Hey, We Need to Talk

Today on U-M Creative Currents, you’ll learn all about “social practice artist,” cultural strategist, and curator Philippa Hughes. The concept for this “social sculpture” exhibit, open at UMMA now through February 9, 2025, started in Hughes D.C. home in 2016. Hughes developing relational and creative experiences are aimed at strengthening democracy and repairing the social fabric of our country one conversation at a time. 

Hughes "Hey, We Need to Talk!" exhibition embodies the four pillars of flourishing outlined in U-M Professor Jenna Bednar's research – community, sustainability, dignity, and beauty. 

The exhibition runs at UMMA now through February 9, 2025. Listen today!

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Transcript

Season 2, Ep. 3: Philippa Hughes

Mark Clague: 0:07
Welcome to UM Creative Currents, a Michigan arts podcast where we discuss collaborative creativity and how the arts can lead social change. Today, we're diving into a timely conversation with artist, social sculptor, educator, speaker, writer, Philippa Hughes. Welcome, Philippa. It's great to have you here.

Philippa Hughes: 0:23
Thank you. This is so fun.

Mark Clague: 0:25
Yeah. So this is going to be an easy one because you do conversations all the times, right? So you have an exhibit currently at the University of Michigan Museum of Art. You're teaching at the Ford School. You've been on campus before. There's this beautiful installation on the second floor with all these flowers. And it's called, what, Hey, We Need to Talk. So tell us about this exhibit. What do we need to talk about?

Philippa Hughes: 0:50
Well, we need to talk about our civic discourse, about repairing the social fabric of our country. We know that democracy is fraying. The foundations of our country are fraying because we're not talking to each other, because we refuse to talk to each other. And how can we have a country when half of us don't talk to the other half? And so that's the foundation for this exhibit is let's just talk. We're not even here to talk about policy or debate things because we have lost apparently the ability to do that. So for me, we just need to be in relationship with each other first. And we begin that by having a conversation.

Mark Clague: 1:33
That makes so much sense because it just feels like we're living in different worlds right now. And we can't understand the other people. We don't feel connected to them. We don't feel that they're not Americans, right? They're not part of our world. And yet they're also our neighbors, but we're just not talking to them.

Philippa Hughes: 1:48
Yeah, that's right. It makes me so sad when neighbors aren't even talking to each other because that used to be sort of the thing. At least we can talk to our neighbor because if your house were burning down, I wouldn't ask you what political party you were in. And I still think to that degree, it's still true in terms of emergencies. But beyond that, that, it's very sad to me that you don't even talk to the person next door. And in fact, I have a great story about that.

Mark Clague: 2:13
Really? What is that? Well, I like to say that I do talk to my neighbors.

Philippa Hughes: 2:17
Okay, great.

Mark Clague: 2:17
Although I find it takes an effort these days, right? You don't just see everybody. So we actually have a pretty tight neighborhood association, and we have a party every year where everybody hangs out. But you have to make the effort to do it now. It doesn't seem to be something that's happening. But what's your story?

