From Visibility to Authority: Rethinking Growth in the AI Era

Most logistics companies aren’t struggling to create marketing activity, They’re struggling to be understood when it matters most. As AI reshapes how buyers search, evaluate, and choose partners, the rules around visibility are changing.

In this episode, Kameel Gaines, Founder of Atlas AI Growth & Marketing Agency and a finalist for TMSA’s AI & Technology Showdown keynote, shares how her perspective has evolved from traditional marketing execution to building true authority in the AI era. We explore what’s shifting beneath the surface, where companies may be misaligned, and how leaders should start thinking differently about positioning and growth moving forward.

Check out the Transportation Sales and Marketing Association (TMSA) website or engage with us on LinkedIn.

Transcript

Welcome And Meet Camille

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 0:23

Hello, everyone, and welcome to On the Move, a show where we share transportation sales and marketing success stories. I'm Jennifer Carpis Romain, Executive Director of the Transportation Marketing and Sales Association, which is a trade nonprofit educating and connecting marketing and sales professionals inside transportation and logistics. And today on the show, I'm super excited. We have Camille Gaines. She is founder and chief AI Marketing and Growth Strategist at Atlas AI Growth and Marketing Agency. She's also the CEO of Wig on Reels. Welcome to the show, Camille. How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

I am doing great. I had to remember that I was about to be popping on because whoever made your intro, I was like, okay, okay. Yes.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 1:06

Yes. I love the intro. I also dance and I'm glad that they can't see us while that goes on.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yes.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 1:14

So so excited to have you here today. Um and I think that I want to start because most people will know you from rig on wheels. And so now

Why Atlas AI Was Born

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 1:25

you've launched Atlas AI Growth and Marketing Agency. Let's talk about that. What led you to make that move? What pulled you into the next chapter? And obviously you still have that. So, like, how are you doing it all, ma'am?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Okay, well, listen, let me tell you something. Can't do it all, can't do it all. But yes, first, we still have rig on wheels, but we do a lot of things on project basis. Okay, so a lot of things are done on project basis with the third-party um recruitment agency, and a lot more work is going into Atlas AI growth and marketing agency. So that's um um where that is going there. So when we talk about why I started that, why I launched that, that is a very good question, and I get that so much. Okay, so let's start with this story here. Well, no, I know right, juicy, juicy, juicy. But been doing this now in the trenches with rig on wheels for a little over 16 years, right? And when I say in the trenches, like literally and on the phone, in person, and going to the uh yard. So in my boots, because you know it's mud, and sometimes when it's dark outside, and anybody that knows me knows I do not drive very well at night, okay? So literally in the trenches, but with saying that I started noticing, you know, we're just spending all of this money on leads, and companies are really spending their last on leads, and it's not going anywhere. Okay, everybody's competing over the same drivers or the same clients. If we're talking about my clients that are service-based clients in the logistics industry that are not trying to compete for the drivers, and it's not helping, right? And then I said, We we have a problem, and so at the same time, I was doing the rig-on-wheel show, so folk knew that I'm doing marketing and dealing with AI and all of that there, so clients start coming to me in that aspect, some different clients and some of my same regular clients and said, Can you help me out in that basis? And so I started uh doing that, and I said, Okay, yes, Atlas AI will always be connected to Rig on Wheels, obviously, because it's going to be part of the transportation, trucking, and logistics space, but I do separate it a little bit and give it its own name. So that's where Atlas AI marketing and growth agency came from.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 4:16

I love that. And how is your perspective on marketing and growth kind of evolved through all of your years in the industry?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

So, at first, when you think of marketing, you think of just more, more, more. I did too. Oh my god, let's do more, let's add more, let's add and divide, let's do all this math. I'm the math person, let's get out my calculator. You know how I always said, remember, you know, this the calculator is my favorite app on my iPhone, you know, that type of stuff, and it might still be my favorite app, but as going through this journey um with myself over the last few years, and I always beta my own products on

