is knowing to say no. We're not always the best solution. You know, you can't be all things to a customer. And our clients are smart, savvy individuals. They know that. And if you come to them, I can do everything, then you are damaging your own credibility with that person. Know when to say no. Um, and I we've said no to a lot of clients over the years. I personally have as well. And one of the things I like to say is I'd rather say no to something I know is not within our strengths and live to play another day with you than I would to say yes and potentially jeopardize the entire relationship. And I think we get a lot of respect from from prospects and from customers when we're willing to say, you know, we're probably not your best solution for this. And possibly even recommend other solutions, other companies that you know of that this is their niche, this is their forte, this is their strength.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 17:20

I do I think that solves kind of two problems. Number one, I do think too often I see that branding of like we can do everything, but they don't care that you can do everything, they care what you can do for them. You doing everything doesn't help them if you can't be very good at the thing they need you to do. And so I actually feel like that's like a marketing misstep that I see a lot in the industry is that like we can solve all problems thing because you just can't. And if you can, what do you do really, really well? And then go after those people. And then, too, like you said, there are things in which you can't do as well as somebody else. And as you are building trust, as you're building your brand, as you're building your brand reputation, if you then are not successful in the thing you said yes to, that is what people are going to remember.

Gary Cornelius 18:06

You know, we we talked in a breakout session at our recent executive summit, too, about um one thing that has kind of lost some of its steam with our with our industry, with ourselves.

Discovery Over Decks: Value Starts With Questions

Gary Cornelius 18:20

And and it's really interesting because you made the comment a minute ago that they're interested in what you can do for them. And that's very true. I I talk with my sales team all the time that you know, every prospect you're talking to is talking to you through the lens of what's in this for me. But one of the things that that has is lost steam is the value of the discovery call, you know, and and really finding out where that client is, what their where that prospect is, what their pain points are, what their challenges are, instead of all the grand and glorious things you can do for them. You know, I remember I had a sales manager one time, um, and we're asset-based, and I had a sales manager walk in, and it's about the third customer prospect I heard him tell, we run all Peterbill Model 579 tractors. And we left there, I told him, I said, if you ever tell another prospect that, I will fire you on the spot, they don't care. All they care about is how how is our fleet dependable enough to take care of their business. Um, and you know, so I I think one of the things that in in building that career-worthy book of business um is really focusing on discovery, meeting each individual client where they are, rather than coming in with a pre with a pre canned presentation about you or about your company or your service, you know, how because that doesn't help them in any way, shape, or form. If it doesn't address their issue. You know, and I talk to my sales team all the time that you don't know what your value prop is until you know what the customer's issues are. And the only way you're going to get there is through an effective discovery process.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 20:16

I do. One of my favorite little tools that follows meetings is when it tells you how long you talked in the meeting and like how many like monologue minutes you have and stuff. I feel like that's really great for sales because exactly what you said, like you should be listening, hearing what they need, and then adapting what you're saying back to them based on that. And a lot of times we just go right into what we think they need. Even if you're doing your due diligence because you did your research and you're like, I think that this is what they need. We're still then skipping that step step where we're actually listening to them. And until we do that, they're not going to really trust us, anyways, because they're like, you didn't even bother to and if you're asking the right correct questions, it's going to give you the opportunity to make your value points. So, how do you

What’s Next: Solutions, Not Just Service

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 21:10

think the next five, 10 years will be defined for freight sales and marketing professionals?

Gary Cornelius 21:17

I I think I'm, you know, I was talking with someone in the industry just a few weeks ago, and we talked about we're seeing the cyclical move in sales also kind of back to that personal contact a little bit and back to that personal consultant. I I think you know, bringing value is going to continue to grow, bringing solutions rather than just providing capacity or providing service. Um, you know, it's it's gonna get beyond 98.5% on time. You know, and I and I think that's a good thing because in bringing those solutions and bringing that value, two things happen. First of all, that's where both companies win, you know, in that in that you're the customer's getting a solution, a value-added solution, but you're also gaining the benefit of that value-added solution. And I think that's also what is the foundation for long-term partnerships rather than short-term business.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 22:24

And is there any kind of emerging challenge or opportunity that they should be preparing for today as they move forward

AI In B2B: Help, Not A Replacement

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 22:32

to the future?