Philippa Hughes: 2:34
Okay. I have so many little things I want to tell you, because you're right. It Because there's this great book by Robert Putnam, the guy who wrote Bowling Alone, but then he wrote a new book called The Upswing. But he talks about the degradation of our social infrastructure. And so when we don't have social infrastructure, we literally don't even see each other. We've geographically self-sorted. We're just not physically in each other's spaces as much as we used to be. So I wonder if we literally just ran into each other more often. Maybe that would help with our connections. I don't know, but he seems to think so. Okay, my great story is, so you know in the exhibit, every week we have a dinner with eight people from across the political spectrum. And I guide them, very loosely guide people through a conversation, using the art as a way into the conversation. So one evening, this woman came and she said that she was physically, like she was afraid for her physical safety because she lived next door to somebody who flew Trump flags And she'd never spoken to that neighbor in 10 years of living next to him. And because she became increasingly afraid of him, but had never even spoken to him. So she expressed this fear. And somebody at the dinner said, well, you know, I voted for Trump. And are you afraid of me after we just had this amazing conversation? And, you know, so I think she kind of filed that away. Like, oh, my gosh, I guess I'm not afraid of you. So a little while later, she said that she saw the neighbor in the front yard doing yard work. went to him and said, hey, we should exchange phone numbers in case one of our houses is burning down. And he immediately agreed. And she said she was surprised that he didn't sneer at her. I was like, oh, why would he sneer at you? You're trying to help, but you know, whatever. So then they exchanged phone numbers. Then a little while later, they have a community music event outdoors. You bring your lawn chair. So she was sitting out there with her lawn chair and he came out with his lawn chair and he'd never come to one of the events before wow and she waved him over and he sat next to her and she said they didn't have like a deep meaningful conversation but they would you know be like oh hey that was a good song you know something like that like they just sat next to each other this was a man she and who knows what else you know that was that was a couple months ago when she first made that first contact and i mean that is relationship building it takes multiple contacts over a long period of time. So that's another thing I think about with my dinners is I don't think I'm going to, we're not going to become best friends in one dinner, but it's the beginning. It's the taking away a little bit of fear just enough so that she could have that first contact.

Mark Clague: 5:25
Yeah, no, that's so insightful, that fraying of just our social connection, our sense of just that the people with us are part of our community, right? And that we're connected to them. So I get totally that These conversations need to happen. We need to build these bridges. But what does art have to do with this? Like, how are you using art? You're a social sculptor, so you're creating these kind of relational experiences. But, you know, I think generally speaking, you know, we think of news and politics as a very separate thing from art. Art might, you know, in my work, certainly as an art historian and music historian, you know, the sort of political power of art is what is really interesting to me. But you're actually creating an experience throughout art. So can you describe sort of how that works and what's the art part of this?

Philippa Hughes: 6:10
Yes. Good question, Mark. I'm so glad you asked. Well, I think when we say the word art, we usually mean things like the stuff that hangs on the walls or a music performance or a theatrical performance, you know, something sort of, I don't mean to say traditional, but just...

Mark Clague: 6:32
Yeah, something has an audience and the audience comes and experiences it, but they're not really part of it per se, right?

Philippa Hughes: 6:36
right. They have this passive experience. They sit back in the dark auditorium or they have to walk through the museum very quietly. You'll get shushed if you talk too loudly. So what I'm trying to create is something that is an expansion of what the word art means. And that's why I call myself a social sculptor. I'm creating social sculptures. And the sculpture is the space within which these dialogues and conversations and relationships can happen. And the space itself is the artwork. But the The conversations complete the artwork. And the space is designed to encourage the kinds of conversations that can lead to stronger relationships or even the relationship to begin in the first place.

Mark Clague: 7:19
So in your work, what we might call the audience or the observer is actually part of the art.

Philippa Hughes: 7:23
Yes, they're actually part of the artwork. And it's not to say, oh, everybody's an artist. It's just you're just part of the artwork. But in a way, I mean, you're part of the creation process too. But there is real social science research that I think about when I'm creating these spaces. For example, there's a lot of research being done around the feeling of awe. And when you create a sense of awe in people, they feel more connected to humanity. They feel a sense of smallness, but in the sense that small because they're part of the fabric, something big and important. And so that's what I tried to do with this exhibit at UMA. I've tried to create this space in which when people enter they gasp where they're like oh my gosh like where am I and that happens every single time I sit in there all day long when I'm around Ann Arbor and I hear people over and over literally gasping when they come in like they've

Mark Clague: 8:23
like this well there's these beautiful flowers but it's sort

Philippa Hughes: 8:27
wall surface is covered with these flowers so the flowers were created by an artist named Louise Jones who is Detroit based she is does these giant floral murals all around Detroit, but now she's doing them nationally. I think she's doing them internationally right now. She's amazing. And so when I had this idea like, I want to cover the walls with the 50 state flowers, we found her to paint each of those 50 state flowers and then digitized it and then turned it into this wallpaper and made the flowers big. Really big, yeah. Really big. So it gives a sense of just... That's one of the elements of creating a sense of awe.