From More Marketing To Clarity

SPEAKER_02 5:00

our company. Okay, so we are our own crash dummy first, and then we go from there. Not always politically correct, but it's it's the truth, okay. So that to go from there, then have other case studies, you know, going forward. But the biggest thing that I noticed is alignment decision um clarity. That is where my perspective changed. The decision clarity based on having systems for um my clients and not just having the systems, but for them to actually know how to work the systems and what system stacks made sense. Because when I would go in, I would notice some clients, especially my SaaS clients, they had stacks, they're tech clients, but it didn't make sense, and they were just adding stuff all together and piecing stuff together, especially in our industry. We are good at piecing databases together, we piece everything together, but it was taken away from their bottom line versus giving to their bottom line. They had systems, but their systems didn't connect, so it was no way for all of these AIs to make any sense, so there was no clarity in these systems, so that's what I realized. Their marketing, yeah, we need matrix, and and my the calculator is still my best friend, but it comes way after. It's not in the beginning, it's not part of your 10x um my Grant Cardon uh sales, you know, pitch or whatever. It it is not part of that. Yeah, you still want a 10x, but you want to 10x your energy. You don't want to 10x your marketing. That's not what it's about.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 7:07

And when did you really start to notice that something was shifting and how companies then were being found? So you talked about like leads and all that stuff, you can't just throw everything at it, but companies are being found differently, they're being understood differently, they're evaluated by buyers differently. When did you realize oh, this is a big change and we have to do something about it?

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Okay, so in marketing, we got two different things in the beginning. We're gonna call it an old school. The old school was three years ago, sure. So old school three years ago, your son was what six five?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 7:45

Yeah, he just turned nine.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Oh so it was a year before I became an abra. So I was a young whippersnapper then, and and so back then it was do more, more eyes that were seen on whatever your service or your product was. You're

The Educated Buyer Takes Control

SPEAKER_02 8:10

gonna give more calls, let's go forward, let's do it. They're gonna assume that you are the better, whatever it is. Also, if you are the better, you'll continue to get those calls. That's not the truth anymore. The buyer is different, the educate, they're educated, and it's not just because of age. People assume because we have young whippersnappers out here, that that's the reason why. I'm telling you, it's not a generational thing. So throw that marketing book from when I have one of my degrees in marketing, it was the truth up until your son was four and five years old. That was true. Now it's not true anymore. The concept is still true, but it's not true anymore. So now what is true is yes, they still need to be seen. That is true. However, the buyer wants answers, they need clarity. So that is what they're looking for. And if you're not there to answer their questions when they search for you, you're losing. Absolutely, you won't be there to be recommended. So, what's happening is if you're a company, you are a plumbing company, Jennifer. Congratulations. I you know, I gave it to you. So it's Jennifer Plumbing Company, right? You don't have like all these great reviews or anything like that. That's not what it's about, but you're there to answer all of these questions on Gemini. For me, I don't know anything about a toilet, and that's the truth. It's certain things I do know, but not about a toilet, other than you know, before you flush, you put down the seat.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 10:12

Okay, that's important.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

That's very important for people that don't know, you know, on the podcast. Yes, yeah, good. Like I want to let them know. So that that is what you do, but because of that, I'm really not looking at your reviews. Sometimes I do only because I remember maybe I want to look at a review for a certain thing, just for a certain thing, but not about the toilets. I wouldn't do that. It would be something I'm already educated in. I'm not educated in toilets, so I wouldn't look at it, right? However, because I'm not educated in toilets, I'm trying to get some education in it because I'm an educated buyer, and I'm going to go along with the person that's educating me. Then I go back and look at Google and call the number. That is how things are changing. Now, mind you, you can come and fix my toilet and it falls through the floor.

unknown 11:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

But I'm considered an educated buyer now.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 11:29

Right. I definitely think that that I agree. I think there's been a huge shift of people wanting to learn themselves and have an understanding of what they're they're doing or what they're um buying for or who they're working with. I think that's a huge shift. And then when they're going to actually make those decisions, they're so much farther down. And even in TMSA, like that's what I have our partner members come in. I let them know, like, hey, if you come in and you're just hard selling our members, they're not going to want to work with you. They they want to build relationships. They want to know that you're educated on the topic that you say they are. They want to know that you have experience in transportation and logistics. They want to know how, you know, your thoughts on A, B, and C. And if you're just here hard selling, then they don't have a good experience and they don't trust you as much. It is becoming um a authority on a topic. And that's something that you've talked about too, is that it's not that companies are having a visibility problem right now, it's an authority problem.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Yeah.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 12:31

And so, do you want to explain more about what that means?