Gary Cornelius 22:32

You know, I think we as an industry and certainly in sales, you know, we every conference I've been at, you hear AI, AI, AI, you know, and where does AI fit, you know, and and where does AI help us bring a better product to our customers? Um, you know, I was I was talking with our IT group the other day, and and I said, and they were we were having this conversation, and one of them was talking about this and that and the other. And I said, Oh, that's great if you're in a B2C industry, but we're not. We're in a B2B industry, and most of our customers are not looking for a self-service model. Most of our customers expect us to provide them the backside functions that they need. They don't want, you know, they're they're not going to go on our website and find an invoice, or they're not gonna go on a website and and book a load with a with an AI agent. They expect that personal connection. And I think in sales, we're seeing that come back a little bit more in the importance uh because because our customers are looking for solutions, they're looking for who can add value, who can make my job, my life easier, and who can bring my company savings. Um, through and those savings might not all be rate, they might be a solution that increases efficiency. Um, and and that is best accomplished in a person through that personal connection and that personal engagement. Um, and I think that's one thing that AI will never replace in B2B business. I agree.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 24:22

I agree. Okay, I want to switch gears a little bit. This is kind of multi-layered. So

Joining TMSA And Finding Real Peers

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 24:27

I talked about at the beginning of the opening of the show that this is your last month as a TMSA board member. So I'm curious, um, kind of what got you involved in TMSA in the first place, what got you to serve on the board, and then after we talk about TMSA a little bit, I do I know giving back is such a big part of who you are. So I do want to just talk about your volunteer work and what it means to you holistically as well.

Gary Cornelius 24:50

All right. So what got me involved in TMSA was an industry friend um who I got a mailer um and about a conference, and uh and I got to look it, and his picture was on there, and he was listed as a board member, and um, and I I put a lot of a lot of confidence and trust in my old friend Chuck.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 25:11

And I was like, I know what we're talking about.

Gary Cornelius 25:15

So uh so I called him and and we talked about it, and and I attended my first event, um, and and it was very beneficial at the time. TMSA also had an uh IT type based or a like you know a electronic type conference and in tools and things of that nature. And I believe that's the first time I met you when you were in in Chicago when when you were with a in a previous lot career. Um, but um I I was looking for something for some tools, and uh excuse me. So I attended that and um and just really saw the value in TMSA, not in the standpoint of adding revenue, adding business. You know, we go to a lot of conferences, a lot of things that are about interaction with prospects and customers. But for me, I think one of the things that that I figured out when we talk about all these changes in the industry, you know, you never stop learning, you never stop developing. And I think one of the weaknesses in a lot of sales leaders is that I was having this conversation with Holly Laboda just last week, um, that a lot of sales leaders get moved into sales leadership because they're phenomenal salespeople, and it's different leading a team than it is going to market yourself, and a lot of times they get in that role and they don't know what they don't know. And I think for me, I saw an opportunity with TMSA. First of all, I've never been involved in an organization whose membership was as transparent and willing to

Giving Back And Industry Partnerships

Gary Cornelius 27:02

engage. I mean, we couldn't we walk out of these meetings and we go compete with each other. People taught best practices. People taught, I was talking with somebody a few years ago about an idea I was thinking about trying, and he literally said to me, Man, I spent $75,000 trying to do that and it failed miserably. Don't do it, you know, and you know, so that just that candidness and that transparency and willing to share, um, and realizing that this market's big enough for all of us, and how can we all win in in a market this big? Um, the other thing, too, was I've always felt strongly about partners we choose, whether it's marketing consultancy, sales training, CRMs, different things. I've always felt strongly about them understanding our industry and being a part of our industry. Because if you're not careful, you spend the first 25-30% of an engagement teaching them what we do, teaching them which end of the truck the freight goes in. You know, and so, you know, the other thing that TMSA has brought to me has been some true knowledgeable partners that have come along beside us in the sales and marketing sector to really help us improve our game and help us improve our efforts. Um, so those are some of the biggest values that you know, how I got involved, and then some of the biggest values. Um, and being on the board, um, I've always personally felt, and we as a company, TCW, feel strongly about if we're going to be involved in an organization, then we need to be all in. You know, we don't just need to be showing up and getting the good out of it. We do this with IANA, we do it with American Truck Association, we've certainly done it with TMSA, with state-level associations. Um, you know, that we have we have people on the boards, we have people on steering committees, we have people on work working committees. You know, not only was I a board member, but I was very actively involved in the education committee for many years as well. Um, that's just I think that's I did we just think that's the right thing to do, you know, is that is that bring your strength along with and and give as