Mark Clague: 9:08
big. Now, is the Michigan flower, is that the cherry blossom? The cherry blossom. Yeah, okay.

Philippa Hughes: 9:14
I'm trying to learn all the flowers because I want to maybe do a little trivia night and test people. And plus, well, Michigan has students from all over the country, so I thought, oh, maybe there's a way we could play around with that.

Mark Clague: 9:26
So one of those researchers you're looking at is Jenna Bednar, who's one of our colleagues here at Michigan. And tell me how her work informs your piece.

Philippa Hughes: 9:34
I mean, I should have mentioned her work a first because her work is the foundation for this exhibit so she wrote a paper around flourishing and public policy governance and she says that essentially she says we need to reorient our public policy away from the transactional which is how we normally do it we measure people's productivity their outputs but we need to reorient toward the relational and apply relational thinking to making public policy which was you know we I mean I believe that to my core but I also think we need to apply relational thinking to everything in our lives so anyway so I've applied relational thinking to this exhibit like how do we create space for more relationship building so I'll get to the physics of the physical parts of that but also she says that there are four pillars of flourishing community dignity sustainability and beauty so the exhibit is built around those four four pillars so I've created conversation areas that is like it's like a living room basically multiple living rooms and a dining room and each area is oriented around one of those pillars and you know actually may I just back up to this idea of living room dining room because you know when I this exhibit is evolved from when I started inviting Trump voters to my house for dinner after 2016 because I was upset and I just wanted want to ask them questions. So there's a direct line from when those small dinners around my dining table and my home became large dinners in museums around the country. And then now they're back to being small dinners and basically a recreation of my home because I have a very colorful, art-filled home.

Mark Clague: 11:27
Are you going to put more flowers in your home now?

Philippa Hughes: 11:30
Well, actually, I think we should be selling this wallpaper and everybody can have these flowers in their home.

Mark Clague: 11:36
That's not That's a great idea. It is an inspiring space. I mean, just walking in. I know. I know. It's really exciting. So talk a little bit about these dinners. If someone's listening to this podcast, they can't fit into the dinner, right? They're trying to think about, how can I talk to people in my life? What kind of tips would you have that you've learned from these dinners? Unknown: Yeah.

Philippa Hughes: 11:58
One of the most important things that I've learned from these dinners is that you cannot throw facts and figures at people. In fact, there is research that says that if you start with facts and figures, you can actually push people further away from you into their ideological corner. You have to begin with your personal experiences, with stories, with yourself, not with something external. And in fact, I mean, that's becoming the basis for a lot of canvassing as well you know political canvassing just as an aside I did a little political canvassing this past weekend and they gave us this like orientation training and it was all about storytelling and like it actually the way it laid out like okay like share your experience ask curious questions like it's almost as if they were organizing one of my dinners like it's exactly how I would tell people to talk to somebody so Anyway, I thought that was kind of interesting. But not because- it's not about politics though. It's just this is human relationship. This is how we- we seem to have forgotten that this is how we're supposed to relate to each other. Like you say something and then I say something and then we share.

Mark Clague: 13:20
it. Well, and politics is not a great model for that, right? It really isn't. Because it's about shouting. It's about winning. Yep. Like I just- even the idea of flourishing itself just to have you say of that word, is so powerful because we usually think about my team winning and the other team losing rather than we're all flourishing together. And that, to me, really is what being a community is about. And it's interesting, too, how this has all shifted, I think, in my experience. So much of this is not local anymore. It's all this national. Everybody's worried about who the president is, but nobody's worried about who the mayor or the sheriff or the drain commissioner is. right? Whereas it's really in the community that you start to see what we really value. We want our community to come together to make a wonderful living space. But this focus on just every four years and just for this one leader is really, I think you have pointed this out, that it's sort of throwing us off just to focus on just the president.