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Yeah. So the one that clarifies something, visible. Okay, so let's start from the top. Visibility is through a search, it's SEO, basically. Is that the part you want me to explain?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 12:48

Yeah. And so like so you can be really visible and you can be a bunch of places, but A, if you're not in the places that your buyers are, that's a huge miss. And then your competitors can also be in the same places and be just as visible. So, how do you become the authority, that person that's showcasing that thought leadership, that experience, so that they then want to choose you in the end?

SPEAKER_02 13:10

Right. So a few days uh ago, I did um put this on my page about SEO. SEO is not dead. We still need SEO because remember, I found your number after your authority, or it could have been before, either way, especially with Gemini, it could be either or, right? So I found your number through the SEO channels, the local SEO channels. So that is a form of authority as well. We consider that old school authority, it's still important, still needed,

SEO Plus AEO Builds Authority

SPEAKER_02 13:50

still very important. But who else is there? Your competitors are there, just like you said. So we need to be mindful of that. So when somebody is only looking at that, unless they're specifically knowing they're going there for Jennifer's plumbing, they're also looking at reviews, and now they're comparing you against the reviews, they're gonna compare 4.5 to 4.7 when really that's the same reviews, that's really no difference, right? But now you're going into that. Versus where we talk about authority, is clarity. Clarity is somebody needing they need clarity on something, they want to understand what it is. So I need to know what could possibly be going on with this toilet. It's stopped up. I've been using the plunger, and I have a good plunger that I went to Lowell's to go get, right? So I didn't go to Walmart, I didn't go to Target or anything like that. I went to Lowell's and got a $40 plunger because I'm assuming that's a better plunger for whatever the reason is. Somebody might have told me I got whatever. So I have a really good plum plunger, and it's worked before, but this is not working. So I'm on my computer or my laptop, and I'm thinking I'm Googling, right? But really, I'm on Gemini's AI, right? And I'm it's considered AEO, right? It's answering, and it's giving me answers, and that's authority and that's clarity right there, and so I'm finding out some of the reasons is because something can be stuck. Oh, I did say I didn't know stuff, but I do know this because I got a grandson, and hopefully he doesn't do this again. But a toy could be stuck in the nozzle or whatever it's called, the nozzle, the thingamajig, and it can't get past with the plunger, so you're going to need uh a plumber to come out because toilets don't just get stopped up for no reason. So you're gonna need somebody to come out with the something else, and you can't put Draino in there to drain it out because that's not gonna work either. So who gave me this information was Jennifer's company, so now I'm gonna get Jennifer's company's information, and Jennifer's company information is gonna come from search, and that was the SEO, so I'm gonna intentionally go back and get the SEO information, or for late terms, the search information, which is on the local Google, because Jennifer is in my area, so that's what the quality comes from.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 17:00

Yeah, I think that's so important because at the end of the day, then who are you gonna trust to do the work? The people who are already identifying your problem or what your solutions can be, or how we can work together before you then even decide who you're doing it. It's that it's that same concept of like why we go to conferences and speak, and why we do that, it's a thought leadership piece of engagement of in marketing. So I think that's hugely important. And then to maximize that for your companies and for your business, that will help start to differentiate you from your competitors because if your answers are the ones that are popping up, hugely important.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Absolutely. That's absolutely in this scenario that I gave is maybe not with the plumber, but with other things, is exactly what I do because I moved into a house now. It's it's a wonderful house, it has great bones-ish. I do live in Houston, so nothing has great bones because I come from Chicago and every house has great bones, including the shack. So I'm in Houston, Texas, and nothing has great bones, but it does have great bones, but it does need some tender love and care. So I don't really know how to do anything other than you know, cook clean. I know how to do domestic stuff, you know, those type of um things. So I need help, and my mother knows how to do everything, but my mother's 84, you know, I can't really expect her anymore to get on the the ladder.