Balancing Sales And Marketing At TMSA

Gary Cornelius 29:25

much as you get. Um, and then you mentioned my volunteerism. I I'm I am very passionate about being involved in something bigger than me. Um, certainly for personal motivations, I've gotten involved in cancer philanthropy, uh, both on a fundraising standpoint as well as doing a tremendous amount of advocacy and using our experience to impact policy. Um but I I I talk to our young professionals all the time about what they're involved in that's bigger than them, you know, and and how are you helping lead this our our society, our country, our world a better place for somebody coming behind you? Um and I just we take that very seriously. You know, having having been so close to the cancer world, how can I how can I use that to improve the process or improve the environment for those coming behind us in the fight against cancer? We feel the same way about industry. How can I how can I contribute to TMSA in a way that positions TMSA to be a better partner to the corporate memberships?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 30:46

And as you round out your time here on the TMSA board, what legacy do you hope that you leave behind on your time here?

Gary Cornelius 30:54

Three things, actually. First is um we fought hard to bring the balance of sales and marketing to the organization. And I've often been the sales voice in a room full of marketers and beating the sales drum constantly and making sure we're bringing value to the sales side. I think that looks differently for TMSA than it does marketing, because even as a sales leader, I'll tell you, it's difficult for me to justify pulling my entire team out of the market and to go to a conference that doesn't yield uh immediate opportunities for business. So, how can we train the trainer? How can we bring, you know, bring sales stuff to our salespeople where they are, you know, whether it's tracks, whether it's online, whether, you know, what it whatever it is. So, you know, first the emphasis on sales. The other two are related specifically to our conference. Um, I'm really excited to have been a part of bringing the voice of the customer to our events. Um and and that I think that's so critically important.

Voice Of The Customer And Economics

Gary Cornelius 32:05

We can sit in a room as sales and marketers and talk about best practices, but until we hear the perspective of our buyer on what what works and doesn't work with them, how do we really know that these best practices are going to win business and are going to maintain business and build those relationships? The second thing is, in today's world where we are expected to be knowledgeable and bring almost a consultant position to our customers, is bringing the economic perspective to our membership and and the the economic panel and and the power group we have on that. I mean, we have DAT and Bloomberg and ATA represented in a way that they're like, hey, sign me up, we'll be back every year. Um, you know, and and to me, those are, you know, I I look at those and and feel with pride that that I was able to be a part of that through the education committee um and and help help bring those to our our membership and our efforts.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 33:13

So Dean Um from DAT is on the episode before yours. And so when I was highlighting your episode, like, come back for Gary. He's like, we love Gary. I'm like, we do, which is really funny. And um I would say if those are the three major things that you would like as your legacy, I would say you've been successful in doing all those things. Um you mentioned that we met first at TMSA in my past life. I did, you know, I was a vendor at TMSA before taking over and then just through this role. You have always been one of the voices that I trusted the most. And I told you at the very beginning when I took this job that like I put your little sales voice on my shoulder and it whispers in my ear the whole time. Um, I will miss that dearly um having you off the board, but I still have your phone number, so I will definitely still

Stepping Back To Build Bench Strength

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 34:00

make you listen to me and advise me. But I wanted to take the space to just thank you for all that you've done for the organization. But for me personally, in my own leadership journey, um, when I took this role, I was pretty green on many things that I was doing. And without the support, but like true action-based support of people in the organization, I wouldn't be where I am. And you're definitely one of those people who helped guide the process the most. So thank you.