Philippa Hughes: 14:18
If it were up to me, we would have a permanent installation in the museum that people, we would have these dinners all the time, not in the run-up to the election. I think I'm thrilled to be able to be part of it at this point. But it has to be all the time because democracy is really hard work. Relationship building is not, you know, it takes time, energy. And just doing it every four years for a couple months at a time isn't going to really get us anywhere. And I think that's another thing, though, I tell people about, you know, not trying to be less focused on this national politic and focus on the politics that actually affect your life every single day. You know, the road in front of you or The way the trash is picked up. Like... It's the local politics that really matter.

Mark Clague: 15:04
Right, absolutely. Well, and what are we going to do on November 6th?

Philippa Hughes: 15:07
Exactly.

Mark Clague: 15:08
No matter what happens on the 5th, we're going to be in a position where basically half the country feels that they've just been left out of the story.

Philippa Hughes: 15:17
Yeah.

Mark Clague: 15:17
And that's not a recipe for success. not. So much of what, you know, I think when I think of American democracy, so much of it is just an idea, right? It's just an aspiration to live together in this productive way, right? To have a democracy where we're taking taking care of one another. And that idea lives in these conversations, it seems like you're creating.

Philippa Hughes: 15:36
I think that's right. And so another sort of central question to the exhibit, and has been for basically the last eight years as I've been organizing these, is what does it mean to be American? And so we do get to this idea of what is America? It's this idea. Democracy is this idea that holds us together. And if we don't all buy into that idea, then it doesn't work because we're not I mean, we're not held together anymore racially or by language even. There is a lot more diversity happening. In fact, I often remind people at the dinners, the 2020 census showed us that our country is becoming more diverse because of immigration and interracial marriage. And so it's going to be a minority-majority country within the next generation if trends are going to go in the same direction as they have. They have been. And so we have to really rethink what this idea of America is and what this idea of democracy is and whether we're going to buy into it or not.

Mark Clague: 16:42
So when you ask this question to people, like, what is America, what do they say?

Philippa Hughes: 16:46
Well, it does bring up a lot of things. I bet, yeah. Well, you know, I have to admit, like, I do kind of focus a little bit. So what I try to do is model the kind of sharing that I expect of others. So I usually begin with my own American story because my family, my mother's side of the family, are immigrants, and they came to America not really by choice. They're Vietnamese immigrants who had to leave their country for fear of death, but they've truly achieved the American dream. And so I really think about people and how they think about what this American dream is we don't often have time to stop and think like, what is really the American dream? In fact, we don't usually even think, what is it to be American? But I think about it all the time because for our family, it was a long, hard road to becoming Americans. And so I think in some ways, I maybe, you know how like when you convert to a religion, you become like even a stronger- When you've had to work for it, yeah, it's meaningful. Yeah, you become more of the thing. I think like for many people in my family, They're super patriots because we had to work so hard for it. And I feel like a super patriot. I also see the things that we need to improve, but I also see what America gave to our family and what we were able to take and seize in a way. So anyway, so I feel that sense of promise and optimism, but also it means we have to keep improving all the time.

Mark Clague: 18:28
Yeah, I think of patriotism as a verb rather than a noun. you just are born with or you inherit, but something that you aspire to, right? And that actually that commitment to the idea of America is sort of what makes the country what it is. So you've done dozens and dozens of these dinners for eight plus years now. What do you see as an American? What are those people have in common that are coming from these two opposing sides of the political spectrum when you've met all these people and facilitate all these conversations? What do you think is the thing that they share?

Philippa Hughes: 19:04
That is such a hard question. I really struggle with that question because there's this really great book. I'm going to sidetrack your question just for a second, but there is this really interesting book. I cannot remember what it's called right now, but it's that one that says that there are 11 cultures in America. I don't know. It's kind of an older book. When I was traveling around the country, I went to Alaska, Texas Sioux City, Iowa, and how different all those places were, and how...