Elevate Tech Showdown Preview

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 18:40

So I'm really excited to um have you at Elevate this year. You are actually one of the finalists for our technology showdown. So, in case listeners don't know, at Elevate This Year, which is June 7th through 9th in Denver, we are having an opening keynote that has four finalists, and Camila's one of them, that will be talking about real technology solutions that you can integrate into your businesses now. Like it's not, oh, this is in theory something that you could do or just a promotional pitch for vendors. No, this is real action, real things that are happening right now that people can take and go. And the audience will get to vote live on who our tech mic drop winner will be of those finalists. So I'm really, really excited about this overall and so excited that you are one of the finalists. You've been um in and around TMSA for a couple of years now, but what drew you to want to be a part of the AI and tech showdown?

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Well, first of all, TMSA is family. So let's start there. Everybody knows how I feel about TMSA, including other organizations that I might be a part of, um, because you know, you know, when you know, you know. But uh first of all, if TMSA is family and we're gonna do a showdown, and you know, I live in Houston now, whom else would I do my first showdown with TMSA, right? And when I saw that it's a part of AI, and it that is close to my heart and everything, and I know that we in our transportation, trucking, and logistics sectors, we need help in that. A lot of other sectors out there, industries out there, they are well beyond where we are, and I want to really help us because I know that we are drowning in it, and it's not oh later, because the companies later will already have the visibility and we'll be trying to catch up, so it's right now that it needs to be done, and so it hurts my heart every time I hear somebody saying, Well, maybe I'll do that later, and I hear that so often, and then just I get frightened about that because I know that that means that their company won't be here later. You know, that's a fact. So um, with saying that, that is one of the main two reasons to be a hundred percent honest.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 21:29

Yeah, I mean, I think it's important. I mean, yes, we hear the the push, oh, we don't have the budget for this, we can't um invest in this right now for marketing and sales and professional development all the time. That's where we live and breathe at TMSA. So um I agree. I think these are things that we need to invest in now so that we're still here later. And so excited um to have you here at TMSA to do.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Mic drop. But basically, where else would you be is if everyone that is gonna be there, and especially everyone that is going to be speaking, whether it's keynote or all of our other specialized speakers that have been selected, are eat and breathe a hundred percent transportation, trucking, and logistics. That's all we do a hundred percent. It's not a side hustle for us, it's what we do a hundred percent. That is our niche, is what we do. So whether um we some people are contractors, some people are self-employed or entrepreneurs, however you want to classify that, and then some people are W-2, but it's a hundred percent our full-time job. You are not going to find that anywhere because I do get other marketers that want to collab and all of that, and when I look at their work, it's not that their work is not good, however, I'm able to know that they have no idea about our industry, and if their client is trying to attract clients, it's it can't work.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 23:24

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that's part of why we're doing the keynote the way we are this year, is because you know, in the past we would have that more traditional keynote speaker, but we wanted to give space more space to our our industry experts, our thought leaders, give real solutions for the audience to be able to take with them. So without giving away your full rundown of what you're gonna be doing in your part of the keynote, I do want to know what's one misconceptions companies still have about how they're showing up in search or in an AI-driven environment.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

I said part of it earlier, but something some companies feel that SEO is dead. That's the ones that's going to strictly to AI, can't do that. They want to have their hands off of everything, they just want straight AI, can't do that because we need human touch, or ones that feel that AI is not needed, you don't need that for clarity, you don't need that for authority, and all three of those are myths or just spank, naughty.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 24:38

Yeah, yeah. Um, and if a for the marketing and sales leaders that are listening right now, what would be an early signal that something might be off and how they're positioning their company?