Gary Cornelius 34:27

Well, thank you. I, you know, I I've chosen to step away from the board for a reason. Um I I'm stepping back, but I'm not stepping away. In typical TCW fashion, we will continue to engage. Our marketing manager is um is actively involved now. Um as I look at sunsetting my career in a couple years, um, I'll be engaging my successor in TMSA, possibly as soon as Elevate, um, to engage him. Um, but um, you know, in typical TCW fashion, we'll continue to contribute. And um, you know, I want to go back to to your development. It goes back to what I said a minute ago about sales leaders, you know, is that you have to have a willingness to learn. And that's the thing that that you know, I think it's been one of your strengths, Jen, and this role coming in. Particularly, I mean, you were very candid. I don't know anything about sales. Yeah, the sales strategy task force is looking, you know, sitting there going, yeah, but you're dang good at it. So uh, you know, I and I I think that's another thing too that I love about TMSA is that it is so volunteer led that you know that you know it it brings so much expertise and so much knowledge to the table because it's it's it's industry professionals leading this well, besides you leading this organization. I mean, I don't think anybody would ever realize how lean TMSA is as far as staffing. Yeah that it truly relies on the membership to drive its success. And and that's uh that's refreshing in this organization.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 36:14

It does. Even

Advice To A Younger Self

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 36:15

I mean, you mentioned um, you know, being one of the co-chairs for education and bringing on those panels. Um, I love when people come into the education committee and like the first thing they are saying they're like, wow, there's so much, yes, yes, there is so much that that committee does. I don't I pick like the keynote speaker, that's pretty much it. And I still have to get approval from the committee. Like, I there's some things that I put in, but I rely on the people in the industry to really have their finger on the pulse of what's going to matter the most. And I can give suggestions and things like that, but like without that committee, the programming doesn't exist.

Gary Cornelius 36:49

So and another reason I've chosen to step back from the board is I also believe in bench depth. And I believe I believe in term limits. Um, you know, that that I I think um as as some I think if if it's the same group all the time, there's no fresh ideas, there's no fresh thought. Um, and I believe in bench depth, and I believe in in developing our next group of leaders, not only corporately, but as an association as well. Who's that next group of um of industry professionals willing to step into these roles and contribute to what I would call our organization?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 37:36

Absolutely. Well, you did tell me that when you came into the board that I will not be here forever. I will serve my time and then we'll let you know when I'm done. And so here we are, which I appreciate um the time served. And I I agree. Um, I think that it's been a joy to work with you. And yes, like you said, you're stepping off the board, but not out of TMSA. And we love um your support and TCW support. Um, last question that I ask everyone who comes on the show if you could go back in time and advise a younger self, anything, and this could be personally or professionally, when would you go back to and what would you say?

Gary Cornelius 38:12

You know, I I was a very brash young professional. Um and and I didn't know what I didn't know. And I I think there's two things that I would say to myself, you know, I I had to learn through some some hard experiences that I needed to never quit learning. Um, that I would say to myself is that first, always continue learning, always be open-minded to new ideas. The second, and this comes into play not only as a sales professional, but certainly even more as a sales leader, that it's it's more about the people than it is the process. You know, I um as I've worked to train, we TCW, we have a we have a growth from within structure, and we hire young professionals just about every semester and bring them through our ranks. Um and you know, I've had some success stories that we're doing that, and I've had some failures where I what was working with these two individuals, I tried to apply to a third individual and it failed miserably because in leading salespeople, it's no different than our prospects. You know, that every everyone's a different personality, everyone has different challenges, and and as a leader, we have to meet our team where they are. Yes, we all have standards, yes, we all have you know certain criteria we have to meet, certain goals we have to hit. However, how we get there needs to look differently according to what each individual's strengths are. And I think that's the two things I would tell myself is that first, never Quit learning, never stop learning, never think you've reached a point to where you've learned everything you need to. And second, it's a lot more about the people that surround you than it is you. And how you bring the work of the group together is much more powerful than what any one individual can do.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 40:21

Absolutely. I think that is great advice. So thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you for all of your support at TMSA and um just for sharing your knowledge about the industry overall. It's always great to hear from you. Thank you.

Gary Cornelius 40:35

Well, thank you for having me. I thoroughly enjoyed it and look forward to our activities with TMSA through the next year.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 40:43

Perfect. Thank you. Have a good one.

Gary Cornelius 40:44

Thank you. Bye bye.