Mark Clague: 19:38
this is based on, like, the history, right? At least I remember...

Philippa Hughes: 19:41
Yeah.

Mark Clague: 19:42
Gosh, I should think of that book, too, but there is... Oh, there it is. We have an assistant. That's it? American Nations. Yes.

Philippa Hughes: 19:49
Yeah, because, like, you know, like, New Orleans had sort of that French cultural influence, Texas, that area, you

Mark Clague: 19:58
Mexico. I remember, like, New York and the Dutch and the fact they were cosmopolitan trading, you know, that they brought all right? Founded by religious, as a religious, you know, settlement.

Philippa Hughes: 20:09
Yeah. I'm doing a very bad job of, like, explaining this book, but you get the point. The point is, is, like, we have many different cultures that have come together to make this country, America. And so, you know, it is so interesting to me that, to try to find what the common thread is, I was thinking about, like, but, I don't know, I'll all I can do is kind of think about it from my own lens because it's very hard for me to think about it through other lenses. But when I've traveled overseas, people say to me, you're like the most American person. And what they mean is like, I'm always like super happy, like optimistic. And I always smile and you know, like Europeans never smile at each other, you know, or like I'll invite somebody over to my house for dinner. Who's a stranger, you know? And so it's that sort of like optimism of possibility that I do think is very American. And, And, you know, I think... Yeah, I think it's this sense of optimism. But the reason why I paused there for a second was because it is a little bit clouded right now because of the negativity that pervades the political discourse and the media discourse. And that's just, to me, not very American.

Mark Clague: 21:23
Yeah, that's interesting. But I really love that optimism is connecting people. But so many ways I feel like the things that are dividing us are actually things we all, like everybody wants to be safe everybody wants to be cared for everybody wants to be have a good you know good job to be able to be productive in the community and contribute to it you know people want to have happy children and you know thriving and you know there's actually so many fundamental things that we share and yet they get these wedge issues that seem to make us forget the sort of the things that we would desire in common like you know so it's to me what I think really is great about what you're doing is just connecting people as people.

Philippa Hughes: 22:07
As humans, because those things you described that are those fundamental things, those are human things. They're not American things. That's our shared humanity. But you're absolutely right. There's these wedge things that I call the polarization industrial complex.

Mark Clague: 22:24
Oh, wow.

Philippa Hughes: 22:25
has yet to take off, this phrase. Well, starting here. Starting here. Because there are people entities out there. I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but there are entities out there that are trying to keep us apart to gain more power, to gain more money. Yeah, I don't think it's a conspiracy. I don't think it's a conspiracy. I think it's actually happening.

Mark Clague: 22:46
It's politics.

Philippa Hughes: 22:47
Yeah, it's politics. And that's how you gain powers, to drive wedges between people. And so that's my goal, is to get rid of... We need to ignore those wedges. Why are we letting those people control us?

Mark Clague: 23:01
Yeah. And that's where I think getting involved is really important absolutely so not just sort of voting for politicians but getting involved in your community and doing things and I think that's that's really what I admire about what you're doing because you're doing something you're making something happen so thank you for for this work you're doing thank you well good well these kind of conversations are things we're hoping to keep going November 6th and beyond so thanks so much for being a guest on Creative Currents thank you music Creative Currents is a project of the University of Michigan Arts Initiative. Please subscribe to hear more great conversations with artists, scholars, and arts leaders from across the campus and across the globe. Send your comments and suggestions via email to creativecurrents at umich.edu. This episode of Creative Currents was produced by Mark Clague and Jessica Jenks, and our audio engineer is Audrey Banks. Our original theme music is composed and performed by Ansel Neely, a student at the University of Michigan School of Music, Theater, and Dance. To learn more about the University of Michigan's Arts Please visit our website at arts.umich.edu. Thanks for listening.