Positioning Red Flags Leaders Miss

SPEAKER_02 24:50

We have heard this since the beginning of time, okay? These leads are bad, yeah. Like, okay, that's a positioning issue. You have leads that are coming in that are not for your company, they are for the company up the street, or down the road, or a few clicks right up the street, or you have your your client is looking at your website and they still don't know what you do, or they're looking at your content and they ain't got a hill of beans, they have no idea of what's going on. Those are three red flags right there. You don't have a clue.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 25:36

So that's it. I think that's so important. Um, yeah, I think a lot of times it's sitting through and like allowing your marketing team to sit with your sales team and hear how they pitch. And so that way they're able to create messaging that matches, create the verbiage on the website that matches all of that. I also think that um I still see this. People will be like, oh, we were founded in 1925. And it's like, that's for an about us page, that's not for a home page. Like, people want to know what you can do for them. They don't care about how long you've been in business. Not that they want to like necessarily go into business with you if you've only been in business for like a month, but like that's stuff that you identify later on down the road, or people want to learn more about your company, your company values. There's a space to be had for that type of stuff on your website, but it's not that first bleed-in. It's not that first paragraph. It's really, and from your point, like SEO, you don't want them picking up the year or thinking that's what's most important. You want to be it to be picking up what you can do for your customers and your prospects.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

You definitely don't want that 1925 picked up as a search. That can be misconstrued very in a very negative way for Google. So you need to be careful.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 26:57

And so, really thinking through like how and how easy is it, how you were talking about earlier. Like, okay, so we know that the AI component of this is answering, letting those people have those answers, but at the end of all of that, then they're still going to be looking for a phone number or a form or something to contact you to do the actual business. How easy is it for them to find that on your website or in in your um wherever you're sending them to your landing page, your website, whatever it is? Some people bury it, and so it shouldn't be buried.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

That should not be buried.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 27:31

You don't want them there, you know. The goal is your is is to get them to contact you, and so really thinking through that is making sure it's understood what people should do once they get to your website as well.

SPEAKER_02 27:46

Yeah, you want them to know what to do. Don't you don't want anything left up for assumption, and then another thing I tell my clients when it comes to Google or something like that, perception is reality. So just think about it like that. You Google is there to perceive stuff. So your case on that 1925, they're not a human, so they're not reading it as a human. So they're seeing 1925 on a home page, not an about us page. That's an about us thing. So, what is it that you're telling it on a home page? Look and see what should be long on this home page versus 1925, and what do you think it's perceiving that 1925 is? And when they say, Oh my goodness, exactly.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 28:42

Yep, and so how do you think that leaders could really be thinking differently? Like I know we covered some of it, but is there anything that we missed on how leaders should be thinking differently about how they're approaching their go-to-market strategy or their their messaging, besides this kind of thing? I feel like we've put all of the pieces out there, but how do they put that um holistically together to make it more of a structural shift?

SPEAKER_02 29:06

I think it's structured but unstructured when I say this. You have to be open-minded when it comes to AI. Because even though AI has been around for this, it isn't new, it's just more new to the lay person. That means they have to be open-minded. Now, SEO is structured

Smarter Stacks And Subscription Rules

SPEAKER_02 29:30

because it's been around so long that the lay person understands it, even if they don't know what SEO is, they understand search. Okay, so they associate more authority with search, right? They don't understand, they don't associate AI with authority, so right now they have to be open-minded. So that's what I want the company owners and decision makers to do is to be, you have to be open-minded. There's nothing else to say or to talk, you have to be open-minded. Being closed-minded will will close your doors, and has already started to do that.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 30:15

Yeah, it really has. Do you think that that's kind of where leaders might be underestimating what's happening right now? Is that you know we're we can push that off for a couple years. We don't have the budget for this, we can't do this right now. Is that where we're underestimating the power of utilizing these technologies and really being able to push what we're doing forward?

SPEAKER_02 30:39

Let me tell you something. Some people don't have the budget for their gas bill, but it's still in Ohio.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

It's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

Does that answer the question?

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 30:52

Yeah, it does. I I agree. I think you have to find the time. And sometimes, like what I'll advise people who do have smaller budgets, sometimes it's not about then the actual money, but finding the time or the the technology you can use. I don't ever recommend going out there getting the highest priced item and hoping yes. You have to, of course, you have to prove the ROI and the capabilities. And even with that, like when you're evaluating tech, make sure that the tier you can afford is the tier that has the things that you need on it. You know, sometimes people will be like, Oh, I need this solution, this can do it. And you find out that's that highest price point, and you can't afford that.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

And so that, yeah, and a lot of times you don't need all of that yet. Your goal is to need it, yes, right? That might be your goal to need that. So, with saying that, that's the reason why I say let's look at this your stack that you have versus the stack that you need, and then let's look at what you have now that we can swap out certain things. If we use this, then you don't need these three things. Yes, things like that, and then as time goes on, there are going to be some AI systems that you don't need anymore because things change so rapidly.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 32:15

That's what I was gonna think too. Like technology now is integrating those AI capabilities, everything is having different functionalities, more platforms are trying to do more than just one thing. And so I do think regular tech sack evaluations and really seeing, okay, yes, like you said, if we're using this over here, we might not need this stuff over here, but we don't know that unless if we're looking and maximizing each of the pieces we already have.

SPEAKER_02 32:40

Um and then something else, another tidbit for a micro business, not necessarily a small business because that's relative, but for a micro business, like a kitchen table business, a kind of uh you know, a micro business, don't pay for the year for subscriptions. Pay monthly because you will be so surprised, especially in the AI world, you'll use something for three months, and you'll buy about three different things, and it really inexpensive, really inexpensive. You'll have something for $20, something for $50, and something for $15, and then in five months, you'll have something, two things to replace all of that, and one will be twenty dollars and one will be fifteen dollars. Yeah, and then I'll come in and say, Okay, now let's replace those. Let's audit, let's do an AI audit.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 33:41

Yeah, and I think it forces like I always tell people to like don't just do a yearly plan. Like, I like to do quarterly plans and strategies, but of course, you can have your year-long goals or whatever, but if you're only checking in with things once a year, you're missing so much. You're missing so much, so much, and so I like to be forced to do that stuff quarterly because then you're having those regular check-ins, you're looking at the price points, and so with something like that, like yeah, if you're paying a yearly subscription, you might not look at it again for a year because you don't have to. But if it's if it's monthly or quarterly, you're paying more, like, okay, this money's coming out right now. What does this mean and how are we utilizing it? Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:22

The only way I would pay for it for you, and I had to learn that, but the only way I would pay for something for you is if it's a dollar, five dollars, or ten dollars for a month. Other than that, in this AI world, don't do it. Yeah, don't do it.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 34:36

Yeah, that makes sense. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Like I said, so excited to have you as one of our keynote finalists for Elevate,

Legacy, Family, And Closing

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 34:45

which is June 7th through 9th in Denver. You can get more information about the keynote and about Elevate itself at events.tmsa today.org. I have one last question for you. So you have been on the show before, so this is the second question that I ask people when they come back. So if you could go back in time and relive one day of your life, you don't get to make any changes to it. That's that's the big stipulation, but you could just go relive the day. What day would you go back to and why?

SPEAKER_02 35:16

When I realized that Atlas AI Marketing and Growth Association was not just to make money, it was legacy, is my word now, and it has been my word since Mackay was born. I have two grandkids now, but since Mackay was born January 11th of 2024, and I'll be able to leave it to my two nietos, that's when I realize I'll be able to leave a legacy. I'll be able to leave something, systems, and that's important for me. So everything I do in relation to this business, the clients that I take on, and all of that, it the reputation that I have through the business is very important. Things that I personally post on social media because of the relationship that it's gonna give me through Atlas AI is important because I want to leave the legacy for my nietos.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 36:27

I love that. I do think legacy is important, and you know, we all have one life to live, and what do we want to be remembered for and remembered by, and how are we spending our time while we're here? All heavy, important things. So great to think about. Everybody know how I feel about my nietos. I sure do. They are adorable.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yeah, I want to face time when I get off of here.

Jennifer Karpus-Romain 36:51

Okay, well, good. Won't waste any, not waste any of your time, won't we get any more of your time? Um, but so excited to see you in Denver. Um, and yeah, you can join me and Camille at Elevate June 7th through 9th in Denver, and we will catch you there. And thank you for coming on the show.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Bye bye. Thanks, Jan.